Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Lost 5.07: The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

“...there’s a war coming, John. And if you’re not back on the island when that happens, the wrong side is going to win.”

The War: Widmore vs. Ben?
So who's the good guy and who's the bad guy? Are there clear sides? Are they both bad?

I loved the scene with Widmore sitting by John's hospital bed. Why did John Locke make such a huge impact on Widmore when he was 17? He was hostile to Locke, and John talked only to Alpert. Presumably the flash happened, Locke disappeared, and Widmore was as gobsmacked as the rest of them. If he was really on the island for 30 years as he says he was, then Alpert, who would have been tracking Locke’s life, might have been passing on information to him and he’d been following John’s life as closely as Alpert had been.

I said way back in “The Shape of Things to Come” that if you watch that end scene between Widmore and Ben as if Widmore is the good guy, it’s a very different scene than the one we think we’re watching initially (my season 4 Finding Lost book has a very long section on that one scene; I think it’s one of the most essential scenes in the series so far). What if Widmore really is the good guy? He appears to be helping Locke, while Ben is the guy strangling Locke with a cord. Not exactly helping Ben’s case. Or is this all a set-up to make us think Widmore could be the good guy, and it really is Ben?

By the end of the episode, I couldn’t help but worry that poor Locke is just a pawn – no, maybe a knight – in the game of chess that Ben and Widmore are playing. Widmore says he sent his freighter to the island to wipe out Ben so that Locke could lead. Ben says he moved the island so that Widmore couldn’t find the island so that Locke could lead. They’re both saying the very things that Locke wants to hear. They both give him just enough hints to get him on-side, and confuse the hell out of him. Locke has no idea who to be loyal to... who would?

Who is this guy?! He tells Locke that if he doesn’t step up his game, “we’re all in serious trouble.” His words sound very similar to Eloise Hawking’s, when she says, “God help us all.” They both speak as if they’re part of a larger group of people who are entirely dependent on the actions of others to help them out. “I help people get to where they need to get to,” he says to John. Is he some sort of shepherding angel?

“Here, John... Let Me Help You”
Ben’s behaviour at the end was baffling. He does whatever he can to get John off that table, to not commit suicide, only to finish John off himself. Does he believe in some destiny where Locke can only make it back to the island if he’s murdered, not if he takes his own life? He seems to turn when Locke mentions Jin. Watch the facial expressions, the body language, completely change once he mentions Jin. How would Ben even know Jin was dead? He zipped off the island before he knew exactly what happened on that freighter. Has he been watching Sun and knows she’s in mourning, and figured it out that way? But then he still walks John over to a chair and tells him they’ll find the others... and then John mentions Eloise Hawking. And Ben snaps completely and that's the end of John. What just happened? At the very end, as Ben closes the door and tells Locke that he’ll really miss him, it seems genuine. I know that Ben has a connection with Locke, but I still can’t quite figure it out.

• “Written by Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof.” EEEE!!!
• Abaddon standing behind that curtain in the “ER.” (Resetting the leg caused both my husband and I to grimace and moan loudly. Good God.)
• Jeremy Bentham is a Canadian!! Ha! The show has a long line of in-jokes where any suggestion of evil is Canadian. But on a practical side, Widmore probably figured he could travel more under the radar being a Canuck. (Like that time I was at Windsor Castle in England. I walked up and asked a Brit if he could take a photo of my friend and I standing with one of the guards. Man just stood there, arms crossed, never moved, and said, “Where ya from?” I said, “I’m from Toronto,” and he immediately uncrossed his arms, a huge smile came across his face, and he said of course he’ll take my picture. He said to me afterwards that if I’d said I was American, he would have simply walked in the other direction. Apparently they’re still a little touchy about the war....) ;)
• Widmore: “Your parents had a sense of humor when they named you, so why can’t I?” LOL!!
• Locke telling Jack that his father says hello. This explains why Jack starts seeing visions of Christian.

Hurley’s Numbers:
On the car the Arab men are driving in the desert, the license plate has a 42 in it. It’s been 4 days since Locke saw Widmore as a young man. Widmore gives Locke a phone, and if Locke needs to reach him, he just needs to dial 23. There’s a 42 in Abaddon’s license plate in Santo Domingo, too. Helen died on 4/8.

Did You Notice?:
• Ilana looks a lot like Ana Lucia. But her attitude is very different.
• When Caesar is in the rec room in New Otherton, there’s a skull on the desk that looks like a miniature verison of the polar bear skull that Charlotte found in Tunisia. There’s also a Life Magazine on the desk with the cover story, “Color Pictures of the Hydrogen Test.”
• In the morning we see John standing on the beach staring out at the water. For the first few episodes of season 1, he just sat on the beach staring out at the water, even when it started raining.
• They’re on a different part of the island; you can see the second island from this beach, and you couldn’t see it from the survivor’s beach.
• Ilana gives John a mango and he eats it on the beach. In the pilot episode, he’s eating an orange.
• When John teleports to Tunisia, his body has the same physical reaction as Ben’s did in “The Shape of Things to Come.” He lies prostrate, and then rolls over and vomits.
• Just as many of us predicted in season 4, it seems that there’s some sort of wormhole from the island to this spot in the desert in Tunisia. So I’m thinking one of the polar bears stepped too close to the wormhole at some point and zipped to this spot in the desert, and that’s how Charlotte found the polar bear skeleton in “Confirmed Dead” wearing the Dharma collar.
• There appears to be a Brahman symbol on the license plate of the car that picks up John in the desert.
• John’s passport has him born on February 15, 1948. That’s 8 years earlier than his actual birthday, which is in 1956.
• Oops: the Canadian passport has an expiry date 10 years after issue. But Canadian passports are only good for 5 years. They got the big red maple leaf right, but there are two other leaves in the upper righthand corner and another one on its side in the lefthand corner (just went and checked my own to be sure).
• The passport says he was born in New York. So THAT would explain why his obituary said he was from New York City! It doesn’t explain why it said he had a teenage son, though.
• Widmore reassures Locke that he will not let anything happen to him, but he apparently doesn’t save him from Ben.
• Abaddon had to have known the impact him pulling that wheelchair out of the car would have had on John. He didn’t have a crutch?
• When Abaddon is driving John in the car, they come upon some goatherders. Near them is a sign that appears to say “Noire.” It made me think of the term “bête noire,” which means “dark beast.” A reference to the smoke monster, perhaps?
• On the building that Sayid is fixing up, the 9 times table is written on the side, up to 4. Interestingly, Sayid spent 9 months with Nadia.
• We get Helen’s surname for the first time. I wondered if there was any significance, but the only thing I could come up with was the anagram of her last name, Norwood: “Donor. Ow.” D'oh.
• Walt, that OTHER special person on the island, senses Locke’s presence before he sees him.
• Locke talks to Walt in front of Southfield’s auction house. In “The Constant,” Widmore was in Southfield’s in England, where he was buying the journal of the first mate of the Black Rock.
• Hurley is painting a picture of the Sphinx. The last time we saw him painting in the yard of the institution, he’s painting an igloo. From igloos to deserts...
• I was extremely sad when they cut to a cemetery when Locke said he wanted to see Helen.
• Abaddon says that Helen is right where she’s supposed to be. That’s what Christian said about Aaron.
• The Bonneville of Death is back!!! Well, OK, I couldn’t see if it was the Bonneville, but it was definitely a tan car that LOOKED like a Bonneville that hits Locke the second time. (This is the car that hit Kate, hit Michael, hit Locke in the parking lot, and has been involved in most accidents on the show.)
• Jack is just at the beginning of the downward spiral (and the beginning of the hideous beard) when he’s talking to Locke. Say what you want about Jack (and I know, I do) but Matthew Fox is a hell of an actor. He’s amazing in this scene. He's slurring his words at the beginning, so we know he’s been drinking, and his fury is SO great throughout the scene he acts like it’s taking every ounce of strength not to reach over and snap Locke’s neck.
• Westerfield Hotel can be anagrammed to “Die Where Felt Lost.”
• Locke bought his suicide cord from “Angels Hardware.”
• I thought Locke’s insistence that he is a failure who can’t lead, can’t do anything, was heartbreaking, especially since we know what a difficult life he’s had.

So Many Questions...
• How long ago did the plane crash? Has it been there for a couple of days, or did it crash just a few hours before we see Caesar flipping through records in the beginning?
• What does Caesar know about the island? He looks through the records in New Otherton like someone looking for something specific. Ilana also appeared to know about things. Considering it took the survivors months to even know there were other people on the island, much less find the barracks, it seems strange this guy went straight to the spot.
UPDATE: One of my readers, Jim, just emailed me to say the ABC site is confirming that the plane, in fact, landed on the Hydra island, so they're looking at the bigger island from the beach. Duh. I can't believe I didn't figure that one out. So Caesar's not rifling through the rec room in New Otherton, but the office on the island where Kate, Jack, and Sawyer were held captive. (Thanks also to the readers who left similar theories in the comments already!)
• Why did Caesar hide the gun from Ilana? How do they know each other? Ilana refers to someone named Roxanne like she’s also someone they’ve known for a long time (the survivors weren’t really on a first-name basis for the first couple of days).
• Ilana says “the pilot and some woman” took one of the boats in the middle of the night. Since Kate is with the others, the other woman must have been Sun. Where were they going? To the other side of the island? Why does Sun trust Lapidus after he's the one who flew away in the helicopter?
• What happened to the plane? It's just sitting on the beach, doesn't look like it crashed or anything. It's not smouldering, it's not in pieces, it's just sitting there like it set itself down gently. Were Kate, Jack, and Hurley sent to another era? Or are they all in the 1970s or whatever time that was when Jin came bombing along in the new and shiny VW van? If they're in an earlier incarnation of the island, does Ben run the risk of meeting his younger self?
• Was Penny born on the island? I would hazard a guess that she’s probably about 30, and if Widmore was on the island until he was about 47, he can’t possibly be 77 now. So that would suggest that she’s been on the island before.
• Did Sayid join this Habitat for Humanity-type project to atone for his sins?
• Was anyone else terrified that Locke might mention to Sayid that he’s working with Widmore? Eek.
• So. Back in season 4, I nitpicked the fact that Kate, Jack, Sayid, and Hurley all referred to Locke as Jeremy Bentham. I said even if they had been told to refer to him that way as some sort of secret code, they still would have called him Locke when they were just amongst themselves. BUT... in this episode, the only person he seems to mention the name to is Sayid, and it’s off-handedly, saying he’s using that name in his hotel room. He never insists that Sayid use that name, or say it’s a secret or they’re being watched or anything. Locke never even gets as far as names when he’s talking to Hurley. So, again I ask: Why is everyone calling him Bentham at the end of season 4, other than just a plot device to keep the big surprise at the end?
• Is Walt’s dream prophetic? John is wearing a suit and people around him want to hurt him. Will that happen now that he’s back on the island and wearing a suit?
• John was told to bring everyone back. Why does he not push for Walt? He’s made a huge sacrifice to come back, but I thought in this episode we’d find out once and for all why Walt was not one of the people needed. But it seems that John just didn’t have the heart to bring him back, not that he realized the island didn’t need him.
• Kate tells John that he was desperate to stay on the island because he didn’t love anyone. What does she mean by that? Is she referring to her own needs? Is she in love with Jack and that’s why she left the island? Is she in love with someone off the island? Is she in love with Sawyer? (In which case, wouldn’t that make her want to STAY on the island?)

Next week: Maybe we’ll find out.


Anonymous said...

Perhaps Locke CAN'T kill himself for the same reason that Michael couldn't.

Hunter said...

One quick thought while it's on my mind. Can anyone confirm where the plane landed? Did Lapidus perhaps see the runway that Kate and Sawyer were building in Season 3 so he landed the plane there, on the Alcatraz 2.0 island?

Lesley C said...

Looks like the Ajira folks were ransacking the Hydra station. Isn't that where Kate and Sawyer were kept in the bear caves while Jack spent time in an aquarium? I agree with Hunter - I think Locke was standing on the beach looking at THE Island from Alcatraz 2.0.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Hunter - the plane landed on the strip that was being built by the others in season 3. Did they know the plane was coming? Juliet did know about Ajira. Maybe Jacob told them to build it for this very purpose. We know it was the same place because they were in the Hydra station.

Lesley C said...

By the way, discovered this blog 2 weeks ago and LOVE it. While waiting anxiously to read tonight post I had to read the Dollhouse 1.02 recap. Sad to admit I hadn't even heard of the show but I'll check it out after reading your post.

fb said...

the 'teenage son' part of the obit is really driving me mad. why was that even mentioned? oversight? i find that hard to believe with the obsession for detail the writing staff has. i thought we'd maybe find out that john and helen had a kid somewhere along the way, but even if they did, the timing would be off to make him a teenager (i also had a gut feeling both helen and abbadon would die, as katey segal is attached to sons of anarchy and lance reddick is attached to fringe, and i figured with their schedules on the other shows, their involvement here would be limited). did you notice helen died in april, 2006? she died thinking john had died in the oceanic crash.

i felt, in a way, like walt was locke's surrogate "son" -- like he was looking out for him and wanting to protect him, especially by not telling him about michael. but i'm confused as to why they'd bring malcolm david kelley back for just that one scene (and didja notice how much they kept saying walt had grown? they finally addressed the growth spurt viewers had noticed for ages!). there's so much about walt we still don't know, and yet it felt like his storyline was all wrapped up, showing him well-adjusted and going to school and under the belief his father was alive. surely that can't be the end of it? what about all the time the others had walt and how he was special? then again, i feel like they wrapped up rousseau's storyline before it was finished, too ... (my one big complaint about the entire series!)

RSK said...

Two things:

One - Jack actually starts seeing Christian before Locke's visit. We saw that as early on in the off-island timeline from SNBH.

Two - Kate is definitely NOT in love with Sawyer. If she was, by proxy, talking about herself, she was either talking about Jack or Aaron. This seems to occur right after her fallout with Jack (which also explains the beard spurt), so my money's that she's talking about Jack.

Benny said...

Good post Nikki!

Here are my thought:

Ben and Widmore have a way to each other of showing their own interests. Ben's actions seem more misguided in that he did think he was the one meant to turn the wheel. Widmore does appear confused when Locke told him Ben had already left the island. They both appear to have their own agenda, both believing (or letting it be believed) that their agenda is legitimate. But their personalities are so powerful that they might just be imposing this perception.

Abaddon: That is my thought exactly. It seems his role is similar to that of Alpert in a certain way. After being exiled, Widmore may have looked for a guardian to help him in his task.

Ben killing Locke: The important connection is with Eloise Hawking. Could it be because Ben certainly does not want Locke to talk to her. She is obviously aware of Locke, but perhaps Locke knowing of her does not help Ben. Someone said last week about 'Doubting Thomas' that it may actually refer to Ben. He needs to believe in the resurrection of Locke before letting him be the leader. Though Jack obviously fits the profile. There might actually be a double entendre in Ben's speech to Jack.

“Written by Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof.” EEEE!!!
I think Lost is on a rotating writing credit structure. Though I could obviously be mistaken. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Canadian: It's not only associated with evil, but more specifically deception. Kate once claimed to be from Canada, she wasn't quite evil though. But I was happy to see that passport too... the return of the Canadian link! The key to the game is Australia... and doubt all that is Canadian!

Locke telling Jack that his father says hello. This explains why Jack starts seeing visions of Christian.
Actually, Jack's first visions of Christian was when he first got engaged, before the beard. In this one, it's already been nearly 3 years (as mentioned by Widmore) and Jack already has a nice base going. I think it complements his vision more than it causes them.

They’re on a different part of the island; you can see the second island from this beach, and you couldn’t see it from the survivor’s beach.
I think they are actually on the second island, but a part we hadn't seen yet. Ceasar grabs an object with the Hydra logo on it, and it would explain the boats there, like Karl, Sawyer and Kate used.

My Questions:

- WHEN has the plane crashed on the island?

- Why were the cameras not there when Ben ended up in Tunisia if Widmore had it checked at?

- So, Ceasar says that some of the passengers vanished (Hurley, Jack and Kate at least).. but Frank, Locke and Ben didn't and we could assume Sun as well. Why did they not disappear but landed were part of the crash? Are they in the same time?

- A future episode will be named Some Like It Hoth... anyone forsees an anrctic region?

- At the end of next week's preview, You can hear Sawyer say "three years is a long time" which would give the same elapse time of three years for the both the O6 and Sawyer's group (as I speculated last week!)

A second viewing is in order... will be back to read the overnight comments!

@fb: you never know, Walt could make some appearance(s) next season, en grand!

Bay said...

Your post is so darn thorough and I have to go to bed, but I just had to pop on real quick and give my two cents. I think that Ben just took Locke down to get whatever secrets out of him that he could, and was going to kill him regardless. Everyone in on the 'game' knows that Locke has to die to get the others back, so Ben had every intention of killing him, I don't think anything in particular set him off for the kill, but he obviously got some bonus information.

I, for one, think that Widmore is the good guy. Maybe that's just what they want us to think right now, but I believe it. Penny is goodness incarnate, I think Widmores are the good ones.

Someone googled "Westerfield Hotel" and landed on my blog, so I tried it and found you ;) Good posts!

thomwade said...

"1. What does Caesar know about the island? He looks through the records in New Otherton like someone looking for something specific. Ilana also appeared to know about things. Considering it took the survivors months to even know there were other people on the island, much less find the barracks, it seems strange this guy went straight to the spot."

I gather they have been there a few days. If they are on Island 2, well, the barracks were not probably to tough to find. But...months? I am pretty sure they knew they were not alone on the island within the first month-when they realized Ethan was not on the plane and he kidnapped Claire.

"2• So. Back in season 4, I nitpicked the fact that Kate, Jack, Sayid, and Hurley all referred to Locke as Jeremy Bentham. I said even if they had been told to refer to him that way as some sort of secret code, they still would have called him Locke when they were just amongst themselves. BUT... in this episode, the only person he seems to mention the name to is Sayid, and it’s off-handedly, saying he’s using that name in his hotel room. He never insists that Sayid use that name, or say it’s a secret or they’re being watched or anything. Locke never even gets as far as names when he’s talking to Hurley. So, again I ask: Why is everyone calling him Bentham at the end of season 4, other than just a plot device to keep the big surprise at the end?"

Well, Hurley might have picked his name up from the name tag that said Jeremy Bentham. :) Jack likely saw the name when he looked at Locke's charts. And Kate? We joined that conversation midway through, so we do not know that he never told her his fake name.

Benny said...

@Bay: I agree that Widmore appears good in this episode. Near the end Ben was turning the tables on him until his own turn on Locke.

Widmore's demeanor and honesty with Locke certainly earns him points. He never really hid anything, even with Desmond. While Ben, on the other hand, is a master of deception (ironic that Widmore is the one handing out the Canadian passport).

The way I see it though, in the context of the 'game', Widmore is has a comfortable lead and plays it easy, he has nothing to gain in trying to turn others against him by lying. Ben, though, is a different story. He appears to be trying to come from behind, and being possibly short on time is trying to take risks in order to achieve bigger gains. To keep it Canadian: he's pulling the goalie, exposing an empty net for added offensive power.

This obviously does not present any hypothesis for whoever is one of 'the good guys' and who is 'the wrong side'. Taking a page from Nikki's book (and mention in this post), the lone Ben/Widmore scene has a different perception when assuming different sides as good.

As far as I'm concerned, both those actors (and characters) are so intense while being such a contrast with each other that they just deepen the mystery of good versus evil on the this show.

Bud said...

What do you guys think of "OH Free Will Tested" for an anagram of Westerfield Hotel?

Benny said...

This just popped into my head a few minutes back:

We always refer to Benjamin Linus as Ben and to Charles Widmore as Widmore, which leads to the comparison:
Ben/Windmore, nothing to it.

But what if we use their last names:
Linus/Widmore, Loser/Winner?
Any thoughts?

Maybe someone can come up with a reference for a Benjamin/Charles comparison!

Gary said...

hey everyone!

Another good episode. A few thoughts after the first viewing:

I know that what we saw will no doubt verify most peoples feelings about Ben's evil soul but appearances might be decieving at first:

consider that we know that Richard told Locke he was going to have to die. He didn't tell him how, when of where.

we have now seen 3 people get off the island and fail to commit suicide. Michael failed in every attempt, Jack was conveniently distracted by a car wreck, and now Locke was "rescued" from suicide by Ben.

I think it worked out the way it was supposed to if you look at it in terms of a greater plan.

It was murder of course and I'm not claiming Ben is a saint, but he is playing a game of chess with Widmore and the Losties are the pieces in the game. I still want to believe that Ben is the one who needs to come out on top.

However, I've been wrong before on this show. I think we can all say that.

@ Nikki: I remember that seen well and I think that Darlton is certainly trying to keep us in that dark about the true natures of Ben and Widmore. I think, or at least hope that this is all a set-up. My theory is that Ben must have deduced the same thing that Richard knew ( that Locke had to die) and just took matters in to his own hands. Suicide was not an option and waiting around for him to die was not an option either.

I think we can say that Locke was succesfull after all. He planted a seed in Jack's mind that would bring the six back and he died in the process, as he was meant to. I know it doesn't excuse what Ben did.

Hey Nikki, do you recall that Abbadon told Locke he would thank him the next time he saw him? I don't remember him thanking him at all.

some thoughts on some of the questions:

John was told to bring everyone back. Why does he not push for Walt? He’s made a huge sacrifice to come back, but I thought in this episode we’d find out once and for all why Walt was not one of the people needed. But it seems that John just didn’t have the heart to bring him back, not that he realized the island didn’t need him.

I think it was just implied that he concentrate on getting the O6 to come back. I think they were the only ones that the island wanted back.

Kate tells John that he was desperate to stay on the island because he didn’t love anyone. What does she mean by that? Is she referring to her own needs? Is she in love with Jack and that’s why she left the island? Is she in love with someone off the island? Is she in love with Sawyer? (In which case, wouldn’t that make her want to STAY on the island?)

I think she was just referring to her own needs. Probably in her mind she doesn't feel like Locke would even have a woman in his life let alone a deep enough love to want to leave th island. I didn't like Kate's attitude in that seen.

Great review Nikki! Your blog has become a must read for all Lost fans!

Ali Bags said...

@Niki - I immediately thought of you when Bentham's passport was Canadian (I'm British, another nationality that is often portrayed as evil)

By the way, Widmore sounded incredibly Australian when he first started talking to Locke in his hospital bed.

Some questions:

If they ae on Hydra island and they have two boats (recently it was three) how does this relate to the 2 boats found by the left-behinders, one of which had an Ajira airlines bottle in it? Someone must paddle to the big island at some point.

I wonder why they have chosen to name 'Caeser' thus?

@Benny - I also wondered why Widmore hadn't caught Ben when he landed in the desert.

Did Ben know Locke was going to be resurrected and that's why he killed him? I at first thought that he had saved him in order to get information out of him and once he knew about Eloise Hawking he then did away with him, but I'm not so sure now. I keep getting the feeling that he's not as evil as he seems - but who knows? I'm as confused as Locke.

I thought it was really funny when Hurley was all laid back when he thought Locke was dead and then was shocked when he realised he was alive! Lol.

Can anyone BE more accident prone than John Locke? Surely if the island needed him dead, he would have died much sooner?

I also like the way Locke said 'We have to go back' in the same way that Jack later turns into his rather annoying weirdy beardy mantra.

When Kate inferred she didn't want to go back to the island because she was in love with someone I immediately yelled 'WHAT ABOUT SAWYER?' and have decided I dislike her even more than I did before. Lol.

Anonymous said...

I think that Ben was planning to keep Locke alive until he could find out how to go back to the island; as soon as Locke mentioned Eloise, Ben didn't need him anymore and killed him. Who looks evil now??

Blam said...

A great writeup as usual, Nikki!

Man, Terry O'Quinn is good.

I got a kick of Abbadon saying about Walt, "Boy's gotten big." Widmore's comments about John's name(s) were enjoyable, too. But the best line was probably Hurley's "Am I talking to a dude in a wheelchair?"

Now we know that the exit point from the FDW chamber is always the same. Suddenly I had Bobby McFerrin, Jon Hendricks, and The Manhattan Transfer's version of "[Another] Night in Tunisia" playing in my head.

Those close calls of Locke's would've been much more of a fake-out if we hadn't seen Locke about to hang himself in the preview.

I totally hadn't placed Zuleikha Robinson, who plays Ilana, as Yves Harlow from The Lone Gunmen until someone mentioned it last week -- but I did remember her from New Amsterdam, last season's ill-fated Fox show about a man who is blessed and cursed to live forever until he finds his soulmate. Hmm...

Nikki: I was extremely sad when they cut to a cemetery when Locke said he wanted to see Helen.

Well, I'm not saying she's not dead, but if Widmore can plant an airplane full o' bodies underwater, he can set up a tombstone.

Nikki: Westerfield Hotel can be anagrammed to “Die Where Felt Lost.”

Or "Die Where Left Lost".

Nikki: John’s passport has him born on February 15, 1948. That’s 8 years earlier than his actual birthday, which is in 1956.

Plus, if he were to celebrate his real birthday hush-hush before he died, he'd still be three years older than he actually lived, due to being shunted forward in time when exiting the island! Locke is/was internally 49, but would be 52 on his 2008 birthday, and 60 in 2008 in his Bentham identity.

Nikki: So who's the good guy and who's the bad guy? Are there clear sides? Are they both bad? ... They’re both saying the very things that Locke wants to hear.

Widmore felt utterly sincere and sympathetic this time, sitting there at John's bedside. Every time Ben's voice gets righteous and quavery, he's shoveling manure. Yet if Widmore really did plant that plane, and acquire (or especially render) corpses to populate it, were talking about someone with ruthless lack of care for anything but his own interests.
I think Ben's murder of Locke shows that he's, well, lost when it comes to truly understanding the island, because he should know that if the island isn't done with Locke in his mortal form he can't be killed, and whether or not Ben realizes now that Locke should've been the one to move the island I find it a stretch that he's trying to curry favor with the island by being the one to kill Locke instead of Locke doing it himself.

Such brief glimpses of Jeremy Bentham's travels to meet the Oceanic Six we got; that can't be all the contact there was. I can only hope, and actually do believe, that we'll get more flashbacks to everyone's time off the island. I'm tentative about Walt, though; much as I think the viewers and the show itself deserve some more on him, that line from Locke, "The kid's been through enough," sure sounds like one of those meta-closure lines you get when a storyline ends or a character leaves a series.

Locke resurrected on the island seems to be just like he was before -- well, calmer, stylin' with buttons undone on his dress shirt in the breeze, and at his most serene, like he was at those points in the past when he felt most purposeful and connected with the island. My point is that he seemed bodily, eating that mango, and human at least to the extent that he hasn't been blessed with sudden knowledge of how whatever happened to him happened. This lends more credence to Claire's having died in the exploding house and not knowing it (although that would be a case of entering the afterlife immediately and not being reborn upon returning to the island) and contrasts sharply with Christian's enigmatic, speechless appearances to Jack early on, even though we presume that the same thing happened to Christian and Locke.

Word said...

Great blog Nikki and tons of great ideas/theories/commentaries! I've bought your books and am just now getting into the blog...but I digress and now after reading all these great posts feel the need to throw in a quick 2 cents:

RE: The Obit that mentioned Jeremy Bentham's teenage son - Something is telling me that this is somehow going to be Walt...perhaps Widmore set up a trust fund for Walt (knowing how important he is to the future of the island) and linked it to Jeremy Bentham as a roundabout (and definitely unorthodox) means of anonymously taking care of him as a secret benefactor? (We already know he's been helping Faraday and who knows who else). There's definitely something we still don't know about Walt. Hopefully it will be revealed soon.

RE: Ceasar - don't know if this was mentioned somewhere already but I think this dude is somehow connected to Ana Lucia - he took her "place" on the flight, yes? Could they be related? Is he being brought to the island to help put her soul at rest?

RE: Locke's thwarted suicide and subsequent murder by Ben - If we're looking at this from a religious standpoint most religions consider suicide a sin and therefore say that you can't get into "heaven" or a comparable afterlife if you kill yourself. But if you're murdered...well, you can still get into heaven. Replace heaven with the island and well, you get my point.

batcabbage said...

Nik, a fantastic post yet again. The first thing I do after watching new Lost is racing here and seeing what you've posted! I love it!

I have to say, this season is shaping up to be my favourite. And this episode is my fave of the season so far (I said the same thing about ep 6, as my girlfriend pointed out when I shouted at the tv 'BEST EPISODE THIS SEASON!). My favourite character all the way through Lost has been Locke, and I think Terry O'Quinn surpassed himself this episode. The man is a genius.

I don't really have any theories to add that haven't been mentioned before, but what I can say is when Abbadon said "I get people where they need to be" I had a little brain fart. "Where have I heard that before?" Y: The Last Man! Darlton have thrown in a little salute (or, BKV has thrown it in in the writer's room, because as we know, it's a group effort, regardless of what the credits say), because in Y:TLM, Agent 355, an agent of the Culper Ring, says that her job is to 'get people where they need to go'. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, pick up Y: The Last Man from your local comic shop. You will not regret it, and you'll wonder why you haven't been reading comics this whole time. Comics written by Brian K Vaughan, anyway. The man's a GOD).

It was my squee moment of this episode. Well, apart from Ben killing John after he mentioned Fee-oh-nulla (that's how I pronounce her real first name. I know it's wrong, and I don't care).

Oh yeah, and @Ali Bags: Alan Dale, the guy who plays Widmore, is a kiwi, and did a lot of work in Australia when he was younger, specifically in the long running, completely embarrasing (for Aussies, anyway) soapie 'Neighbours' as major character 'Jim Robinson'. I've always thought he sounded like he had the Aussie accent on Lost. Which is great, because it's like reminiscing. Oh, yeah, I'm Aussie. Whenever my girlfriend and I see 'Alan Dale' in the guest star credits in Lost, we say 'Yay! Jim Robinson is in it!' Yeah, we're sad...

Ali Bags said...

Thanks batcabbage - as I am English I actually know all about Alan Dale and Neighbours, in fact we used to watch Neighbours religiously when I was at University - it was when Kylie was on it.

Just thought I would point out how completely unconvincing his British accent is (maybe they are going to reveal he is actually Australian - Claire's mum has taken Aaron back there and he grows up to be Widmore. Ha ha)

Thank God Henry Ian Cusick is actually Scottish!

batcabbage said...

@Ali Bags - Oh, wow, then you know that Widmore is Kylie's father in law, lol! Sorry, I never know whether people know about Jim Robinson, sorry to sound like a condescending SOB. I deeply apologise for Neighbours, and anything to do with it that has infected your country. We didn't mean it!

Ali Bags said...

And I apologise for Benny Hill and Mr Bean!

Teebore said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Teebore said...

I still want to believe that Ben is the one who needs to come out on top.

Me too! But man alive, he's making it hard. :)

Regarding Walt, I suppose we could argue that if Locke is acting as the island's agent, if not its representative, then perhaps he can release Walt from any obligation to return, which he did?

redeem147 said...

Darn. Did a long comment and the computer ate it.

In brief - I don't trust Widmore farther than I can throw him - I still think Ben will turn out to be the lesser of two evils. I think Widmore set up Helen's fake tombstone to cut off Locke's ties to the outside world.

I think the backgammon game Locke played in the beginning of the series could be foreshadowing for a war on the Island.

I wonder if all the people Locke is meeting are dead from the crash, or if Lapidus is just a heck of a pilot. Judging by the age of the magazines, I wonder when they are.

Roland said...

Arrrrghh...I'm so confused!! Yet I come back for more, I must be a sucker for punishment. Hurts so good? LOL

More questions for me this week than any other week so far this season!:

I am totally LOST where Ben is concerned. I think the writers and producers want us to be confused about him. I do not know why he would flip out and strangle John, unless like the some of previous posters have suggested, the island won't let John kill himself whereas someone else could. Still it seems very strange...and why did Eloise trigger Ben's homicidal tendencies? I think Ben is a scumbag, but he'll probably end up as the good guy.

As much as I despise Ben, I have to say the chemistry between Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson is electric! Talk about a Bromance! LOL

When Ben flashed into Tunisia, why didn't Widmore catch him on his fancy camera and capture him?

When Locke found Ben on the cot, he looked beaten up, in the same way he was beaten up when he was calling Jack to pick up Locke's body. Is this the same beaten up Ben? That would mean he would have gone back to civilization after he landed on the island, living in a time miniloop? Or did Ben get beaten up another time (he does seem to have that problem LOL)

Something about Caesar and Ilana I don't really much care for, maybe it takes me back to how Nikki and Paolo were artificially "injected" into the show. Seems a little too "convenient" that they both ended up in first class on Ajira.

When Locke says to Jack your dad says hi, I thought that Locke flashed just after Christian said "Say hi to my son" and Locke asked who's your son, and then never got a response from the flash? Did I miss something?

Am I fair to assume that the passengers on the plane flashed into different time eras? Would make sense that Jin and Sun would be in different time zones just to make their separation longer. I too think Lapidus took off with Sun, probably to look for Jin.

Is this the end of Walt? Seems that the storyline with him and his psychic abilities in the first two seasons was the precursor to something big with him. I hope they bring him back.

Similarly I was sad to see Abbaddon be killed, I think that they hadn't really explored his storyline enough. But I guess he had to flash into Fringe...

I was SO sad to see Helen had died. But with Lost you NEVER know. The "death" could have been staged by any number of people, including Ben or Widmore.

Finally, yes Nikki, Canadians are pure evil. They just ask way too many questions and are never satisfied with the answers! I am one of those Canadians, EH! :)

ashlie said...

Did anyone else find the timeline a little strange (which is an understatement for this season, I know.) But what struck me was the whole Bentham/Jack meeting. Jack looks like he's just moved in to beard-town, he doesn't have the full on beard that we see when he finds the Bentham obit. Now, presumably the obit would come out fairly quickly after Ben kills Locke, I mean, he's in pretty good shape in that coffin, so I think we can guess that he was found quickly and not left in the hotel room for weeks or anything. So let's say that Jack is just a super fast beard grower, I can deal with that. But what about his flights? Ben tells Locke that Jack booked a flight to Sydney, and makes it sound like it's his first flight. Of course Ben could be lying, and Jack could have been doing his midnight runs to Tokyo for weeks now, but if he was, wouldn't his conversation with Locke have gone a little differently? Wouldn't he have mentioned something about taking flights randomly hoping the plan would crash? It seemed like there was a big jump in character for Jack between his encounter with Locke-Bentham and his reaction to finding out that he died. Anyone else have any thoughts?

theothers108 said...

Not sure if someone has said this yet...

But I thought the building Ceasar, Ilana and Locke were in was the same room Juliet and Jack were interrogated in with the "Sheriff" back in Season 3... making them on the "Alcatraz" island, looking at the Lostie island... if that makes sense... I'm sure someone will find a picture, but that's instantly what I thought when he turned on the lamp on the desk.

I was a little disappointed with the episode, to be honest... I was expecting something a little more...

Maybe they were referring to Walt as his son, because he cares for Walt like a father figure-not asking him to come back.

ashlie said...

Oh, and my squee moment was also seeing that Bentham was a Canadian! Canucks are taking over!

And perhaps Lapidus was taking lessons from Sully on how to safely land a plane in an emergency?

DanM said...

I am confused about Locke's mission to bring "everyone" back. It seemed clear to me that "everyone" meant the "oceanic 6". Now I am constantly seeing it refer to everyone who left the island. If that is true then he would need to find Michael or his body wouldn't he?

Also, in regards to this statement: "Considering it took the survivors months to even know there were other people on the island, much less find the barracks, it seems strange this guy went straight to the spot." Locke said he was on the island 100 days which is just a little over 3 months. Remember events are taking place in "Lost" time whereas we are watching in real time, so actually it was only a few weeks when the survivors found out about "others" on the island.

Nikki Stafford said...

Good morning everyone!

Something that occurred to me last night after I was in bed was the line in Shape of Things to Come where Ben tells Widmore that he's not here to kill him, and Widmore says, "You and I both know you can't" or something like that. Theories on what that line could have meant ranged from the two men being in some sort of immortal Highlander situation to Widmore having crazy ninja skills and Ben couldn't overtake him to some sort of agreement between the two of them. But perhaps there's a legion of chosen ones -- Widmore, Ben, and Locke are in the gang -- and if you kill them, it just means they'll come back to life (and maybe it gives them a one-way trip back to the island, something Ben doesn't want Widmore to have).

mgkoeln said...

Hi from Germany!

Nice episode this week, but it leaves some things in the open I'm not sure we're gonna get later.

Even though Locke's off-island adventure seems pretty much closed, there has to be a significant time gap between him being at Jack's hospital and his death. Jack tells Kate at the end of season 3 that he's been flying to Australia "every friday" - so Jack must have done that for at least a few weeks after John's visit but before he learns of his death. See also the Jack-Beard-O-Meter (TM) as proof - there has been quite some growth between the hospital and the Season-3-Finale.

I don't think that Locke's corpse has stayed undiscovered for more than a day - a hotel has daily room service and he seems very freshly dead in the coffin (although the Fisher family might have done some fine work - he's in L.A. after all), so the time gap has to be between Locke's encounter with Jack and his death scene.

Maybe he used that time to tell everybody why they should only talk of him as "Jeremy Bentham". The explanation so far has been quite funny, but also very lame. (Why on earth should Walt mention him as "Jeremy Bentham" to Hurley, when Locke didn't even use the name when talking to Walt?) I'm not convinced that the writers will tell that part of the story, though. So far, the time gap feels more like a security net towards complaining fans - let's hope I'm wrong and there's more of Locke's off-island story to come.

Nikki Stafford said...

WHOA. Just had a terrifying moment where I tried to add an update to my post and blogger freakin' erased the entire thing. I thought, "oh my god... I still have it saved in another file, but what about all those comments so far??)"

And then... it was back. Crazy times.

DanM said...

Nobody taking notice of Ben being injured while the rest of the Lost returnees were deposited back on the island without a scratch? Just as Ben wasn't supposed to turn the wheel for Locke, he has shoehorned his way back, and the island apparently doesn't like that.

Seems to me that Ben is trying to keep Locke from from fulfilling his destiny.

joshua said...

Geez, man! Every time I think John Locke's story couldn't possibly get any more tragic...

Here's my big question regarding Widmore's newfound nice-nice: if he really is sincere in what he tells Locke, then why would he direct Naomi's wrecking crew, via Abaddon, to retrieve Ben and kill anyone else on the island? Or am I misremembering what was said?

I still can't help but think it's Desmond's notion that none of the "major players" have the Lostaways' best interests at heart that is closest to the truth.

So, how badly hurt is Ben? If he wasn't really supposed to return to the island, what sort of price would he have to pay in exchange for passage? Wouldn't it be great if he woke up completely amnesiac?

Frank said...

At first I just thought Ben was just using Locke to get all the information out of him before killing him - but the more I think about it, suicide was probably not an option.

A "sacrifice" had to be made - especially if you look at the religious correlation with Jesus and his resurrection.

Ben also truly seemed sad when he was saying good-bye to John and there was no need for acting there.

Nikki Stafford said...

Hunter: I'd COMPLETELY forgotten about the runway from season 3! Great, great catch. :) They are on the Hydra island after all, so that very well could have been what happened.

That Lapidus is a hell of a pilot.

Lesley: Welcome! Yes, please check out Dollhouse! I really think it'll come into its own very soon and then I won't be able to live without it. :)

fb: Walt is simply too important for them to let him go. They've built up so much around this kid, and there's been a connection to Locke from the get-go, with Locke playing backgammon with him or helping Michael find his dog or teaching him to defend himself or recognizing something special in him. So far the only 3 Walt sightings with MDK as a bigger kid have all involved Locke in some way (the second time only through a mention).

RSK: You're right; he did see his father pre-beard. And on the island, of course.

humanebean said...

A tremendously satisfying episode, from my viewpoint. Terry O'Quinn is once again brilliant and the his short scenes with the O6 (and Walt) remind us that these characters are so well drawn that we are instantly able to connect elements of their stories with only the briefest of glimpses.

And so it goes ... some things that jumped out at me:
1) We begin in Ben's 'office' at the Hydra, where we saw him inform Alex of his tumor. Ceasar finds what looks like an early version of the Island map that Ben gives to Rousseau to accompany Karl and Alex to the Temple. On this version of the map, we see only the Tempest Station and some notes on possible passes through the mountains. Ceasar also looks at the drawing we recognize from Faraday's notebook (real time/space, imaginary time/space, etc.). Where did THIS come from? Lastly, he sees a mint April 1954 issue of LIFE magazine, with the tag line "The Amazing Fireball". Hmmm .... when are we?

2) When Ilana leads Ceasar back to the beach to talk with Locke, we see a remarkably Charlie-like figure in the background. Not Charlie - but an obvious look-alike. When the scene resumes after the break, we open on Locke's/Christian's shoes atop his folded suit jacket.

3) Widmore in Tunisia! So, he is now 71 - he was seventeen in 1954 ... and it's now 54 years later. He says that they were "protecting the Island peacefully" for decades before he was "exiled" from it by Ben. Um, you mean aside from the Army men you executed and the fellow 'Other' whose neck you broke to keep him from talking? Peacefully, my asthma! Like Ben, Widmore lies like honey dripping from a spoon. Gee, he has "no idea" why Richard would say that Locke has to die? How can I tell that he's lying? His lips are moving.

4) Per Walt's dreams of Locke ... why do the "people around him" want to hurt him?

5) When Hurley sees Abbadon at Santa Rosa, Locke tries to reassure him by telling him, "he's with me" - the same thing Jack foolishly says to Kate to calm her at the Marina when she sees Ben.

6) I agree that Abbadon's sudden discovery of Helen's 'grave' in response to Locke's demands is suspicious. Finding her alive might be the one thing that could dissuade Locke from his mission to return - as Kate seems to infer while discussing Locke's loneliness.

7) Why won't Locke tell ANYONE about his miraculous healing on the Island? Wouldn't that help explain to them his 'obsession' with it? Wouldn't that help in persuading these broken people to return and be healed themselves?

8) Off-Island, Locke's faith crumbles into doubt all too quickly - but then again, it did in the Hatch as well. The Christ-imagery continues in his attempted suicide scene, up on the table, arms outstretched, Ben kneeling at his feet, hands clasped in supplication.

9) What flips Ben around? He seems genuinely surprised to hear that Jin is alive. "A promise is a promise" - really, Ben? Then, speaking of their strategy to get the O6 to return he says, "I don't know where we go from there" - and once Locke utters the name of Eloise Hawking, the wheels begin to turn. "Yes, I know her, John". *boom* Electrical cord necktie. Ben has seen his path back to the Island and Locke's death is the first step.

10) Loved the line Locke says to Ceasar in response to his questions back at the Hydra office. "The timeline would just confuse you". Ha! You said it, brotha. As they walk through the makeshift hospital ward, a woman lies bandaged and splinted with a giant peace symbol on her shirt, made up of the word 'Peace' over and over again. Not much of THAT in your future lady, I suspect.

So much more to puzzle over in a second viewing.

groovyghosthunter said...

Hmmmmmm ... I wonder if Walt claimed John's body and told authorities that he was John's son? That would explain Bentham's teenage son.

Nikki Stafford said...

Benny: Someone said last week about 'Doubting Thomas' that it may actually refer to Ben. He needs to believe in the resurrection of Locke before letting him be the leader. Though Jack obviously fits the profile. There might actually be a double entendre in Ben's speech to Jack.

Excellent point. And remember back on the island he had a chance to kill Locke, but instead he shot him in the gut and left him for dead, as if daring him to resurrect himself and show up, which Locke did the next day. I still love the look on Ben's face when Locke hobbles into the clearing. Ben keeps testing Locke because he doesn't want to believe there could be a third special person, and since Widmore is his foe, what does that make Locke? he must be thinking.

Ceasar grabs an object with the Hydra logo on it, and it would explain the boats there, like Karl, Sawyer and Kate used.

That's why I'm kicking myself. As soon as he picked it up I said out loud, "The hydra station..." but then didn't put it together that duh, they are IN the Hydra. For some reason I just think of those documents now as being everywhere. Sometimes I don't know where my brain goes.

Why were the cameras not there when Ben ended up in Tunisia if Widmore had it checked at?

I wondered the same thing. You know, when he first woke up and we saw the cameras, I immediately thought they must be Ben's, since Ben would have landed in that spot. Then Widmore said they were his. It seems like something Ben would have done, but then again, if Widmore had been ejected from the island, then he would have also landed in that same spot years earlier.

Nikki Stafford said...

DanM: I think Ben's injuries aren't from the plane crash so much as the injuries he had when he got ON the plane. He could have been knocked unconscious in the landing and they assumed he'd been terribly hurt in the crash, so they put him in the sick bay, but I think those are mostly pre-crash wounds.

Or knowing Ben, he was beat up a little when he landed on the island, and pissed someone off just outside the plane and they let him have it again. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Bay: Welcome to the blog! You're probably right; Ben turns me into a gullible idiot every time he's on screen, and I always fall into the same traps as the characters on the show. You're probably right that he needed info (about Jin, Eloise, etc.) and knew Locke could get it for him.

Does anyone think he already knew about Eloise? If you figure Locke died and there couldn't have been more than a few days between his death and the return to the island, Ben's talking to Eloise like he's been in contact with her for a while. I wonder if him mentioning her name was nothing more than a tipoff that Widmore was onto him, and Locke was in cahoots with Widmore.

Anonymous said...

I don't that either Ben or Widmore is necessarily "good" or "evil" - just two guys trying to control the island for their own purposes. Like most real people they're shades of grey. I wonder whose side Hawking is on though as they both believe she is the way back to the island. She is facillitating both sides. My personal belief is that Alpert and the island want both sides to lose and to have Locke be in charge as he seems to have less selfish interests.

Did anybody else think the doctor treating Locke's leg was the doctor from the Freighter? I did.

Also, remember the Season 4 series premier - Abadon asks Hurley are they alive? If Widmore was keeping such close tabs on everyone wouldn't he have known that?


Teebore said...

Here's my big question regarding Widmore's newfound nice-nice: if he really is sincere in what he tells Locke, then why would he direct Naomi's wrecking crew, via Abaddon, to retrieve Ben and kill anyone else on the island? Or am I misremembering what was said?

In my hope that Ben is, at least, the lesser of two evils, I keep returning to this question as well.

I seem to recall the orders being very explicit (grab Ben and kill everyone) and explicitly from Widmore, but then again, ALL of that was coming from other characters. We never saw Widmore directly issue any orders, so it remains within the realm of possibility that overzealous underlings (*cough* Keamy *cough*) went further than Widmore intended.

For example, unless I'm forgetting something (and I certainly could be) the bomb on the freighter was never directly attributed to Widmore. Perhaps Keamy set all that up of his own volition as an insurance policy.

Widmore is complicit in whatever actions his psycho employee took, but that doesn't mean Widmore specifically ordered Keamy to perform every single villainous act he did in carrying out his mission.

ashlie said...

I wonder why Eloise isn't trying to get back to the island. If she really is the "Ellie" that we saw int he 50s on the island, why isn't she compelled to return like everyone else? Is this her destiny, to lead people back, but never to return herself?

Also, did anyone else watch the enhanced version of 316? It had some interesting insights.

Deborah said...

This may have been posted already; I've only had time to read Nikki's blog before making school lunches.....I know Ben said he could not go back to The Island. If so, why did he get on the plane knowing it would kill him to do so? Personally, I don't think he is really dead. Anyone else agree?

Not my favorite episode of the season but a few questions, at least, were answered.

DanM said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DanM said...

Nikki, when Ben turned the wheel for Locke he said that whoever turns it could never return. More lies? Or if true then it would make sense the island would be peeved that he's coming back.

Also, doesn't Wid know about Eloise? It seems inconceivable to me that he doesn't. All he had to do was get her to show him where one of the windows in the time stream was so why hasn't he he been able to find the island for all those years? This seems like a rather big plot hole that I hope gets filled in.

Benny said...

I have this idea lingering that in the 'game' Ben and Widmore are playing, Eloise is a wildcard helper. But sides can use her knowledge. Locke knowing about her maybe suggested to Ben that there was now a third member in this 'game'

I think Abaddon meant those on the Island, Widmore probably did not know and asked Abaddon to get information. It wasn't until Locke appeared that Widmore got some answers.

@Ashlie: I did see it and yes, it had some nice insights. I understand Nikki doesn't like getting information through the enhanced and ARGs, but I think the relevant information we get is eventually revealed in the show later on. This is more of a tease for hardcore fans with nothing else to do the hour before the show airs.

@DanM: It's an interesting thought. Hopefully we'll get the answer but until then here's a suggestion.
Widmore fell out of favour with Eloise and even though they're possibly in touch or know where each other are, Eloise may not want Widmore to find the Island, or at least is waiting for him to come to her. Ben turned the wheel and therefore likely knew what was happening and possibly went to her to tell her. This would explain that she was able to find a window. Charles had no idea of what was happening until Locke turned up in Tunisia.
But Widmore knowing where Eloise is raises a new question: does he know about the Lamppost? One can assume that since he was on the Island for 30 years, he must have know about the DI, which would suggest he could be aware of it. And if he is, why does he not use it?

It is possible Charles knows he cannot personally go back and instead knows Locke is supposed to be there, he hasn't fallen out of favour!

Again, this is food for thought until we get the real answer. I hope it sparks some discussions!

ChrisTemple said...

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet but maybe Locke couldn't kill himself because he represents Jesus (Like Ben refered to in 316) and Ben represents Judas. Since Judas pretty sent Jesus to his death Locke had to send Locke to his. Just a thought.

brent said...

I'm sorry if this was already answered but I haven't had time to read the whole page. The time when Ben arrives in Tunisia and Locke arrives are very different. Ben arrived on October 24, 2005 and Locke arrived roughly two years later. So that could explain why Widmore put the cameras up.

I liked the lack of subterfuge in this episode. So Ben, you killed Matthew, right? "Yep."

brent said...

As ChrisTemple said, Locke couldn't kill himself because that would make him a really crummy Jesus figure. The religious overtones of that scene were overwhelming. The post he was going to kill himself on formed a nice cross in the ceiling, too.

mgkoeln said...

Oh, Nikki, by the way: Your calculaition of Widmore's age is a little off!

We know that he was 17 years old in "Jughead" - which took place in 1954. So "now" in 2008 Widmore would be 71 (or a few years less if he also did a jump to the future like Locke and Ben when he left the island).

So, if he was on the island for 30 years and off the island for another 30 years he must have arrived there in 1948 (or a few years earlier if he jumped forward in time) aged 11 or younger.

He might be older if he jumped back in time when leaving the island - but with actor Alan Dale being 60 the other way round is more probable.

ashlie said...

@Benny -

I agree, I don't know how I feel about the enhanced episodes, I feel like they give away too much too quickly sometimes (like showing us that Ms. Hawking's name was Eloise long before we found out in the show), but they do offer some interesting insights. I didn't want to mention exactly what they are here in case someone considers them as spoilers, but I fear that one in particular gives away a bit too much too quickly.

Teebore said...


Which also makes it more likely that Penny was born on the island.

Let's say that in late 2007 when she goes with Desmond to LA she's 30. Maybe a little younger, maybe a little older. That would mean she was born in 1977, give or take.

If Widmore was 17 in 1954 and was on the island for an additional 30 years or so, he'd have left the island in 1984...meaning Penny HAD to have been born there.

If Widmore was on the island for a total of 30 year, and meeting Locke in 1954 was in year X of that 30 year time, then things get a little dicey.

If he was born on the island and left 30 years later, that puts his exile date at 1967 (which would theoretically have him predating the DI). More likely, he came to the island at some point between birth and seventeen, meaning he left sometime between 1967 and 1984.

But if Ben did play a role in exiling Widmore, then Widmore had to have been on the island at least into the 70s, most likely the 80s. If we assume that Ben's role in the Purge in 1992 was the final step in his ascension to leadership, and further trust Widmore's claim that he led the Others, than it's reasonable to assume that Ben might have created a job opening by getting rid of Widmore before the Purge.

Which makes it likely that Widmore was on the island at some point in the 80s, meaning Penny would have to be an island native. Or that her mother was an Other who left the island before Widmore. Or that she's adopted.

Benny said...

Hey, here's food for thought on Penny:

Ben's daughter is not his daughter. Is Penny really Widmore's daughter? Don't always take the Other's at their words. Alex really taught that Ben was her father. The circumstances could be the same surrounding Penny, she may have been taken from the DI (or off the Island) and raised as Charles' daughter.

Benny said...

@ashlie: my thoughts exactly, I fell the eventual reveal may be significantly anti-climactic for those of us who saw the caption!

Nikki Stafford said...

mgkoeln: My calculation wasn't off; I was saying he could NOT be 77, and was showing how anything younger than that would mean Penny was born on the island... ooh... wait, Teebore just beat me to this explanation. :) I just can't get on here quickly enough! Hahahaha...

And there's Benny:
Ben's daughter is not his daughter. Is Penny really Widmore's daughter?

What about this: Could Penny be Ben's daughter? I know the ages don't add up (though if they want to stretch and say she's in her mid-20s and not 30, like I suggested, then that would make Ben about 17 or 18 years older than her). Or there could have been time travelling involved. Hm.

Benny said...

Oh Nikki! This is just C-R-A-Z-Y !
Excitedly crazy.

Missing Georgia said...

I liked the episode, but it wasn't my favorite. However, I thought the acting was superb! I near tears when Locke was up on the top of the desk telling Ben that he was a failure and could not lead.

Re: Locke as Christ figure - I agree with other remarks that he could not kill himself and that he would have to be murdered to fulfill his destiny or prophecy.

Re: Ben as doubting Thomas and Judas - I think these comparisons on right on the money. Ben seems to keep testing Locke to see if he is "special" and so far, he passes those tests, but Ben has not quite accepted him. Ben as Judas is also interesting because he supposedly betrayed Jesus, leading to his crucifixion and death. However, there are many scholars that think that Judas was told by Jesus to reveal his whereabouts to put the fulfillment of prophecy in motion. I like to think of Ben as being that kind of Judas, rather than one that was betraying Jesus/Locke for reward. But I could be wrong.

Re: Jack timeline - I am also confused by the timeline of Locke seeing Jack, the purchase of a plane ticket and the breakdown of Jack we see in Season 3 where he has been flying on different planes trying to get back to the island. That was the most confusing part to me last night. I wonder if that will be explained or if it was sloppy writing.

Re: Walt - I loved that Locke couldn't tell him about Michael. It showed such compassion and that he didn't want to hurt Walt. My guess to why Walt was referred to as Bentham's son is that Locke could have left him something via his will. It could be something that may be important later on and may make Walt play a part in later episodes.

Re: Ceasar - Does anyone think that he is a part of the group that was shooting at the Losties when they were jumping through time and had taken the boat?

Re: Eloise Hawking - It is obvious that Ben and Widmore know about her, but I cannot figure out who she is helping. It would stand to reason that Widmore knows about her and would be funding her due to the fact that he has been funding Daniel's research. How would he not know about her and the Lamp post station, but know about her son? It makes me wonder if Widmore was funding Daniel because of his knowledge and maybe Eloise's refusal to help Widmore. She seemed more than willing to help Ben and didn't seem surprised to see him.

atruebluehusker said...

Does anyone else feel like we have been given a giant load of crap?

I mean, for a season and a half we have been wondering what could possibly have made Jack make a complete 180, from being determined to leave the island to being determined to get back. From a hero to a man who wants to kill himself because he sees an obit. And then we find out, the obit is of a man he thought was crazy, who spoke to him for five minutes and said more stuff that he thought was crazy? I get that mentioning Christian may have turned Jack, but that much? He didn't even like his father? Are we really supposed to believe that two minutes with Locke made that drastic of a change in Jack. Jack? Nothing changes Jack. That was weak.

Furthermore, what made Sayid come back to L.A. to protect Hurley and start killing people. Nothing Locke said, and now Locke is dead. And he was done listening to Ben. What, does Jin come off the island too and start convincing people. And why was the name Jeremy Bentham so "hush-hush"? They didn't even know the name, and if they did, there was no reason not to use it/interchange it with Locke. The pieces aren't adding up, and I admit, that is typical for Lost. But after getting some answers, ones we've been waiting for for a long time and on which the series is hinged, the pieces still don't add up. Feels like somebody wrote themselves into a corner and took a cheap way I used to do when I wrote "books" as a teenager.

This is all just another example of Jack spiking the football. We thought then, what must have happened to change Jack so drastically. Lost's answer. Nothing really. We have been set up for years, and the few pay-offs we've been getting have not been even close to worth it. I am really starting to fear that when this show is done, I'm going to be that guy who went on this great road trip with all his friends but ended up in Enid, Oklahoma.

Hisham said...

I seem to find some inconsistencies in this episode. Like, for example, in the Season 4 finale, Ben asked Jack whether Locke told him that he was off the island, and Jack said yes. But there was no mention of Ben during the encounter between Jack and Locke in the hospital. Also, in the same episode, same scene, Jack said that Locke came to visit him about "a month ago." Did it take Locke a whole month to decide to take his own life? What did he do during that month? It seemed in last night's episode that he decided to commit suicide right after the Oceanic 6 refused going back to the island.
Another point, Jack said to Kate in the Season 3 finale that he had been flying "a lot, hoping to crash." When was that "a lot" exactly? He seems to have booked a ticket to Australia right after Locke left him, and supposedly it was the same flight where he found Bentham's obituary. His beard was different between the two scenes, and there was no time to do anything. Are these mistakes of the writers, or there's something we are yet to find out? In other words, is Locke's story off the Island isn't fully revealed yet?

Brian Douglas said...

One question I have: How did Locke know about Eloise? Did I miss something? Did Widmore tell him? Or Abaddon?

DK said...

Christian told Locke about Eloise right before he turned the wheel.

Teebore said...


Christian told him to look up Eloise Hawking once had had all the Oceanic Six onboard when they were in the FDW cave together in "This Place Is Death."

I like to think of Ben as being that kind of Judas, rather than one that was betraying Jesus/Locke for reward. But I could be wrong.

This made me chuckle, because just as I keep wishing that maybe Ben isn't ALL that bad, I've always much preferred the takes on Judas as a man who is merely fulfilling his role in a greater destiny than ones in which he is merely a greedy, jealous sinner who turns on Jesus.

I'm also (uncomfortably) bothered by the issues raised in this episode regarding the timeline of Jack's breakdown in relation to Locke's death. I still think there are intentionally missing pieces in the Bentham story, especially in regards to what was setup last season, and really, really hope this isn't the last we see of it.

SonshineMusic said...

Wow. questions, a few anwers, more questions. Every Wednesday I feel like I need to decompress my head before it explodes :)

Re Abaddon: Abaddon in the Bible is connected with death and destruction. Definitely not an angel of guidance.

Re Helen's death: I definitely agree that it is not sure that she is dead. I thought the same thing as Blam ... If Widmore can fake the 815 crash, then he most certainly can fake a headstone.

Re Kate: She has always wanted to get off of the island, ever since the first episode that's all she wanted. As things continue to unfold in her life I'm beginning to think that she will never allow herself to love again, not after Tom died. She is attracted to both Jack and Sawyer in different ways, but I don't think she loves either of them.

SonshineMusic said...

oh yeah, I had a really off the wall thought last night when I was watching the teaser for next week's episode. I watched it again today and I'm still thinking it's possible...

When Sawyer takes the bag off of the girl's head it doesn't show her face. Her hair looks too light to be Kate's. Is it possible that it could be Cassidy?

I know, I know, crazy, but hear me out...

How long ago was it that Sawyer ran the long con? three years? Could that be what he's referring to when he asks if you can get over someone in three years? It would also tie in with the proxy idea that Cassidy was on the plane as a Sawyer proxy. We don't see all of the passengers in the tail section.

Just a random thought and I wondered what ya'll might think about it :)

mgkoeln said...

@Hisham: Thanks for mentioning the "one month ago" dialogue. This confirms that definetely some time has passed between Jack's encounter with Locke in the hospital and Jack finding out about Locke's death. And considering the "freshness" of Locke's corpse he shouldn't have been dead for long before Jack read the obituary.

So, I guess a part of Locke's off-island odyssey might have been left out on purpose. Maybe we might still see how he convinces everybody to only use his alias.

I also wonder who put the obituary in the newspaper in the first place. I don't know if it's common in the US to write about any random dead guy in the paper... here in Germany it sure isn't (definitely not in a huge city like L.A.).

Concerning the Widmore-Penny-age-discussion: I have a hunch that Ellie/Mrs. Hawking might be Penny's mother. Maybe she left the island during pregnancy. After Widmore was tricked into exile a few years later he might have seperated Penny from her mother - hence him being unable to use Ms. Hawking's help to get back to the island although they know about each others whereabouts (he sent Desmond to L.A.!). Isn't ot suspicious that we never heard anything about Penny's mother - or did we??? And then again, with the time jumps while leaving the island everythings possible anyway. Charles might even be Penny's son instead of her father. Who knows... (How ironic if Desmond was his dad!)

Oh my, still so much to theorize about. I love this show!

Missing Georgia said...

I have had the same thought regarding Penny not being Widmore's bio-daughter or the product of a Widmore/Hawking hook up and he took her away from Eloise. Or she was given to Widmore for safe keeping. Widmore tells Desmond that there are those that want to harm Penny. Other than Ben, could there be others that would harm her to get to Widmore? Too many questions not many answers yet.

Re:Bentham - I wonder if he had to be called by Bentham in the obit in order to signal to Widmore that he is dead? Widmore was the one that would be keeping tabs on "Bentham's" whereabouts. It is clear that Ben takes over the body as soon as possible and keeps constant watch over it. If Widmore had the body, could he have escorted Locke/Bentham back to the island? Just wondering.

SonshineMusic said...

You know, I did wonder if Ben left John in the hotel room like that, then how did he end up with the body later? Did he claim the body? And if he didn't, then who did?

Also very frustrating that we went through an entire episode and we only kind of found out sort of what happened to Locke. Still don't know how Hurley, Sayid et. al ended up on the plane.

Jouke said...

Hey Nik, nice one! & Hi readers!

Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but:
what happened to John Locke's PLASTER CAST?

It's on ceiling-Locke's leg, but when Jack puts his father's shoes on coffin-Locke it's not...

Could it be standard procedure to remove these from corpses for a funeral (making them look like most people remember them)?
Seems farfetched that he will still be rescued from hanging there and dies in another hanging some time later.

And did anyone else get a 'Return of the Jedi'-brainwave when Locke pulled down his hood on the beach, going "My name is John Locke"? Exactly like Luke Skywalker in Jabba the Hutt's castle.

Greetings from The Hague, Holland!

Chuck Power said...

Hi everybody,
I was thinking about the Ajira flight and have a theory.
I think that most of us have been operating under the assumption that the conditions of the flight had to recreate the original 815 flight.
What if the new flight is a type of course correction? What if the original flight was wrong and this all had to happen to put our castaways in the correct circumstances for their arrival to the island?
If that is the case, it may explain some of the circumstances.

Locke- he was suppossed to go on his walk-about and die. That would make him the corpse on the original flight.

Christian- he was not meant to die in Austalia. He would have been the doctor on the flight and Jack would have never have had to be involved.

Jack- he is now filling the spot that was originally meant for Christian.

Sun- she is a solo Korean on the flight. If she had left Jin at the airport, like she meant to, he would have been a solo Korean on the original flight.

Sayid- he is now a prisoner with a guard. Maybe he was originally meant to be the prisoner on the plane. He was held in custody at the airport due to Shannon being a jerk.

Lapidus- this one is easy, we know he was suppossed to fly the original flight.

Hurley- He was suppossed to miss the plane. He should have never been on the original flight, but Charlie was. Now Hurley has to go back to fill his spot.

Kate- If she's pregnant, maybe there has to be an unborn Shephard on the plane. That part may have been correct but now Kate has to take Claire's place.

Desmond- he got to the island by boat before, he's probably destined to get there by boat again.

If the Ajira flight was more "correct", it may explain why the landing was a little less bumpy. The island may have rejected Flight 815 due to the elements being out of place.

Or we could find out next week that is all rediculous, just wanted to throw the idea out there.

poggy said...

I assumed that when Kate was talking about loved ones to Locke her focus was totally on Aaron. And let's not forget her vision of Claire telling her not to bring him back to the Island. I guess whatever feelings she still has for Sawyer and/or Jack they took a backseat to her concern for the kid.

And here's another Lostaholic who can't make up her mind about Ben and Widmore - whose is "the right side"? Is there even one? Is Mrs. Hawking aiding either or both of them, or is it the other way round - she is the one with an agenda of her own (aka restoring some kind of "neutral" destiny)? Truth is, I totally squeed when Ben killed Locke - both because the acting leading up to that scene was really superb, and because I was beginning to miss Ben's creepyness XD Sometimes it's easy to forget this is the guy who killed his own father with nerve gas, without even blinking as he watched him die. And yet... I don't think he was really milking John for informations just to kill him afterwards. The way Ben delivered his line after killing Locke - he looked truly upset to me. The mention of Mrs. Hawking, perhaps, really caught him off guard and turned the tables. Actually, all the times we've seen him interacting with her, he didn't look in control. He also looked genuinely surprised when Desmond said she was Faraday's mother.

Surely the timeline of Locke's off island adventures looks a bit wonky (although it *does* take quite a long time for an injury like that to heal, IIRC from when my father broke his foot ;-) Besides, Locke being Locke, he just has no luck when it comes to his legs). What bothers me the most is that it wouldn't have taken them much to imply a longer timespan - from the aforementioned progress (or lack thereof) of Locke's healing, to captions just like the ones they used to locate the O6, etc. I wonder if this was written intentionally in an obscure way, or if - oh no! - Darlton just slacked at keeping their continuity in check.

I was sad to see Abbadon die :-( I had a feeling he was coming back this episode and I was sure there was more to know about him, but Ben (and probably the schedule for Fringe) took care of it -_-;;

@ Bay up among the earliest comments: good observation on Penny, how can Widmore be that bad if she is that good? Surely the same could be said about Ben and Alex though... (on a related note, anyone reading "Benry knows best"?)

Karolyn said...

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, in another post for another season. I had this thought last night. There are no old people on the island. Not a single one. Does this mean that you can't grow old on the island? It also makes me wonder if it is possible to die from natural causes on the island? Or is the only way to die to be killed by something (Smokey, planes falling off of cliffs, getting shot)? One final thought. If Ben had a compond fracture in his leg and injuries from the car accident, why doesn't he appear to be injured when he reappears on the island? He died with his leg in a cast, yet does not appear to have any problems with his leg when he's on the beach. Did death cure him of his injuries? I would think that a broken leg would remain broken...

joshua said...

This is completely secondary to today's discussion, but for those who were curious about the song playing in Jin's Dharma van last week, it was a San Diego band called The Donkeys and their song 'Excelsior Lady', which you can hear in its entirety on their myspace page. New band, new song, but sounds very authentically 70's...

SonshineMusic said...

re Karolyn: I guess I just assumed that he had been healed, just like he was healed when he first landed on the island. Besides, I would think that reincarnation would fix you up :)

SonshineMusic said...

Hey Nikki,
Just rereading your post and I had another thought. (I've had a lot of those today ;)

We all assume that the "other woman" that went off with Lapidus was Sun, but what if it wasn't? All the other Losties got separated from the 316ers, so why wouldn't Sun?
My one thought was that the woman was the flight attendant who looked vaguely familiar to me and gave me an uneasy feeling. I don't know.

Karolyn said...

I meant to say if John had a compound fracture, not Ben. Sorry. I'm overtired.

steve said...

Last night’s episode to me made it clear that Charles Widmore is really the bad guy in all of this and that Ben’s is still the good guy (kinda).

Ben’s only flaw is his jealousy. He got jealous of Goodwin because of Juliet and sent him off to knowing he was going to die, the island paid him back by giving him a tumor. Jack came along and fixed him. Ben also sent Karl and unfortunately Danielle to their death and his punishment was to leave the island. His work off the island is part of his redemption to be allowed back to get the O6 together again and get them back. I also feel he had to stop John Locke from committing suicide because just like heaven you can’t get back by doing that. Ben also knew he had to be the one to kill him.
I know this sounds odd but Ben to me is still the good guy.

Now Widmore, He is an angry dude, remember how he acted when Locke showed up at the camp in 1954. He was angry that the old man knew the island better than him. I think will come to find out that he was denied becoming the leader because he was never meant to be. Ben was. I also think that there is something or someone that is preventing him stepping foot on that island. I find it funny that he himself is never actually trying to get back until everything is wiped off the island. Which bring me to my next point – someone must have tipped him off that Desmond would be the key to getting the location of the island, maybe Eloise/Ellie (I’m thinking she is in on it). So he belittled Desmond at every chance he could get and made him feel like a coward ultimately to get him in that race around the world that wound up years later turning that fail safe key giving Widmore the opportunity to locate the island. On a side note Penny received the call when those guys in that bunker in the blizzard received the beacon giving her a heads up. I’m guessing that is why Widmore didn’t allow the people on the freighter to accept any calls from his daughter.
Attempt #1: Widmore hires a bunch of mercenaries to kill everyone on the island. Abbadon hires Naomi to get the loose ends on the boat, Two people who are connected to the island through birth Miles & Charlotte, the pilot who was suppose to fly 815 Frank(who knew something was up) and poor Faraday the time traveling kid that even his own mother is willing to sacrifice, she is a rat! Anyway, we’ll use the science guys to disable the gas and Keamy & Co. would then kill them all including Locke. Widmore does not have the ability to see thing unfold like Ben and Richard. He could only hope that it worked but as we saw it didn’t.
The second attempt, Ajira 316, I’ll bet that everyone in the tail section is another set of mercenaries from Widmore including Ilana and Caesar. The only way to get back to the island was the O6 and that flight so that is why Widmore was equally interested in their safety all those years because that is his one shot of getting back the island. He will wage war. Even Walt eluded to Locke that he is on the beach surrounded by people who want to hurt him. Don’t worry I’m guessing Ben has a man on the inside…Caesar. Why would he hide the gun from Ilana. Apparently Frank and Sun got a gist something wasn’t right and left the one island were Kate & Sawyer were held up in season 3 to the main island possibly to warn Jin & Co. that trouble is coming. You could see that Locke was looking at the island from the beach. I’m wondering where Sayid is during all of this.

Brian Douglas said...

Karolyn: Ben has clearly aged on the island beyond just growth and development.

mgkoeln said...


My guess: The mysterious woman leading Lapidus away from the Hydra island might be (Ghost-)Claire.

humanebean said...

Way to go, SonshineMusic! That has been bugging me for a week - I was sure that I recognized the lead vocal (turns out I was dead wrong) and kept wondering what the inevitable significance of the song might be. Looks like it's just a wink and a smile from the showrunners to the obsessive fans (hello, self!) who spend so much time studying every detail on the show.

poggy said...

Re: resurrected!John's leg - I agree with Sonshinemusic, and besides, there should have been already some degradation at work in Locke's body (he gets to be stored in the butchery cell only in the end); I guess the isalnd resetted that too.

J. Maggio said...

I think there has to be more "adventures of Jeremy Bentham" between Locke being in the hospital and the suicide. Jack's beard itself is a key here. This could be another meeting with Jack in which he told him that Ben was off the island. It also could explain some more of his feelings of failure. I mean, even Jack's explanation--"John said that some very bad things happened, that sawyer, juliet, all died, because I left"--was not mentioned in this meeting.

J. Maggio said...

Regarding old people on Island: Amelia and a couple of the people from Juliet's book club people meeting were old (or old-ish). Amelia was clearly in her 70s.

ronald said...

One of the greatest characters in the history of television! Shakespeare would be impressed. I
think that there will never be a clear read of his actions or his thought processes. As viewers,it's just a higher level of satisfaction not to know and just keep guessing. Just when you think
that you, may understand, he just takes off in another direction. This is the second time that he has tried to kill Locke. It won't be the last time either! Grownup Walt has already told us. Who better to lead the Ajira angry mob then Ben. There was the famous talk\candy bar swap with Hurley where Ben states that shooting Locke wouldn't have changed anything. I think that Ben
has seen the future and knows how it plays out. The trip to the Orchid and the 15yr old crackers and flashing mirrors, Oceanic 6
leading the younger Ben maybe? There are things that maybe different everytime the "record" skips. Jin being alive is maybe a new thing.


brodal said...

Quick thoughts on Widmore and his 30 years comment.

He stated he was their leader for 30 years, not that he was on the island for 30 years, therefore he may have been on the island longer than that.

In 1954, he was 17 years old. He definitely did not appear to be the "leader" at that time. But let's say that in another 4 years, when he's 21, he becomes their leader. That would be in 1958.

If he was their leader for 30 years (and let's assume that did begin in 1958) before he was tricked by Ben to leave the island, then he would have left the island in 1988.

Remember last season-Ben, Locke & Hurley were on their way to the Orchid - There was a stash which included a tin can with saltines & Hurley started eating them. Ben told him they were 16 years old...If this was happening in 2004, then the crackers were from 1988. I thought it was a clue as to when the Orchid was last used.

So I'd say there's a good chance that Widmore moved the FDW in 1988.

Nikki Stafford said...

Oh my goodness, I step away for a minute... :)

Karolyn: You might have a point, though we have seen one elderly citizen of New Otherton: Amelia. She was the older woman who was in Juliet's book club and seemed to support her and had that smirk on her face when Juliet was telling off the guy who hated Stephen King's Carrie. We haven't seen her since, but she was definitely there.

Nikki Stafford said...

brodal: Good thought!! I knew those crackers would come in handy. :)

Speaking of the crackers, notice how Widmore asks Locke how long it's been since he last saw him, and Locke says 4 days. It's been over 50 years for Widmore. Maybe, similarly, those crackers are 15 years old, but they were only left there about 3 days before, if that makes any sense? Island time is weird that way. :)

Karolyn said...

@ Brian Douglas - I said old, not getting older as Ben did. Clearly Aaron aged, if only slightly. But my point is moot anyway. I forgot about Amelia. Silly me. Thanks J. Maggio and Nikki.

Brian Douglas said...

Karolyn: Aaron didn't age, he grew. Aging is the "collateral damage" your body inflicts fighting off diseases and such over time. Growth is the development from infant to adulthood. These two processes are often linked due to they both tracked through time, but they are actually two completely different biological processes.

Danny said...

Awesome episode!! Great observations and connections as usual!

I just have to say that... as much as many people don't appreciate this show... I gain an even greater appreciation after each episode. Good script writing is one thing, but the ability of all of these actors to put themselves in the scene and really show these emotions (specifically Matthew fox...& Terry Quinn in this episode) is just phenomenal. What a brilliant cast. After all of these years, I still can't get over it lolv

steve said...

I thought the crackers were 15 year old crackers?
I'm going out on a limb but is the O6 split in different time period now? Kate, Jack & Hurley are with Jin, Sawyer Juliet in the seventies? Jin's Bus looks new and the whole DI took place in that time. Does that mean Sayid, Locke, Frank, Sun & Ben are in the present 2008? At some point we will see Locke, Sawyer, Juliet, Faradey, Miles and Charlotte stumble across the 815 camp looking for their friends only to find the canoes and an Ajira bottle. Interestingly enough I wonder if Frank and Sun warn the 815 survivors to run and hide before Widmores men arrive. I wonder if at some point ressurected Locke will see himself during that. Maybe try to slow down Widmore's people not to chase after the stolen raft that his past self is on. Remember resurrected Locke only has to buy a few minutes to delay them because he knows the his past self & co. will time shift soon. I wonder about the Sun/Jin reunion, I almost feel that they will see each other but during a Jin timeshift. Wouldn't that be touching they finally see each other and he only has seconds for an embrace before he disappears into the seventies.

Mark R.Y. said...

I love this forum! :)

I agree with one of the anonymous comments that it's perhaps folly to choose between Ben and Widmore who is good and who is evil. They're BOTH ruthless - morality as we know it is to them a luxury neither can afford in their quests for power.

I was shocked when Matthew got shot. The writers/producers on this show are so kill-happy! The deaths on "Lost" lose their impact when there are so many. Of course, "death" has proved to be a malleable concept now re: Locke's resurrection! Now if they can bring back, Eko, Charlie, Libby, Boone, Shannon...(yes, Shannon. I always thought she was becoming a better, more mature person at the time of her death. Her throughline ended prematurely.)

Getting back to Abbadon, am I the only one questioning if Ben was really his killer? We saw Ben trailing Abbadon and Locke when they visited Walt, and Ben "confesses" to shooting Matthew in this same episode. So why not show Ben with the gun during the scene when Abbadon gets gunned down? (True, the assassin could have been someone hired by Ben, still....) By not showing the killer, this leaves TPTB an "out," an opportunity to reveal that Ben had no involvement in it and he only said he did for his own reasons. Time will tell if I nailed this or if I'm simply over-complicating things!

From the previews, next ep. looks like a doozy! See you all next week. :)

Mark R.Y. said...

Ah, one more thing.
@Chuck Power: Cool and intriguing analysis. I'll keep what you theorized in mind as this season continues to unfold!

Missing Georgia said...

I have wondered if Charlotte might be Widmore's daughter and Penny is his adopted daughter. If Charlotte was born on the island, she could be his offspring. It might be one of the reasons that she died on the island as a result of Alex being killed by Keamy. I don't know if this makes sense, but I thought it could be a theory.

Missing Georgia said...

Re: Ben killing Locke - I think he was sincere when he said that he would miss Locke, but if he was killing him to get him to his destined place, wouldn't he expect to see him again on the island? Or does Ben know that he may die trying to get back to the island, so he may not see Locke fulfill his role?

Karolyn said...

@Brian Douglas
Ah, I stand corrected again...I didn't pay attention in hs biology. I guess I should have, so I wouldn't be embarrassed by someone on a blog. I give up, you win.

mgkoeln said...

DarkUFO has some interesting background intel on this episode: The first scene with Caesar & Ilana and then the revelation of Locke on the beach was originally shot as this season's opening sequence but exchanged for the Pierre Chang scene. That explains the overly dramatic way the hooded Locke is revealed. This was originally supposed to be this seasons first WTF-moment.

Same thing with this episode's ending. If they hadn't swapped the braodcast order with last weeks episode, Ben being among the survivors would have been a huge surprise.

redeem147 said...

Seems to me this is one show where you shouldn't be changing the broadcast order.

I think the beard thing is deliberate, to show the passage of time between Locke first contacting Jack and Locke's death.

Anonymous said...

If Ben is the good guy, then why did Jacob ask Locke for help in season 3 and Ben not hear it? Although he may have been lying, Ben told Locke that except for 1 or 2 people (Richard Alpert & perhaps someone else), his people were all recruited. Ben has a massive plan, and it's not good.

ElginPaul said...

Widmore is desperately searching for the island, yet he tells Desmond about Hawking. Hawking gives Desmond and the gang a detailed list of dates, times and airline flight numbers that pass over the island. According to TLE, Widmore was one of the funding partners of the Hanso Foundation/ Dharma Initiative, so he probably knows about Hawking's role with the Lamppost. Why doesn't he just use Hawking and go to the island himself???

Anonymous said...

The scene with Locke reminded me of in the Bible when after Jesus was resurrectured, he ate a fish on the beach to prove he wasn't a ghost - did Locke eat a mango to prove he wasn't a ghost?

Also, Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus and then hung himself. Maybe the island wouldn't let Locke betray it by hanging himself - thus Ben had to kill him with the handy electrical cord.


Anonymous said...

I have a thought regarding the whole Jesus imagery of Locke (that was commented on previously) - this being up my alley as a priest! We could just as easily argue that Jack is the Messianic Figure of the show, as he is the 'good shepherd' who gathers the disciples around him constantly. Also Jesus is sometimes referred to as the 'great physician' - and often performs a host of healings. Locke, in previous seasons is always seen as the divergent voice, a la Judas - who as Alicia pointed out hung himself. So it's hard to say who is who at this point. - - Kyle

Benny said...

I'm gone half a day and 41 comments? This is getting out of hand! A lot of great ideas though.

@Kyle: great to have you here. It certainly seems your expertise will come in handy and can already shed some light on some theological aspects of the show. Welcome aboard.

Benny said...

Regarding the music in 316, this is going to be a head scratcher. The song definitely resembles a 1970s song, so the question now becomes: Is the song in the context of Lost meant to be a 1970s song (relatively unknown band) or is it a sleight of hand to suggest 1970s but it's really 2008?

And... just a heads up but someone who died in a previous season will appear again this season. Although I am not sure aware of the circumstances (flashback/time travel/ghost/etc.)

N! said...

Great review Nikki! I always enjoy your words. I've just watch the episode for the 2nd time and just realized something (and don't know if it's already been said), I think John is in a different time and the O6 (- Aaron) are back on the 70's or some period near that; so, if that's correct maybe Christian is alive in a different time just as Jhon is, just guessing but I think it would be insteresting. Also maybe because Christian needed to get back to the island in the coffin just a John just did. Sorry my english, cheers from Venezuela.

Hisham said...

I'm not sure if someone thought of that already, but now that I think about it, I think Locke isn't "back to life," but rather in a Christian Shephard- like status. Maybe he was all the time being prepared to be the new Jacob?

Ash said...

Nikki- I absolutely LOVE your blogs... and your books. I am constantly watching the past seasons on DVD and I ALWAYS read the episode comments in your books before I watch it. It amazing... given me a whole new level of appreciation for the show... which is a huge compliment because I never thought I could appreciate it more!

Keep the blogs coming! LOVE THEM!

Anonymous said...

That anagram on the hotel name....
If you leave out the letters that were burnt out, you get an anagram for "Wheel Rift Lost" "Where Lift Lost"
The lit letters were West rfiel Hot l.

And Kate was such a B*TCH last night. She kicked Locke when he was down, then kicked him again.

Love your Lost posts, BTW.

edgeshat said...

Yeah, Lostpedia points out that there's a continuity error with what Jack tells Ben what Locke told him in the Season 4 finale to that of the actual conversation between Jack and Locke in this past episode. It's either a mistake on their part, or there's something more.

I still hold out that we haven't seen the real reason why any of the O6 decided to return, especially Jack. Maybe he had another conversation with Locke or maybe it was Christian and that in his drug addled state of mind at the end of Season 4 he got them confused when he talked to Ben. Or he lied to Ben about who he talked to so to not appear insane. Guess we'll have to wait and see if they explain it.

J. Maggio said...

I posted this at Doc Arzt too, but:

I see no evidence that Locke kills himself the SAME night he meets with Jack in the hospital. Jack’s beard growth and further depression in the LAX/Kate scene indicate a few weeks. (And, as another poster noticed, so does Locke healing from the car accident wounds.) This is compounded by the fact that Jack tells Ben that John told him (Jack) that if he does not return that “juliet, sawyer, everyone on the island” would die, and that “some bad things will happen.” Locke didn’t really make that argument to Jack in this initial meeting. Also, Jack mentions to Ben that Locke told him that Linus was off the island. I did not hear that in this conversation.

Plus, right after Locke died, Sayid is in “badass” mode: ready to protect Hurley, in a “safe-house,” etc. I have to believe that the Locke had at least one more meeting with Jack, and maybe Sayid. It is also possible that Walt sought out Locke. This would explain the “Bentham” code that Sayid (and Walt) use.

In summary, I think some time past between Locke’s meeting with Jack in hospital and his suicide-attempt / murder.

J. Maggio said...

And I think Edgeshat is completely correct. The O6 did not need to return to stop the island from "skipping." That happened by turning the wheel again. There is a greater reason why the 06 need to return. We may not REALLY know why until the season 6 end-game.

swac said...

The name "Norwood" immediately conjures up the Sherlock Holmes short story The Adventure of the Norwood Builder, in which a builder fakes his death, hides in a secret apartment he secretly built into his house, in order to frame the son of the woman who spurned him years ago, as an act of revenge. Hmm...faked death, revenge...not that these concepts have anything to do with Lost...

Nikki Stafford said...

J. Maggio: Here's my response I posted on the DocArzt column.

You are all right in saying that Ben’s words don’t indicate that Locke went to see Jack on the same day. That is absolutely correct; I’ve watched the ep 3 times now and that scene with Ben and Locke I watched very carefully to make sure he doesn’t say anything about it being the same day. That said, he does imply that Jack’s plane ticket is the first one he’s booked. He could be lying, but he definitely implies this is the first. Also, Ben says he shot Abaddon but couldn’t get to Locke in time, and Locke got into the accident. Ben needed to stay away from the hospital (he couldn’t be seen by Jack) so he’s waited for his first opportunity to get to Locke after he’s left.

BUT… the real reason why I’m convinced it’s the same day? Look at Locke’s face. All the cuts, scrapes and bruises from the car accident — the ones he had all over his face when he talked to Jack — are all there, are all intact, are all fresh and new. Not a single one of them has healed or even begun to heal. His cast is still fresh and shiny, not covered in dirt and gnarled from months of use. His wounds are gone in the coffin, but that’s probably a really expert mortician. They are most definitely still all over his face when Ben strangles him. So yes, it did happen the same night he went to see Jack, or a day or two afterwards at most.

Teebore said...

@J. Maggio

While I certainly agree there's definitely a passage of time between Locke and Jack's meeting in the hospital and Locke's death (as suggested by the beard and the additional info Locke hasn't given Jack yet) what makes the timing problematic for me is the way Ben tells Locke that Jack has booked a round trip flight from LA to Sydney.

They way it's delivered, the implication is that this is the first such flight Jack has booked, the further implication being that somehow, Locke has gotten through to Jack on some level.

But Jack spent weeks flying over the Pacific with his beard before he read about Bentham's death in the paper.

I certainly believe that between the two scenes in this episode Locke and Jack could have met again, intensifying Jack's desire to return and increasing the number of flights he's taking, all the while keeping this from Locke.

But then why doesn't Ben tell Locke this when talking him off the table? Wouldn't "Jack's spent the last 4-8 weeks flying around trying to get back to the island" be more persuasive than "Jack's booked a flight that seems to suggest he's trying to get back to the island?"

Of course, Ben could be withholding that info from Locke, as he's prone to do, but I can't see a real good reason for it, further suggesting that Locke's death occurred, not necessarily right after his meeting with Jack in the hospital, but definitely BEFORE Jack's full on Pacific-flying obsession...which means Locke was dead for 4-8 weeks before his obit hit the paper? That doesn't seem right...

Teebore said...

And while I'm posting my long-winded response, Nikki manages to say the same thing much more succinctly and to the point... :)

Missing Georgia said...

Re: Locke at the funeral home/obit - We have all been confused about the time passage of Locke's visit to Jack/Jack's plan riding/Locke's death. The one thing that could explain it is that we do not know how long Locke has been dead when Jack finds the obit. Who knows when the obituary was placed. Ben could have staged the whole funeral to get Jack and the others to the funeral home. It could have been a week to two weeks (maybe more) after death before the funeral, which would give more time for Jack to go loony and take all of those flights. It is possible, especially since James Brown (the singer) wasn't even put "to rest" until months after he died while his family fought over him. Just a theory.

edgeshat said...

All good points. Maybe Locke's second meeting with Jack was right as he was released from the hospital. Or maybe it's an extension of the scene with Locke in the hospital bed that we haven't seen yet.

I think I'd rather that Christian be the one that tells him these things, and him saying it was Locke to Ben was just Jack being in denial.

Also the whole idea that everyone called Locke Bentham, but the only one he told about that name was Sayid. Even Walt calls him Bentham, yet Locke never tells Walt that. Another mistake, or another meeting between Locke and Walt? Personally I think it was all just a red herring to trick the viewers at the time.

JenniferS said...

Are we sure Widmore was on the island for 30 years? I heard him say "we", as in maybe his group was there that long, but not Widmore all that time. (Though I like the idea that Penny had been on the island -- that'd explain a lot.) Also, wouldn't Sun have disappeared in the flash with Jack, Kate, and Hurley, and not have been still around to paddle off with Lapidus? Finally, was Terry O'Quinn not FANTASTIC in this ep?

This is the first time I've commented here, but I LOVE your Lost books! Have read them many times.

Brian Douglas said...

I only like your Season 3 and 4 books. The first one didn't have my name in it! And just because I wasn't a poster on your blog to Season 3 is no excuse either.

matthew said...

Hey Nikki, LOVE your blog and books! One thing I've not heard any one reference is that the O6er's that disappeared from the plane are the same ones from Michael's list at the end season 2. Sawyer is already on the island , and we know that Jack, Kate, and Hurley, the other three brought across the island (presumably at the request of Jacob) to the others, are now also in that time frame (as evidenced by Jin also being there).

It would seem what the island/Jacob needs the four of them for requires that they be together temporally. Thus they went where they needed to be and the rest of the plane landed in a continuity of time from when it left LA getting those survivors where need to be because they have other work to do.

Deborah said...

Great point, Matthew. It did not even occur to me that those were the folks on Micheal's list.

I am already looking forward to next Wednesday's episode.

(sorry if this posts twice; I got this screen back again and I don't think I ever have before)

Benny said...

I was thinking about it and something still does not make sense about the desert scene(s).

When Ben materialized in the desert, it clearly said 'Sahara Desert', which is not Tunisia. When Locke materialized, it did say Tunisia. Perhaps this is just misnaming.
Regarding the cameras and why they were not there when Ben appeared, it could be more proof that they are not the same spot. Someone said that Widmore put them there after Ben arrived, but he seemed genuinely surprised when Locke told him Ben had already left.

More so, I was reconsidering the deleted scene from 'Something Nice Back Home' called Desert Stash where Ben is wandering around the desert and comes to a well with a secret stash of money and passports. Nearby, there's a body on the ground that appears to be Ben himself, full dressed with DHARMA parka and blue pants. In the background we can see a fence on top of the rock ledge.

There may be a significant reason the scene was deleted but it raises interesting questions nonetheless, and the well certainly shows a certain connection!

Nikki Stafford said...

Benny: Unless that scene was changed on the DVD, in the original televised version it said, "Sahara Desert - Tunisia." So it definitely pointed us to that spot. (I haven't gone back to recheck, and I could actually be wrong on that, but I'm positive it actually said that on the screen.)

Nikki Stafford said...

I just posted this food for thought on the DocArzt site, and thought I'd put it here, too:

Here’s a thought, back to the whole Penny thing. In Jughead I speculated that Widmore and Ellie got together and had Daniel. But what if they got together and had Penny, but they named her Annie? She became friends with Ben as a child, Widmore didn’t like her being so close to Ben, and he told him to stay away or something. Ben figures out a way to trick him into turning the FDW, but Widmore goes to the wheel with Annie by his side, and they’re both ejected. They get sent far into the future, maybe 10 years, and that’s why Penny is 10+ years younger than Ben. That would also be why Ben hates Widmore so much, and why he looks at those wooden dolls with such longing.

Maybe after Ben left the marina he went to Penny to vow his undying love to her and tell her that he was actually the Ben from her childhood, and Desmond walked in and went to town on him.

This is just me thinking aloud… I’m certainly not married to this idea, but it’s a possibility. A distant, far-off, tiny possibility…

Benny said...

Nikki: maybe I'm watching an edited version, but the one I'm seeing is from a CTV broadcast. It's possible that they have used the DVD version to re-air as I'm not sure whether or not I have the original airing.

Since the Sahara desert extends to the northern part, I'm inclined to say that it is the same spot, which now puts the issue back on the cameras.

weare138 said...

“Die Where Felt Lost.”
I think you might want to try
"Die Where Left Lost" This would explain why locke is not dead and why Tome told Micheal the island wouldn't let him kill himself. This would also explain why Ben killed Locke and didn't let him kill himself as well. The island wouldn't have let him do it. Theory once you have been to the

weare138 said...

to the island you can only die on the island... no where else... "die where left lost"

Nikki Stafford said...

Benny: You could be absolutely right. I shouldn't weigh in until I check that episode again... I'm going by memory, and these days, that memory is shoddy at best. I do remember the Sahara Desert tag, and then he walks into the Tunisian hotel and maybe that's how we put it together, and it wasn't actually on screen. Is that what you're saying it said? If so, I believe you. :) Sorry for questioning you.

In that case, I'm thinking they included it this time to just make it very clear that he was in Tunisia in case anyone missed the reference to the hotel. I was positive the word Tunisia was on our screen at some point, I'm just not sure when now.

Benny said...

Nikki, you're right. We likely put 'Sahara' and 'Tunisia' together out of that segment, but the specification this week could have just been to emphasize.

I don't think there's anything to suggest that it was or wasn't in Tunisia. Hopefully the slight inconsistencies are eventually explained.muloize

Anonymous said...

What about "hell of twister" or "twister of hell"

Anonymous said...

The way the letters are spaced on the sign leads me to believe the anagram is made up of 4 words. Could it be 'W LOST THE RIFLE' the 'W' being Widmore and the 'rifle' being the one Caesar found under the desk?

Blam said...

Benny: Why were the cameras not there when Ben ended up in Tunisia if Widmore had it checked at?

Nikki: I wondered the same thing. You know, when he first woke up and we saw the cameras, I immediately thought they must be Ben's, since Ben would have landed in that spot. Then Widmore said they were his. It seems like something Ben would have done, but then again, if Widmore had been ejected from the island, then he would have also landed in that same spot years earlier.

As you mentioned, Nikki, Ben was accosted right away. I think Widmore's surveillance was in place then, but he had no reason to confront Ben beyond maybe some hired help roughing him up; instead, he just kept track of him (although not well enough to keep Ben from breaking into his bedroom). Either that or Benny's onto something with his later post about the Sahara caption, which I'd totally forgotten about and which makes the most sense.

Nikki: Could Penny be Ben's daughter? I know the ages don't add up (though if they want to stretch and say she's in her mid-20s and not 30, like I suggested, then that would make Ben about 17 or 18 years older than her).

I'm not trying to be rude to Ms. Walger, but I don't see how Penelope is anywhere shy of her mid-30s.

Chuck: I think that most of us have been operating under the assumption that the conditions of the flight had to recreate the original 815 flight. What if the new flight is a type of course correction? ... The island may have rejected Flight 815 due to the elements being out of place.

I love this, so much so that if it isn't an explanation I'm almost afraid I'll prefer it to the real one.

Poggy: Is Mrs. Hawking aiding either or both of them, or is it the other way round - she is the one with an agenda of her own ...?

Whether or not she's Ellie, Eloise could very well be the child of the island's Adam and Eve (or their descendants), and the long-standing Others such as Richard could be too. This would in a way make her imperative to return the Oceanic Six Plus both personal and altruistic, saving -- that is, fulfilling the timeline that will lead to -- the lives of many people.

Poggy: What bothers me the most is that it wouldn't have taken them much to imply a longer timespan...

I just got the sinking feeling that we're going to see a pop-up on this week's 8 p.m. "enhanced" repeat matter-of-factly stating "Locke is distraught in his hotel room because it has been one month since he failed to convince Jack to return to the island."

Either that or we're going to see an epilogue to last week's episode, hastily filmed and presented as the prologue to this week's episode, where Ben comes right back into the room and takes Locke down, saying "Oh, I can't leave you like this, John. I have a friend with a nice freezer where we'll keep you until your hanging body can do me some good."

Teebore: But Jack spent weeks flying over the Pacific with his beard before he read about Bentham's death in the paper.

Maybe Jack flew over the island without knowing it, and while it didn't suck him in (since he was by himself) its temporal fluctuations caused his beard to grow extraordinarily fast.

I said maybe.

Kyle: We could just as easily argue that Jack is the Messianic Figure of the show, as he is the 'good shepherd' who gathers the disciples around him constantly.

I keep coming back to that scene in Episode 6 of Jack putting his dad's shoes on Dead Locke. (Hmm... deadlock: "A situation, typically one involving opposing parties, in which no progress can be made." You come up with that one yet, Jensen?).

Even though Jack is very matter-of-fact in swapping the shoes, there's something both inherently intimate and subservient in the action. Jesus famously washes his disciples' feet in a show of humility (and while there's disagreement over whether the euphemism was still in practice during the writing of the Gospels, in ancient times "feet" was code for "genitals"). Of course, John has seemed more of a Christ figure than Jack, despite his father's name and their last name, Shephard; indeed Jack is shepherding Locke's body back to the island. But many have pointed out their complementing one another as aspects of the same person -- one a Man of Science, the other a Man of Faith, both leaders, Jack being an informal name for John -- and it's possible that if Jack is the island's ultimate savior then Locke is acting as John the Baptist, the herald of the messiah.

SonshineMusic said...

Re Matthew: I've not heard any one reference is that the O6er's that disappeared from the plane are the same ones from Michael's list at the end season 2.

Ah, but, the list that Michael got was not Jacob's list. In season 3, when Jack holds Ben medically hostage so they will release Kate and Sawyer, Danny says, "Shepard wasn't even on Jacob's list."

Which to me is such a strange comment that I have been mulling over it for days since rewatching that episode and I have a lot of thoughts about it.

Benny said...

@Soneshine: nice catch there. I think it points to further evidence that Sun did disappear, we just haven't seen her yet, and that Lapidus left with some other woman.
Actually, could Desmond and Penny have been on the plane, Desmond disappeared and Lapidus, knowing where they are, left with Penny?

But back to the Jacob list. Since Christian is so important, it raises an intriguing question as to shy Jack was NOT on that list!

@Kyle/Blam: someone correct me if I'm wrong. Jesus was not a Christian, (Christianity come from Christ), but Jewish. As well, the Bible has a significant timespan missing from his birth to his adult life when he embraces his destiny, time when he possibly didn't know or had difficulty accepting who he was?
This could very well fit with Jack, who is not a believer in such and needs time to accept HIS destiny.

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: Good one! I was just going to say the same thing as Benny... the fact that Christian is Jacob's mouthpiece, but Jack isn't on the list, is really interesting. All the people on the list have been taken. We've seen some of them integrated into the Others, which is still baffling and probably won't be answered until near the end of the series. I was going to suggest Christian might be protecting Jack, but I don't think he would. What it comes down to is what that list signifies. The good guys? The bad guys? The special ones?

SonshineMusic said...

@Benny: True, Jesus was Jewish. The term "Christian" was actually a bit of a derrogatory term used to make fun of early followers of Jesus and means "little Christs".

Also, yes, Jesus was about thirty when he began his ministry and we know very little about what happened between his birth and this time.

However, it was more of a time of preparation than a time of uncertainty. At the age of 12 he knew exactly who he was and what he had come to earth to do, so it's not a perfect parallel.

Of course, I doubt that the writers of Lost are trying to make it a perfect parallel :D I think they're more just trying to draw some parallels as there are definite Christ overtones in many scenes throughout the series

SonshineMusic said...

Also, something else, that is completely off this topic....

Was anyone else really thrown by the appearance of the other island? Doesn't this mean that both islands move together through time and space?

Very strange

Benny said...

I think that both islands moved is significant of a greater sphere of of influence than just the Island as we know it. Obviously both are connected underwater by some ridge. Whether all of it extends to the seabed is unlikely.

Blam said...

Benny -- As Sonshine said, I don't think Lost is aiming for perfect parallels of the Christ story. It's just the most familiar language we have to talk about messianism. With all due respect to Kyle and other people of Christian faith here: I'm not one, so my reading of Jesus' story is from perspectives of history, narrative, mythology, and sociology. There are stories of young miracle-working Jesus, such as The Infant Gospel of Thomas, but they're not part of the New Testament canon, and while some apocryphal writings are on the same level of historical verfiability/suspicion as what's in the Bible, Jesus as Superbaby is pretty far out there.

Blam said...

I wanted to clarify that the following assumes some of the Oceanic Six and other present-day characters end up as Adam and Eve: "Whether or not she's Ellie, Eloise could very well be the child of the island's Adam and Eve (or their descendants), and the long-standing Others such as Richard could be too. This would in a way make her imperative to return the Oceanic Six Plus both personal and altruistic, saving -- that is, fulfilling the timeline that will lead to -- the lives of many people." Note also that the bones of so-called Adam and Eve in the cave don't mean that they're the only pair of remains dating so far back, or that even if the present-day characters become that generation they'll account for every one of Richard's people.

M9 EGO said...

For me the only interesting part about this episode was the comment Witmore made about "the war". Its got me thinking that the outcome of Lost could be on the lines of the Teminator movies. In the future there is a war (probably with Aliens but could be ourselves ?) and the only way we win the war is if the correct peeps are in charge (Locke or Jack), so we've gone back in time to make sure this happens.
One other thought HOW THE HELL DID LINUS GET LOCKE HANGING FROM CEILING BY HIMSLEF !!!!!!!.....Locke's not exactly a size zero is he !

DeborahB said...

I'm watching this ep again, and just picked up on something that may have some bearing on whether Walt is part of the storyline in the future.

After Locke finishes talking with Walt in NY and goes back to the car where Abaddon is waiting, Abaddon says: "0 for 2? I thought you were supposed to bring them all back, John?" Interesting that Abaddon, the 'guy who gets people where they need to go,' thinks all of the original Losties are supposed to come back, and not just the O6, as many have theorized. Maybe Walt and Aaron (and potentially Jin and Sun's daughter), the children of the group, will get back on the island for a specific reason in the future.

DeborahB said...

Also, regarding whether Ben knew Locke would come back to life on the island (in whatever form) when he strangled him - at first I thought Ben always knew Locke's demise wasn't permanent because we previously saw Ben running around L.A. and nabbing Locke's corpse from the funeral home, preserving Locke's body in a meat locker, and saying everything hinged on Locke.

However, when he says after strangling Locke that "I'm really going to miss you, John," it doesn't sound like he knows he's ever going to be talking to Locke again. If he knew Locke would be alive and kicking on the island in the near future, it seems like he would have just said something like "See you soon, Sparky," or "You'll get over me strangling you to death when you get back to the island." Saying he was really going to miss Locke sounded like a permanent farewell. Something must have changed after Ben strangled Locke to make Ben decide everything hinged on Locke's body getting back to the island - a conversation with Eloise Faraday, perhaps? I don't remember any scenes where Ben said the O6 all needed to go back to the island prior to the funeral parlor scene. Maybe he got that info from Eloise.

Juanita's Journal said...

I noticed that everyone is regarding Locke as some kind of father figure for Walt.

But Walt had a father. His name was Michael Dawson. Michael was not perfect, but he was willing to do anything for his son. Even something horrible as murder. Although Walt wanted nothing to do with Michael after the latter's confession, "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" proved that Walt had forgiven his father. Yet, no one comments on this and instead tries to label Locke as Walt's "father figure".