So I did a radio interview this morning that started with the host saying, “So, after six years it all came to an end, and the answer was... they all died in the plane crash and have been dead all along. So on the line we have Nikki Stafford to talk to us about whether or not that was a satisfying end to the show.” I think one of the pervading ideas out there is that they all died in the plane crash and the entire series was one giant cosmic dream or something. Apparently much of this is due to a final credit sequence of images of the fuselage lying on the beach, which look much, much worse for wear than it did back in season 1. But see, in Canada, where CTV only cares about the broadcast itself and doesn’t actually run the end credits the way you see them (full screen on black) but instead created their own so they can hawk Grey’s Anatomy or create their own lame promos for next week’s Lost episode, we didn’t actually SEE the wreckage. I had NO IDEA what people were talking about when I was being asked this question the next day, and the first time I heard about it was during a live interview where I just played along and came up with an answer for it, all the while thinking, “Huh?”
So I put out a note in the comments and asked if anyone had pics, and humanebean sent some through to me so I could see them (thank you, humanebean!!) So here, for the Canucks who didn’t get to see it, are the pics of the wreckage that Americans saw, causing some of them to think the final moment was an indication they’d all died in the plane crash:
So what is this? Proof that the plane actually crashed in 2004 and was obliterated on the island, killing everyone on board? No. They wouldn’t have spent six years building to one final image only to make it the penultimate image, followed by this. I think this is the wreckage as it sits on the island now: rusted and old. The fuselage that looks like it’s been burned WAS burned when the survivors lit it on fire. All of that stuff didn’t simply disappear: they used a lot of it for their huts, and then the rest of it just continued to sit on the beach. They couldn’t exactly carry a jet engine off and plop it in the woods to get it out of the way.
No. I believe that everything that happened on the island was 100% real. Everything we saw from Jack opening his eye in the pilot to Jack closing it in the final scene was real. Jack met those people, saved those people, interacted with those people, and lost some of those people. He really did leave the island a few months later, he really did return three years after that, he really did go to 1977, and everything actually happened. Christian said to him as he spoke to Jack in that scene near the end that it was real, that everything that happened to him was real. He said, “The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people.” The key word here was “LIFE.” Not the most important part of your limbo existence or of your afterlife. Of your LIFE. Those people helped shape Jack and ultimately led him to his own redemption. He believed in them, and they believed in him.
In the weeks and months to come we’ll debate what really happened then on that island, who Jacob really was, and why Widmore and Ben had that lifelong antagonism. But for now, all I have to say is that the island was real.
The sideways world wasn’t the afterlife, and it wasn’t real (Daniel referred to that in “Happily Ever After” when he actually explicitly said that world wasn’t real). It was a limbo world where, after death, they had to reflect upon their lives (remembering them first!) and realize what they’d learned, what was really important to them in the greater scheme of things... and why they were here. Kate says to Desmond at the beginning, “Why am I here?” And Desmond replies, “No one can tell you why you’re here, Kate.” Only she can come to that understanding. Desmond can help lead her to that place, but she needs to see for herself what happened.
That limbo place was one where each individual character went at some point after their deaths. They all died at different times – Kate probably lived to be a senior citizen, as did Sawyer... Hurely and Ben possibly lived for centuries – but when they died, they ended up in this place, spanning time, across time. Those moments of “seeing” that each one of them had? Those were personal and real to each one of them. Hurley had his revelation, Charlie had his, Sun had hers. Those happened to each one of them. But that scene at the very end (and this is my opinion, I really need to stress that, because if you took something different away from that scene then your take on it is just as valid as mine was) was the gathering of everyone to wave goodbye to Jack, to accompany him to his afterlife, his eternal existence. All of those people in the church were there for Jack because they meant something to him. If it were really all of them passing into the afterlife, then different people would be there (I mean, honestly, if Hurley were about to head through those doors, they would be held open by his beloved Ma, who would have said, “I love you, my Oogo” and given him a loving smack as he passed through). Kate was wearing a black dress on her way to the church, but once Jack opened the doors into the actual room, she was wearing an entirely different outfit. This is how she appears to him for eternity: the Kate he knew on the island, young, fresh-faced, and beautiful, the way she looked the last time he saw her before he left her on those flats with Sawyer. The people surrounding Jack in the church were there with him the day the plane crashed and changed his life forever. Maybe THAT is why Ana Lucia and Ben weren’t in there – simply because they were not on the beach when he first emerged and took those first few steps to the rest of his life, so to speak. (And I repeat: Walt was simply a technicality because the actor was too old to appear here as the kid Jack knew. UPDATE A few people have posted in the comments asking about Bernard and Penny. I think those are the two exceptions because Rose was the first person on the island that Jack had a long talk with, the first one who expressed this deep belief in something he thought was impossible, and Bernard is her constant, so it's important they're both there. And Desmond was the last person who led Jack to where he ended up, and Penny was his constant, so she had to be there, too.)
They didn’t all die in the plane crash. Some did, some died soon after, some died long after Jack, but in this final moment we saw Jack moving on. It was a moment that was being built up to from the very beginning. In season 1 when the Others hanged Charlie and Jack began punching on his stomach to revive him, Kate screamed at him to let it go. At the beginning of season 3 when Jack was in the Hydra cage and the faulty intercom button started crackling, he heard Christian’s voice saying, “Let it go, Jack.” And at the beginning of this season, when the plane hit turbulence in the sideways world and DIDN’T crash, Rose looked at Jack and said, “You can let go now.” And after finally giving up his hard-won guardianship of the island, and accepting that some people can help themselves and he’s done all he can, Jack stumbled out into the bamboo, lay down, and finally let go. And in that extraordinary moment he finally moved through those church doors into eternity, one that we can only imagine at this point, but one where he has finally found peace.
And THAT is why I loved the end of this episode.
208 comments:
1 – 200 of 208 Newer› Newest»I thought that last view of the island and the plane wreckage was meant to say, it's all still here, and this is the mystery future visitors to the island will have to solve. Our Losties met polar bears and a Dharma bus, future visitors will meet plane wreckage.
I'm a little tired already of nitpickers not being able to follow the breadcrumbs! Use your heads, people! Think! (That's not for anyone here, of course)
recitis: disease caused by piano recitals
Thanks, Nikki. It has really bothered me that people have made that leap of "they have always been dead" just because of a few stills at the end. I think these are the same people that have always thought this and wanted this to be there confirmation.
I viewed it as just a nice image montage of showing how it all started as a simple plane crash story. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all of the wreckage underwater thanks to the rising tide in season one? I believe this footage is just thrown in there as something nice to show how far the show has come in the end, not anything plot-wise. Christian even told Jack that everything that happened was real. I can't believe people think they died in the crash.
I love this latest analysis of yours, Nikki! It is helping me like the finale better, because after chewing on it for a day, I was beginning to feel "robbed" that they didn't answer certain mysteries (eg, Dharma, the Ben/Widmore war, etc.). Understanding that the final scene was for Jack - the end of his journey, and his trek to the afterlife - help me put the final scene in better perpective.
That said, I have to ask: what do you make of the fact that Rose and Bernard were NOT in the last scene in the church with him? This really surprised me. Rose, especially, since she and Jack seemed to have bonded on the island.
Rose and Bernard were in the Church scene at the end.
I agree with pretty much everything except for the church scene. Penny was there and she wasn't on the plane (or ever on the Island, actually).
Nikki, thank you also for your perspective on the plane wreckage images. As a US (west coast) viewer, this confused the heck out of me! It was accompanied by the sound of the ocean surf in the background, and indeed did mess in my head, making me question whether they all died in the initial crash. I wonder why ABC added that? Really, they just should have left the final image of Jack's eye closing as-is, and then had the final credits play on a black screen.
Thanks, Nikki, for making that clear - I was surprised to hear that some people thought that they'd been dead all along. Another common theme I've read is, "Well, they took the cop-out route - none of it really mattered." I found it to be completely opposite. With 20 minutes left in the show, I was frustrated: if sideways time was what happened if the island sank, then why was it so important that Jack restore the light? The sideways time didn't seem so bad - it didn't seem like hell had escaped and destroyed the world. What was the point of Jack's sacrifice? But the sideways time was NOT what happened if the island had been allowed to be destroyed. If Jack had not done what he did, the smoke/evil/whatever it was would have spread throughout the whole world. His sacrifice was real, and it meant something. Sayid's sacrifice meant something - he really did die to save the others' lives. They weren't all just "pretend" dying all the while knowing that it would really just allow them to pop into existence in an alternate timeline. There was only one timeline, and the things that happened in it mattered.
That said, I do think that the alt-timeline was Jack's personal "purgatory" or whatever you want to call it. That's why Kate was still a fugitive and why Sayid hooked up with Shannon and not Nadia. That's how Jack knew them.
I think Rose and Bernard were in the church.
Nikki great post and observations. I have to admit..it's one thing to not like a final...but one when of the characters says."some died before you some long after" and there is still this "oh all died in the crash huh" someone isn't paying attention.
I saw the debris field on my itunes download and one of the my thoughts was...gee look at all those footprints..look at the sorted items.
It was clear to me anyway..that this the empty camp but it was camp not just a crash site. It's just all the characters have moved on leaving behind the evidence of their time on the island.
@myselfixion: Rose and Bernard were there in the church?? Ok, I need to re-watch, then. Some other blogger commented on it as well and theorized that they were left out because like Ben, they had more things to "work out" before passing on.
And @hyperRevue: I took it that Penny was there because she "helped" Jack once they got off the island the first time. Remember Penny's boat, and how the Oceanic 6 hatched the "plan" of what they were going to tell the world once they got back to the mainland? Penny was part of that secret/plan before she and Desmond sailed off.
Thanks Nikki, for you clarification of that scene. And thanks for all the things that you have written. You are so spot on with everything. I always know when I read your thoughts that mine will be better understood. Of all the bloggers, you have always pinpointed the essentials. I loved that you were the one who said that the boy in the jungle was young Jacob. You have great insights. And, while reading this latest post, I cried yet again, and I thank you for that too.
i know , i love reading recaps of what they think about lost, but starting to hate the comments that they where already dead, im not clever but even i could figure out that they wasnt dead. i thinking maybe they should had had some flashes of the guys that lived past the island having long and full fitting lifes...
i like your way better about jack seeing what he was seeing, cause the sayid and shannon thing was doing my head in, but much better that way....
Target-Addict
I agree that Penny played an important part in Jack's life and her being there makes all the sense in the world.
I just don't think, as Nikki originally said, that "the people surrounding Jack in the church were there with him the day the plane crashed..."
I don't think the church was limited to just those in the plane crash.
As a great work of art (and Lost deserves that title... it is really amazing as cinema and film narrative) we must allow different interpretations. For me Jack & Co were alived in that island; but we can see it as a dream, as a weird out-of-body experience, as afterlife, and so on (as you said christians, muslims, atheists, buddhists,..., can assume Lost as something important to them). For me, the best way to see Lost is to see it as a wonderful myth... and it is crucial to a myth to have a story and lots of interpretations.
Thanks for your post Nikki! I was flabbergasted when I started hearing this "they're dead and they've always been dead" theory. It's all over the place!
I personally thought the show was pretty clear and the conversation between Jack and Christian gave you all you needed to understand what was happening.
I'm stunned that people weren't listening or believing what they heard. Typical fan reaction this season though. An answer is given and then many fans say, "No Really, what's the answer?"
And I agree with the others above that Penny, of course, should be at the church. She rescued the Oceanic Six for goodness sake!! People have short memories, I guess.
It's hard to "let go" this week. I am definitely in mourning and denial and all that. I loved these people like they were family and it's really hard to say goodbye. Glad to have this blog to come to......
Great analysis, Nik! For me I took it as the Losties being re-injected into the "Light" for the "Rebirth" phase of its cycle(remeber what Jacob's mother said:"Life, Death, Rebirth)
The fact that the Island was laying at the bottom of the sea was a big hint that this was the "Death" phase of its cycle.
The Light went out in existence and was in the process of a reboot, re-injected with the data of the survivors(love, friendship, and community) rather than the corrupted nature of man(see the "Original Sins" of brother against brother and parent vs child).
This is what John Locke probably saw when he looked into the "Eye" of the Island...
Nik - I simply don't yet have the confidence you have in what the church scene or the multiple awakenings mean.
Ben is a complex character, and I spent much of the series viewing him as a time-traveling vicious guardian angel to Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Sayid, and Hurley in particular. If you follow the Richard as #2 to Jacob logic, Hugo's #2 Ben would also not be heir to the Island protectorship, merely the stuart/regent/panchen lama.
So many of his actions only seem to make sense in this context:
- Willingly trapped in murderous Danielle's net and transfixed by her bolt;
- Submitting to torture and beatings in the Swan Hatch;
- Kate's pretty dress at brunch;
- "I want you to want to save me.";
- "Colleen, I want that boat!"
- The fertility project as a whole;
- Building the Hydra runway;
- Sending Juliet to kill loathsome Pickett to assure Kate and Sawyer's escape;
- Taking Jack's beating after only feigning to have Tom et al kill Bernard, Jin, and Sayid;
- Working so hard to kill all of Widmore's associates and get all the Oceanic 6 back to the Island
And so many more.
Ben staying outside the church is proof enough to me that he had to do all of those things to make sure that the crowd that just passed higher up and further in could all do so.
Ben could not have known what all would be required until it had all been done. It was not all done until Jack's eye closed as the Ajira flight left the island above him. The runway was not specifically to land Ajira westbound, it was to secure the escape clause.
Ben's panchen role continues and he must select the next island protector. His consciousness must travel back in time to recruit Juliet and be poised and ready for the crash of 815. The island still exists and must still be protected.
But what is the purpose of his LA X illusory existence? It has really no bearing on Jack. He is reconciled to his father, places others before him after temptation, nurtures Alex, defends Locke, etc. but this is all Ben-centric, and he does not pass on with Jack and retinue.
Sometimes I wish I did not have a job ;)
Loved your assesment. Thank you for breaking it down.
Another common theme I've read is, "Well, they took the cop-out route - none of it really mattered."
Personally I think the bigger copout would have been some sci-fi ending that joined the two worlds in such a way that everybody got a "happy ending" because they were never on the island. Because what else would join the two worlds or give meaning to the sideways if it wasn't an "afterlife waystation"
Coleman you called bang on right and really wish the nip pickers would think it through. the only other options was to have no sideways...and what...spend that time doling out answers to "who built the statue"
Lost didn't compromise..what happened happened and I appreciate that
Thanks Nikki. This is what I have stated in my blog post as well:
http://tinyurl.com/2caf9pv
It is very obvious due to certain key phrases, actions and events that the Key Characters did NOT die in the original plane crash.
If I had any criticism of the finale at all, it was that it seemed a little dumbed-down, tie-it-all-up-nicely. I am frankly kind of shocked that people didn't 'get' the ending...could they have made it more clear?
When a TV show ends, they typically show the empty set during the credits. To me, the wreckage footage is no different than that.
@Target-Addict: I love this latest analysis of yours, Nikki! It is helping me like the finale better, ...
Yes, T-A, me too. But I still feel “robbed” that so many plot threads were left hanging.
For those of you still struggling to understand the finale, the cartoon character “Queen Victoria” has been struggling since yesterday (Mon.) as well:<a href="http://www.gocomics.com/thenewadventuresofqueenvictoria/”>The New Adventures of Queen Victoria</a>
Nikki I think your interpretation is what the writers intended, but think you underestimate just how confusing the last 10 minutes were to people.
Yes, there is enough information to conclude (rightly, I think) that all the island events were real. But remember, the ending did also reveal that everyone is indeed dead now. That is pretty weird.
J: They’re all dead?
C: Everyone dies some time, kiddo. Some have been before you, some long after you.
That admission that they are all dead is a tough one to swallow. Viewers have to come to the conclusion that a whole lot of what they have been watching was a bunch of dead people “living” somehow in an unreal place. It’s not too surprising that some of them came to the conclusion that the Island was the unreal place, since that is where all the unrealistic magic was taking place.
In fact the title of your post is exactly wrong. It should be “Yes they are all dead. But they didn’t die in the plane crash.”
Good grief!!! Those set shots were just an homage to the original site of the chaos and where they lived for a while before heading to the caves and eventually the beach that would become their home.
I think anyone who thought they were all dead from the time of the original crash may have just been fearing some sort of cop out ending like that from the beginning and Christian's explaination to Jack was obscured by that belief.
I hope they all get it soon, because then they will see the true power of the sideways world and the ending in particular.
I think the final shot of the wreckage was a goodbye to the set in Hawaii. Had it been part of the show I would have thought differently - but since it was in the credits - I just saw it as a goodbye.
Can't write anything after reading that Nikkit except to thank you again for laying it all out so clearly. You've made me bawl my eyes out all over again.
@Coleman and LT McDi - I agree, the bomb resetting the timeline and creating the sideways might have made for anice sci-fi based explanation, but it would have rendered the REAL timeline - the one we have been folllowing for six seasons - useless. As much as I used to consider myself a "woman of science", I wouldn't have wanted Lost to end that way.
I like your analysis, but must disagree on the whole "it was jacks send off." I believe it was everyone's. John and Ben had their discussion and John forgave him. Ben also decided to not move on. I don't think they would make those decisions and have those discussions if it was just all for jack. I believe it was all of them moving on at the same time.
Oops. Did I just call you Nikkit?!
<a href="http://www.gocomics.com/
thenewadventuresofqueenvictoria/”>
The New Adventures of Queen Victoria</a>
Sorry, I don't know what's wrong with my link. (I seem to sometimes struggle with technology,as does Her Maj. During May 17-21, HMQV had the Justin Bieber virus infect Her Internets.) ;)
@ Annoyed screenwriter. I agree.
I don’t think the Sideways World was intended to be a gathering for Jack to move on, that it was from his perspective. I think it was for all of them.
J: Why are they all here now?
C: There is no now, here.
J: Where are we, Dad?
C: This is a place that you’ve all made together so that you could find one another. The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people. That’s why all of you are here. Nobody dies alone, Jack. You needed all of them, and they needed you.
If they all made it together, to find one another I think it is fair to say that the gathering was for all of them to move on. I think the group of people in the church were together because that is who everyone felt should be there, not just Jack.
Of course that reveals little flaws in the writing since Nikki is absolutely right that Hugo would’ve had his mom there and lots of other family members would be important to them. But that is the problem with writing a conclusion that invokes the deux ex machina, the afterlife and other supernatural things. By definition it CAN’T actually make sense, since the supernatural is a paradoxical, incoherent concept.
Very well said Nikki. I'm a bit surprised so many people made that leap in their minds - what Christian said was very clear and everything in the story pointed to only the sideways being after their deaths.
To me the wreckage was their way of saying that all these people are long gone, they have all moved on.
Yeah, I also think the idea that it was just Jack's sendoff and not everyone's is a point of interpretation (I'm pretty sure it was the sendoff for all those people), but otherwise, spot on.
I thought the resolution of the sideways timeline was fairly straightforward, and am very confused by the people who think they were all dead, always.
Yeah, I have to agree that it wasn't just for Jack. It was all of them, but the gathering was to move on together, or to help Jack understand and let certain of them move on knowing they helped some of the others see.
I think Rose and Bernard moved on, Locke wouldn't go without Helen, ALTHOUGH if you think about it, Helen left Locke and could very well just decide to not move on with him anyway. Etc Etc
Also, we have to remember that Des "broke the rules" (AGAIN) of "purgatory" by awakening everyone so we saw things happen that probably wouldn't usually happen.
Nikki I love your blog and have been following for years but never put in my opinion.
To me Lost will go down as the greatest show in television history. The first time I watched the finale with my family commercials and all I enjoyed it but didnt get emotional. It took me a couple minutes to understand what happened. But I came up with the same interpretation as you did.
I watched the next day with my girlfriend without the commercials and I cried the entire episode. I cried when sun and jin remembered and then when charlie and claire remembered and when sawyer and juliet remembered. I cried when jack died at the end but especially cried when ben apologized to locke and locke forgave him.
Last semester I wrote a term paper in world lit class comparing lost to the bible. I used your books as reference a sources as well as the bible. I compared ben and locke to cain and abel. I got an A on my paper.
Im glad lost had a spiritual ending. Did you notice when jack walks into the church office there are relics from every different type of religion. The stained glass windows had the symbols of all religions including christianity, judaism, buddhism to name a few. It was a clue that lost is just like any sacred text up to interpretation.
I will miss lost but absolutely loved the ending. Nothing will ever compare to lost.
This may have already been answered, but I wondered when Christian said that they created "this place," I assumed he was referring to the sideways timeline, but could he also have been referring to the church/Lighthouse Station below. Maybe they created the pendulum, etc. to draw everybody back together when it was time to 'move on'?
Thanks Nikki. Excellent interpretation of the finale. Like Target Addicted, it has also helped me find some "peace" with the finale.
Well personally I thought the sideways world was a reality split off by the atom bomb, that gave those who had sacrificed their lives "saving the world" a chance to remember and live out what they couldn't while in service of "good".
However, if it's all just a made up place, then clearly Claire and Charlie never actually get together or get a chance to "raise" Aaron, and ditto for Sun and Jin.
There was no need for the "big hug" ending at all in my opinion, they could've acheived all the same end points and still left the sci-fi aspects intact, instead we get this pseudo-Christian gate of heaven thingy, which overshadows the more interesting aspects of everyone's sacrifices.
I couldn't possibly be more disappointed.
Thank you, Nikki, for writing this.
I've been getting so frustrated with the people on most other blogs and message boards.
It's a constant barge of, "They all died in the plane crash!" or "It was all pointless!"
It gets posted over and over and over.
I've had to stay away from most sites because I just can't handle it anymore.
I did love your interpretation of the church scene, and your thoughts on that made me cry. Again.
I like the idea that it was all for Jack.
I had thought it was ALL of them passing through together, but after hearing your opinion, I believe you may be right.
But that, at least, is one scene that can mean many things to many people and still be right. :)
I don't know, I just felt that if the sideways world wasn't real, then there was an aweful lot of time spent on it, obscuring the actual events.
And having been a huge fan of Buffy from the day it first hit the air, I have to say that this finale doesn't even come close to comparing.
In Buffy you really felt the sacrifices of Spike and Anya. It really seemed to have impact, even if the world didn't know how close it came.
In this finale I feel like the meaning of everything was obscured by the "big hug" and boiled down to a trite religious ending.
By all means they should've had a perspective on Jack's afterlife, but to me the ultimate ending should've been a shot of Hurley and Ben watching as new people arrived at the island. This would've left the sense of continuity that already existed, ie the world still needs protection and new heros must arise to meet these challenges.
Essentially a huge bulk of the last season was "just a dream".
Didn't impress me in the series "Dallas" and doesn't impress me anymore today.
Hi there everyone,
I’m sorry if these questions have already been posted but I was hoping someone could elaborate on this:
-Isn’t it rather strange to have the exact same flight from Sydney to LA in the purgatory/sideways universe?? What is the purpose of this? Was it only to let us see what would have happened with the Losties if the exploding bomb would have sunk the island?
-Why was the island itself a part of the purgatory universe and why was it on the bottom of the sea?
-Aaron is born in the purgatory universe (which sounds kind of strange dont you think?). Does this mean he too had already died in the real world?
-How was Desmond able to switch from the real world/island to the purgatory world and visit all the losties that had yet to have died in the real world. Is this because of the non-existent time-flow that Christian mentioned?
-One final question: whatever happened to the strange woman who was with the others and translated Jack’s tattoos. She seemed real important back then.
Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts and Cheers from Amsterdam!
Matt.
I love your take on things, & I loved the finale, though I was a little confused during the last 10 minutes. It took further contemplation for me to really "get" what it all means (for me).
I don't know why people think they were all dead on the island. Jack said to Desmond, and Christian to Jack (don't remember the exact quotes)- What happened, happened. It mattered. It was real.
With all the blog reading I've done in the last 2 days, I'm surprised I haven't yet come across the phrase, "Live together, die...together."
well I was a huge Buffy fan too but Spike's sacrifice didn't mean a whole lot when he turned up in Angel and then eventually got his body back or whatever.
and therein lies the point...Sun and Jin died in that sub...they didn't come back..they didn't raise Ji Yeon in the sideways..they saw their own deaths...what happened..happened.
That's been one of the basics in Lost and they stuck to it. They didn't cheapen previous stories by making a death inconsequencal because guess what folks...the island didn't matter.
As for Hurley and Ben watching new arrivials...that might have been cool but Lost really was in the end..Jack's story..we start with him and we end with him.
I think that's as it should be...
@Matt:
-Isn’t it rather strange to have the exact same flight from Sydney to LA in the purgatory/sideways universe?? What is the purpose of this? Was it only to let us see what would have happened with the Losties if the exploding bomb would have sunk the island?
It was mainly a dramatic device meant to mask the true nature of the Sideways world, and suggest without-saying-so that the Sideways world was created by Jughead and not something else (in this case, a groupthink-created waiting room for the afterlife).
The in-story reason, I suppose, is that the groupthink created a world very close (but not exact) to the real world, one which all those people were still on flight 815 in 2004.
-Why was the island itself a part of the purgatory universe and why was it on the bottom of the sea?
Again, to further mask the true nature of the flash sideways universe and to spurn speculation.
In story, I suppose you could argue, that while their time on the island was important, most of the 815ers, after death, felt negatively enough about the island to create a world in which it sat on the bottom of the ocean.
-Aaron is born in the purgatory universe (which sounds kind of strange dont you think?). Does this mean he too had already died in the real world?
Like Christian said, everyone dies at some point, so yeah, Aaron had died, just (most likely) at a later point in the real world time then Jack. But because their time on the island was so important to them, they crossed over as they appeared when on the island, which means Aaron gets to enter the afterlife looking like a baby.
-How was Desmond able to switch from the real world/island to the purgatory world and visit all the losties that had yet to have died in the real world. Is this because of the non-existent time-flow that Christian mentioned?
Yep; while time flowed as we know it in the Sideways world, the world itself existed outside of time (there is no now here) so even people that hadn't died yet in 2004-2007 were part of it.
-One final question: whatever happened to the strange woman who was with the others and translated Jack’s tattoos. She seemed real important back then.
Like many of the plots from early seasons, especially dealing with the Others, it turns out she wasn't as important as first suggested, and was left in the background of the story.
Anonymous said: "... Isn’t it rather strange to have the exact same flight from Sydney to LA in the purgatory/sideways universe?? What is the purpose of this? Was it only to let us see what would have happened with the Losties if the exploding bomb would have sunk the island?..."
That's why I thought it was your classic split/multiple reality, ie Daniel Farraday succeeded, and we were seeing the real results.
Instead it's a pre-heaven consensus non-reality?
Seems a cop out to me. For choices to have meaning they have to have real consequences, but if it IS a pre-heaven type staging place, then one's ability to impact people around you would obviously have to be limited in some fashion, ie, it's less meaningful because the full impact of free will cannot be felt or is contained somehow.
This is confirmed by what Eloise has to say about "the rules".
"...well I was a huge Buffy fan too but Spike's sacrifice didn't mean a whole lot when he turned up in Angel and then eventually got his body back or whatever..."
Yeah well Josh really buggered that one eh? That said, I take each show separately, and never really liked "Angel" anyways. LOL
I loved this analysis Nikki. Thank you so much for all your blog entries and insights over the last couple years. I have loved coming on here and interacting with other Losties.
This is a great write-up Nikki and I think it's clear you have your head wrapped around this thing better than I but I think they were all going through - why would Desmond say "She's not ready" about Anna Lucia if it was just a send off? Oooh, maybe she wasn't ready to even see the church. Ah, OK. Why would Ben say, I'm staying out here - if they were just there to push Jack through, then they could've gone in, no strings attached.
Yeah well Josh really buggered that one eh? That said, I take each show separately, and never really liked "Angel" anyways.
Josh Holloway? He was in the first episode of Angel.
If you mean Joss, I'll take all the Spike I can get. Besides, Spike's sacrifice meant something because there was no reason for him to think he'd come back. Any more than Buffy's sacrifice in season five meant nothing.
Over at "Eye M Sick" (nice take off from Desmond's mural, Bigmouth (okay not named by me) wrote a very interesting view of what was happening in the afterlife. His take off would retain the value of the island, while allowing the character based focus in the final episode. (I'll expand on his premise below).
The first assumption is the writers haven't broken with the scie-fi genre they began in and in which they embedded LOST. The solution to the final episode comes from finding the textual reference for LOST, and that is Solaris, especially the two films made of the book (the point about Solaris is in the blog, go read it).
Solaris ends with Kelvin in a sort of eternity formed by the Solaris entity, in which he can interact with his dead wife, Rachael(in Tarkovsky's film, his father). For so long in LOST, we've seen the island as a sort of Solaris entity, and we've had hints at how it worked by reference to Bioy's novel The Invention of Morel (I and many people have made this point). In LOST the island (Source) has been collecting the memories (even perhaps the souls) of the people on the island. Like Solaris it is able to reproduce those who died away form the island.
It may not sit right with some that the afterlife we saw Jack and everyone meet in was a product of the Source (indeed is inside the Source). But it makes sense with Juliet exploding the bomb, that the energy allowed the creation of this alternate universe inside the Source (strangely it is an eternal timelessness within the fabric of time; a very neat paradox). We might say the Source needed this energy to form this alternate universe, and it helped to manipulate the Losties to this end. Thus, when Chrisitan opens the church doors at the end and all we see is light, we are looking directly at the Source (not heaven in any Judaeo-Christian sense).
But what about souls? As in Solaris, Kelvin interacts with his dead wife (dead on earth from suicide). Solaris has recreated her from Kelvin's mind. LOST seems to say we are really the sum of our memories (that is the little light in each of us that was a part of the Source that Mother told her boys of). When Jack died, Jack died (dead is dead). But his memories were retained in the Source and given form as a new Jack (go back to Bioy's novel and see what the author says about the perfect reproduction being also a reproduction of the soul). That is why the people in the church are the ones who were either on the island or were memories in those who lived on the island (we can then dispense with every ghost seen as a manifestation of Smokie). (It also means that those who left the island, left to live lives in the real world and eventually die; but the island has their images, their memories which it brings to life and creates in this alternate world?afterlife).
continued ...
Such a genre keeping (rather than breaking) reading of the final episode returns the island to a more central role in the story, while still retaining the importance of the characters in the narrative and mythology. I might even say it goes to explain the motivation of the island, as we understood Solaris. It also retains some elements of Eastern religions, that what survives us is not our identities wrapped up in a soul, but our karma--in the island story that karma finds manifestation in the memories made flesh in the light of the island's Source.
Now this may not sit well with a lot of people, who might just say this is overanalysis. But from a narrative point of view, it allows consistency in the story (indeed, we have to keep faith with our earlier reading of LOST, rather than just abandon everything we've come to struggle with). It also helps explain many of the questions we still have about the island--some other mysteries we can still work out. And it fits the theme of "perspective"--do you see the Afterlife as heaven in the traditional religious sense; or do you postulate the Afterlife as fitting within the sci-fi basis of the story? How you answer this question leads to your liking or disliking of this reading. However, in the end, we arrive at the same place, a focus on character and the meaning of living together.
Nikki, thanks for that beautful essay on the meaning of the ending. I agree with everything you said, but I have to admit that as an American viewer (and one from Cleveland who had a chaotic first viewing experience), I initially interpreted the ending credits scene in the way you say other Americans did. However, I saw a commenter on a blog (possibly yours) post the next morning that the tennis shoe in the scene preceding the credits is key to realizing that six years have passed since the initial crash. Apparently the tennis shoe is white in the pilot and now it is worn. I apologize if others have pointed this out above, but I must get some work done today! ;)
Thanks to you and all of the commenters on your site for helping me to come to a better understanding of the meaning of so much that happened in the final episode because I have come to really love it, too. Upon rewatching it last night, I heard some important lines that were lost to me (no pun intended) during the poorly broadcasted version I saw the first night. Putting those key lines together with all of your comments made this an incredible viewing experience -- a true gift given all that I have invested in watching and reading about this show over the last six years.
Nikki, I haven't posted anything on the Finale yet because I wanted some time to digest it all.
I admit for a SPLIT second I was confused when they showed the plane wreck but then I immediately realized, hey wait, it's already over, the LOST logo was the last image and this was just showing how far we've come. It was bittersweet to me. But then I immediately knew that a lot of people would misinterpret it. And that's what happened It's all I've been hearing on the radio, etc.
So anyway, thank you thank you thank you for posting your thoughts. I've read all the posts this week and they keep getting better. By far, today's is the best interpretation for the finale for ME. I plan on linking to it later on Facebook, since people keep asking me about it there.
I wish I could hug you!! :)
Jazzygirl said...
Nikki, I haven't posted anything on the Finale yet because I wanted some time to digest it all.
I admit for a SPLIT second I was confused
I had the same reaction. I had to think about what it all meant and it did cross my mind that it was all "a dream" but remembered that Darlton had said they would not make the ending a "cheat" by making it just a dream. As with a lot of things in Lost, you need to step back, digest and think things through. And then, the beauty of Lost, you come up with your own interpretations of what it means to you. That's what I love about Nikki and this blog too. It gives all points a view a place to be discussed and debated. I think the series was Jack's voyage to redemption, mixed with people that helped him shape who he was in the end and it was real. He learned and grew from his interactions with his fellow Losties. And that is why they were there to "see him off"
I started to tear up again reading this... Why am I so emotional this past few days?...
I read about the closing credits where it showed the wreckage of the plane and some of the blogs about but never actually saw it at the end of the episode. Thanks for posting the pix.
I totally agree with you on this.
"...As for Hurley and Ben watching new arrivials...that might have been cool but Lost really was in the end..Jack's story..we start with him and we end with him..."
While I agree Jack is a "hero" and obviously a huge part of the story, ulimately I think that he is but one player in a larger contextual reality. There was just too much other important content unrelated to him for me to think of him as the "main" character.
Besides, if the other candidates were just place holders, then I feel that free will takes a hit and you end up with a fate motif that is somewhat derivative.
I felt the sense of continuity of the "real" world was over-ridden and obscured by the sideways world as it was portrayed in the end.
The characters were all amazing, but for me they are defined by their free will choices, and if real life doesn't have an over-riding purpose and meaning, then essentially there's no difference between reality and a consensus based "sideways world" at all IMO.
So to me it's VERY important that the real world and the island matter.
Otherwise it feels like a god-generated set-up. For the world to have meaning god has to be like Jacob and stand back and let things happen, even if he has influence.
I don't know if any of you have seen this, but Kristin Dos Santos from e! online had an interesting take on the "light" botn on the island in in the church scene.
The link is here: http://ca.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b182506_lost_redux_see_you_in_another_life.html
This is what she says:
"The Sideways World Was a Passage to "The Light"
Charlie's (Dominic Monaghan) iconic question from the very first episode—"Guys, where are we?"—came full circle tonight, as Jack Shephard (Matthew Fox) asked that very Q of his father, Christian Shephard, in Lost's epic final scene.
Jack: Where are we?
Christian: This is a place you all made together so you could find one another...Nobody does it all alone. You needed them and they needed you.
Jack: For what?
Christian: To remember and to let go.
Obviously, precisely "where" these characters were going will be long debated, but for what it's worth, here's my take:
Damon and Carlton told the truth when they said the Island was not purgatory. It wasn't, and what happened there happened, and everyone was alive.
However, the Sideways world was a postdeath place of limbo where Jack was waiting until he was ready to "let go" and cross over to the Light, which is basically Lost's form of heaven.
The Losties who appeared in the church at the end all died at different times in different places (some much later on) but came together in that space to help Jack move on.
But it wasn't only about helping Jack. The Losties all gathered in the church to cross over to the Light because Jack saved that very Light when he rescued the Island. As we were told this season, if the Light "goes out here, it goes out everywhere" and "everyone you love would simply cease to be." If the Light had gone out, the Losties could never have reconnected with their loved ones again. But because Jack saved it, they all get to live blissfully ever after. The (brilliant) end."
I'd love to hear your thoughts about her opinions.
redeem147 said: "... If you mean Joss, I'll take all the Spike I can get..."
Thanks redeem, I did indeed mean Joss Whedon.
Spike was one of my all time favorite characters, which is why I was annoyed that he joined the train wreck on "Angel".
To be fair though, Joss couldn't have had an easy time writing for a network so eager to 86 the series at every turn.
Nikki, about your comment about Kate: Kate was wearing a black dress on her way to the church, but once Jack opened the doors into the actual room, she was wearing an entirely different outfit. This is how she appears to him for eternity...
Interesting theory, but wouldn't it have been more impactful, then, if everyone in the church looked like and was wearing their crap-clothes from the island times? So Kate in her bloody gray t-shirt and jeans, Hurley in a baggy t-shirt, Ben in his khakis, etc?
I have decided to stay away from most other blogs and, to be completely honest, I am finding myself scrolling through a lot of the comments on this blog without reading them...looking for familiar names and long-time readers. I can't relate to people who think that everyone died in the initial crash or that everything that happened didn't matter.
Of course, everything mattered! I do live in Canada but I saw the plane wreckage at the end on the channel I was watching. It simply made me get very sentimental thinking about what a long journey everyone had gone through on the island - I never once even thought that it meant they died in the crash. I can't believe that anyone who has truly been a fan for 6 years could think that.
I will admit that I do have some quibbles with the ending (mostly about why Ben didn't go inside) but I can live with them. I think Darlton did an amazing job of cluing everything up at the end and leaving enough unanswered questions for us to mull over for years to come.
Thanks for the Post Nikki! I've been thinking a lot about the church scene, and if this was a Jack-specific send off, or if it was for everyone.
I'm leaning towards it was for everyone. Like Christian said "This was a place that you all created....", Locke and Ben had the opportunity to reconcile, and Desmond confirmed with Eloise that Daniel wouldn't be making the trip yet (maybe not ready like Ana-Lucia?) Also, I somehow feel better thinking that this epic scene (and therefore the series?) was for everyone, not just about Jack.
I'm struggling with the "everyone theory" because if it was truly for everyone, Ji-Yeon and Charlie (Desmond and Penny's son) would absolutely have been there. I can come up for reasons for anyone else's absence, but not those two. If the send off was only for Jack, then it makes sense for those two not to be there, as he never met them.
I'm struggling... could it be that the send off was truly for everyone, and we just saw it through Jack's eyes? Maybe in Penny and Desmond's eyes the same event was occurring with Charlie on their knee?
Anyone have any guesses to help me out?
Thanks!
gosh darn it this is what happens when I get on a plane and cannot get an internet connection!
As the resident Lost looney tunes fan in my circle, I got this question as well. THEY LIVED!
One thing I took away that was slightly different was that we were seeing this from Jack's perspective, but much of the sideways had nothing to do with Jack. As Christian said, THEY created this, and so this was for all of them, not just Jack. BUT because we are seeing it from his perspective, it is his dad who shepherds them through, and he gets to sit in front with his love, etc. Were this from, say, Hurley's perspective, I bet they would all be there still, but Hurley would be up front with Libby, and, as you say, his MA would be opening the doors. But this was definitely a group construct.
Nikki your description is very good and so is all the discussion here - but I still have some questions......
If the purgatory world is a staging place for after you first die before you move on .....(to wherever you move to) then why are people's lives so different there.
In the purgatory world -
- why does Jack have a teenage son?
- why is the mother of that son Juliet?
- so has Jack been in the purgatory world for nearly 20 years so as to conceive his son?
- John was flying his plane and there was an accident - so again there is history in it and events taking place before we see them
- Daniel's surname is Widmore and he is a musician not a scientist...
and these are only some of the questions that don't seem to me to fit with the parallel world being an intermediate world
surely it could also be an out and out parallel universe, where everyone's lives are similar but not totally different
how do people in the purgatory world have flashes of the island world coming back to them - have they forgotten it because they have been living their alternate lives ?
how does Desmond seem to know to get them all together in the church - is it something to do with having been in the energy stream in the 'golden light' cave?
or maybe it really was a bit of a con - for the writers to realise that we wouldn't like so many people to have been separated from their loved ones and die unpleasant deaths? Maybe the parallel world was a way to give us a set of happy endings.
What was the white light - moving on - or just sunlight through the church doors?
we have so much evidence for a parallel universe - but then that leaves much of what Christian and Jack talked about to be inconsistent.
I think we need Carlton and Damon to explain it for us. there is the upcoming Lost Encyclopaedia to be published later this year.
Or maybe they just never will explain it. It might be one of those things that for them it all seems to be straight forward because they understand it and don't realise that they haven't quite given us enough information?
Or did they want it to be ambiguous so that we could each interpret in a way that suits ourselves?
I personally thought the end was quite well explained. It was a real twist of event, becasue most of us thought that the flashsideways was an alternate reality created becasue of them destroying the H-bomb. Turned out it was limbo, with all the characters living with there true desires, regrets, redemption coming to life.
So basically the alternate world added nothing to the actual storyline of lost, it was a very smart tool the writers came up with to A) confuse us all B)to bring back familiar places C)resolve all the emotional bits and loose ends because it couldn't have been so on the island
Leaving the Alt world aside. I think Nikki that it's time we start to connect the dot and try to resolve the unanswered questions ourselves. Eg. the temple, dharma initiitave, ben's and charle's RULES, the statue, jacob's cabin, why locke was the loophole, etc.... I think we have enough information now to try and summarise the whole chronological story of the show.
The character resolution in the sideways world was great, even though I detested the "consensus heaven reality" cop out, but without an overriding sense of continuity at the end by showing what happens with the island (it was a main charcter in my view), it falls flat for me.
The island and the reality it helps protect metaphorically represent the continuity of life. That life continues even after one's death and is/was worthy of protecting for its own sake is what gives their choices meaning.
So it can't be JUST about the characters, because if their choices had any meaning they had to have died FOR something meaningful in and of itself.
Little MO: BINGO. If the sideways world ISN'T a real alternate reality, then the writers REALLY went out of their way to fool people.
And then the big question becomes WHY?
Nothing was gained by this in my opinion. They could've kept the sideways world as a real alternate reality and STILL had their "big hug" moment replete with meaning and spiritual subtext, without having to be so damn prescriptive.
That's why I call this the pseudo-Christian cop-out. This show had international and multi-religious flare, but ended up in a church pushing the heavenly gates.
LAME.
I believe Penny was in the church because she had rescued Jack and helped cover up for the return of the Oceanic 6. I don't know....I am NOT loving the ending. Your recap and viewpoints help, but I still have WAY too many questions...still ruminating just like the cows!
When it first ended on the eye I was disappointed. I couldn't believe that was it. I felt like it was the worst ending. But I think I was in denial. I was more disappointed that it was over. No more new episodes to discuss and theorize over. No more glimpses of these characters whom I had grown to love. And I was upset because I felt like Jack was cheated. I have liked Jack from day one. (Don't get me wrong there are many episodes where I wanted to slap him). I was hoping that he would find happiness. That he would be fixed. I loved seeing him with David and was so sad when I found out that was not real. But thinking about it for the last two days - and I have been thinking about it constantly - I realized that he was fixed. He was happy. He got to be the hero. He got to be the one who saves everyone. He got to fix the island. And the look on his face in the church, the pure joy he radiated, that did it for me.
I loved all the flashbacks throughout the episode. I loved seeing old faces. I loved that everyone was with the ones they loved. (I agree about Shannon and Sayid- that stuck in my craw. Maybe Sayid was the one for Shannon that turned her life around - he saw more than the shallow vain rich girl. Or maybe it was with her he felt like a good person. I know, grasping at straws). The acting in this episode was incredible - Charlie and Claire, Sun and Jin, Ben and Hurley, Sawyer and Juliet, Jack and Kate, Desmond, Locke....they all had their moments.
And the moment between Jack and Kate on the rock. Heartbreaking. I am not a shipper and who she choose did not matter to me but that moment felt right. The way he said I love YOU to her. Beautiful. And when she said "I have missed you so much" at the end, I lost it.
Thank you Nikki - this is the first blog I have ever read regularly and commented on. It took me awhile to start - I am in awe of you and all of your regular followers and your insightful comments! I have enjoyed reading what everyone has had to say, I have laughed out loud many times (awesome Haikus!)
So what is our next show?
Great post Nikki, it brought all of the emotion back. I shook during the entire episode, but the tears rolled during Sawyer & Juliet's "awakining". I think what you take away from the finale is based on your own personal beliefs. For me it showed how much the characters meant to one another regardless of what happened on the island. I think that their struggles on island is what made them realize that it was the most meaningful time in their lives.
No one has mentioned the obvious footprints around the wreckage in one of the pics. To me it shows Nikki is exactly right and is what I kind of figured all along. They only showed it to tell us how IT has now become part of the island's mythology and the story of that wreckage is the only story of this island we saw. There were things before and will be things after that will be stories to be told, this was just one of those.
Coming in to work yesterday that was the question I was asked immediately by 3 of my coworkers: So, was the Island real?
To which I gave an emphatic YES! which made the 2 that watch the show sigh in relief and immediately begin to put things together concerning the ending.
The 3rd said, hmm... I'm gonna have to borrow those.
I thought it was clear that only the AfterFlashes were not "real", but I guess a lot of people were concerned/confused about it. thanks for laying it out in such a clear way. :)
My understanding was that the sideways world was purgatory. They all got there at different times, and as you said helped usher Jack in to the afterlife.
Regardless, it was beautiful, heartbreaking and moving. Thanks for the re-cap(s)
Its amazing how many people popped out for a toilet break during the closing minutes isn't? Then came back and made up there own ending. Oh well, back to by the numbers cop shows and soulsapping reality tv.
Not seen anyone mention this anywhere (haven't read through all the comments, so apologies if they have)but when they all 'ascended to the wherever' I couldn't help but think of the light at the centre of The Island. Could this be where all souls end up? Both good and bad? And why the smoke monster was able to take on the form and memories of dead people? And why the souls of those who have yet to find rest haunt The Island?
I agree with most of what you say, Nikki, but I do think this WAS a reality of sorts, the Losties just moved up from one to next next and onwards. In a way it was a progression from flashback/forward/time travel which reflected Minkowski's spacetime theory. everything is happening at once, not just in time but also in realities.
Great comments everyone!
I did have a terrifying half-second where I thought the whole show was a kind of Purgatory, but when Christian started explaining, it became clear to me. I think some people proposed an island-as-Purgatory theory in season 1 (especially after Jack's we all died comment in Tabula Rasa) and jumped to the conclusion that this was what the writers were trying to tell us.
I agree with zoeart about the wreckage: " zoeart said...
I think the final shot of the wreckage was a goodbye to the set in Hawaii. Had it been part of the show I would have thought differently - but since it was in the credits - I just saw it as a goodbye."
And Teebore LOL @ waiting room for the afterlife, I've been using that phrase too!
Wow, lots of new people on the blog for this finale recap, congrats Nik :) I too find myself having this conversation with several friends who are LOST fans.
I don't see how you would get that Island never happened because of the shot of the wreckage. Christian gives a pretty explanation, sideways Jack is affected by what happens to Island Jack (ie, the cut on his neck), Hurley tells Ben he was a good #2 (which Jack would know nothing about since he wasn't around for any of Hurley's reign) and there is a shot of Jack watching his friends escape on the Ajira flight right before he dies. Why even show the Ajira flight leaving if none of this is real to begin with?
I agree that the shot was more of a "look how far we've come in 6 years" kinda thing. From wreckage to time travel, to Dharma, to Jacob and Smokey, all the way back around to Jack lying in a pile of bamboo.
I didn't get all the answers I wanted but it doesn't take away from the genius of the show. If they had answered everything would we still be talking today?? I don't think so.
@LittleMO
Here's my interpretation of why in LIMBO (let's all refer to it as limbo plz :P) their lives are very diferent.
I'm muslim and we beleive that everyone would end up either in hell or heaven. And i think everyone knows how that works. if you're a bad person with many sins then obviously you'd end up in hell.
But what if someone was so sorry for thier sins and wanted to redeem themselves? then of course they wouldn't be thrown in hell, but will be given the chance to redeem themselves. we believe this is achieved through a transition between death and judgement day. that transition is a very mild version of the torture you'd excpect in hell called "life after death.
Now i don't want to bore you with more information, but basically the same thing is happening the characters of lost. After thier death they are reliving thier lives in a place where they are reediming themselves.
Jack felt he was a bad son to his father therefore he was given a chance to be a good father to his son. Ben knew all the horrible mistakes he had made to locke and was reliving a life where he was friends with him same thing with alex. Kate i guess felt that she was guilt enough to be on the run for her crime so she is yet again living the same life.
Add in the lost rules to this whole thing.
The only way for them to move on was to be united to the people who have had an impact on thier lives. So obviously they would all "start" remembering thier original lives when they all met each other on flight 815, nd once they all remembered they would move on to "heaven"
If there's one thing that bothered me, it's that we all started using the term "flash sideways" when the producers introduced it in the buildup to season 6. So we all assumed it was a world without the crash of flight 815, but we made that assumption because the producers of the show told us to. And then it turns out it was a misdirection.
I liked the ending alot more than most people seem to, based on reactions, but that WAS a dirty trick to play on the fans. It's like telling someone they will never forget something, and then saying, "Well, if you remember something it's because it was memorable". No, it doesn't work that way.
@The Shout:Not seen anyone mention this anywhere (haven't read through all the comments, so apologies if they have)but when they all 'ascended to the wherever' I couldn't help but think of the light at the centre of The Island. Could this be where all souls end up? Both good and bad? And why the smoke monster was able to take on the form and memories of dead people? And why the souls of those who have yet to find rest haunt The Island?
Find my entry above, and you'll see this idea is already worked out in more detail.
You guys are all so awesome. I might write the posts, but you all always give me different perspectives with your comments. The only thing I'm not 100% clear on is whether this final scene was Jack's or everyone's, and now I'm going to see if I could form a post arguing that it's actually everyone's... and convince myself of it, too. :)
The Shout Said...
Not seen anyone mention this anywhere (haven't read through all the comments, so apologies if they have)but when they all 'ascended to the wherever' I couldn't help but think of the light at the centre of The Island. Could this be where all souls end up? Both good and bad? And why the smoke monster was able to take on the form and memories of dead people? And why the souls of those who have yet to find rest haunt The Island?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's a nice way to look at it! because for a moment i thought hmmm so there are souls stuck on the island as whispers and now there apparently is a limbo of some sorts somewhere else.
Your theory connects the 2 together and sheds some light (no pun intended :P) on what the ISLAND IS!
That takes me back to what "mother" said while explaining what the heart of the island was: she said it was life death rebirth... something like that....
it also explains why dead people appear on the island e.g bens mother, jacobs mother, micheale etc... that's when the island allows the dead to cross over and change or remind the person of thier life etc.
This might also explain why walt appeared to shannon back in season 2.... he was dead! because inside the light time does not matter... so even though he was alive... the ghost which appeared to shannon was in fact walt dead.
i'm just trying to piece everything together now that lost has ended! it's all i can think about all day. Can't even study properly for exams because every few seconds my mind drifts off somewhere :P
My only question is about death in AfterFlashes/Limbo. If I understand correctly, this place was created by the Losties as a meeting place to catch up before being judged by Super Jacob.
Does this mean all non-essential personnel (Keemy, Mikhail, Omar, etc) that were killed were not really "there" but basically only existed to bring the Losties together? Basically empty shells of the people they looked like. The point of this place was to merge their individual and separate realities so that they can be awakened together, right?
Ben is the wildcard here for me. He CHOSE not to leave. He had come to terms with what he had done and was even forgiven by John for his actions. He was already awakened and his memories of the Island came back when Desmond decided that talking was for suckers and decided to use The Captain and Tinnile (Modern Family). I know he wants to use this time to foster a relationship with Alex and Rouseau (in my opinion) but he has an unfair advantage now doesn't he? I guess free will remains a part of LOST even in the afterlife...
Fred Said....
@The Shout:Not seen anyone mention this anywhere (haven't read through all the comments, so apologies if they have)but when they all 'ascended to the wherever' I couldn't help but think of the light at the centre of The Island. Could this be where all souls end up? Both good and bad? And why the smoke monster was able to take on the form and memories of dead people? And why the souls of those who have yet to find rest haunt The Island?
Find my entry above, and you'll see this idea is already worked out in more detail.
WILL CHECK THAT OUT NOW! :D
1 last thing, I know I've brought up the Matrix before, but did anyone else think of Ne Yo and Morpheus when Jack was talking to his Dad? He was opening his eyes to the "Reality" and not this lie he's been living where he has a son and Juliet for an ex-wife.
It's kind of simple actually, if nothing on the island happened then how would Jack know Desmond and Penny?
Even if the sideways plane ride happened Jack still would have only met Desmond and not Penny.
Also, why would Jack have any of these people be in this "vision" if he only spent a flight with them? They would have had absolutely no connections with each other if they all died in the initial crash.
BTW - What about the island makes dogs age in reverse? Vincent was little older than a pup after everything was done.
I thought about the Matrix, but not the one from the movie. In Doctor Who the matrix is a storage place for all the minds of deceased Time Lords, and in Deadly Assassin, the Doctor meets one of them there in another reality. This was many years before the movie The Matrix, btw.
The entire plot line of the show was premised on the continuing debate between Jacob and his brother, and the choosing of the candidates to take over Jacob’s role.
The smoke monster is THE central antagonist for the entire show.
Season after season of intrigue focused on the island and its mysterious forces and players.
And yet, we’re left without a real sense of the continuity concerning the island reality? Are you freaking kidding me? They basically rode roughshod over the context they created to justify the entire show!
It’s so disappointing that such a great show gave such short shrift to the central reality it used to drive the story and the character’s choices.
Imagine if “Buffy” had ended with shots of the great battle and Sunnydale collapsing, broken up with equally prevalent and interspersed scenes showing the Scooby gang reunion at a coffee shop 50 years later.
That would kind of suck out the urgent feeling of the situation don't cha think? LOL
Oh and minus the closure of seeing the huge pit that’s left of Sunnydale too. Who knows what happened to Sunnydale you may ask, and the writers answer, who cares!? The main characters you love so much are all happy aren’t they? Who cares what the ultimate result of all their efforts was? (Uh, well me actually…)
THAT's how I feel about what they did in the Lost finale.
Gaaaaa.
@redeem, thanks. I've never seen Dr Who but I might just have to now. Does Nikki recap Dr Who or does she plan to in the future? This would help in my decision to join the rank Dr Who'ers (do you guys reside in Whoville by chance?)
All of this sort of makes my brain contort and hurt. We will never know, will we? I love reading everyone's theories and comments though.
Fred said..
(we can then dispense with every ghost seen as a manifestation of Smokie). (It also means that those who left the island, left to live lives in the real world and eventually die; but the island has their images, their memories which it brings to life and creates in this alternate world?afterlife).
I like you idea of relating the island to the LIMBO world, but regarding the smokie manifestations how do you explain the presence of claudia to brother and the presence of little jacob to the smoke itself..
I don't think smokie ever manifested himself into anyone except locke and christian. the other ghosts weve seen were purely from the islands heart, a helping or guiding hand to the islands inhabitants. (read my theory on walt's ghost some posts above)
and about what you said on how the source brings these memories into life and create the alt world. i disagree once again :P
I do believe the limbo and island are connected. but the alt word was not created from the momeires of the people or else how would everyone else walking on the streets, markets etc come from... again i'm referrring to what mother said "if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere else" she already confirmed that the island is connected to the outside world she also said the light is "life death rebirth"
So it makes sense that that is where the losties "moved on to"
into the islands light
I agree on your theory, just with the modification above!!!!
Seriiously i am having so much fun figuring LOST out!!!! i'm so glad we can stell obsess over it eventhough it ENDED!!!!!! :D
Keep posting new theroies people... love to read them!
I believe the end shots were meant to imply everyone did die in the original crash. Unless they're wreckage from Frank's second Ajira flight, and the duct tape came loose, in which case only Frank, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Kate, and Claire died.
I can use my head and saw every episode of this series, and don't appreciate being told I read the ending this way because of some personal failing (stupid, don't believe in god, etc.). After three years, the clothing would not still be lying brightly on the beach.
Christian Shepherd made big claims in that church, but he was a dead, occasionally abusive, alcoholic. The fact that he said things were real, or Jack perceived them as he lay dying, doesn't mean they were. Remember, the sideways world wasn't real. So why suddenly take as gospel what you've suddenly been told there, about the nature of reality?
Damon and Carlton told us repeatedly (with Malkin for instance) that we should believe our eyes, not what unreliable characters say.
The end shots were meant to cast doubt on the preceding 10 minutes of neatly wrapped explanation. It was all real. Unless it wasn't.
Get comfortable with the ambiguity.
The fact that those shots weren't shown in Canada suggests they were much less important than they seemed while watching them in the U.S. But that doesn't diminish their resonance.
@Phil King
That's how i feel exaclty about the end of LOST! but i now think that they have given us enough information to let us figure everything out.
Honestly it was a thrill to have all the cast back this season. That's why i stopped complaining. if the final season was all composed of the dharma people, jacob and mib etc and the losties nowhere to be seen then i wouldve been angrier.
that reminds of how i felt at the beginning of the season when dogen and lennon and ilana came into the show! i was like finally some answers! but i didnt want answers to be given through them.. they were tools just like everything else to help us connect the dots :D:D:D
Nikki,
Funny - I was rewatching the finale last night and had the same idea about Jack and the people being there to help him on his journey. It did not make me like the ending, though (even if I might not hate it quite so much...) Don't get me wrong; I love the ending for itself, as a wrap to the season, maybe - it is a beautiful and deeply moving story. But that is not why I love Lost; I love the characters, but equally the story arc, and this just does not resolve it for me. And the ending being so steeped in mysticism and faith, and relying on the heart rather than the head was a let-down.
And I was prepared to love the finale; I was willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt until the end. I wanted to love it as much as I love the series. But they dropped the ball as far as I'm concerned, and this makes me even sadder than the fact that the series is over.
Supposedly from Mathew Fox's Facebook page: First of all I want to say thank you to all of the wonderful fans and the last six years, it’s been an amazing ride. But let’s save the tears for later and dig right in to ‘The End’. Let’s put one thing to rest, the Island was NOT purgatory, nor was it HELL. Everything that happened, happened. The Island was real, Jacob was real, Smokey was real, Flight 815 was real and all of our favorite characters and their deaths were REAL. The sideways world was their afterlife – it was not immediate nor was it far in the future, there is no time or time-lines in the afterlife. Because of their connections in life and on the Island, they all made the sideways world together as a place to find each other when they all eventually passed on. They all wanted to be together in the end, it was the power of their love for each other. Just like Christian Shephard said to Jack, “some of them died before you and some long after you”. It’s the place you go when you leave this world and pass to the next. In no way does it mean that the Island and their lives weren’t real. Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on September 22, 2004 and they lived there for 108 days before the Oceanic Six left the Island for three years. The rest stayed on the Island as it shifted through time and we saw the Dharma Initiative and how our people caused ‘The Incident’. The Incident only served to put the time-lines back in place and put our people back in 2007 where they needed to be to fulfill their destinies. When Juliet died and said “it worked”, this only served as an introduction into the sideways world, the afterlife. It was an easy way to slide us into the new story telling feature this season. Jack became the new ‘Jacob’, but only for a short time, because he knew it was his destiny to save the Island. Hurley became the new ‘Jacob’ and Ben became the new ‘Richard’ for the long term. Hurley was innocent and pure, just as Jacob once was. To clear up a few loose ends. Ben did not go into the church because he was not truly connected to any of the people inside and was not yet ready to move on. The people inside all had lasting connections throughout their lives and a few of them had life altering love that connected them, such as Desmond and Penny. David, Jack’s son, was not real. Just as Locke told him from the hospital bed, “you don’t have a son Jack”. This was something that Jack’s mind created because it seemed right and he had not yet let go. Kate ultimately helped him to let go by taking him to the church, Christian finished the job. They did not all die at once and their lives on the Island mattered as much as anything else, what happened – happened. They all died at different times and all met there at the same time, because there is no “now” in the sideways world, in the afterlife. You will also notice that not everyone from our past was there, some were ready and some were not. Some betrayed their connections and some never felt anything for anyone on the Island. I hope this serves to help you better understand what the ending meant and how it was meant to be portrayed. Please feel free to comment and ask questions and I, we, will do the best to answer them. Thanks for all the memories and thanks for being the loyal fans that you have always been.
@Wanda: The most compelling argument, for me, as to why the shots of wreckage playing over the credits aren't part of the narrative (and thus, aren't intended to affect the meaning of that narrative) is that they occurred after the "L O S T" bump that closes out each episode.
To me, that signals the episode (and the narrative) is over; what follows isn't part of it (in much the same way the "next week on Lost" promos weren't part of the show's narrative).
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, I just wanted to suggest an additional rationale for the exclusion of those scenes from narrative consideration.
Wanda said....
I believe the end shots were meant to imply everyone did die in the original crash. Unless they're wreckage from Frank's second Ajira flight, and the duct tape came loose, in which case only Frank, Miles, Richard, Sawyer, Kate, and Claire died.
I can use my head and saw every episode of this series, and don't appreciate being told I read the ending this way because of some personal failing (stupid, don't believe in god, etc.). After three years, the clothing would not still be lying brightly on the beach.
Hahaha! i just assumed the bright clothes were there because that was pictures taken of the fuselage as a SET with the clothes etc. and strings ropes and strings and clear footprints shown... as if to say hey guys... yes we are packing everything up... this is the end.
I still say it's everyone's, but seen through Jack's POV (mostly) because it's a Jack episode.
I think Rose knew what was up the whole time. Going back to the very first "sideways" scene when she tells Jack he "can let go now"---I think she knew, saw that Jack was ready, and planted the seed. Next time we see her, she helps Locke let go in one sense (letting go of his resentment about being in the wheelchair), though of course he still has to let go of the guilt that kept him from seeking out help.
Actually, I think Vozzeck at DarkUFO has been saying for some time that Rose and Bernard knew, but I didn't believe it the finale.
Nikki, I appreciate your thoughtful interpretation of the LOST series finale.
For those of you who were disappointed with the ending of LOST, consider this: you can't always get what you want, but you'll find sometimes, you get what you need.
While my questions about the origins of the Dharma Initiative or other 'nagging' details weren't answered in the series finale, I got something much better. The spiritual nature of the ending was something I (and, I'm sure, many others) needed.
Not sure if this has been discussed in the comments yet or not.
Assuming that people like Sawyer, Kate, and especially Hurley and Ben lived much longer than Jack, who we saw die on the island, then how long has Jack been living in this "purgatory," sideways reality waiting to cross over? If they are all crossing over together, or even if it's just Jack's send-off, then there is a huge time gap between Jack's death and some of the others' deaths - since Hurley and Ben are at the church, they're dead, too, we assume.
Perhaps time is non-existent in the sideways reality. Hurley and Ben could have indeed lived for centuries after Jack's death, but time could pass slowly or quickly in the sideways reality depending on who's life it is.
@QAIS:(we can then dispense with every ghost seen as a manifestation of Smokie).
There were some ideas that Smokie was all the ghosts. What I am saying is we can dispense with that idea. I had on some other post (much earlier episode) noted that Claudia appears in a golden light, suggestive that her "ghost" is from the island itself and not a manifestation of Smokie. If we attribute agency to the island/Light (not just a dumb inanimate locale for the power source) then we can explain lots of "ghosts" that were either never on the island (Ben's mother), or appeared off island (Libby, Christian).
The smoke monster was very much limited by the rule of impersonating only dead bodies (hence he could look like Yemi). But then he could not look like Isabella in the Black Rock (either this was from the island, or it was an hallucination by Richard who was severely dehydrated). Also the bodies of the men from Eko's gang were also on the island, and since Smokie had three parts (3 smoke forms that combined or separated) he was able to represent the three men before Eko.
So you just misread what I wrote, and really I should be clearer in the way I write.
Let's move on to something else: the source in the cave and the appearance there of the water trough to the source, and the big stone stopper. I'll do it as a story:
Long time ago, ancient people's knew of a location (much as the Aborigines knew of Ularua and its healing properties) in the Meditereanean Sea. This was a floating island that when people came to it, it could not only heal but make the infertile fertile. These early people, or Egyptians, built the Tarewet statue like a version of a lighthouse, so those coming to the island could find it.
Egyptians also were tremendous engineers, as we have testimony in their pyramids and drainage systems. Like the Carthagian Romans, they noticed magnetic properties on the island, and found the cave. They seem to have started a well, but accidentally created their onw Swan condition. Hence they needed to fix it, which they did with the stone plug. (I think of the source here like we think of atomic piles, where we use heavy water to regulate and keep safe from the radioactive properties). The Egyptians used water to regulate the EM properties of the Source, and so we see the built trough to the source, where the stone plug is.
The Egyptians knew this place with its "magical" properties had to be protected, and so the first of the protectors was initiated. The smoke monster may have been created by accident, as we saw some skeletons in the cave. Inadvertantly proximity to the Source may have created a smokie out of a worker in the cave (the personality of the smoke monster depended on who was the smoke monster). We see in the hieroglyphs under the Temple a priest praying to the smoke monster, so this had gone on for some time.
Perhaps Mother was a smoke monster, as by this time the Egyptians had left, and the Romans had ascended in power. If Mother was a smoke monster, she fulfilled two roles, that of the protector and the security device. We can see this may have been a more elabotrate system in the past by seeing how the ritual to elect a new protector degraded: first we saw wine, and some Latin, then a cup of clear water, some mumbled Latin, then dirty water in a plastic bottle and no Latin.
So the island went on with the role of protector and smoke monster maybe as one, until Claudia arrived and gave birth to 2 children. Mother could finally die once she had handed over the role of protector to Jacob, a change over that returned her to mortality, the reason MiB could kill her. Similarly, once Jack became the new protector, MiB probably was mortal, but no one knew it.
So far that's what I got.
To the person that suggested that "Rose knew the whole time"... very insightful. That would make perfect sense, as Rose was the one person who was already contemplating the meaning of death, given the fact that she was dealing with her cancer at the time of the crash. What she intuitively knew, she was trying to relay to Jack.
@Todd Yes. As Christian said, "There is no time here". So you're correct. :)
@Duke: Your post was beautiful. It made me cry all over again. It is everything I have wanted to say, it is said in a way I wish I could have said it and it is everything that I have felt since the end of this show. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
Nikki: If "it worked", and if the island sank, wouldn't Ben and Hurley have died then?
I am having the easiest time following so much of this story, including David, but what I can't seem to get out of a catch-22 is that Ben, Jack, and Hurley were left on a island that we know eventually sank. If it sank, wouldn't Jack's remains, Ben and Hurley have gone down with it? I'm just stuck there!
@Gracie: If it sank, wouldn't Jack's remains, Ben and Hurley have gone down with it? I'm just stuck there!
The island never sank for real. Jack died on it, Hurley and Ben protected, at some point, they died, and other people took over guarding, and so on.
It only "sank" in the unreal, fabricated, purgatorial afterlife-in-waiting world created by the souls of the 815ers. For whatever reason, when they created the Sideways world, they created it so that the island sank at some point in the past.
But the real island, the one Jack died on, never sank.
Does that help?
Oh and minus the closure of seeing the huge pit that’s left of Sunnydale too. Who knows what happened to Sunnydale you may ask, and the writers answer, who cares!? The main characters you love so much are all happy aren’t they? Who cares what the ultimate result of all their efforts was? (Uh, well me actually…)
Of course, that leads me to ask about the mystery of the ocean disappearing and how Sunnydale got into the middle of the desert.
Does Nikki recap Dr Who or does she plan to in the future?
Nikki doesn't watch Doctor Who. *glares at Nikki* Next project, maybe? :)
Though that story I mentioned is from the seventies. There's a lot of Doctor Who to watch. For a new fan, I'd suggest starting with the episodes from this decade, then look back to the other ones if you're interested.
I am having the easiest time following so much of this story, including David, but what I can't seem to get out of a catch-22 is that Ben, Jack, and Hurley were left on a island that we know eventually sank. If it sank, wouldn't Jack's remains, Ben and Hurley have gone down with it? I'm just stuck there!
We don't know it sank though. It might have. What we saw in the sideways world wasn't necessarily what happened, and certainly not in the real world. And even if it did sink - that could be when Ben and Hurley died.
My new underlying theme for Lost - everybody's gotta go sometime.
Teebore said: "@Gracie: If it sank, wouldn't Jack's remains, Ben and Hurley have gone down with it? I'm just stuck there! The island never sank for real. Jack died on it, Hurley and Ben protected, at some point, they died, and other people took over guarding, and so on. It only "sank" in the unreal, fabricated, purgatorial afterlife-in-waiting world created by the souls of the 815ers. For whatever reason, when they created the Sideways world, they created it so that the island sank at some point in the past. But the real island, the one Jack died on, never sank.
Does that help?"
YES!! That's what I wanted to believe!!! Thank you!!
BUT what was the point of showing us that it sank? They seemed to be making a huge point in showing us that especially so early in Six? There's my catch-22.
@Gracie: BUT what was the point of showing us that it sank? They seemed to be making a huge point in showing us that especially so early in Six? There's my catch-22.
Honestly? I think they showed us the island sunk because:
A. It was a cool "WTF" visual to with which to start off the season.
B. More importantly, it was likely to focus our speculation away from the real explanation of the Sideways world (purgatorial afterlife) and towards something else (a parallel reality caused by the detonation of Jughead), especially since the reveal of the sunk island, and the flash sideways first appearance, occurred on the heels of an event that had the possibility of creating a parallel reaity.
So they played with our expectations of what Jughead did or didn't do to mask the truth about the flashsideways.
Thank you Teebore. For now, I think I'm actually good to go.
I'm sure Spouse and I will have some questions from way back, but for now I'm happy with the ending, and everything just fits together and works.
Again, Thanks!!
Can I make a plea to everyone not to post spoilers for other shows. I know Buffy ended a long time ago but I haven't seen any of them and I have a nice box set of the whole show to watch now Lost is over.
And this is coming from someone who very nearly gave the game away about Ashes to Ashes - sorry Nikki.
I think the dialogue between Jack and Desmond just before he's lowered into the cave preempts this discussion:
Desmond: It doesn't matter...you and me sat next to each other on Oceanic flight 815.It never crashed. We spoke to each other. You seemed happy.
Jack: There are no shortcuts, no do-overs. What happened happened. Trust me, I know. All of this matters.
I think we need to remember the off repeated 'What happened happened' mantra!
Anonymous - thanks for posting Matthew Fox's facebook entry. It makes more sense to me now, I think !! I will have to read it a couple more times though :-)
Its a shame that Jack never really had a son then, just something that happened in limbo.
Did we really see the island sink (I missed or forgot that bit !) - or didn't it stop sinking once Jack put the 'plug' back in to let the water flow and the golden light reappear.
And thanks to those who reminded us of Bernard and Rose being so perceptive - I'll definitely have to watch again to look for those.
Oh - and talking about the Dharma initiative. Were they all another set of candidates?
Or did they come to the island to investigate and tap into or 'use' its powers? Don't forget it was Dharma people led by the 'crazy guy' (I;ve forgotten his name) who wanted to drill into the pocket of energy.
(By the way, I'm not so new to the board, just been watching in the UK where we have been running at least 4 days late from when you guys see episodes. And sometimes I only got to see them a week or more later. so by the time I have seen them there are hundreds of comments and your chat has moved on.
Maybe the forthcoming Lost encyclopaedia will answer some of the many questions big and small
Check this out for the official word:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/05/lost-exclusive-abc-sets-the-record-straight-about-the-series-finales-plane-crash-images.html
I totally stand corrected from this morning. Rose and Bernard WERE in the church; I just saw a screen capture from that scene. They still left out Vincent, though ;-)
@The Dude: What about the island makes dogs age in reverse? Vincent was little older than a pup after everything was done.
Interesting point, given that for so many years Richard never aged. And did anyone notice how “brand new” Smoke-Flocke was at the well with Sawyer and Ben? He was really clean and had not a mark on him.
@redeem147: There's a lot of Doctor Who to watch. For a new fan, I'd suggest starting with the episodes from this decade, then look back to the other ones if you're interested.
BBCAmerica has just started a new Dr. Who series, with a brand new Doctor and Companion. New episodes air Saturdays, repeats in mid-week.
Thank you to “anonymous” who posted the link to the LA Times article confirming that the stupid plane wreckage pics were added by ABC (and NOT the show’s creators). I think this puts to rest the notion that the images were supposed to "suggest" anything, like the idea that everyone died in the original Oceanic crash. The network threw them up there with the credits without even thinking. Which goes to show how bright they are...
A couple things I've been thinking about. First off, ABC, the network itself, by posting those pics, started this whole crash site thing that led many to believe that everyone died in the crash and the whole island experience and the show we loved was not real. Shame on them. Now, had they also included pictures from the "beach village" that the LOSTIES built and lived in, and maybe other sites like the caves, Adam and Eve, the Nigerian plane, etc., much of this could have been avoided. OY!
Also, on a happier note, I forsee a future waiting room filled with the KAHANA freighties having the time of their lives. Eventually Eloise will let go and in so doing let Daniel go as well. Then we'll have Charlotte, Naomi, Frank, Keammy, Omar, Minkowski, the Doc and others...most notably, Miles, the millionaire due to his lucky find in Nikki and Paulo's grave. Yeehaw. They will have a good ole time in THAT church.
And maybe Richard wasn't there because A) he will be heading out later with Ben or Miles...or B) he is still ageless and cannot die. I know...gray hairs. But wouldn't it be sad if he had to still keep on living...especially in the REAL world?
Keep it coming you Nik at Nite readers. This is fun.
In case you guys want a laugh - my mom said on the news the anchor actually announced they were dead all along..she clearly never watched the show, payed attention to what Christian said at the end, or read Nikki's blog.
Wow! What a beautiful 'take' on the episode! THAT is why Nikki is the author & we are just her 'followers', so to speak. She made it a little clearer to me.
My theory or opinion(whichever you want to call it)of Jack seeing the plane take off overhead, was that he could finally 'let go' completely because he knew those left made it off safely. He knew he had done his job & found inner peace. He didn't die alone. Even tho Vincent(I swear that is a different dog!)was with him when he died, I find it so apprapoe(SP?)because Vincent was the first 'survivor' he saw when he woke up after crashing. Also, a dog is loyal. He will stay with his master in times of tragedy. Jack was his master, of sorts. Jack didn't die alone. But, he felt complete. Exhaunerated(Wow!I need a dictionary!)& absolved.
Were all questions answered? No. But, I don't care. It was a brilliant finale & that just didn't matter to me. I will take a great finale, or even episode, period, that answers little or nothing over a poorly written and/or boring one that answers it all. I don't WANT everything answered! Where would the fun be in THAT!!!?
Sure, we can nit pick all the live long day. But, I just want to relish in the fact that this was THE best episode of all time with LOST! I loved the pilot. Hated the season with the Tailies. I felt like the writers ran out of ideas & these people crashed the party. The only one of the Tailies that I liked was Bernard. I hated Ana Lucia as much as Nikki hated Nikki & Paulo!
But, this was by FAR the best episode of the whole series. I came away red eyed from crying, swollen eyed from crying like a freakin' baby & truly
satisfied.
Well done.
I sent a 'LOST Transmission' but they didn't show it. I thought it was pretty good, if I do say so myself. Here it is. Tell me what you think?
'Thank-you for making the last 6 years an amazing journey of destiny.'
There will never be another show like this. I take comfort in that. Why? A)Well, the obvious~excellent & weird, all in one. And B)I don't think I can handle this again! It was soooooooo good! I'm tired!
I'm glad we all have the chance to be on here for as long as we keep the discussions & theories going! I love reading everyone's posts! There are some smart LOSTies on here! I am a better person for being here! Thanx!
I think your analysis is brilliant. However, I also don't think Jack was the only one to "pass over." I think it was significant and deliberate that they were there together and were entering the light together. A look at their faces when Christian opened the doors and the light entered was the telltale sign for me.
As far as Hurley and his family being absent is concerned...I think it's possible that Hurley could have had his own "final encounter" with his family members and chose to wait to cross over with Jack and the others. Or...perhaps Hurley's closest family members were still working through their own "sideways" before they were ready. I don't see a conflict at all.
Wanda: I haven't read all the way through the comments, but ABC actually released a statement tonight that THEY came up with the idea to show b-roll of the wreckage over the end credits, and that wasn't Damon and Carlton's idea at all. They just watned something purty to put with the credits. Therefore, it has NO bearing on the storyline whatsoever.
Question to anyone familiar with Blue Ray?
I just saw the Jimmy Kimmel Q & A with the Lost cast. They mentioned something that they said MIGHT be coming out on the Blue Ray Season Six. What's the difference between DVD's and Blue Ray? I honestly don't know since I was never much of a TV watcher to begin with. Is there a difference? Does Blue Ray offer something that DVD's don't when you buy the season?
Re: Doctor Who: No, I haven't actually watched Doctor Who (I know, I KNOW... I've already ducked when redeem was throwing sharp things at me the LAST time I admitted that!!) ;) But I was actually saying to Mark at Space today that that is one of the series I intend to pick up now that Lost is over. I promise. (I actually have the first 2 seasons on DVD... just haven't watched them.)
Oops, I should have continued reading... I see someone already posted the article about ABC's admission. Thanks for doing that! :)
Need some help here. Frankly, this may be the most honest thing I've ever asked you guys, so please don't guess. I'm really having a hard time with this.
Background: I grew up with religion in the family. Christian background. Went to church every Sunday. I was baptised. All the kids went, but our parents didn't go to church with us as they used Sunday mornings as time to be alone, and to regroup from the work week (Mom did, dad was already drinking that early). But I grew up in the church. Have more or less gotten away from it as I've aged. I don't believe the church to be the only "House of God". I can go out in my backyard and be in God's house IMHO. It's become standard for me that if you want to believe in God, you don't have to go to church to do it.
Spouse grew up Catholic. The Whole Nine Yards too. Catholic church. Catholic school. Catholic parents. Catholic nuns and Catholic rulers too! Today he feels the same way I do about God and religion. If you're going to practice a religion or follow one, you don't need a church to do it.
Together we raised a Catholic child (school and church educated), who at 19, may or may not ever marry, much less marry in a Catholic church. (Her father and I were married 30 years age this Friday, May 28th, by the mayor.) Already the interior of a church doesn't mean as much to her as God's great outdoors.
Why, in your opinion, did I understand the ending of this show and Child understood it (once we saw it without frequent ABC/cable interruptions), but Spouse does not get it? He says, "That was stupid."
OR
"They spent six years on this, and they're trying to tell you that the ending of THEIR program depends on YOUR faith?"
OR
"I think they promised the real fans an ending that would be logical and make sense, and in the end, they just couldn't come up with one. Not to mention there were too many questions that they knew they couldn't answer."
Does anyone get this? Cause I don't. I flat out just don't. And I can't understand how or why he feels this way.
If you have an answer, please let me know?
@Nikki: In light of the fact that you are the resident "expert" on Lost, I would love to know if you have an opinion on my last post.
Please let me know what you think? I don't think I'm ever going to have a more important Lost question than this one!
Thanks!
Gracie: I don't think liking or not liking this episode actually has anything to do with religious faith. I'm sure there are many atheists out there who loved it, and many Christians or Muslims or people of Jewish faith who hated it. That wasn't what it was about.
I think the dividing line here was more if you found yourself more invested in the questions than the actual characters. As a friend explained it to me today, from an emotional point of view, he was very satisfied with it. But from a view of reason, wanting answers and a bit more explanation, he simply wasn't. So I think that might be the divide.
But in the end, I think Lost, as I've said many times, is a very personal show. We can't really reason why a person feels one way and another person feels differently. Some people didn't like it, and might come to change their opinion over time. Others loved it, but might temper that over time when they've thought it through and realized they weren't actually as satisfied as they thought they were. Still others might hate it and continue to hate it.
Every person has their own reaction. It's not really up to us to wonder why or try to figure them out, and instead we can just accept that some of us will feel differently than others. :)
Nikki: If you're wondering did he love the questions more than the characters or the characters more than the questions, I'd have to say both equally. If he had to pick one over the other, I think his answer would be that the questions were less important to him than the people (characters). He truly, truly enjoyed this show until the end.
THAT is what probably makes your reply perfect. He's been busy the last couple days so he wasn't with me as I did a Season Six rewatch. And I certainly didn't love it the first time I saw it due to the cable problems we had. But now I can't watch it without having a breakdown, sort of speak.
Maybe when the two of us do the entire rewatch, and we are planning to do that soon, it will come out better for him the second time around.
Thanks.
Follow up question to Nikki:
You're going to love this one:
"If you could ask Cuse and Lindelof just one question FOR YOUR BOOK before your book goes to print, what would it be?"
Can you tell I want the damn book? LOL
@Nikki and Gracie
I agree that your faith or lack of faith doesn't seem to be an factor in your response to the finale.
Nikki - I think the dividing line here was more if you found yourself more invested in the questions than the actual characters.
As you go on to say it's notas simple as this. I was not expecting or wanting answers to the questions, I was very invested in the characters, yet I was still a little disappointed with the resolution of the sideways world. I think the finale was meant to create this kind of debate. It was designed in a way that each individual would respond in a different way. Believe me, I wish I had sobbed through the whole thing and reacted in the cathartic way that many did - but I didn't and it's hard to explain why. I just didn't.
I think I sometimes react this way when I have been anticipating something for a long time.
However, I think the whole of season 6 left me feeling a little flat. I'm not sure why, maybe I've just been experiencing overkill!Maybe I'll feel better about it once I've read your book. :)
Thanks for posting this, Nikki! I've been reading a lot of people taking that away from the finale too, and I just don't get it. For what it's worth, here is a link to my analysis of what happened, in case anyone would like to read it. I think we were seeing three very distinct dimensions of the world (flash-backs, island, and sideways world).
http://mjdolce.livejournal.com/263207.html
Thanks again for everything you have posted over the years!
Question - Why was Jack's ex-wife Juliet in the Sideways world?
I have spent the last 48 hours chewing over what I saw in the final episode. Then I spent it checking print media to see what they thought of it (call me a young fogey, but I still like reading papers) The debate about whether the finale worked has broken down around party lines--- USA Today was awed by the finale, The Post was indifferent, and the Times was openly hostile. I made a couple of postings to my own blog right after the finale, and I would be ever so grateful, if people would read that, because they sum up my feelings far better than anything I can say here. Now thatit's settled in a little, I have to say I'm still not entirely satisfied, and I think I have good reason to be.
They've been running all sevens this season. They've been giving us answers, they've been showing us detail, and they've been wrapping up old business. And until the final fifteen minutes of the episode, I was sure that they were going to pull it off. Then those last few scenes (which Carlton and Damon claimed they'd had planned since the last three years, mind you) snd I was disappointed beyond measures.
First of all, let's say that Nikki is right and that everything in the sideways world was set up as Jack's particular afterlife. Then why go into such detail about it? Why have him married to Juliet and with a son, things that he showed no interest in having in the real world? Why picture Ben, who was basically his nemesis into this world weak and powerless? And why go through everything with Desmond? If Jack was supposed to be the one at the center, why did Desmond have to do all the work to get them there? Why all the effort to bring him back to the island just for this? Structurally, it doesn't make much sense.
But even saying that I accept that all this was just an afterlife, it doesn't change the fact that Carlton and Damon used this whole thing as classic misdirection (I also find it a bit insulting after going through six years telling us the island was NOT purgatory, they create a whole world that is supposed to be a distraction for the fact it IS essentially purgatory.)
Because while the reunions of all the characters throughout the last couple of hours were emotionally powerful, it doesn't change the fact that, it helped the writers manage to work around the fact that they never explained exactly what the island was, how Desmond was going to help him destroy it, who the man in Black was, what the others had to do with it, and just about everything else that they left unresolved I know they've repeatedly been clear that some mysteries were never going to be answered, but come on, there are sins of omission, and just plain avoiding solving problems. And if they wanted to be clear that everything happen, why show those pictures of the wreckage over the credits at all? How many times did we see the camp? We never saw shots like that. Never.
While reading Robert SHearman's 2009 book reviewing the X-Files, he writes "when a series which relies upon big mysteries for its appeal gets extended beyond its natural life, whatever conclusions it reaches can only be thought of as anticlimax. (It was true with Twin Peaks. It was true with Life on Mars (british version) It may be true with Lost --- time will tell.)" Given everything that Carlton and Damon did during the last three seasons,we thought they might have been able to untie the Gordian knot. But right now I feel that they did exactly what Alexander did and slash it apart. Which would be okay if they hadn't spent the last one hundred and twenty hours seemingly to very delicately untie it.
I imagine there will be endless discussion about this, that the cast will be answering questions about this for the rest of their lives, and even more books will be written. What I'm not sure about is whether I'll have the energy to read them.I'll be back around here to post my thoughts later, but for now, I'm just disappointed. A wise playwright once wrote that death ends a life, but it doesn't end a relationshuip. I wanted closure (another blog post) and as far as I'm concerned, I didn't get it.
The network admitted that it wasn't a part of the show. They wanted a lead into the news that would unwind the audience heading in. Looks like they made the wrong choice.
@Gracie The major differences between regular DVD's and Blu Rays are one, the picture is better, and two, more information can be put on each disc. The first way the more information thing can be seen is that more episoded can go on each disc depending on the extras you put on it. I have a Sony Blu ray player and it also plays regular DVD's but regular DVD players can't play Blu ray discs.
@Nikki: What Christian said to Jack convinced me that it was a place everyone met so they (the friends who were ready at that time) could move on.
Christian: Well, this is the place that you all made together. The most important part of your life was the time that you spent with these people. That's why all of you are here. That's why all of you are here. Nobody does it alone Jack. You needed all of them - and they needed you.
Jack: For what?
Christian: To remember - and to let go.
It wasn't ever just Jacks story it was their life a life that all their fights, conversations, loves, just plain lives redeemed each other.
just reading the comments..
David..you are aware that ABC has said they are the ones who included the empty crash site with credits. They thought it would act as a "buffer" between the show and the upcoming newscast.
It was not and never was part of the story. To be blunt ABC made another dumb decision (we in Canada were spared the idiot V countdown but we did hear about it)
I personally have no problem with unanswered questions about what is..at the end of the day..a fictional world. Whatever I learn about the island came out of the imagination of the writers.
For me the most important thing about a work of fiction is how do I feel while I'm reading or watching it. And Lost felt great.
For me it was a great lush adventure with characters I really could care about..even Smokey who I cared quite abit about biting it before the end.
so I was happy with ending..the characters came back together on moved on and I'm fine with that.
No my question why the fertility issues was never really answered. There were some comments about aged uteruses and immune responses to the fetus but that all that was said directly. We do know that there was an incident and a bomb detonation. And maybe jacob was a bit ticked at the whole purge thing.
But Lost wasn't about fertility, it was about Jack and Kate and Sawyer and Ben..and I got my answers for them. The rest for me, was part of the adventure and I'm very glad I went along
E V E R Y B O D Y ! !
I've been trying to figure out where to post this so the maximum number of people will see it, and I sincerely hope this is the place!!
FOR ALL THOSE INTERESTED, "GERONIMO JACKS BEARD" HAS A PODCAST FOR "THE END". They recorded it yesterday. IMHO it's good! Go take a listen!
Sorry I forgot @ Nikki:
They address in the GJB's podcast the pros and cons of Nadia vs. Shannon. I think you'd want to hear that.
"Island love trumps all other love."
If you guys already knew this, I'm sorry. I haven't read everything yet.
@Gracie: Since this is a non sleepy time for me I was listening to the podcast while checking my e-mail and there you were. I'm listening to it a second time.
This was a good post; the theories put forth are sound and satisfying.
But for someone who was allegedly an employee of Bad Robot, a writer, then he/she should certainly know how to spell the character's names: Rousseau, Widmore, Hawking, Lapidus, NOT Roussou, Whidmore, Hawkins, etc.
Rufus said: "@Gracie: Since this is a non sleepy time for me I was listening to the podcast while checking my e-mail and there you were. I'm listening to it a second time."
Does that mean everyone already knew about it? I'm so far behind in the posts, that I didn't know if it had been posted. I did a search for "GJB" and with it spelled out, and I didn't see anything. I knew people would hate to find out later rather than sooner if there was a podcast up.
I hope you enjoyed it BOTH times, and thanks for letting me know.
@Gracie: No I have no idea how many others know about the podcast so you may have been the first. I tripped over it accidentally I think it was about 3am pacific. I'd been catching up on a movie and reading.
Thanks Rufus. Maybe my good deed for the day, then? I'd enjoy that - passing on a good thing.
Thank you!
@Gracie: I forgot to add a detail. I had a moment when I felt so stupid when they were talking about that scar on Jack's abdomen being the one from the MIB that killed him in the end. Which side was that on again? And the real fact that Matthew Fox was lucky to be wearing a pad with a layer of Kevlar as it accidentally wasn't a prop knife used in that scene. Good stuff in the podcast for sure.
@Rufus: That is exactly why I wanted to make sure everyone knew about it. But I didn't want to give anything away.
I don't think we should say any more than what's been said so we don't spoil it for those who have not been there yet. But I know what you mean, and you know what I mean. :o)
Has everyone seen a more recent picture of Walt? If not, check this out. He did "grow up". WOW!!
http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/photo-details/lost-live-the-final-celebration/448248/447235
About the scar. It was in episode 5 "Lighthouse" that Jack noticed the scar in the mirror then asked his mother if he'd had his appendix out and she told him he was at school and was about seven or eight at the time.
I'm so stupid for forgetting that one.
Anyone: I need a quick reminder if anyone just happens to know exactly what I'm asking and what the reason was:
During about Season Three (?), Ben sent some Others to the Losties Camp to kidnap all the women not knowing that Karl had tipped them off. This was deep into the whole pregnancy story line.
Refresh my memory: What did Ben plan to do with all the women once he got them under his "control"?
Somebody out there knows this without looking it up. Probably everyone but me. HELP?
long as we're talking about Jack's appendectomy scar...
Did anyone else notice, in episode 6.1, when Jack first notices the scar, that his chest and abdomen are shaved -- completely hair-free!
In the Pilot, when Kate is sewing his wound, he's quite hirsute.
Any thoughts or theories?
@Gracie: Refresh my memory: What did Ben plan to do with all the women once he got them under his "control"?
No idea. That would be one of the plots that was left dangling.
I can speculate*, but then, neither you nor I are Lost writers, which doesn't really make it our job to come up with the story...
*I like the idea that Ben/Others was trying to remove the out-and-out innocents from the gameboard of the island, bringing them to the Temple for protection (like Cindy and the kids) so they wouldn't be harmed by the game being played by Jacob and MiB. Otherwise, he was probably just kidnapping women and children as part of his obsession with the pregnancy issues.
Boy, have I got a question:
I was just at YouTube watching some oldies but goodies, and I stumbled upon Shannon's Tribute.
During the tribute, there are scenes where Shannon is dancing on the beach with Sayid, and they're all dressed up (sort of). I seem to remember this as like a dance of the dead (?) or something equally eerie. Can anyone remind me what this beach dance was all about and where it came from? I've seen it before, but I'm drawing a complete blank on where I saw it and why. If you don't know what I'm talking, you can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4YG2weSO04
I also found something I would call a "turnaround moment" for two of our Losties. In Exodus when Sawyer tells Jack about his (Sawyer's) meeting in a bar with a man named Christian who told Sawyer about a fight he'd had with his son. Sawyer said, "Kids are like dogs. If you knock 'em around enough, they'll think they did something to deserve it."
This was a "turnaround moment" for Jack and for Sawyer IMHO. A big moment in Sawyer's life because he shared it with Jack against every instinct he had, and a big moment for Jack because he was faced with the knowledge that there was good where he could only see bad, and his "selective memory" didn't work ALL the time. It's on YouTube as a Hall-of-Fame moment, and it should be. You can see it here if you'd like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjOhGrcm1vU
@Gracie: During the tribute, there are scenes where Shannon is dancing on the beach with Sayid, and they're all dressed up (sort of). I seem to remember this as like a dance of the dead (?) or something equally eerie. Can anyone remind me what this beach dance was all about and where it came from? I've seen it before, but I'm drawing a complete blank on where I saw it and why.
That scene is an excerpt from an international (Spanish, I think) Lost promo created by the local TV market of that country (so whatever the Spanish ABC's name is, they made the promo, just like ABC makes the promos for Lost here).
Nikki posted it here sometime during the season five/season six hiatus, which is where I saw it.
Yes, Teebore is right... it was a promo done for another country, but I believe it was actually in the UK for Sky (I could be wrong on that!) They're all dancing on the beach in goth makeup and clothing and Locke looks like he's conducting music. Creepy, but many fans loved it.
Teebore said: "I like the idea that Ben/Others was trying to remove the out-and-out innocents from the gameboard of the island, bringing them to the Temple for protection (like Cindy and the kids) so they wouldn't be harmed by the game being played by Jacob and MiB. Otherwise, he was probably just kidnapping women and children as part of his obsession with the pregnancy issues."
Not that I'm doubting you, but really? I thought he had a reason for sending for them, and was quite ticked off when it didn't work. I believe this was at the same time that most of the Losties were leaving camp to head to the tower, and Bernard, Sayid and Jin (?) stayed behind after Karl came to camp to warn them they were coming for the women. (I believe Charlie and Desmond had just taken off for the Looking Glass too, but this is a lot of memory, and I'm bound to mess it up somewhere. LOL) Hmmm. Now that I think into that further, stay with me Teebore. Ben ended up with Jack at the tower, and Jack stomped all over him, and Danielle met Alex for the first time? Back at camp the three Losties, plus a VW'd Hurley, killed all of Ben's men, including Tom, right? Didn't all of that happen right there at about the same time? (If I did mess that up, no problem.)
Wasn't this the very last time the story ever really spoke of the pregnancy issue? Except for in reference to Sun herself, I don't remember anyone talking about pregnancy in any way, shape or form after this point. Like it suddenly became a total non-issue, which was solidified once Sun was off the island.
Also, I know exactly what you meant when you said: "I can speculate*, but then, neither you nor I are Lost writers, which doesn't really make it our job to come up with the story..."
and I had to LOL. Teebore, as you can see, I play hell trying to remember what the story WAS exactly. I'm certainly in no position to try to add to it, and when I ask you guys to help me with a question or to clarify? That's exactly what I do NOT want to do. That's why I ask you guys. I'm trying to stay true to ONLY what we were shown, and THEN go from there.
I also saw your reply post on Shannon where you said: "Nikki posted it here sometime during the season five/season six hiatus, which is where I saw it."
Which leaves me more puzzled than ever, because I was not here yet. So where did I see it? I know I DID see it, but not here. Hmmm!
Nikki: Saw your reply too. How in the heck did I see it? That's going to drive me nuts. Possibly everyone else too.
Nikki and Teebore:
Rufus said: "@Gracie The major differences between regular DVD's and Blu Rays are one, the picture is better, and two, more information can be put on each disc. The first way the more information thing can be seen is that more episoded can go on each disc depending on the extras you put on it. I have a Sony Blu ray player and it also plays regular DVD's but regular DVD players can't play Blu ray discs."
This was a great answer, Rufus gave me, but it wasn't what I was looking for: If you buy the DVD's, do you get anything that is NOT on the Blue Rays?
OR
If you buy the Blue Rays, do you get information that is NOT on the DVD's?
Could I have seen the "Shannon Dance" on my DVD Bonus Features? I have all the seasons in DVD. Does it matter?
@Gracie: Ben ended up with Jack at the tower, and Jack stomped all over him, and Danielle met Alex for the first time? Back at camp the three Losties, plus a VW'd Hurley, killed all of Ben's men, including Tom, right? Didn't all of that happen right there at about the same time?
No, you've got that all right (Sawyer and Juliet were on the beach too, part of the rescue party; this was when Sawyer killed Tom for taking Walt off the raft back in season one). That was the season three finale, but nothing was ever really explained as to why Ben wanted the women and children, at least not that I can recall or that isn't audience speculation.
Wasn't this the very last time the story ever really spoke of the pregnancy issue? Except for in reference to Sun herself, I don't remember anyone talking about pregnancy in any way, shape or form after this point. Like it suddenly became a total non-issue, which was solidified once Sun was off the island.
Yeah, pretty much. There was some lip service paid to it in season four, when Juliet would insist on Sun having to get off the island before she came to term or else she died, but otherwise, yeah, the fertility stuff just kinda faded away.
Teebore said: "No, you've got that all right...."
And I said: "Well, I'll be damned!" Wonders never cease, do they?
You're thinking I should've kept reading but I stopped there deliberately because I wanted to just savor that for a minute. THEN I'll go see what else you said. Thanks Teebore! :)
@Gracie: If you buy the DVD's, do you get anything that is NOT on the Blue Rays?
OR
If you buy the Blue Rays, do you get information that is NOT on the DVD's?
Generally speaking, Blu-Ray, in addition to higher picture and sound quality, will offer some extra features not found on the DVDs. Usually, these things are of no real consequence: an interactive game, maybe an extra, Blu-Ray exclusive interview or featurette, sometimes they'll have picture-in-picture commentary that runs alongside the movie/show. It really just depends on the movie/TV show.
You will rarely (I'd say probably never) find content on a DVD that isn't on a Blu-Ray, simply because the Blu-Ray is a higher price point and a newer, still-getting-established format, so they're trying to entice us to buy the spendier, newer product.
In the case of the Lost DVD sets versus Blu Ray, I'm not aware of any significant material available only on the Blu-Rays and not the DVDs (though there is some Blu Ray exclusive content, but I've never missed it. But then, I rarely watch the entirety of any DVD/Blu Ray extras; I have enough movies to watch as it is to spend some of that time watching stuff ABOUT the movie I just watched...).
I own the first five seasons of Lost on DVD and will probably get the sixth on Blu Ray (even though it will mar the shelf they all reside on with it's uniqueness) simply because I have a Blu Ray player now, and I watched the sixth season in HD.
I don't know if the added content everyone's talking about now (the feature which will address some unanswered questions) will be on only one format or both; if I had to guess, I'd say both, just because that's a huge selling point.
You can probably check the listings for Lost Season 6 on DVD and Blu Ray on Amazon.com (each will have it's own listing) to see the differences, if any, between the content of the two sets. They might not have all that info right now, but they will before 8/24 rolls around.
@Lisa(until further notice)
Thanks!! You made my day.
cont. to Teebore:
Right after I hit "Publish Your Comment" I remembered that Hurley got back just after Sawyer got caught, and I was just heading mentally into "Wasn't Juliet there too?" when I saw you had replied.
And you said: "Yeah, pretty much. There was some lip service paid to it in season four, when Juliet would insist on Sun having to get off the island before she came to term or else she died, but otherwise, yeah, the fertility stuff just kinda faded away."
Pardon me while I'm slow, but I'm just having a TOTAL revelation here. I assume you guys (personally AND here at the blog) picked up on this, but I did not. Well, yes, I knew that it had died down considerably. But I am just now realizing that in one episode we have a MAJOR issue of Ben trying to kidnap women and a MAJOR issue of a pregnancy dilemma. Then both of these MAJOR issues just up and died?? I know exactly what you mean about Sun so I'm good there, but the whole pregnancy thing was a really big deal that just died a lonely, hidden, very sudden death, and yes, I'm being completely honest when I say that I did not realize until just now how suddenly (and totally) they dropped that. Did any Other ever say anything? I'm guessing not, from what you're saying, so anything you guys here have is speculation.....but I'm assuming you (as a group) thought that was hinky? I'm very curious to know how the blog reacted to this sudden non-issue? WOW! I never realized just how quickly they dropped that like a hot potato, and they've never said anything since, beyond the agreed upon (between you and me) with Sun? WOW?!?!
Teebore, you probably know I have all of Nikki's books, but if I wanted to go have a looky-see, how far back in the blog can we go? Can I get to the end of Season Three if I tried? Is that still here somewhere? For clarification, I know everything you know probably, but just today I realized that this major story line was completely dropped quickly, and NOW I know why so many people were so upset when The End was over, and the pregnancy thing never came back up. It was a hot potato!!! And I just got the completeness and totalness of that just now. WOW!! Lots of anger there I would imagine. I need to spend some time with my "Finding Lost" books.
Do you know how far back the blog goes? Nikki are you still here?
@Gracie: Did any Other ever say anything? I'm guessing not, from what you're saying, so anything you guys here have is speculation.....but I'm assuming you (as a group) thought that was hinky?
As far as I can recall, no, no Other ever said anything more about it.
The speculation I'm most comfortable with is that the Incident blanketed the island with EM radiation that caused birthing problems, and Ben, given his history (his mother dying in childbirth like all the women on the island) became obsessed with it and used his position as leader of the Others to try and correct it.
But that's just speculation on the part of the audience. The writers, for whatever reason, decided that what was once a critical and seemingly important plotline on the show wasn't critical or important, after all, and dropped it/moved on to other things they felt were more critical and important.
Was it hinky? Well, I certainly can't speak for the entirety of Nikki's followers/readers, but I know SOME of us feel it is hinky (this is an example of the failure to adequately resolve the plot OF THE SHOW (as opposed to the plot of the season) that people like me, Blam, and Fred (amongst others) have been going on about since, roughly, "Across the Sea" aired and it became crystal clear that the writers had no intention/desire to wrapup Lost's central, overarching plot.
To be fair, though, no one knew exactly how hinky the dropping of the pregnancy plotline was until after the finale, when we knew with 100% certainty that it was dropped and wouldn't be resolved.
As for the scope of Nikki's blog, she can answer better than me, but I believe she has posts going back at least to the start of season three. I seem to remember reading those, at least.
You could also hop over to her separate Lost Rewatch blog that she started up last summer when conducting a rewatch of the show from seasons 1 to 5...each episode has an entry there, along with comments from many people familiar to you from here.
@Gracie: Sometimes Blu rays will have more content than the regular DVD's. My Blu ray connected to the internet so I could use the Lost University in the season five DVD. We will know better when they publish the extras that will come with the season six Blu Ray and DVD's.
Teebore: Your reply about Blu Ray vs. DVD's goes quite nicely with what I had already from Rufus, and if you recall, this came up because I was trying to remember where I saw the "Beach Dance" with Shannon/Sayid among others.
I've been all over YouTube and did a bit of searching at Lostpedia because I already know this will drive me nuts because I don't know where I saw that dance. Damn!
My Seasons One - Five DVD's came from Amazon, so that shouldn't matter, right? I knew I'd seen it (the dance) before, and I don't know where. From what was said, this was released in the U.K., so how did I get it?
If there is any additional forthcoming information following Six, as you suggested there might be, I would think that it would be on the DVD's as well as the Blu Rays, from a purely customer standpoint. That just seems like good business sense. Why put your strongest selling points on something that the majority of your customers do not have yet like Blu Ray? IMHO it should be on both. I think that due to it's release as soon as August, TPTB will know that.
I see your other post is up too on whether or not you agree that was "hinky". If I may be blunt, it sounds pretty damn hinky to me! I can't believe I just today realized how quickly and totally they dropped that?? I've seen so many people on-line since Sunday's finale, having a conniption fit or a breakdown over the pregnancy question, and I couldn't mentally put it together why. I think I just didn't get it because it's an old story line, but I DO NOW! I will have to give this some thought, but from my standpoint right now, your conclusion that this probably drove Ben to distraction because of his mother, as well as your theory on the EM radiation seem like good places to start to me.
You know, I wish they'd left out about half (maybe less than half) of the story line involving the Temple and Dogen. I understand it had to be there because it explained how Little Ben was saved so long ago after Sayid shot him, it continued the story line about the island's water and it's importance, and explains how Sayid could possibly live with his own bullet wound. BUT if they'd spent half the time on it that they did, they could have spent some time on things like this issue with the pregnancies and given people some very important answers. They wouldn't have had to change the ending, and I wouldn't have wanted that anyway. But there were some things I'd like to have known that they could have answered, such as this, if they'd spent a little less time at the Temple. Your anguish is understandable. (Remember my memory isn't always so good, and I haven't been here as long as you have). I'd like to know some simple things though, like who Jacob was to Ilana. They couldn't tell me that? Sounds simple, and from what I've seen, I think most of the questions are. Did Desmond ever have the full understanding that it was NOT his tardiness alone that caused the crashing of 815? Was his guilt eased a little by someone telling him he had some help with that plane coming down?
I have some reading to do, both on-line and "Finding Lost". I'm sure attention was paid to what was being said on the Internet when they dropped the pregnancy storyline, and I want to go back and see what the blog was saying at that time. I will be AFK for awhile, but thank you Teebore for your time and polite response to my complete astonishment. That's why I came here when I finally went somewhere. I knew the people on this blog took care of one another.
Rufus: I saw your reply too, so thank you also. I'm going away for awhile, but I should be back later on. If anyone figures out where I may have seen that dance, please let me know??
I couldn't wade through all 169 comments to find out if this was posted or not, so here you are:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/05/lost-exclusive-abc-sets-the-record-straight-about-the-series-finales-plane-crash-images.html
"The images shown during the end credits of the 'Lost' finale, which included shots of Oceanic 815 on a deserted beach, were not part of the final story but were a visual aid to allow the viewer to decompress before heading into the news," an ABC spokesperson wrote in an e-mail Tuesday.
I forgot to ask if you guys know something Spouse was wondering about:
When ABC (or any other network) puts up complete episodes on-line, how long do those usually stay there?
Does anyone have any idea? I'll be back later. Thank you in advance for any replies.
TO RAINIER: Last I heard possibly Saturday I'll be back on-line with an Inbox.
Here is proof of Rose and Bernard in the church:
http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/photo-details/the-end/440915/450406
Here is proof that Rose & Bernard were in the church:
http://abc.go.com/shows/lost/photo-details/the-end/440915/450406
Re Walt and Aaron:
I agree with everything else you said, but I have a slightly different theory on this and whether it was only Jack's farewell.
I think the people in the church were those who were most important to each other in that group - and a couple of tagalongs because of who was most important to THEM (Penny for Desmond since she was his constant). They were all frozen at the time they knew each other, and at the time where they came into their own as humans and rose above their faults and damage. They may have lived decades or centuries more, but this group of people goes out together because of one significant communal event.
Walt is not there because he was a child when it happened. He went on to have other significant events in his life, and other people who were more significant.
Aaron is not actually there. That Aaron, born in the sideways-world, is just a construct of their imaginations, like David is wish fulfillment on Jack's part. The real Aaron also grew to make other connections.
I'm guessing Ben stayed to wait for Alex's awakening and to go out with her group.
Same as Eko & Yemi were their own group.
re: the whole pregnancy thing.
I'm curious..with no pregnant woman in season 6 living on the island...how exactly does the pregnancy thing get addressed? Basically you'd have to have a character just tell you...maybe Dogan would what...drop the explanation into conversation. Look at some of the moaning about Michael when he just said "yeh the whisper are dead people"
So maybe it's not that the writers didn't care to tell us but that story has moved on and to introduce another pregnant character to repeat the same peril as first Claire then Sun just wouldn't have worked. It would be have been repetitive and how would they avoid the "so and so stands there and explains the plot" in a season that already had some of that happening.
this is one of those be careful what you wish for...the whole thing could have played as clunky as the whispers reveal and I can't believe there would not have been complaining.
@LT mcDi: t would be have been repetitive and how would they avoid the "so and so stands there and explains the plot" in a season that already had some of that happening.
Frankly, I'd take "the whispers" style explanation over no explanation (of course, a less direct explanation is better than "the whispers" explanation, but still, some explanation, no matter how awkwardly phrased, is better than nothing, IMO).
Of course, the other alternative is to have worked in a way to resolve the pregnancy plotline WELL BEFORE season six even began. After all, the season which marks the zenith of the pregnancy plot (three) is also the season where they got their ballyhooed end date.
So right then and there, they could have figured out (if they hadn't already, which they claimed they did) exactly when and how to resolve that plot in a non-awkward, non-shoehorned way sometime in the next three seasons.
Instead, they pushed it aside and seemed to say "we'll get to it if we get to it" and then they never got to it, despite leading us to believe they had a plan and everything would, eventually, be "gotten to", so to speak.
@Fred(So you just misread what I wrote, and really I should be clearer in the way I write.)
Not at all, you're posts are crystal clear! i should concentrate more :P
(Let's move on to something else: the source in the cave and the appearance there of the water trough to the source, and the big stone stopper. I'll do it as a story:)
That's very interesting. I like to follow your posts because you show a full insight into anything LOST related and you seem to have lots of theories that can help us understand the mysteries of LOST! keep posting more :D
(We see in the hieroglyphs under the Temple a priest praying to the smoke monster, so this had gone on for some time.)
Hmm, i think the egyptians and the statues came after jacob became the protector of the island. So Jacob's brother was in fact the first smoke monster..... UNLESS as u suggested below:
(Perhaps Mother was a smoke monster, as by this time the Egyptians had left(im assuming they came after), and the Romans had ascended in power. If Mother was a smoke monster, she fulfilled two roles, that of the protector and the security device.)
This made me think. What if jacob was supposed to have these 2 jobs, but because mother always wanted his BROTHER to be the protector she planned that jacob would be the protector and his brother would be the security device. ensuring that Mib would never be able to leave the island.
(Mother could finally die once she had handed over the role of protector to Jacob, a change over that returned her to mortality, the reason MiB could kill her. Similarly, once Jack became the new protector, MiB probably was mortal, but no one knew it.)
There's something i wanted to clarify that i got a bit confused.
When we see flocke guide the people and ben to the statue. flocke asks ben to kill jacob.
it's true that jacob was immortal, but he was not invincible. ben simply stabbed him to death.
On the other hand flocke was both immortal AND invincible because he could not be shot or stabbed etc.
The reason kate was able to kill flocke in the end was because the of the stone in the light was removed. jack simply died because he was like jacob. immortal but not invincible.
This is why i think jacob was always in hiding. communicating with his people through lists, hiding in his cabin that moved from place to place, so that people would not easily kill him.
Back to the mother. if we assumme she was like jacob. then her dying is no shock, but if we go with the theory where mother is also a smoke monster then her dying would seem shocking.
I keep saying over and over. i sometimes do not make any sense. i'm just writing whatever comes to me and i hope you guys understand what i'm saying :D
@Gracie
The dancing on the beach scene was a Lost promo by Channel 4 in the UK.It was directed by a well known fashion photographer and music video director (so well known I can't remember his name) with a song by Portishead (great English band - check them out)
I was living in the UK at the time and remember it well. They showed it a few weeks before the pilot and it caused quite a stir.
QAIS and Fred: If I may jump in here on your conversation? Please pardon me. I just refreshed the page, and that post was just staring at me looking all readable and tempting, so I succumbed to the temptation and read the damn thing.
If I'm reading this right, it is QAIS who says, "I keep saying over and over. i sometimes do not make any sense. i'm just writing whatever comes to me and i hope you guys understand what i'm saying :D"
If that was in fact QAIS, may I be so bold as to say, "QAIS, it makes bloody good sense to me!" If that was Fred speaking there, ditto to you, Fred! Stop trying to have it make sense; when did Lost ever make sense? It just has to fit together and work with the other pieces, right?
Now both of you please move along, and come up with something else equally brilliant, please??
Thanks. :o)
@Teebore:(Instead, they pushed it aside and seemed to say "we'll get to it if we get to it" and then they never got to it, despite leading us to believe they had a plan and everything would, eventually, be "gotten to", so to speak.)
I know! i was soooo sure Darlton would give me this amazing satisfying last season.
Frankly speaking season 6 was my least favorite except for a few amazing episodes!
From the beginning of the season i felt no interest in seeing the flashsideways world because they were not the characters I fell in love with in the first season. They were fakes of the characters living different lives. If it really was an alternate reality i would have swallowed that fully and really enjoyed it, seeing how thier lives turned out without the islands influence and jacobs touch.... don't get me wrong the last 15 min of the show was quite shocking! the writers did manage to make me gasp once again, but a few moments later i was like "wait so the flashsideways had nothing to do with the storyline at all?" That's when i was a bit dissappointed. Impressed and shocked, but dissappointed.
It was nice seeing everyone again. i keep saying that. i loved how all the characters appeared throughout this season and so i forgive darlton :P
MY ENDING:
it would have been much better if they ended the show with them remembering thier REAL life and realizing that eventhough their lives in the flashssideways is much happier, but it is nothing without the bond they created with the each other on the island, and that's when all of them would realize that thier lives onthe island was no curse, was not terrible, but blissfull and complete because there is where they found love, family, ever-tying bonds. and that is when jack or hurley or kate realize they are ready to spent eternity on the island protecting it TOGETHER!
LIIVE TOGETHER DIE ALONE that was the theme of the show.
What darlton did basically was take the purgatory theroy that almost everyone thought was back in season 1 and came back to tease us with the same thing in season 6.
That's why i'd like to forget about the limbo world and concentrate on the actual stroyline and try and resolve it.
Few more complaints about season 6. Dogen and Ilana! i was so happy these characters were introduced. I kept thinking. SMART! now they can show us flashbacks of these characters to answer questions about the show. both of them died early on without even saying one thing. they were all mysterious and annoying.
Also, there were so many deaths this season (juliet,sayid once, dogen, lennon, ilana, the others, temple people, jacob:P, sun and jin, and sayid for the second time. That by the episode "the candidate" I seriously did not know who to be sad over. sun and jin for dying and leaving there daughter and orphan, sayid for saving thier asses and dying a hero, kate for being fatally wounded, lapidus for drowning, sawyer for being hurt.... That episode sorta stopped any emotions i had because i realized.. HEY it's the end, those characters obviously won't be the winning candidates and if they have more screen time we won't get any answers.
We still didn't....:(
Back to your comment Teebore:
My theory on the pregnancies is:
Mib can only leave the island if there were no protector to it. no next jacob. so he simply had to corrup or kill those he can. So i think he killed any baby born on the island basically to stop jacob from raising one of them under his guide and nurture and appointing him the next protector (this is the strategy mother used) and to explain why aaron was born and alex was because he sympathised for them because like him they were from across the sea.
@GRacie:(If I'm reading this right, it is QAIS who says, "I keep saying over and over. i sometimes do not make any sense. i'm just writing whatever comes to me and i hope you guys understand what i'm saying :D"
If that was in fact QAIS, may I be so bold as to say, "QAIS, it makes bloody good sense to me!")
Hi Gracie, yes it was me QAIS who said that. Anything i quote from anyone else here, i keep it in brackets. I'm quite new here so i don't really know how to use the bold and italics.
When i say i'm new here i mean new at posting and voicing my opinions. I've been following Nikki's blog for over 3 years now, but whenever i used to WANT to comment on something before someone always beat me to the punch. and i felt there was no need in repeating the same information again.
Now that LOST is over and DARLTON have pretty much left us all alone to figure out the answers by ourselves. It's time i came out of hiding!
Please join in Gracie with your theories too, i'd love to read them. Shout out to everyone else. Please we have to crack the code on LOST. I need closure and frankly the finale did not do that for me. So until then (could take years and years) i'm gonna check back every once in a while to see what Nikki has come up with.
Thank you guys for all your comments and i'm so happy nikki's blog did not die with the end of THE END :D
I have a desmond question...
Was Desmond able to travel from Limbo to the Island...cause what was that comment he made to Jack right befor entering the golden light cave...about how he sat next to Jack on the plane and that Jack seemed happy?? That plane trip was after the H-Bomb..thus it was A limbo plane ride....ok any help on this would be great!
QAIS: You are making me weep here!! Lots of good thinking going on there!!
Teebore: His pregnancy theory goes back to what we were yakking about earlier today. I find his theory quite acceptable. What do you think?
Excuse me, I have to go wring out my tissues again.
[Reposted from the comment on today's live chat blog]
I think the key to the entire series can be found in Season 6 #15 ("Across The Sea"), in the scene where Jacob's brother tells him, "One day, you can make up your own game and everyone else will have to follow your rules."
To me, this implies that nothing is really unchangeable in the universe of LOST. ("Nothing is irreversible," as we are told a few times during the final season.) The producers and writers of LOST (who are the "guardians" of this universe) gave themselves a great amount of storytelling freedom with this. Accordingly, they made up their own rules to suit their story's purposes -- and so, not everything that took place during the series had to make logical sense to us at all times.
Of course, this can be very frustrating to those who look for consistency and known rules. . .
QAIS: Good grief, Dear!
If you've been lurking, you must know that I am also a relative Newbie here. I have so many theories, I get reprimanded by "Anonymous" people for having them! (There are several different people who post "Anonymously" here, I believe. Some really belong, and you can tell by their attitudes. Others not so much, IMHO.)
Earlier today, as Fred can attest, I was on a roll mentally, but days like today are rare. Are you aware that I currently have a medical condition which has greatly affected my ability to lead anything vaguely resembling a normal life? If so, then you know that I post a lot, mainly because I cannot remember for any length of time what I was going to say if I don't get it on "paper" and just say it. These people think so deeply, and have such a wonderful hold on the facts of Lost, that I am happy to say that my condition has improved to some point, mentally, since I started posting here. You and I could really write a verse or two, I would think.
But I've taken myself off a "regular sleeping pattern" in order to appreciate Lost as much as possible, and again did not sleep last night. I'm so damn tired, I can hardly see through my peepers. I will have to catch you at another time, but I'm sure Fred can vouch for me that my theories and sometimes on point, and sometimes beyond the pale. I have a fearless imagination. But I have to be awake to do that. I am still prone to forgetting the simplest of facts, although that too is improving.
I also did my fair amount of lurking around the edges without ever coming forward until about late March, I think it was. I was being cautious, but that is foolish HERE. These people are unlike any you will find elsewhere. I'm sure that if you ask, any one of them, including my rested self, would be overjoyed to teach you the italics, bold or underscore. You just need to make sure that they know you're here, and then don't get trampled upon as they rush forward to help you! I'm sure you will know how to do it within no time.
I believe this will be my last post of the evening, or at least for a while. Like I said, my eyes are killing me. But you can post all you like! Please do! I love reading the theories, and I'll be checking back in from time to time. Besides, it's NOT like I'm the ONLY ONE here! Have at it, and post yourself silly! We'll enjoy reading them - all of us.
Nice to meet you New Poster. Hope to see you here often!
Gracie: Thank you so much for your warm welcome! I really feel like i belong here now! Maybe one day we could all make our own flashsideways world and meet each other there. (see, i can't function anymore, everythought i have has to connect with lost someway or another :S)
Like you i havn't been having regular sleep patterns since the finale. i seriously need to get some sleep it's 4:45 AM here!
Ok i just went over and looked at Teebore's speculation regarding the pregnancy issue which is:
(The speculation I'm most comfortable with is that the Incident blanketed the island with EM radiation that caused birthing problems, and Ben, given his history (his mother dying in childbirth like all the women on the island) became obsessed with it and used his position as leader of the Others to try and correct it.)
The way i understood it was that ben was the leader of the others and supposedly he got his orders from jacob via richard. I don't remember which season or episode this was mentioned, but it was mentioned that claire was kidnapped because jacob wanted it to, same explanation was given as to why walt was kidnapped (i think in the lost webisodes where juliet and ben are talking about room 24 was it?)
So that explains why ben was obsessed with the issue, becasue it was jacob's order.
Regarding the point where the incident caused the EM radiation, causing pregnancy problems... that was also my version of the answer.... until Across the Sea was aired... mib throws a metal knife where it magnetically gets stuck to the well... and we find out the well leads down to the light. So i assumed that the electromagnetism properties was due to the light source.
It is true the incident causd the release of this electromagentism which NOW i'm assuming was the light's powers all along. the swan hatch was built over it to contain its energy so it shouldnt have caused a permenant effect on childbirth... if the EM was in fact the cause of the pregnancy problems, then that would make you think.... then there should be other diseases linked to EM not just pregnancies.
So you see now why i came up with the theory that smokey is the cause of the pregnancy problems? because i think the other theory has many inconsistincies.
My theory would make sense why jacob would order the kidnap of pregnant women, so that he could raise the baby according to his way of life and appoint him the next island protector.
LOL it's 5:15AM now!
@LT McDI: re:pregnancy thing.
The episode "Across the Sea" helped me understand to motives of Jacob more. He created the Smoke Monster. He's been spending a long time trying to fix that mistake. Humanity needed time to evolve enough to bring change to the island.
I think that the lists that always included any children on the island was a way to get the children to the temple where they would be most safe. Not a perfect idea but consider that Jacob is more than 2000 years old. He's been changing with the times but he did make his own set of rules and spent hundreds of years trying to find his own loophole. I don't think his loophole was only to kill his brother but to find someone like Hurley. Then he could leave.
@QAIS: Please join in Gracie with your theories too, i'd love to read them. Shout out to everyone else. Please we have to crack the code on LOST. I need closure and frankly the finale did not do that for me. So until then (could take years and years) i'm gonna check back every once in a while to see what Nikki has come up with.
Thanks for the blanket invitation and welcome to the board.
A theory of mine is that Jacob represents religious thought where only a few people qualify for a special place. As Jacob lived longer he got to see the world as he had been in it finding candidates. In Jack he finds a classic hero who does the obvious heroic deeds but can suffer because he tends to forget those around him. Then we get Hurley who when he finds fortune (money) he see's it as a curse. How can he enjoy so much while everyone else has so little. His joy comes from sharing.
Now to the ceremony where the mantle of protector of the island is passed on. Jacob uses a phrase like "you are like me" which is still a little like us and them keeping everyone else as the other. When Jack gives that power to Hurley telling him the he was like him I think that Hurley can't go with the us and them, he tries to help everyone. I somehow think that he would help who ever ends up on the island. I think he would help those whispers who have been trapped by their actions including Michael. He would return Desmond and every living person who wanted to go, home. Hurley would think in terms of "we are all the same".
I hope I make even a little sense.
I have a question:
Desmond when being fried in strong EM field seems to be able to experience the alternate time-line/world.
This does not make sense if such alternate time-line is merely afterlife recollection - does Desmond experiencing afterlife world whenever he is in such strong EM field?
I think it is better to interpret the alternate time-line as real alternate universe, its connection with our own world being created after the bomb exploded in the island.
However in this view I have difficulty to explain the last scene, and what Christian was saying.
@QAIS:
Mib can only leave the island if there were no protector to it. no next jacob. so he simply had to corrup or kill those he can. So i think he killed any baby born on the island basically to stop jacob from raising one of them under his guide and nurture and appointing him the next protector (this is the strategy mother used) and to explain why aaron was born and alex was because he sympathised for them because like him they were from across the sea.
But then why did Smokey allow Ethan to be born on the island in 1977?
That's the birth that seems to cutoff Jacob and MiB from responsibility for the pregnancy issue, and the biggest island event post-Ethan's birth is the Incident, which is what leads some people to point to it as the cause of the problem.
It is true the incident causd the release of this electromagentism which NOW i'm assuming was the light's powers all along. the swan hatch was built over it to contain its energy so it shouldnt have caused a permenant effect on childbirth...
Think of it this way: the EM energy is oil, and the Incident was a massive oil spill, that blanketed the island in oil. The Swan station stopped the oil spill, and as long as that button gets pushed, no more oil gets out.
But there's still a ton of oil covering the island from the Incident (no one ever cleaned it up), and it's that "oil" that is preventing pregnancies.
if the EM was in fact the cause of the pregnancy problems, then that would make you think.... then there should be other diseases linked to EM not just pregnancies.
Remember that the EM energy has time travel properties, and that Juliet described the wombs of women who conceived babies on the island to be much older than they really are. I can see a link there. Should the Incident's "oil spill" of energy caused other health problems? Yeah, probably, but maybe that same energy's healing properties prevented all but pregnancy related issues for some reason.
Honestly, I'm not married to this theory. It's just one of the more compelling ones I've encountered. And since Darlton couldn't be arsed to finish telling their story, we'll probably never know the real answer, and nothing but our theories to go on.
@teresa: Was Desmond able to travel from Limbo to the Island...cause what was that comment he made to Jack right befor entering the golden light cave...about how he sat next to Jack on the plane and that Jack seemed happy??
The way I see it, when Island Desmond was bombarded with EM energy by Widmore, he saw the Sideways world but didn't know it was a purgatorial afterlife, instead believing it to be an alternate reality.
Hence his words to Jack in "The End" that none of the island stuff matters because he's seen a world where they aren't on the island.
@Rufus: (When Jack gives that power to Hurley telling him the he was like him I think that Hurley can't go with the us and them, he tries to help everyone. I somehow think that he would help who ever ends up on the island. I think he would help those whispers who have been trapped by their actions including Michael. He would return Desmond and every living person who wanted to go, home. Hurley would think in terms of "we are all the same".)
Hurley would definitely do that! He's awesome!
@tytung: (I have a question:
Desmond when being fried in strong EM field seems to be able to experience the alternate time-line/world.
This does not make sense if such alternate time-line is merely afterlife recollection - does Desmond experiencing afterlife world whenever he is in such strong EM field?
I think it is better to interpret the alternate time-line as real alternate universe, its connection with our own world being created after the bomb exploded in the island.
However in this view I have difficulty to explain the last scene, and what Christian was saying.)
Actually it makes perfect sense. The Limbo world is where they all died, it is NOT an alternate timeline created because of the incident.
To explain how desomond was able to see LIMBO, is because he died momentarily and he was able to see what was going on in LIMBO, and because he is SPECIAL, he didn't truly die.
Desmond's character on its own was a mystery on the show. He can see visions of the future, travel back and forth through time etc. So him experiencing LIMBO should not come as a surprise to his many many GIFTS. I hope that makes sense :D
@Teebore: (But then why did Smokey allow Ethan to be born on the island in 1977?)
Shit! I totally forgot about that! i did come up with a counter argument for that though :P Just bear with me for a second i think i'm finally on to something.
Smokey felt no need to kill Ethan because of the treaty between Jacob's people and the Dharma people. So eitherway Jacob could not TAKE Ethan. Smokey did however start killing infants after the purge. The time when Ben took over as leader, he killed the infants FROM jacob's people.
(Honestly, I'm not married to this theory. It's just one of the more compelling ones I've encountered. And since Darlton couldn't be arsed to finish telling their story, we'll probably never know the real answer, and nothing but our theories to go on.)
It is a compelling theory, one that is number 2 on my list, unless you keep poking further holes into mine :P
See, i don't like these standalone theroies, i like to think that everything is connected to each other somehow. That's why when the writers finally answered what the whispers were i was thinking "That's it? There's no grander purpose for them?" That's why if anyone been following Fred & I have been trying to relate the island's whispers, the Limbo world, and the ghosts seen on the island into ONE unified theory...HAHA and i feel like a scientis who dicovered something life changing. That's how lost is impotant to me :P
“‘Lost’ finale bonus footage on DVD”: http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/
In an interview with G4's "Attack of the Show," "Lost" Emmy award winner Michael Emerson revealed that there is an "epilogue, a lost scene" on the upcoming "Lost" DVD collection that was not part of the series finale this past Sunday.
Emerson hinted that it will be around 14 minutes in length, and will explain more about what happened after Jack died on the island and Hurley and Ben took over as its protectors.
We were given an idea in one of the final scenes that these two were on the island for a long period of time, in an exchange between the two characters while in purgatory, but this is the first time we've been told that we might actually see some footage of their time "in charge."
It's unclear whether this footage will be part of the sixth season DVD set, or only in the full series set.
Re: the pregnancy issues. Something I thought was curious was SMother got/needed the babies, and (I think) had a plan to raise one or both of them to take her place. I don't remember seeing any kids on the village MiB joined at age 13. All the kids with Dharma were either brought to the island or (possibly) conceived off island. The ONLY child conceived on island and brought to term that we know of is Ethan. I have seen others argue that perhaps he was conceived off island. Possible, but considering Amy and Horace were both on island when they began their relationship, it would have been an event for them to go off island, together, and conceive. And an even bigger event is they went off the island for that very purpose. (We don't know how long Miles' or Charlotte's parents were there - they could easily have been conceived on or off island as well).
So I'm not 100% sure we can say the fertility issues began with the incident. Even though it is highly likely Ethan was conceived on island, he is the only one we know of, and could quite possibly be the exception.
(I forgot to include Daniel as conceived on island and possibly born off island)
I'm with you tytung - I think it makes more sense as an alternate/parallel reality than somewhere you go after death and before whatever comes next.
I'm with you tytung - I think it makes more sense as an alternate/parallel reality than somewhere you go after death and before whatever comes next.
sorry folks - having trouble posting here - it seems to be twice or not at all !! :-)
Teebore-thanks.. I am pondering that maybe limbo/purgatory..what we believe it is..can actually be an alt reality..who says we can't have a joining of science and spirituality? It was difficult for me at first to wrap my brain around that Desmond could have seen the purgatory place....but not so much now...I love reading everyones posts..Thanks again for responding.
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