It’s... Dr. Linus.I'm late to the game, and there are already 110 comments, but here we go anyway... I haven't read your comments yet, so here's hoping I'm not simply repeating everything that's already been said.
Whoa... Alternate Universe Ben is so SWEET!! I’m totally in love with him. I know he’s probably never fallen into anyone’s “palatable” list but I think he might have just moved onto mine (that one’s for Sonshine and Joan!) In an episode that showed once again that in the AU the characters are learning to sacrifice things for other people, it’s moving the series more to a final exploration of destiny vs. free will. In the AU, destiny still rules for now – no matter what people do, they still end up close to other characters from the island – but free will is there, too. Ben chose on the island to stick to his ambitions and Alex was sacrificed for it. But here, his quest for power isn’t as great as the way he cares for Alex, and he backs down. It’s an amazing about-face for this character. Perhaps in the AU he was never taken to the Temple, and therefore he still has a soul.
Highlights:
• Leslie Arzt!! And Ben calls him Leslie! HAHA! (How much do I love that no matter what reality we’re in, he’s always going to be a grumpy high school science teacher.)
• Locke speaking up at the lunch table, and telling Ben that if he cares so much about this place, and if the man in charge doesn’t, then he should step up. Brilliant tie-in with the other world.
• Another Lapidus patented zinger: “You make friends easy, don’t you?”
• Ben opens the door, “Alex!” and for a half-second I’m thinking, “Oh wow, he still has Alex and he must have broken up with his wife and...” “Hi, Dr. Linus!” “... and how strange that they just happened to... wait, Dr. Linus? What?!” I LOVE that in any timeline, Alex and Ben are linked. She’s his protégé here, not his daughter.
• “Cheese curds...” teehee!!
• Hurley and Jack are back!
• It’s crazy Muppet arms Richard! Only he’s looking a little less crazy-eyed. Just a little less.
• Nikki and Paulo reference!! I have to admit, my first reaction was, “NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!” but then I started laughing hysterically.
• Hurley asking Richard Alpert if he was a cyborg or a vampire. HAHA!! (and I love that Richard actually knew what a cyborg was!)
• “Linus, you’re a real killer!” :::shivers:::
• Ben: “Get me? For hhhhhhwhat?” Oh Ben. How I love you and the way you talk.
• Miles holding one of the diamonds! HAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!! Wait... does that mean he dug them up? Could they walk again as undead zombies of the island? NOOOO!!
• Widmore’s coming!!
Answers:
• So THAT’S why Ilana took the ash... because she knew Miles could “hear” it.
• Ilana isn’t here to protect Jacob, as previously thought; she’s here to protect the candidates.
• Lapidus missed Flight 815 because he overslept. (Though that might have been caused by drinking, though he doesn’t say it.)
• Alex: “Isn’t that totally gross?” Ben: “Totally.” Haha!
Did You Notice?:
• Was anyone else yelling, “Run, Benny! RUN!” at the beginning? No? Just me?
• When Ben catches up to Ilana and Miles and everyone, he actually TELLS THE TRUTH. What is THAT all about?!
• When I first saw Principal Reynolds I was convinced he was a principal in a John Hughes film, and then realized no, it was in Real Genius with Val Kilmer.
• When Miles told Ilana that Ben killed Jacob, I was literally saying out loud, “Come on, Ben, talk your way out of it!!”
• In the original timeline Ben killed his father with poison gas... now his father requires a gas to stay alive.
• WHOA. When Roger was talking about how they’d been in the DI and they’d left my jaw just hit the floor. So this means that the bomb going off was NOT the event that altered and created the AU? Or was it? Or does the bomb going off mean that they made it so they couldn’t come to the island at all on the Ajira flight, and therefore Sayid wouldn’t have shot Ben? If that’s the case, then WHO dropped the bomb that reversed everything? That is probably the single most confusing thing I’ve seen this season.
• Ilana seemed upset that she wasn’t one of the candidates. Understandably so, too... does anyone else think that Jacob seems to taketh away far more than he giveth?
• Giacchino totally had new loopy goofy music for Hurley when he was in the jungle, right after Richard came to them. (Speaking of which, I haven’t said it yet but YAY GIACCHINO for Oscar night!! How much did I love that he was wearing the grape soda bottle cap pin from “Up” on his lapel??!!)
• When Ben was rifling through Sawyer’s things, he brushed over “The Chosen” by Chaim Potok. Quick Amazon summary:
Few stories offer more warmth, wisdom, or generosity than this tale of two boys, their fathers, their friendship, and the chaotic times in which they live. Though on the surface it explores religious faith--the intellectually committed as well as the passionately observant--the struggles addressed in The Chosen are familiar to families of all faiths and in all nations. In 1940s Brooklyn, New York, an accident throws Reuven Malther and Danny Saunders together. Despite their differences (Reuven is a Modern Orthodox Jew with an intellectual, Zionist father; Danny is the brilliant son and rightful heir to a Hasidic rebbe), the young men form a deep, if unlikely, friendship. Together they negotiate adolescence, family conflicts, the crisis of faith engendered when Holocaust stories begin to emerge in the U.S., loss, love, and the journey to adulthood. The intellectual and spiritual clashes between fathers, between each son and his own father, and between the two young men, provide a unique backdrop for this exploration of fathers, sons, faith, loyalty, and, ultimately, the power of love.
• I’ve got to do more research on the East India Trading Company.
• I am totally in love with AU Ben. Nikki ♥ Ben.
• “A promise is a promise.” I can’t take credit for this, but someone pointed out during the Globe chat today that that’s the same thing Locke said to Jin when he told him not to show the ring to Sun.
• Miles refers to the Annoying Duo under the sand as “jabronis,” and I’m pretty sure Sawyer called them that as well.
• When Alpert said he needed to die, I yelled, “NOOOO!” (I’m having that reaction a LOT in this episode!)
• Was anyone else thinking the school nurse was going to be Juliet? The moment Ben looked a little jealous about the principal having a fling with her, I wondered... but I was very relieved when she wasn’t. (Unless they’re suggesting in the AU the school is actually the island, and they’ll all end up there!)
• Nice one, Jack. You just go ahead and carry that kerosene lamp into the ship FILLED WITH DYNAMITE (these were my exact notes as I watched the scene, before I realized Jack was officially No-Fear Jack™!)
• Thank god the fuse stopped or Richard Alpert’s last image before death would have been the Jears.
• Jack is 100% convinced he’s right... only a couple of days after the last time he was 100% convinced he was right, and for all he knows he was actually wrong on that one.
• That thing Locke did with the shackles?! Whoa... it was like... a Jedi moment.
• The principal says he will “torch” Ms. Rousseau. Interesting use of words.
• I mentioned this in the Globe chat and I don’t want to sound negative, but why not just say, “fine” to the principal, have him write the letter for Alex, and then take him down next year? Ben’s got WAY worse stuff on him than he’ll ever have on Ben, and Ben can wait for Alex to go and make his move on the chair of principal.
• I seriously love Giacchino’s reunion music.
• The return to the camp reminded me of when Juliet was brought back... everyone rushed forward to hug Jack and Kate, but then Juliet hung back the same way Richard and Ben do here.
So Many Questions...
• When Ben was talking about Napoleon and Elba and the loss of his power “Without power it was meaningless, he might as well have been dead,” a chill went down my spine. Will he die at the end of the episode, either on the island or in the AU? Is it possible he’s already dead and died when he was a child before being taken to the Temple?
• What does Ilana mean when she says Jacob was the closest thing she ever had to a father? Did he take care of her the way Ben took care of Alex? What did he do for her that made her so loyal to him?
• Something I wondered about: Are candidates crossed off because they’re dead? Have we seen anyone crossed off who was actually still alive? Perhaps they’re not crossed off because Jacob lost faith in them, but because they’re dead. Perhaps he wrote all of them down, and then as the Man in Black/Smokey takes them out, he’s the one crossing them off. It’s like his own personal to-do list.
• When Miles says that Jacob cared about dying, was he telling the truth? Or was he just trying to get Ben into trouble?
• So how did Rousseau end up in LA? Does this mean she never went to the island in 1988? Were the numbers somehow stopped? When exactly did the rift happen in the timeline?
• Is Widmore the one Jacob meant when he said, “They’re coming”? Is he the person Jacob was trying to hail with the lighthouse? What side is Widmore on? Who will he align with when he gets there?
Original post:
Well, was that an awesome episode or WHAT?!
Sigh. I'm writing this on Monday night from London, UK, and of course I haven't seen it, nor will I have seen it when all of you have. They're making me pay for the internet by the hour here, so I doubt that I'll be able to watch it at all before my return Thursday night. :(
So, I open up the floor to all of you to comment to your heart's delight, and I'll probably have something up on Thursday. And feel free to talk about it openly without worrying about spoiling me; I'll just be avoiding the comments until after I've written my entry.
Have fun!
189 comments:
Two words: Michael Emerson
His performance talking to Ilana is powerful enough itself to earn him a lifetime achievement award.
ON THE ISLAND
It seems Ben is back to his knowledgeable self. He his well aware of Dogen and his "interpreter". He may have been kept in the dark on some issues, but he certainly was powerful within the Others circle.
We are finally getting Richard's story, little by little. And it certainly seems like he came on the Black Rock. But the idea that he wants to die and asks not to believe anything Jacob says is worrisome.
Well, it certainly seems like Nikki and Paulo are dead if Miles is aware they were buried alive. (Happy Nik!) And Miles probably wants those diamonds.
Ben found a "Booty Babes", a book I couldn't get the title of, and The Chosen by Chaim Potok
--The Chosen by Chaim Potok--
From wiki: The Chosen is set in the 1940s, in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York City. The story takes place over a period of six years, beginning in 1944 when the protagonists are fifteen years old. It is set against the backdrop of the historical events of the time: the end of World War II, the death of President Roosevelt, the revelation of the Holocaust in Europe, and the struggle for the creation of the state of Israel.
Jacob has touched a lot of them and it can be a gift or a curse (claimed anyone?). Richard's work may not quite be done yet, and it seems he was just recruited by Jack and he will start giving answers.
Locke may be playing Ben, giving him what he's always wanted in order to make his escape. He's certainly convinced him that he wants him in his group, but how serious is he? Does he want him because he may turn out to be a powerful player? How is Ben being accepted by Ilana going to affect Locke's gameplan?
It's iconic that after being followed everywhere by Locke, he now felt reduced to following Locke without even a single purpose.
Now that Jack, Hurley and Richard have rejoined the crew, all that's left is to see where the remaining three uncertain pieces fall: Jin, Sawyer, Kate.
Widmore is coming to the island. He has found his island after all. Who will he play for?
IN THE FLASH-SIDEWAYS
Locke will always listen to Ben it seems. He will be the leader of the high school - not quite the Island I guess.
Note: Ben looks at his reflection in the microwave door.
It gets interesting. Not that Ben's dad is still alive here, but that they had been to the island and eventually left. This means the island existed in these 70s. It also seems like the two of them have a god relationship.
...so do Ben and Alex? as his student. Not surprising seeing her but the circumstances are intriguing.
Ben the blackmailer. He always had that manipulating personality within him. But he's not quite the knowledgeable and all powerful Ben here that we have come to know. He still seems to care profoundly about Alex, not in the father-daughter way we have seen, but certainly as a mentor and protector.
Choosing Alex's future over the principal's job shows how Ben's choice differed from on the island, as he had been saying to Ilana. Choosing her side may be indicative of that. The same goes for Jack and Hurley, possibly Jin/Sun. What about Kate? Is she innocent as she possibly claimed to Claire?
FAVORITE QUOTES
Jack: "At least he's not stallin'."
Richard: "I lied."
Artz: "I guess you're a real killer."
--On ELBA--
Originally referred by the Greeks as Aethalia (fume).
Throughout history the island has been disputed and eventually became the exile island of Napoleon.
-Jack has gained faith in Jacob.
-Richard has regained faith in Jacob.
-Ben has realized the error of his choice (has he regained faith in what Jacob truly was?)
Miles got his diamonds.
-Last we saw Sawyer, he was joining Locke, was he recruited though?
-Last we saw Jin, he was talking with Claire and Locke, could he have joine the wrong side and Sun the right one, the result would interestingly be a miserable life for Jin in the flash-sideways but a favourable one for Sun...
I agree, Benny. I was so moved by his performance. It was like you could feel that the end of the series is near and he gave it all he had.
What an interesting contrast on vs off island. Ben is making selfless choices and wow what a surprise to see Alex. I was expecting Walt. LOL So does this mean that she WON'T die now that he chose her over his own greed? I hope so.
I also loved the little phrases, especially the "you're a killer" line. Oh, and when his dad said "Who knows what you would have become." I laughed out loud...a LOT. Um, yeah....we know! Good to see his dad again. I was kinda wishing Danielle would pop up too.
And OMG when Miles held up the diamond! I shuddered. I was like OMG please NO!! LOL
So the ending...it was reminiscent of previous seasons where we have a party at the beach and another elsewhere. We have our "teams". And damn, was that a WTH moment when the periscope popped up??!! Does Widmore know what's going on? How will he play in this?
How are they going to wrap this up in 9 episodes?!?!?!
That sound you heard was me falling in love with Ben.
Gee.
That sound you heard was me falling in love with Ben.
Gee.
"Cheese curds" = 2 minutes of silent hysteria from me. I for one, am loving Hurley this season.
I was a bit confused about Alex's behavior in this episode: first she was telling Ben about what the principal had done, and then she asked the principal to write her a letter of recommendation. What?
Not-Locke wasn't so lucky this time around! And speaking of which, where is Sawyer?!
Well! They sure braided together a lot of threads in this episode. A couple highlights for me:
Ilana joins the parade of characters with missing or bad dads.
It was so beautiful how Ben put Alex first in this timeline. Does that count as redemption? :)
Near the beginning, when Miles said "uh-oh" to Ben, I wanted him to also say, "You're gonna get it!"
Of course, I've never been in such a horrible situation, but I'm pretty sure that I would refuse to dig my own grave. "If you're gonna just kill me, dig the grave yourself. Or not. Makes no difference to me." And speaking of graves, I enjoyed the sight of Miles with a big-ol' diamond!
I simply LOVED Michael Emerson's performance tonight...I truly felt Ben's pain at losing his daughter....
@JAZZYGIRL: Agreed. Michael Emerson's performance was stellar and seemed to be one of the nails on the coffin lid that would finally lead to the series being capped off in May. Way to go, Mikey!
OK, I must say, sideways-world Alex is GORGEOUS! I'm in love! :D
While Ben's speech to Ilana was nothing short of amazing, it was even more heartbreaking to hear Richard wail in despair about how his life has been meaningless (and that's one hell of a long life). All this time, cool and collected Richard has been waiting patiently for answers, just like us, and with Jacob dead, he'll never get them. Poor Richard! Here's hoping he finds some happiness before the end!
Widmore's forthcoming arrival can only mean (I HOPE) that we'll soon be seeing Des, Walt, Penny, Eloise & Faraday again!
Benjamin Linus - Wow! I have always loved Ben the character, and of course Michael Emerson is amazing, but I have never felt myself sympathizing / empathizing with a character like this, with exception of Locke.
More to come.
"Up until the moment the blade entered his heart, he hoped he was wrong about you."
and
"I'll have you."
Ben is loved, and so Ben is redeemed. And it's that simple.
Interesting how parallel Ben's Alternative Reality is with his Island Reality. In both realities, he is persuaded by Locke to use his power to destroy the ruler of his world, but in the IR, he allowed his desire for power to overwhelm his love for Alex, while in the AR, his love for Alex overwhelmed his desire for power. And the difference between the two realities is the Island.
Richard/Jack was an awesome interaction. Ben/Ilana was insanely awesome.
Love it, love it, love it. Ahhhhh... I could watch a Ben episode every week.
Rewatching it now with my Dad since he had a meeting so I will post more when we're done :)
@Sonshine: If you could get the title of that first book that Ben finds in the wreckage that'd be great.
There was Booty Babes magazine and The Chosen by Chaim Potok, but I couldn't make out the other one, faded cover.
Thanks!
It's hard to believe that the character of Benjamin Linus used to be known to audiences as "Henry Gale", and only appeared toward the end of season 2. Not enough can be said about Michael Emerson's talent for making this unique, manipulative, devilishly intelligent, and enigmatic character a fan-favorite. It's fitting that he and O'Quinn are the two cast members to win Emmys. They deserve them.
That said, this episode was another fantastic addition to what is shaping up to be a triumphant and satisfying conclusion to the series. Ben Linus has always been a tragic character, and it was great to see him apologize to Illana for Jacob's murder. He's definitely not an evil person, but is certainly misunderstood.
The alternative story was also very intriguing. A large revelation was the fact that Ben and Roger did in fact go to the Island, but left. They most likely left in 1977 (the year the events of the latter half of season 5 take place). It's unclear whether or not they left before or after the Oceanic Six arrived, or if Ben was ever shot by Sayid.
In fact, this episode seemed to address heavily the possibility of the alternative timeline. Roger asks Ben how things would be different, and Lapidus asks Ben the same thing on the Island. This could be thought of as another "bleeding effect", but could just be normal dialogue of imaginations.
Richard's past is finally coming into play, and we now know that he believed the Monster when it told him that Jacob was manipulating him all those years. Jack is now the one renewing Richard's faith in things, and it's a large evolution for Jack's character. As he's sitting next to that dynamite, it's as if he's finally ready to take another leap of faith. He's been playing it safe this season after the apparent failure to reset time and the death of Juliet, so this is a brave point for Jack. We still don't know why Richard has long life, but we do know that everyone touched by Jacob can't kill themselves.
This fact of not being able to commit suicide is similar to Michael not being able to kill himself. Is it the same reason? Was Michael ever touched by Jacob? Also, when Jack closed his eyes in anticipation of the dynamite's explosion, it looked exactly like when he closed his eyes on the bridge in "Through the Looking Glass". Conveniently, that suicide attempt failed as well, thanks to a distracting car crash on the bridge.
Also, if Richard didn't know about the Lighthouse, I think it's safe to say he had no idea about the Cave either, or the whole idea of candidates. Perhaps Richard is just a candidate who never had anything to do. Jacob seems to work patiently, therefore Richard is alive and essentially playing the same role for many years. In contrast, Locke seemed to always have a mission to do or a calling to answer, which led him to his death by being used by the Monster and not nurtured by Jacob.
It was fun to see Locke suggesting Ben for a leadership role in the alternative timeline, and then again (well, in Locke-form) on the Island. Ben's been competing with Locke for leadership of the Island for a long time, and here he finally hears the words come out of Locke's mouth...only it's not John Locke. Perfect.
Ben's desire to see Alex succeed was nice to see, and this episode really made the idea of Ben as a teacher very convincing. It's the best job for the man, and by not sacrificing Alex's potential for the principal job, Ben understood that it's more important to share his knowledge (his true power) with others instead of hoarding it and using it for his own intentions.
We see a nice comparison between the Island life and the alternative life in this episode with Ben. Just as he doesn't give in to his wants for the principal job, he doesn't give in to following the Monster to the Hydra Station. He knows that he won't be happy with the Monster because it's not John Locke and he knows that the Monster would continue to use him. Ben knows he is much more valuable to Illana and the "Good Guys".
Speaking of "Good Guys", it seems that our armies are now set for an inevitable confrontation between good and evil. Granted, it seems that the Monster has an advantage (it has Sayid and Sawyer and Kate = they all know how to skillfully use guns), but Jacob's team has potential in the strength of their faith to the Island. Jack finally knows that he serves a higher purpose, and it'll be that purpose that truly decides the fate of the Island's "ownership".
Why is Team Smoke headed to the Hydra Station? That island has a runway, but not too much else that I can think of that would be helpful in leaving. We shall see.
It was predictable with Alan Dale in the credits, but we now know that Charles Widmore is coming to the Island. Why does he want to arrive in secret? I personally think he is working for Jacob (he wanted Locke to live and get everyone back to the Island). I can't wait for Widmore to see Ben, especially since Ben still blames Widmore (along with himself) for Alex's death. Oh man, that should be good!
NEXT WEEK: Kate's crying, then Kate's smiling with Sawyer. I don't know, but it looks like Kate's gonna start getting some answers herself to what's going on with Team Smoke. She doesn't know that Locke isn't Locke, and thinks that Locke is still dead (which he is)!
Finally, I'm happy to know that Lezlie Arzt got a decent parking spot.
Boom. L O S T.
The first discussion my wife and I had after the episode was "when was the last time [so and so] saw each other?" For example, Sun and Hurley / Jack. I don't think it's been that long, linearly, but the passengers that flashed off Ajira have been 'gone' quite a while.
Something else that popped into my head and started bothering me was, is it just coincidence or, were the Oceanic 6 off the island just as long as those that flashed back to 1974. Did they all meet up in 1977 after 3 years had passed in their, again, linear lives? I mean, in keeping w/ the 'rules' that were used for the time travel, the Oceanic 6 could have been off the island for 3 years in their time, but could have flashed back to moments after Sawyer, Miles, Jin, etc. arrived in the DHARMA initiative, but the writers chose not to do that (maybe they just needed to give Jin an opportunity to learn english ;-)
Who's gone the longest without seeing someone? Maybe Widmore and Richard Alpert? Is any of this important, or should I just assume that time travel was used as a plot/story telling device to set up the "second chance" end game?
Hurley - Cheese Curds!
Jack - He certainly is badass. Talk about man of faith! He 90% KNEW that he wouldn’t blow up, and 10% wish he would. I remembered while watching him that really, in their time, it has barely been a couple of weeks since his pills were flushed down the toilet. He is still the addict in pain, but he is turning around, with faith, slowly. I am liking him more and more. And I love how he asks Richard to start talking, but he is the one giving the answers.
Miles – this is why he is still around. We needed to have the truth come out about how Jacob died – for Ilana, and for Ben’s redemption – and this was the only way it was going to happen. Ilana knows his power because her people tried to recruit him. And he got the diamonds. His talent is finally paying off!
Benjamin Linus 2 - I was totally waiting for a hot pocket to come out of the microwave! Since when do students show up at teacher’s houses? I agree with Benny, Locke will always follow Ben. Ben is a natural leader, whether or not he realizes it. I was really rooting for him to get the principal job, but unfortunately his manipulative super powers fell short. I liked the way they showed that in the sideways world, he chooses Alex over his own power needs, however “altruistic”. BUT, he still has those letters, he can use them later if he wants.
Benjamin Linus 3 - He just has a way of coming back from near death and imprisonment. I loved that Ilana said that she would have him, after hearing how much they shared the same pain and love. Him walking back to the beach after talk with Ilana was reminiscent of him walking through new Otherton after Locke lets him go after making a deal.
Jacob – hearing about Jacob as a father, rather than a god-like entity was interesting. They loved him. They gave everything for him. And they are now lost – Ilana, Ben, Richard. They don’t know what to do. As usual, the “good guys” are somewhat disorganized, all about the feelings, unsure about what to do next, and Locke seems so sure, organized, powerful. I can’t wait to watch this play out.
Sun – I really just want her to have something to say, or just shut up with the questions already!
Arzt – Yay! I think he has had more screen time this season then the first five put together!
Alex – so sweet. Why is she wearing blue contacts?
Widmore - I knew he’d finally get to the island. Which side is he on, really? Did he know Smokey would use Locke’s body?
@Marebabe - It was so beautiful how Ben put Alex first in this timeline. Does that count as redemption? :)
Absolutely it does. When they showed Ben in the office after, at first I was like "Oh no! No, no he must have kept fighting the bad principal AND saved Alex!" I am just waiting for poor Ben to die now :(
Also, Ben could've 'torched' the principal right back and worse. The principal's threat holds no water. What, a disgraced, unethical, immoral principal is going to say something bad? Big whoop, especially since Ben would then be the new principal AND has been her tutor so he knows her abilities even better. Ben should've threatened to take his job and then when the principal threatened to hurt Alex, Ben should have threatened to tell his wife and hand over copies of the letters to the newspaper. Ben totally had the upper hand here - he could have done both.
Still processing, processing...
Notes:
The Chosen by Potok dives deep into these conflicts:
1) Father-Son with reconciliation
2) Spiritual and secular life
3) Attempted homocide by baseball (seriously)
Dr Linus Mills is a murdering/lying character from Nash Bridges, acted by William Atherton, who is also playing the role of Principal Hanky-Panky in Lost's Dr Linus. Seriously, how do they do this stuff?
Now that Ben's finally demi-redeemed, Widmore better not blow it.
About the whole Alternate/Parallel Reality. I think we've been given more information today to believe it is NOT alternate, just as the writers have mentioned.
If we take the title of Jacob's book in The Incident, "Everything that Rises Must Converge" (great collection of stories by the way), the two storylines we are seeing will eventually come together.
The idea of redemption definitely seems to play right into this theory as everyone who has come to believe in Jacob has a semblant of positive change in their off-island lives.
The events set in 1977 with the detonation and the coming 'war' would may have just engaged a process for redemption; everyone has a chance to change how their lives will differ starting in 1977, the point of detonation. Therefore the flash-sideways are what happens after the 'war' ends at the closing of the series.
@Marshall: yes, in the past the event lasted 3 years, 1974-1977. So the survivors have had linear lives relative to each other.
Cheese Curds
Ha ha, Ben still "gassed" his dad in both timelines.
Highlights for me:
Michael Emerson -- awesome as usual.
Ilana accepting Ben.
Ben choosing Ilana instead of Locke and his "promises."
Jack and the dynamite. I'm thinking he remembered how he couldn't kill himself before at home.
Miles discovering the story behind N&P's death and later holding a diamond.
Tearful reunion with Jack, Hurley and Richard joining the rest of the good guys.
Frank.
No Sawyer! (for the third week in a row.)
@Jazzygirl: I was kinda wishing Danielle would pop up too.
Oooh.. me too. I kept hoping.
@redeem147: That sound you heard was me falling in love with Ben.
Uh-uh girl... I claimed him ages ago. You keep Sayid and your hands off my Ben ;)
@The Question Mark: Yes, Nestor Carbonell put in a remarkable performance this episode. I am lovin' it.
No one hugged Ben and Richard. :(
Benny, you are absolutely right. About everything.
Wow! Michael Emerson was really amazing in this episode. When he spoke to Ilana about losing his daughter, I was in tears. Imagine that - crying over how Ben Linus feels!!
It was very strange to see the parellels between Richard and Ben here. They have mostly been very strong people, confident in what they do and say. Tonight, both of them were the complete opposite: afraid, upset, both facing their deaths but not having that happen. The other thing I noticed when Richard was talking to Jack about how his whole life has been meaningless was that his voice even sounded like Ben's. Just close your eyes and listen and you may think that it's Ben who is talking.
Favourite combination quote (paraphrasing since I haven't rewatched it yet):
Ben tells the group that Sayid has killed Dogen and Lennon. Someone asks him if he's sure. Ben: "He was standing over their bodies with a dagger in his hand so, yes, I'm pretty sure."
Later, after Miles says that Ben killed Jacob, Ilana asks him if he's sure. Miles: "Well, he was standing over his body with a dagger in his hand...."
Favourite one-liner: "Cheese curds."
It seems like things from the one "world" are affecting/changing things in the other "world". It feels like decisions they make are being echoed in the other line. I'm thinking along the same lines as Benny that these two are going to converge in some way.
So many amazing things about this episode...
Some of my favorite lines:
Ben and Miles: "He was standing over the body(ies) with a bloody knife, so yeah. I'm pretty sure."
Locke: "It just sounds like you care about this place. If the man in charge doesn't maybe it's time for a change."
FLocke: "Visiting, what are you doing?"
Some thoughts:
Again Ben mentions the vast network that he can use to get pretty much whatever he wants? What is this network, where did it come from and what was its purpose? Was it just a Ben invention? Or had other leaders (Eloise, Widmore) used it as well?
Is there a single character on this show that hasn't uttered the words, "I lied."
That scene with Jack lighting the dynamite and then sitting down and saying, "Let's talk." was amazing. That conversation was one of the first times I've actually really liked Jack. Finally some growth!
I loved the way that Ben just spilled everything out to Ilana and the way she accepted him. That whole scene was electrifying. The way he said, "Because he's the only one that'll have me." So powerful.
And how much did I laugh when Miles held up that diamond. Oh, love it.
I realized that Sun is always one of the very first people to see people returning to the beach and to run to meet them. I think we've seen her do that at least 3 other times. It seems like she's always doing a lot of waiting around and not much going and doing. My sister and I are thinking (hoping) that Jin is the Kwon. It just seems to fit better for us. Though I'm sure a lot of people will disagree.
There was another major thing I was thinking, but it's flown from my head.
Well we find out that in the flash-sideways that Ben and his Father did go to the Island when Ben was young, but they left. Why did they leave?...Did child-Ben from alternate reality still get shot by Saayid? Or did that never occur? More questions! AHH!!
I can't wait to read Nikki's review of Booty Babes in Finding Lost- Season 6.
Ben Linus should not be redeemable, but the Lost writers, and Michael Emerson, just redeemed him. My stars, that was good.
With a performance that stunning, it's easy to overlook others, but Foxy and Nestor were also made of awesome.
Hurley and Miles are reunited. Cheese curds and diamonds for the win.
One thing did confuse me, though, perhaps because I'm forgetting something. Did Hurley actually see Richard in the 1970s? How does he know Richard doesn't age?
Frank overslept? How drolly pedestrian. I wonder if there was a deeper meaning to Ben's declaration that the island "got [Frank] anyway."
@Anonymous: Thanks. But doubtful!
Just commenting and theorizing. Giving my input and awaiting others'.
This is the fun of the discussions, sometimes being right and sometimes being wrong and being surprised that at some plot point we didn't see coming because we expected something different.
I think this episode was an easy watch AND with information inserted.
As everyone agreed, Emerson is just great and Ben is a fantastic character. Many connections/characteristics/contrasts everyone has seen. The fascinating thing about the show is how the different viewers interpret what we see.
I have my thoughts on it, and so do everyone else, and there are many different opinions and interpretations. The soul of the show really comes out of what is revealed and the collective belief into the meaning of what is not yet disclosed.
@Sonshine: Locke: "It just sounds like you care about this place. If the man in charge doesn't maybe it's time for a change."
Hadn't though about this at first, but this really is relevant on the island. There is a need for change, but it seems Jacob is aware of it and is motivating that change, while Locke is trying to take over while there is no leader right now.
I agree that Jack has grown a lot since coming back. He seemed to have a relapse in the lighthouse but ever since he was given janitorial duty and had the leadership load taken off his back, he has ironically assumed the responsibilities more maturely.
@Michael: The whole Ben having been on the island is really one of the most the important reveal as to what is happening in this storyline. We still don't have answers, but this definitely opens the door wide for more information to be revealed.
@latelylost:That's a good question, he may have seen him or, possibly, it's been discussed off-screen with another character...
Q: Vincent?
Michael: "Did child-Ben from alternate reality still get shot by Saayid? Or did that never occur? More questions! AHH!!"
My guess is that Ben never got shot because Sayid didn't crash on the island to later return home and then come back to the island in the 70s to shoot him.
Questions
1. If those that Jacob touches cannot kill themselves, did Jacob touch Michael Dawson?
2. If Richard doesn’t age because Jacob touched him, does that mean the candidates do not age? What about Sawyer and Kate, who were touched as children?
3. When did Ben and Roger leave the island? Did Roger blame Ben for his wife’s death, but then forgive him?
4. Did Widmore send Locke back to be used by Smokey? Is he team FLocke or Team Jacob?
5. Why do Ben’s outfits warrant comment in his centric episodes? Remember Ben the pimp? And now the sweater vests…
6. If there are six candidates, does that include Kate, or both Kwons? Shephard, Ford, Kwon (2?), Jarrah, Reyes, Locke, Austen?
7. @sonshinemusic – What is this network, where did it come from and what was its purpose? Yes, me too.
It seems to me that Sayid didn't shoot Ben in the AU because Ben didn't hate his father and Roger went to the Island to give Ben a better life, which makes me believe that something else happened earlier on to precipitate that change. Perhaps Emily's death occurred differently?
(this may have been predicted), but my thinking is that the aleternate reality is not what occurred after the bomb went off, but what occurs if Jacob never existed. He seems to be in existence at all points in our current timeline (i.e. visiting our heroes at all points in their life, knowing the future and past, etc..)
When he died, he ceased to exist in the past as well as the present, creating a new reality for everyone involved. The destiny thing still interplays with free choice (i.e. Saayid;s destiny to be a killer, although everything was still his choice....Ben's destiny intertwined with Alex and her fate being his choice)...It doesn't explain why this timeline still exists, but its an interesting thought I guess
Hmmm... intereting thought there Sonshine, talking about Emily.
If we take a callback to Locke's dream about Horace building the Cabin and maybe having a connection with either Jacob or his Nemesis. Then it's possible the entire encounter with Roger Linus occurs differently now. The influence he island and its protectors/inhabitants have had are significantly different.
Emily's early labour could be an effect of that.
I think Susan expressed the Ben being shot quite aptly. In this storyline, 815 never crashes because there is no island anymore, therefore there is no going conflict, no 316 and no going back in time for Sayid to shoot Ben.
This is the whole rationale for believing in "whatever happened, happened" that we see unfolding, this would create a paradox. But now it's a freestanding story unto itself.
@Michael: This has indeed been discussed earlier and a good theory. But what I believe may be more accurate using that reasoning would be:
What if the story we see unfolding is if Jacob's nemesis never existed?
This was the genesis for Jacob interfering in everyone's lives, it's not there anymore.
I guess they are two sides of one theoretical coin!
Love conquers all!
I re-watched Man Behind the Curtain, and Dead is Dead before watching tonight’s episode. The thing that stood out for me was how sad and faithful Ben was to Jacob with very little to go on. He had the power, and he had the island’s interests at heart, or so he thought, but in both, Locke/FLocke usurped him.
In MBtC, Locke basically disrupts everything in Ben’s little camp, including beating up Patchy, to get him to bring him to Jacob. He calls Ben out as a liar, and questions him in a way no one has before. Ben was only able to pretend in the cabin, but Locke heard (and saw) Jacob. Ben threw Locke in a ditch and shot him, just to have him “rise” (in a later episode, after a visit from “taller ghost Walt”).
In DiD, Locke is in tune with the island and knows stuff, and even his dead daughter tells him he has to listen to him. And, oh yeah, he comes back from the dead.
So it is interesting that in this episode, he completes the cycle, practically becoming subordinate to FLocke. FLocke comes to him in his weakest moment, to give Ben something he believes is worthless (or maybe he just said that). And he is willing to take it, not because he wants it, but because he believes that is the only place he is welcome. Which makes it even more beautiful that he is “saved” by truth - admitting he killed Jacob, and love - not only for his daughter, but for Jacob, which is something he has in common with Ilana. He has never been more sincere.
Anyone who says the writers are making it up as they go along isn’t paying attention.
I love how everybody's daddy issues are slowly all becoming woven together, with jacob as the daddy.
QUESTION: Was this the first time Jack & Richard shared a scene together? I can't seem to remember them ever meeting up before.
The Michael Emerson scene was one of the best I've seen on the small screen. Emmy, please! I was shaking by the end of it. He is amazing!
Glad some questions were answered...Miles got the diamonds, yay! And the Richard/ aging thing was addressed.
@The Question Mark - QUESTION: Was this the first time Jack & Richard shared a scene together? I can't seem to remember them ever meeting up before.
Possibly the first with ONLY those two, but they were together when Kate and Jack got caught hiding in the woods and Eloise shot Daniel. And then spent a good amount of time together under the temple while disassembling the bomb, and finding their entrance back into new Otherton.
Jack and Richard were together in The Incident, getting the bomb out of the tunnels.
Oh, right! LoL i totally forgot about their whole Jughead Quest! :P\
verification word: SEWOR: He-Man's enemy, who lives in the sewer systems and smells of fecal matter.
Great episode tonight.
I wish Nikki had full access.
I love her insights into the show.
Are you guys like me - do you always watch the enhanced version before the new one?
I DVR the shows (I'm at work) and always watch the old enhanced version first.
I think I'm gonna cry when this series is over. At least with Battlestar Galactica, we got Caprica.
When LOST ends, it's all over.
TV will never be the same.
Agree with all the comments. This was an awesome episode, the acting was stellar (especially Emerson's), and we finally got some answers (including confirmation the candidates are candidates for replacing Jacob. Three comments:
I'm really disappointed Richard came on the Black Rock in, what, the 1800s, was it? I had pegged him as way more ancient than that based on comments about how long he'd been there. With all the Egyptian iconography on the island, and his dark features, I was thinking/hoping he'd been around since Egyptian pyramid days.
Alex is flat-out gorgeous. What an exotic beauty. None of her features taken individually should work. But the combination is stunning.
On the idea of convergence of the flash-sideways and island worlds, has anyone else noticed the weird "tugs" on the characters in the flash sideways scenes? Remember Jack in the airplane bathroom noticing a cut on his neck and looking puzzled like he couldn't remember where he got it? Or asking his mom on the phone about his appendix, as though something about his memory related to the appendix wasn't right?
Characters in the flash-sideways often seem to be puzzled or pause for a second as they go about their activities. I'm forgetting half the examples, but you know the ones I mean, like two characters passing each other in the hallway of flash-sideways-world and momentarily giving each other an extra glance, like, "Do I know that person from somewhere?" Heck, that played out literally on the flash-forward airplane, when Jack asked that exact question of Desmond.
But tonight's episode had two of those moments with Ben, one especially weird. In the less weird one, when Arzt says to Ben that line about him being a real killer, Ben pauses as if trying to remember something, like it's hard for him to digest that line, like there's something in his past...
But the truly weird one is when Ben is talking to the principal, and he does this bizarre physical head stutter, turning his head sharply to his left and jerking it around for a second before rapidly jacking it back into place. It was a very unnatural and noticeable movement.
If you go back and re-watch the episode, carefully watch that scene with Ben blackmailing the principal. There's something really weirdly Max Headroom-ish about how Ben's head jerks around. I'm guessing the island is tugging on the characters in the flash-sideways world and this will grow stronger and more pronounced, until we get another "We've got to go back, Kate" moment where the flash-sideways characters realize something is wrong and missing with the things they are doing in their lives in that world and there is something "more" out there. Convergence.
I remember when Ben (as 'Henry Gale' in the hatch) did an equally moving speech,and he was totally
faking!
Did he just fool Ilana the way he fooled Locke way back in Season 2?
I love the actor Michael Emerson, but I don't trust the weasel Ben!
Sorta understand where you're going, pattyjean. I can never trust Ben.
Wait a second, are the writers playing fast and loose. Miles "read" the last thoughts of Jacob from a bag of asg. Yet earlier he told one of his clients he could not get any impressions from the ashes, he required the body. So did Miles lie in the first place? Or did the writers just skip over that earlier limitation?
Going back to the last episode, "Sundown", I got the feeling that we would see Sayid killed. Well, he shot Keamy, but as we know keamy survived being shot on the island. So why not in LA X world? And also Sayid is a bad shot, as evidenced from his shooting young Ben. I half expect when we see Sayid and Jin again, that Keamy will be missing, and he'll pop out fo nowhere and take out Sayid. Or maybe Jin will save Sayid?
My only thought on this was, too bad Ben didn't have Annie. If Ben got off the island, then she is porbably somewhere in the world.
Also there was a scene in one of the earlier episodes where Roger Linus signs on for an extension on the island for more money. If didn't sign on then he would have left.
Simply terrific tonight. I thought last episode was the best of the season, and tonight I've changed my tune. There is so much to like about "Dr. Linus," starting with Michael Emerson's remarkable performance. It's uncanny how he's able to make us sympathize with a "bad" guy.
Jack and Hurley's experience with Richard was surprising, as was Richard's loss of faith. I'm enjoying the character arcs this season with Richard and Jack.
I'll be posting on my blog tomorrow on this episode. I have a few deeper thoughts on the episode. www.pop-culture-pundit.blogspot.com.
Can't wait for Nikki to return!
I heard Hurley's "cheese curds" as "cheese carrots" which is even funnier!!
I can't figure out how Alex can be in Los Angeles. It appears she has lived in the USA maybe all her life because she has no French accent. It doesn't seem likely we'll see more of her, but I really would like to know more. Where are her parents Danielle and Robert?
I really loved this episode - I love the character arc that Ben has experienced. The end where he came totally clean with Ilana, and she accepted him was fantastic! Isn't acceptance what Ben has really been looking for all along. Iliana said the words to Ben that he had needed to hear first from his father and then from his second father Jacob and it was really touching.
I've also loved watching Jack's character arc in season 5 and 6. The faith he showed in this episode was amazing to see -- Jack has changed so much! The scene between Richard and Jack was amazing. Richard losing his faith and acting all out of control and then Jack giving him back his faith -- how weird is that!
I thought it was really great that Ben choose to stay with the Iliana gang. It seemed like following MIB was something he didn't want but had no choice. I was glad to see he finally did feel he had a choice.
@Brandon: "This fact of not being able to commit suicide is similar to Michael not being able to kill himself...was Michael ever touched by Jacob?" This is a great question, but I was wondering if maybe he was touched by MIB instead. When he finally did die it was after the specter of Christian Shepherd said "you can go now" -- kind of like he was releasing Michael from the hold that was on him. The question is though, was that specter of Christian really MIB or someone else.
@JS: I also wondered about the candidates not aging like Richard because they had been touched. That sort of adds an interesting touch to the story of our losties. I also wondered why Richard isn't a candidate -- he would seem to be a logical choice to take over for Jacob. Why not Richard!
Great episode -- can't wait to read Nikki's take on it!
Hi!
I'm new to these discussions, but have some stuff I really want to add.
I think this episode was absolutely phenomenal - one of the best in the whole series. And Michael Emerson is truly exceptional here (even more so than usual, which is going some!)
First, did anyone else notice that when Ben changed out his father's oxygen canister (green top - these things are color coded) that there was also a red-topped canister in the cupboard? My first thought was "why on Earth does he have an acetylene can in there?" Is Ben planning to use this to kill his dad in the AR, or is this just a production oversight? And if he IS planning to use that can on his father, why? They seem to have a good relationship...
Which brings me to this: So far this season, in almost flash sideways where we have seen a character in depth, it seems that the absence of the Island has had either no effect on the character, or a beneficial one.
To wit:
-Ben is the most startling example so far. In the AR, he appears to be a genuinely good man (the acetylene (?) can notwithstanding); he does not have the obseesion with power that we have seen him demonstrate time and againon the Island. He forsakes his shot at power to help out Alex. It seems that being shot by Sayid and then taken to the Others had a profoundly negative effect on Ben, and the lack of that experience leaves him a far better human being.
-So far, Ben's dad is alive and not the SOB that he turned into on the Island.
-Alex is alive, well, and probably on her way to Yale, and appears to be a pretty normal teen.
-Arzt is, well, Arzt - but at least he is not all over Hurley!
-Jack is more together than we have ever seen him and seems to have resolved his Daddy issues through his relationship with his son.
-Claire does end up deciding to keep Aaron, and presumably does not end up completely psych (unless she ends up having some sort of post-partum psychosis later - no doubt we'll see more).
- Locke seems happier and more accepting of his situation than we have ever seen him; as yet, he has not tried to kill himself and ended up murdered.
Now, it is still early in the season, and there is plenty of time to have this all proven wrong. And the writers of Lost do love to mislead us. But is it possible that Jacob's touch really is a curse, and he is not such a good guy, and that the island is not such a wonderful, special place after all, but a destructive force?
One more issue - does anyone know why this season and last are both so damned short? I feel like we are getting cheated, especially if this is going to continue to be the caliber of shows this year. I'm sure this question has been answered by the producers somewhere, but I have not seen it.
One reality informs the other. We see that week to week. Sayid is the best case example up to this week. He says he is no longer 'that' man but when push comes to shove he continues to kill. The difference between he and Dogen is that in the sideways reality that business man Dogen is with his son, not celebrating with friends. Dogen didn't just kill to get rid of a problem. That falling baseball was the reminder of who he was and the loss he had suffered and the sacrifice he continued to honor. He wasn't going to be a Sayid and kill to get what he wanted he sacrificed for someone else.
Jacob is the silent parent who teaches by allowing his children to figure things out for themselves and hope they make the right choices. Miles points that out to Ben by telling him that to the end Jacob hoped he had been wrong about Ben and I think that bit of information helps Ben to be true to who he would have been had he not lived his life on the island.
Ben is the powerless one who has the title but none of the real power and in the recent past that clinging to power cost him the person who mattered the most, Alex. In the sideways reality we see a Ben who takes care of his father. A Ben who wants power but isn't willing to sacrifice someone else to get or keep it. He may not have been the father to Alex but he acted like one by sacrificing power for her future. The sideways reality ultimately informes the final choice Ben made in not killing Illana. Funny they both have surrogate parent relationships, he with Alex and Illana with Jacob. His final realization that everything he has been doing killed his chance of happiness with his daughter and his need to explain who he had been was enough for Illana to decide that she would indeed allow him back into the camp.
In the end it's not the title who tells who you are but what you do that forms who you really are.
As a high school teacher myself, it was so cool to see Dr Linus in action - and he's a good teacher! Can you imagine having Michael Emerson as a teacher? Although it did bug me when his Dad said 'I wanted better for you' What's so bad about being a teacher? At least Ben discovered eventually that it's actually satisfying to help others rather than oneself.
@JS 'Since when do students show up at teacher’s houses? ' This is always happening in movies and NEVER in real life, unless North America is different to where I'm from.
Has there ever been such a long gap without Sawyer? At least Richard turned up - I'm quite liking hagard stressed out Richard, he's hot whatever mood he's in.
By the way, I LOVED this episode. It was the most touching thing I have seen in a long time, when Ilyana said 'I'll have you,' I was cheering out loud - on my own. The neighbours will think I'm insane.
So, so satisfying and then followed by a slow mo musical number with Miles looking at that diamond and Jack and Hurley coming 'home'. Just perfect. And an excellent contrast with the shocking creepy 'catch a falling star' ending of last episode.
Sadly I have some bad news for you. There is already a book cover published very similar to the one you are planning for the next book.
It is part of the highly successful Twilight vampire series.
Whether this is bad news or good I'm not sure. May some extra people will buy your book because of it !
I cannot work out how to get the picture on here but here is a link to it. Its on Amazon.co.uk and the book is called Breaking Dawn (Twilight series)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1905654286/ref=s9_tops_bw_tr01?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-4&pf_rd_r=1EGMK7P51HJT6X6HRNZV&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=479070893&pf_rd_i=1204852
You know, if been was patient he could've just waited until Alex got accepted to Yale and tried his plan again.
I was hoping for a scene with Ben and Locke in the teacher's lounge playing John's war strategy games, chess or backgammon
If it's just me, then so be it, but I wanted to throw this out there: did anyone else get a creepy vibe with the Alex/Ben dynamic last night?
Alex showing up at his house, asking where he was? Confiding confidential information to him like they're BFFs? It just seemed a little creepy to me...until the end, when Ben sacrificed what he wanted in the best interest of his student. But for a while there, I was thinking, "Oh, writers, please do not tell me in the alternate timeline that Alex and/or Ben have creepy feelings for each other."
Again, maybe it was just me. But where I come from, you never just drop by unannounced (and at night, no less!) to a teacher's house, let alone go there at all. And you certainly don't divulge such personal information.
Have Alex' eyes always been blue? Because they looked really blue last night.
Blue like Ben's.
@Fred Yet earlier he told one of his clients he could not get any impressions from the ashes, he required the body.
If I remember correctly, that father brought Miles his son’s clothing, not his ashes because they were spread on the football field (and in theory pretty much gone). And when he went to visit the grandmother being haunted by her grandson, there was no body, but the ghost was there. These two, taken together, would let the writers off the hook here – he had intact ashes, and Jacob is walking around, and could have influenced him as well.
@pattyjean - Did he just fool Ilana the way he fooled Locke way back in Season 2?
Back then, he had an ulterior motive, and we had no idea what was or wasn’t true. Here, he really has nothing left. I am choosing to believe it wasn’t a manipulation since everything he said we know to be the truth. The only time we have seen Ben lie this season, heck, since Jacob died, we knew he was lying or at least saw both versions of the story. We are no longer in the dark about whether or not what Ben is saying is true. As a matter of fact, I don’t think any of the Losties have lied on island this whole season. The other Others have, but not the Losties. You cannot be redeemed if you are still lying! If anyone has an example of them lying, please do correct me.
@redeem147 – Yeah, I asked the same thing. It is obvious Alex is wearing contacts, and no, her eyes were not blue before.
Hurley dreaming of cheese curds!
Ben: “No one else will have me.”
Miles-with-“Diamonds-in-the-Sky”!
Richard: “Jacob touched me - he gave me a gift (that he wouldn’t age & can’t kill himself?)”
When will we know what “gift” Jacob has given each of the Candidates whom he touched? Will they not age?
Frank overslept?!? “But the Island got you anyhow.”
“Admiral” Widmore?!?
What about Sayid????
Word Verf: marcitag : Not me! She’s It!
From Lostpedia
The other book Ben found in Sawyer's stash was titled "Benjamin Disraeli: Justice Is Truth in Action." No author's name was shown on the dust jacket. It may be simply a prop, a mock-up, rather than an actual book. Benjamin Disraeli (1804 – 1881) was a British Prime Minister, parliamentarian, Conservative statesman and literary figure. "Justice is truth in action" is a famous quotation of his.
I am really considering this to be a parallel universe now. I have been mulling over the possibility that the activities off island may be the lives that these characters get to live after the "war" is over as well, but I am not completely sold on that yet. I am sure we will see these universes collide in some way.
We've yet to see Sawyer in the parallel universe, and that may be a real indicator of what is going to happen (at least to him) on the island. I am doubtful that he will be a conman, per se, but will he be the opposite of what he was? He was a tortured soul who seemed to have given up on himself and was only out for revenge... So far, that is the current track that he is on "on Island" due to Juliet's death (twice lived, I might add). I am hoping for a better life for him in the parallel universe. The opposite of a conman...maybe a man of the law to parallel with his role in DHARMA. All I know for sure is that we just need him back on screen!!!!
As for Kate's parallel universe, it really wasn't that different...unless she really IS innocent (as she hinted at to Claire in the hospital). Kate will certainly have to plead her case to Claire ON island. That will be quite a showdown.
Since Jin and Sun are apart on the island, is it safe to assume that they are also apart in the parallel universe? I mean, he is in the fridge at the restaurant...and he is with Sayid. Just like on the Island. Is he still a stooge for Mr. Paik, or is he a simple delivery boy? Where is Sun? "No English" for her as well?
The upcoming showdown between Widmore and Ben will be delicious to watch.
Nikki and Paulo...AWESOME reference. Leave it to Miles. Best day for him this season thus far. Best payday as well.
Ok...I am struggling with time. How long since Ajira 316 landed on Hydra Island? The first "night" since they were back was spent with Ben, Sun, Frank and "Locke" meeting up with Christian at NewOtherton. The next day they all returned to the main island and started their journey to the statue. That night, as evening fell, "Locke" had Ben stab Jacob. The next day was a very long day indeed. Richard was strung up from the trees, Sawyer ventured to the cave, Jin met "Locke" in Claire's lair, Claire and Sayid delivered messages to the temple, and Jack and Hurley were at the lighthouse. At Sundown, all hell broke loose. Are we only on day 4? What a wild ride. I would have to go back to 1977 to track their days leading up to the Incident, but since they were shot forward in time to 2007, I'm not sure that they will add up precisely.
Can. Not. Wait. These episodes just keep getting better and better.
I think the reason Ilana believed Ben's reason for killing Jacob and accepted him is because she understands the loss of a loved one. I suspect Jacob made the same "hard bargain" with Ilana, that he did with Dogen.
Tanyam
@pattyjean: Although Ben has definitely been an outrageous liar, I don't believe he was lying to Ilana. The scene with him saying good-bye to Alex (I forget which episode) is one of the most heartbreaking scenes and he does it in private. I believe Alex was the one thing that he really and truly cared about and that gives credence to his speech to Ilana. IMO Ben has shifted and I think it was done well and believably.
@Fred: Yes, I certainly believe that Keamy could pop back up at any moment. The only way I could be more sure of this fact was if he were Patchy :P
@Lisa (until further notice): We did see Sawyer on the plane in the AU and he seemed to have conmannian ways about him. (seeming overly interested in Hurley's money, helping Kate escape). I'm really hoping that next week it's a Sawyer episode, because I miss him :(
@SonshineMusic, @Lisa (until further notice) - We can take Sawyer's comment to Hurley on the plane two ways -
1. He is somehow setting him up for a con, though it is hard to see the follow up from this
OR
2. He was sincere, and is in some sort of honest or law enforcement line of work. This might seem a bit of a stretch since he helps Kate in the elevator, so not 100% fool proof.
Since this is all about redemption, and he didn't seem like a guy who had just walked away from killing the wrong man, I am leaning towards honest Sawyer.
I haven't seen the title of the next episode, but the little bit of the promo's I saw seem to indicate he will be in the next episode. That said, I have stopped believing anything the promos say. Case in point, IMPLYING Ben will die. And that the time for questions is over. I hate them.
@Fred: But the client didn't have anything with him, no body no ashes. The presence of a physical remnant (i.e. body) is what is necessary probably then. The lack of anything is what Miles was alluding to.
@Rainier: They contracted a number of hours after season 3 to end the show. So for the past three years the seasons were already pre-defined in length. With the strike and shortened season 4, seasons 5 and 6 were actually extended over their pre-agreed length.
@JS: Kate saying she was bringing back Sawyer. She had no intentions of bringing him back of coming back herself. Jin wanted to find Sun when he left with her. He may have been more deceiving than lying, but Kate did lie.
But I agree with your overall thoughts.
As for next week, the title is Recon. But last week's promo said Ben would face his demise (not meet). Furthermore, demise does not imply death. I think the words were carefully chosen to play with the viewers' expectations/anticipations.
Verif: goingsin -- going sin WHOA!
@JS and @redeem147: Alex (the actress playing her, Tonya something-or-other) has always worn contacts on the show. It was even pointed out as a blooper in the episode in which Danielle Rousseau is killed in the jungle along with Karl (see Lostepedia) because one of her contacts falls out. I don't know why she wore them...but I guess the writers felt it would help her possibly look like she COULD have been Ben's daughter (before we knew all the what-with-all was going on about her being Danielle's and stolen etc.
Also @JS and @SonshineMusic, I know that we saw Sawyer on the plane, but I choose to believe that he was not planning on conning Hurley, but just being a "helpful dude" upon overhearing he was a lottery winner. As for him helping out Kate in the elevator, maybe he's not a man of the law, but a bounty hunter. Maybe we'll see them meet up in the parallel universe and he will take her in. I don't know...maybe he just thought she was hot. I can't wait to see him again next week. TOO LONG.
Oh, and how could I forget to mention how awesome Jack was in this episode? As you all know how much of a Jack fan I am, it is really paying off in spades now. He did almost cry, however, when Richard said something or other about how being touched by Jacob is a curse...But he kept the faith. Love his line to Hurley: "At least he's not stalling."
Oh, and another thing, I guess Jacob was right, someone IS coming to the island. Widmore. Does this mean he's team Jacob or Locke? Did Jacob help him find the island, or is Jacob's knowledge of his impending arrival just that...knowledge. Maybe Jacob knows that he will be team Locke and that is all part of the "progress". It always seemed that Widmore was at odds with Jacob and the island, or was he just at odds with Ben? Tune in next time...
VW: phyri...how things ended in the temple at Sundown.
Awesome episode, it will really be a sad day when I won't L O S T to spend my Tuesdays with. A few things that caught my attention:
-Ben and his dad were on the Island at some point, then left. They must have left before the blast, with other evacuees, because Ben was shot by Sayid and given to the Others by Kate/Sawyer before they headed off to destroy the Swan station. If not, does Ben remember being shot and brought back to life? Did the Others give him back to Dharma before the blast (Jacob's instructions maybe)? I don't know and it's making my head hurt at this point.
-Miles has some great lines in this one:
"UH OH"
"Sure, fire will fix everything"
"What, are you gonna write me a check on this banana leaf?"
-Jack fully accepting that he has been "chosen" was kind of strange to see, he seems to have completed the 180 and is now a man of faith, will this be his undoing?
-Michael Emerson was amazing and I agree with the Question Mark, AU Alex is beautiful. I half expect Ben to come back to the principle's office in a few months "OK, now that Alex has been accepted to Yale, let's get back to these E-mails. You broke the rules principal..."
WV: houtin - what you do right before you start "hollerin"
Pretty cool episode last night!
Loved Richard's flip from enigma to gut-spilling-cry baby! But I have to agree with someone else on here that I am a little disappointed in thinking that Richard's backstory is going to be all about the Black Rock. He seems to need more than that light explanation.
After seeing Widmore last night, my fiance (who puts up with my Lost Love, but has no interest in overthinking it as we do) asked why the hell it was him? What significance does he have that makes him the guy Jacob is waiting on to come to the island?
My gut response to him was that Widmore/Eloise were really the last leaders of the island/others before Ben. It seems that their leadership roles were earned and that Jacob chose them for that position. Ben, on the otherhand, seemed to come by his leadership position falsely and the fact that Jacob basically ignored him enhances that fact. So, Widmore was actually a candidate, chosen to act as protector of the island by Jacob. This would seem to give him a sort of seniority over the other candidates and make him that much more important in the 'war.'
Am I totally crazy or does this theory seem valid?
Also, totally off topic of this episode, but I read somewhere that Libby's husband was named David. This got me thinking when we've been discussing what apparitions are really ghosts, MiB, or Jacob, that maybe Hurley's Dave wasn't just a throwaway. What if Dave was really Libby's dead husband and when he came to Santa Rosa to haunt/look after her, he met this guy Hurley who he could actually communicate with? Then, when Hurley and Libby start hanging out on the island, Dave shows up and tries to convince Hurley to throw himself off a cliff?? Hhhmmmmm.... just sayin!
Is Widmore the only "Other" to have every used language like "There's a war coming" - ?
I ask because I believe he is, which to my way of thinking aligns him with the Man In Black, since Richard, Ben, et cetera seem to have been caught completely off guard by the MIB's coup...
I feel like Widmore would only say that if he knew the MIB were planning something. And maybe it was his job to position John in that casket to return - interesting that Ben finished the job for him unasked...
@Rad: At this point, it's more fitting with the development we've seen that Ben never got shot by Sayid, and in fact the losties never were in that universe. This new story is an entirely new development.
-Evidence: the sub had already evacuated when Roger was still on the island shooting Sayid.
Since many characters' stories are strongly different (Jack, Hurley, Sayid, Shannon, Ben, Locke, etc.) it stands to reason that we don't know anything that happened in this history.
IF the bomb had any effect, I believe it would be through universe piercing rather than being the direct cause.
WIDMORE - @Jessica:
Consider this. What if Jacob knows someone is coming and asked Hurley to bring Jack to the lighthouse knowing he would destroy it, trying to prevent Widmore from coming. The 108 may just have been a throwaway and Wallace is someone who's been dead for a while.
But if the lighthouse is to watch people, then it might not be a real lighthouse in terms of navigation and possibly Jacob DOESN'T know Widmore is coming.
Thoughts?
I loved the AU Ben/Alex plot, and I fully get that Ben would sacrifice his aspirations to fulfill Alex's dream of going to Yale...
BUT...
Seriously? Yale? She would have NO future without acceptance into Yale? Everyone who's ever graduated from anywhere else might as well be dead? She should have made it a bigger deal about Yale being her dream earlier, because the notion that her LIFE depends on going to Yale was just ludicrous! :)
I wonder how much Yale paid them to portray it as the school which has the sole market on granting futures!
@SP: Yale may not be the only future, but it's definitely a big plus over the second best alternative she would have.
Point is, this is what she wants, her dream (a good one a that), and Ben is in control of letting her have it, or forcing her to go somewhere else for his minor aspiration to be principal.
He chose her dream/aspirations over his, that's what's more important, not that it's her only future.
@Benny- WIDMORE - @Jessica:
"What if Jacob knows someone is coming and asked Hurley to bring Jack to the lighthouse knowing he would destroy it, trying to prevent Widmore from coming."
Thinking back to the conversation Jacob had with Hurley after the fact... although the mission was "unaccomplished dude" Jacob said that the person would find a way anyways, so I don't think that the goal of bringing Jack there was to destroy/prevent.
"The 108 may just have been a throwaway and Wallace is someone who's been dead for a while."
Highly possible as jacob's goal seems to have been for Jack to understand how important he was, do we know Widmore's middle name? Charles Wallace Widmore?? Like Charles Wallace Murry from "A Wrinkle in Time"?? ooohhhh, my brain lightbulb just exploded!
Mark R.Y. at 2:33
Thanks! I also heard Hurley say "Cheese CARROTS"...and I watched it twice, heard it the same both times. (Didn't make sense, but he was dreaming. Dreams don't make sense.)
Anonymous at 8:53 am said, "I think the reason Ilana believed Ben's reason for killing Jacob and accepted him is because she understands the loss of a loved one."
Or, could it be, the reason she believed and now accepts Ben is because both of them have been led on, and disappointed by Jacob, just like Richard has? That's what I got out of the scene.
Richard was upset because he followed Jacob's orders for so long and never got any answers...Ben also followed Jacob and did his bidding, but in the end, Jacob cruelly snubbed him. Could Ilana be feeling the same? What did Jacob promise her? And now he's "dead" and she's left with nothing?
Did anyone see what was carved in the wood on the Black Rock when Richard went inside? He stopped at a particular spot and looked around, and there was something carved into the wood there. I paused it but couldn't make it out.
Sorry if it's already been posted and I just missed it.
Rewatching and noticed that Ilana called Miles by his first name: "You're Miles, Miles Straum?" Everyone else (candidates) are called by their last names only...just like on the "lists" that the Others always had.
Ben being all "kiss up", following Ilana around the camp and trying to get in her good graces and discredit Miles. All the while she's constructing a shackle for Ben to wear while he digs his own grave:) HAHAHAH
Richard stumbling out to meet up with Jack and Hurley and Jack says, "Where did you come from." Richard: "You wouldn't believe me if I told you."
Jack: "Try me."
Richard "Not yet."
Does this allude to where Richard REALLY came from, his past, not where he just was on the island in present time? i.e. the temple? I love Jack's line to Richard after the fuse goes out: "You want to try another stick?"
Frank to Ben (as he pours through Sawyer's old tent): "When you're finished in the library, how about giving me a hand with some firewood." HAHA
How come Ilana can't hear Smokey approaching Ben? Love when that shackle just pops off. Like magic.
The ending montage is such a welcome respite from last week's dark zombie death march. Boom. LOST.
Somebody else had mentioned this, but I remember thinking it myself...why didn't Dr Linus go ahead and stick with his threat against the lecherous principal? Couldn't he have forced him to send the letter to Yale ANYWAY, making that part of the conditions??
I really wanted to see Arzt get his dream parking space. Shaded, but without the bird poop.
@ Donna - it's a battle of wills. The principal was saying that he's willing to risk Ben going through with his plan if he has the Alex thing as a held back revenge. He bet (correctly) that Ben wouldn't be able to risk Alex's "no-other-college-is-worth-crap" dream.
Re: Ben not blackmailing the principal... The whole point of it was that he had changed, that power and deception and diabolical plans were not as important as the people in his life.
This feeds into my theory that the worlds are affecting each other. When he decides to put Alex above himself, that is the same time that he decides not to kill Ilana, but to tell her (shock) the truth.
Him following through on the threat, even if it was beyond the point of being able to hurt Alex, would have quenched the power of that original decision.
Is it me or does the LA X world seem a little deflated? The bad guys are less than stellarly bad, and the good guys seem to lead middling lives. Ben, like Locke, leads a largely unsatisfying existence. True each gets what they want--Locke will marry Helen; Ben gets Alex off to Yale. It seems instead that the next generation will have a better life than theirs. David will likely become a concert pianist, while Alex will become a History Professor.
Is this side-world then part of the adage, better to be a servant in heaven, than to rule in hell? Knowing LOST, we can't be sure. Certainly Ben was offered a choice by Locke in both worlds. And in both he turned it down. We cheer Ben's refusal of power in LA X as it resulted in a good outcome. Even Arzt got a new parking place. And on the island world, we cheer that Ben did not go over to the dark side, like Sayid did.
But there is a huge price to pay for following Jacob. Richard suicidal desire arises from his sudden belief that without Jacob his whole life has been meaningless. This is the existential crisis--the God is dead, now what? crisis. Jacob's followers really don't seem to know anything about Jacob's overall plan. Maybe they should stop for awhile on the beach and chat among each other. As part of the audience, I'd be happy to hear what they have to say, like Richard's backstory, and then Ilana's. Is the reason Richard never dies because he is like MiB, able to turn to smoke? And if he needed someone to kill him, then is only a candidate that can do that? At this point I think it would be fine if we got a few answers, instead of the vague responses he gave Hurley when Hugo asked him if he was a cyborg, or a vampire.
That bit about Napoleon and Elba. Reference to MiB? Or reference to Widmore, except Widmore doesn't want off the island, he wants back on, Napoleon in reverse. And are we going to find Widmore has someone we know stashed in the back of the sub? Did he bring Ms Hawking along. Or Desmond?
@ Donna S:
I don't think Ilana was disappointed by Jacob. She said he was the closest thing to a father that she had, but you could be right about her change of heart.
Richard, on the other hand is very disillusioned. Maybe Jacob uses the same method to recruit ALL of his "bodyguards". Hmmm... maybe he used the same method to lure MIB to the Island, back in the day. Flocke DID tell Sawyer that he was once a man and had experienced the loss of a loved one. MIB is also unable to die, just like RIchard.
Tanyam
@Jessica: CWW, neat!
"They'll find a way." Maybe this was to try and delay them then? Yeah we'll just have to sit and wait to see what happens!
@Sonshine: It's at the same time, but only in narrative. There's still some three years difference between the two.
@Fred: the only thing that made their life exciting was crashing on the island. The LA X life is as it was (w/ some differences). It's rather the island that inflated everything.
Work kept me away until now but what a phenomenal episode.
I loved the parallel right at the beginning: Napoleon on Elba=Ben on Craphole Island.
As Homer Simpsons once said, it takes two to lie: one to lie, one to listen, and with the exposure of his last remaining lie, Ben finds himself unable to get anyone to listen to him, thus ending his season long descent into utter powerlessness. Only then, it seems, was Ben able to join the "light" side.
(Incidentally, I'm choosing to believe Ben's heartfelt speech to Ilana. When it comes to his feelings about Alex, Ben doesn't lie).
Some of this has been touched on already, but I'm continuing to put my weight behind the theory that the sideways reality shows the characters' rewards for services rendered in the upcoming conflict. Last week we saw Sayid succumb to darkness and bam! In the sideways world, we see his life isn't any better and he can't escape his past demons.
This week, we see Ben deal with sacrificing Alex for his power, ultimately staying with Ilana and Team Jacob and rejecting FLocke, so in the sideways world, Ben gets to use his power to bring about a happier ending for Alex.
@Benny: There's still some three years difference between the two.
But we all know that time means nothing on the Island. ;)
VW: glueL - what you do when your L falls apart
@Benny: His performance talking to Ilana is powerful enough itself to earn him a lifetime achievement award.
Agreed, 100%!
asks not to believe anything Jacob says is worrisome.
Personally, I'm seeing this more as Richard being angry and disillusioned with Jacob ("Don't listen to him! HE told me my life had purpose but now he's dead and was lying all along!") rather than Richard having some insight to suggest that Jacob is evil, but I could be wrong.
@Gillian: was a bit confused about Alex's behavior in this episode: first she was telling Ben about what the principal had done, and then she asked the principal to write her a letter of recommendation. What?
I took it to mean that while the principal might be a pervert in her eyes, that doesn't mean, pervert or not, she still doesn't think she needs a Yale alumnus' letter of recommendation.
@JS Since when do students show up at teacher’s houses?
It was a bit overly-familiar but necessary to the narrative and not too out there for me. I could see it more in a college student/professor relationship, but I'm willing to chalk it up to their close mentor/student relationship.
@Joan Ben totally had the upper hand here - he could have done both.
Ha! Agreed. But then, it wouldn't have had the same thematic resonance. :)
@SonshineMusicIt feels like decisions they make are being echoed in the other line. I'm thinking along the same lines as Benny that these two are going to converge in some way.
I'm convinced that the sideways world is some kind of epilogue showing the lives of the characters after the upcoming conflict, in which their roles in that conflict (island reality) inform their new reality (sideways reality).
But it wouldn't be the first time I was WAY off when it came to Lost theorizing.
That conversation was one of the first times I've actually really liked Jack. Finally some growth!
Me too! The only other time I've even come close to liking Jack that much was in "316" when he was basically shrugging his way through most of the crazy stuff involved with getting back to the island.
Apparently, a little "crazy John Locke, man of faith" does Jack good!
@Anonymous Did anyone see what was carved in the wood on the Black Rock when Richard went inside?
All I saw were white scratches, which made me think of claw marks from someone in pain/trying to escape, but I didn't pause it to look any closer.
@Sonshine - Him following through on the threat, even if it was beyond the point of being able to hurt Alex, would have quenched the power of that original decision.
I hear what you're saying :)
I found though that Ben wasn't going for a power grab but rather he actually cared about all of the students and the quality of the school. I didn't find it to be a "greedy thing" - going after the principal's job. I found Ben to be fighting the good fight. That principal needs to be taken out of that job, he's a bad principal and getting him fired is the right thing to do.
But I *do* understand the whole romantic "just go with it and see what we are trying to show you about Ben's character" thing :D
@Sonshine:
true true.
I agree they are analogous and connected. I just won't go as far as to claim 1:1 causation.
I think the revelation Ben has on the island while confessing to Ilana is the catalyst for what his side-self becomes. This personality is a direct reasoning for why he chose Alex's future.
While the one-to-one is not obvious, the association is undeniable. We both agree to that!
@Teebore: But is 'reward' the proper word? Is Ben really rewarded? Alex certainly has a better life! But Ben does not have the same connection with her (raising v. teaching).
I would say that he his spared a miserable life at least. But I can't help but think that he eventually chooses a better life for Alex, leading to what he side-becomes and the actions he will inevitably be forced to take in order to achieve that purpose.
Some have posted thoughts along the lines of...maybe Jacob's not all "good", and maybe the MiB's not all "evil", and I definitely agree. I've had the feeling a number of times that we could see the roles reversed when the big reveal comes. (Along with this thought, I always questioned whether Ben was really the "evil" one, and look! He seems to come out in this episode as a conniving, but basically good guy who really tried to do what was right! I have the same feelings about Locke...is he really evil, or could he really be the good guy?)
Okay, so bear with me...keep in mind the thought of this blurring of "good" and "bad"...and then, think back to the scene from last week where Sayid confronts Dogen. Dogen says something like, "EVERY MAN has a scale...on the one side is good, on the other side, bad. Your scale leaned toward the bad side." When I first heard his words, speaking of a singular "man" being both good and bad, I was struck by the possibility that JACOB and the MAN IN BLACK could actually turn out to be TWO CONFLICTING SIDES of ONE PERSONALITY.
Haven't seen anybody comment on Dogen's speech yet...then again, I'm not on the LOST blogs 24/7, so I could've missed it.
Any comments about this?
@Benny: no, reward is absolutely not the right word. I just haven't come up with a better one yet.
If I want to WAY oversimplify, the way I see it so far is Team Jacob gets a (nominally) better life in the sideways world (Jack prevents his daddy issues from informing his own relationship with his son, Locke comes to term with his disability and the limitations of his life, there are limits to what Ben will sacrifice in the name of power) while Team Smokey is unable to grow past their issues in the sideways reality (Sayid gets Nadia back but can't love her himself and he can't escape his violent past).
Kate and Claire are the two wild cards in that theory, at the moment (of course, any upcoming episode could blow up this theory in a matter of seconds) as their lives could be seen as both no better than their current reality (Kate's still a fugitive, Claire's still a single mom looking for adoptive parents) and better than (Kate's made a friend in Claire and unborn Aaron, Claire is coming to terms with being a single mom herself).
Like I said, that's a complete oversimplification of what is likely a very complex relationship between the two realities (to use your term, it's not a 1:1 causation, but then, neither is much on Lost).
It just strikes me as very significant that in one episode Sayid turns to the dark side at the same time we see the first flash sideways where the main character isn't somewhat better off than before and that in another episode Ben expresses his sorrow for choosing power over Alex (which brings him fully into the Team Jacob fold) at the same time his counterpart makes the reverse decision.
Hey all: I've seen the episode and just did the Globe chat. It's almost 7 and I haven't eaten yet so I'm going to go grab dinner and then come back here and post my thoughts on the episode. It was VERY strange doing the Globe chat without writing up my thoughts first. I have extensive notes, and I hope to post soon! But I see 98 comments here, so you guys have definitely taken the reins as I always hope you will!! :)
Now that the episode has had some time to sink in, I am feeling more and more disappointed with it. Oh, yeah, the acting was great, and I loved Ben's not pursuing the principal's job in LA X. He totally redeemed himself as one of the good guys. I even sympathised with him acting for Alex. Sure he is not her surrogate father, like on the island, but he was a special teacher. Will Alex remember him in later years? Maybe, but she won't think of him as the major force in her life. She's already lauded the pricnipal for writing her letter to Yale.
But in the end the epsiode seems somewhat down in mood. What are we to get from this? A lesson not to pursue power for its own end? That the people in our livesd is what enriches us? I could have got all that without the island story. So in the end, I really like the episode, but it leaves one somewhat depressed. Is this the bitter-sweet Darlton hinted at which will end the series?
Oops, sorry, one last thing. Part of that bitter-sweet feeling comes from realizing that all these people who were together on the island will just separate never to see each other again in LA X. Like people you meet on a plane, get to chat with your neighbour for the 3 or 7 hour fl;ight, and then never see again, it seems that once they get out of the airport, the Losties are dispersing.
@lisa (until further notice) – thanks for clarifying the Alex eye color thing. Maybe my brain is correcting for the color her eyes should have been. :)
@lisa (until further notice) – I read somewhere (maybe even here!) that the area that was not colonized that Ben was quizzing Alex about was the Portugal territories, and that Locke thought the black rock may have been coming from Mozambique, which is also related to Portugal (history is NOT my strong suit). So maybe Richard is a Portuguese captain/trader/criminal/slave, and that is why he was on the ship.
@Benny - The two main candidates Jacob may have been thinking of when he said someone was coming to the island were Widmore and Desmond. The lighthouse is not a light house, it was a monitoring device. Jacob has already proven deceptive – we THINK he wanted Jack to smash those mirrors, so he probably already knew whoever was coming was using some other means. Does Jacob dying reveal the island to the world, similar to releasing the elctro-magnetic energy? Is that why Widmore can now find the island?
If both Desmond and Widmore are coming, it would make sense that Desmond was on one side and Widmore on the other. We may think Widmore works with MiB, but if we consider Ben has really been getting his direction from Smokey and not Jacob these last 20 or so years, maybe Widmore is on the “good” side. Something to chew on.
@Fred – I agree. LA X world baddies are just regular, like on a cop show. WE are so used to megalomaniacal super powers that a loan shark willing to hurt people seems like a waste of evil talent. Same with the good guys. When you aren’t battling good and evil or fate vs. free will, everything else seems pedestrian. AND re: Jacob’s followers being lost. Isn’t that real faith? Job-ian faith? It seems to me that even though Jacob is dead, Ben and Ilana, and now Richard, know there is more to it than just Jacob. He was the leader, but he had a higher purpose, and they can still help fulfill it by installing the candidate. The contrast is clear – Satan/MiB offers selfish desire fulfillment in a very tactical way – what if you could have whatever you wanted? All you have to do is follow me. Whereas “God”/Jacob ask for blind faith with either nothing tactical in return, or if there is something, total self sacrifice. I am not being very eloquent here, but I hope you get my meaning.
There's going to be a serious Emmy throwdown between Ben and Locke for Best Actor, but I'll give Michael Emerson the edge for the win. Holy mother of all that is thespian -- the man brought me to blubbery tears in that scene with Ilana. Quite possibly the most powerful scene of the series, if not the season. Whoa.
Having said that, this episode definitely upped the ante in terms of Jacob's "touch" giving immortality (or it could just mean that that's only Richard's gift, and his touch doesn't give that immortality to everyone). Also, perhaps this "sideways" is the faux-Locke reset that happens after they leave the island. Which means we now know the end?
Also, the island existed even in sideways land for Ben and his dad.
And finally, something I found quite interesting: that Ben was startled about the fact that Frank never flew the Oceanic plane. This means that he somehow was able to dodge karma, right? Even though he inevitably did end up there, the same circumstances that determined everyone else's presence on the flight did not apply to Frank. So is he some sort of free radical on the journey?
Oooh also in second place -- the Richard - Jack scene. Brilliant performances by both, but especially Foxy.
@Chapati Kid: Having said that, this episode definitely upped the ante in terms of Jacob's "touch" giving immortality (or it could just mean that that's only Richard's gift, and his touch doesn't give that immortality to everyone).
I'm taking it to mean that Jacob's touch is a gift in general, and not the gift of agelessness specifically.
I think it's different for everyone: for Richard, the touch gave him the gift of agelessness, for Dogen, it restored his son. It remains to be seen what gift his touch bestowed upon Jack, Kate, etc.
I'm fully prepared to be wrong about that though. :)
@Donna S.- conflicting sides/good/bad
I agree with you that it isn't all just Jacob=light=good and MiB/Smokey=dark=bad.
It would seem that Darlton would like to suprise us with the end result of Lost and to think that all of the slight allusions to the above equations were really truthful statements/clues to the truth... just seems sort of weak. We all comment about the show because we are looking for the underlying meaning/slight of hand storytelling. To find out that Jacob is the perfect/good boy and that MiB is just the big bad boy, well... that would be like Hurley asking Richard if he was a cyborb and Richard saying "Yes, Richard 2.0"
I also like your idea that MiB and Jacob are the same person, just split. I've heard it somewhere before, but I do think it is a good theory.
Remember that there is still one Kwon who is not on the island. Maybe the baby is the candidate since it was conceived on the island.
Miles is the man.
Wonder if Smokey would have still killed the pilot if Lapidus didn't oversleep? Was he targeting him?
Since we can speculate to our hearts content with this show, imagine Jacob created MiB as an opponent in a game. He just took some poor slob from the Egyptian days, and by his touch, Presto, MiB with all his smokie powers.
But now imagine that Jacob is also trapped by the island. He can travel off it, but he must always come back to it. The only way Jacob can be "escape" is by finding a substitute, hence candidates.
The only way MiB can escape is by killing Jacob and everyone else on the island--i.e. no possible substitutes to hold MiB to the island.
Some scenario like this might make sense of Ms Hawking's speech to Desmond that the "island is not done with you." Ben said pretty much the same thing last night to Frank. Notice, it's not "Jacob is not done with you."
So if the highest power is the island, the island probably brought Jacob to itself. Jacob's reward for coming to the island was to acquire or access some of its powers, like the touch, immortality, healing, and being able to bring other people to the island. Jacob might have brought MiB to the island as company at a later point, or perhaps he was already planning his own escape.
In that case, Jacob's "lightness" is not good but self-serving. And if both Jacob and MiB can escape without filling in the position of candidate, then the island will sink.
Jessica, thanks for your input.
Good to know my brain isn't totally "out there".
But then again...it could be that all of us "Losties" are a bit touched in the head, couldn't it? (LOL)
Saw this Word Verif, and had to post about it...
toxed - Must mean "on drugs", since to "detox" means to get off 'em.
Use in sentence: Man, I'm so toxed, I can't think straight!
@Donna S.: That's a good theory, and one we've been approaching since last week at least. Nikki actually put up a post on the duality.
It certainly would be a different way to think about the whole narrative as well.
I think Michael Emerson won the Emmy with "He's the only one who will have me."
I think Richard's disillusionment was dispelled when he saw that Jack's strength of faith. He's probably not as assured as he once was but I think Jack brought him back down to earth, at least. I really hope he follows up on "you wouldn't believe me if I told you."
Does anyone remember if "Chang" was one of the names in the cave? If so, might it refer to Miles?
Re "So this means that the bomb going off was NOT the event that altered and created the AU?"
... "If that’s the case, then WHO dropped the bomb that reversed everything?"
Why assume 1977 Jughead explosion occurred and caused island to sink and subsequent reversal? Another scenario is that Razinsky without inteference from 815ers (who in AU DIDNT CRASH ON THE ISLAND (and all the subsequent series of events that led to 1977 Jughead didn't occur)) and Chang would have drilled on and on and hit the megahuge EM pocket which would be more likely to sink an island?
Reversal of everything I think is something to do with powers of the island/Jacob rather than Jughead explosion. ("What if I said you can have anything in the entire world?" = island has ability to 'choose your own adventure').
Awesome episode!
I love Miles. I wish he had been on the show since season one. His one-liners are toooooo priceless!
Favourite Miles moment:
Ilana: He was the closest thing I ever had to a father.
Miles: *Uh-ooooh!*
@Teebore: Some have posted thoughts along the lines of...maybe Jacob's not all "good", and maybe the MiB's not all "evil", and I definitely agree. I've had the feeling a number of times that we could see the roles reversed when the big reveal comes. (Along with this thought, I always questioned whether Ben was really the "evil" one, and look! He seems to come out in this episode as a conniving, but basically good guy who really tried to do what was right!
Having seen the episode again and spent some time thinking about it, I really think there is something evil about Jacob. I mean, he and his group of followers behave as if they are in a cult. They follow directions with no explanations, are expected not to question, have given up everything else in the world for the island (Juliet left her family behind for them...), they engage in a never-ending series of lies and manipulations.
I still want to know what's up with the acetylene tank in Ben's cupboard. And I do not for one second trust that Ben is suddenly a good guy!
Ahem... Nikki, Ben has been on my palatable list for a very long time. I'm glad the rest of you are coming to your senses ;)
Okay, so I have to run, but I can't wait to read the rest of your post!
VW: listopye - a list of desserts
I think Ilana knows that Jacob drives a hard bargain (or what looks like it). Wasn't she in a hospital somewhere (Russia?), in really bad shape, when we last saw her with Jacob? Could it be that she was there because of some errand she ran for Him?
Urthus
I'm adding a couple of thoughts before going through all the comments, so as others may have already said: Hope I'm not repeating what's already been said.
Well for every answer we get a plethora of new questions.
When Hurley asks Richard why he looks the same as he did 30 years ago, Richard says it was a gift from Jacob. We also find out that when Jacob touches you, you cannot kill yourself; you can only die by another’s hand. So this leads to the following questions:
1) For those Jacob touched (Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sawyer, Jin, Sun, Locke), do they now not age? I can see that for the adults that were touched, but what about the children? How does that work with Sawyer and Kate? They obviously continued to age after they were touched. Sawyer looks every bit the 38-39 years old that he is and Kate is certainly in her late twenties. So when does the not aging thing kick in?
2) What is the purpose of the gift? Is it to give the final candidate immortality so he/she can protect the island forever? Does it mean that the other candidates with the “gift” will die? (How many immortals does the island need, afterall?) Will the final candidate/protector obtain the “gift” to pass onto others?
3) Was Michael touched by Jacob? I haven’t seen his name anywhere, but he certainly seemed to have the gift. He was unable to kill himself. Even Tom Friendly knew it. In fact, even others couldn’t kill Michael (Keamy’s gun jammed on the freighter). But when his “mission was done”, he was allowed to die. So what was his mission? Obviously, it was not to be protector of the island meaning he was not a candidate. Perhaps he was a protector of candidates. What Michael did allowed Sun, Desmond, and Aaron to get off the freighter and in fact, may have saved those on the helicopter as well. That would lead you to believe that Sun is the candidate, except for the fact that Jin also survived the freighter explosion even though he was left behind. Jacob’s touch again? So Jin could be the candidate. Personally, since both Jin and Sun were touched and their stories intrinsically intertwined, I think their candidacy should be intertwined as well.
What Ilana says in this episode is interesting as well. She tells Sun that either she or Jin or both of them are candidates to replace Jacob. She seemed to be aware that Ford, Shepherd, Reyes and Jarrah are also candidates. I assume that she knew that Locke was a candidate as well. When she says there are 6 left, does she count the Kwons as one or two? If she thinks of the Kwons as one, who is the sixth candidate since Locke is dead? Does she know it is Kate? And what about Frank? Last season, Ilana indicated he was a possible candidate. So is he a candidate or not? And if not, when did Ilana find out who the candidates actually were?
This stuff drives me crazy?
Dave: "Does anyone remember if "Chang" was one of the names in the cave? If so, might it refer to Miles?"
According to Lostpedia, both Chang and Straume are on the list.
"cheese curds" now Hurley will be forever linked with poutine for me.
Haven't read quite all the comments yet, so forgive me if this has been said. I think it was quite presumptious of Jack to believe he's indestructible based on the fact that his name (along with 359 others) was scratched on a wheel in a lighthouse. Did he not notice that some of the names represented people who did actually die?
I agree with Benny.
OMG. Bennocchio is now a real boy.
Right now it's looking a lot like the flash sideways seem to be a better deal than anything the Losties had in the real world. Locke has finally found his soul mate, and is getting a position of respect. Jack seems to have his act a bit more together, and is already a better father than we would've thought. Hurley's wealth has brought him a kind of peace that he didn't have befre. And now we see that Ben, without the island, has become a human being. Furthermore, Rousseau managed to stay alive, and so are Nadia and Alex.
By now the Ben episodes are becoming my favorite of the bunch. Now we see, with the explosion, Ben seems to have found his soul. His father, who treated him like dirt all his life, finally seems to have reached an understanding with him. (If the DI really did exist, maybe Ben's getting shot made Roger Linus realized that Ben was all that was left of his wife.)
And Alex. Ben cared about her on the island, but really showed ineptly. Now they're just teacher and student, but Ben still clearly cares for her the way a father would.
For the longest time, I thought there's no way that Ben could talk his way out of this situation. The heart seemed to have completely gone out of him. Simultaneously hilarious and frightening was his interplay with Miles, who finally found a use out of someone being a ghost whisperer.
His confrontation with Ilana was memorable, and I couldn't help but remember the one he had with Penny in Dead is Dead. Then, he wanted to kill out of vengance, but he didn't have the heart to kill a mother in front of her child. Now, he has a chance to kill Ilana, but instead, for the first time (arguably in the entire series) he tells the truth about his life. I never thought it was possible but, even knowing all the horrible things that he'd done, I felt sorry for him.
Now, for the first time, his fate is not his own. He has thrown in his lot with Jack, Ilana, but he knows that he doesn't have much of a chance left. He may have to die in order to balance out his sins, but when it comes to saving his soul.
Speaking of which,when you saw Widmore in the sub, did anyone else think "Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water!"
Joking aside, if Ben wants redemption, he better hope it comes soon. The island may forgive him; Widmore won't.
And if Michael Emerson and Terry O' Quinn want to do a series together, sign me up right now.
@Nikki-I saw the movie "The Chosen" with Robby Benson (sigh) and Maximilian Schell. I really enjoyed it.
And yes, Ben can be 'palatable' in a nerdy sort of way, in the sideways world.
I asked the same question w/Ben and the principle, why not just wait until after Alex gets into Yale and then attack again? Who knows that he wont. But he and the principle seemed like they came to an agreement, and he had a genuinely satisfied look on his face when he saw Alex come out of the room, that he did the right thing.
@Brandon-does this mean that John wouldn't have been able to kill himself also? Is that why Ben (needed to) kill him? What would've happened-rope break, or ceiling collapse? Interesting.
"Finally, I'm happy to know that Lezlie Arzt got a decent parking spot." HAHAHAH
@JS-hey I love your Avatar! I was just watching "Further Instructions" tonight with my husband (It's his first time around) where we get to see Des run around the jungle naked! Good times! Anyway, I like what you said about Jack with Richard. I too was wondering if he was thinking if this works, great, but if not, it doesn't matter any more.
And with Richard, at least he wasn't flailing his arms around like, I think Nikki said, a Muppet, and acting like a crazy person, but it is so surreal to se him asking, "So what do we do now?"
Nik - first off, I enjoy your posts every week and have for a while - thank you!
As far as your comment "Jack is 100% convinced he’s right... only a couple of days after the last time he was 100% convinced he was right"...
I think the big difference here from the bomb scenerio is that with the bomb and the stuff leading up to it with "gotta have faith jack" was that Jack believed he was meant for something bigger. With Richard and the dynamite, Jack knows he is meant for something bigger to his core. That difference in knowing and believing is huge. He isn't asking anymore "I believe I have a part in some larger picture, what is it?". He is now saying "I AM important and part of something beyond myself and it will be revealed to me."
@TM Lawrence-concerning father/son reconciliation-I've missed a couple of weeks blogging, so forgive me if I'm beating an old horse (is that the saying?), but it finally dawned on me too! The sideways characters do not have daddy-issues! Kate didn't blow up her step/real dad, but assumedly blew up someone he worked for. Yes, Jack still had issues with his own dad, but seemed to right that with the reconciliation of his own son. John seems to (per Helen's remark) have an on-going relationship with his dad, and now Ben, BEN of all people is taking care of his aged, ill father!!! (the one and only Roger Workman! Or Skeletor). There is definitely something afoot here!
@Mark R.Y.-"I heard Hurley's "cheese curds" as "cheese carrots" which is even funnier!!" Yes! That's what I heard too! He must like Birds-Eye!
@Nikki:
I get the feeling you don't feel the love for Jack. Ha ha ha!
I have always liked Jack, but I think the new balls out/wild card Jack is the awesomest! I think the writers are going to use him to get some big answers.
Tanyam
Leslie Arzt has received way too much air time. He's a jerk in any reality. And please don't let Jacob have somehow mistaken him for a candidate!
Anybody else think Ilana might have made similarly horrifying sacrifices for Jacob, and that's why she's moved to tears by Ben's confession?
Loving the new Raggedy Richard. Can't wait for his backstory.
HS teacher Ben has the worst hair of any of Ben's other incarnations, including the rug he was wearing last season. And his shoulders are better actors than some people's entire bodies.
Are we sure Widmore is alone?
Who are the 6 remaining candidates that Llana mentions?
@Deb: We also find out that when Jacob touches you, you cannot kill yourself
I'm not convinced it's that simple. Richard that his agelessness was a gift from Jacob, and that when Jacob touches you, he gives you a gift. The one could follow the other, but it doesn't have to.
I'm betting that the gift his touch bestows is different for each recipient; so for Richard, it's agelessness, but for Jack, Kate, etc. it's something else we have yet to learn.
@studiorose Did he not notice that some of the names represented people who did actually die?
He also cited the magic mirrors that showed his childhood home, but yeah, it was a bit presumptuous. Still, I'll take presumptuous, leap of faith Jack over Smashy Smashy Jack any day. :)
@Jennifer And his shoulders are better actors than some people's entire bodies.
Isn't that the truth?
@Nikki's post: Ben: “Get me? For hhhhhhwhat?” Oh Ben. How I love you and the way you talk.
Oh, that always makes me chuckle too lol.
How much did I love that he was wearing the grape soda bottle cap pin from “Up” on his lapel??!
Me too! That was awesome.
Thank god the fuse stopped or Richard Alpert’s last image before death would have been the Jears.
Bwa-ha-ha! :D
why not just say, “fine” to the principal, have him write the letter for Alex, and then take him down next year?
As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly what he's going to do, but it wasn't relevant to the episode, so we don't get to see it. :)
@Chapati Kid. I like the idea of Frank as a "free radical". That's a really nice analogy that seems to fit Frank's personality. I was thinking that Sun did not flash because she was not the candidate and that would apply to Frank as well, but perhaps they didn't flash so Ilana would be with them for their protection. Or maybe Sun is the candidate and Frank (who seems to admire Sun) is extra protection for her.
@Jessica. I just wanted to post that I love your theory about "Dave" being Libby's husband and never having actually been alive.
As others have said, Ilana has to know that Locke, who was one of THE numbers, is dead, but she still says six candidates. Maybe she's counting Sun and Jin as two or maybe it's "Wallace" at 108. Kate's number is 51, so perhaps there is a meaning there that hasn't been revealed. I need to go back and rewatch exactly how she told Sun about the candidates.
I don't think Jack was arrogant and I do think he might be aware that candidates have died. I think he was basing his assumption that he wasn't meant to die on the fact that Jacob wanted him to see the lighthouse, wanted Jack to know that Jacob had been watching him.
I suppose it's too much to hope that Desmond is on the BadCGISub?
Widmore wanted to get Locke back to the island so the right side would win. Does that mean he's on the side of MiB? Bram, clearly on Jacob's side, wanted to dissuade Miles from working for Widmore. Ben, ostensibly on Jacob's side, went so far as to kill Locke to prevent his return. I still think both Ben and Widmore are claiming to be on the side of right and think they are (were in Ben's case) helping Jacob. It's just that their personal vendetta is so strong, and Jacob's machinations are so Byzantine, that they ended up at cross purposes. It's like a power struggle in middle management, reflecting the power struggle in the upper echelons.
The Ajira plane is back on Hydra island. Surely MiB is not thinking it can get off the ground? They'd have to turn it to face the runway. And there's that little matter of the smashed windshield in the cockpit. I suppose it could just fly very low for a short distance. But after having seen what MiB did with Ben's ankle cuff, who knows. I'm having visions of Luke's fighter lifting out of the bog.
If Des is in the sub with Widmore, we will need some major explanation for how that came about. Last time we saw Des with Widmore, Des wouldn't even give him the security of knowing Penny was OK, and I'm betting Widmore doesn't even know he has a grandson.
@ Nikki's post
It's funny, it seems like all season people have been speculating about things that may have changed in the Altered Universe before the Incident in 1977. When Ben and Ethan appeared in the AU, there were comments everywhere wondering if they'd ever even been to the Island.
I've always just decided to assume the obvious until we're given definite reason to think otherwise: that the AU timeline diverges at the exact point the incident happens. And, if anything, Ben's father confirming they were on-island in the DI only supports this to my way of thinking. It's further proof that the pre-1977 AU was the same as the original timeline.
Meaning Ben and Dad left the DI sometime after the Incident. We've never been given reason to think that Jughead ITSELF is what sunk the Island. If the Island had been sunk in an instant after a massive explosion, the barracks, etc, wouldn't just be merrily built on the ocean floor. The Island went down sometime before 2004 and clearly resulted from the Swan's energy pocket having been destroyed - so maybe Jughead cancelled out all the Island's special electromagnetic powers. But the DI probably had time to keep trying to salvage their operation. Hence Roger and Ben leaving post-Jughead. Possibly Ethan, too.
V-Word: Peckles. They confuse Peter Piper.
It makes sense now how Jack kept seeing Christian around the island (Smokey in Christian's body).
And a thought on that: Jack needs to stop bringing bodies to the island! First his dad's body was taken by Smokey & now it's John's body.
And a theory that I had after that thought: Ben told Jack that he had to bring John's body back on the plane when he returned to the island. Now in the past we've seen Ben summon Smokey, so one might assume that Ben knows that Smokey can take over a body & use it. If he was so determined to make Jack bring John's body, maybe he knew the power that Smokey would have over the Losties in John's body. Maybe Ben is really on Smokey's side.
I lovedLOVEDloved Michael Emerson's powerful acting & it did make me like (maybe even love) Ben for a while, but I am afraid he's just being sneaky again.
Crazyinlost - …so forgive me if I'm beating an old horse (is that the saying?)
Actually it is beating a dead horse, meaning trying to get blood out of a stone. Beating an old horse is just plain unfriendly. :0
Clouse - Who are the 6 remaining candidates that Llana mentions?
For sure 4-Reyes, 15-Ford, 23-Shephard, 42-Kwon (1 or both), 51-Austen are not crossed out at the Lighthouse. Per producers, Austen is listed in the cave and crossed out. [Maybe that’s why FLocke looked at her funny??] 16-Jarrah is claimed, but not crossed out - Ilana knows Sayid has been claimed so she probably isn’t thinking of him as a viable candidate. The only other potential candidates are Littleton (Claire or Aaron), Linus (Ben or Roger) and Straume (if Miles) and they are the only ones we know of that are both on the list and alive. It is highly unlikely they are candidates as they are crossed out.
@Teebore – while I agree Jacob’s touch COULD bestow different gifts, the thing they probably have in common is they cannot kill themselves. Richard – dy-NO-mite. Jack – dy-NO-mite, jumping off bridge, various adventures with using and driving, Locke – talked down from hanging. I think the first time we see it explicitly is with Michael Dawson, but we did not see Jacob touch him. Somehow the island still had use for him, until he was released from duty.
I think the other thing we can say is they are hard to kill on island. Sawyer – gun shot, shark, electrical shocks; Locke – shot in the (missing) kidney, hatch explosion; Ben – various beat downs; Or we could chalk this up to Hollywood.
@JS: That's a good point. Jacob's touch could very well bestow protection, and be the source of all the general good luck the Losties seem to have in evading bodily harm.
I just don't think Jacob's touch=the gift of agelessness as seen in Richard. At least at this point. I could very easily be proven wrong.
Beating an old horse is just plain unfriendly.
LOL, I am going to say "Not to beat an old horse" from now on.
@Teebore, JS
That's where my thoughts went initially as well—that if Jacob's touch gave Richard agelessness, then it would follow that all of those who got touched would have the same power. However, I was then reminded that Jacob touched Kate and Sawyer as kids, and they have grown up. So then I started to wonder, as you have both suggested, if everyone gets a different gift from Jacob.
I thought that Jack's gift could be the ability to heal, but I can't remember of he performed Sarah's miraculous surgery before or after he was touched.
Also, really loving the idea that while the "power" or "gift" may vary from person to person, protection of life applies to all. Very interesting!
Finally got my LOST blog up. So as not to just plug and run, here's one of my favorite talking points from it:
Jacob & His Agenda:
While Jacob seems to be able to protect his Candidates to a certain extent, he certainly doesn't make anything easy for them. In fact, it's almost the exact opposite. One of my favorite revelations of the night was Miles telling Ben that Jacob didn't want to die and was in fact hoping that he was "wrong" about Ben. We all know that Jacob behaved like a mysterious, ungrateful jack-ass to Ben right before Ben knifed him, which leaves us with only one conclusion: Jacob will go to any length, including risking his own life, to force his Candidates to prove their character in the face of unwavering adversity.
"Linus" may have been crossed off both the Lighthouse and the Cave wall long ago, but Jacob still wanted to see Ben change, and was willing to give him neither an apology or nor an explanation to ease that transition. Ben's faith had to be proven in the worst possible circumstances. It's reminiscent of God's behavior toward Job in the Old Testament's Book of Job. And if this is the way Jacob feels he needs to treat all his Candidates... perhaps it helps explain just a little bit why the Others haven't been allowed to tell the our heroes ANYTHING about ANYTHING ever. Perhaps if they did, the true test of our heroes' make and mettle would be tainted.
What do you think?
Read more at www.sagaciouspenguin.blogspot.com
This show has been nothing but smoke and mirrors. Bam! That's right I said it. LOL.
Just thought of something that's connected to my previous thought!
It's been asked frequently why Christian Shepard wasn't able to help Locke up in the Cave but was able to hand Sun a photo of the 1977 Dharma Initiates. The question always seems to be why can he physically touch/interact with some things but not others. But I think what's going on here is that it's not that he can't interact with the physical world but rather that he can't physically help or harm the Candidates. (Whether he's Jacob or the MIB - and I suspect the MIB post-clothes change).
So handing someone something to look at is fine, but directly/physically providing them aid or injury is against "The Rules." So the same reason Dogen couldn't kill Sayid (6.03/06), Michael couldn't kill himself (4.08), Jack couldn't kill himself (3.22/6.07), Richard couldn't kill himself (6.07), Jacob refused to provide Ben any comfort (5.16), and the Others won't throw our heroes the tiniest morsel of aid or information (S1-S6) might be the same reason Christian told Locke he couldn't help Locke to his feet to turn the Donkey wheel (5.05). It's against the rules of Candidate-Interaction.
And while verbal aid might only be discouraged, physical aid is impossible in the same way all the suicides were impossible. While you're a Candidate, Jacob's touch is absolute. You can't be shot by anyone following "The Rules," but nor can you be stitched up by them. Though I suppose you can be given a sandwich by them :)
Just an idea!
V-Word: Berities - The Berry-flavored Burritos!
@Sagacious Penguin: I like your idea focusing on Job. Like Job, Ben has his life destroyed when Alex is killed by Keamy. He raises the question of faith and reward, much as Job's friends do. When Ben asks, "What about me?" it is an echo of Job's "Why me?" Ben has to learn that it was his own free will that resulted in his loss of Alex and not Jacob's indifference. He also has to learn, as Job does, that Jacob is a superior being, whose moral position exceeds that of Ben's. Incidentally, this is what Ilana learns listening to Ben. She realizes that it is not her role to punish Ben, that Jacob's moral high ground, if you will, excludes her taking up her own version of justice based on her loss of Jacob. The only position open to Ilana, if she wishes to retain her faith in Jacob, is to accept she is not the hand of vengance. By accepting Ben back into the group she is also affirming her alliance with Jacob, and Jacob's greater moral position. This interpretation echoes the story of Abaraham being told to sacrifice his son, Issac, on Moriah (remeber the wine the monks made and Desmond drank).There Abraham merely followed on faith God's command, much as those followers of Jacob follow his orders on faith. Incidentally, Ben's question, "What about me," is also a moment of doubt, and not just anger at Jacob. In asking this, Ben has become much like Doubting Thomas. And like Thomas, all Ben's earlier service to Jacob is just washed away in this single question. Thomas also was reaffirmed in his belief in Jesus, and equally Ben will likely continue in his belief in Jacob. Unlike Hurley, who believes in Jacob because he sees him, Ben has had to follow all these years without seeing Jacob. Then when Ben does see Jacob, there is no confirmation by Jacob that Ben has been of any service, there is not even an acknowledgement of sorrow over the death of Alex. But now Ben sees his own role in Alex's death, and like Richard, realizes that all he did before was meaningless as it was done for his own position on the island.
But I am troubles by Room 23, where we saw the film and the line, "God loves you as he loved Jacob." Does this mean we should questions Jacob's moral superiority? Perhaps.
@S. Penguin: Jacob still wanted to see Ben change, and was willing to give him neither an apology or nor an explanation to ease that transition. Ben's faith had to be proven in the worst possible circumstances. It's reminiscent of God's behavior toward Job in the Old Testament's Book of Job. And if this is the way Jacob feels he needs to treat all his Candidates... perhaps it helps explain just a little bit why the Others haven't been allowed to tell the our heroes ANYTHING about ANYTHING ever.
This is one of the reasons that I say the Others function like your garden-variety cult., and Jacob acts like the consummate cult leader: secrecy, tests of loyalty, lies, manipulation - this seems to be a way of life for the Others. And if Jacob is using his touch to recruit new cult members, then maybe Richard is right and it IS a curse!
I don't know if there really is a "right side" in this war between MiB and Jacob; More and more, I get the sense that there is something seriously sinister about Jacob, but find it VERY hard to believe that MiB is a good guy. But I can entertain the notion that MiB is who he is because he is trapped on the island...possibly by Jacob???
@JS-You're right, thanks for the correction. I was tired it was my first night back, wasn't thinking clearly, as I would never beat a horse, dead, alive or old.
This BY FAR is my fav ep this season! In a sideways world, Ben Linus has redeeming qualities!
The way they are tying these characters together-so much fun! I'm betting Arzt never dreamed, after the s1 finale, that he would still be on Lost!
Jacob was the closest thing Ilana had to a father-what does that make her?
So what DI did Ben and Roger experience. They seem to have an amicable(sp?) relationship, so did Ben still grow up with an alcoholic, abusive father?
Alex! I love, love, love this! To see them in a respectful relationship, with her, IMO, looking up to him as a father figure, since it seems her mom is a single parent, so wonderful. I know, it seems rather fanciful, but this is Lost after all.
"Doc Arnts 'knew' it was safe too, and I was wiping him out of my shirt 2 days later!" hahahahahaha
I too, love this 'reunion' montage music. Watching little tiny Sun run up to big ol' Hurley and give him a hug, started the water works. I was suprised she hugged Jack too, but considering all that's happened and being separated by 30yrs, I guess I understand. And then there's Ben, standing outside the love. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've felt sorry for him. Ben, we love to hate you. Are we gonna love to love you too?
@The Question Mark-"verification word: SEWOR: He-Man's enemy, who lives in the sewer systems and smells of fecal matter."
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!
I keep hearing the theme about 'comvergence', and that the two realities are gonna converge at one point, but how will this happen if the island is at the bottom of the ocean in sideways world? I just had another thought. (don't worry, it didn't hurt too much). On the plane in the sideways world, why were they flying over the island anyway? In the pilot, they were there because they were 1000 miles off course, w/o radio contact. Did this happen in S.W. also? And if so, did they land in Fiji first, and then go on to LA? Okay, now it's starting to hurt!
@Rainier-"Arzt is, well, Arzt - but at least he is not all over Hurley!"LOL,ROFL!
And, Welcome to our little island of insanity!
@Lisa(ufn)-I looked up the Lostpedia about Tania Raymonde, and they said that her eyes are really blue, buth the left eye has a brown spot below the pupil. If you look at the blooper picture, under high mag, you can see the left eye is blue with a big brown spot that almost looks like her pupil is big and misshapen. This could be the reason she wears contacts, so you can't see this. I really wanted to know, cause I always thought she really had blue eyes, and Mira Furlan has blue eyes with the dark hair, so she seemed like she could be her daughter.
@Sagacious Penguin-"Is Widmore the only "Other" to have every used language like "There's a war coming" - ?
I seem to remember Ben stating something of the such, but I could have dreamed it (cant always tell the difference).
@Fred-you comment about the S.W. being boring. To me it just seems more like real life, which can definitely seem boring at times. Which one do they want: the boring but straiter S.W. or the exciting but really screwed up real world? "Better to be a servent in heaven then rule in hell" really sums it up!
@JS-Yes! Thank you! Helps me pull my brain together on why I believe MIB is bad (besides evil-eyed NotLocke) and Jacob is good. Kinda like Jesus being tempted by Satan in the wilderness (it is Lent right now, you know), where he takes Him up on the hill and says, "All this can be yours, if you will just bow down and worship me". The human race is very easily tempted by what we think we need or want to make us 'happy', which is very different from joy, which comes from doing what's right and good. (Sorry, I'll get off my podium now). After seeing that look on Sayid's face last week when NotLocke told him he could have what he wanted, it was like he had been drugged. I will be very let down and disappointed with Darlton if it turns out not to be so.
@Studiorose-concerning RA and Jack-
Jack lit the fuse, and since he didn't leave, he couldn't die since that would be suicide. And since RA was with him, he couldn't die either.
I just had a random thought. The theory that MIB and Jacob are two sides of the same person (I think of STTOS "The Enemy Within") and I wonder, is this why they couldn't kill each other, since it would essentially be suicide? Thus, the need for a loophole?
word verif-antrino-an anti-nutrino
@crazy in lost - I have been thinking about the loop hole again, and I am thinking it may help us with the rest of our theorizing. But I just ran out of time. shoot.
I was thinking about the agelessness question, and it occurred to me(and I don't think anyone mentioned it, if so, i apologize), what if those touched by Jacob only don't age when they are on the Island ? So Kate & Sawyer were touched as children, but grew up normally off Island, and may have stopped aging once the plane crashed? And then off Island, they would begin to age normally again?
Paticus...Yes, I recall that someone did bring up that theory, that those touched as children would only cease aging once they got on the island. (Don't ask me to find the quote, but I know I heard that idea expressed.) It does make me go "Hmmmm..."
Word Verif: relythic
We went out to eat last night, and I had a relythic steak.
Donna S.- I had a feeling I may have missed it. Thanks.
And again, sorry to whomever's theory I restated.
crazyinlost: "@Fred-you comment about the S.W. being boring. To me it just seems more like real life, which can definitely seem boring at times. Which one do they want: the boring but straiter S.W. or the exciting but really screwed up real world? "Better to be a servent in heaven then rule in hell" really sums it up!"
I would definitely rather have my "normal," "boring," "easy," life than what the original timeline Losties have been through, but to quote Cookie Monster, "easy not make good television."
There WAS no Island in 1988. It sank in 1977, when the bomb went off.
What did you mean by Rouseau, and the numbers stopping, and the rift? Did I miss something?
@crazyinlost & susan: Side-world, exactly, it is tedious, real life, and for that reason at times boring. None of would ahve watched LOST if the show had ONLY been about LA X world. And that's my point. It's not which world would I or any fan want to live in, but which world do we want to see. You said it Susan, when quoting the Cookie Monster, "easy not make good television."
@crazyinlost: just a thought on your idea of "convergence" between world. the book title Jacob was reading was "All things that rise must converge." Now wouldn't it be cool if the island rose in LA X world? Instead of imagining that LA X world is the resolution of the story arc for the series.
Roger's comment about the DI, doesn't necessarily mean he was on the island. It could have been a summer camp like the Mittelos science camp. Most likely they were on the island, but only for a year or so. Ben had to have gotten off before Roger took up drinking too much and started hitting Ben. Had Ben been abused as a child, it's unlikely he would be caring for his father in his hour of need.
@ anonymous:I think this may have been postulated, but I don't think that we know definitively when the Island sank (sunk?), or maybe it just "moved" under water, since it is always moving in time and space.
Also, we don't know for sure if there was even an H-blast, and if there was, if it sank (sunk?) the Island.
As for Ben and Roger, they may have moved off the Island at any time, when Ben was a young child, perhaps, before he was presumably shot and "saved" at the temple.
wv - iaticle: I a-tickle you, you-a tickle me...
Ariel
I'm liking the theory of the AU being the real, original time line, and that our show is the ALT. Our time line is what happened after Jacob set out to change the event that caused the island to sink.
Your thoughts?
Hi all. I have been following the blog religiously this season. What if there is actually a third time line? What if Whitmore is actually in 2010 (our time) and it has taken him three years to get back to the Island. He does seem older than we last saw him. Recall that people on the Island seem to have no real perception of how much time has passed; Claire had no idea that three years had passed. Richard does not age on the Island; maybe to him the past hundred years have seemed like days!
That could mean that all of the children, Aaron, David, Walt for example are older in the "real" time line which would make it easier to incorporate them back in to the show. Do you think the vision that Locke saw of the child could have been a six year old? Aaron?
Just wondering....
@Gary: I like you idea, but this wouldn't actually be a third time-line but rather a time-difference or time-shifting. It's a continuation of what we've experienced so far and not a different story, as this season's flash sideways.
But I definitely like this idea!
@Nikki: What if there is no alternate universe? What if this is the future we're looking at? Remember how Bad Locke promises Saiyid (deal with the devil) that he will give him what he most wants if he does what he tells him to? What if it's the future we're looking at -- the clock is reset by Bad Locke?
I think Frank still has a vital role to play in the outcome -- there has to be a reason he and Ben had the exchange of words about him missing the flight, and Ben looks so surprised.
I heart Jack again.
Did anyone see the book Ben first picked up. It said Benjamin Disraeli and then a quote from him-"Justice is Truth in Action". What was that all about?
For the definitive answer about what Hurley says when he wakes up:
"Cheese Curds"
Thus saith Jorge on his new blog:
http://geronimojacksbeard.blogspot.com/
It's a Wisconsin thing -- all the "cheese heads" know it! :-))
Since so many other things have been said, debated, argued, discussed and dissected, I will add this one thing to the discussion, if it hasn't been mentioned already....
Jack is not a man of faith at this point in the story. Jack is slowly figuring things out, which is what Jacob wants him to do, as Jacob told Hurley Jack has to do. Jack is most like the audience right now. He is piecing things together. He is more of a man of science at this point, more detective than disciple.
Seems to me that Jack will be the one to end this whole island-thing. I do think there is a definite ending to this island story and everyone will get what they deserve. I don't think there will be a final scene with Jack as Jacob & Locke as MIB on the beach having a similar conversation that took place in the final episode of season five.
I heard "cheese carrots" too, for what it's worth. My laughter was heavily tinged with nausea. I'll take What Not to Give Lactose-Intolerant Rabbits for $200, Alex...
Speaking of Alex: Yay! Not too long ago on my own blog, and possibly here too, I wondered if a young Ms. Rousseau might pop up as a student of Ben's, but my guess was that she'd be a petulant little thing with occasion to say, "You're not my father!" The scenario that we got was much more heartworming.
I suppose we have almost zero hope of Walt showing up, since Malcom David Kelley is far to big to play him in 2004, but Batcabbage and I exchanged comments on "The Substitute" that ended with me imagining one of overprotective Michael's perhaps too frequent visits to Dr. Linus' classroom:
"Waaaaaaaaaaalt!!!"
"I'm right here, Dad."
"You forgot your lunch. Don't you ever... do that... again. Also, somebody set the car on fire, so you have to take the bus home."
VW: panthyl — Part panther, part pterodactyl, all awesome.
JS: And I love how [Jack] asks Richard to start talking, but he is the one giving the answers.
I didn't love that quite so much. Sure, I enjoyed seeing take-charge Jack, given that he's apparently on the right track instead of just blindly following his certainty down another path of folly and doom, but when he had a suicidal Richard square in his sights without finally prying some Nuggets of Forbidden Knowledge out of him it was a rip-off of high order. [Nuggets of Forbidden Knowledge, the new album from Deflated Ghost Chicken, on sale now — featuring their new hit single, "What Not to Give Lactose-Intolerant Rabbits"!]
JS: Ha ha, Ben still "gassed" his dad in both timelines.
Yes! I wrote down almost those exact words while watching. Granted, it took me five days to post as much here, but...
JS: No one hugged Ben and Richard. :(
What about them? 8^)
VW: Bonfoca — The miracle drug for astigmatism: Bonfoca. Ask your doctor about it today!
Sonshine Music: My sister and I are thinking (hoping) that Jin is the Kwon.
Ah, Kwon is the loneliest number. This one goes out to the Kwon I love. If you can't be with the Kwon you love, love the Kwon you're with.
VW: turcus — A turkey circus!
@Blam: oh, boy am I glad I popped onto my e-mail just now. That was the giggle I needed before heading off to bed. Seriously [Nuggets of Forbidden Knowledge, the new album from Deflated Ghost Chicken, on sale now — featuring their new hit single, "What Not to Give Lactose-Intolerant Rabbits"!] ?! Where DO you come up with this stuff.
And don't even get me started on Kwon
ooh! I just mistyped Kwon and it came out Know..... interesting? or coincidence? Don't mistake coincidence for fate!
VW: conymma - If you pull a Sawyer on someone's mother.
@me: The scenario that we got was much more heartworming.
Needless to say, I meant heartwarming, although Alex did have puppydog eyes.
"Seriously [Nuggets of Forbidden Knowledge, the new album from Deflated Ghost Chicken, on sale now — featuring their new hit single, "What Not to Give Lactose-Intolerant Rabbits"!] ?! Where DO you come up with this stuff."
It all starts with eating too many cheese carrots.
VW: jintly — How you put down something breakable in Australia or New Zealand.
"Alex! Have you been feeding Rabbit #8 cheese carrots again?"
"No, Dad."
"Then how do you explain all the bunny vomit?"
"Maybe you should stop pumping him full of sedative and shaking him for your hysterical con jobs."
VW: lasend — How you transmit le E-mail.
@Anonymous (one of you, anyway): Lotsa great points.
I'm really disappointed Richard came on the Black Rock ... I had pegged him as way more ancient than that based on comments about how long he'd been there. With all the Egyptian iconography on the island, and his dark features, I was thinking/hoping he'd been around since Egyptian pyramid days.
Me too. And we may yet find out that he was, although at this point I just hope we find out more about him definitively, period. [Knock-knock! Who's there? Sumeria. Sumeria who? Sumeria if ya love her that much! wah-wah-wahhh...]
Alex is flat-out gorgeous. What an exotic beauty. None of her features taken individually should work. But the combination is stunning.
Yup.
If you go back and re-watch the episode, carefully watch that scene with Ben blackmailing the principal. There's something really weirdly Max Headroom-ish about how Ben's head jerks around. I'm guessing the island is tugging on the characters in the flash-sideways world and this will grow stronger and more pronounced, until we get another "We've got to go back, Kate" moment where the flash-sideways characters realize something is wrong and missing with the things they are doing in their lives in that world and there is something "more" out there.
Wowee zowee. I hadn't noticed that, but now I hope I'm able to watch the rebroadcast before the new episode on Tuesday just to look out for this. The scene transitions between the timelines were definitely more heavy-handed than usual it terms of dialogue or visuals foreshadowing the switchover, and of course we've seen possible moments of near-recognition all along, but the actual tugging if it existed totally escaped me.
VW: compapho — Provide free local and long-distance service.
@Jessica: That stuff about Dave and Libby blew my mind. Nice!
VW: cryop — 1. Surgery to remove lachrymal glands. 2. Freezing of the 16th letter of the alphabet.
@Zari: I appreciate the official verdict on "cheese curds". And there's a sentence I never expected to type. I could say that about half the stuff that gets written here, though.
VW: laspep — Spanglish for "cheerleading squads".
I am not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but, when Alex was killed by Keamy, Ben said that the rules were broken. Was this because she was considered a candidate and he knew she shouldn't/couldn't be killed? I just thought about that when I re-watched this episode tonight with my husband. Also, when Widmore said to Ben "I know what you are" did that mean he knew Ben was a candidate? Just wondered if anyone else had thought about this.
Firstly AU Alex..........fit, secondly after hearing Richard explain that if you have been touched by Jacob you can not kill yourself I was wandering about Locke and his hanging 'incident'. Did Ben stop him because he new it would fail and that might get Locke thinking ?
After a few posts on Richard not being able to kill himself, the general idea became that candidates/those touched by Jacob cannot kill themselves.
This leads to the idea that Locke couldn't kill himself and Ben knew therefore took it upon himself without telling him.
But there is also this idea ging around that you cannot kill a candidate/Jacob (changing the rules), yet how does this fit in the Ben killing Locke scenario?
The rules must be significantly precise and must cover options we have not thought of yet. Could they apply only on the island? Could candidate be exempt from the rules? Though how does that apply to Widmore?
If Ben can't kill Widmore, why can he kill Locke? Both were off island situations. Were they candidates in their own rights? Does being claim affect how the rules apply as well?
The rules/candidates are the least understood aspects of Jacob and The Island.
"Also, when Widmore said to Ben "I know what you are" did that mean he knew Ben was a candidate? Just wondered if anyone else had thought about this."
In hindsight, thinking about these words, I was imagining that Widmore knew Ben was a "poser", that he was really just pretending to see Jacob all along, and Widmore had it figured out.
"I know what you aaahhh, boy."
Just my guess.
The scene with Jack and Richard in the bowels of the "Black Rock" was my favorite! Watching Jack KNOW that the dynamite would NOT explode, reminded me of the same look he had when he was about to kill himself on that bridge. He rolls his eyes and looks up and waits... for... it...
LOVED IT!!!
Richard becoming completely unglued each episode is awesome! He is going to be a puddle by the season finale. Poor Richard! Love him, but come on, you never saw the cave, the lighthouse, the ship??? How long was he there? What was he doing the whole time? Tucking in his shirt to his khaki's?
Also, remember Michael couldn't kill himself? Did Jacob ever touch him? Maybe Walt is Jacob? Just a thought.
I know this is seasons late, and I hope no one minds, but I just remembered to ask this question.. something that has always bothered me.. why was Walt soaking wet when we saw him appear to Shannon? Does anyone know? Did I miss something along the way? Would love to know.
@CBP68: We know Walt is special and this could be in play. But if you believe the execs (Damon and Carlton) Jacob has never appeared to the viewer in someone else's form. The only instances of Jacob we had was Mark Pellegrino (and maybe in the cabin).
As for Walt appearing to Shannon, I think the events are synchronous with Walt being kidnapped from the raft. The water could be symbolic or he could have fell in the water at some point. That's the best answer I have, if someone else has something better, that'd be awesome.
Appologies if this was mentioned a some time ago but...
Was anyone aware that Mark Pellegrino (Jacob) had started a recurring role on Supernatural... as THE DEVIL?
Just saying!
A comment on the island sinking. What makes me believe it's not the bomb, and that Ben and Roger did not leave on the evacuation is the line Roger gives Ben at dinner:
"Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed. [...] Who knows what you would have become?"
This certifiably suggests that they left out of choice and not because of some imminent threat to the island. Mentioning the possibility of a future had they stayed there.
Read your blog, I find your inner world is very rich also fascinating, I believe you will be successful, as long as you self-confidence!
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