Wednesday, April 01, 2009

Lost 5.11: Whatever Happened, Happened

“The conversation already happened, but not for you and me. For you and me, it’s happening right now.”

WOW. You want answers?! This episode had answers!

Well, sort of. More like confirmations. I don’t think anything happened that some Lost fan didn’t predict in some sort of way. Except for Jack refusing to help Ben. THAT I didn’t see coming. But now we know what Sawyer said to Kate before he jumped, even though we’d figured that out already. However, this brings up a point I suggested in my season 4 book... why did Kate make a big deal about her favour for Sawyer to Jack in “Something Nice Back Home”? She says she’s doing something for Sawyer but won’t tell Jack what it is. Wouldn’t a simple, “Turns out he has a daughter, AND – wait til you hear this, this is REALLY weird – I actually knew her before we got on the plane, so I went to make sure his kid was OK and reconnected with an old friend, and now we hang out and the kids play. You can come on over and meet her if you’d like. How was your day?” But instead she’s all mysterious and weird and he freaks out and starts popping pills.

We know where Aaron went (also something we figured out) and why Kate returned to the island (again, we assumed that). But it was still cool to watch it happen.

Hurley versus Miles
The discussion/argument between Hurley and Miles pretty much mirrors the same discussions we’ve had about time travel on this blog and on DocArzt’s, with some of the same exasperated responses and some of the same verbal illustrations to explain what is meant by linear and circular time. Hurley and Miles come off as two fans in a forum discussing the show. (In fact, I think it was on my column last week on DocArzt’s blog where someone joked that maybe older Ben will look down and notice his hand disappearing... I laughed out loud when Hurley used the same analogy here!)

Miles describes time as being relative to oneself. For them, the years go 197? (whenever they were born) to 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977... For Ben they go forward, and the “past” they’re in right now is Ben’s present. Miles is convinced that whatever happened, happened, and you can’t change it. Hurley, the lover of comics and reader/watcher of several stories of going back in time to change the past, isn’t so convinced. Is Miles right, and if so, where did he get his information from? Is it possible that THIS is his real usefulness? (We were discussing this week on the blog how Miles doesn’t seem to have lived up to the immense potential he had as a ghost whisperer.)

“You Look Just Like Her”
There are a couple of lines from season 4 that I can’t stop thinking about. One of them was when the psychiatrist tells Juliet that Ben is obsessed with her because “you look just like her.” His mother? A girlfriend? Now I’m starting to be convinced that the person she looks just like... is herself. Roger stands in the room where Ben is struggling to breathe, and tells Kate that what a boy really needs is his mother. Cut to Juliet standing over him, looking concerned and leaning down to help him. According to Alpert, he’s going to forget everything that happened up to the point where the Others took him, but maybe Juliet mothers him in some way after this moment, and he’ll remember that and become obsessed with her years later.

“I Know Who You Are, Boy. WHAT You Are.”
The other line is one Charles Widmore delivers to Ben when Ben comes to visit him in the night and tells him that he’s going to kill Penny (Shape of Things to Come). I’ve always been unnerved by Widmore saying he knows WHAT he is, and he also says that they both know Widmore can’t kill Ben. In this episode, Alpert takes Ben to his camp and says Ben will never be the same. Then the one hostile says to Richard that Ellie and Charles will freak out if they find out, they being Eloise (presumably) and Charles Widmore, whom we saw as young soldiers in 1954. Is whatever Richard’s about to do going to render Ben immortal in some way? It’s going to deprive him of his innocence, whatever that means, and this act could be the reason Widmore refers to Ben as a “what” in this scene.

Highlights:
• Jack: “You’re telling us we’re under house arrest?” Miles: “No, you’re free to leave whenever you want. But I’ll shoot you in the leg.”
• Juliet letting Jack have it as he gets out of the shower.
• The scene of Kate saying goodbye to Aaron. It’s the most I’ve cried over a scene this season. What a heartbreaking scene to watch, especially if you’re a parent.
• Locke’s final line.

Did You Notice?:
• There didn’t appear to be a noticeable exit wound on Ben’s back. Maybe it went through his side and that’s why there’s no blood?
• Kate’s got her Patsy playing again. An interesting choice, since Kate’s got Sawyer’s picture in her mind, but Juliet’s got him. (not that Kate knows that yet...)
• Kate sings “Catch a Falling Star” to Aaron, which is the song that Christian always sang to Claire when she was a baby.
• After Sawyer and Miles took off with the janitor’s keys, leaving Horace and Phil behind in the cell room, Phil had a look on his face like something wasn’t right. I think he’ll be the one to eventually unravel Sawyer’s happy little fairy tale.
• For all his snark, Miles seems to fall into the role of being Sawyer’s underling pretty easily, and takes orders from him without ever talking back.
• There’s been much talk (more than I’d like) about the ships on the show right now, but this episode seemed to put Kate on her own... at least, on the surface it did. She confronts Jack and tells him she doesn’t like the new him, and he responds that she didn’t like the old him, either. The insinuation is that he always knew she had it for Sawyer, and not him. So when she asks Sawyer coyly why he came out to help her, we think he’ll profess his love to her, and even moreso when he calls her Freckles. But then he surprises us as much as Jack did, and says nope, he’s doing this for Juliet (whether or not he means it and isn’t just trying to convince himself that’s the case is something else entirely). It’s good to know once and for all that Kate came back to the island for Aaron and for Claire, and not for any of the boys. That said (and please don’t hate me, Jaters) I think from what Cassidy says to Kate – that Sawyer broke her heart and Aaron was there to fix it – that we know once and for all that her heart would have been with Sawyer if she truly had the choice. Cassidy would have gleaned that information from the conversations she’d had with Kate. And when Jack says that Kate didn’t like the old him, she doesn’t argue.
• We’ve seen so many horrible fathers on this show, and we haven’t really seen a flip side to most of them, but in Roger we finally see a father who knows he’s failed his son and is helpless to do anything about it. Suddenly Ben’s patricide seems worse than it originally seemed to us.
• I was GIDDY with excitement when the show flashed to the marina, and I realized this is the episode where we’d find out what happened with Kate no longer having Aaron.
• My son totally has that same brown sweater that Aaron is wearing.
• When Kate goes up to the guy to ask where the juice boxes are, he looks directly at her, and never do his eyes go down to look at Aaron. Then when she goes back to him to ask if he saw her son, he looks at her like she’s kinda crazy and says, “Your... son?” and as she runs away, he looks behind him as if to say to someone that she was nuts. Did anyone else think for a moment that Aaron was invisible in that scene or something? That grocery stock guy was very strange.
• Kate and Aaron are wearing the same clothes when they go to Cassidy’s, as if they hadn’t slept at all the night before.
• In the awesome smackdown scene between Juliet and Jack (did anyone else detect that maybe IF Sawyer has been pining for Kate, Juliet has been equally pining for Jack?) Jack says that he came back because he was supposed to, but doesn’t know any details. He sounds EXACTLY like Locke in this scene.
• I don’t mean to be unfair to Sun, but Kate looked far more broken up over leaving Aaron than Sun looked about leaving Ji Yeon.

Hurley’s numbers:
Kate loses Aaron while standing at the end of aisle 4.

So Many Questions...
• Where did Sayid go?
• The castaways spent three months combing nearly every square inch of that island. Why did they only ever find one VW van when it appears the DI camp had at least a half dozen of them?
• Why was the only doctor at the Looking-Glass station? Why does the DI only have one doctor?
• Is Kate really a universal donor? Why didn’t she give blood when Jack was draining his own arm into Boone’s?
• Is Miles right? If Hurley is the guy whose head was always buried in sci-fi comics, wouldn’t he have a better handle on time travel, or would he be following more of the Back to the Future model that sci-fi often follows, whereas Miles is following... a different one? (I’m loathe to say “scientific”...)
• Did Hurley just pwn Miles by suggesting that Ben doesn’t remember Sayid as the guy who shot him, or DOES Ben remember him as the guy who shot him? I know, I know... you’re going to say Alpert says Ben won’t have any recollection of Sayid doing any of this to him. But why, then, does Ben destroy Sayid after Sayid gets off the island, turning him into a ruthless killer? And, I guess, either way, Hurley didn’t win the argument because we now know why Ben doesn’t remember him (if you believe that).
• Is there any chance that Juliet is still on the side of the Others? Is it possible she was turned into one of them in much the same way Ben was at the end of this episode? She’s always known much more than she’s ever divulged, and now she’s turning Ben over to them.
• How fast does Aaron move? Kids move fast – I think every parent knows from experience – but she’s in the middle of the store and that Claire lookalike said she found him in the fruit section, which is always on the outer edge of the store. How did he get all the way over to the fruit section without her seeing him?
• Why doesn’t Kate tell Sawyer that she actually knew Cassidy ahead of time?
• When the Others come out of the woods, is one of them Bea Klugh? There’s a young woman in brown with long dreadlocked hair who comes at them as the guy says, “Do not move” who looks a lot like her.
• Why is Mrs. Littleton so hostile to Kate when she opens the door? The day before she welcomes Jack with open arms, but when Kate comes she hisses, “I know who you are.” Just because Jack was at her place ranting about “some person named Aaron” doesn’t mean Kate had anything to do with it. Even if he mentioned her name. *cough*
• Claire’s mom says to Kate, “Why didn’t you come to me in the first place?” and Kate answers that she needed Aaron. But wouldn’t the obvious answer be, “Because Claire told us all you were dead”?! She told Sun on the beach one day that her mother was dead, and Sun would have passed that on to Kate. So why would Kate have been looking for Claire’s mom if she assumed Claire was an orphan? She meets Mrs. Littleton for the first time at Christian’s funeral, and Aaron is 9 months old at that point, so she’s already very attached to him.
• When Kate leaves Aaron in the room, can we assume Mrs. Littleton is standing outside the door? Why would Kate leave him alone even if he’s just two doors down from her?
• What did Richard mean when he says Ben won’t be the same? That he’ll lose his innocence?
• Will ROSE AND BERNARD be inside that Temple? Sigh. I miss them.
• Richard takes Ben to the same spot where Rousseau lost her crew (now we see why we flashed back to that). Does the spot have the same effect on Ben as it did on them, or has it changed? Or did they fall into the smoke monster part of it, whereas Alpert takes him to the inside of the Temple? (If that is indeed what it is.)
• Does Smokey actually exist in 1977? They don’t seem to have had any run-ins with him back then.
• The end of the episode has Locke deliver his awesome line, “Welcome back to the land of the living.” But does the line mean more than that? Is it possible that by returning to the island, Ben has somehow undone what Richard did to him? If he was “undead” after what Richard did to him, has something changed?

Maybe next week we’ll find out:

145 comments:

Nancy said...

Awesome recap! I read these all the time but I rarely comment because usually everyone's saying something I'm thinking only in much more insightful and elegant language, but I felt the need this time!
Hate to start off talking about "shipping" stuff, but I just had to say that I, too, detected a hint of tension with Juliet in terms of Jack. The way she looked at Kate when she told her that she and Jack had been engaged and the way she was acting around Jack made me think that maybe she's holding a torch for him still. Also, I consider myself neither a jater nor a skater (and, oddly, after the episode I found the twisted part of me rooting for a Roger Linus/Kate ship :) ), but I have to disagree about Kate being "heartbroken" over Sawyer. Rather, I sort of saw the whole "Kate pining for Sawyer thing with Cassidy" as being a bit of manufactured drama to make us think that Kate came back to the island for Sawyer, and then turned out to be a typical Lost switcheroo when we find out she came back to find Claire! Brilliant.

As far as Miles/Hurley goes, that scene where Miles goes "huh, never thought of that" was made of win! Hurley is the man!

I'm really looking forward to finding out what exactly went down with Ben in the "temple" with Richard. REALLY hope we find out some specifics, if we don't get to see the actual scene.

Lindsay said...

Kate didn't get to donate when Boone was dying because she was helping Claire give birth to Aaron. She was unaware of what was going on back in the caves.

Benny said...

@Nancy: Welcome to the club! Comment more often, it'll be fun!
@Nikki: Good recap. I'll put my thought on some of your comments near the end.


Ben DID NOT expect to see Locke alive... his reaction really showed that I think.

I really loved Jack's reason for not helping, saying he had done it for Kate to help Sawyer, he's not doing it again. Also, I loved that what he was going to do is "make some sandwiches".

A lot of answers, despite being overwhelmingly good and filling some holes (as told by our dear Nikki), I still found some points irritating.

Even though I loved the hilarity between Miles and Hugo, I would have punched Hugo in the face so hard. In that scene he seemed so clueless and idiot-like. For the longest time he still couldn't distinguish between the idea of two times. ARGH!

I find that they've opened a door with Kate telling the truth to Cassidy and Carole. I don't think it's going to lead to anything, especially since she's helping them they likely won't talk. But it could be scary since they could find it profitable to share this information.

Even though it fits within the history and mystery of the show, I hate how Richard's line of fixing/changing Ben kinda explained some potential inconsistencies (not remembering and all...)


Here are some tentative answers:

Kate's secrecy regarding Sawyer's request.
I think that, since Jack was away from Kate for a long time before they got together, she hadn't originally told him because he'd feel she still had feelings for her and wouldn't actually go back to her. And after they were together, he would resent she hadn't told him before. It's Kate's nature to hid a lot of things from many people. This fits more with her nature than traditional "would it not have made more sense" reasoning.


Is Miles right, and if so, where did he get his information from?
I'd say Daniel... I think more of Miles will come, I read that there was a casting call for a young asian actor, but I don't know how young or if it's true. I don't remember if it said it was for Miles or if they speculated.


Did anyone else think for a moment that Aaron was invisible in that scene or something?
I thought something had changed and Aaron hadn't been born/left the island. Only Kate remembered him and the clerk didn't remember a boy because to him he had never been there.


I don’t mean to be unfair to Sun, but Kate looked far more broken up over leaving Aaron than Sun looked about leaving Ji Yeon.
That totally true, but here's my take on it: to some extent, Sun is going to get her husband and come back to raise their son. Kate, on the other hand, is going to get Aaron's mother so she can raise him, this is her last moment as his mother.


Is Kate really a universal donor? Why didn’t she give blood when Jack was draining his own arm into Boone’s?
She was getting Claire and eventually delivering. Was she originally there when he asked for blood? (will watch tomorrow) Maybe she found out in the three years.


Ben/Sayid
It might actually be Ben's intentions to protect everyone and Sayid's past and circumstances (read Nadia) make him the best candidate for Ben to recruit. Maybe not!


Ellie/Eloise This will be answered near the end of the season. I used to think they were the same person but now I don't think they are. This is only an opinion, I have my reasons and I'll leave it at that.

Benny said...

*by their son I obviously mean daughter... got caught on Aaron there!

Benny said...

Third comment in a row? You bet!

From the trailer for next week, I found one line REALLY interesting:

Ben: "I broke the rules John."

fb said...

one thing i loved about this episode: almost all the lostaways are, in their own way, responsible for ben becoming, well ... ben. what i mean is, little ben was just another boy who hadn't turned into big ben yet. but by going back in time, the lostaways set in motion the chain of events that made him the awful person he is as an adult. it wasn't just sayid shooting him ... it was that plus jack refusing to help him, plus juliet operating on him, plus kate donating her blood, plus saywer helping kate take him to the others that led him to richard who said that once he took ben "he won't ever be the same again." presumably, richard does *something* to ben to make him go down the road to the sociopath we all know and love (to hate) as a grown up. but if all the losties hadn't done those various things, ben would never be presented to richard in the first place to 'save'. so ben grew up to be the losties' worst nightmare ... but they are the ones who are responsible for creating the nightmare in the first place.

my mind, it is blown!

thomwade said...

"• Did Hurley just pwn Miles by suggesting that Ben doesn’t remember Sayid as the guy who shot him, or DOES Ben remember him as the guy who shot him? I know, I know... you’re going to say Alpert says Ben won’t have any recollection of Sayid doing any of this to him. But why, then, does Ben destroy Sayid after Sayid gets off the island, turning him into a ruthless killer? And, I guess, either way, Hurley didn’t win the argument because we now know why Ben doesn’t remember him (if you believe that)."

Actually, I am quite confident Ben will only just now remember being shot. The rules established so far show that the Losties do something and years later the person "develops" the memory. If it's been true for Daniel(season 4-the Constant), Richard and Desmond, I see no evidence that it would not be the same for Ben.

Benny said...

@thomwade: that's a good point, and I like it. I do have this issue with 2004-Dan talking with Desmond in the past and 2007-Desmond remembering. There is a three year difference between their historical selves.

It would make sense for our current story since it's 2007-travelers doing something in Ben's past and 2007-Ben remembering, that is within the same historical time.

As I said, I like this theory but, unless there has been a production error, there is more at play than just that. It's a good starting point though.

Benny said...

@thomwade: again... sorry, I considered a different encounter.

Your suggestion fits the whole theory. I think that because it was Desmond's mind traveling and it was mostly his 1996 self AND body in play.

I'm not sure which encounter with Richard you're referring to. Could you enlighten me?

Hunter said...

I've been thinking about how Richard said Ben would be changed and lose his innocence. Does anyone else think this is what happened to Claire? Up until now, I assumed she died either in the explosion in her house or after Christian took her. But perhaps, she simply lost her innocence (and whatever else that entails) and that's the Claire we see in the cabin. Presumably, the change makes her an other, so she's been with that group, alive and well, for the past 3 years.

Deborah said...

best moment = Hurley and Miles talking about time travel.

joshua said...

Have I said lately that this season rules? ‘Cause it totally does.

So… it’s JACK that made Ben what he is. Ass! Yeah, I know Sayid shot him and all, but at least he took action. I love the way they're illustrating that predestiny doesn’t mean surrender. How long before Jack gets the same speech again from someone else? (Although, admittedly, I kind of loved “I’m making sandwiches.”)

Juliet really didn’t look to me like she wanted to entertain the possibility of asking Alpert for help, but she also lied to Kate about the head start almost immediately thereafter, so who knows.

Juliet, by the way? Kicks ass, regardless.

Patsy Cline’s ‘She’s Got You’ was the same used in “Eggtown,” no?

The whole scene between Kate & Ms. Littleton was just awesome. And “I’m going back to find your daughter” = Evangeline Lilly’s best line delivery in the history of the show.

Did you notice the bearded “Violation of The Truce” Other’s very piratey shirt? Reminded me of the one Richard was wearing when he first met Ben by the creek. Hand-me downs from the Black Rock crew?

I loved having good old wisecracking Sawyer back for a moment with “Don’t worry – we’ve got ‘em right where we want ‘em” as he and Kate are escorted to Alpert at gunpoint.

Speaking of whom… did it seem to anyone else that Richard kind of needed to steel himself before going into the temple, or was that just him throwing his weight into that big stone door? Because he didn’t really look scared to go in, but he didn’t look too excited about it, either.

And Locke? Made me grin. Huge.

Rules, I say.

Genevieve said...

OMG, I absolutely <3 Hurley! Nikki, you're right--the scene with him and Miles was like fans of the show talking passionately about it. I loved the tongue-in-cheekness of it all!

Nikki:• My son totally has that same brown sweater that Aaron is wearing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Did anyone else think for a moment that Aaron was invisible in that scene or something? I totally thought something like that!!! Like Aaron's existence was just part of Kate's imagination.

(did anyone else detect that maybe IF Sawyer has been pining for Kate, Juliet has been equally pining for Jack?) Yepper, I did.

• Why doesn’t Kate tell Sawyer that she actually knew Cassidy ahead of time?
Yeah, please refresh my memory--did we see Kate at some point figure out that the Cassidy that Sawyer whispered apparently quite audibly to Kate in a loud-ass helicopter about = the same Cassidy Kate met? Kate didn't seem surprised to see it was the same person she met before; she seemed to have already known they were one in the same.

Ali Bags said...

So good to see Richard again - that man has some charisma

I quite like the new Jack, and yes, my thought was - he's become the man of faith!

For once, I actually don't want to know all the answers, for some reason this episode has made me all chilled and willing to go with the flow. Maybe Jack's attitude is rubbing off on me or maybe because it ended with Locke being all Yoda like.

Ambivalentman said...

Nikki -- as always, your recap is one of the best in the business. I love your insights. This week, I especially loved the one about all the Dharma buses lying around. It was the first thing I thought about when I saw them in this episode. Maybe the Others have them parked somewhere very remote on the Island?

Personally, I think this episode ranks as one of the best of the season and truly re-established Kate as one of the most original characters. I have felt for some time that she was getting stale, and here the writer's gave us a reason to love her: she wants to be a mother. I am convinced now that she is pregnant with Jack's child and that their child will be the first child born on the Island post-Ethan's birth.

As for the love "quadrangle," I felt a bit differently than most. I think it really put a reprieve on it for a while. We learned that there is really no hope for Kate and Jack (maybe an unexpected pregnancy will change that), or Juliet and Jack (come on, she didn't even take a moment to check him out once he stepped out of the shower!). Kate and Sawyer are now a long shot, and I was absolutely impressed with Sawyer's line at the conclusion of his talk with Kate, "I've grown up a lot since you left."

Lastly: did you catch the "Star Wars" reference when Sawyer says, "I've got them where I want them?" How very Han Solo.

Thanks again, Nikki!

Deborah said...

A few things to add after reading Nikki's comments and those of other posters:
Fhere is another line that was repeated tonight though not from a season past. When the DI dude asks Kate to work the wench he says, "you have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?" just like Juliet said to her last week when she was giving Kate a tour of the motor pool shop.

Kate and Aaron look like they slept in their clothes when they arrive at Cassidy's because they probably have. You have to drive across Arizona to get to New Mexico from LA. That is where Cassidy lives, isn't it?

The whole scene in the grocers was odd. Aaron disappeared VERY fast and the woman who had him by the hand was so not heading to have her finding him announced over the loudspeaker. That scene and the Claire look-alike (at least from behind) was put in to set up Kate and Cassidy's conversation about why Kate kept Aaron and her subsequent giving Aaron to Claire's mum and heading back to the island to find Claire.

And speaking of Kate giving Aaron to Ms. Littleton.....I said to my family there is no way I would leave a sleeping child alone in a strange room, even if his Grandma is just 2 doors down. I did not think Ms. Littleton was just outside the door waiting to come in: Kate closed the door behind her. I also would not leave a 3 year old with a stranger without introducing him to her, even if she is his grandmother.

I too thought that Richard hesitated before going into the temple, as if he did not want to go in there. If it is true that Ben becomes immortal in the temple, why does he grow up (aka age) when Richard, who also appears to be immortal, never seem to age?

Lastly, I don't think that if Kate is pregnant with Jack's baby there is still any chance of Kate and Jack getting back together.

R.S said...

*sigh* I feel this is going to be long.

What a great freakin' episode. As it was going through the paces I thought it would be just like last weeks "He's Our You" fill in Kate's past exploits and deal with the young Ben situation. The last five minutes blew me away. Kate's story was also pretty solid.

Even though most people (especially on this blog) guessed that Sawyer asked Kate to find Clementine, Kate gave Aaron to his Grandmother and Kate was back to find Aaron's mum (Claire). But regardless even though we already knew it would happen they had to dedicate screen time to show us this was the case.

- Can I just say even though I was doubted it seems I was right last week regarding Ben's trauma causing him to not remember what happened. Even though I had no idea it would be Richard's Magical Medicine that will wipe his mind like a droid.

So Ben doesn't know Sayid in that fateful room in the Swan Station. Hmmm. Hurley and Miles' (yay more Miles)conversation would further back this up.

- Speaking of that conversation I agree with Benny, even though it was a great scene I'd so punch Hurley for being so dense. But good job for being the voice of the audience or at least the non-believers.

- Momentarily through the episode I would think *sign* still no Locke. I was resigned to waiting another week to see him and Ben. The last scene was a very pleasant surprise.

- Still no Faraday :( I can wait for more Desmond but not for long.

- Next weeks promo looks awesome.

- Speaking of - more TEMPLE!!!! I also thought Richard pausing at the doorway was odd. But I've since figured he was pushing open the door with his back. I didn't actually see the door at first.

- Richard being in the episode was awesome even though I noticed his name in the credits in the beginning I didn't work out he'd be instrumental in saving young Ben.

- That's now three losties who have been instrumental in making Ben Ben either through action or inaction. Sayid, Jack and Kate. You could probably say Sawyer too.

- I can't remember what was said verbatim but when Richard brushed off the fact that Charles and Ellie may have a problem with what was going to happen I cheered. He says he doesn't answer to them with some authority. Still the bad-ass.

That also confirms to us that Widmore and Ms Hawking are still on the Island in 1977. There's a good chance Penny will have been born on the Island too if I was to guess at her age.

-I'd really like to see a '74 - '77 flashback episode with nothing but Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Jin and their Dharma life. Though I don't know we'll get it. Maybe when they explain to us where Faraday is.

- I for one like the old Jack, but I also definitely like the new Jack too. I'll probably lose some friends for that comment.

- I don't think Kate told Sawyer about previously knowing Cassidy pre-815 because that's just too much exposition for the writers. The only example of them actually doing this that I can think of was the conversation between Jack and Sawyer about his Jack's father and of course the Sawyer / Locke connection.

- If I was forced to come up with a reason why Kate didn't just spill the beans to Jack post engagement about what she was doing in regards to Sawyer and Cassidy, I'd say it was because Kate told Cassidy the truth about 'The Lie' and she didn't want this exposed to Jack.

- Don't fret Nikki, I too though it might be possible for a moment that Kate was 'imagining' toddler Aaron. I freaked when I saw the blonde women. I was like "Yes! Claire!" but alas.

- I'm like Kate, I'm definitely not a hater, but she got owned by both Jack and Sawyer this episode and it was delicious.

- Smokey does exist in 1977 and the D.I are aware of it from what I believe. If you remember one of the orientation videos I think it was the one that welcomed the new recruits (Ben and Roger)there was a remark made about the fence protecting them from the Island's "abundant and diverse wildlife". I always assumed this was a reference to Smokey since we know now that the fence doesn't stop the "Hostiles" well at least not Richard.

- The reason why the losties only found the one Dharma Van by my guess would be because at the time of the purge it was presumably the only one outside the confines of the the barracks, the one Ben and his father using.

As for what the Others ultimately did with the rest who's to say that there not locked up in the Dharma garage in some unseen part of the barracks, they'd have run out of fuel by now and therefore be useless. They might even be at the bottom of their own admittedly large pit like the rest of the Dharma remnants.

- Claire's mother or the actor who plays her is not good. I loved everything about the episode she first appeared in at the memorial service except for her, she was cringe inducing. When she popped back up in the episode with Kate's Lawyer and the conversation with Jack she was ok. I prepared for the worst but I was able to breath a sigh of relief. In this episode she was back at full force. I'm Australian myself and I don't know what the hell accent she's speaking with or 'whot shee iz say-ing'.

batcabbage said...

Nik, as always, awesome recap. I liked the ep, but I wasn't blown away by it. Not sure why, really, because there were some revelations (kinda), but there you go. LOVED the Hurley/Miles scene. Gotta love a BTTF reference. I was sure Miles was gonna call Hurley 'McFly' there at some point.

@Benny: I totally agree, when Miles was spouting about not being able to change anything I thought he was totally channelling Daniel.

@Benny again: I was going to say that Kate was off delivering Aaron. Good catch!

@Benny once more: I completely agree with you about the Sayid angle. Who says that Ben set out to destroy Sayid? That's just the result of his actions. He is a total torturer-killer-ninja-like dude. He's the perfect guy to cap all the dudes hooked up with Widmore.

@ R.S.: As a fellow Aussie, I concur with your assessment of Claire's mum's accent. Absolutely atrocious. What, they couldn't find an actual Australian to play Claire's mum? Overdub maybe? Embarrassing, really. I cringe everytime she opens her mouth.

Jazzygirl said...

Other things that I liked about this episode were subtle things.
First off, yes I did think Kate connected with Roger rather quickly. It's almost like they are cut from the same cloth and can relate to each other's white trash crappy lives.
I loved Sawyer's face when Kate brought up Clementine and Cassidy. He was so clearly torn between wanting to know about his daughter yet NOT wanting to know what two women from his past had to say to each other. I thought it was quite funny actually. Busted!!
Speaking of Cassidy...one thing that's bothering me, and someone else brought it up, is the fact that Cassidy is in New Mexico and Kate is in California. Clearly they have formed a bond and see each other often since Clementine calls her "Aunty Kate". And she drove there right after the marina scene. Isn't it a bit far? LOL? When Jack's at work all day, you telling me she drives to New Mexico and back in one day?
Or, does Cassidy now live in the LA area?
I was a little unnerved when Richard said Ben will lose his innocense. What the hell does THAT mean? It's creepy.
I too loved the scene at the end. I just loved the look on Locke's face.
And Ben being judged by the smoke monster next week? Interesting. I find it consistent with our assumptions of Smokey and his "role" with Eko. I think Eko understood this because when Smokey approaches him and flashes pictures of Yemi, etc., Eko kneels and will NOT repent for what he's done. Hence, he gets killed. :( (That in itself bothers me since I liked Eko and felt his life was forced on him and he was internally GOOD.) I don't meant to talk about next week prematurely but the trailer got me. OH! and the fact that they show Danielle in the trailer...I think we'll see when he steals Alex. Sorry, doing it again. :)

redeem147 said...

I don't think Juliet has any interest in Jack. She didn't look down once.

I think Kate didn't tell Jack about Clementine because it isn't any of his business.

I think Jack is worse than Sayid. Sayid believes that the reason he came back in time was to kill Ben. That it's his destiny. A belief in himself as a killer that Ben largely shaped. And it was breaking his heart. Jack just stood by coldly and wouldn't help. He apparently took a hypocritical oath.

I didn't think that the scene in the grocery store was in any way supernatural. That happened a few times with my son. Kids can disappear like magic, and it's a mom's worst nightmare. (He was always fine).

I was getting pretty frustrated with Hurley, until he stumped Miles. :) Though I wonder if, even if Ben didn't have memories per se, he had feelings about people. Or, he may have remembered it all and had been playing with them.

That Charles and Ellie thing gave me shivers. If Richard cares about what they think...

I thought Evie did an exceptional job in that episode.

Teebore said...

Did anyone else think for a moment that Aaron was invisible in that scene or something?

Me too, me too! For a brief moment I entertained the notion "did Aaron die on the island and the Aaron Kate's been raising is just a figment of the island?" but then Fugly Claire had him (though maybe the island orchestrated his small and quick disappearance in the grocery store to rattle Kate, eventually getting her back on the island).

The Hurley/Miles discussion was intensely frustrating for me, as Hurley seemed to be acting extra-dense and Miles wasn't doing a very good job of explaining things. I kept yelling "it's subjective time vs. objective time!" And all Miles had to say in response to Hurley's question about Ben and Sayid was "who's to say Ben didn't already know Sayid?" No pwnage necessary.

Whether Ben did or not (personally, I like the idea of Ben taking Sayid's beatings in the Swan knowing that's the man who shot him as a boy, but Richard's words seems to suggest this wasn't the case) that's the answer I'd have given Hurley if I was Miles. Loved the Back to the Future reference though.

Also loved Richard's line about Ellie and Charles. Shows once and for all that while Richard isn't always the Others leader, he's beholden to a higher power than whomever is.

And maybe it's just me, but with all the talk of Richard being some incarnation of Ra, I thought the lighting as he took Ben into the temple was intriguing...he seemed to be soaking up the sunshine. I thought of it as powering him up before entering the temple.

I'm not sure if it means anything, but it's interesting that now we know two characters visited grandparents the day before catching flight 316.

Nikki Stafford said...

Nancy: Also, I consider myself neither a jater nor a skater (and, oddly, after the episode I found the twisted part of me rooting for a Roger Linus/Kate ship :) ),

I wondered about that, too!! They seemed to talk so easily, and she was really nice to him and he had a look on his face that no one's been nice to him before. And then I thought huh... what if they were to get together? What would that do to Ben's psyche?

Lindsay: Thanks for the reminder! Of COURSE. Duh, I can't believe I forgot that.

Nikki Stafford said...

Benny: Even though I loved the hilarity between Miles and Hugo, I would have punched Hugo in the face so hard. In that scene he seemed so clueless and idiot-like. For the longest time he still couldn't distinguish between the idea of two times. ARGH!

You know, I NEVER thought I'd say this... and therefore I must. I have to disagree with you! (what?!) I DO think it's a difficult concept to get your head around, or else there wouldn't be so much discussion on it already with fans of the show. We think of time as linear... and if it weren't for sci-fi, it would be.

Let me just play devil's advocate here (and become the scourge of the sci-fi... I refuse to write syfy... fans) and say that scientifically, Hawking be damned, you simply can NOT go back in time. Time has happened. 1977 was over 30 years ago. It's over. You just can't go back.

So if you come at it from that point of view, time should only be able to happen once. In Back to the Future, when Marty goes back in time, his actions happen back then, and he literally begins to disappear when he gets his parents apart. On Being Erica, when Erica goes back in time, she can effect change, and back in the present her friends only remember the antics that happened in the changed timeline. On Heroes, Hiro can go back in time and do something that will change the present when he returns to it.

So this idea that time is circular, that you can shoot Miles but he will still be alive and well in 2004 because, well, that's the PAST... is a lot to get your head around. I'm afraid you would have been hitting me in the head, too, because I would have been exactly like Hurley in that scene.

So here's a Hurley-type dingbat question for the Mileses out there... Miles hands his gun to Hurley and says he can't die, because he's alive in 2004. But 2004 is his PAST, not his future, so technically, he's not alive in his future necessarily. And, if I've missed the boat on that one... second question. If you shoot Miles and he absolutely won't die because he is already alive in 2004 on the freighter, then, does that mean he cannot age at all for the next 30 years? Because in 2004 he's a man in his 30s. But if he ages, then in 2004 he's a man in his 60s.

What am I missing? See? I'm Hurley. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

fb: but if all the losties hadn't done those various things, ben would never be presented to richard in the first place to 'save'. so ben grew up to be the losties' worst nightmare ... but they are the ones who are responsible for creating the nightmare in the first place.

Excellent recap of the craziness, to which I say, EXACTLY. And it's what I was saying last week (only in the context of Sayid, not realizing the role everyone else would play). And you forgot Jin, who is the one who found Ben and drove him to the camp. Technically he's not a lostie who came back, but he's important.

Do you think Ben knew any of this when he told the O6 they had to come back?

Nikki Stafford said...

thomwade: Great point!

Benny: I do have this issue with 2004-Dan talking with Desmond in the past and 2007-Desmond remembering. There is a three year difference between their historical selves.

I was just watching "Because You Left" the other day and Dan tells Desmond he's different, he's outside of time, is special, and the rules don't apply to him. So maybe, like Thom is saying, the rules don't apply to Richard or Daniel, either. (When Richard patches up Locke he talks about this like, 'Oh, you'll tell me this one day...')

pete said...

Nice recap, Nik. I read in the newspaper this morning that LOST won a Peabody Award for some reason. I'll check that out. I love your theory about Ben no longer being presumably immortal. Can't wait to see how that plays out.

Ali Bags said...

I'm just rewatching 'The Man beind the Curtain' and Ben tells Locke that 'I was born here on this island, I was one of the last ones who was.'

That's a very interesting line now that we've seen Richard 'save' Ben. It could mean that because Ben had no memory of what happened before he was shot he genuinely believes he was born on the island or it could mean that he was metaphorically 'born' on the island when Richard resurrected him.

Nikki Stafford said...

Hunter: I've been thinking about how Richard said Ben would be changed and lose his innocence. Does anyone else think this is what happened to Claire?

I was starting to wonder that myself last night. That scene of her all laid-back and weird in Jacob's cabin has always been a lot to handle. This might be the reason why.

Nikki Stafford said...

Another thing I meant to mention in my blog is that we need to remember the Others always wanting to have dead bodies back. They asked Amy for Paul's body back, and they asked Locke to bring Cooper's body back to them, and there have been other examples. Are they reviving them in this way? Are they becoming part of their zombie army of the undead?

If Ben is undead in some way, does that mean he cannot be killed? Does that also mean Ethan was not a full-fledged member, since he was killed?

pete said...

RE: Peabody Award; ABC's LOST "Breezily mixing metaphysics, quantum physics, romance and cliffhanger action, the genre-bending series about a group of air-crash survivors on a mysterious island has rewritten the rules of television fiction." Not to mention its award-winning fan base.

Nikki Stafford said...

joshua: Speaking of whom… did it seem to anyone else that Richard kind of needed to steel himself before going into the temple, or was that just him throwing his weight into that big stone door? Because he didn’t really look scared to go in, but he didn’t look too excited about it, either.

I agree, something was up with him there. First he says he doesn't give a rat's about Widmore and Ellie, and next thing he's going to the Temple. Was he doing something against the rules in the first place?

Genevieve: Yeah, please refresh my memory--did we see Kate at some point figure out that the Cassidy that Sawyer whispered apparently quite audibly to Kate in a loud-ass helicopter about = the same Cassidy Kate met? Kate didn't seem surprised to see it was the same person she met before; she seemed to have already known they were one in the same.

Really good point! Kate couldn't have possibly thought there was only one Cassidy in the world... and from what fans have put together of the audio in Sawyer's whisper, he doesn't mention Cassidy by name. So how did Kate figure out that it was one and the same Cassidy that she knew?? Wow. Really good point.

Nikki Stafford said...

Ambivalentman: I think I've seen you over on DocArzt, but not here yet. Welcome! :)

Lastly: did you catch the "Star Wars" reference when Sawyer says, "I've got them where I want them?" How very Han Solo.

That was awesome. Can't believe I forgot that one in my highlights. Sawyer has always been the Han Solo of the show IMO. :) And it also played back to the lines we heard in season 4 when Miles says he's exactly where he wants to be, or when Claire says Aaron is exactly where he needs to be.

Deborah: And speaking of Kate giving Aaron to Ms. Littleton.....I said to my family there is no way I would leave a sleeping child alone in a strange room, even if his Grandma is just 2 doors down.

Thank you! I agree. And also agreed on the not introducing him to the strange Australian lady who will now be his prime caregiver. But it worked better dramatically that way, I guess. ;)

Nikki Stafford said...

RS & Batcabbage: Thank you thank you for saying that Claire's mom's accent is horrific. I kept meaning to IMDB the actress and find out if she's truly Australian, because I think that accent is totally ass. Now I'm glad to have it clarified by you guys. Every time she says, "Cleh" I hate it. HATE IT.

RS: Can I just say even though I was doubted it seems I was right last week regarding Ben's trauma causing him to not remember what happened.

You were totally right! Good one. I love my commentator prophets. :)

Still no Faraday :( I can wait for more Desmond but not for long.

Oh, truer words were never spoken. Watching the first few episodes the other day had me truly pining for Desmond. I need him back!!!

Smokey does exist in 1977 and the D.I are aware of it from what I believe. If you remember one of the orientation videos I think it was the one that welcomed the new recruits (Ben and Roger)there was a remark made about the fence protecting them from the Island's "abundant and diverse wildlife". I always assumed this was a reference to Smokey

Nice catch!

batcabbage: LOVED the Hurley/Miles scene. Gotta love a BTTF reference. I was sure Miles was gonna call Hurley 'McFly' there at some point.

LOL!! I was thinking the same thing!! In each of my Lost books, I include a sidebar listing all of Sawyer's nicknames, and after this episode I thought, "Hm. Maybe I should do one for Miles, too. The guy's pretty awesome with the nicknames, too! Maybe LaFleur has been rubbing off on him?"

Paticus said...

When Kate went to the stockboy about Aaron, I did think for a second that maybe Aaron was invisible/disappeared, but then I actually thought that he was in on a kidnapping of Aaron, and that the Claire lookalike was actually walking out of the store with Aaron. I thought he looked down the aisle as Kate walked away to see if the woman was out of the store with Aaron yet.

lostie 815 said...

Ajeria Airways has a web site ! and their is somthing called Destination Destiny on it and it sounds Lostish.

Nikki Stafford said...

Jazzygirl: Speaking of Cassidy...one thing that's bothering me, and someone else brought it up, is the fact that Cassidy is in New Mexico and Kate is in California. Clearly they have formed a bond and see each other often since Clementine calls her "Aunty Kate". And she drove there right after the marina scene. Isn't it a bit far? LOL? When Jack's at work all day, you telling me she drives to New Mexico and back in one day?

Excellent point (same to you, Deborah, who also pointed out the NM connection). I keep forgetting that Cassidy is in Albuquerque for precisely that reason. I'm assuming she MUST have moved and if anyone can track someone down who is moving around, it's Kate. Not only does she drive over to see her early in the morning with Aaron after the marina, but in "Something Nice Back Home," she comes back into the house and Jack asks where she'd been that day and she said she had to run an errand in the afternoon. She's clearly been to see Cassidy, but how did she get back home at like 8 or something??

redeem: I don't think Juliet has any interest in Jack. She didn't look down once.

LOLZ! You're right... I think that was on purpose, that she WAS pining for Jack while he was gone, but she is SO pissed off right now she makes a point of not looking at his manhood because, frankly, he's not being much of one right now.

He apparently took a hypocritical oath.

HAHAHAHA!!!

Teebore: The Hurley/Miles discussion was intensely frustrating for me, as Hurley seemed to be acting extra-dense and Miles wasn't doing a very good job of explaining things. I kept yelling "it's subjective time vs. objective time!" And all Miles had to say in response to Hurley's question about Ben and Sayid was "who's to say Ben didn't already know Sayid?" No pwnage necessary.

Yes, yes!! Despite me identifying with Hurley in that scene, when Hurley says that, I was yelling at the TV, "HE DID REMEMBER!! Come on, Miles, SAY IT! He remembered!!" Argh.

Paticus said...

I'm assuming that everyone noticed that Richard suddenly "appeared" in front of Sawyer in the jungle? And that it's just being chalked up to the general mystic air about him ? And that I am currently being Captain Obvious ?

Nikki Stafford said...

Alibags: I'm just rewatching 'The Man beind the Curtain' and Ben tells Locke that 'I was born here on this island, I was one of the last ones who was.'

That's a very interesting line now that we've seen Richard 'save' Ben. It could mean that because Ben had no memory of what happened before he was shot he genuinely believes he was born on the island or it could mean that he was metaphorically 'born' on the island when Richard resurrected him.


WOW! Excellent work! I think you're absolutely right. OR... if he DOES have a memory (which I keep maintaining would make things with future Sayid far more interesting), maybe he means born on the island in the sense that he was reborn. Like being born again. The Temple is a place of rebirth and baptism, in other words.

lostie 815 said...

Is it possiable that Ben and Locke are bros b/c THEIR MOTHER'S NAME IS EMILY WHICH WOULD ALSO EXPLAIN HOW JOHN HAS A STRONG CONECTION THE ISLAND?

Mike said...

As always, great episode, and a great recap.

It DID confirm stuff about Kate, but made me think a lot about Claire as well. So many people think she might be dead, but I really think at this point that she is still alive and that she will also get off the island. Desmond stated that she and Aaron would leave in a helicopter...but did he say they would go TOGETHER?

It makes me wonder if perhaps Christian told her that her son was leaving and that she would follow as long as she just sat back and let events take their course. If so, it might explain why she was so relaxed and willing to just leave Aaron go.

Any thoughts? (By the way, it TOTALLY bums me out that I was wrong about Ben remembering Sayid as his "killer".) :)

LostMyMind said...

When Miles first handed the gun to Hurley, I thought he was just really exasperated! But then it turned out that he was trying to make a point and I was disappointed that he didn't say something funny.
Also, Evangeline Lilly was AMAZING this episode!!! I was a little confused that the thing that happened to Aaron was just his grandmother, I figured it was something worse. But then I realized maybe it doesn't need to be worse, maybe just being away from him is enough. I wouldn't really know seeing as I'm 14 and not a parent, but.
I was so mad at Jack for turning into Locke, I almost threw something at the TV! Come on Jack! Don't just give up! *sigh*
Anyway, it was a great episode and thank you Nikki for the recap. I love your guidebooks and I'm planning to get the next ones when they come out!

Eric said...

One of my highlights was when Miles and Hurley were leaving the house and Miles says "ask me more questions about time travel."

Ali Bags said...

@Nikki - like you I just hate the idea that Ben has no memory of Sayid shooting him, because it made so much sense in 'He's Our You' that Ben deliberately conspired to get Sayid to go back and shoot him. And I love the idea that whole time Sayid was torturing 'Henry Gale' Ben knew exactly who he was and what he did to him as a child. So I'm going for the second option too - that he was metaphorically 'born' in the temple.

humanebean said...

Looks like I will be in the minority on this one, but I found the reveals in Kate's backstory unsatisfying. Perhaps it's because we over-thinkers had already puzzled out the answers ... but I have always found Kate the most frustrating character. She often chastises others for not doing the "right thing" (as she defines it) but usually does exactly what she wants irrespective of others' opinions - and keeps her reasoning to herself.

That being said, the ups and downs of this episode were more than redeemed by the final scenes! Can't wait for what appears to be a Ben-centric installment next week.

And so it goes. Some things that jumped out at me:
1) Am I nuts or did we see Young Ben get shot slightly to the RIGHT side of his chest last week?? Suddenly, the wound is on the LEFT. Call me crabby but this and the cavalier way people move him around all episode while he STILL has internal bleeding struck me as entirely plot-driven and medically unsound. Picky, picky.

2) The scenes with Cassidy just bugged me. Kate brings her an envelope STUFFED with what appear to be hundreds. That thick a stack would be in the hundreds of thousands. What was the O6 settlement, again? Sun buys a controlling interest in PAIK industries with hers and Kate hands out a quarter-mil in cash? I'm harping - time to quit.

3) The scenes between Miles and Hurley were a genuine delight. Also, when Juliet barges in to see Jack, Miles quips, "Ask him some more questions about time-travel". HOOT!

4) I, personally, really like the new Jack. While everyone ELSE is running around, panicked at circumstances (and reasonably so), for once Jack just takes it all in and makes sandwiches. Finally, he has his priorities in order! Juliet seems to have forgotten that only 3 years ago, it took Sawyer to talk her into saving Amy's life by delivering her baby. Now, Jack's a bastard for not trying to save BEN?

5) Claire's Mom is in room K-10 at the motel. Since Kate checked in two doors down, she could be in K-8. Hah! A twofer! One of the numbers and a subtle pun. Well played, writers .... very well played.

6) Watching the scene with Richard, I couldn't help but think back to Ben's line, "I was born on this Island". Even though he admits to Locke later that this wasn't entirely true, it still has resonance given what we now know. Also, I thought it odd that Sawyer asked Richard, "where did YOU come from?". This served to highlight that a dapper (if unshaven) Richard stepped out of the jungle while the motley crew of gun-toting Hostiles stood around in tattered clothes.

7) Nik - Miles said that he COULD die - "all of us (could)". This "now" is occurring after the events we've seen in 2004/5. If he were to be shot and killed, it in no way would affect the later events, which were already an established part of the timeline, even though they are "in the future" from the time period we are witnessing (and they are living through) in the moment. Yes, it is a mind-bender, and I don't blame Hurley for having a hard time wrapping his mind around it.

8) "They've spent three months combing every inch of the Island" - but they HAVEN'T! This is something I've been thinking about quite a lot. They were on the Island for about 100 days before it disappeared (*bloop*). During that time, they never found the Temple, only the Tailies visited the Arrow and they only made it to the Orchid on the last days. There is SO much of this Island they haven't explored fully. Given all that was going on (to be fair) they didn't have the opportunity. Those Dharma vans are out there somewhere. Curious, though, that they weren't just sitting at the Motor Pool in Dharmaville.

9) It was very interesting to see Juliet consider that the Others might be able to help Young Ben. Of course, she hadn't been on the Island more than six months before she was told by Ben that Jacob would cure her sister's cancer - himself. She is uniquely aware that there is a healing power out there .. somewhere ... in that jungle.

10) Now, Ben will "always be one of" the Others. Whatever powers they possess, whatever protection they enjoy ... whatever integral connection they have to the Island's wants/needs/demands. I don't think he is undead, but certainly more intrinsically linked than Widmore. This, I think, is what Widmore refers to in their scene together.

Bonus: I know that the unnamed Hostile who speaks to Richard is probably referring to "Ellie", but it sure sounded like he said "ELIE" (eel-y). I wondered for a second if this could be someone different. You just never know. And - why does he mention her first? As in, SHE would be the one who has to clear bringing Young Ben in ... even before Widmore is mentioned as possibly being angry about it? Curious ..... can't wait for next week!

10)

Benny said...

@Nikki: This is going to sound weird, but I'm not disagreeing with you. Maybe I should have said something different than two times. Someone posited objective and subjective and I like the idea. Hurley has every reason to be confused, but the extent to which he was, I mean he should have gradually understood what Miles meant and not be clueless until he asked his 'pwning' question.

And if Miles is shot, maybe he dies. We don't know what his future is like. If he hadn't died, well there would be some speculation there wouldn't you say. Since we don't know their theoretical future, we can assume anything about their practical present. And no... I would not have hit you!


@Nikki: Richard, Daniel, Des... right... but it still seems too convenient, or at least too vague, for me at the moment. I'll definitely hold up on making any conclusions! We figure Desmond is special in his was engulfed in an EM implosion. Richard is special in his never ages and part of the island kinda way. As for Daniel... I'd rather wait.


Attempted answer; Cassidy in New Mexico: It's definitely stretching it, but if you're willing to believe, I think it can take some suspicious off of the writer.
I don't know exactly how long it takes to drive but google maps says 11 hours non-stop. If she leaves late evening (same clothes) then she would arrive early in the morning. She's have a chance to talk and leave. She'd get back to L.A. in the evening again and meet with Carole and head to Jack's late in the evening, tired and vulnerable.


@lostie815: That would be interesting, except for the fact that Ben's mom died in childbirth and Locke's mom was still around and institutionalized. I like the way you think though!

Hutch said...

Loved the tension and light moments in this episode. The Hurley/Miles exchange was priceless.

Also, when Jack stepped out of the shower and Juliet was standing there, my semi-warped mind flashed back to a Seinfeld episode where the young woman walks in on a naked George after swimming and he has "shrinkage" issues. Jerry later talks to Elaine and delivers one of the best lines in the show. She says "it shrinks?" and he responds:
"like a frightened turtle."

IMO:

There have been too many instances, in different episodes, of Aaron being with others (babysitter, Cassidy, etc.)to suddenly be invisible. Kate was busy answering her cell phone and he went missing. Scary!

Evangeline Lilly's performance this week was her best so far this season. I really felt empathy
with Kate's decisions (for probably the first time.)

I feel the writers are moving the story along at a decent pace this year. Can't wait until next week.

humanebean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
humanebean said...

Aha! Visual confirmation of the Magically Shifting Bullet Hole™.

http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/03/5x10-young-ben-gets-shot.php

The bullet hole is definitely to the right (as we look at it) of the midline/zipper on Ben's sweatshirt. Yet, when Jin raises Ben up, the bloodstain and hole are shifted to the left (again, as we look at it). This is fairly consistent with the medical efforts we see later in the episode. What gives?

Teebore said...

If you shoot Miles and he absolutely won't die because he is already alive in 2004 on the freighter, then, does that mean he cannot age at all for the next 30 years? Because in 2004 he's a man in his 30s. But if he ages, then in 2004 he's a man in his 60s.

Nah, as I understand it, Miles (or any other time traveling Lostie)can absolutely be killed/hurt/aged while in 1977.

While the events of 2004 take place objectively, for Miles 2004 is his past and 1978 the future of his subjective timeline.

There are two flows of time, the objective one (in which time time flows chronologically in order...1970, then 80s, then 90s etc) and the subjective one (time as its experienced by an individual).

For you, me, Ben and most people, objective time and subjective time are the same. We experience events in the order that time flows.

But for the Losties, once Ben turned the wheel, their subjective timelines got thrown out of whack from the objective timeline.

So while Ben in 1978 won't die because he's alive in 2004, Miles in 1978 COULD die because he experiences time differently than young Ben.

All of that probably just muddies the waters. How 'bout this: think of it terms of narrative. Anything can happen to Miles, Hurley, etc. because we're watching those stories unfold. We don't know what the next chapter holds.

But for Ben in 1977, we know what happens in his story: he grows up, kills Dharma, leads the Others. The events happening to Ben in 1977 are like watching a flashback: we're seeing events that already happened to the characters, even if we (the audience) didn't know about them already.

When watch a Jack flashback in season one and we see him yelling at Christian pre-815 crash, we know he won't die in that flashback because we've watched him on the island after those events. But when we're watching the island narrative again, anything could happen to Jack.

So now the Losties find themselves inserted into other characters flashbacks. For them, it's the main narrative, but for characters like Ben, everything that's happening is like watching one of their flashbacks.

Nikki Stafford said...

Have any of you guys ever had a Eureka moment, where you've been puzzling about something for ages and suddenly it becomes so clear it's like you always knew it? It's like reaching nirvana or something.

I just had one of those. And I owe it to humanebean.

He just explained Miles's theory WAY better than Miles did, in that if you shoot Miles now, that's fine, because Miles will still be on that freighter. Which means they WOULD age, and Miles WILL be 60 in 2004... but there will still be the original Miles who steps on that freighter. (HB: Am I understanding that one correctly?)

So... I THINK I'm getting it now? Maybe?

LostMyMind: When Miles first handed the gun to Hurley, I thought he was just really exasperated!

LOL!! I thought exactly the same thing at first! Like Miles was saying, "Just kill me now. Please. It's better than having this discussion with you right now." Ha!

Benny: I don't know exactly how long it takes to drive but google maps says 11 hours non-stop. If she leaves late evening (same clothes) then she would arrive early in the morning. She's have a chance to talk and leave. She'd get back to L.A. in the evening again and meet with Carole and head to Jack's late in the evening, tired and vulnerable.

Good try. You may be right. My question is, what time is it when they're at the marina? Kate leaves and the rest of them go to see Eloise. When they're at the pendulum she tells them they have 36 hours to get to the plane. They leave, the next day Kate is with Cassidy, Jack is with Gramps, and that night they're together and then the next morning they have breakfast and she heads out saying she'll see him at the airport that afternoon. Presuming the plane leaves at 2 or something, that means Hawking makes her statement around 2 in the morning. Which means Kate's probably at some all-night supermarket (though... there were a LOT of people there...) around midnight. She could drive to Cassidy's at that point but she'd arrive around noon. Spend a couple of hours, then drive back and she's getting to Carole's around midnight again, and Carole shouldn't have been fully clothed at that point.

BUT... if we assume the marina happens around 8 or something and the gang takes 6 hours to get to Eloise and the Lamp-post, then it might work.

Nikki Stafford said...

Teebore: I need you and humanebean to get together and write a book on this. And only make one copy: for me. :)

And in return, humanebean, I promise I'll get a Mac. ;)

Teebore said...

He just explained Miles's theory WAY better than Miles did, in that if you shoot Miles now, that's fine, because Miles will still be on that freighter. Which means they WOULD age, and Miles WILL be 60 in 2004... but there will still be the original Miles who steps on that freighter. (HB: Am I understanding that one correctly?)

Yeah, that about sums up what I was tying to say far more succinctly. :)

Benny said...

@humanebean: You're not alone, I also found it frustrating to the extent we'd figured out most of it, if not all. But I do take solace in that it was shown on screen and not let as a 'you've figured it out' type of answer. I think a lot of flashback components will be so,filling gaps but being concrete explanations.

1) You're right about the bullet wound. It might be easier logistically to have a fake operation on the side of the body. As for last week, it was probably for emphasis. IT definitely is a production inconsistency. Shock & Logistics.
You have to figure their on a freaking island without a willing competent doctor in sight. They have to do whatever they can here, and that may mean moving him around.

2) Time to get on a plane that will crash, that's what it is!

4) He's just doing what time dictates, it's happened already so just enjoy the ride. And Juliet delivered recently, as in 3 (?) days ago. It was after their unresolved three years. She's been really busy recently.

5) Bahahaha!!

8) So right. They missed the Tempest, the Orchid, the Arrow, the Temple and if it wasn't for trying to find Jack, they would have missed the barracks too. Only Sayid found Rousseau's camp on an exile.

Benny said...

Nikki: Nicely done, I think we can put this one together.
OK... this might be my project for the coming week (and to think there wasn't anything debatable as last week).

Teebore and humanebean can write something on the Miles theory, and I'll write something on the Kate going to NM and coming back in time to give Aaron back and sneak into Jack's.

Teebore said...

They have to do whatever they can here, and that may mean moving him around.

I thought about that too. The way I look at it: Ben was dead no matter. Juliet made that pretty clear. So if Richard could heal him from that, he could probably heal him from that plus however worse it got while Ben was trundled through the jungle.

And if the trundling made things so bad Richard couldn't heal him? Well, Ben was dead anyway before his jungle jaunt. So they had nothing to lose.

And Juliet delivered recently I wondered about this too...it was kind of a big deal that Juliet "came out retirement" to help Amy, and it seems she was able to slink back to the motor pool without drawing too much attention. Now she's operating on Ben with little to no fanfare.

Did Dharma just accept that one of their mechanics, who joined them outside the normal recruitment methods, had unknown medical experience and roll with it? They were okay with letting her go back to the motor pool after Ethan's (relatively) miraculous birth, even though they clearly have a limited number of doctors?

Her role as Ben's doctor just seemed more casually setup than it should have been, I think.

humanebean said...

You got it exactly right, Nik! I've been a fan of time-traveling fiction for many years, and I love to ponder the possibilities. It's interesting to me that there have been a number of scientists in recent years whose research has contributed to theories on the nature of time, subjectively and objectively experienced.

Ever read (Stephen) Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"? Errol Morris also made a wonderful film on his research.

And, hey, if it'll help you make the switch, Teebore and I will happily write you a personalized tome on the subject! This would rule out time travel for YOU, though ... since everyone knows ... Once You Go Mac, You'll Never Go BACK!

*wicked pun groan*

; ]

humanebean said...

@ Benny: quite right, Old Bean! I know the bullet hole issue is just a continuity error ... and the moving about is as necessary as can be under the circumstances. I guess I just enjoy the whole "j'accuse" thing a bit too much.

AND, yes, of course, the delivery was just days ago. My bad! Must've gotten lost in time, there ....

It is quite intriguing that Juliet has made this transition from Motor Pool to Medic with no (observable) fuss. I've suspected that Amy's role in the Dharma Losties status is larger than we've seen ... and this issue with Juliet seems to underline that. Many have speculated on Amy's true character (secret Other?) and I think we will learn more during the remaining episodes this season.

@Teebore - I thought you did a fine job of laying out the time paradox issues. Watching Miles and Hurley banter back and forth really crystallized the debates going on online, here and elsewhere. I'd be curious to hear what you think about the way that "course correction" plays into the evolving timeline of our characters. Could Kate's efforts to help Young Ben be substituting for Jack's medical skills? Would either be considered a course-correction for Sayid's actions? Or, would only Kate's action have led to the appropriate intervention by Richard that was necessary for Future Ben?

So, is Jack doing EXACTLY what is needed to help the future unfold as it should?

Teebore said...

Yeah, one of the things I love about time travel on Lost that sets it apart from other takes on time travel is this notion of "what happened, happened."

So many time travel stories involve changing the past/future and alternate realities, it's refreshing to see this take on time travel embraced so fully. It's a little harder to get a handle on, but I'm loving watching it play out.

As for the time involved between the Marina Meeting and the departure of 316 (and not to step on Benny's toes) I think there's two nights involved.

The night when Kate leaves and Jack and Sun go to see Ms. Hawking, then a day, then a night, then the day the flight leaves.

Benny said...

@Teebore: maybe I misspoke because that is definitely what I think. from the night at the marina/church, there was 36 hours left. If we give it a random time of midnight, that would put the flight departure at noon two days later. Which is enough time for Kate to drive to ad from NM, but the question is when would she arrive? Early enough to see Carole all dressed up and awake in the evening?

That is what I'll try to work out.

Benny said...

and by I, I obviously mean we.

Nikki Stafford said...

humanebean: Ever read (Stephen) Hawking's "A Brief History of Time"?

*gasp!!*
*clutches chest*
Wait a minute, are you one of my most loyal readers and you haven't read my season 3 book?! Where I devoted a 12-page essay to Hawking's Brief History of Time?

:::sniffle:::

Ok, I've recovered. I guess people are allowed on my blog without reading my books. Hm. I need to impose a toll. Heehee...

humanebean said...

OMG! How could I have forgotten? Of COURSE you did - the Season 3 Book has a treasured spot in my bookcase. That seems like such a long time ago ...

I hereby resolve to solve the time travel issue, travel back and stop myself from making such a boneheaded comment. Hmmmm ... though, who can say what sort of course correction may result? Perhaps I will turn on my TV and discover that the casts of LOST and ER will have switched shows? Or that Michael Emerson is singing "You Don't Know Me" on Ray Charles night for American Idol?

Oh, the humanity!

(perhaps a simple apology will suffice? ; ] )

poggy said...

Nikki: I wondered about that, too!! They seemed to talk so easily, and she was really nice to him and he had a look on his face that no one's been nice to him before. And then I thought huh... what if they were to get together? What would that do to Ben's psyche?

...to Jack's psyche, you mean XD Kate picking Roger "workman" Linus over him would be a moral smackdown I'm not entirely sure he derves XD (although it would be fun to watch). Also, I don't believe this "new" Jack is the "real" Jack anyway - he still has to really get this man of faith thing. Locke, what with his constant talk about destiny, has always been waiting for a sign and then act on it. Maybe doing it wrong... but trying anyway. Jack isn't even trying, so I guess he's channelling Christian in a way.

I'm not sure Juliet has totally gotten over on him (well, she doesn't look down but honestly... that would have cheapened the scene IMO), but again, she has been building a life with Sawyer for THREE YEARS. It's probably hard to grasp for us because it was a matter of a few episodes, but I think the authors didn't use such a long gap for nothing. We shouldn't expect the Losties to simply get back to their old dynamics.

Nikki again: If you shoot Miles and he absolutely won't die because he is already alive in 2004 on the freighter, then, does that mean he cannot age at all for the next 30 years? Because in 2004 he's a man in his 30s. But if he ages, then in 2004 he's a man in his 60s.

What am I missing? See? I'm Hurley. :)


That's one thing that bugs me, too. I'm pretty sure that in 1977, the Losties that are now on the island (save maybe for Kate and Miles?) were already alive, somewhere else in the world. So in theory we would have... duplicates? Does the simple fact that they don't physically meet solve the paradox? I'm seriously asking, I could barely get to have a C in physics when in high school :-)

Teebore: yeah, Juliet simply switching back to "Dr. Burke" struck me as odd, too. Although I wonder if it's somehow common that Dharma's aptitude tests don't always match what people did on the mainland. I get the feeling Roger had a better position than janitor before coming to the island. Although I doubt he was an A series surgeon o__0;;

Ambivalentman (up in the comments): I'm not sure Kate's desire to keep Aaron with her just went down to her wanting to be a mother. I think she believed to a) do the right thing (although that's debatable, but I'm trying to see this in her perspective) and b) finally have the chance to develop a bond with someone that was genuine, sincere and not utilitarian.She had her final breakdown because she realized her relationship with Aaron was built on a lie in the first place (hence her paranoia... the supermarket scene was nightmarish IMO) and if she really loved him, she should have found his real mom. But maybe it's just me having a pet peeve about female characters being so often confined to storylines that revolve around romance and/or motherhood, which isn't bad per se but ends up feeling a little stereotypical to me. So I like to think that Kate's purpose on the island is to set things straight, and moving on from her life so often based on lies to one that's actually based on truth.

This said, though, I totally get wanting to help little Ben! I don't care what he's going to become - right now he looks so cute and vulnerable he makes you want to hug him and tell him everithying is going to be okay.

I end this tl;dr post stating that there's no such thing as too much Richard Alpert in this show. He's awesome and always makes me want to know more about him.

humanebean said...

Clearly, I have already suffered the consequences ... my copy of the Season 3 book only has a FIVE page essay on "A Brief History of Time".

... or is this just a continuity error ... IN TIME?!?!?

Teebore said...

Does the simple fact that they don't physically meet solve the paradox?

As I understand it, yes. The Losties' selves as they existed in 1977 are safely shielded from paradox by being somewhere other than the island in 1977.

Which is why there's a ton of speculation that Ben (and maybe Sun) didn't travel in time with Jack and the others, because they ARE on the island in 1977 and that would result in some kind of paradox.

@Humanbean: I haven't quite settled on what actions I think are "course" and which are "course corrections." I was so sure last week that Jack was on the island again specifically to operate on and save little Ben that I WANT to label Kate's and Sawyers actions as course corrections, but that's just my ego talking. :)

More likely, Kate and Sawyer bringing Ben to Richard is the "course," since his (re)birth as an Other is such an integral part of his being, and Jack came back for another reason.

So yeah, even though he was kind of a dick to do it, Jack not helping Ben was what was "supposed" to happen.

In general, it's tough to figure out where course corrections are occurring since we don't know what the course is in the first place. Course correction is all about the details, and even though we know the conclusions of some characters' journeys, we don't know enough details to tell where the road is diverging and then getting back on track along the way.

SonshineMusic said...

I loved this episode! Yes, there was a lot of simply confirming what we already guessed, but I thought it was fantastic.

One of my highlight moments was the look on Kate's face when Roger introduced himself with his full name and then started screaming that it was his kid. Evie was brilliant in that scene. Trying to look pleased to meet Roger, but suddenly realising that he was the father of their nemesis. Brilliant.

In regards to Miles. I wondered how he understood all of the time traveling stuff so well. I guess it's possible that he got it from Daniel, but the thought that kept going through my head was, he sounds like he's talking from experience. Like he's time traveled more than just the jumps on the island. I don't know how, but that's what went through my head.

Did anyone else notice that there was that shot of Kate looking out the window that looked very much like the shot of Juliet looking out the window (the very debated shot) in "He's Our You".

Another thing I noticed. Juliet refers to Sawyer as Sawyer in relation to Kate, but switches to James when she speaks of him in relation to herself. It was a very telling moment, I thought.

Maybe this has been brought up before, but is anyone else wondering how on earth Mrs. Littleton is alive and well?! Last we knew from Claire, her mother was on her death bed. But now she's perfectly fine and capable of taking care of a child?!


@lostie 815 & Benny: Is it possiable that Ben and Locke are bros b/c THEIR MOTHER'S NAME IS EMILY WHICH WOULD ALSO EXPLAIN HOW JOHN HAS A STRONG CONECTION THE ISLAND?
That would be interesting, except for the fact that Ben's mom died in childbirth and Locke's mom was still around and institutionalized. I like the way you think though!

I actually really like this theory. John is older than Ben and all we really know of him was that he was put into foster care at a young age. I knew that there were too many Emilys for my liking. We meet a woman that we are told is John's mother, but how do we know she is? She could have been hired by Ben's father simply to get him there so that he could take John's kidney. For that matter, I've often wondered if his father was really his father. Just because he's a matching donor doesn't mean that they really are related. It's often bothered me the way his father said, "You needed a father figure" or something to that effect. Ever since then I've wondered if they really are related, or if it was all some sort of elaborate set up. Seems far-fetched, I know, but I've always felt that there is some stronger connection between Locke and the island.

@Nikki:*gasp!!*
*clutches chest*
Wait a minute, are you one of my most loyal readers and you haven't read my season 3 book?! Where I devoted a 12-page essay to Hawking's Brief History of Time?

LOL. When I read humanebean's comment I thought to myself, Of course she has! She wrote a whole essay on it in her book! :)

Nikki Stafford said...

humanebean: LOL! How much do I love that you actually went and checked the book. ;) It was 12 pages on my computer... since I don't reread my books when they come out, I only think of the page count in my own terms, and not how it gets reduced in terms of the book.

Don't worry, you are forgiven. :) Especially since I'm the one displaying complete dingbatness a la Hurley when it comes to this whole time travel thing, something I should NOT be doing after having read that book.

poggy: ...to Jack's psyche, you mean XD Kate picking Roger "workman" Linus over him would be a moral smackdown I'm not entirely sure he derves XD (although it would be fun to watch).

LOL! Man, I never thought of that. I was actually talking about what it would do to old Ben to see Kate becoming his mommy while he's a child and then growing up and realizing that same woman is now on the island in her younger form. Gyah... but I maintain tha Juliet will be the source of his mommy issues. :)

Sonshine: One of my highlight moments was the look on Kate's face when Roger introduced himself with his full name and then started screaming that it was his kid. Evie was brilliant in that scene. Trying to look pleased to meet Roger, but suddenly realising that he was the father of their nemesis. Brilliant.

I agree. That was also one of my fave moments, and that subtle look that passes across her face where you can see her getting it before anyone else does... "Wait... that's Ben's father? BEN is here?!" and then he runs and says that's his kid, and you can see she's all, "Sayid shot Ben to try to prevent him from becoming the monster who did this to us!" Her mind is RIGHT there when she sees it.

SonshineMusic said...

I am still of the camp that Ben totally recognizes Sayid when he arrives as Henry Gale. Just because he never says it doesn't mean it isn't so.

Richard says, "he won't remember this happened."

My question is, remember what? It's rather vague. We know he remembers his past, because he rejoins his father, grows up in Dharma and then kills them all. So what is the "this" that he won't remember. Many of you are saying, duh it's obvious, he won't remember being shot. But I don't completely buy it. That's just my opinion, though :)

Benny said...

It's a long one

Meeting your younger self, or existing in the same physical time and space, does not necessarily create a paradox. It is not an event that is seemingly impossible.

If I got back in time and meet my 5 year old self, he'll likely find it funny that we have the same name. If I don't remember meeting myself when I was younger, then there is no paradox if I don't tell him who I actually am.

In the context of the show, Sawyer knows that the young kid is Ben. Now imagine older Ben walking into the camp. He may very well hide his last name so not to raise any suspicions. Old Ben himself and Sawyer know who he is. And this does not affect what young Ben really is/thinks/does. Maybe years later, when looking in a mirror, he realizes he had seen someone who looked like himself now. (Remember the whole 12 Mokeys storyline?

A young and an old self are two different physical entities through the process of aging and, despite that they should not meet each other, a meeting/coexistence is not something that contradicts itself, therefore is not a paradox. Killing one's younger self would be.

That being said, it may certainly be a bad thing to have such an encounter and therefore there is a reason why Ben did not go back in time.
My suggestion is actually a result of this week's episode. Since Ben entered the Temple to be saved, he's become an Other for good. As such, he cannot be transported in time, he is an integral part of the island. This is the same reason why Richard & Co. did not skip through time with Locke when Ben turned the wheel, they are permanently others and therefore are part of the island.

Now of course there is the case of Sun and maybe Locke. Locke is easy to tackle. Since he was dead, he may very well have been resurrected a la Christian, but maybe doesn't quite know his purpose yet. I would put him in the infamous "undead" category of characters (Christian and Kate's horse being the others - source: Darlton).

The case of Sun may just be quite complicated, but here are my thoughts. Some say she is Chang's baby. But if Sawyer and Juliet knew who Ben was, they were probably aware of Chang's baby, especially given Sawyer's position in the hierarchy. And if we take what is said in the ComicCon video (maybe not canon), the baby is a boy.

My theory is that, since Jin did not want Sun to come back and Locke promised him he would not bring her back, the island was fulfilling John's promise by not taking her back in time.
Another theory that I like and previously brought up is that she cannot leave Ji Yeon in a different time because of the mother-daughter bond.

Teebore said...

Meeting your younger self, or existing in the same physical time and space, does not necessarily create a paradox. It is not an event that is seemingly impossible.

Yeah, I agree 100%. In fact, I've written a sci fi book I'm trying to get published (I swear, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or spam or anything) in which the main character interacts heavily with two other characters who are, unbeknownst to him (and the reader) actually older versions of himself that have traveled back in time from two different points in his subjective timeline.

So for my own edification if nothing else, I wholeheartedly believe that past and future selves can interact with one another without causing the universe to explode.

@Benny, I really like your idea that since Ben was "reborn" as an Other, he's anchored to the island like Richard and the other Others, so that he doesn't travel through time anymore than they do.

It even allows for why Locke and Juliet, despite being Others in one form or another, traveled through time at the beginning of the season, since neither was (as far as we know) "baptized" as an Other.

Another thought that occurred to me just now: if Ben's rebirth in the temple causes him to lose his innocence, is that the cost for all who undergo the same thing, or was Richard, perhaps knowing what Ben's future holds, speaking specifically of Ben, that the effect it would have on Ben, and just Ben, is that he would become the man we know?

SonshineMusic said...

3 quick things

1. Ben got his wish to join the others and it actually was Sayid that helped him get there (twisted, but true)

2. Richard brushes off Charles, saying he doesn't have to follow his orders, and heals Ben. Could this be the seed that grows into the resentment that begins the war between Charles and Ben?

3. I rarely say I told you so, but it looks like my sister and I were right in that Ben's 2007 self was affected by his 70's self being shot, since he woke up in the present when his younger self was taken into the temple. At least, that seemed to be the idea we are supposed to get :)

Mike said...

Benny,

I like your thoughts and would tend to agree that it shouldn't be a big deal if a person's older/younger selves meet as long as the younger doesn't realize who the older is. Flicks like 12 Monkeys and Back to the Future II certaintly do come to mind here.

However, isn't there a video where Chang freaks out when a time-traveling bunny occupies the same space? In the world of Lost, the idea seems to be that sharing the same space DOES create a paradox, and I do think this is part of why Ben did not travel in time.

I also have heard (on this blog, I think) that only those were invited by Locke traveled in time and I think that has a lot to do with it. It would also make sense as to why Sun stayed in the present; she has one of the strongest ties to those who time-traveled (her husband), so it makes sense to me that she would be highly motivated to bring them back.

(Oh, and Nikki, I loved your thoughts on Kate covering up her "mission" to Jack regarding Sawyer. A simple explanation WOULD have sufficed.)

Benny said...

@Teebore: I'd definitely be up for reading that if you get it published.

@Sonshine:
1. That is true, he was made an other by the survivors traveling in time.

2. It seems as though that is what is going to happen. Charles will resent a few things and may very well have to exile himself to save his group.

3. I think the editing was made suggests that, but I don't really think they are connected. To me, it was a narrative decision with the side effect of maybe confusing some viewers. That's my opinion.

humanebean said...

Nik, *phew* Not to suck up, but I actually keep the books close at hand and have referred to them often in the course of viewing (reviewing) the show. Clearly, however, I will need to cram for the final!

@ Benny & Teebore: oh, but Ben HAS traveled in time - when he turned the wheel and wound up in Tunisia about 9 months later. I'm willing to allow that this sort of time travel in exiting the Island may be different than some other examples we've seen - but until we get a better explanation, I'm going to assume that Ben's temple indoctrination (with that fresh New Other Fragrance™!) has not precluded his ability to time voyage.

@Teebore: sounds like an interesting premise for a book. Here's hoping you get it published!

I read elsewhere this morning an interesting idea: that if Locke was a proxy for Christian on Ajira 316, we may have reason to more closely question Christian's death. While not technically viewed as a suicide, his alcohol-related heart attack could certainly be seen as somewhat self-inflicted. If there is a stronger parallel with Locke's death, is there a possibility that Christian, too, was killed - and that the cause of death was listed as "accidental"? This opens up an intriguing avenue for Christian's storyline ... and could perhaps bring Jack face to face with his father's "killer" similar to Sawyer's own journey. Thoughts?

Benny said...

@Mike: Yes, there is the Orchid blooper video. How I explain this issue here is that the bunny was sent into the future, I think that this could cause a paradox, only if the future bunny didn't remember having traveled in time earlier to meet himself. (That part was actually confusing). Another issue is that there is little time difference between the two physical entities and so their coexistence may be paradoxical, as they are the same matter (advanced quantum physics may be required to explain and understand this).

I did say that it was probably not favorable to have two selves meet. In the case of humans, we are cognitive enough to try and prevent a paradox from happening. Animals may not have that same ability when traveling through different times.

Sun: that's right, only those invited by Locke traveled. Why? That may be the question we are left with.


@humanebean: yes, Been traveled through time. But I can easily chalk it up to the wheel having a designated power that affects Others and non-Others differently. After all, its nature is still deeply unknown.

Also, remember that it spit out Locke three years forward and Ben only 10 months. Whether this aforementioned effect is random or Ben's projection was restricted due to his anchor is an interesting topic of discussion.


Also: I may have solved the Albuquerque trip confusion. For anyone interested, I'll post something later today or tomorrow.

My word verification was: whydrath
Why Drath? Why????
It should have been 'darth'

poggy said...

Hey, one thing that just occurred to me - perhaps I'm missing something really obvious, but how does Miles know Ben turned the wheel? How does he know about the wheel in the first place? When Locke disappeared into the well, he didn't know what he was going to find either.

Teebore said...

@Benny, Humanebean: thanks for the words of support. All I can say is I hope it gets published too! :)

I can easily chalk it up to the wheel having a designated power that affects Others and non-Others differently.

Whether this aforementioned effect is random or Ben's projection was restricted due to his anchor is an interesting topic of discussion.

I was thinking along the same lines: if Ben's baptism as an Other keeps him anchored in time on the island, it stands to reason that the FDW, if it does indeed operate on a level that counteracts the protection his Otherhood bestows, would throw him forward in time but not as far as it would a non-baptized Other like Locke.

As for Christian's death, I've been wondering about its relation to Locke's since the Bentham episode. Perhaps Ben murdered Locke because he knew someone (Ben himself?) really murdered Christian, and he was trying to approximate the proxy as much as possible?

Then again, Ben seemed pretty damned surprised to see Locke alive at the end of this episode, which further suggests his murder of Locke was indeed purely malicious in intent.

Brian Douglas said...

In quantum mechanics, the same object can and does occupy two different points in space at the same time. There is no scientific basis for "you-can't-meet-yourself" paradox: that's a sci-fi construct.

NurseBrian said...

Nikki, an awesome post as always!

So about Sayid...
I'm thinking that after he shot young Ben, he's wandered the jungle until, BAM! He runs into Rousseau. From there, will he be the one to set up the distress signal that, he comes upon while in the jungle with the 815 transceiver?
I don't know if I have all of this right, but please correct me if there's an error with this theory.

Regarding why Sun didn't time travel: Is it possible that the Island needs her for some event in the "present" before she can go back? Or has that already happened when she conked Ben on the back of his head? Though I do like Teebore's idea that she can't go back because her younger self is on the island in 1977.

I'll try and come back later; I have so much to say about the time travel rules, but hoo... I really like Teebore's and humanebean's time travel ideas!

Benny said...

@Brian Douglas: yes, I now that. My point is more based on the following: can two coincidental occurrences of the same particle coexist in the same space at the same time?

I know two coincidental occurrences of the same particle can coexist in different spaces at the same time.


If so, then the issue is strictly left to the metaphysical frame.

Teebore said...

Here's a couple of Kate/Sawyer questions I've been wondering about.

Didn't Sawyer set up an account into which his prison snitch money went in one of the season three flashbacks? At first, I thought the money Kate had with her was THAT money, but they made it clear it was part of her settlement. Does Cassidy not know about that money? If she did, wouldn't it have softened her opinion of Sawyer a bit?

Speaking of Cassidy, did it seem to anyone else like Cassidy was projecting her own Sawyer issues onto Kate? Did Kate really feel like Sawyer jumped off the copter to avoid being with her?

Obviously, she must have, because it formed the basis of her "it's not fair for me to raise Aaron just because Sawyer left me" motivation for going back to the island, but at the same time, I was always under the impression that Kate viewed Sawyer's dive into the ocean the same way most of us viewers did: as an act of sacrifice and heroism to ensure Kate's survival.

But then, maybe I've just been projecting my preferences regarding Sawyer onto Kate, since I definitely like "reluctant hero" Sawyer more than "he's a selfish jerk and always will be" Sawyer.

Benny said...

@NurseBrian: unless a pre-death form of Rousseau traveled in time. Sayid won't encounter her since she arrived on the island in 1988, Sayid shot Ben in 1977.

Benny said...

@Teebore: I definitely think Sawyer jumped to save everyone. He seemed genuinely sad (not quite devastated) when he found out the freighter had blown up.

I did think Cassidy had her unresolved issues with Sawyer, notably Clementine.
The reason why I didn't flinch much with the whole bank account issue is that it was made untraceable.

There are two options here: (1) Cassidy knows about the account but obviously doesn't know where it's coming from (she could guess... we don't know her story though) or (2) the account won't be divulged until Clementine is of legal age.

Teebore said...

Ah, that's true Benny...it was meant to be an untraceable account and I hadn't considered that the account is in Clemetine's name, so yeah, she probably wouldn't find out about it until she was an adult. I just always assumed the money was being used to help raise her, but I realize now that was an assumption on my part.

This way, we know Sawyer's a good guy, but Cassidy can still think of him as, more or less, a jerk.

Michael said...

> Kate and Sawyer are now a long
> shot, and I was absolutely
> impressed with Sawyer's line at > the conclusion of his talk with > Kate, "I've grown up a lot since > you left."

I disaggree. Sawyer is a con through and through. The fastest way to an old girlfriend's heart is the ole "I've grown up a lot since you left" line.

SonshineMusic said...

@NurseBrian:So about Sayid...
I'm thinking that after he shot young Ben, he's wandered the jungle until, BAM! He runs into Rousseau. From there, will he be the one to set up the distress signal that, he comes upon while in the jungle with the 815 transceiver?

Not only is the timing off with this, but also, Rousseau definitely does not know who Sayid is when he meets up with her and she tortures him, assuming he is an Other. If they had spent time together before, then she would have recognized him.

@Teebore: I agree. I think Cassidy was projecting her angst upon Kate. Kate has her own issues with Sawyer, but she doesn't despise him the way Cassidy seems to. Again, and I know I've said this before, I don't think she loved him enough to be that devastated by his leaving. And I think she did see his jumping from the helicopter as heroic.

I've definitely lost interest in the ships this season, but I have to say that the connection between Sawyer and Juliet grows better with each episode.

Black and Purple said...

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this but I think Jack's decision was critical for entire story. If Jack had decided to help Juliet in the OR, then Sawyer and Kate would not have had to take Ben to Richard. Roger Linus appeared ready to turn over a new leaf and this might have led to Ben having an alternate timeline, perhaps as a nice person. But he will be permanently altered now. So thanks Jack, for another great decision.

Maggie Elizabeth said...

Kate and Cassidy were totally drinking out of the same mugs that I have! Hooray for Walmart.
Fantastic recap! Reading your blog is my second favourite part of the week, right behind watching Lost! Thanks Nikki!

Missing Georgia said...

I have only been reading this blog since half-way through last season and have only recently started commenting. I just have one question because this seems to come up in every other post: Why doesn't anyone like Jack? I am just wondering. I do not seem him as flawed as most of the folks here do. I am just curious.

Colleen/redeem147 said...

The time line stuff makes sense to me. The not changing time stuff (because you've always been part of it) makes sense to me.

Who knew being a Doctor Who fan would come in handy watching Lost?

Though we have yet to see whether the Blinovitch Limitation Effect comes into play.

Missing Georgia said...

I watched the episode "Left Behind" today which really ties in very nicely with last night's episode. There was another Patsy Cline song, but it was "Walking After Midnight."The episode also answered the question about the security fence keeping Smokey out, as well as the other diverse wildlife.Juliet activated the fence to keep ol smokey from getting her and Kate.

humanebean said...

@ Missing Georgia: I think that Jack has come under fire from show fans, particularly in the last season or so, because his refusal to accept things outside his own viewpoint has led to disaster. He was once looked to as the natural leader of the Lostaways, owing to his intelligence, fortitude and reliability.

As it became increasingly apparent that there were forces operating on the Island that were beyond his control (or understanding), he alienated others by his single-minded insistence on doing things his way, even as the results were negative. He refused to believe that there was any explanation for events other than what he could prove scientifically and rationally.

His stubborn belief that the Freighties were there to rescue them all ended disastrously for many who were killed when the freighter exploded, while all those who remained on the Island "disappeared" before his very eyes. Once off the Island, he spiraled downward into alcohol and drug abuse all the while refusing to accept what had happened - denying even that he was having visions of his dead father. His relationship with Kate fell apart even as he failed to serve as a father to his nephew Aaron.

Ultimately, Locke/Bentham's death forced him to accept that he was powerless before his destiny - and try to work with Ben to get the O6 to return. Once he did so, he briefly sparred with Sawyer before taking a back seat to the events unfolding around him. Previously, people criticized Jack for always trying to take control - now they are criticizing him for refusing to do so!

I happen to like the "new" Jack - he hasn't figured out what his ultimate destiny on the Island is yet, but he is starting to think that he will know it when it arrives.

flexible said...

I agreed with a lot of points on your re-cap Nik,

My thoughts- Still flush with joy over this episode. Loved it. Been waiting for it and it did not disappoint. Evangeline Lilly just proved once again what a fantastic actress she is. Simply superb.

Now to the meat-I was delighted that my theory from season 4 was right. I said Kate was hanging on to Aaron as some kind of link to Sawyer. Sawyer gave Aaron to her. In the boat when she was talking about losing everyone she said they needed to lie about Aaron because " I can't lose him too". Then, her reaction when Jack told her in SNBH that Sawyer left her. The look on Kate's face has been explained by this episode. Cassidy made her re-think her initial thoughts on Sawyer jumping out of the helicopter. Her abandonment issues don't need much to surface and Cassidy brought them out. So, Jack throwing it in her face during their fight was just further confirmation that, maybe, Sawyer actually jumped to leave her. Kates actions since then were all explained in this episode and that is what made it so brilliant. Ofcourse she wanted to protect the child and all but she "needed" Aaron because she had lost Sawyer and Aaron was the one who she had left to love her unconditionally and she just needed someone/something to hang on to. Cassidy called it right. The writers called it right.

Juliet always sounds like everything she says has a double meaning so I did think her scene in the shower with Jack had a bit about her "love" for Jack back then. She did not have to look down. Juliet is "proper". Kate is the kind of woman that would look down seductively. LOL.

Jack. Now I know why he has had all these knowing looks when Kate is looking at Sawyer or Sawyers name is mentioned like the Canteen scene and the reunion scene. He must have known like Cassidy did that Kate still missed Sawyer. I like Jacks stance. He knows why he is there. To wait for the Island to show him his destiny. He does not want to get involved in all the silly problems because whatever happened, happened. This is Lost. We are watching an amoral show with our castaways on a mysterious Island where the dead resurrect and smokemonsters maim humans. Hippocratic oath and "healthy relationships" and how far Alburqueque is from L.A is the least of our issues. At least in my humble opinion.

BTW, Why should Kate tell Jack Sawyers secret? If Sawyer wanted Jack to know he would not have whispered it to Kate or he could have told Jack. He did not. It is not Kates secret to share so I do not see why people expect her to tell Jack.

Benny said...

@flexible: The writers called it right.

Of course they did, they WROTE it. Outside of the little odd errors, you'd be hard pressed to find something the writers didn't call.

They make the shots. Only someone who theorizes can call it wrong.

It's a moot point in a Lost forum, but still... it's not the first time I hear it.

flexible said...

2nd part -I think Cassidy was bitter but she had every right to be. Sawyer abandoned her and their child. The Sawyer she knows "runs" so she told her what she knew. The truth is, Sawyer never felt good enough for Kate and that is why he had a chip on his shoulder about Jack even when Kate was not thinking Jack, Sawyer would imply Jack because he felt unworthy and as he himself said he jumped off so "SHE" could get off the Island because he believed Kate was so desperate to get off the Island. Yes, he did not think it would work but he did not jump off because he wanted to "ditch" Kate. The writers and Sawyer have made that clear. The "not being fit enough" was already a theme from the 1st season.

I thought the chat by the creek was fantastic. He called her freckles and then tells her he is saving Ben for Juliet. LOL. Yeah, whatever Sawyer. Is it not good enough to save a 10 year old boy since Sawyer is now supposedly evolved into this mature James La fleur? Why did he feel the need to say "he is doing it for Juliet". Just further proof of con man Sawyer still playing the longest con on himself. It's about to unravel pretty soon though.


Last thoughts-Talk about Sawyer bonding more with Juliet cos they have had 3 years. So, I guess Kate is more of a mother to Aaron than Claire because she has been his mother for 3 years and Claire for just a few months?

Kate unable to hold Alperts stare in the jungle? LOL. She had to look away. Maybe one of his supernatural skills is that he can see into your soul and we know our Kate won't like that.

-agree with the person who said, all our Losties made Ben what he became and I can not wait to find out Bens memory of what transpired in present time. Though, I am thinking our Losties are just proxies for the people who actually carried out these acts because clearly, some of our people were not old enough in'77. Can't wait for how they will explain this to us.
- Kates Patsy Cline song is her Sawyer song and we know our show so I will recommend reading the lyrics. Very the new "triangle" of Kate/Sawyer/Juliet.
- Was it just me that found Juliet questioning Kate about her off island relationship with Jack a bit odd and totally out of nowhere? I can't wait till she passes on that little nugget to "James" because we all know Juliet can't wait to pass it on :)

Richard does not answer to Charles or Ellie. Who does he answer to? Jacob? Christian?

I loved the expressions on the faces of Sawyer and Kate when Richard was warning them of the man Ben would become and they had to make the decision and knowing what Ben went on to put both of them through, it was a pretty powerful moment for me, when Kate said "yes" and Sawyer handed Ben over.
- Finally, Kate's maternal instincts were never more obvious than when Richard was taking Ben away and she asked "where are you taking him". The look on her face when Sawyer pulled her away was pure sadness and fright. Evangeline Lilly has always deserved an award for her performance on this show, especially in season 3 and for me she deserves one even for this episode alone. If Judi Dench can win an Oscar for 15 minutes screen time, Evie can win an Emmy, SAG, Globe or whatever for an episode.


Afterthought-I am not worried that Kate did not act more surprised to see that Sawyers babymama is the same girl she knew. Neither am I worried that she did not pass on that info to Sawyer. I do not think those two things are so relevant at this point of the story. What was important is what was being covered. Rather, I like their friendship and like that she had someone to unburden herself to for those 3 years judging from Clementines familiarity.

Missing Georgia said...

humanebean: Thanks for the recap. I have watched most of the series and just haven't had the visceral reaction to Jack that others have had. It may be just that I really like Matthew Fox. I tend to view it as Jack having the leadership position thrust at him and that he was doing the best that he could do to step up to the plate. I have been re-watching season 2&3 lately and it is clear that everyone is complicit in following whatever Jack says. They all look to him to have the answers. I think he was trying to be what everyone wanted and now he is not doing that and people are still mad. I love Jack and cannot wait to find out what his purpose will be in all of this. I think it is going to be good.

Missing Georgia said...

When did Jack and Kate's relationship completely fall apart in the timeline? I am trying to figure out how old Aaron was when Jack wasn't part of his life. Was he two years old? If Kate had been taking Aaron to see Cassidy and Clementine, then he would have had the same familiarity with Cassidy and call her Auntie. Also, little kids, even as young as 18 mos, talk about the kids or people they are around. Wouldn't Aaron have talked about auntie Cassidy and his friend Clementine? It just seems weird to me.

As far as Kate keeping it secret, I think it hurt Jack because he knew she was keeping something from him. Anyone in that kind of relationship is going to feel hurt when they know their partner is keeping a secret. The secret is usually not what people are hurt over, it is the fact that they didn't trust them. Plus, you always imagine something much worst than what it really is.

flexible said...

Oh, and when Jack said "You did not like the old me" I thought to myself, spot on, Jack. I have always said, kate liked the "idea" of Jack. The noble doctor. The hero. The good man. To make her good. His goodness would rub off on her. She did not like Jack, the person. She found out about Jack the person off Island and did not like him much then. It's funny that she does not like the new Jack either.

Missing Georgia said...

flexible:I had a similar reaction. After watching the earlier episodes, it is clear to me that she has feelings for him. I think she liked the certainty of Jack, especially since her life has been complicated. Her relationship with Sawyer is more passionate. I am not a shipper. I also am not a romantic that thinks there is only "one" love for each of us. I think you can love multiple people and be in love with two people at the same time. There are certain things that draw her to Jack and certain things that draw her to Sawyer.

I am happy that she is back for Aaron, though. She has lived the last few years as a lie and that gets really hard to build a foundation for a life. In "Left Behind" today, when Kate told her mother that she killed her stepfather for her, her mother said she did it for herself (Kate). Kate took Aaron for her sake, not entirely for his sake.

Teebore said...

So, I guess Kate is more of a mother to Aaron than Claire because she has been his mother for 3 years and Claire for just a few months?

Um...yes. Especially as far as Aaron is concerned.

Steve said...

Here's what I think happens when Richard takes "little" Ben into the temple. It's true he won't remember anything because he becomes....wait for it...Henry Gale! Just Kidding.

Has Horace aged at all? Since Ben's birth on the side of the road to the purge were Horace is found dead on the bench he doesn't seem to look older. Comparing his aging against Roger Linus, you can see Roger has aged in the same time span. It's probably nothing.

The Question Mark said...

okay, is it just me, or did Kate look REALLY damn hot in all of her flashback scenes?

I'm super psyched about the Temple. From the looks of things, next week we'll see young Rousseau and Alex.
Here's my theory on what will happen to ben in the temple:

HE WILL GAIN ALL THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE ISLAND.

Liken it to, sya, the story of Adam & Eve. they were fine until they ate the fruit of knowledge, and then all of their innonence was lost and God cast them out of the garden of Eden.
Let's assume the island is Eden. by entering the temple, where the knowledge rests, Ben will be imbued with the answers to everything about the island, Smokey, Richard, Jacob, etc.

Now that he knows all of these things, it becomes his duty to lead the Others.
Spider-Man's motto is "with great power comes great responsibility". (interestingly enough, he was first told this by his Uncle BEN. LOL).
When Peter Parker got his powers, at first he was greedy and used them for financial gain. but after a tragic event, he realized he would have to carry the burden of being protector, simply because he is the only one who can do it.

Also, if Rose nadler, Bernard Nadler, and Daniel Faraday can hear the sound of my voice, where the hell are you at?!

Hisham said...

As usual you guys covered all the points in the episode that I almost have nothing to say.
A couple of thoughts and questions though:

- How did Miles know about the Frozen Donkey Wheel? We all heard Faraday when he said "What ever Ben Linus did down at the Orchid Station, I think it may have dislodged us." So Faraday himself had no idea of what's there by that time. But we now know that he would later/earlier. I think Dan has some kind of contact with Miles in 1977. How else would Miles know?
What's odd is that Hurley didn't ask him: What's the wheel, dude?

- Did you notice that Older Ben's bruises were kind of healed? Does the Healing Power work on Alcatraz 2, too?

- How was Kate supposed to pass through the Sonic Fence? Juliet never gave her the code, and it was Sawyer who turned it off.

- Is Richard taking Ben inside the Temple so the Smoke Monster would heal, brainwash him? Does that mean that Ben will get "the sickness"?

- If "we didn't need saving," according to Juliet, then why did they have to go back?! What happened on the Island wasn't because they left; it was because Ben turned the wheel. Sawyer and Co were even saved "before" the others went back.

Teebore, I do hope you get your book published. And I guarantee you an Arabic translation once you find a publisher.

Benny said...

@Hisham: every DHARMA member gets the rotating code. It's the same way Ben escaped to find his mom.

As for the saving part. Locke did not know what happened after he left. He knew that everyone was doing badly and he was told he had to bring the O6 back to save them. However that kinda turned out to be false (so far...)

Why would Christian say that to him though... I think that eventually it is everyone coming back together that will end up saving all of them. They need saving but they don't know/see it yet.

Hisham said...

@Benny: I don't think it makes sense that every DHARMA member gets the code. It's like telling them: It's all right, go wander into the jungle whenever you want, break the truce and get killed by the Hostiles. Don't you think?
This a stretch, but maybe Kate remembered the code from when Juliet turned it off when Smokey attacked them in "Left Behind"? Nothing indicates that the code has ever been changed.

Benny said...

@Hisham: I agree that it doesn't make sense but here's what Chang says on the orientation video

"Every morning, you will be given a new code that will allow you to cross outside the fence."

Hisham said...

@Benny: I seem to have forgotten that part. Thanks for the reminder!

By the way, Benny, how can I contact you? I don't know anyone who's a diehard fan of Lost, and I sure as hell would like to discuss the show thoroughly with someone like you.

SonshineMusic said...

I guess I'm still confused as to what or who the Others are. Because we obviously know there are at least 5 types of Others. At least that I see and this is all just conjecture, obviously.

1. The regular kind. The ones who haven't been into the temple and are just living there like Ethan or Miss Klugh

2. The "baptized" kind. The ones who have been into the temple like Ben and possibly Charles?

3. The never-aging ones. Like Richard. Oh, and by the way, I noticed he cleaned up an awful lot since the last time little Ben saw him. :) lol

4. The undead ones. Like Christian, Locke and Jacob(?)

5. The smoky changed ones. Like Rousseau's crew. Unless this is the same as #2. Ben does turn nasty after his "baptism" so is that all that happens to her crew?
There are getting to be so many types I'm kind of hoping that they clarify at least part of this soon.

Benny said...

@Hisham: remember the second document I posted last week? I have a contact address in there. I'd love to go in depth with you!

Hisham said...

@Benny: Sweet! I'll add you to my MSN Messenger.

Benny said...

@Hisham: if you must, but I don't use it. Send me an email and I'll just give you more current info!

Hisham said...

@Benny. All righty then. My email is hisham.m.fahmy@gmail.com

I'm sorry for everyone else for making the discussion take a personal drift!

ARTAR said...

just watched episode. normally not a kate fan but this episode delivered...

jack finally believing/acting like locke only to basically create ben by not helping. loved the banter between miles and hurley had a metafiction feel indeed. getting ready to read thru all the comments here cant wait to read...

-allie ARTAR

Anonymous said...

Enenra MacCutcheon said. . .

fb: but if all the losties hadn't done those various things, ben would never be presented to richard in the first place to 'save'. so ben grew up to be the losties' worst nightmare ... but they are the ones who are responsible for creating the nightmare in the first place.

fb's comment about the losties being responsible for their own nightmare reminded me of something from Room 23, where Karl was being brainwashed. At one point the sentence "We are the causes of our own suffering" appears in the brainwashing video. And Ben was the one forcing Karl to watch this!

--Enenra MacCutcheon

Blam said...

I'm only halfway through the comments, but I want to post this now in case I can't later on:

Miles was making perfect sense to me. I don't get why Hurley "stumped" him because we don't know that Ben didn't recognize Sayid in the Hatch. How would Miles know about Ben's experience with Sayid in the Hatch anyway? Yeah, Sawyer could've filled him in on a lot of stuff, but it seemed strange.

Now Hurley waiting for his hand and then the rest of him to disappear if young Ben died, that was hysterical and also totally logical based on time-travel theories and fiction. Why he and other folks have trouble understanding the objective and subjective timelines, however, is somewhat beyond me. (What Miles should've said to help Hurley out was just that whatever he remembers happening was his past.)

So I mean no offense to those of you who don't understand how the past of the travelers is still their personal past, even though it's now in The Future, capital F, since they've traveled to The Past, capital P, but it's entirely consistent, and their past, in The Future, is still in their future as well, if they live long enough and/or don't jump back to the moment they left in a later episode. If time is immutable, then they have always been back where they are, just never come across any records of it before they traveled there.

An analogy:

I'm walking down Central Avenue. We're all walking down it. Everybody does; it's the only street we know. And it's a one-way street. Each of us has a cookie and we're letting crumbs fall on the sidewalk as we mosey along.

Now some blocks down Central, as a group of us passes, oh, the post office, at 2004 Central Ave., we see the sky flash. While we're blinded, we stumble onto a side street that we never knew was there — or someone pulls us into an alleyway *** — and after doubling back around on the next street over we end up back on Central Avenue, but many blocks behind where we'd been walking when the sky flashed, say by the bank at 1973 Central. (*** This is the inexact part of the analogy, since there was instantaneous transportation through time on Lost; it's not like they experienced traveling through some side-door dimension.)

We've absolutely no idea how we ended up thirty blocks behind where we'd been, but we decide to make the best of it and start walking forward again. You idly wonder if the crumbs from your cookie will still be there when we get back up to the post office, and in fact why the cookie is even in your hand at 1973 because we didn't buy the cookies until the bakery at, like, 1984 Central Avenue. I reply that of course we have the cookies, and the crumbs will still be there. A couple members of our group, whom we never really liked anyway, but still any loss of human life is a tragedy, could get paralyzed by spiders at our current location and never move forward again, but they would still have been farther up on Central Ave. earlier in the day and the people from the bakery at 1984 would still remember them: Aw... That's a shame. Hey... Wait... What do you mean they died ten blocks ago? That's impossible! They were here!

The fact that Central Avenue only goes one way, and that we've all only ever walked down it in one direction, and that our senses have been blown by skipping back in the opposite direction, doesn't change the fact that we have still physically been farther down the street before we came back around to 1973, or now that we've walked a bit farther, to 1977 — when some of our friends, who had kept walking to the airport at 2007 Central after we disappeared, join us, equally bewildered at how they got here.

I probably laid that on thicker than necessary, so my apologies for taking up so much space, but if it helps just one person my job here is done. 8^)

DeborahB said...

When Sawyer says to Kate as he's carrying Ben over the fence boundary that "I'm doing it for her," I initially thought he meant Juliet, but then I also wondered if the "her" he had in mind could have been Clementine. He was slinging Ben up into his arms at the moment he says he's doing it for "her," and I wondered if it was a statement about how it's important to his new more mature self to take care of children because he now sees more meaning in being a father, or if he wants to be a better person because of the daughter Kate has just described to him. If he meant Clementine as "her," Kate would know that because she knows Clementine and Sawyer's feelings about Clementine. It might be a stretch, but I wondered....

DeborahB said...

Re: Jack and how he behaved in this episode - I really enjoyed the new direction he's taking. The ep was Whatever Happened, Happened, and Jack was totally adopting the attitude of "whatever happens, happens." He's become much more Zen in his approach to events. Always before he was fighting the course of events and trying to force a certain outcome, and now he's accepting that the island will make things come together as they should and he doesn't need to be the one to rush in and handle things. If the island wants Ben alive, it will save Ben, just as the island prevented Jack from killing himself. And it worked. Juliet, Kate and Sawyer got Ben to the others so he wouldn't die.

And anticipating any objections that if Jack were sympatico with the island he would have tried to save Ben, I believe that Jack has to follow his gut on what course of action he should take. He didn't feel the desire to save Ben, so he didn't, but he also wasn't trying to find a way to kill Ben either (i.e., operating on Ben and 'accidentally' nicking an artery). He just stepped out of the way. Juliet, Kate and Sawyer were motivated to save Ben, and their motivation resulted in them getting Ben to the Others. It can be argued that their desire to save Ben was the island working through them, and their course of action was the desired approach because Jack operating on Ben in Dharmaville wouldn't have resulted in Ben getting to Richard Alpert. Jack's actions were an acceptance of destiny. Very nice shift from the doubting Thomas he used to be.

Blam said...

The best lines this episode were from Miles: "But I'll have to shoot you." "Ask me some more questions about time travel."

I liked Jack making the sandwiches too. Doesn't that seem to be exactly the exasperating thing Locke would have said and did, but even less defensively? It seems to me that from a humane (and Hippocratic) standpoint we should be mad at Jack, yet from a meta standpoint we can not only be oddly tickled by his blasé attitude but appreciative of the fact that it indeed doesn't matter because (say it with me) whatever happened, happened.

Evangeline Lilly was indeed great this episode, but that scene where she's crying over Aaron's sleeping body sticks with me because of the teardrop slipping down her face and hanging on her nose which any real person who was not acting would have wiped away no matter how overcome by emotion.

Now, I'm stuck in the Stone Age without a DVR, and I think reading Nikki's posts and the comments are a better use of my time than rewatching Lost immediately anyhow. But my memory of what Richard said was that it was vague: "He won't have any memory of this" — with "this" being left undefined, and my interpretation in that moment being that he won't remember what's about to happen to him, not that he won't remember his life to date.

I wonder if Jack's indifference, Locke's Zen calm, and even Faraday's defeated attitude, with his invocation of the infamous phrase above, are sides of the same coin (well, cube or pyramid) as Ben's absolute sociopathy. Locke's feeling of destiny gave him strength and smugness earlier. Assuming as I do that he won't forget his experiences with the time-tossed characters, Ben's seeming indifference toward the other passengers on the Ajira flight and even his active violence towards certain people are probably completely defensible in his mind because whatever he does he's already done from the perspective of the people he met in his youth. It's not hard (especially in a fictional parameter) to imagine someone with the hurt of his childhood turning out so callous, once he realizes that his future is already written — either when Sayid et al. are revealed as being from his future, or in whatever education / indoctrination / revelation may occur in the temple. Learning that time is immutable and that whatever it feels like you are choosing to do was inevitable in the big picture is a sure road to loss of innocence. Ben's life experience, perhaps together with some innate bent towards immorality, would translate that knowledge into a sense of entitlement about doing anything to anyone, even murder. "And so it goes," to quote the aliens from Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five

Switching gears to the small stuff, I was impressed that Juliet didn't look down but totally bugged by Jack wrapping the towel around his waist and immediately putting on a shirt. Not because I wanted more Dr. Shephard skin, but because he didn't dry off his torso first. This is only slightly less aggravating than when men are interrupted while shaving and wipe the foam off the unshaven part of their face to spring into action, yet don't have leftover stubble.

As far as Richard standing there holding young Ben, I like the idea about him soaking up the sun. My own bewilderment at the pause led to me nearly shouting "Shazam!" out loud before he pushed back on the hidden temple door.

Blam said...

Thank you for finally getting me to look up pwn, Nikki! I spent too many crucial years without the Internet and am making up for lost time. 8^)

I forgot to chime in that I'm among those who felt weird that Kate never actually introduced Aaron to his grandmother and just left him sleeping alone.

What aggravated me even more in that whole turn of events was that it got added to the growing List of Anticlimactic Reveals — not because we "knew" it would happen but because it feels insufficient to warrant Kate's later plea at Jack's place. I'm not saying the decision didn't wear on her, but Aaron wasn't exactly wrested from her arms against her will as some surmised, and there's no reason that Jack should promise to never, ever ask her about what transpired. Casual golfers get do-overs called mulligans; Lost viewers get inappropriately dramatic mysteries called Benthams.

Nikki: Did anyone else think for a moment that Aaron was invisible in that scene or something?

For a moment or even less... I wondered if we were supposed to think he actually had never been there, like Dave, but a quick memory check reminded me that much was made at the Oceanic Six press conference about the baby. That was needless chain-yanking, to me, especially since I could've done without Unattractive Definitely Not Claire. I want Emilie de Ravin back, stat.

Joshua: Did you notice the bearded “Violation of The Truce” Other’s very piratey shirt? Reminded me of the one Richard was wearing when he first met Ben by the creek. Hand-me downs from the Black Rock crew?

Or he's actually a member of the Black Rock crew...

RS: I'm Australian myself and I don't know what the hell accent she's speaking

I was happy to hear you say that (and 'Cabbage concur), because my immediate thought was, "My Australian accent is better than that. This is Matthew Frewer in Eureka territory."

Great discussion all around that I wish I'd been able to join earlier, from the time-travel stuff to why the Others always want their dead back to the tantalizing teaser for next week! I wonder if the man we love to hate will really face down Smokey for judgment and if Locke's "Welcome back to the Land of the Living" indeed has deeper meaning.

Anonymous said...

NanX
I was so glad Jack said "NO"

Everybody that left has been pushed and pushed. If we are patient and not so judgmental, when it is time for Jack to step forward, he will.

You all talking about the who can die thing has me confused. I thought Miles said Ben can't die because 1977 is Ben's past and we know he is alive in 2004. But it is Miles and Hurley's present and they can die.

Colleen/redeem147 said...

You all talking about the who can die thing has me confused. I thought Miles said Ben can't die because 1977 is Ben's past and we know he is alive in 2004. But it is Miles and Hurley's present and they can die.

Right. What's the confusing part?

Benny said...

@Blam: cookies! High-larious...

@NanX: I think the whole discussion really escalated beyond that single motion. But you are absolutely right and I think everyone else here thinks the same.

lostie 815 said...

IS the reson the otherville looked the way it looked in the future b/c of when ben was shot by sayid at that moment in time ben's fate might have changed?

Benny said...

@lostie815: doubtful, so far 1970s are happening as they have always had.
One can speculate that Ben hadn't been shot and transformed but it doesn't quite fit what we know about Ben and the island.

I would chalk it up to a few possibilities:
1)Simply a production error, they just wanted to project that it was part of the past;
2) This is a building that we hadn't seen so far/the Others forgot to convert;
3) It is a manifestation of the island/Christian-self to help Sun and Frank; and
4) Something has actually changed, but what and to what extent.

I think that if something changes, it's because Daniel realizes that it can and figures out how. And I would see it as a plot point of season 6.

Teebore said...

Does the Healing Power work on Alcatraz 2, too?

Yeah, I think it does. Alcatraz is within the main island's bubble (it traveled through time/space along with the big island) so it's probably safe to surmise that the properties of the main island extend to Alcatraz as well.

@BlamLost viewers get inappropriately dramatic mysteries called Benthams.

Ha! I absolutely love this! I'm absorbing it into my vernacular immediately.

As for Jack's refusal to help Ben, I think I wouldn't have thought he was such a dick to refuse to help if they made it clear he wanted to, but that in order for him to stick to his new attitude, he couldn't.

If he immediately jumped into action, then stopped himself and realized that wouldn't be a very "man of faith" thing to do, fine.

Instead, it was presented as though he had no desire or interest in saving little Ben because he was going to grow up into evil big Ben, and then came up with his zen "what happened, happened" attitude to cover for his personal desire to not help Ben.

So it seemed like Jack was just being a dick and less like he was accepting his role as a player on the chess board of destiny.

Teebore said...

His role as a "piece" on the chess board of destiny, rather. Still early...

Missing Georgia said...

Why does it seem like Ellie has so much authority? I thought it was interesting that the "pirate" other mentioned her name first when saying to Richard that she and Widmore wouldn't like it.

Benny said...

@MG: I think that, if assumptions that they are together are correct, then they would be equals and respect would command her name being first.

Also, when you say "Charles and Ellie", somewhat rapidly, it might be slightly hard to distinguish it from Charles Zenelli. I have no idea who that guy is.

Note that saying "Ellie and Charles" rapidly may actually sound like Alien Charles... which might actually what he said! think about it.

Useless post I know!

Minna said...

@Benny:
"I would chalk it up to a few possibilities:
1)Simply a production error, they just wanted to project that it was part of the past;
2) This is a building that we hadn't seen so far/the Others forgot to convert;
3) It is a manifestation of the island/Christian-self to help Sun and Frank; and
4) Something has actually changed, but what and to what extent."

OR... I was thinking about the ComicCon video, where Chang said that Dharma needed to be re-founded. Perhaps sometime in the 3 years between 2004 and 2007, it was unsuccessfully brought back? Just a thought...

Benny said...

@Minna: thanks, I had forgotten that.
Someone brought it up last week and I don't think we went in depth analyzing that possibility.

From the video, the idea was that DHARMA was being restarted. My only concern would be how they found the island if the Lamppost was under Otherly control... there may be something more going on here that hasn't even been hinted at on screen yet.

I'm sure if there is, we'll at least have some answer in the episode Some Like It Hoth

Missing Georgia said...

Thanks, Benny. I needed a good laugh today. Alien Charles is seared into my mind now.

lostieforever said...

Excellent recap, as always. But I got a question that nobody asks, and I have been reading all the posts:
How did they build those enormous hatches UNDER GROUND? And how is possible to build the Looking Glass Station UNDER THE SEA before 1977? There was not that kind of technology those years.
Where are the people, machines, props, etc. they needed for to made that?
Something is wrong or am I wrong?

Anonymous said...

Wendy here

Love the recap and discussion -

two things:
1. Re: why Kate didn't simply tell Jack about her visits to Cassidy and Clementine. I think she explains why she "can't tell" Jack...She says something like
"because he (Sawyer) wouldn't want me to".

Like someone else said, if Sawyer wanted his request known to anyone besides Kate, he wouldn't have whispered it to her, so she is trying to be true to his wishes.

2. Re: whether Jack's decision to NOT save young Ben makes him "a dick". 8~). I suppose I may be exposing my defective set of maternal instincts, but that is Ben Linus, and, horrible as it is in the real world to shoot a defenseless boy, this is Lost and he will become the sociopath we love to hate named Ben Linus. To me the question should be put to Juliet, Kate and Sawyer, why are you letting him live? Throughout the series, every time someone does something nice for/to Ben (or skips a chance to kill him) I am always screaming at the TV "No! Don't listen to him! Don't let him do that! How can you forget all the agony and suffering he put you through?" Of course, while I am screaming this I am secretly happy that Juliet, Kate and Sawyer DID find the motivation to save him so that he CAN grow up to be the sociopath we love to hate named Ben Linus. 8~)

Benny said...

@lostieforever: Every station requires immense manpower and heavy machinery. I would say that either they have the machines stowed somewhere we haven't seen yet, or they have them brought when they start a new station.
Given the number of stations present on the island, my guess would be that they are ever present and move from one construction site to another.

As for the underwater station, such habitats have been in use since the 1960s. The most well known Conshelf, SEALAB were both projects from the early 1960s and evolving throughout the decade.

My question would be how they move all the equipment without destroying too much of the flora?

Brian Douglas said...

The flora had over a decade of time to regrow after the purge.

Anonymous said...

What about ten years probation for Kate and her easy trip to Cassidy!!??

Benny said...

@Brian: I know, but the density present seems a little bit too far fetched. Then again that's just my impression, I don't know what the development rate of south pacific plants is, nor on that particular island.


@Anonymous: an out of state trip like that isn't much of an issue. If she doesn't use her credit cards or get arrested, there's no way to know she left the state. What itches me is how she was able to book a ticket and board a plane with her passport, she definitely would have been flagged as a no flight.

Hisham said...

Plus the fact that Kate never gave a tiny rat's ass about the law. She must have been flying under the radar during the 3 years she spent off the Island, but doing whatever she wanted still.

Anonymous said...

@Benny: thanks.

lostieforever said...

Thank you very much Benny!
I guess that something we are watching is NOT REAl. But I know this idea is not welcome:D
We will see.

SenexMacdonald said...

Nikki wrote:
"Does Smokey actually exist in 1977? They don’t seem to have had any run-ins with him back then."

I do not know if anyone has addressed this question yet but I will take it on regardless. LOL

I am sure that since we now know that the Others are NOT stopped by the Dharma security system - it must be there for something. I would believe that it is to protect the compound from Smokey and maybe for nothing else. We might not have seen him/it but I thought when we met Amy and Sawyer shot the two Others, that we could hear Smokey's distinctive sound shortly before this encounter. Did anyone else pick that up?

Since Smokey 'resides' at the Temple, it is very possible that he/it has been there for a long time. The Temple looks very old, is covered in hieroglyphs and could be as old as the statue our group of time-travellers saw. If that is the case, I am hoping that we might get a glimpse into Smokey's origin before the show ends. I think we are due that one. :)

SonshineMusic said...

@ Benny, et. al.: 3) It is a manifestation of the island/Christian-self to help Sun and Frank;

Maybe it's kind of like how Jacob's cabin could disappear and reappear and move around to be where it needed to be :)

M9 EGO said...

My mind is in melt down with all the information on time travel ! But I notced reading through all the comments that only one other person had mentioned the one tthing I want to mention....how HOT Kate looks in this weeks flashbacks !!!...seriously HOT.

I spend a lot of time thinking about LOST (usually in the shower) and have come up with a nice ending. We know that the Losties are in 1977 for a reason either to make something happen or stop something happening. What is after this has happened the 'higher being'..could be Jacob could be another allows the surviving Losties to go back in time to anytime they want and live their life from that point. So Sawyer could back to being 5 and stop his mom being conned and the conseqences of that, Kate could back and not blow up her mom's house and there for her mom would still love her and her child hood sweetheart would not die, Jack could go back and keep Sarah and stop Christian for drinking himself to death and Lock could go back and marry Helen. A nice ending.

Juanita's Journal said...

"That said (and please don’t hate me, Jaters) I think from what Cassidy says to Kate – that Sawyer broke her heart and Aaron was there to fix it – that we know once and for all that her heart would have been with Sawyer if she truly had the choice."


Looks like you were wrong after all. I've always suspected that Kate loved Jack a little more. There was that curious photo of Kate, Jack and Aaron on her fireplace mantle . . . after Jack had left her.



So Sawyer could back to being 5 and stop his mom being conned and the conseqences of that, Kate could back and not blow up her mom's house and there for her mom would still love her and her child hood sweetheart would not die, Jack could go back and keep Sarah and stop Christian for drinking himself to death and Lock could go back and marry Helen. A nice ending.

This sounds like an illogical fantasy . . . even for "LOST".


Juliet's rant against Jack annoyed me. I can understand her being angry at him for refusing to treat Ben. But to claim that she and Sawyer didn't need help, when they had assisted Locke in leaving the island in order to bring the O6 back, smacks of hypocrisy. And Sawyer, Juliet and Miles have been wallowing in hypocrisy ever since the O6 returned to the island.

The Rush Blog said...

Claire’s mom says to Kate, “Why didn’t you come to me in the first place?” and Kate answers that she needed Aaron. But wouldn’t the obvious answer be, “Because Claire told us all you were dead”?! She told Sun on the beach one day that her mother was dead, and Sun would have passed that on to Kate. So why would Kate have been looking for Claire’s mom if she assumed Claire was an orphan? She meets Mrs. Littleton for the first time at Christian’s funeral, and Aaron is 9 months old at that point, so she’s already very attached to him.


Why didn't Kate, Jack and the others consider searching for other members of the Littleton family, if Kate thought Carole Littleton was dead? Why didn't Kate mention that she believed Ms. Littleton was dead in the "The Little Prince" flashback?

Let's face it . . . Kate had wronged the Littleton family by using an innocent child for her own selfishness. And Jack helped her.