Wednesday, March 04, 2009

Lost 5.08: LaFleur

“The record is spinning again. We’re just not on the song we want to be on.”

Well, you guys certainly had a lot to say about last week’s episode. There were 143 comments on my original blog post, and 34 on a follow-up I did about part of one scene.

This week’s episode gives us a bridge between 2005 and 2008 (or 1974 and 1977...) and there’s a LOT of food for thought in it. This one will become extremely important in episodes to come, just for what has been established.

“That Was More Like an Earthquake”
So what happened with that time jump? One minute we’re facing what appears to be the back of the four-toed statue (YEEEEESSSSSS!!!!) and the next minute, we’re jumping away (NOOOOOO!!!) Everyone grabbed their heads like they were about to explode, but then realized their headaches were gone and everything had stopped. Did they go all the way back to the beginning? Could Locke heading down the well have somehow jumped them back a couple of thousand years to an ancient civilization? And then they suddenly jumped forward again? It doesn’t explain why it hurt so much to jump forward, but not back, other than the donkey wheel was involved the second time (presumably the headaches came from the, um, record turntable coming to a sudden stop). There were a few Egyptian references in this episode, but that was definitely the most exciting (see below for more).

And I thought JACK had the worst facial hair...
WHAT was up with Sawyer’s beard?? When he jumps into the filled-in well, his beard was on its way to Jeardsville. It’s dark and thick and looks like it’s been growing in real time as they’ve been jumping around. Then they head to Daniel, and it’s light-coloured and normal again. They head to the beach and it’s black again. They hear shots, and run toward them, and it’s normal again. It’s dark on and off later in the camp. I’m thinking they shaved his beard to do the flashforward scenes, and then cut pasted coffee grinds or something on his face (remember doing that when you'd go out as a hobo on Halloween?) and certainly weren’t very consistent about it.

Three Years Forward... Three Years Back
By zipping forward three years in the beginning, I thought they were setting up a new version of where we were in season 1... for the rest of the series we’d be forced to piece together what we’d missed over those three years (we’ve had quite a number of episodes filling us in on the Oceanic 6 and what we’ve missed over there). But by the end of the episode, I was a little worried that that’s ALL we’re going to see of the three years. We’ve spent 4 years watching the first three months on the island, and less than 40 minutes seeing what happened to these people over the following three years in their time. And they’ve certainly put the Skaters (those shippers who want to see Kate and Sawyer together) in a difficult position, because now you have the moral quandary of Suliet to deal with. Kate was in Sawyer’s heart for 3 months. Juliet’s been there ever since. To us, it doesn’t work – there’s almost no chemistry, we don’t have the long lead-up we got with Sawyer and Kate, and the tension of Jack glowering beside them the entire time isn't there either. But to them, it’s been a long time. Sawyer is clearly not over Kate (or he wouldn’t have lied to Juliet) but where is this going to put Juliet? Will she become the other woman yet again? Have the writers just made Kate’s decision for us, and now she’ll end up with Jack no matter what? Hm... (I know I rarely comment on the ships, because frankly for the most part I couldn’t care less, but in this case, it’s a difficult one.)

Highlights:
• The statue!! The statue!! It’s the four-toed statue! We’re finally going to see what it looked like and how big it was and we’ve gone way back to the civilization that made it and... oh, balls.
• Sawyer jumping in the well to save Locke.
• Miles jumping in the car and calling Sawyer “Boss,” and Sawyer calling him “Enos.” HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
• “Yeah, thanks anyway, Plato.” LOL! Sawyer’s nicknames were at an all-time high in this episode.
• Daniel seeing Charlotte again.
• Sawyer telling Alpert about John Locke, and the look on Alpert’s face.
• Sawyer seeing the Oceanic 3 again.

Did You Notice?:

•The giant statue looked very much like one of the Egyptian gods. Seen from behind, it could be any number of them, but I’m thinking it’s either Set or Anubis. Anubis (this photo is a statue of Anubis that was in London, England) has the head of a jackal, body of a man, and we can see ears sticking up on the top of the head (the ears on the island statue don't look this long). He is the god of the afterlife, and that could be essential to this island, feeding back into all the early fan theories about the island being heaven or hell or purgatory. Set the Destroyer is the other possibility, and probably the stronger one for me: he was the god of the desert (notice where Ben and Locke both ended up when they turned the wheel), but also the god of Chaos. His enemy was Isis: Set killed Osiris, and thwarted Isis’s efforts to get him into the afterlife. When Isis’s son grew up, he swore revenge on Set and fought him viciously, with Set removing one of his eyes. Eventually Set was driven out into the desert. Isis’s son’s name was Horus. Or maybe we'll eventually see the other side of the statue and it'll be Locke's face. Now THAT would be creepy. (Kind of like the outside of Dr. Evil's lair in the Austin Powers movies.)
• I pointed out a couple of weeks ago that in Jack’s bedroom he had a reel-to-reel tape deck, and we see a guy queuing one up in the Dharma station.
• How freakin’ excited was I to see Herc from Friday Night Lights (out of his wheelchair!) and Jimmy Barrett from Mad Men in the Dharma Station?? SO FREAKIN’ EXCITED! Aw, thank you, Darlton. I love when my shows come together...
• As the gang heads to New Otherton, Sawyer tells Miles and Juliet to keep their mouths shut and let him do the talking, and that they have to come up with a lie. He’s become the Jack of this gang, just like Jack was telling everyone to let him do the talking and perpetuate the lie about what really happened in the plane crash.
• The fact that Horace offers everyone a one-way trip off the island on the sub shows that the Dharma Initiative didn’t have the same interest in keeping the island a secret that the Others have. Horace clearly didn’t see how special the island was.
• When the alarm in the compound goes off and everyone is ushered into the house, Daniel runs in the other direction (he's not in the house with Juliet, Sawyer, Jin, and Miles). We don't see Daniel three years in the future, either. What happened to him??
• Well, that’s one way to make the English-speaking a lot easier for Jin.
• The necklace that Paul was wearing is the Egyptian ankh symbol. The ankh is the symbol for eternal life.
• As Sawyer is walking through the barracks, right before he picks the flower, you see two people playing chess.
• When Sawyer wakes up on the couch after being zonked by the sonic fence, Horace says, “How’s your head?” and Sawyer just says, “It hurts.” Three years later, the same exchange happens after Horace wakes the morning after his bender, only the speakers are switched.

So Many Questions...
• Presumably, Horace got the dynamite from the Black Rock. Three years earlier, he claimed to know nothing about the boat when Sawyer said he was searching for it on an expedition. Was he lying to Sawyer? Or did he find it in the meantime?
• In “Man Behind the Curtain, we see Ben arrive on the island about ten years after he was born. Fans assumed that was the early 1970s and that Ben was born in the early 60s. But in this episode, Horace has a son by Amy in 1977. Ben is clearly not on the island yet or I think Monsieur LaFleur would be a little freaked out by him. When Ben DOES arrive, Horace is married to a blonde woman named Olivia, and there’s no mention of a child, or Amy for that matter. What happened to the baby and Amy?
• Why did Charlotte disappear instead of travelling to the new time? Do dead people go somewhere else and they don’t time travel? If Charlotte is a child in 1974 when they first arrive at the camp, do the rules of time travel dictate that her dead body can’t travel to that spot? (Jeremy Davies is phenomenal in every scene of this episode, by the way.)
• What did Paul do? Did the hostiles actually kill him, or did Amy? We only see one of them reaching forward to grab a gun away from her, but she never says they killed Paul. Why was he shot? Why were the hostiles about to execute Amy?
• When Mikhail stepped into the sonic fence, he began spewing blood from every orifice. These guys had seizures and passed out. Did Amy set the fence on a lower frequency, one that she could cut out with earplugs?
• Why was Amy able to bring the baby to term on the island? What caused the women to stop having them? The Purge?
• How are they going to explain that Car Mechanic Juliet is actually Fertility Specialist/Surgeon Juliet?
• What would Sawyer know about Creole names?
• Did anyone see the title of the book that Sawyer was reading?
• Will there be any significance to Amy’s baby? Could it be someone we know? (Will they name it Boone, for example?)
• So let me get this straight: Horace isn’t a drinker, and he finds a token that Amy has kept from her dead husband, and he goes nuts, has a fight with Amy, gets really drunk and begins tossing lit sticks of dynamite around? Mountains out of molehills much??

Next week: NOTHING. SOB....... But don't worry, I'll find a way to post on Lost. Don't forget to tune in! :)

UPDATE: Here is the preview for the episode in two weeks:

227 comments:

1 – 200 of 227   Newer›   Newest»
Amy said...

I'm also very curious about what happened to Amy and the baby, since we see Horace with Olivia at (what I presume anyway) is a later time.

When we see Charlotte as a child, we hear her mother say something very briefly. To me, it sounded like Penny. Any thoughts?

Eric said...

Wow, I so disagree with your opening! I liked this episode much more than the the last two, which seemed like just setting things up and going where we knew they would go. This one gave a whole lot more reveals, I though. Well, my opinion anyway!

I few thoughts on the details of your post: I wouldn't assume Horace found the black rock. If the Dharma Initiative is building stations of any kind already, they'd have dynamite of their own.

I thought Sawyer and Juliet finally began showing some chemistry this episode. Like you, I could care less about who ends up with whom, but it's nice to see them acting less stiffly around each other.

After they are zapped by the fence, when Sawyer wakes up, Horace tells him that they have their defensive protocols. I would guess that Amy punched a special code that lowers the level of the fence to something that earplugs can stop and that doesn't kill (phasers on stun ...).

I wonder if Amy and their son leave the island or die and then Horace meets Olivia ... or are we venturing into alternative timelines here?

I would assume that when Charlotte died her body stopped traveling though time, just like any other inanimate object. If Daniel had been touching her at the flash, her body might have come along. Speaking of Daniel, I wonder where he is in the "Three Years Later" time period?

Very interesting questions about whether Amy killed Paul, I hadn't even considered that. I suspect it really was the hostiles, but you never know. Why do you think Richard wanted Paul's body? Just to show that one of the DI had lost his life as well? Did he need the proof to show his people that justice had been served? I'm looking forward to March 18th!

redeem147 said...

My heart broke for Daniel when he saw little Charlotte. I assume that only animate creatures time jump, and Charlotte wasn't animate anymore. :(

I've been shipping Sawyer/Juliet for a bit. I like them together. Back in the van, Freckles.

I love this jump forward. Sawyer (or Jim) has matured and Jin has learned English.

I'm assuming that Horace lied about not knowing the Black Rock. Why tell someone he doesn't know or trust about it.

I think you're right about Anubis. The ankh and the hieroglyphics imply that the island history is linked to Egypt. Though a lot of people wore ankhs in the 70s.

I really loved this episode. Lots of character stuff. All it needed was Sayid :)

Anonymous said...

I think Juliet just delivered Jacob.

redeem147 said...

Oh, and there was a parallel between Daniel losing Charlotte's body and Amy losing Paul's.

Missing Georgia said...

Was Miles or Daniel shown again in the Dharma time once they were living there among them? We know Daniel was part of the initiative in one of the earlier episodes this season. I wonder what happened to Miles. I may have missed as I had two crazy toddler thwarting bed time.

The scene where Juliet was cooking dinner for Sawyer was reminiscent of the scene that was shown in Juliet's back story where she was cooking dinner for ? (the guy she was seeing at the time, I cannot remember his name, that Ben sent to his death).

I think that Horace's story was pretty weak for why he went on the bender with dynamite. He was upset that she kept her dead husband's necklace? What a tool. She had to give his body up to Alpert and the necklace was all that she had left.

I think Amy's baby is going to be someone important, I just do not know who it will be.

What kind of truce did the DI reach with Alpert and the others? I was struck by Alpert's statement that his people would need some kind justice. Is Alpert the leader like Locke and Ben or is he a different kind of leader? I cannot wait until there is a whole episode about Alpert.

I had the same reaction as Nikki when I saw the tape player at the beginning of the episode.

Not much else to comment about until there is more discussion. This episode was a little bit of a let down, but I guess we all needed a slow episode.

Eric said...

To Missing Georgia: Miles was in the Three Years Later time period when they were living among the DI. He went with Sawyer to pick up Horace after he passed up from drinking.

Benny said...

Some comments might overlap with previous post!

Nikki, first I'll comment on the narrative, as you did. If you take notice of how the time-shifting narrative has evolved from the beginning of the season, it went from really chaotic (time jumps with off-island story telling) and calmed down, went to straight linear narrative (316, Bentham) and now we had a 1:1 flashes. This is kinda setting the stage for standard flashes we've been used to in the first seasons. And this is possibly how you fill in the blanks of what has happened to the O6 (parts that are still a mystery) and what happened to the other survivors.

I'd just like to thank everyone who liked my idea that the three years elapsed for the O6 was the same time as for the islanders. Though my 1970-1973 was somewhat off (1974-1977), I appreciate those who found it special.

I was so excited about the statue and then it just disappeared. At first I thought it looked somewhat like Kate's back.

My highlights are almost all Sawyer (well it was a sawyer episode):
-Him talking to Richard as well.
-Coming up with his (quite familiar) story about how his group landed on the island.
-And his reaction when we see Richard walk in: "Uh Oh!"
-Juliet yelling at Daniel to stop walking.
-I was really excited to see Reiko Aylesworth. Loved her from 24 and knowing she's in at least two more episodes is just great!

Questions (and answers)
-Horace with the dynamite. I think he got interested when Sawyer first mentioned it and eventually, during those three years, some wanderings lead him to the ship.
-Interesting mention of Olivia. He was originally with Olivia when they found Ben on the mainland was he not. Which could suggest that this happens sometime after that. In Curtain, he says they've had problems with the hostiles. Maybe the truce happened after that, until the Purge. Possibly because of specific deaths? I would think as well that with Roger being angry at Horace, he would have kept Ben some distance from him. We will definitely see young Ben later on, this cannot be approached. Another post on that once I clean it in my head.
I any case, this is an interesting question that can only make us speculate.
-I think the easy answer in that dead people cannot jump through time. As for Daniel, you're absolutely right. Despite his so few scenes, they were still powerful. Always love Jeremy Davies's acting.
-What is more interesting to me about Paul than who shot him is WHY the natives wanted his body. There must be some connection with the dead in this.
-Remember that Horace said that there were specific safety procedures. I think that you're idea is right on, Amy set it to a different setting and protected herself. When Mikhail went through, no one touched the panel, we just know it was set to non-lethal.
-From the discussion with Sawyer and Juliet, there is definitely something at play we are not aware of yet regarding pregnancies.
-Car mechanic; reminds me that we just saw the repair station (Garage) of the DI. -Sawyer knows a lot of stuff, that's who he his, remember that he does red a lot. My question is how did he so easily make up that story about his shipwrecked team on the search of the Black Rock from England?
-Missed it.
-I was so expecting a name right away!
-Something else affected Horace. Maybe he knows something was odd with Paul's body and found out recently and seeing the necklace brought things back. Overreaction yes! But maybe it just helped with the storytelling.


Some personal comments.

I think this puts to rest the idea that Sawyer's group attacked the DI in 'Curtain', but when Sawyer and Richard were talking, I thought that he would be asked to infiltrate the DI.

As anyone else noticed that the music this season has really taken cues from the first season? Especially from the first half of it. It's organic with hints of the progression throughout the series. What's to say about Giacchino.

Did anyone else get a glimpse of the Jin/Sawyer uniform and thought they saw a Sheriff's star as the logo? Any other thoughts?

Sawyer convinced Juliet to stay for the two weeks. I want to know if there is more to why she stayed than just her falling for him? It seems she just can't seem to leave the Island. For her it's now 6 consecutive years.


@Amy: I think this is at a later time than Olivia. But obviously I can be wrong. Just that she is with him when they first find Ben at his birth, which should be 60s or early 70's at the latest.

@Eric: I agree that it was a great one for me too.

@Anonymous: I thought that a possibility but Richard circa 1954 knew about Jacob, which to me seems to suggest this wasn't Jacob. There's not enough to got onto here but that's just my thought.

@Missing Georgia: ...for Goodwin. True. Fits better than my thought about the scene where Ben is cooking for her and she rejects him.

Missing Georgia said...

Thanks, Eric. I didn't see it when they picked up Horace.

Teebore said...

Wow, I love that you got to post this so early! Thanks, Canadian TV!

I just finished watching the episode, so everything is still very raw. Upon first impression, I think I liked this one a bit more than you did, but some afterthought in the hours ahead may change my impressions.

One thing that bothered me though, was the use of the time stamps. The initial one, to let us know three years had passed between "Just said goodbye to Locke" and "Sawyer's the head of DI security" was okay, but I felt they were unnecessary after that...this show has enough of a history of using flashbacks for us to figure out which narrative we were watching on our own. A minor nitpick, but there it is...

just like Jack was telling everyone to let him do the talking and perpetuate the lie about what really happened in the plane crash.

Except to me, Sawyer did a much better job of it. Of course, that's because he is a professional liar :)

Amy's baby has to be someone important, but I can't think of any guy offhand who would fit the age (aside from Boone).

I also think Ben almost has to be on the island at this point (1977), or pretty close to showing up.

Then again, as far as Juliet is concerned, he's living with the Others, as he always maintained that he was born on the island and presumably she knew that. Imagine her surprise when she bumps into Roger Work Man's son...

I don't consider myself a shipper of any sort, but I do feel bad for Juliet. I kept thinking back to the season three episode in which her and Kate had their rumble in the jungle, and how Juliet is definitely owed a rematch. Kate just can't make up her bloody mind and Juliet's the one that has to suffer.

Speaking of which, it's interesting that the Oceanic Six/Five/Three were told they needed to go back to help the people they left behind...but as Juliet's conversation with Sawyer suggested, the Left Behinders don't really need their help. If anything, it seems like the appearance of Jack, Hurley and Kate are going to do more immediate harm than good in the lives of Sawyer, Juliet, etc.

Of course, the fact remains that the island wants them back for some unknown reason, and it probably just told Locke to tell the Oceanic # what it knew they needed to hear to come back.

Anonymous said...

Here is my crazy theory. i think that Paul, and Amy are plants from the others. This is why:

Paul's neclace is an ankh, not a cross. The Ankh is the egytptian symbol of life. If Niki is right (and let's be honest, we all think she is) that links him to the eyptian statue that Sawyer and the group saw at the well. We don't see Amy and the boy child at all in the future when Juliet originally arrives. Depending on the time frame, could that boy be Carl? Again, another link to the others. Horace (which is an important egyptian name) could be seen as a plant as well, given the fact that he is the one who makes the cabin which is used by Jacob.

That's my theory anyway. What do you all think?

Kyle.

SBK said...

My thoughts on the baby... I believe it will turn out to be Desmond. I don't believe we know his lineage and he is special with a connection to the island.

Nikki Stafford said...

Eric: Yay, I elicited a wow! And... oh... it was to say how much you disagreed with me. :( Fair... often episodes grow on me to the point of being my favourites, so this one might, too. I think I've been so caught up in the Widmore/Locke/Ben/Oceanic 6 stuff that I really missed it in this episode.

I did say that I liked the way they switched back and forth between the two, that in the beginning it felt like we were going back to the beginning, which I loved. I was just a little surprised that we're going to miss everything that happened in between (possibly).

I also said that I think this episode will become extremely important in the episodes to come.

Hmm... maybe I should just remove any criticism from the top of the episode, since it looks like that's all anyone's going to focus on.

Anonymous said...

HEre's an additional thought regarding my theory. It seems that the others, with Ricchard Alpert, have always been on the island. The Eyptian statue was definately pre-darma, so Paul's ankh then, links him to life on the island pre-darma as well. Also it would seem very likely that the others, at least pre-ben, may have had some religious/spiritual identity. Also given the fact that Ben sends his daughter and boy-toy carl to 'The Temple.' this seems to back that up.

Kyle

Nikki Stafford said...

Amy: I think her mother just says something like, "Come along, love" in a British accent. I'd have to go back and double check, though. :)

Eric: Really interesting idea about alternative timelines! :)

As for why Richard needed Paul's body, I think there could be something more important there. If you combine Paul's ankh (eternal life) with the Others really wanting that body, I think there may be more to it. Could Paul be Jacob? Hmm...

redeem: Back in the van, Freckles. LOL!!! Did anyone else think that scene was a little overdone, with Kate coming out of the van and suddenly appearing in the scene, and the three of them standing evenly distanced apart staring at Sawyer? (And I wondered why he appeared in his Dharma duds and not in that nicer paisley shirt with jeans or something.) ;)

Benny said...

@Teebore: I agree with you regarding the time stamps. But I think their use was to make us realize we weren't moving forward in those during those three years. It's pretty much a one/two days span.

@Kyle: Interesting. You definitely have good points. Horace has something to do with all of this given the Cabin. It could be that it binge trip was more of a reaction to seeing the necklace (possibly knowing its significance) and uses Paul as a cover?

@SBK: Quite interesting, I wonder how they'll explain his Scottish accent if it is the case.

Nikki Stafford said...

Missing Georgia: Good catch on Juliet cooking dinner for Goodwin and Sawyer. I also noticed that she was on the island for 3 years and started seeing Goodwin shortly after arriving and was with him almost that long only for him to be impaled, and now she's been with Sawyer for 3 years just for Kate to show up.

And yes, Miles is Enos. HAHAHA! (Man, I loved that line.) ;)

Nikki Stafford said...

Benny: Great idea about the dynamite. I think so, too... if he didn't already know about the Black Rock (I don't think Dharma would have looked all over the island the way the survivors did) he probably decided to start looking for it. Or maybe Sawyer showed it to him because they needed dynamite for something along the way.

Nikki Stafford said...

Eric: I like your idea that Charlotte's body becomes like any other inanimate object on the island. I wonder if there could also be a more supernatural element to it? Could all those bodies on the beach have disappeared with the time jumps? (You mean Nikki and Paulo could be gone forever? YES!!!!)

SonshineMusic said...

I agree with you Nikki, that this wasn't one of my more favorite episodes this season. First of all - no Ben :) and second of all - gkkkk Sawyer and Juliet. :(
Now, I don't really care too much about Kate except for the fact that Sawyer loves her. And no matter WHAT he says, he still loves her.

When he tells Juliet that he's gotta go, I squeed "It's his Kate face!" I am telling you, that look he had when he saw Kate again, he has never come even close to looking at Juliet that way.

Pete's sake, the writers have put them all in quite a sticky predicament. Interesting to see how it all plays out.

SonshineMusic said...

Someone else touched on this a little bit, but I was struck by the name Horace and how it sounds like the Egyptian god Horus.

I gave myself a quick refresher on Horus and found it very interesting.
Horus is represented by a hawk and weren't there an awful lot of Egyptian hawklike symbols on the numbers in the hatch, etc.?

Also he was sometimes called by another name, which means "the great black one". ummmmmm sound familiar?

Horus is the god of the sky and the god of war and is associated with the Pharaohs.

So maybe the statue was of Horus?

Nikki Stafford said...

Kyle: interesting theory on Karl! We never did find out where he came from, and that's a good thought.

Hunter said...

What I want to know is...what the frak happened to Rose and Bernard in those 3 years?!?!

Nikki Stafford said...

Teebore: Speaking of which, it's interesting that the Oceanic Six/Five/Three were told they needed to go back to help the people they left behind...but as Juliet's conversation with Sawyer suggested, the Left Behinders don't really need their help. If anything, it seems like the appearance of Jack, Hurley and Kate are going to do more immediate harm than good in the lives of Sawyer, Juliet, etc.

Excellent point, and I just rewatched the very ending again and thought exactly the same thing. What exactly does Sawyer need from them? Anyone else think the Oceanic 5 may have been used as pawns to get Ben and Locke back to the island, and no one actually needs them? Maybe the only way the plane would find its way back is to have some of the originals on it, but I don't see how they could help anyone. At this point everyone seems to be living rather happily (except for Dan, who's disappeared) and they have their ticket off the island should they ever want it. Their only predicament seems to be a Life on Mars one, being stuck in 1977.

Nikki Stafford said...

Hunter: OMG, excellent question! I keep wondering about them every once in a while, but you are absolutely right... how were they handling those time jumps?! And we seem to have lost all the redshirts now.

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: Yeah, I generally think ships are just trouble if you focus on them too much (I never want the comments section to turn into an argument over who will end up with whom) but poor Juliet... I don't know what they'll do now.

Teebore said...

Their only predicament seems to be a Life on Mars one, being stuck in 1977.

Yeah, and at least as far as we know at this point, there isn't anything Jack, Kate, etc. can do to fix that.

SonshineMusic said...

Did anyone else wonder as much as I did what Daniel meant when he kept saying, "I won't do it"?

Won't do WHAT?

Also, I don't think we have ever, ever, EVER heard Juliet raise her voice before. It really made everyone stop in their tracks! haha :D

Benny said...

@Hunter: my guess, they eventually died/were killed and end up in some sort of cave not far from a beach... there was a hint in a podcast that their story is not done, but there was some feeling that their lives were.

Maybe they didn't handle the jumps well (their age?) like Nikki mentioned and died during one of the jumps. They were near the caves when the fire arrows landed.

Anyone remember how long Jack said the bodies had been decomposing?


@Teebore: But maybe Desmond can do something about it?

Teebore said...

@Benny...interesting though re: Desmond.

@SonshineMusic: I assumed Daniel was talking about warning Charlotte, that he won't warn her and inadvertently start her obsession with the island, but that is an assumption at this point...

edgeshat said...

Well, I went back and did a quick run through of the first Horace appearance, "Man Behind The Curtain". Although we see him in the car with Olivia and they both have wedding rings, it's not explicitly stated that they are married, unless I missed something. For all we know, they could have been brother and sister, or just friends. Maybe the writers felt that since they never really said what Horace's relationship was with Olivia they could have him be married to Amy. Or Olivia just died or they got divorced and he remarried.

It's hard to pin down when LaFleur takes place with Curtain. I assume Curtain takes place before b/c Horace's hair is different, it's shorter in Curtain than LaFlear. Plus Richard has longer hair and looks unkempt. Not wearing clean cloths like in LaFleur. But then at the end of Curtain, when we see the Purge many years later, Horace's hair is still shorter. I guess it was to maintain continuity in the episode. Oh well, I'm just being nitpicky :)

Ali Bags said...

@Niki 'Did anyone else think that scene was a little overdone, with Kate coming out of the van and suddenly appearing in the scene, and the three of them standing evenly distanced apart staring at Sawyer?'

Totally agree - Hurley would have just run at Sawyer and hugged him wouldn't he? He wouldn't have been all dramatic like that. Jack looked that most pleased to see Sawyer - maybe that's another ship on the horizon. lol.

I don't care who Sawyer ends up with(I just want him for myself), but I thought the 'I love you' scene with Juliet was quite well done once I got over my initial squirms. It was reasonably convincing. I really like the idea of Sawyer, Miles, Juliet and Jin being a little gang - I'd join it.

My best moment was when Sawyer called Richard that 'guy with the eye liner' That was a shout out to the fans!

I actually really liked that episode, there were a few OMG moments and the previews were nicely misleading.

Saza said...

Biggest laugh by far that no one has mentioned....the eyeliner line by Sawyer about Richard. HA!

Wait a minute....didn't egyptians wear eyeliner? And Richard does have that middle eastern skin tone....hmmm.

Hunter said...

An interesting parallel I noticed in our love parallelogram (see what I did there?) is that Jack asked Kate if she was with him when they were on Penny's boat and she said she was always with him. In Lafleur, Sawyer kept hounding on Juliet to have his back and she said that she did. It probably doesn't mean anything...except that everyone has everyone's back, which could become kind of weird...

And no one commented on Sawyer's Guyliner line? I thought that was priceless!

ARTAR said...

just curious, do we know exactly WHEN 815 crashed. we always assumed it was 04-05 BUT other than red sox winning WS off island what evidence is there that island is tied to a specific time prior to Ben turning wheel.

Hunter said...

Fantastic. As soon as I bring up the eyeline I realize I'm a minute too late. Now where did I leave that donkey wheel...

Hunter said...

The plane crash September 22, 2004. It's been mentioned several times on the show. This was the date that first episode aired as well.

Missing Georgia said...

I did like the way "La Fleur" was incorporated into the show in various ways. I thought it was funny that Sawyer would pick such a "flowery name." He doesn't strike me as the flower kind. Also,he picks the flower to give to Juliet when she makes him dinner. This episode showed a blossoming love story between Sawyer and Juliet/blossoming love story to a certain degree with Horace and Amy. There is a blossoming/ change in character with Sawyer being settled down and responsible when compared to his first season self. And I also thought it could be applied to the birth of Amy's baby. Amy was also wearing a flowery shirt when our Lost folk find her.

Ali Bags said...

@Missing Georgia - 'Amy was also wearing a flowery shirt when our Lost folk find her.'

I particularly noticed that as I had a Laura Ashley Dress in the early 70s, which was THE THING for the fasionable 8 year old to be seen in and it was kind of similar! I was thinking the costume people did well choosing it.

Sawyer himself was wearing a flowery shirt at one point, I think.

ARTAR said...

hunter thx for exact 04 date. my question is ...what evidence do we have that they landed in the island set in 2004?

Missing Georgia said...

Ali Bags - Yeah, I forgot to add Sawyer's flowery, paisely shirt. I totally remember Laura Ashley growing up and had a LA doll that I adored. I think my sister and I also had LA dresses. I agree that was a good call by the wardrobe department and it also helps establish the fashion timeline. :)

eB said...

Sawyer finally gets a badge (logo) to go with his "there's a new sheriff in town" statement!

Maybe in 3 years' time Daniel is busy with the Orchid and too busy deciding what to say / not to say to redhead children.

Missing Georgia said...

In regards to the next episode previews: I find it hard to believe that Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, Miles and Daniel would become so entrenched with the DI that they would turn on the rest of the Oceanic 6. It just doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if this apparent battle is what helps lead to The Purge.

ARTAR said...

correct me if im wrong: locke does not have a 3 year gap in his storyline. he leaves island, meets widmore and 3 yrs have passed for everyone else. when locke returns to island only days have passed for him but three yrs (and in widmores case many since he last saw locke) have passed for others

Benny said...

@ARTAR: the only suggestion we have is that the Oceanic 6 are rescued in the appropriate timeline. This would mean that they crashed out of sync from 2004 to X and were rescued from X to 2004 (since it's confirmed from Oceanic). I don't think there is any significant evidence that suggest they are in any specific year while on the island.

Did you have a theory in this regard? It might be interesting to discuss.

Ali Bags said...

I can't understand why Jin would stay on the island - wouldn't he have got on that sub to go find Sun?

Missing Georgia said...

Artar - I believe that you are right in your assessment of time for Locke. He has not had the 3 years time lapse that the others have had from what has been shown in the previous episodes.

thomwade said...

"I did say that I liked the way they switched back and forth between the two, that in the beginning it felt like we were going back to the beginning, which I loved. I was just a little surprised that we're going to miss everything that happened in between (possibly)."

The producers had mentioned they found a new approach for the flashbacks this season...if this it it? I like it.

ODM said...

I freeze-framed the statue. It appears to be holding an anhk in what would be it's right hand -- not quite like the Set picture you have (ankh in left hand) but close.

Daniel saying "I won't do it" was him reminding himself not to tell Charlotte that she would die if she returned to the island. Perhaps Daniel is trying to change the future?

Eyeliner = Egyptian ... Pharoah?

I like the theory about Juliette delivering "Jacob". Freaky.

Why did the "hostiles" need justice, or for that matter, Paul's body? Do the hostiles reinhabit/reanimate dead people??? God knows there are enough reincarnated people running around on the island at one point or another.

Also, did you notice that when Alpert was talking with Sawyer and Sawyer said he wasn't Dharma that Alpert asked him "WHAT" he was, not "WHO" he was? Makes me think about the scene between Ben and Widmore when Widmore says "I know WHAT you are boy" ... Nikki, I think you pointed that out in your book as well.

And finally, if someone can make a "Jawyer" reference (?!?), I have just one word:

Clater

Benny said...

@ARTAR: re:Locke, that is right, Locke is missing some time in his storyline, but in that effect so is Ben (10 months).

Also, I don't think we have any significant evidence to suggest they are in the same time as the O6 (or a different one). There definitely is something at play since Ben, Locke and the rest were not transported in the flash. But as to when they are, we can't say yet!

Benny said...

@Ali: not if he knows he's in the 1970's and there is no point in going off to find a non-relevant Sun. I think they're really banding together.

Ali Bags said...

@myself 'I can't understand why Jin would stay on the island - wouldn't he have got on that sub to go find Sun?'

Duh - forgot that it's 1974 or wahatever and Sun hasn't even been born yet. Jeez Lost confuses my tiny little brain sometimes.

redeem147 said...

Ali Bags - what good would it do for Jin to find Sun before she's born?

ARTAR said...

Benny thanks for the multiple comments. My guess is that all have arrived at the same time/year on the island. I just think from a storytelling standpt itd be too confusing. I don't think they would put two sets of characters on the island at different pts. But then again theyve thrown a lot of crves at us theu the five seasons.

My theory on WHEN 815 is that maybe they didnt land in 2004. Someone(maybe it was nikki) previously noted that time when horace met Ben doesnt match up. SO maybe 815 lands in say 2020.

Ali Bags said...

Thanks redeem - I realise that now, it took me a few minutes but my two and a half brain cells finally got there. Put it down to too much time travel (and a whole episode of Sawyer addling those brain cells). Lol.

ARTAR said...

missing georgia- thx for also confirming my thoughts on locke.

as for Ben...this is what Nikki stated "Man Behind the Curtain, we see Ben arrive on the island about ten years after he was born. Fans assumed that was the early 1970s and that Ben was born in the early 60s" ASSUMED is the keyword... just like we assumed when 815 crashed they went from 2004 off island to 2004 on island. maybe they landed further in future which would explain Ben's age. Im probably way off base and its late at night thx for listening...

Benny said...

@ARTAR: yeah, 316ers being in the same time is definitely possible. I'd add to that: the flash was to be sure none of the returnees died in the crash, but the island had not accounted for Frank's flying. Locke being alive was going to happen regardless (as with Christian).

As for the 815 landing in a different time, it's a possible scenario. It may be revealed later that it has all been a different year while on the island. I say this: if they don't specify any year for that period during the remaining of the show, I assume it was 2004.

Gary said...

Another good episode!

I'm puzzeled as to how and when Horace discovers Jacob. Did he become aware of him upon his death in the purge or during his life with the DI?
Was Jacob exclusively a part of the mythology of the others or did certain members of the DI believe in him or speak to him?
He presumably builds the cabin as a romantic getaway, but could Jacob have instructed him to build it before the purge as a kind of temple for talking to Jacob?
I recall hearing someone say that they(the DI) normally sent pregnant women to the mainland to give birth. Does this mean that maybe this problem always existed even before the DI?
When Daniel repeats "I won't do it", I think he is trying to tell himself that he won't talk to Charlotte about not coming back to the island but Daniel knows that this amounts to changing the past. He knows that won't work. He will make contact with her anyway and she will go on to become obsessed with returning to the island.

Benny said...

@ARTAR: from production notes for the show, Ben was born in 1963-64, that's one date you can go from. And we know Sawyer et al. join DHARMA in 1974 (mentioned on the show). So going from these two dates, we can only try to put the pieces together.

ARTAR said...

Benny: I def think 316 is on same time line as o6, "la fleur" and all in 1974. which leads to another question how does cesar know his way around in 1974 so well if he was traveling there from 2007.

as for WHEN 815 lands: my wife just remembered Juliets interaction with Ben when he showed her video of her sister off island. i can't remember but did we see Richard off island and holding a newspaper with a date??
this would be proof that time was at or near on and off island.

Mark R.Y. said...

When Daniel sees little Charlotte, I thought, "Ah ha! As was stated in season 4, she was born in 1979. So they must be in 1981-82! But then it turns out it's '74? Time warp! Oh, but wait. BEN was the one who said she was born in '79....hmmmm. Well, we'll see if this plothole gets explained...

Anonymous said...

Amy's child can't be Jacob. Jacob has been around since before 1954 when Locke mentioned his name to Richard in "Jughead"

Tanyam

Mark R.Y. said...

Oh yes, and I find it cool that Dan from "Mulholland Dr." is on "Lost" now! :)

Deborah said...

Loved the return of Sawyer's nicknames! And also that he got an episode centered on him.

Where are Sun and Lapidus?

Are Sawyer, Jack. Kate, and Juliet going to try swinging now?

What's this about no new episode next week?

Blam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Blam said...

I didn't see all of the pop-up info on the "enhanced" repeat, but if the "enhanced" pop-up info is canonical, then we have confirmation on a couple of things that were potentially outstanding: (1) Michael died on the freighter, which I'm pretty sure the producers had confirmed. (2) Locke's father was killed in the episode "The Brig" — so Cooper really was Locke's father, and he really was brought to the island (presumably by submarine) and not manifested by the "magic box" Ben talked about.

On to "LaFleur":

Nice shot, Juliet!

I must confess that I didn't notice the continuity issues with Sawyer's beard in 1974, but in 1977 his scruff and flat-ironed hair reminded me a little too much of Kid Rock.

Whoa. Sawyer... excuse me, James is concerned about at people and... um... smiling... and opening up to Horace and saying "I love you" to Juliet. He's domesticated, even.

Daniel being distraught over losing Charlotte (in more than one way) was sad, but I wonder if plot-wise it wasn't necessary because otherwise Miles might've been able to find out stuff from her that we can't know yet. Come to think of it, it would've been nice to have him pick up thoughts (if he could) from the dead hostiles and Paul to find out what had been going on.

Sawyer's reference to Alpert as Mr. Eyeliner (Captain Eyeliner? Eyeliner Man?) would've been funnier if I hadn't wondered how the hell he could've seen Richard's eyes in the shadows at that distance. Yeah, he's seen Richard before, but he doesn't want Horace to know that.

Nikki: It’s the four-toed statue! We’re finally going to see what it looked like and how big it was and we’ve gone way back to the civilization that made it and... oh, balls.

Ah-yup.

Nikki: Could Paul be Jacob? Hmm...

Paul was the Walrus, silly.

Nikki: What happened to the baby and Amy?

Maybe Juliet and Sawyer did change the past by saving Amy from the "hostiles" -- but that doesn't explain why Ben wouldn't be there yet, unless it's just ripples of the butterfly effect somehow. Or...

Teebore: I also think Ben almost has to be on the island at this point (1977), or pretty close to showing up. Then again, as far as Juliet is concerned, he's living with the Others, as he always maintained that he was born on the island and presumably she knew that.

Exactamundo! From a continuation of my above reply to Nikki before I read yours: Do Sawyer and even Juliet know that Ben lived in the Dharma camp? He used to tell the Others that he was born on the island, remember, and those not around as long as Richard wouldn't know differently. Perhaps Juliet and Sawyer just don't know to look for him there, so a kid named Benjamin wouldn't jump out at them as being significant. And it's possible that Ben is there, and that last names aren't used by the Dharma Initiative (although this could easily be contradicted by examples that don't come to mind for me).

Teebore: Amy's baby has to be someone important ...

Why not just an important baby in general because it establishes that babies could be conceived and birthed on the island at that point (assuming Amy & Horace didn't enjoy a special night off the island)? Then again, it could be Miles, if he isn't Dr. Chang's baby (in which case he'd have to not know what his mom, or at least birth mother, looked like).

Nikki: And I wondered why [Sawyer] appeared in his Dharma duds and not in that nicer paisley shirt with jeans or something.

It was damning enough that he didn't tell Juliet what was going on. Can you imagine if he'd stopped in front of a mirror to check his hair?

Benny: If you take notice of how the time-shifting narrative has evolved from the beginning of the season, it went from really chaotic (time jumps with off-island story telling) and calmed down, went to straight linear narrative (316, Bentham) and now we had a 1:1 flashes. This is kinda setting the stage for standard flashes we've been used to in the first seasons. And this is possibly how you fill in the blanks of what has happened to the O6 (parts that are still a mystery) and what happened to the other survivors.

Very nicely observed, and I'll also agree with you on Michael Giacchino's scoring, which I've appreciated since Alias.

In the first episode of the year, we got a flashback to the '70s Dharma era on the island, but it was the future in terms of the main narrative and Faraday's existence. Now if we get flashbacks to more of the Oceanic Six's time off-island or to the lives of the new characters from the Ajira flight, we'll be seeing their pasts but events that take place in the future of the island time we're currently witnessing.

Benny: I don't think we have any significant evidence to suggest they are in the same time as the O6 (or a different one). There definitely is something at play since Ben, Locke and the rest were not transported in the flash.

Could it be that the island dropped them into different times, where it needed them either to preserve the timeline or to alter for the better the one we know as having happened?

redeem147 said...

I'm assuming women went off-island to have babies at this point because giving birth in a hospital is safer in case of complications than giving birth on a remote island with an unqualified doctor.

batcabbage said...

Wow, I'm surprised about the 'not my fave episode' comments. I absolutely loved it! Sawyer deserved an episode like this, and he's gone back to his roots, the quintessential con man. So fantastic, I yelled out with joy when he used the old 'salvage vessel looking for the Black Rock' story. Also, I think (actually, I'm sure, because I'm watching the episode for the second time now, and rewound it to listen a third time) that Sawyer called Miles 'Enis', as in the limerick
'There once was a man named Enis,
Who had a very long...' well, I'm sure you know what the next word is. The point is, I don't think he meant to rhyme it with 'boss'. Certainly didn't sound like it to me, anyway. (Minor point, I know, but there you go).

Greatest scene this episode: the conversation between James and Richard. Oh my GOD. Loved it.

Loved this episode. Love this show so much. Loving this season! And kudos to the producers for not dragging it out over however many episodes they have this season (I think it's 17? Can anyone confirm that?) I would have hated to sit through an entire season of the O6 getting back on the island. Speaking of producers, just because I like to mention him at least once every post, YAY BRIAN K. VAUGHAN! For no other reason than because he's awesome. I'm really, very addicted to this show now, and my girlfriend Carolyn keeps demanding that I use the frozen donkey wheel to go forward a week and downlo- er, I mean, watch the next episode and DVR it. Heh. Speaking of which, Nikki, what do you mean by 'Next week: NOTHING!' Are they missing a week? Because I'm gonna cry, and my girlfriend will probably hit me, and then I'll cry more.

Excellent post, Nik, as always!

batcabbage said...

I've just gone and read your previous post, Nik. Damn! In my rush to read this episode's post, I missed it. I'm gonna get hit. No new Lost next week! At least there's the Office and BSG to look forward to....

Cabbie said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

When the alarm in the compound goes off and everyone is ushered into the house, Daniel runs in the other direction (he's not in the house with Juliet, Sawyer, Jin, and Miles). We don't see Daniel three years in the future, either. What happened to him??

Actually he is in the same house as Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Jin. He's right behind Miles.

As for where he is in the following three years - helping the DI build the Orchid of course :)

batcabbage said...

@Cabbie: Wow. I find it incredibly interesting that you bag the hell out of Lost (something that's quite out of the ordinary here - we love Lost), then provide a link to a site where we can watch an episode that you obviously think is crap. We've all watched the ep - that's why we come here to read what Nik (one of the foremost Lost afficionados on the planet) thinks, and then comment ourselves. Trying to drum up traffic for that site you linked much?

Ali Bags said...

@batcabbage - Cabbie left the exact same message on DocArtz - Spam alert

batcabbage said...

@Ali Bags - Ah, thanks for sharing that. What a tool. Knew there was something weird with that comment. Nice work, Ali!

Ali Bags said...

Totally off topic, but I've just had to register for something online and in the 'job position' drop-down chose 'other'. It made me giggle.

SonshineMusic said...

One thing that is bothering me...
If the O6 are returning on 316 in 200? then why do they land on the island in the 70's? If the island is no longer hopping through time, then shouldn't they land in the present, not the past? Or is there some kind of time warp as they approach the island? I know they have to land in the same time as the rest of the Losties show wise, but it seems a little weird to me.

Also, was the island always hopping through space? It would seem so, since we have the Lamppost station, which they used to find the island. Is that why the submarine only runs every couple of weeks? It seems like its almost too easy for the DI to get on and off the island if the island is hopping through space.

Another thought about whether the 815 crash happened in the future or at the same time... When the Others recruit Juliet Ethan is there and he looks pretty much the same age as he is when the Losties meet him. So either he traveled back in time, or at that point it was the same time both on and off the island.

So sometimes you land on the island at the same time that the outside world you came from is in, but sometimes you don't as evidenced by the O6 on 316.

I feel a brain aneurysm coming on :)

Ali Bags said...

@ SonshineMusic

Mrs Hawing did say that if they didn't get the conditions exactly right on flight 316 then the results would be 'unpredictable'

Jennifer said...

I'm a lot more new to Lost than anyone else here seems to be (although I've gone back and watched all the previous seasons). But doesn't it seem strange that Sawyer, Juliet, et al, don't seem the least bit concerned to find themselves permanently in 1974? Do they think it will get fixed once John Locke shows up?

Ali Bags said...

@ Jennifer

I think Sawyer is where he wants to be - he finally gets to be Sheriff, he has the love of a good woman and he had nothing to go back to anyway. Juliet is clearly fine now she has the new improved Sawyer (and who wouldn't be?) I am still puzzled about Miles and what exactly he's doing here - surely he's been 'speaking to dead people' all this time and must know a hell of a lot.

SonshineMusic said...

That's true. None of the ones left on the island have any reason to leave it in the 70's and noe have a really big impedus to try to change things or figure out how to go forward in time.

I do wonder, however, how things went from "you can stay for two weeks" to Sawyer being practically second in command. I mean, the Dharma guys at the beginning obviously feared the wrath of the great LaFleur :)

Nikki Stafford said...

I wake up and there are 75 comments. And here I thought because of my head start I'd actually be able to keep up with you guys this week! :) Some of you are commenting on this at 2:30 or 3 in the morning... and I feel like a total slacker. Hahaha...

I've been reading through the comments and have lots to say about some things. But first... I can't believe I missed the guyliner comment!! TWICE. Now I have to go back and rewatch that scene. I discovered the problem with a 7pm feed was that my daughter was still up and kept coming down the stairs, so I missed some things. Next time I'll just wait until later and then start watching. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

I removed the comment from Cabbie. Cabbie, if you're out there and want to repost what you said about not liking the episode, I encourage you to do so. We don't all have to drool over Lost (some of us just can't help it!) But I don't want any links to streaming sites on here. Most of them are illegal, and the reason I promote Lost so much is I want everyone to watch it. With networks providing legal streaming feeds, I'd rather people go there. But because this post has shown up in a few areas, it looked like spam to me.

Nikki Stafford said...

batcabbage: The Enos line is actually from Dukes of Hazzard, which is why I loved it so much. Miles calls Sawyer "Boss," like Boss Hogg, and Sawyer calls him Enos. Enos was Boss Hogg's deputy (he was the nervous guy who was always with Roscoe).

Yeah, when I was 9 there was only one place you could find me on Friday nights at 8. :)

Oh Bo Duke. You were my original Desmond.

Anonymous said...

I have a hard time believing that Sawyer wouldn't want to leave the island and see what kind of odds he could get on the Steelers winning 4 Superbowls in the next 6 years or something like that. Then find the young Bill Gates and offer to bankroll him. To me a guy like him would be much more likely to do that then hang around the island for three years waiting for Locke. I'm just saying...

-Tim

Ali Bags said...

Hi Nikki! I'm afraid I'm not so dedicated to Lost that I stay up until the small hours - I live in Hong Kong and it's evening here now. I won't mention how I get to watch Lost so soon after y'all- suffice to say it doesn't involve a big pendulum or a submarine (unfortuantely).

Nikki Stafford said...

I'm loving this idea, by the way, that some of the other passengers in Oceanic landed in another time. Could that be what draws them back to 2004, which is where they need to be?

Missing Georgia: Awesome rundown of the flower references. I meant to make a comment that the name LaFleur immediately made me think of the Orchid Station, which hasn't yet been built, but is an essential station to all of them, and is named after a flower.

Ali Bags: I just bought a Laura Ashley dress for my daughter on the weekend. Ah, the memories. Were you into Holly Hobbie, too? :)

ODM: And finally, if someone can make a "Jawyer" reference (?!?), I have just one word: Clater

You're right. Sawyer and Jack aren't working out for Kate so much, so maybe season 6 will see her looking in Claire's direction. :) But wait... that r on the end would insinuate Sawyer is also involved. Are you suggesting a Claire/Sawyer/Kate thing? Hm... ;)

Benny: Thanks for confirming the production notes having Ben born in 1963-4.

Someone mentioned that maybe Sawyer doesn't know that Ben is in the DI and assumes he's with the hostiles. Excellent point... but I just wondered if a young boy named Ben might trigger anything for them. The DI isn't very big, and Sawyer would have come into contact with him along the way. Sawyer found the Roger Workman skeleton and meeting a man walking around wearing that suit might have triggered a memory for him. That's why I'm wondering if they're not there yet?

Nikki Stafford said...

Mark RY: Great catch on the 1979 thing! I thought the same thing... but when they revealed the real date it just flew out of my brain like so many other bits of important information do these days. That definitely suggests that either Ben is lying (surprise) or the timeline is off. Could the timeline have shifted based on something that happened in the past during one of their jumps? Then again, the producers have said there is only one timeline, so maybe not.

Nikki Stafford said...

Everyone's asking where Sun and Lapidus are, and I'm wondering about Sayid. Where did HE go?

The thought of Rose and Bernard dying in the hail of flaming arrows that someone suggested made me very sad. I hope that didn't happen. Rose and Bernard deserve more as characters. I'm thinking they're still out there dealing with this insanity on their own.

Or... maybe they did get hit with the arrows and they crawled off into the caves together and died, becoming Adam and Eve. It would at least make their off-screen deaths significant. Hm.

Roland said...

Hey there, wow, 80 posts and its only 8:40 in the morning! Nikki you are outdoing yourself!

The challenge I find in being "late to the party" is that everyone in here is so brilliant and covers pretty well all the points I would ever think of bringing up and then some. So I can only provide my personal insights and none of them are too revealing!

So kudos to everyone here!

I was shocked that Lafleur meant Sawyer. Wow!

I know it was kind of neat to see Horace again, but I didn't really "get" his character. Amy on the other hand I found fascinating and who this baby is. I was trying to look at Paul's face to see if it was someone we knew but alas it was not...

I still don't buy Suliet or Jawyer but they did seem to have a little more chemistry. Such foreshadowing with Sawyer when he said 3 years is enough to get over someone. And yes, that last scene was sooooo soap opera dramatic!

Where is Sun? Where is Sayid? Stupid CTV always cuts off their previews as they change over to ABC. I only caught her holding the wedding ring and then something about killing Sayid and the O3 being interrogated by DI. Can someone fill me in please? I always thought Sun ended up in another time zone, which would complicate Jin/Sun reunion, but there is something not quite right about Sun being MIA.

LOVED the eyeliner comment Sawyer about Alpert, agree with you Ali Bags! Love the way Darlton always appreciates fan input!

I was intrigued by little girl Charlotte, are they going to pursue that with Faraday?

Now that they are essentially back on the island and everything has stopped, other than their survival from the DI and the others, it will be interesting to see where they are going to take this. Are they going to stay until the end in the 70s or are the flashes going to return them to present time?

If you were Juliet would you return to civilization knowing that it is 30+ years before your time? Can you imagine living in a world where you meet your parents when they were young and you met the younger version of yourself?

Thanks Nikki for the great recap as always!

Nikki Stafford said...

Blam: Paul was the Walrus, silly.
LOL!!! There's my morning laugh. :)

Do Sawyer and even Juliet know that Ben lived in the Dharma camp?

Ah, it was you who said that. Excellent point. Another thing I've often wondered... what were the flashbacks all about? Were they objective looks at the past of each of these characters, or were they the interpretation of past events through the eyes of those characters? In which case, is it possible that the flashback in Man Behind the Curtain was as reliable as anything else that comes out of Ben's mouth? What if that flashback was the world that Ben has projected to others, and wasn't actually true? From the beginning, the camera focuses on the eye of a character before going to the flashback, and a longstanding question I've had is, so is that the real past, or the past as remembered by that person?

Ali Bags said...

OMG Nikki! I've just remembered I had a Holly Hobby mirror AND Laura Ashley wallpaper.

I was such a GIRL.

And Starsky and Hutch was my Friday night viewing. I think Starsky was my first Sawyer.


BTW I think a creepy little Harry Potter look-alike called Ben might just ring some alarm bells for them. Lol.

Paticus said...

batcabbage- I think(and I could be wrong here) that the "Boss', "Enos" reference was to the Dukes Of Hazzard. Enos worked with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane. And "Enos" does rhyme with that other word from the limerick...:).
I have one question...How much of Ben's past has actually been verified? Don't we know most of what we know about Ben's past because of what he has told people ? And isn't he a liar who's pants should clearly be on fire ? I have not had a chance to go back and watch a lot of the older episodes, so i am sorry if there was some verification of Ben's stories that I'm missing.

theothers108 said...

I saw in the comments that someone thought that Karl might be the baby we saw being born tonight...

I'm thinking it's Ethan.

Ameila is the name of the older lady in the Mobisodes that Juliet hangs out with in the future... with all the time jumpings and such... could it be possible that Amelia is actually Amy?

Now, in the Season opener of season 3, Juliet has Amelia (Amy) over for her book club meeting and Ethan is working on her house... I think that Ethan is Amelia's son.

I realize that it might be a stretch... but if there's jumps in time that we don't know about yet, I think it's sound.

Also, Amelia wouldn't remember Juliet helping her because it hadn't happened yet, just like Danielle didn't know Jin until...

Paticus said...

oops. i see about 15 comments appeared since I started writing mine, and the great Nikki cleared up the Enos thing. Sorry about that.

Nikki Stafford said...

I just posted the trailer for the next episode (airing in 2 weeks). It's at the bottom of the blog post.

SonshineMusic said...

@ Nikki: a longstanding question I've had is, so is that the real past, or the past as remembered by that person?

That is a great thought and I don't know why I never considered it before. That would explain SOOOOO many of the plot "inconsistencies" that bother some of us so much.
Why do any of us ever take anything Ben says at face value? It's like you want to believe the character, but you know you can't, but your mind does anyway.

So if Ben's flashback was his reality, what if he didn't come onto the island with his dad? If the timing were different I would say maybe Amy's baby boy is Ben.

Ha, I just heard myself - if the timing were different - Hey, on Lost it could be right. Time is up in the air as far as I'm concerned

Nikki Stafford said...

theothers108: In 1977, I would say Amy is maybe 30? How old did you think she was? (I'm terrible at figuring out ages... if I worked at a carnival at the Guess Your Age booth, I'd be giving out stuffed animals all day long.) I think Amelia looks like she's in her early 70s, and that would be 30 years after the incidents here. So if Amy is actually about 35, and we could say Amelia is 65, you might be absolutely right!!

Interestingly I had Amelia on the brain because I was trying to figure out who she could be (when they're shepherded into that house with the angry-looking woman holding the gun, I thought that might be her) but I love this idea of Amelia being Amy!! :)

SonshineMusic said...

@theothers108: ETHAN!

Holy cow! Fantastic thought. I think it might work. I always liked Ethan (except with the whole stringing Charlie up to die). Don't ask me why, I just liked the character.

Ann said...

I enjoyed this episode very much. Loved the Sawyer (Jim or James) focus. I have an idea. Too bad Sawyer doesn't get on the sub and come to the USA. In 1977 I was just graduating high school. I was young, thin, and unmarried. We just might have hooked up!!! Sounds good to me. But my 18 year old daughter and hubby just rolled their eyes at me. And my hubby had to point out I was too nerdy for Sawyer! Oh well. I can dream.

I do think everyone from Sawyer to Locke to Sun are all in the same time for now. Not sure about how this will all work out and how they'll get back to 2009 but I can't wait to find out.

Gregg said...

Thanks for your site, Nikki - now I look forward to Thursday mornings as much as Wednesday nights!
I also wouldn't assume the dynamite is from the Black Rock. I doubt Horace would hold the unstable dynamite from the Black Rock in his teeth, as he did before he threw it.

Benny said...

@ARTAR: I thought about it this morning and, when we see the boats with the Ajira water bottles, we're at the camp. So this definitely happened post 2004-crash. So there is some evidence to suggest that the 316ers are in a different time than the 815ers.

@Mark/Nikki: perhaps because of 'the way' Charlotte leaves the island her mother claims she was born in 1979. Ben does get his info from Michael/official documents! So maybe SHE was lying about that! Or Ben know but he lied so Charlotte wouldn't know that he knows... get my drift? Good, 'cause I don't think I do.

@Blam: different times for different purposes? Interesting...

@Ali: re Job Application, HIGH-LARIOUS

@Sonshine: I think the island is moving through space, and once the DI found it, they were able to plot its movements, making it possible to come and go as you wish. As for Ethan, he recruited Juliet three years before we met him on the beach. Adults don't significantly change in that time.

@Nikki: indeed there is some points of adjustment with regards to Ben. I guess we'll have to wait and see if they are addressed. I doubt Gregg Nations would missed something so obvious.
From the "in two weeks" preview, we will see Sayid.
As for Rose and Bernard, I'm afraid I'm the one who made you sad (I'm sorry!). Although I certainly hope it is not what happened, I was merely hinting at the possibility!

@theothers108: Amelia eh? Ethan eh? Jin eh? ... I digress, good thought.

I had something of my own to say but forgot it! Thursday and already over 100 comments! Let's try for 200 by the next episode!

Anonymous said...

OK, so if you follow the "whatever happened happened" logic, then I'm assuming the ancients on the Island dug a well in the location where they found a rope sticking out of the ground. If you found a rope in the ground, wouldn't you want to find out what was on the other end? I would! When Locke fell into the underground cavern, I wondered what would cause the Islanders to pick such a crucial place to dig a well. Also, Charlottes body would have been left behind at the time of the statue. No? Am I over-analyzing?

I loved this episode. I think the season so far has been the best! Thanks for extending our viewing pleasure Nikki!

tanyam

Teebore said...

@Mark/Nikki: perhaps because of 'the way' Charlotte leaves the island her mother claims she was born in 1979.

I was thinking the same thing...if Charlotte is, I dunno, eight in 1977, and she and her mother leave the island in 1979, when she is ten, but leave in a similar manner to Ben/Locke and arrive ten years in their future (1989), they'd have to create documents saying she was born in 1979 to account for her age.

Of course, that seems unlikely since travel-to-and-from the island in the DI days seems to lack crazy time travel elements.

But perhaps something changed, briefly, in that regard, between 1977 and whenever young Charlotte leaves. Perhaps it somehow ties in with how the Oceanic Whatever and Sawyer and Company get out of the 70s?

Benny said...

@ Tanyam: That's exactly what I thought too about the rope. As for Charlotte, I think her body was indeed left in the time of the statue. As for what happens to it...

@Teebore: we see her in 74, maybe she left soon after, or as you mentioned, something odd played a role.



Also... did anyone think that the 'earthquake' that resulted from Locke turning the wheel is what destroyed the statue?

I was going to say that Sawyer (1977) looks a lot like a psychedelic/classic rock musician. The thought was going to be that he was part of the bank Geronimo Jackson and it was formed on the island. But Rosie (girl dancing with Jerry at the beginning) is wearing a GJ t-shirt.

Last note, I really liked the lighting on Dan. During the day they keep it in contrast, kind of in the shadows. But at night it is so emphasized and, especially at the table outside, we can barely see the lone half of his face. It really enlightens a different character in Dan (pun intended).

poggy said...

I'm kinda late to the party, am I? And I have to run, so I'm just dropping this - perhaps I'm seeing this through comic nerd goggles, but I believe Sawyer's choice of a creole name is a wink-wink-nudge-nudge moment to the character of Remy LeBeau, aka Gambit of the X-Men. (http://media.comicmix.com/media/2008/10/09/gambit-5.jpg) A bit like Sawyer, he's an ex thief and con man, and come think about it, the dynamics of his relationship with Rogue are very similar to Sawyer/Kate...

this said, if Juliet ends up getting the short end of the stick romance wise ONCE AGAIN I'm gonna throw a fit! I'm not sure I was entirely sold on Suliet, but come on, she deserves more luck with men! (although um, three years shcked up on an island with Sawyer... it's better than nothing!)

Julie Keen said...

Did we ever actually see Olivia ON the island? I'm wondering if Horace has a double life going on ... Olivia off island ... and Amy on.

Love the blog Nikki BTW!

Paticus said...

on a side note...from a Deadhead point of view, it was nice to see that the two Dharma guys at the beginning were named Jerry and Phil!

Deborah said...

When I posted last night before going to bed there were about 60 comments. Now there are over 100 which I do not have time to read at the moment. Someone may have posted this in the meantime - sorry if it is a repeat...

A few episodes ago we got to talking about Nestor Carbonell's (aka Richard Alpert) eye liner. Upon googling him, I found out that it is not eyeliner but the thinkness of his bottom lashes, something that he has been teased about and commented on since he was young. Here is the article if you care to read more:

http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2009/01/richard-alpert.html?&xid=rss-feed-lost-%27Lost%27%3A+Richard+Alpert+vs.+eyeliner

Benny said...

@Julie: she is the schoolteacher on the island.

Nashville Beatle said...

My theory on the giant statue is that the island is actually the lost city of Atlantis. Wow! That makes a lotta sense.

Hutch said...

I haven't read all the comments yet but my question is: The look on Richard's face was puzzlement when talking to Sawyer. Yet, according to the timeline, wouldn't he have already seen Locke born and talked to him as a young child. Therefore, he shouldn't have been so confused by the conversation.

Missing Georgia said...

I think it is possible that something happens to Amy that causes her death. Right before Sawyer intervenes with Amy and the Others, Daniel said what happens will happen, or something to that effect. Just because she didn't die at the hands of the Others at that point, doesn't mean that she will not die, because she was meant to die that day. Just a thought.

Missing Georgia said...

Hutch: I think Alpert may have been confused because he did not know there was anyone with Locke when they had the conversation about the compass and Locke told him about when he was going to be born. Sawyer and Juliet did not go into the clearing with Locke, so maybe Alpert is shocked that he knows about that conversation. He wouldn't have known that other people were moving in time with Locke.

Nikki Stafford said...

Julie: Welcome! We see Olivia on the island as a schoolteacher in the DI school. At one point the alarm goes off and they say the hostiles have gotten into the barracks, and she tells the children to hit the floor, so it's definitely a scene on the island. :)

Frank said...

Anonymous wrote:
OK, so if you follow the "whatever happened happened" logic, then I'm assuming the ancients on the Island dug a well in the location where they found a rope sticking out of the ground. If you found a rope in the ground, wouldn't you want to find out what was on the other end? I would! When Locke fell into the underground cavern, I wondered what would cause the Islanders to pick such a crucial place to dig a well. Also, Charlottes body would have been left behind at the time of the statue. No? Am I over-analyzing?

I think you hit the nail on the head here... what came first the chicken or the egg!? All these events that happened in the past happened and they cannot be changed.

I loved the episode as a great set up for the remainder of the season. So many open questions and theories out there right now, you could drive yourself crazy!!

My thoughts:
a) charlotte's year of birth being 1979 - i think this was fabricated by her mother when they leave the island to help hide their identity?
b) where is little ben? i think he will be showing up soon, if he is not already there.
c) i like sawyer & juliet together - sorry for non-shippers! :)
d) who is the baby boy!? it has to be someone important to the history of the show
e) where/when are sun & sayid? if sun isn't in the same timeline, they are going to have to really explain why - because that makes no sense to me except to draw out the jin/sun reunion.
f) lafleur = awesome... just amazing how james infiltrated and became head of security for the DI in less than 3 years
g) i was actually sad for sawyer when he gets to see jack, kate & hurley... he actually looked happy in his life with juliet and this is going to flip his whole world upsidedown again

many many more... but again, great episode!

Julie Keen said...

@Benny ~ Thanks, did not remember that. Well, then if Olivia was with Horace when he met Ben's dad, the day Ben was born ... and Olivia was on the island when Ben arrived about 10 years later ... but the Amy stuff happens in between the two events ... well, that just makes no sense, unless they either weren't married to each other in the earlier episode or they are divorced in the later episode.

Julie Keen said...

Thanks for the welcome Nikki! I'm a long time lurker.

Frank said...

Missing Georgia: I think it is possible that something happens to Amy that causes her death. Right before Sawyer intervenes with Amy and the Others, Daniel said what happens will happen, or something to that effect. Just because she didn't die at the hands of the Others at that point, doesn't mean that she will not die, because she was meant to die that day. Just a thought.

I think the point is that Sawyer & Juliet have ALWAYS intervened in that situation with Amy. The future in 2004 = the past in 1974, you can't alter it in any way.

Missing Georgia said...

Frank: Good catch about the Sawyer/Juliet intervention. I hadn't thought about it in that way.

Eric said...

@Frank

What if Sawyer and Juliet hadn't always intervened, but if their intervention was a bit like Desmond saving Charlie? It changes how she will die, not that she will die ... this could also explain the fact that Horace was with Olivia in earlier episodes. Fate will course correct and Amy will end up dead. If it is important that Horace end up with Olivia, fate will course correct that as well.

Or, alternatively, Dan was wrong and you can change the past, and Horace's relationship status is our clue that this is the case. I'm not sure which I believe yet.

Julie Keen said...

Oh, and what if Olivia is Horace's SISTER and not his wife? I just assumed they were married but I can't remember anywhere if she is actually introduced as his wife.

Nashville Beatle said...

I think the island is more ancient than the egyptians. LOST = Lost city of Atlantis. Cool, it's been right in front of us.

From Plato: From Plato: ” the whole sky turned the colour of dry blood, and a mass of black clouds swept across it with such a dreadful sound as had never been heard before. The seas rose in gigantic waves which swallowed the entire fleet, while the whole world reverberated with earthquakes and the ocean roared and rushed from one sea to another like water swilling around in an immense bowl. For days on end it seemed the whole Cosmos would fly apart. The skies deluged the earth with water, the mountains shuddered and cracked apart, the oceans were a torment of monstrous waves.
When at last the seas became calm again a few battered ships crept into port. They brought the news that Atlantis had disappeared, and that the Atlantic Ocean rolled over the place where this magnificent empire once flourished in all its glory.”


The Beat Down

Nikki Stafford said...

Paticus: on a side note...from a Deadhead point of view, it was nice to see that the two Dharma guys at the beginning were named Jerry and Phil!

LOL! I didn't even notice that... that is awesome. :)

Nashville Beatle: Atlantis is one of the earliest fan theories from back in season 1, and people have gone so far away from it it seems to have been forgotten. But I think it's a very real possibility. :)

Hutch: I think the look on Richard's face was, "Who the hell are you and how do you know about my meeting with John Locke?" I think he remembers the meeting, but can't believe Sawyer knows about it.

LotteryTicket said...

IF we suggest that Amy is Amelia and her son is Ethan, then they would be Other infiltrators to DI because they survive the purge and join Alpert/Ben.

Wouldn't Juliet's delivery of baby change the past? Are we to assume that Amy would have delivered her baby and lived without Juliet?

If Alpert is looking for justice for 2 men being shot, then why one take one body?

Sawyer suggestion of Black Rock to Horace may have prompted a scouting party. We have two instances of ships trying to find the island that are full of explosives. I don't think Bland Rock an accidental stranding. Who blows up trees for fun? Horace has a death wish. Or DI has some serious mind altering drugs (Horace doesn't drink).

Nik, I agree with the 'recall' theory as to why we have discrepancies in storyline. I supposed that it was Smokey replay after examination of people who arrive on island. Some future entity try to understand events. But that was too sci-fi even for me. So that would leave the Hanso/Middleworks medical ship theme to play out.

Nikki Stafford said...

Frank: Good points all around. And it brings me to a question I meant to throw out to y'all.

The rope that Sawyer is holding when they bloop back in time: Was the rope always sticking out of the ground like that? Or was it there only because he was holding onto it? Notice when they bloop, all guns/clothes/accessories bloop with them. If it's on their person, it comes along. So I wonder if the rope was maybe never there in the first place, but was only there because Sawyer was still holding onto it when the time jump happened?

Jazzygirl said...

Roland, I feel the same way. :( By the time I get on here, everyone has already brought up the "good stuff" and I feel I don't have much to contribute.
Couple that with the fact that my DVR somehow became possessed and CANCELLED recording this week's episode!! We were out until about 9:15pm last night and I strolled into the house, thinking how great it would be to be able to forward through some commercials yet still end at 10pm. I sit down and NO red light on the DVR...NOT RECORDING! Can you imagine my scream? I quickly hit Record and watched from about 18 minutes into it. Now, DVR's have some weird thing I notice where if you hit record and you're close to the beginning, it actually records pretty much the whole thing. I can't really figure it out but I am THANKFUL! However it only went back to 9:08. (God, it's like LOST!!) So, this morning I had to find it on YouTube (couldn't get the ABC one to work) and got to see what I missed. I didn't think I missed much until I read Nikki's comments about the statue. I went and watched the first 10 minutes, and NOW I'm caught up. AND I've read all 100 posts! Phew! Good thing I stayed home from work today! :)
I only really have one thing to address that's been brought up about timelines with the 815 crash. I thought we pretty much agreed that the island had that bubble around it that kept it locked in one "time", like 1996. That's why Locke could walk again and Rose's cancer is gone...becuase it's BEFORE they got their ailments. Now the island is "unstuck" in time. The record stopped skipping in the 1970's and they move forward in "time" at the same time as now, 2009.
God, this time travel stuff really kills me and it's frustrating on some levels!!
Oh, did anyone else think Sawyer looked SKINNY? I did notice the straightened hair but he looked so beanpole-ish to me!! Still hot though. :)
And yes, the scene at the end was over-dramatic but I LOVED IT!!! And yes, Hurley would run up to Sawyer and hug and that's exactly what he does in the next episode. At least I can watch the whole thing next week if I want! I wonder why though? I notice a lot of shows have taken a hiatus over the past 2 weeks.

Frank said...

@Eric

I get what you're saying, it's a hard concept to wrap your head around really. I know Sawyer, Juliet and the rest of the folks all arrived in the future, but the way the show is trending - I think they've always been part of the island history, just like the rope in the ground leading to the well being dug, etc... etc... - the rope would never have led to the well being built had Sawyer not been holding onto it for dear life trying to save John.

As for your second point - it could definitely be a clue - that's why this show is SO damn awesome!!

Check this point out... what if Horace in his monologue regarding forgetting someone was actually referring to himself & Olivia and not Amy & Paul?

myselfixion said...

Does everyone here know that if you hold down the alt key and type Hurley's numbers that upon releasing the alt key, the character µ will show up? MU, the lost continent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(lost_continent)

Also....

Horace = Horus. Hasn't that been suggested before? I think it fits in well with Nikki's idea about the Statue being Set.

My first thought about Charlotte not jumping with them is that she had decomposed and no longer existed. They jumped a few thousnad years, I would presume, to the same spot on the island. The statue was gone as well.

Upon watching the enhanced re-run preceeding this episode, I noticed it was edited and the part when Locke tells Widmore that Ben left the island before him was omitted.

Nashville Beatle said...

Nashville Beatle: Atlantis is one of the earliest fan theories from back in season 1, and people have gone so far away from it it seems to have been forgotten. But I think it's a very real possibility. :)

The statue and the earthquake nailed it for me. Atlantis, by some accounts has been theoried to have been a very advanced civilization. Did Darlton shoot this down? I know they have on some speculation like aliens.

LotteryTicket said...

rope appears in ancient island time sticking out of ground. it leads to future location of DW. original inhabitants find and dig well. we can assume they find water as there is a bucket.

Maybe the water is unusual as it is approximate to electromagnetic rock (hot).

Well is abandoned or runs dry and is filled in prior to 1974.

Rediscovery of well by DI during Cheng's time (1980)

Who knows about the well - Charlotte, Sawyer, Locke, Miles, Juliet, Jin.

Was Charlotte revived in ancient times and gave Locke the message he needed in the future?

Nikki Stafford said...

LotteryTicket: Wouldn't Juliet's delivery of baby change the past? Are we to assume that Amy would have delivered her baby and lived without Juliet?

I don't think so, actually. Right now women can't carry past the second trimester, or about 24 weeks. Amy was at 38 weeks, so clearly whatever made these women have pregnancy problems happened after all of this. And the fact that Richard Alpert recruited Juliet, and not a member of the DI, makes me think the DI didn't have a problem with it, it was just the Others.

Maybe it's not an island thing at all, but being an Other? If some of these people are hundreds of years old, maybe they can't conceive for obvious reasons.

Nikki Stafford said...

myselfixion: I've never tried the keyboard trick before! :)

Horace = Horus. Hasn't that been suggested before? I think it fits in well with Nikki's idea about the Statue being Set.

I wrote up something about it in my season 3 book to go along with the Man Behind the Curtain episode, I think. I'm sure it's been discussed much more on the Fuselage and other places since then.

Jazzygirl said...

Nikki, I think the rope was there because Sawyer was holding onto it. Although perhaps you're suggesting that the well was built BECAUSE the rope was there? Hmmmm.
I need to re-watch the ep since I could't really focus since I had missed the first 10 minutes and was preoccupied at the time with what I missed.
I also need to re-watch Curtain since you keep making references to it and I can't remember a lot.
Did anyone else think the dynamite blowing up the trees looked EXACTLY like when Smokey blows up trees? It was the first thing I thought of. Also, the question about the dynamite and the Black Rock. Hard call if Horace was lying. However Sawyer said he was out by the Flame, throwing dynamite. Remember the Flame had lots of it in the basement.

Nikki Stafford said...

Jazzygirl: Couple that with the fact that my DVR somehow became possessed and CANCELLED recording this week's episode!!

ACK! I've had my share of PVR troubles and I know the pain. SO awful. Are you in Canada? I think CTV streams it right after the episode has aired (and in the US, it's on ABC). I'm glad you were able to see it!

Benny said...

@myselfixion: it also works if you omit 4 and 8
Alt + 15162342

Nikki Stafford said...

Roland: I was intrigued by little girl Charlotte, are they going to pursue that with Faraday?

I think this is a big point I'd like to discuss. Daniel disappeared when the alarm went off, and he didn't appear in the 1977 Dharma camp. We know he'll be underground when the Orchid is built and he hides his face from Chang, as if he doesn't want anyone to know he's there. From the video shown at Comic-Con last July, we know he'll hook up with Chang at some point and record that message of warning. We also know he'll appear as a crazy person to Charlotte and try to warn her away. The question is, what will he do in the meantime?

LotteryTicket said...

Nik, I was thinking that the baby was breach and that would/maybe create a scenario where either mother or child or both would die. In steps future Juliet to change that outcome. This scene may have just been written to give Juliet's character a reason to stop fixing Dharma vans and to say that child can be born on this island cir. 1974.

Anonymous said...

Something just dawned on me...Sayer saved AMy fomr being killed in this timeline, so her baby that was born may not have ever been born in the "other" time line. Maybe it is indeed Jacob, hence this why he was "invisible" or in another dimension because somehting had to change in the past for him to be born.

LotteryTicket said...

Stars won't come out if they know that you're about .. .

Candida, Tony Orlando and Dawn

the monitoring station with Jeff, Phil and Rosie is the Flame. All of the monitors are on. Can anyone see what is happening in the other stations?

LotteryTicket said...

"A situation out at the pylons"

? this is where Horace is blowing up trees.

LotteryTicket said...

Thinking of the connection between Horace, Locke and dynamite at the pier/sub.

Don Edwards said...

I called the Juliette/Sawyer thing about two blogs back!!! HAHAHAHAHA!! ANNNNNNNNNNNND.....I'm willing to bet anybody 2 things....

1. If Richard Alpert pulled off his shoe, he'd have 4 toes.

2. The island is Atlantis.

C'mon, people!!! Give it up for ya boy!!

ChrisTemple said...

Nikki I think you need to make a correction in this blog. I just rewatched LaFleur and Daniel IS in the room with everyone else when the alarm sounds and Richard shows up. I just thought you should know.

Teebore said...

the monitoring station with Jeff, Phil and Rosie is the Flame.

Were they in the Flame? I thought they were in the Pearl, the observation station with an entrance near the Beechcraft plane wreck. But I could be wrong. Frankly, I need to go back and brush up on my stations, because they're all starting to blur, especially those early ones.

As for Nikki's question about what Daniel is up to in the intervening years, perhaps he continues his studies and comes to the conclusion that he was wrong, that the past CAN be changed, which is what motivates him to make the video with Chang and warn young Charlotte after all.

And then we discover, no, he was RIGHT all along, the past CAN'T be changed, but he had to think it could be in order to motivate himself to warn Charlotte, because he always did warn her.

Nashville Beatle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nashville Beatle said...

Last season Ben said Charlotte was born in 1979. So is this a continuity mistake or did her birth certificate get falsified when she got off the island.

humanebean said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
pete said...

Nikki, I liked you brief lesson on Egyptian mythology. This is obvious (and someone may have already mentioned it in the 146 posts to date), but there's a fun verbal connection between Horace and Horus. I also like Miles Strom = maelstrom. And I really like LOST this year - best season since #2.

humanebean said...

Nikki,

I felt the episode had some awkward moments but had even more deeply satisfying ones. The statue! That ALONE was worth the price of admission. Lots of great comments today (and lots OF 'em!) ... I'll try to focus on some things that haven't been thoroughly discussed as yet.

And so it goes ... some things that jumped out at me:
1) I realize that the episode opened with some re-views of scenes we've already seen, but ... didn't those frames of Locke at the wheel look different somehow? No Christian, of course, and no "Who's your son?" ... it was almost as if this was another version of events.

2) Looks like Rosie and Phil were groovin' with some Dharma Beer 'n brownies. Yum.

3) Sawyer refers to Horace as our "Fearless Leader". (I immediately thought of Boris Badenov on 'Rocky and Bullwinkle') He's LEADING the Dharma Initiative? Some of the things he says are interestingly ambiguous - when asked whether he's heard of the Black Rock, he quickly responds, "Can't say that I have". Can't? Or, won't? And, he tells Sawyer, "you're not Dharma material". Oh, really? Wanna bet?

4) A grief-stricken Daniel says that Charlotte "moved on ... and we stayed". Interesting choice of words. If it is true that her body remained behind in the Island's distant past, I imagine that the discovery of her body by its inhabitants might have created quite a stir. Daniel also says, "... we're here for good". Double meaning there, perhaps?

5) The return of the Rec Room! And, BOY is it pimped out! Pool table, dart board, pinball machine ... where's the ping-pong table? Funny that this always seems to be the place they bring fresh captives. Also, I noticed our familiar eight-pointed star shape showing up in the background on the side of the pinball machine.

6) Richard notes that the "fence may keep other things out ... but not us". Smokey? What else does it keep out? I was struck by the fact that Horace greets him as "Mr. Alpert" but Sawyer gets to call him "Richard".

7) Sawyer tries to convince Juliet to stay for two weeks, saying "with any luck Locke will be back by then" ... as they sit in front of the submarine that Locke will ultimately blow up the night before it is supposed to carry her and Jack off the Island.

8) That looks like an older man's hand we see moving the dark pieces on the chessboard. Perhaps it's just the camera angle ... but he appears to be playing by himself.

9) We catch a brief glimpse of a man riding one of the bicycles (he even rings the little bell) ... just as we did in one of the spliced orientation film pieces.

10) Horace shows us yet another prospective father who turns to the bottle to deal with the pressure. And ... I remember the C4 at the Flame Station ... was there dynamite there as well? I don't recall.

*bonus* We've seen Richard come off-Island to 'recruit' Juliet just as we saw him contact Locke ... because he KNOWS they will be on-Island later. He, too, is someone who "gets people where they need to be".

To Nikki's point: Daniel explained that his notebook contains "everything (he) ever learned about the Dharma Initiative". I'll think we'll see that he spent these three years filling that notebook with info. This might also explain how his time sketches wound up in the files at the Hydra station for Caesar to discover.

Great comments everyone!! It'll be a long two weeks, for certain...

Anonymous said...

I think that the thing we saw in Jack's bedroom was a 3 disc cd player with the clear glass face. I rewatched the episode and those were definitely CDs, not reels.

Benny said...

@Teebore: it's likely the Flame (or previously unknown) since the monitoring area is definitely larger than for the Pearl. You can dance and there are no seats. As well, LaFleur mentions that Horace was found near the Flame.
The only thing that gets me is that Phil and Jerry are wearing 'security' uniforms instead of 'flame' uniforms' like Mikhail.


As for Daniel, I believe that since 1974, he's realized he needs to figure our something with regards to time travel to be able to return to the original timeline, or get to the right song.
Or he's trying to play with the rules of time, perhaps in order to change it as you mentioned.


@humanebean:
1) I think they just used different shots to show remind us what hapened.

We don't know that Richard is aware of Juliet's presence within the DI. He knows of Sawyer, but it's the only one he talks to that we are aware of. Although I see the possibility that, given Juliet's successful delivery on-island he learns of it and that's what make him recruit her.

Here a question to you: How can Daniel fill a notebook full about everything he's learned about the DI before he even lands in the 70s to infiltrate the group?
Could he have been in contact with his other self later on perhaps?

Roland said...

Jazzygirl, that is so true...
I feel like we are all trying to impress Nikki, the Lost "mothership" with things that we noticed and I'm not the brightest tool in the shed when it comes to noticing little things on the show! By the time I check in, I try to read all the posts and there is everything there I have thought of and more! Sigh...I guess I'll have to go to the back of the classroom to do remedial work LOL Talk about flashback, high school style! LOL

redeem147 said...

Manditory Sayid post:

Since Sayid can't go five minutes without falling in love, and Kate's not seeing anyone...

Roland said...

re: my post above...should read "sharpest tool in the shed"...duh...my point proven LOL

Hutch said...

I know there has already been a lot of discussion about the statue but IMO one of the brillant things about LOST is how they will plant a seed (the 4 toe foot) in a previous season. Then, in the middle of this season, they show about 10 seconds of the back of a full size statue and EVERYONE instantly recognizes it. No other show makes you think and remember like LOST.

I literally jumped out of my chair when the statue flashed on the screen (and I'm a semi-old guy.)

Hisham said...

I haven't read all the replies because they are too many and (time) is too short. But I think that if we piece together the events from "Curtain" and "LaFleur," we will find that Horace and Olivia were off the Island in late sixties, and then they became friends with Roger. A few years later Roger was recruited by the DI, and he offered Roger a job. Something must have happened to Olivia (maybe she died in another attack by the Hostiles, which means that the truce came later on). Meanwhile Charlotte was Born on the Island (it's obvious that Ben is older than Charlotte; he's in his 40s and Charlotte can't be over 35 whatsoever). Makes sense?
But there seems to be some continuity error, if it in fact isn't another timeline, because in "Confirmed Dead," Ben had said that Charlotte was born in 1979. Which means that the little girl Dan saw wasn't in fact Charlotte, and that he was still emotionally overwhelmed by her death that any red-haired girl in his eyes could be Charlotte.

SonshineMusic said...

I thought it was odd when Richard said "it can't keep us out."

I started pondering, who is "us"? Obviously we all know that Richard is different and Jacob is different and Christian is different. Is there a bigger group of "us" that are orchestrating things? Are these the dead, but not dead people like Christian, etc? Or is there even something else going on. love Lost!

SonshineMusic said...

Re: all the talk about Amy and Horace, etc...

If Amy was supposed to die, but Juliet and Sawyer save her, there is an awful long time before any kind of "course correction" takes place - 3 years! With Charlie it all happened within days, right?

Also, if there was supposed to be a course correction, then she should have died in childbirth because the baby should never be born, because that most definitely WILL change things. Of course, you could argue that Juliet and Sawyer again change things and save her when she should have died. There may still be a further course correction, but I would think it would have to include the child since, technically, it should never have existed.

And I've managed to bring myself right back to the beginning :P

Hisham said...

Re: Rose and Bernard.
In "Jughead," Cunningham said to Sawyer and his group that the rest of the Left Behinders were either killed or captured. Perhaps Rose and Bernard were among those who were captured, and maybe "recruited" by the Hostiles? Are they going to become Others?

edgeshat said...

According to Lostpedia, the assumption that Olivia was related to or married to Horace was made by ABC's Lost website b/c they said her last name was Goodspeed. But yes, in the episode Man Behind The Curtain there was never any real mention that they are married, so most likely they were brother/sister.

I don't think Sawyer or Juliet's action changed anything in time. The show isn't going into alternate realities like Donnie Darko. It's more like 12 Monkeys, where someone from the future goes into the past to initiate the events that lead to that future. "whatever happened, happened". If this show brings in alternate realities and past/futures that never really happened b/c someone changed something it could be seen as negating all the events that we've seen on the show. I'd rather everything we've seen to remain canon, as part of one reality.

So it seems like Horace represents Dharma, as he's the one going out to talk to Richard. Where's Pierre Chang in all this?

I'm so curious about the door that leads to the Monster. The DI protected themselves from the Monster using the sonar fence. Yet there's a door hidden behind another door in Ben's house that we assume leads somewhere to summon it. I just wonder who lived in that house before Ben. Or was it Ben and Roger's house all along?

Brian Douglas said...

Could Olvia be Charlotte's mother? She left with Charlotte, and Horace then hooked up with Amy.

Perhaps Horace wasn't Charlotte's father, and that's why he was so upset about the necklace--because his ex-wife was cheating on him!

Also, could the baby be Sawyer himself? We don't know much about Sawyer's parents. Perhaps Amy left the island with baby Sawyer, got re-married again, and then Anthony Cooper comes along, cons Sawyer's step-father, murder/suicide etc.

Also, I don't think Amy was supposed to die...I think Sawyer et al. were supposed to go back and save her.

Interesting that we don't see what happens to Paul. Could he have been an Other spy, and Amy found out and shot him? That might be why Richard wanted the body.

And the statue...I was so like OMG, OMG, OMG...ah, crap.

Btw, what Daniel's comment about Charlotte moving on while they stayed? Could her body still be flashing through time?

Jazzygirl said...

I actually thought they were in the Pearl station too, not the Flame. It doesn't really matter that they said Horace was near the Flame b/c the security cameras were everywhere it seems. In fact, if they were in the FLame, then he would have been right outside and they could have dealt with him first, before getting Sawyer, no? This probably doesn't mean much in the scope of everything else that's happened but someone mentioned it so I thought I'd say something.
Oh, and Roland, I actually READ your comment as "sharpest" even though it said brightest. LOL!

Jazzygirl said...

oh yeah, Nikki...I'm in MA...YOU sent me the books! LMAO!! I know, I'm just one of many fans/readers. ~ Audrey ;-p

SonshineMusic said...

Re: Charlotte's body.

Actually, my first instinct when Daniel said, "She's gone." Was, oh my goodness. She's not really dead. She's like Claire or Christian, or something!"

humanebean said...

@Benny,
This one has so many loops as to stagger the imagination. When we first heard Daniel say that his notebook was filled with Dharma intel, we assumed that his university studies in consciousness-shifting had somehow led him to Dharma lore. Yet WHEN could he have filled that notebook?

His visit from Desmond took place in 1996, when his experiments were still in their infancy. When we next see him, he is an invalid of sorts in Essex MA, tended to by a caretaker as he watches news reports of the Flight 815 wreckage discovery in 2004. In between, some experiment involving Theresa Spencer has gone terribly awry and he has 'fled to the States'.

Given the memory issues we see him exhibit when first on-Island, and the disparaging way Keamy refers to his behavior aboard the freighter, it's reasonable to assume that Faraday has been mentally impaired as a result of his experiments. And yet once the time jumps have started and he shows the notebook to Sawyer and the others, he says: "I've spent my entire adult life studying space-time. I know all this because this journal contains everything I've ever learned about the DHARMA Initiative. This is why I'm here."

My theory is that he gathered his Dharma intel during the 70's, somehow arranged for his notebook to make it off-Island and delivered to him in the early 90's and then continued his (Widmore funded) research until his health declined. Thoughts?

Benny said...

@humanebean: That's good. I think it might be the more sensible/possible option. It might be this notebook that led him to pursue his research in time travel and such.

If we want to believe his research on DHARMA came from himself (without his own help...), then perhaps under the tutelage of Widmore he was nudged to check out DHARMA and found out they were doing more than just the standard animal/psychological/etc. research that they claimed.

But let's consider this. If Daniel has his notebook in the 70s, why did he write it in the first place?
It's all so intricate and well detailed that it's fun to not know!

Roger said...

@SBK
I think Amy's baby is Ethan. He appears to be in the right age. I have racked my brain of all other important people, and Ethan seems to be the only one left. Desmond could be, but it doesn't explain the accent at all. It would also be a great connection Horace and Ethan.

What does everyone think about Horace's Cabin. We have seen in a previous episode when Locke flashed back when Horace was chopping down trees and preparing to build the cabin, which later turned out to be Jacob's cabin. I know this seems insignificant when looking at the meaning of the cabin, but how could Horace build the cabin. It is clear from the interactions between Alpert and Horace that their is a near war between them, especially since the defense systems need to be turned on to keep Alperts people out. So why would Horace risk going out in to the insurgents area to build a cabin that he would never be able to use. It shows a deeper connection that will be bonded between "Jacob"/the island and Horace; much more than the simple DHARMA initiative.

batcabbage said...

167 comments! Holy crud, that's fantastic! Awesome discussion on this ep, guys.

@Nikki: Oh, man! I can't believe I forgot about the Dukes! Now my geek cred is tarnished! Sorry, Nik, shouldn't have doubted you. I need to get my ears checked.

@Benny: 'But let's consider this. If Daniel has his notebook in the 70s, why did he write it in the first place?'

Well, and this is going out on a limb, we know that he's had memory problems (from the card game thing with Charlotte back in S4), so maybe he writes it back in the seventies, somehow passes it on to his future self (who will need it for when he's on the Kahuna and 'originally' comes to the island), and it exists in a time loop, kind of like the compass that Richard gives to Locke gives to Richard gives to Locke gives to.... and so forth. I dunno. Just a theory.

Also, 'It's all so intricate and well detailed that it's fun to not know!' That's EXACTLY how I feel about this show. So, so fun.

Benny said...

@batcabbage: so if the notebook exists in a timeloop, does this mean that no one actually wrote it? If that is the case, it makes for an interesting plotline, especially regarding the note about Desmond being Dan's constant.

Anonymous said...

"You're right. Sawyer and Jack aren't working out for Kate so much, so maybe season 6 will see her looking in Claire's direction. :) But wait... that r on the end would insinuate Sawyer is also involved. Are you suggesting a Claire/Sawyer/Kate thing? Hm... ;)"

Oh, no, if Kate's going to go lesbian with anyone it has to be Juliet.

Think about it, those two have had such bad luck with men, maybe that's a sign that they should try their luck with the ladies!

Though another poster's suggestion of a little Kate/Sayid is intriguing...hmm...

Roland said...

When I saw Horace blowing trees up, my first thought was that this action looked and sounded exactly like the “tree-exploder” aspect of Smokey. Did Future Smokey incorporate Exploding Trees into its repertoire because of Horace’s actions that night? Does Smokey dislike members of the DI (including Juliet in “Left Behind”) because of Horace’s tree-destruction? Is Smokey a relative of Tolkien’s Ents?

Jason said...

Time to go with the crazy kids - who here thinks that the reason that Horace and Richard's truce includes something like what Ben offered the Losties at one point?

... you stay on your part of the island and we'll stay on ours...

What if that 'part of the island' is where the Black Rock is located? What do we know about the Black Rock? Well, it's English. It was a slave ship (wasn't it?). What if that ship was on its way back from Africa while the island was 'moving' and got caught up in its radius (like Jin)? What if that slave ship was not only bringing slaves back from Africa, but was also bringing back a sarcophagus containing - duh duh duh... Richard - pharaoh of a past Egyptian civilization who was resurrected some how and was able to take some of the English survivors and convince them to follow him (like a god) and build tributes to him - and he's pretty high and mighty - until his head is spun from the time traveling John Locke...

Don't forget kids - I am also the one that has been claiming that the Losties are their own desendants... There's more time travel to happen - to be sure!

Roland said...

I believe that Rose, Bernard, the surviving Red Shirts and Sayid are all in the custody of Family Richard.

Note that it is Richard, and not Charles Widmore who represents “The Hostiles”. It may be that 1974 Charles Widmore (aged 37) has not yet seized control of “his people”. OR ... he is in Military Control but sends Richard as his ambassador. The brutality of the two dead Hostiles hints at the brutality of their Commander.

Ali Bags said...

Things I lay awake thinking about last night:

1. Exactly when was Daniel helping build the Orchid?
We have all presumed that Dr Chang's baby is Miles. So is the baby around between 1974 and 1977 at the same time as the adult Miles? Is this possible? Maybe the baby isn't Miles.

2. When the young Ben encountered Richard in the woods he was all long haired and unkempt. In 1974 he appears all short haired and sexy. Did something happen to the Others in between?

lvgirl said...

Ok, I've read all the comments and one of the ones I way don't agree with is that Ethan is the child born in 1977. The actor that plays Ethan is my age- 43 he'll be 44 in april. If he was born in 1977, he'd be 24 in 2001 when we see him recruiting Juliet. I didn't think the island made people look older.

Ali Bags said...

@myself 'When the young Ben encountered Richard in the woods he was all long haired and unkempt. In 1974 he appears all short haired and sexy. Did something happen to the Others in between?'

I've just been thinking about this one and maybe this is an example of how Ben's 'flashback' was actually all lies, a figment of his imagination. In his little fabrication, this is how he wanted to portray Richard, as some forest dwelling roughian? And i've started to consider that Amy's baby might be Ben.

The thing is with all the time travelling confusion, Amy's baby could be anyone of any age.I suspect the writers are playing w ith us.

Eric said...

@Nikki

After reading your post over at DocArzt's, and given that I gave you the big Wow of disagreement over how good this episode was or wasn't, I just want to say that I meant it in a good way! As in, you may not have liked it, I did, here's why, and that's cool, Lost has something for all of us. Anyway, I've really appreciated the discussion on this episode, thanks to you and to all the commenters ...

Grimalkin said...

Combining two topics that have been discussed already... it it possible that the 316ers- notably Locke and Ben- landed in a different time because Locke and Ben hadn't experienced three years as the others (Oceanic # and those left on the Island) had? Just a thought.

Brian Douglas said...

Re: The Baby

My mom had an interesting suggestion: that the baby was Charlie. True, this isn't conistant with what we know about his family, but he could always have been adopted.

Re: Daniel's Notebook

I think Daniel experienced time flashes like Desmond and was flashing to his time in the past (but his future) when he was working for DHARMA. When he flashed back to the proper time, he wrote down whatever he could remember about DHARMA in the notebook.

Nikki Stafford said...

Eric: Oh, my dear, don't worry, you certainly weren't the only one to disagree with me! :) And I loved your comments, as always. You always come right out of the gate and have lots of good stuff to say, so honestly, honestly, nothing was directed at you! :)

Ali Bags said...

Re: Charlotte being born in 1979

Just because Daniel saw a red headed little girl and said 'Charlotte' doesn't mean it actually WAS Charlotte. I reckon it was a red herring (pun intended ha ha)

Ali Bags said...

@NashvilleBeatle
'I think the island is more ancient than the egyptians. LOST = Lost city of Atlantis. Cool, it's been right in front of us.

From Plato: From Plato: ” the whole sky turned the colour of dry blood....etc'

Just been reading up on this Atlantis theory at Lostpedia and it makes a lot of sense.

It is also interesting that 'Plato' was one of the nicknames used by Sawyer this episode.

But why the Egyptian references?

Nikki Stafford said...

BrianD: Great observation from your mom! I really like it. :)

AliBags: You're absolutely right. We're all going along with it, but maybe in his sorrow he just WANTS to find her... doesn't mean it's her.

If only Amy's baby had been a girl, then I'd be convinced THAT was Charlotte.

Ali Bags said...

Oh dear, Nikki - you'll set them all off on a sex change theory now.

Nikki Stafford said...

@Ali Bags: LOL!!! Oh great... I can just see it now, boards lighting up debunking Nikki Stafford's Tranny Theory on Lost. ;)

Anonymous said...

Enenra MacCutcheon said. . .

When I was watching Amy go into labor, I was speculating about who her baby could be and said out loud, "Who has brown curly hair?"
My husband answered, "Hurley." At first I thought this was a ridiculous answer, but then I started to think about it.

Amy's baby would be 27 when flight 815 crashes. That seems about right for Hurley's age at the time of the crash. I know we've seen Mrs. Reyes and she's not Amy. But what if Hurley was adopted? There are many characters on the show who were raised or partially raised by someone other than their biological parents. Walt is now being taken care of by his grandmother. Kate is raising Aaron. Jin was raised by someone who may or may not be his biological father. Someone raised Sawyer after his mother and father died. Ben raised Alex.

If Amy's baby is Hurley, maybe something happened to Amy and baby Hurley is taken off island and adopted. Or maybe Amy realizes that bad things are going to occur on the island and sends Hurley away for his own safety.

If the baby is Hurley that means that Hurley's father is Horace, who built Jacob's cabin. Maybe that's why Hurley was able to locate Jacob's cabin. And maybe being born on the island gave him special abilities to talk to and see dead people, like Eko and Charlie.

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but it's fun to speculate!

--Enenra MacCutcheon

Anonymous said...

Enenra MacCutcheon said. . .

Oh and one more thing about Hurley possibly being Amy's baby. I checked the Lostpedia entry for Hurley and it lists him as being born in 1977. But I'm not sure where they got this date.

--Enenra MacCutcheon

joshua said...

After puzzling for a while over possible 'Westerfield Hotel' anagrams last week, I noticed in the rebroadcast last night that several letters on the hotel's neon sign are burnt out when we see it. Then I tried anagrams with just the illuminated letters -- WEST RFIEL HOT L. And came up with very little, save "worthiest fell" and "tethers of will."

If there's something in there, then I'm missing it.

DeborahB said...

There have been a few comments that Sawyer et al. don't need Jack et al. to show up any longer because they have a nice life in their island paradise, but the first thing I thought when I saw that Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles had integrated into the Dharma Initiative was nooooo! Take off those coveralls! The Dharma compound isn't safe! All of the Dharmites are going to die from Ben's death gas in what is their fairly near future, and unless something changes, that will include Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles because they have apparently become 'Dharma material'. I don't believe Juliet knows Ben betrayed/mass-murdered everyone in the Dharma Initiative, does she? If not, unless Miles has a heads-up because those dead DI's have told their tales of how they died, Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles (and possibly Daniel, depending on where he is) will all die unless the returning Losties get them to leave the commune before that happens. That wouldn't be a happy ending to their time-traveling tale.

DeborahB said...

@Daniel - for the neon letters still shining at the Westerfield Hotel, you can also get "twister of hell." Not that I think that means anything.

DeborahB said...

@joshua - Sorry! I had Daniel on the brain. It was your observation about potential anagrams for the lighted portion of the Westerfield Hotel that I was commenting on.

Anonymous said...

Hey Nikki. 1st timer here. Not happy. I normally love to let rip but I totally agree with almost everything you've said about this episode, a gal's got nothing to add. Then whatever thoughts I might have entertained have been covered by my fellow commentators that I ought to be ashamed that all I am going to add is a comment on the romance in the show. I am not ashamed though. I love it :)

Did not buy "Suliet". A flower& a cuddle? Not enough. Sawyer said I love you? So what?! He said the same to Cassidy and if we are to believe him from the "I never" scene with Kate, he had never been inlove before. Besides, a Sub came every two weeks and if Sawyer&Juliet had found love why did they not up and go no matter the year? Again, he was waiting for Locke to return the O6(in my view i.e Freckles), Love Elizabeth Mitchell but that soporific voice she uses to calm James always makes me miss a few scenes as I try to rouse myself and refocus. I think the writers could have picked someone else if the plan is to show Kate that Sawyer got busy. Also, why can't Juliet ever find a man that wants her and only her? She puts herself in these situations and poor Kate gets blamed when she gets rejected. LOL. Here's why I stopped bothering with doubts as to who Kate will end up with. I would like thoughts from you, Nikki, or anyone.

Have they ever explained the scene with Kate&Sawyer at the airport in Lockes dream?(and we all know Locke is special. You don't show up in his dream for nothing:) Kate helps birth Claire. Sawyer saves Claire and is stuck with Aaron(At which point Shepherd says to, I forget who, Aaron is where he is supposed to be) Sawyer then hands him over to Kate, who Claire later on appears to, then Sawyer watches after the fact, Kate helping to birth Aaron. I just think the connection is too strong for it not to be THE love couple at the heart of this great mythological show. We also know how the writers love seperating couples through one drama or the other and that has been Sawyer/Kate all through. I don't care that he had 3 years with Juliet. It's quality not quantity and if I could delete the kitchen and cuddle scene from, La Fleur, it would be my best episode of the season so far. That Sawyer/Kate love theme by Giacchini that came on at the very end just gave me goosebumps. Loved it. Nope. No soap opera for me there. Soap opera was Sawyer picking the flower and smelling it and the saccharinne I love yous, just seemed so fake. Okay, sorry to have interrupted an intelligent conversation with mindless babbling about romance. As you were.

Allegra

swac said...

I love that little tidbit about the numbers being ASCII code for the character µ (mu) and Mu being the Pacific equivalent of Atlantis, with all sorts of interesting cultural ties (to Lovecraft, Heinlein, Robert E. Howard and...Mega Man Star Force 2 and the video game for Duck Tales 2).

Aside from wondering if Locke turns out to be Mega Man, I'm reminded of the band The Justified Ancients of Mu-Mu, which later became the KLF, although one of its other alter-egos was...THE TIMELORDS! Which means that Richard is really Dr. Who and the Island is his TARDIS.

It's all starting to make sense now...

redeem147 said...

Maybe who Amy's baby is isn't important. Perhaps the importance is that we saw a baby conceived on the Island born healthy.

Teebore said...

but the first thing I thought when I saw that Sawyer, Juliet, Jin and Miles had integrated into the Dharma Initiative was nooooo! Take off those coveralls! The Dharma compound isn't safe! All of the Dharmites are going to die from Ben's death gas in what is their fairly near future,

I had completely forgotten about that...that if the Losties integrated in the DI stick around long enough, they could die in the Purge.

However, I'm still reluctant to think of that as the danger from which the Oceanic Six need to save them, considering the Purge won't occur until 1992, which gives Sawyer and everyone else 15 years yet to be on the island and possibly leave or otherwise put themselves in a position where they'd be safe from the Purge.

Also, by the time the Purge is carried out, Ben will definitely be on the island and looking recognizable to everyone that knows him, which could also set off some alarm bells or spur action on the part of Sawyer, Juliet, etc.

mgkoeln said...

Hi from Germany!

I'm not quite sure if this has been mentioned already in the close to 200 posts (Wow! What's happening to your blog, Nikki? It's just exploding!):

Remember a cryptic piece of dialogue from last seasons "The Other Woman"? When Juliet mentions to Others-psychologist Harper, that Ben has always been good to her, Harper answers:

"Of course he has. You look just like her."

Back then we speculated, that Harper was hinting at Juliet's resemblance to Ben's mother. But what if "her" is actually Juliet herself? Maybe in one of the next episodes teenage Ben will have a crush on a certain sexy car mechanic!

Benny said...

@Allegra: the dream represented the current setting of the characters at the time Locke had the dream. The setting, Sydney airport, was the off-island micro-environment.

Brian Douglas said...

DeborahB: The purge won't happen until 1992. The Losties are safe with Dharma...for now at least.

Vanja said...

Actually, it just occurred to me that the reason Others wore beards when they first met Sawyer in Season 1 Finale may be that they weren't sure which "version" of him did they get - the one that just came to the island, or the one that's spent 3 years living as a member of the "Dharma" initiative.

Benny said...

@Vanja: I'm not sure how this fits with the timeline.

For myself, I assumed the beards were to hide their civilized identity. Maybe to present themselves as fisherman, not to spook the rafties right away. Since they were coming for Walt, they had to know who they were confronting.

YAY!!! 200!

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