“Ab Aeterno.” Latin for “from the beginning of time.”Since the beginning of season 3, I’ve been coming on here and writing up the episodes in my typical episode guide format: Did you notice this and that? Here are my questions... ooh, nitpicks! Wow, here are Hurley’s numbers!!
I’ve probably published more words on Lost than anyone else. I’ve spent more time writing about Lost than about anything in my entire life. And I’ve written about a LOT of other things. Despite that, I’ve referred to The Wire as the smartest show on television, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer still holds that place in my heart as my all-time favourite television show. But Lost is right up there... each week I marvel at the minutiae, giggle with delight at finding things in the background, piecing together the puzzle that has slowly unfolded over six years. But it has always engaged my mind more than my heart... despite my heart being fully engaged (please don’t get me wrong) my love of this show has always been in the piecing-together of it. I care about these characters, but I care equally about the war, the backstory, and where we're headed.
But tonight... tonight. I just finished watching “Ab Aeterno,” the episode I’ve been waiting for since Richard Alpert was standing outside the hospital window looking at baby John Locke. The episode that promised us answers. The episode that would go right back to the beginning. I expected a lot from it.
But I didn’t expect this. Guys, I’m writing this through tears. Tears that Lost just moved from the epic to the sublime. Tears of happiness at the answers we finally got. Tears of sadness from Isabella’s moving speech to Richard at the end (I sobbed like a baby through that entire scene). Tears of sheer wonder at Nestor Carbonell’s UNBELIEVABLE performance.
THIS is the episode we’ve wanted from the beginning. THIS is the hour of television that just made almost six years of loyalty worth it. THIS is the stuff I just KNEW in my heart was coming. THIS is the episode that all of those naysayers will have to eat their words over. This is my new favourite Lost episode ever (oddly, structured unlike any other Lost episode before it with the exception of Meet Kevin Johnson, which also flashed back to Michael’s backstory and didn’t do a constant back and forth throughout the episode) and I will defend it against any critics to my dying day.
I am still crying. I am SO HAPPY to have seen this. It was like watching a series finale... and MAN if the series finale can conjure up the wild emotions in me that this episode just did, then this really will be the greatest TV show of all time.
Buffy, move over... you officially have to share that “Nikki’s all-time favourite show” mantle with Lost.
I almost launched right into a video podcast, folks, but I’m blubbering and would be sobbing and sniffling and crying and laughing all the way through it and it would probably look more crazytown than sincere, so I’ll just stick to writing for now. I am just so over the moon right now, I’m literally shaking. Too much? you might say. Not for me: I’ve devoted YEARS of research to this show, and for it to have moved me the way it just did, to have engaged my heart so much more than my brain... all I can say is thank you. Thank you, Team Darlton... thank you thank you thank you. I am just so freakin happy right now I can barely form words to type.
But I must!!!!!! Ahem... :::wiping away tears, composing self::: On with the blog!!!
(OK, just watched it a second time and I’m BAWLING again!!!)
“The cork... is this island. And it’s the only thing keeping the darkness where it belongs.”
Last week I said that I thought Smokey’s speech on the beach with Kate gave him a lot of sympathy... his mother was crazy, he was trapped, he just wanted out. But after this week’s episode, I’m convinced that it was just the writers trying to lead us away from the clear thing: That Jacob really IS the good guy, and Smokey the bad.
The way that Smokey and Jacob talked to Richard is telling, and if you use the biblical stories as your guide, you’ll see how each one fits into it. The devil has a silver tongue, is persuasive, and will tell you whatever you want to hear. He’ll want your allegiance above all else, and will offer you something in return... but you have to give him something first. Smokey finds the keys to free Richard from the chains, but only when he gets his allegiance first does he unchain him. He tells him that if he does what he asks, he’ll get him his wife back. He tells him he’s the good guy, don’t worry, we’re the same, you and I... he tells him everything Richard wants to hear.
Jacob hits him before talking to him (not exactly endearing him to him). He shows him that he’s not actually dead or in Hell. He asks him if he wants to work with him, but doesn’t promise him anything for it. He tells him point blank that he can’t get his wife back, and he can’t absolve him of his sins. What he CAN do is give him immortality that will prevent him from ever having to go to Hell and face up to those sins.
And what of Isabella? At the end of S5 we were pretty convinced that Smokey and the dead people on the island were one and the same, but as I’ve pointed out repeatedly this season, I’m starting to doubt that, simply because Smokey doesn’t inhabit their bodies... he simply looks like them (as in Locke’s body existing separately from the lookalike Smokey). But he doesn’t wear the man-suits lightly, and I’m not sure he can easily create those beings. But if Isabella is telling Richard to kill the Man in Black, she’s clearly NOT the Man in Black. (OK, that and I just want that speech of hers at the end to have been REAL.) Perhaps on the island the dead can cross over and actually reach out to their loved ones?
Jacob says that he wants people to come to the island to prove the Man in Black wrong (looks like the Man in Black’s score is way higher so far, but Jacob hasn’t given up faith). He said he won’t intervene and won’t help people, but maybe he somehow lifts the barrier on the island so their loved ones can help prod them along? Perhaps Christian and Yemi and Isabella aren’t evil hallucinations, but good ones, trying to help the people they love to make the right decisions. Maybe Yemi was begging Eko to repent for good, not bad.
Jacob appears to be the good guy, but unlike Jesus, he’s not going to tell stories and die for their sins. There’s an interesting reference to Jesus near the beginning, when Richard is in the jail cell and the merciless priest comes in. Richard is reading the section in Luke where Jesus is rejected in Nazareth. The full story is here (what we see on the screen is verses 24 to 28):
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
23And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.
24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30But he passing through the midst of them went his way
In this scene, the people tell Jesus to heal himself, or to prove that he’s actually a miracle worker, and he refuses to prove it, just as Jacob won’t do any of that.
Jacob came off as a bit of a dick in “The Lighthouse,” but when he said to Hurley that he’s just leading them along without helping them, we now know that’s how he believes Jack might be the guy to finally make the right decision. But, as Jacob said then, Jack must make that decision on his own, without Jacob’s help.
And now Richard just might be the one lying in the shadow of the statue... if he kills the Man in Black, he could be the one to save them all.
Highlights:
• Nestor Carbonell.
• Um... the entire episode?
• Nestor Carbonell.
• The look of the episode... visually it was stunning... even the crapola CGI of the stormy seas didn’t disappoint me, simply because it was still pretty terrifying.
• Jack: Do you know who he meant? Ben: Oh, THIS should be interesting.
• The look on Jack’s face when he was told that Locke was the bad guy (I cannot WAIT for these two to come face to face again, even though Smokey isn’t Locke... I still believe Locke is in there somewhere).
• Richard giggling like a crazy girl when Ilana asks him what to do next?
• I saw Titus Welliver’s name in the opening scene as a guest star and I squealed.
• Nestor Carbonell.
• Richard crying over Isabella’s dead body was heartbreaking.
• Jacob referring to the other guy as the “Man in Black,” which is how the fans have been referring to him since “The Incident.”
• Richard screaming, “Does the offer still stand?” and Hurley saying, “What offer, Dude?”
• “She says your English is awesome.” (This is where the tears started for me, by the way.)
• Hurley telling Richard if he doesn’t stop the Man in Black, they all go to Hell.... and the cut to Locke turning to us. ACK!!
• Nestor Carbonell.
Answers!!!!:
• Magnus Hanso (previously seen mentioned on the blast door map as being buried next to the Black Rock) was the captain of the ship... something most of us assumed.
• And THAT is how the Black Rock ended up in the middle of the island... a massive tidal wave.
• And THAT is how Tawaret, the statue, was destroyed.
• Jacob (if his speech is true) lives on the island in an effort to keep the ultimate darkness from leaving the island and spreading throughout the world. The island is the lid on Pandora’s Box, and Jacob is the man sitting on that lid keeping it closed.
• The Man in Black believes that man is essentially corrupt. I suggested in my first Finding Lost book that if we have a Rousseau and a Locke, all we’re missing is a Hobbes, the man who believed that man was essentially corrupt. It looks like we’ve finally got him.
• Jacob brings people to the island to try to prove to the Man in Black that man is NOT corrupt and will choose good.
• Richard is immortal because he cannot be absolved of his sins and doesn’t want to go to Hell.
• His actual job is as Jacob’s intermediary between him and everyone who comes to the island.
Did You Notice?:
• Richard says to Jack, “Wanna know a secret?” the same way Locke said it to Walt.
• When Richard tells them all that they’re dead, how many fans’ jaws dropped? (I just assumed it was crazy rantings, but the fan service in that moment was all kinds of awesome.) Remember, it’s the same story that Anthony Cooper gave Sawyer when he was ALSO (like Richard) chained up in the Black Rock in season 3’s “The Brig.”
• Richard’s backstory begins in 1867 on Tenerife, the largest of the Canary Islands, a group of Spanish islands off the coast of Africa. Beginning in the 16th century, many inhabitants on the island succumbed to disease or were sold into slavery thanks to the immigration of people from the Spanish Empire. Richard and his wife were probably descendents of the original immigrants who came during that wave, so it’s a sad irony that they succumbed to both of those things.
• 1867 was the year of Canada's Confederation, i.e. the year we became a nation. Interesting they chose that year for when Richard's life fell apart. I guess when Canada came together, evil really WAS unleashed on the world!! Ha!
• The name “Isabella” means “My god is a vow.”
• When the doctor gets up to go to the medicine cabinet and the camera’s on Richard, the lightning flashes and there’s a large chair in the background that looks like an electric chair in the effect of it.
• The powder is white... another in the black/white imagery, but notice how to get this white powder, he murdered someone to get it and still lost his wife. “White” didn’t save him the way he hoped it would. A hint of what Jacob is or a red herring?
• Richard is abandoned by the church and his religion as the priest walks out of the cell with his Bible and his hope of absolution. The organized church has failed him... the priest is merciless and unforgiving. But he still has his faith, regardless.
• Did anyone else think Jonas Whitfield (the guy who recruits Richard for the ship) looked like Colin Firth?
• I think I said this in a comments thread a couple of weeks ago, but interesting that the ship is called the Black Rock, and there’s a black rock on the scale in the cave (Smokey’s thrown the white rock away).
• When Smokey moved in on Richard, he flashed the same way he did when Juliet and Kate were trapped in the tree in “Left Behind.” Notice Richard closed his eyes, whereas previously we saw Eko stare down the monster and that’s what we thought made Smokey go away.
• Here’s what I would have done if the rain had started and I couldn’t reach with my tongue... slide my shoe out with my foot, and then drag it back and drink it. Why didn’t the guy ever use his feet (like when the little nail was out of reach?) Small, eensy nitpick. In fact, forget I said anything. ;)
• Two words for that boar eating the dead guy: Dis. GUSTING. Oh my God that was gross.
• “It’s good to see you out of those chains.” That’s the same thing Not-Locke said to Richard on the beach right before whacking him in the neck.
• Nestor holds his body in a slight slouch as he walks up to the statue with the dagger, making Richard look completely emaciated.
• When Jacob brings out the wine bottle, I thought for a second it was the same bottle that Richard built the little ship in a bottle in last season (but if Smokey smashed it, it can’t be the same one).
So Many Questions...
• While I’m not sure, with 7 episodes left, I really want an Ilana flashback, I am curious about her link to Jacob, and I think if it’s more of an Ilana/Jacob flashback, I’d love to see it... how did she know him already? Did she wish that SHE were one of the candidates? You can’t mistake that look of disappointment on her face when he tells her he needs her help protecting the candidates, but doesn’t actually offer her a candidate position.
• Was her head bandaged in a battle trying to save another candidate?
• So wait... Sun is definitely one of the candidates? When was that determined? Do we know that for sure or is Ilana just telling her she is because she’s assuming that’s what “Kwon” meant?
• Does anyone speak Spanish out there and could tell me what Hurley was saying at the very beginning when he was talking to invisible Isabella when Jack came up to him?
• I’m wondering about the dead people on the island now... do you still think they’re manifestations of the Man in Black/Smokey, or are they actually there in some way? Could their spirits transcend death on this island to reach out and help their loved ones? I mean, if she’s a manifestation of the Man in Black, why would she tell Richard to KILL the Man in Black? Hm. I want to believe that speech by her at the end was sincere.
• The words that Man in Black speaks to Richard – telling him to plunge the dagger directly into his chest, you only have one chance, do it quickly, don’t let him speak or it’ll be too late, he’s very persuasive – were all the words Dogen said to Sayid when he was telling him to kill Smokey... AND he handed him the exact same dagger. How did the dagger move from one side of the war to the other, with exactly the same instructions being spoken?
• Jacob has the same crazy superhuman strength that Ben exhibited in S2... is there a link?
• When Jacob is killed, does his soul enter the next person who fulfills their candidacy? So, like the way Smokey looks different but is the same person inside, is Jacob still in there somewhere?
I feel like I have SO much more to say on this episode, but I have to watch it 15 more times tonight and cry some more and try to form my thoughts into something cohesive. I'll post more tomorrow and Thursday but until then... let's discuss!
A reminder that I’m going to be appearing on Space on Thursday night at 11pm! I’ll be on Innerspace in the opening and final segments talking about this episode (oh what a GLORIOUS episode for them to have invited me in to discuss at length!!) So be sure to tune in!!
And listen in to Marshall and Forbes on The Ocean 98.5 in Victoria, BC at 6 a.m. local time, 9 a.m. EST. Go here and click on the Listen Now button if you’re out of the listening area.
And tomorrow at noon I will once again be participating in the Globe and Mail Lost chat from noon to 1pm EST. Go here to ask questions and comment. See you there!
Next week on Lost:
298 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 298 of 298@Don: I don't think that the cork analogy is the entire purpose of everything that is going on. I just think we're starting to get answers as to what all of this is about. The Jacob/MiB struggle of good nature vs. corrupt nature and the evil containing thing is only part of it. I think that the people brought to the Island/Dharma/the Others/everything else we've seen are part of a much bigger tapestry, if you will, that we have only just seen part of so far.
The scene with Isabella and Richard in chains , hearing Smokie and Isabella being killed, is a repeat of Boone and Shannon. Boone is left in the jungle, tied up by Mr. Locke. Boone has the hallucination of escaping and freeing Shannon, only to see her killed by Smokie. In this case, Boone learns to let go of Shannon. In the case of Richard, Richard learns that he is in Hell. Or at least that is what Smokie wants him to know.
The episode begins with death and ends with reconfirmation of life, albeit through a Ghost Whisperer type of scene. Richard reclaims Isabella's cross, symbollically reclaiming his faith and love for Isabella. (This final scene also confirms that if you are on Jacob's side, it is the side of faith, but not religious faith. It is faith in the meaning of life even if you don't understand). This reclamation echoes the story of Mr. Eko. By finding Yemi's cross, Eko regains his faith and his brother.
I agree with an earlier blogger that if LOST comes down to a struggle of good versus evil, or that we have an inherent goodness in us, then that is kinda lame. Each episode from a actor's point of view has been incredible. From the audiences' point of view, this has been a thrill ride, building up to some sort of ending. But if the writers are only telling us life is a matter of good versus evil, then sorry but that's Theology 101 For Dummies. It's not even Philosophy. On the other hand, like Richard I have faith in Darlton, that they won't reduce their storyline to such a basic binary opposition. Like SonshineMusic notes above me, there is a bigger tapestry to the show, and the fun is trying to follow the warp and woofs of the weave.
@ Don: Would your mind perhaps be changed if the liquid in the bottle weren't the Smoke Monster, but actually the vast stories of electromagnetic energy the Island holds and that the Dharma Initiative was responsible for letting out? 'Cause that's where I'm 95% sure this is all headed. Jacob just needs the Man In Black there to keep that energy bottled in - after all he is still in some way a security system...
@Sagacious Penguin said...
I think Smokey giving Richard a dream sequence on the Black Rock would be a simpler explanation.
That sounds good SP! I forgot about how when she first arrived Richard saw her through a type of haze. I'm liking it!
OK... so i WAS repeating haha sorry people!
Still catching up too slowly...
@Benny: Nice insights in your various comments (as always)... I look forward to reading your blogpost. I'm with you on the Black Rock version of Isabella being conjured by Smokey and the one at the end with Hurley being her actual spirit or somesuch; I'd wondered if BR Isabella was just a vision, as Mr. Penguin suggests, or actually Smokey manifest, and decided not — until the Sagacious One pointed out that Smokey can probably only take the form of bodies of which he has physical possession, so with Isabella having died back home any appearance of her has to be actually manifested and/or "allowed" by the Island or a mind-altering trick of Smokey.
@SenexMacdonald:
How did the Black Rock end up in the Pacific?
I think it's the Island that ended up in the path of The Black Rock. 8^)
Hurley looking uncomfortable....and then angry at the last message he needed to tell Richard from Isabella.
I'm not sure that those instructions were actually part of Isabella's message; I got the sense that, with her gone, Hurley might've taken advantage of the situation and added that last part himself to get Richard to help.
VW: vationse — Clapping in the direction of Florida?
@JS: And what is the thing about talking before being stabbed?
No idea... Somehow it seems more formalized than just "Don't let the silver-tongued devil talk you out of it," Jacob talked to Ben before getting stabbed, though, and the knife seemed to work fine.
@rainyday: I love the Hellmouth analogy.
@Batcabbage: VW: sorestro - A minor member of the Sinestro Corps (Sinestro's younger brother, maybe?)
I think it's the one who's been sitting a little too long.
blam - I'm not sure that those instructions were actually part of Isabella's message; I got the sense that, with her gone, Hurley might've taken advantage of the situation and added that last part himself to get Richard to help.
Yes! I thought that too! Isabella never said it. Tricksy things on all sides are going on.
@Blam/Mr. Penguin/others:
Indeed. We have seen many different island-dreams/visons. So it's a definite possibility. As for manifestations, smokey only appeared as someone when he needed to:
Yemi to Eko
Christian to Claire/Locke
Alex to Ben
Locke to Ben/Richard/everyone
The fact that a body was present is not evidence that he cannot appear when a body is not there, just a matter of correlation/circumstances. We MAY have seen the first instance of a manifestation when a body is not present. We may have not. We only have correlation without theoretical or practical evidence.
THOUGH, on the other hand, there is the Others wanting the bodies. Perhaps for immunization (or whatever it might be called). This could be a hint of theoretical evidence.
As far as the Black Rock landing in the Pacific, I posited the theory that Magnus Hanso was touched/brought to the island by Jacob. And this also opens the door for the travels of the Captain's log as being a catalyst for others to come.
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Posted by Benny to Nik at Nite at March 25, 2010 3:07 PM
@humanebean: I'll just chug my electromagnetic wine (Manischevoltz, no doubt)
Oy... I'm just gonna pass over that one.
@JS: It is funny to me that we wonder how Richard lost his accent over 100 or so years, but no one questions why Jacob and MiB are speaking American English in the first place! :)
Indeed! This is in my notes. Until now my assumption had been that Jacob and Esau were supernatural enough to speak to each character in his or her native language, so it was strange to see Jacob engaging Richard's quickly improving English.
@SonshineMusic: I don't know if it means anything, I just find it interesting that there have been at least 3 specific times in this season alone where they have determined they have to go to the beach.
Hmm... I've been known to go to the beach when I need to figure things out, even if it's just in my mind, but you make a good point.
There is an idea floating around the ether that Jacob may be more sinister than we have come to believe. This idea rests on MiB's statement that "Jacob took my body."
Let's briefly consider this possibility and its implications. LOST is a story of the instability of identity, the manifestation of such through the literary device of doppelgangers. We have seen individuals mirror each other in terms of difference. Locke isn't exactly Locke unless contrasted with Jack, who in turn isn't exactly Jack without Locke. This sort of Derridiean sliding back and forth is echoed even in their names: Jack being the diminutive of John.
Still more evidence piles up with the idea of substitute or proxy. Locke is not only a substitute teacher, but acted as a substitute for Jack's father on Ajira Airlines. Sawyer becomes a proxy of Anthony Cooper, while Kate goes through so many identity shifts signalled by names, license plates and hair colouring her identity becomes blurred. Most conspicuous is the Ben/Henry Gale identity.
And then if that wasn't clear enough, we have the mirrors of Season 6. All along characters have been watching themselves in mirrors, and now with the sideworld, mirrors become of even more importance.
Take all these literary devices and add the enigma of "claimed". So far we have only understood claimed as a power attributable to MiB. But this begs the question, if MiB is the doppelganger of Jacob, why can Jacob not claim anyone? Perhaps it just doesn't work that way. Perhaps Jacob cannot claim anyone, but requires them to come to him through their free will. But isn't that touch of Jacob's akin to claiming?
Let's take MiB's words at face value. Say he is telling the truth, and once upon a time he had a body, lived and was loved. This raises an intersting possibility that MiB may himself once have been a candidate. Once long ago, Jacob touched MiB, marking him as a possible candidate. However, MiB didn't believe in the criteria of being a candidate. In other words, he was not a man of faith. From this point on we'd have to speculate even further.
If MiB were a candidate, something must have led to his loss of faith. As a consequence, Jacob revamped his plan, transforming MiB into the security system (the means of judgement of the unfaithful). But what of MiB's body? This is were ideas in the ether take over. Part of MiB's life lessons is to assume the form of other humans, to take from their experiences lessons about the goodness in humanity. To ensure this, Jacob would have literally taken/claimed MiB's body. So when looking at Jacob, are we looking at MiB's original body? Some people on the net think so. Until we get further information, this is all speculation. But it really would be a cool twist in the plot.
@Blam:"I'm not sure that those instructions were actually part of Isabella's message; I got the sense that, with her gone, Hurley might've taken advantage of the situation and added that last part himself to get Richard to help."
Could be Jacob gave Hurley that message. Just because we didn't see Jacob there, doesn't mean he wasn't there.
@Joan/Blam/Fred: But there are other segments we don't hear her say that Hurley says. And the whole discussion between Richard and Isabella was through Hurley, yet he doesn't speak, it's all fluent between Isabella and Richard - I know it was a technique to strengthen the emotional value and I'm all for it. But that's also the argument I use to show I believe she did say it.
Point is, would it have had as strong an impact on the viewer had we seen her say it to Hurley and then Hurley saying it to Richard? No. In my opinion, this was a technique to give the same reaction to the viewer that was given to Richard.
If we are not given any indication to the contrary (manipulation by Jacob/Hurley), then it stands to reason that it was Isabella. It would be consistent with the entire scene.
@Fred: Just because we didn't see Jacob there, doesn't mean he wasn't there.
Then, by that reasoning: Just because we didn't see [Isabella say those words], doesn't mean [she didn't].
In all cases, it keeps the speculating viewer in suspense AND offers delivery shock (as per my previous comment).
@ Benny: I agree with your reasoning regarding Isabella. On the matter of the MIB needing bodies to take the form of someone, while we may not have 100% concrete proof of this, I feel we have enough evidence to take that leap until proven incorrect.
First, the only realtime manifestations that have heavily been hinted at and/or confirmed as being him (Christian/Yemi/Locke) had their bodies either pointedly taken away (from coffin or drug plane) or very purposely brought back to the Island. Christian's body was seen in the Cabin at a time when "someone else" (MIB most likely) was using the Cabin. And if the MIB didn't need Locke's body to take his form, why did he have to wait to launch his crazy plan for Locke to die and then be returned to the Island.
Sure you can wheedle your way around these points if you really want to prove that he doesn't need bodies in order to take someone's form, but the show's complicated enough that we might as well go along with the evidence given to us this widespread and carefully.
Just my take on it anyway!
@Teebore:
So with Richard in place in his new job, he was able to keep MiB from corrupting/killing all the new arrivals, and the people that, with Richard's help, sided with Jacob, remained on the island and eventually grew to become the Others as he we know them.
Like you, I really want an explanation of the Others — and their conflict with the Army and Dharma; insight into Richard and Jacob's rationale for killing such trespassers would also be nice, especially if Jacob is responsible for everyone who finds their way to the Island — but the above is good insight. Question, though: Could MIB not kill Richard? One would've thought that Richard might be invulnerable, not just agelessly immortal, and we almost found out definitively when Daniel had him at gunpoint. Richard's plea for Jack to blow him up would seem to belie this, though, suggesting that he wouldn't die of natural causes but could perhaps be killed by outside means. Maybe it's just that MIB couldn't kill him since he was blessed by Jacob, or maybe Jack could kill him as a candidate, or maybe Richard can only be killed now that Jacob himself is dead, or maybe the dynamite wouldn't have worked and/or didn't work entirely because of Richard's blessing/curse and not because of Jack after all, but Richard sure seemed to think that it would have.
@Blam: Yeah, there's definitely some question as to why MiB didn't just kill Richard. Perhaps by allying himself with Jacob, the same rules which prevent MiB from killing Jacob directly extended to Richard?
@Mr Penguin: I definitely don't disagree with you. And I'm gonna mention a few more things, just because I have nothing better to do right now (not true).
He definitely had to wait because he could not risk to have Ben notice inconsistencies between him as Locke and the real Locke. But mostly, he needed to establish a faith in having Locke appear resurrected to Ben so Ben would have un-faltered trust in him. Just saying!
Here's another idea, though that goes against my overall original thoughts. What if smokey can only take the form of bodies who are DOA (Christian/Yemi/Locke)? This would suggest that the Alex manifestation may have been induced (as was Isabella) since it initiated physical contact with Ben, we have no obvious reason to believe it was or wasn't!
Great recap, Nikki! One quick response to this observation:
"Perhaps on the island the dead can cross over and actually reach out to their loved ones?"
Yeah, I think this is definitely possible with SOME dead people. Remember when Ben's mom visited him? I totally believe that was a real ghost and NOT a smoke monster-generated illusion, because around the same time lil' Ben meets Richard in the jungle, but Richard told Ben he wasn't "ready" to join his mother yet. Richard wouldn't have been there if the smoke monster were involved. I'm sure there are other examples of "real ghosts" like this one, but I'm blanking right now.
I’m still reading through all the comments. It takes way longer when I’m at work. Time to stop and hammer out a few responses.
@Benny and Teebore: I’ve been enjoying the heck out of your lively correspondence. I’m still on comments posted yesterday, but one thing sort of stood out for me. In all the discussion about the wine bottle and the cork, it finally dawned on me: Where did they get the wine? There must be a vineyard on the Island. It’s probably right next to the livestock pen where Jacob keeps his sheep and goats. Y’know, the ones he shears to get wool for spinning into the thread he uses in his tapestry weaving. And I was wondering where they got the glass bottle. Maybe it came from a ship that came to the Island. Either that, or there’s a glass foundry on the Island.
@Lisa (ufn): Thanks for passing along Nestor’s explanation of Ricardo’s accent. That was very interesting.
Several of you have been talking about the evil that’s being contained by the Island, but I guess I’m mostly responding to Teebore and Brandon here. This was a real puzzling concept for me at first, because the story of LOST is taking place on Planet Earth, the same fallen world that we inhabit, and everyone knows that evil is running rampant in every corner of the world. Then I realized that there’s a difference between the evil that causes every bad thing currently known to humankind, and DESTRUCTION OF THE WORLD evil. Now I get it.
Hmmm...my first bug with blogger. My comment disappeared. I shall try to recreate it:)
I am super-late to the game. I couldn't watch on Tuesday with the rest of you—so I had to stay away until I was all caught up.
Excellent episode! I loved the deviation from the norm, and I really enjoyed that Richard's backstory was just allowed to play out: uninterrupted. Fantastic. Breathtaking.
Nikki's write-up, and all of the fantastic comments pretty well sum it for me. Not a lot to add.
@Blam:
I think it's the Island that ended up in the path of The Black Rock.
I agree. We know that the island can move, and I feel as though The Island is not the kind of island that lays idly by in the ocean, waiting for people to come to it by chance. It's most definitely probably a case of The Island going to the people.
@Mythos: Speaking of young Ben and his mother, maybe that's why Richard protected young Ben so much - as both saw someone they cared for (Richard - Isabella, Ben - mommy) on the Island, he could relate to him.
Great point!
@Teebore:
Yes, I did question why everyone assumed that was The Black Rock in "The Incident". When you invoked Occam's Razor, though, after others identified the ship as a 19th-century galley, I gave in — it wasn't really important to me, to be honest, except in the context of Lost teaching us not to jump to conclusions.
What's funny is that I was so busy being surprised and, frankly, disappointed during "Ab Aeterno" that Richard did arrive on The Black Rock — as opposed to having been much more ancient — that I didn't even really think about the storm that landed it on the Island contradicting the calm seas and skies of "The Incident" and so possibly proving my point (as Genevieve pointed out).
VW: oxicev — The air-circulation system in NASA's Crew Exploration Vehicle, code-named Orion (look it up).
@Jenn:
my first bug with blogger
Let's hope it's your last!
It's most definitely probably a case of The Island going to the people.
Almost certainly maybe possibly could-be for sure.
VW: disero — A vocal critic of Cicero.
@Blam: For what's it worth (and depending on how much stock you put in such things) in the most recent podcast, Darlton more or less confirmed that the ship in "The Incident" was the Black Rock, saying that in and around the island, storms crop up fast and just because it was calm in "The Incident" doesn't mean that ship wasn't the Black Rock.
I'll also admit to being a bit disappointed that Richard wasn't older as well. I kept thinking back to how he told Jack he had lived longer than he could possibly imagine.
I dunno...maybe I'm just geek who knows too much about sci-fi, or maybe Richard thinks Jack has a poor imagination (possible...) but I find it quite possible to imagine a 150 year lifespan.
I mean, jeez, Buffy had boyfriends older than that... :)
@Teebore:
@Blam: Yeah, there's definitely some question as to why MiB didn't just kill Richard. Perhaps by allying himself with Jacob, the same rules which prevent MiB from killing Jacob directly extended to Richard?
I'm less surprised at the idea of MIB not being able to kill Richard than I am over Richard thinking that Jack could kill him, since he couldn't kill hiimself, which loops back around to the apparent fact that, as I said, he was immune to aging but not to fatal harm at the hands of others, meaning that MIB could've killed him after all — unless, as you say, either it's specifically MIB who couldn't kill him, as he can't kill Jacob directly, or his vulnerability was new in the wake of Jacob's "death". I wish it didn't feel so much like a plot hole, though.
VW: dincoat — A suppertime jacket.
@SonshineMusic:
This may have already been addressed, but... Hurley saw his "friend" Dave, from the institution, on the Island before leaving and returning. And of course he saw Charlie, Ana Lucia, et al. before being touched by Jacob in the cab. Jessica had a brilliant comment on Dave in reply to Nikki's post on "Dr. Linus".
VW: wedgiv — 1. Spring for the marriage ceremony. 2. ( usu. cap. WedgIV) Mr. Antilles' namesake three generations removed.
@Teebore:
For what's it worth (and depending on how much stock you put in such things) in the most recent podcast, Darlton more or less confirmed that the ship in "The Incident" was the Black Rock, saying that in and around the island, storms crop up fast and just because it was calm in "The Incident" doesn't mean that ship wasn't the Black Rock.
Hey, I didn't say I was right; you did. 8^)
@humanebean:
I mention this only because the usual representations of Tawaret emphasize her breasts as a symbol of the nurturing/childrearing role of the figure. Thoughts, anyone?
Mmm... I blame the FCC.
@Benny:
I've read every comment and have not read anyone talk about the significance of MIB breaking the wine bottle. Jacob tells Richard the cork/island is the only thing keeping evil in. MIB breaking the bottle is the realization to both him and the viewers that there is another thing keeping evil in: the bottle itself.
This is a great insight, but I can't believe it's just a matter of thinking outside the box. Jacob or whomever tasked him with containing the evil has to have had the same idea. And we still don't know what, exactly, is the cork as opposed to the bottle in terms of the Island, it's natural supernatural perimeter, the electromagnetic field, etc.
@JS:
Hurley spoke to dead people before Ajira. He saw someone in the cabin, he spoke with Dave, and off island he spoke to all kinds of dead people.
Of course I replied to SM on just this point right before reading this...
@Blam: I'm not letting you get to 7 comments in a row!
@latelylost:
the Magic Dagger of Don't Talk To Me First
Ha! I love this.
@Teebore:
Maybe the glass bottle is the ocean. Smokey's going to destroy the ocean! :)
We do have that weird thing with Smokey-as-Locke pulling a Mister Rogers with his shoes in the canoe. There was a submarine docked on the Island for an awful long time, though. And between rain and just, presumably, getting at least a little splashed in the canoe, we've had ample opportunity to get an "I'm mellll-tinnnnng!!!" moment and yet didn't.
@SonshineMusic:
Gah! I seriously need to read The Stand now. Stupid bookstore being sold out of a book I need to buy. Pete's sake.
Liiiiiiibraaaaaaaryyyyyyy!!!
VW: aversw — Swear in the direction of New Mexico.
Nikki - or anyone else - is there any chance you could post a quick rundown of who the candidates are and when they were touched by Jacob. I was thinking today that people were all holding items when they were touched by Jacob - items that carried huge meaning to them (Kate's lunchbox, Sawyer's letter, etc).
Did anyone else think that the wine was what gave Richard eternal life? Jacob and Richard both drank it, but Man-in-Black smashed it - maybe he didn't want eternal life because then he couldn't take over Locke's body?
@Alicia: truth is, we're not completely sure who the candidates are.
One of the Kwons or Kate might not be, while Lapidus might be, Ilana does not answer when Bram asks her if she thinks he might be. But here's the recap of what we do know.
4. Locke - fell from a building, did not have anything special with him [deceased];
8. Hurley - came out of jail, Jacob gave the wooden ankh in the guitar case (post crash);
15. Ford - at his parents' funeral, was handed a pen by Jacob;
16. Jarrah - was touched by Jacob post-crash when Nadia was killed. Was not holding anything [claimed];
23. Shephard - talked after Jack's difficult operation and talk with his dad, gave Jack an Apollo candy bar;
42.Kwon - gave them his blessings on their wedding day. No special items in sight, wedding rings perhaps?;
51. Austen - (scratched at the caves) was handed the lunchbox she attempted to steal and paid for by Jacob -- also 51 is not one of the numbers...
So that's the recap of what we know about who may or may not be a candidate!
verif: zyxbeadi -- really blogspot? really? I have to come up with something?
HEY!
What if... the island floating is the bottle being uncorked and the island having sunk is the bottle now being corked?
Thoughts?
I feel like I'm the only one dissapointed with this episode. I particulary HATED the final scene. It actually offended me as a viewer. What was so revealing about that discussion? It was a waste of scene. They didn't discuss anything that us as the audience and they as characters didn't already know, which would not have been that bad if the writers hadn't give them such redundant lines: talk about overexplanatory dialogue (I mean, Jacob even asks TMiB why he wanted to kill him!). It felt forced and out of context. Even the closure scene when TMiB breaks the wine bottle (wow, how symbolic!) felt cheap.
You mention:
• Richard is abandoned by the church and his religion as the priest walks out of the cell with his Bible and his hope of absolution. The organized church has failed him... the priest is merciless and unforgiving. But he still has his faith, regardless.
But, I would not call the priest merciless and unforgiving. He tells Richard that he can not do his penance because he is scheduled for execution, but then knowing that Richard speaks English, he goes out and finds a slave-master who will take Richard to the New World giving him the opportunity to do his penance. That seems very merciful to me. I really liked that in the priest.
@ Stephanie in AK : couldn't disagree with you more concerning the priest. Before the question of absolution comes up, Father Suarez notices Richard is able to read English. More likely than not, Father Suarez has been on the prowl looking for prisoners who could speak English, and could be sold to Magnus Hanso as slaves (witness the other prisoners with Richard). As others have noted, denial of absolution would have been against the Church. So Father Suarez's denial to absolve Richard of his sins ensured that Richard would beg to be let aboard the Black Rock. The whole scene has a feel of Dostoevsky to it.
Father Suarez is another instance of LOST's ambiguity towards organized religion. At some moments it seems to embrace it, with sympathetic characters like Eko and Rose and Charlie finding meaning in their beliefs. At other moments it seems to undercut religion. For instance, the Lamppost is hidden under a church. Or Eko never manages to complete his church both at home and on the island. What to make of it, I'm not sure just yet.
The dagger MiB gives Richard is Roman in style. Since things seem to go back and forth between people on the island, it's likely the dagger started with MiB. So MiB was likely from the Roman era, perhaps a legionnaire or centurion. Perhaps, like Dogen, MiB made a deal with Jacob that landed him on the island. If MiB is from the Roman era, then Jacob would be even older--ancient Greece, ancient Egypt?
@TeeborePersonally, I've long maintained that while Jacob may not be the good guy, Smokey isn't a good guy either. I just can't cotton to the idea that the guy who kills first and asks questions later is the "good" guy in an epic like this.
Maybe there is no good guy at all, but I have to believe Smokey is a bad guy. "Join me...or die!" is just so Dark Side.
This also seems to be the attitude of the Others. They frequently kill people whom they have no real quarrel with; and what was the issue that sparked a war between them and the DI?
The Others are expected to show blind obedience to Jacob, with no explanations offered for their orders. This seems very Dark Side to me - the whole thing is just too much like a cult to be something good. They even used brainwashing on Karl They steal children, lock people in cages, and generally behave in a most antisocial manner towards anyone who is not a part of their group...and sometimes even to people who are. Maybe you are right about there not being a "good guy".
@Benny - If it is not explicitly stated that the Black Rock is going to the New World, it is certainly implied.
Something that occurred to me at the beginning of the season, and now comes back to mind as a result of a couple of posts here:
How DO you sink an island? Islands are not land floating on top of the water; they are generally the tops of mountains, formed by vulcanism. A nuclear blast would not cause an island to sink.
The US detonated a number of nuclear weapons on islands in the South Pacific during WWII; those islands are still there. And even if you could vaporize enough land so that what was left was a good distance under water (as seen in the season premiere), everything would have been vaporized - you would not have seen the kind of stuff still intact that they showed. Also, to do such a thing would require a hell of a lot more megatonnage than would be produced by the nuclear trigger for a hydrogen bomb.
But this is, after all, the island...maybe it had something to do with the electromagnetic energy pocket. But an energy release of that magnitude still should not have left intact wreckage.
Oh, yeah - I realize that the island seems to float. But this is simply not possible. Land has a much higher density than water. And as much as the writers do seem to incorporate physics into the show, the idea that the island somehow violates the laws of physics in this fundamental way is stretching things a bit too far for me. I don't think that Daniel Faraday would approve ;)
@marebabe: Where did they get the wine? There must be a vineyard on the Island. It’s probably right next to the livestock pen where Jacob keeps his sheep and goats.
Well, there were cows and stuff out by Patchy and that station so maybe there was a vineyard there too?
RE: MiB not killing Richard. Maybe it wasn't so much that he couldn't kill him but that he didn't want to for some reason? Or perhaps the fact that he had left his offer wide open it created some sort of binding on him not to kill Richard since he had promised he could change his mind at any time? Or perhaps he was still hoping Richard would come back to him? Maybe he needs Richard for something specific? Maybe?
@Blam: Liiiiiiibraaaaaaaryyyyyyy!!!
Of course... it's just I work in a bookstore and thus am there much more frequently than I am able to get to the library. But I kind of didn't think about that, which makes me feel rather dumb since I do frequent the library. D'oh!
@Blam said...
Jessica had a brilliant comment on Dave in reply to Nikki's post on "Dr. Linus
oh Blam.... *tear*
@Teebore said...
I'll also admit to being a bit disappointed that Richard wasn't older as well.
I mean, jeez, Buffy had boyfriends older than that... :)
absolutely one of my biggest qualms with this episode...oooh 150years... whooppee! And thank you for making me think of Angelus! :)
@quark schiz I loved the last scene. Not everything that is said needs to advance the plot - sometimes we just get lovely scenes between characters. If we didn't, I think the show would be very boring.
@Rainier They steal children, lock people in cages, and generally behave in a most antisocial manner towards anyone who is not a part of their group...and sometimes even to people who are.
This is all just rampant speculation on my part, obviously, but I think the disconnect between Jacob's seeming benevolence (or "good" relative to Smokey) and the Others' somewhat, shall we say, draconian methods at times, might be explained by Jacob's unwillingness to intervene and tell people what's right and wrong.
So while the Others may have started as a group of people who allied themselves with Jacob ("good"), over time they developed their own culture, laws, policies, all in the name of Jacob but nothing was either denied or sanctioned by Jacob: because he doesn't want to tell them what's right or wrong.
So even if Richard is around to guide them closer to "Jacob's will" the Others are still suspect to human nature, and a charismatic leader with his own agenda, such as Widmore or Ben, could easily sway the Others towards his own interpretation of what Jacob wants from them.
Perhaps the Purge was initiated by the Others' leader at the time (Widmore?), claiming it was done in the name of Jacob (but Jacob never actually gave that order) and while Richard knew Jacob wouldn't like it, by Jacob's own admission, he couldn't step in and tell them it was wrong.
See also the way Ben's obsession with the fertility issue had Richard grooming Locke from behind the scenes to take over. Richard couldn't just say "Jacob doesn't care about the fertility issue", because that would be too direct, but he could work behind the scenes to slowly change the Others' course.
Bottom line, considering Jacob is against direct intervention, I think it's possible that there's a disconnect between what Jacob wants and what the Others (and specifically, their leaders with their own agendas) THINK Jacob wants.
And if the Others do something in Jacob's name that he disagrees with, like brainwashing or purging or being, in general, dicks, well, Jacob's not going to step in and tell them that. He wants them to figure it out themselves (of course, we could point out that such passivity in the face of such bad things is hardly "good", but that's another debate).
Let's just say I really hope we get some kind of "Others" episode that establishes their origins, clarifies their relationship with Jacob, and answers some of the smaller, lingering questions about them that remain.
@Stephanie in AK - You didn't mention the wad of money the priest received for doing this "service" for Richard? IMO, that was the priest's primary motivation.
@Blam - thanks for the compliment, but that little bon mot pales miserably compared to your hysterical VW translations.
@Rainier - They even used brainwashing on Karl
I think there was an extra level of urgency with Karl because Ben was terrified that Alex would get pregnant. But you're correct in that they did have this elaborate brainwashing mechanism set up and I doubt it was just for Karl. Plus if Ben was so terrified for Alex he could have just sent her off the island in the sub.
It wouldn't surprise me to find that a lot of Others are subjected to brainwashing. When the Losties arrived at the Temple, out pops Cindy, who identifies them and then doesn't blink an eye when Dogen orders them killed.
@Benny - great recap of the candidates. I'm beginning to believe that Sun did not flash because she is not the Kwon candidate, and that would leave Frank out as well. But Ilana was quite definite that there were still six candidates, even knowing that Locke was dead, though, so maybe Sun and Frank stayed with her for her protection.
@SonshineMusic - RE: MiB not killing Richard. Maybe it wasn't so much that he couldn't kill him but that he didn't want to for some reason? Or perhaps the fact that he had left his offer wide open it created some sort of binding on him not to kill Richard since he had promised he could change his mind at any time? Or perhaps he was still hoping Richard would come back to him? Maybe he needs Richard for something specific? Maybe?
I like this idea a lot. I was thinking that perhaps Jacob's touch conferred the hands off instead of candidancy. But we've seen Smokie be very random in his selections. Allowing Locke, Ben, etc. to live but killing Montand, Nadine, and Norris when they'd barely set foot on the island.
@quark schiz: What was so revealing about that discussion?
Let me give you an answer, this one of the first times that we are given answers that we KNOW are the truth. There have been many lies said on-screen about what is happening. The discussion between those two has no reason to be lies since they both know what/where they are. They didn't discuss anything we didn't believe/expect, they just CONFIRMED some of it.
As for the final scene, you'd be surprised how may viewers didn't catch the symbolism of chaos, most just caught anger.
@Fred: Nice touch on the priest.
We've seen a lot of imagery as they relate to Abrahamic/Dharmic/Hellenitic/Roman/Egyptian mythologies, this may suggest either (for lack of better words) an indifference or amalgamation and how actions must not be treated within just one set of rules and beliefs but rather through another, overall objective, set of mores. IT also leads credence to the idea of free-will where your own actions are more significant and impacting than what your stated beliefs and destiny.
@Rainier: I disagree on the 'New World'. Just listening to that scene, Whitfield has an intriguing intonation on 'New World', as if if was an odd connotation for the Americas, which it obviously was not at the time. The whole sequence has a whole 'let Richard infer the Americas' but 'really imply something different, more recently discovered'. Rewatching it daily reinforced my interpretation of the scene.
As for the island: the writers use the loose definition of 'a segment of land surrounded by water' to call it 'island'. No one has ever claimed it to be an island from a geological stand point. It could be a giant ship looking like an island, or giant floating temple... who knows, still one of the mysteries. You destroy any propulsion/floating engine and sink it does!
...As for violating the laws of physics... we've seen it already does by MOVING THROUGH TIME, and being TIME-LAGGED with the outside world. This is definitely not a geologically-formed island and some laws of physics are already violated. And if we accept many of the religious and cultural mythologies presented, there's certainly reason to believe that it could defy the commonly understood laws of physics.
Rainier, there is a theory on Lostpedia that the island is floating, because it is being held up by the electromagnetic energy. And that whatever happened at the end of The Incident caused that energy to disappear, letting the island sink.
Teebore, great explanation on how the Others run things; it's never been clear to me just how much Richard is following Jacob's orders v. following the Others' current leader's orders.
@Teebore: Widmore was leader at the time, but it's not sure he was present when the purge took place.
I like your Interpretation of the hostility. Let me add one aspect to it as well. Jacob tells Richard his role is to keep the darkness inside the bottle. Ultimately, Richard may attempt to do so AT ALL COSTS. This probably resulted in some drastic measures occasionally being used.
Remember the truce with DHARMA? I would think it had something to do with being too engaged in drilling/excavations so as to prevent any 'incidents'.
@Susan: The problem with that theory (as I've pointed out in Dr. Linus and Recon) is that Ben and Roger are alive and mention the possibility that they could have stayed on the island and become something else.
If the incident destroyed the EM energy and caused the island to sink, then at least Roger (and I do believe Ben) would not have been able to escape except with a slow gradual sink. But they certainly would not have been able to stay for an extended period of time as suggested in Dr. Linus.
humanebean: I think I understand now: Jacob is just trying to protect the world from Secondhand Smokey! HAHAHAhahahaha ....
... anyone? Bueller? *sigh*
LOL!! Oh you... ;)
@Benny If the incident destroyed the EM energy and caused the island to sink, then at least Roger (and I do believe Ben) would not have been able to escape except with a slow gradual sink. But they certainly would not have been able to stay for an extended period of time as suggested in Dr. Linus.
Unless, of course, the changes in the Sideways reality reach further back than the Incident (as has been suggested/theorized by some).
So maybe Roger and Ben left BEFORE the Incident in the Sideways reality, and a few years later, the Incident (or some variation thereof) destroyed the pocket of energy keeping the island afloat.
@Susan it's never been clear to me just how much Richard is following Jacob's orders v. following the Others' current leader's orders.
Oh, it's never been terribly clear to me, either, or anyone else, I imagine.
It's one of those things I'd like to see explained further, but I have a feeling, in the end, we'll be left using Richard's conversation with Jacob in this episode to imply/deduce for ourselves (as we're doing now) the extent of Richard's involvement with the day-to-day doings of the Others and their leader du jour.
@Teebore: Agreed, but then it wouldn't be the events at the end of The Incident that ultimately caused the island to sink (as posited by the lostpedia theory) since these events would not be in 'synch' with the sideways world!
I'm still looking for my more extensive post on that... may have to repost here. It basically said that by assuming X you could disprove X, showing inconsistencies within the theory itself. I believe X was the bomb causing the island to sink.
Ultimately, is the changes go further back than 1977, then what we see in 1977 is not consistent with the sideways 1977 and therefore not the cause of the island having sunk in the sideways world.
---wrong: blogspot was telling me 421... weird---
@Benny Agreed, but then it wouldn't be the events at the end of The Incident that ultimately caused the island to sink (as posited by the lostpedia theory) since these events would not be in 'synch' with the sideways world!
Agreed as well. If the changes to the Sideways world extend beyond the time of the Incident, then the details of the Incident as we know them are subject to change as well.
So If the destruction of the energy pocket is what sinks the island in the sideways world, then the destruction of said pocket would have happened differently than what we saw in "The Incident".
@Teebore: I have a GREAT theory mulling in my head right now - maybe I've had too much mulled wine - but I think it's AWESOME.
Anyways, I'll write some stuff up, put it on my blog and highlight it here.
Should be up by the end of the day... I'm blown away myself!
OK, here's something I just thought of and haven't seen here yet. Does a person have to die OFF ISLAND to be taken over by Smokey? Christian, Yemi, and Locke all arrived on the island already dead -- and MiB (or whomever) went to a lot of trouble to get Locke off the island to die and come back.
@JenniferS: Does a person have to die OFF ISLAND to be taken over by Smokey?
OOoohhhh! I like this theory. IF most of the apparitions are the same then this would explain the first Isabella, Kate's horse, Ben's mom, etc. I definitely want more information on the rules to the appearances and apparitions and figments that we have seen.
@JenniferS/Sonshine: I mentioned that a few comments ago and one BIG wrench in that theory is the Alex apparition - but she could have been a different manifestation.
But to Sonshine's point, it still seems likely that a BODY is required. This would suggest that Isabella was dream-induced/hallucination and that Kate's horse and Ben's mom were visions.
On Ben's mom, she also had to cross the sonic fence, which smokey couldn't do, form that alone I don't think she's smokey.
I'd say instead that Ben was once a candidate and could see her, as Jack saw Christian, Kate her horse, Hurley a bunch of people, Sawyer/Locke the kid.
@Benny:
If we are not given any indication to the contrary (manipulation by Jacob/Hurley), then it stands to reason that [Hurley's last comment to Richard also came from] Isabella.
The "indication" to me was inherent in the scene: Isabella had disappeared by the time Hurley added this.
Me:
Jessica had a brilliant comment on Dave in reply to Nikki's post on "Dr. Linus "
Jessica:
oh Blam.... *tear*
Me again:
Don't get all Jack on me, girlfriend!
Seriously, though, I'd like to repost what you wrote because it's more pertinent to this discussion and just as brilliant:
"I read somewhere that Libby's husband was named David. This got me thinking when we've been discussing what apparitions are really ghosts, MiB, or Jacob, that maybe Hurley's Dave wasn't just a throwaway. What if Dave was really Libby's dead husband and when he came to Santa Rosa to haunt/look after her, he met this guy Hurley who he could actually communicate with? Then, when Hurley and Libby start hanging out on the island, Dave shows up and tries to convince Hurley to throw himself off a cliff?"
VW: LoToz — Anti-theft device for your feet.
@Blam: bah! projection. From your reasoning:
1. We didn't hear Hurley say what Isabella was saying to Richard. So this means that Isabella and Richard were talking directly to each other.
2. We didn't see Isabella ask why he had buried her chain. So she didn't really ask.
Now I realize this is likely one of those likely unresolved 'interpretation' questions but, to me she didn't disappear, it was a camera pan changing the perspective of the viewer.
-Prior to the emotional dialogue, we see Richard standing with Isabella and dialoguing.
-[dialogue]
-Pan behind Hurley and we see Richard stand alone.
-[ask if she's gone, yes but she said one more thing]
This is analoguous to the pan in Sayid's flashback where we went from Arabic to English speech, a change in perspective to help/play with the viewer.
When you hear Hurley says "She said you have to stop the man in black, stop him from leaving the island. She said if you don't, [we all go to hell]."
This is the only time Richard hears those words. It would have been redundant for the viewer to hear them twice and would not have had the same delivery shock as the single utterance had. This technique was to put us in Richard's perspective - hence the camera pan!
This is is just stage play and is quite consistent with what they've done in the past.
The only thing that will EVER tell me it was Jacob is if Hurley or Jacob ever admit to it.
Where you see 'she disappeared' I see 'change in perspective'. You say tomato and I say winter squash!
Some general thoughts:
I'm not sure why Crazy Richard (mmm... peanut butter...) wants to die. Either [1] he's reverted to believing Smokey that the Island is Hell, in which case we don't even know what "dying" would mean, or [2] he hasn't but, given that recent events have caused him to shed whatever peace Jacob and life on the Island provided, he believes that Hell is still waiting for him since he was never absolved of his sin. Maybe he's come around to no longer believing that he would go to Hell for the accident of the doctor's death, given his penitence, or maybe he doesn't think that whatever Hell awaits could be worse than the perdition he's suffered for 150 years and would be a welcome change of pace, but it doesn't quite add up for me.
I was also frustrated by Richard's insisting that he doesn't know what Ilana's talking about. Jacob may be cryptic at times, but I have a feeling that the explanation here is more in the direction of Richard not wanting to share than them all needing to put their heads together and figure out what it is that Richard doesn't realize he's supposed to tell them to do. And if that's the case there's just no reason for Richard to keep them from pursuing their plans, no matter how nihilistic he might have felt. He doesn't say they'll make things worse, remember, just that Jacob was a humbug and nothing matters anymore.
How long has Jacob been expecting to be killed? These plans involving candidates to replace him seem to have been in motion for a while. Has this always been part of the natural order of things? Does he need to die and be succeeded to fulfill some prophecy or prove something to the Man in Black or make the Island stronger, in some echo of Jesus or Aslan or Obi-Wan? Is he just being careful?
More to come...
Hey, I finally made it through all the comments. Like Blam, I’ve been desperately behind, but without the desperation. I’m handling it remarkably well. :) I read a comment addressed to me two days after it was posted, and that’s fine. I only hope that you all everybody will check in occasionally after Friday when the comments slow down, because I hate the idea of posting something that will never be read.
Speaking of lots of comments to get through, every now and then I’ll glance at the comments on other sites, usually out of morbid curiosity. For instance, I recently saw a Doc Jensen post with well over 2,000 comments under it. But really, it doesn’t take long to read 2-10 word comments. Things like “You suck!” and “So’s the horse you rode in on!” I prefer the scholarship, wit and niceness I find here.
And Blam, you’re one of the reasons I keep a dictionary by my computer at all times. Today it was “gerund”. Keep ‘em coming! :)
It’s interesting, I’ve never in my life seen a single minute of “Ghost Whisperer”, so I have no complaint about the ending of this episode. It was new and fresh for me.
Marebabe: because I hate the idea of posting something that will never be read.
I always subscribe to the comments, so they get emailed to me. So I read the comments no matter how old they are! :)
For instance, I recently saw a Doc Jensen post with well over 2,000 comments under it. But really, it doesn’t take long to read 2-10 word comments. Things like “You suck!” and “So’s the horse you rode in on!”
It seems like the more traffic a sight gets, the more trolls and troglodytes it gets. I don't know what it is about newspaper and magazine websites, but they seem to attract a lot of people who just want to tell other people how much they suck.
I too am much more appreciative of blogs like these.
@Blam said...
Don't get all Jack on me, girlfriend!
LOL! Awesome!
I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on this though... it kinda got lost in the mix!
Right there with Teebore on both counts. I read all the comments and I prefer the community we have here.
In reading the comments, there's a discussion about the Isabella/Richard/Hurley scene: Was it REALLY Isabella who told Hurley that last bit about stopping the Man in Black?
My opinion is that Hurley got that part from Jacob. My reasoning:
1) Richard asked, "Is she gone?", and Hurley confirmed that she was indeed gone. Then,
2) A really sneaky look came over Hurley's face as he added (paraphrasing) "Oh, yeah, one more thing...") And,
3) Isabella's entire conversation with Richard was to reassure him of her love, and then she disappeared. Why would she then tack on a "BTW, you need to stop the MIB" ?? It seems totally out of character for Isabella to say that. However, Jacob, on the other hand, is ALL about stopping the MIB. And we KNOW that he and Hurley are "best buds".
So, IMO, Hurley is passing on Jacob's message, only telling Richard the message is from Isabella in order to better move him to action.
Hurley "Scooby-Doo'd" Richard, methinks.
@DonnaS: There is indeed a debate and only an affirmation from the involved parties (Hurley/Jacob) will confirm any theory.
You can't say that 'the message' was out of character since there is no 'character' to base this on, we've only seen her talk with Richard then. In fact, THAT could have been out of character.
I'm not trying to argue either way in this post, just saying yes there's a debate and that I don't think we can use the 'out of character' argument.
Benny...Just saying that, considering that the whole rest of the conversation was about her love for Richard, any additional instructions about the MIB seem out of character for her.
Gotta run!
ON ISABELLA
Question: why was Isabella talking to Hurley and asking him to follow Richard?
It certainly seemed (to me) like she was reclaiming his faith in her and be more open to accepting her message. She knew he'd listen more if she had a heart to heart prior to asking her request than if Hurley had asked him outright.
p.s.: she could have told Hurley at the beach, we didn't see all of the conversation, that could be why she sent him after Richard.
-----
I wonder if we'll have a similar discussion next week!
FLASH SIDEWAYS THEORY
The theory of the bomb creating the flash-sideways was brought up several times and I've attempted to disprove it.
Here is not only what I call proof its inaccuracy, but I also present an alternative theory.
Hopefully you'll enjoy: http://tinyurl.com/SidewaysTheory
Oi I'm so late. How do you subscribe to comments in email.
Anyway,
@Blam, et al - I am still questioning the instructions on the no talking before stabbing, and also stabbing with the special knife. I do not know if there is any validity to those instructions since, a-they were given by both sides, and b-Jacob got stabbed with an “un”-special knife after a whole conversation.
ALSO He defended himself against Richard, an action which contradicts his whole "I cannot intervene" mantra, but not against Ben, where he seems to take it to the ultimate degree. We have seen him push/influence people. So there is some contradictory information here - surprise.
At this point, the real mystery for me is why these candidates, why now, and what is going to happen in the next 9 hours to bring this centuries long battle to "the end". It cannot be just good and evil, or even fate versus free will. I do not believe Jacob is JUST bringing people to the island to prove they can choose good. Why would that matter? Would it change the nature of the black smoke, making it/him inert, or repent, or whatever change needs to happen? I do not even understand how MiB can be killed if there is no body. Are we supposed to believe that "malevolence" will be neutralized? And who does Jacob take his orders from anyway.
I think I woke up angry today and am taking my frustration out on Lost theories. Help me, if you are still out there….
@Benny – re: island being the cork, etc. - have you seen this fan art? http://mbradyclark.tumblr.com/ . Also, “re-watching it daily” – I need to do that too.
@Blam – thanks for re-posting what Jessica wrote on Hurley’s Dave being Libby’s David, and encouraging Hurely to off himself due to jealousy, I missed that.
@Teebore & @Jessica – I was hoping for at least 1,000 years old….
@Benny – I think us seeing Isabella and Richard “talking to each other” was a story telling device so we didn’t have to listen to Hurley repeat everything that Isabella said. Richard had to ask Hurley if she was gone. OR I may have watched one too many Ghost Whisperer episodes. OOPs I just read the rest of your post, I agree with you. And @Donna S – yes, I think that was a Hurley add. Scooby-doo’d indeed.
@JS: After typing your comment and entering the word verification, there's a box (beneath where you "choose your identity") that you can click ("Send follow up emails to" or something to that effect) that will ensure all subsequent comments make it your mailbox.
It does make keeping up with things much easier!
@JS: Had not seen that. Thanks, it's pretty cool.
Haha.. yeah, I wasn't too serious about the Isabella/Richard dialogue.
I know it was a story telling device, my point was that not seeing Isabella tell Hurley that line was also a story telling device resulting in the audience receiving the same shock as Richard at receiving said message.
I actually just sent an email to the Lost podcast on whether we'll have an answer or if it will be all left to interpretation.
A seminal image that emerged out of this episode was the man in black. Three in fact. The doctor. The priest. And MiB. Each has an association with power, or religion. Then I wondered have we seen men in white? Yes, we have. Jack and his father are dressed in white coats. The other white coats would be scientists, such as Juliet. So white is associated with science, or knowledge of life. So we have a simple equation:
Black= power, religion
White=life, science.
On the island, white is associated with Jacob, a figure of faith. This is the inverse of the of-island world. So in fact the island is Alice's Wonderland, a mirror image where what was once up is now down. White is Black, and Black is White. The dead exist, and probably are the whispers. The living think of themselves as dead. Jack said in the opening Season, we all died 3 days ago. Even Hurley at one point said they were all dead. So in such a topsy-turvy world, we shouldn't immediately assume white=the good side; nor that black=the bad side. In the end we may discover the fight between Jacob and MiB is nothing, as between the Red Queen and the White Queen.
@Benny @Teebore - Thanks. Nothing on the ultimate mystery? I thought you guys would be good for some theories :)
@JS: A few ideas but there are not enough ways to connect them or there are too many inconsistencies between them to elaborate a GUTL (Grand Unified Theory of Lost).
@Fred: Interesting thought on the imagery of colours. Let me just throw an idea and let me know what you think. Jacob is being followed as faith, but he insists on humans following their own choices without intervention.
Often we associate free-will with science and predetermination (MIB=precondition to evil) with religion - not necessarily evil.
While Jacob might be seen as a religious figure by his followers, could he not be someone who tries to defend the 'science/rational thought' side of things?
If we take his words at face value that is. Then:
Jacob => defending free will => science => white
MiB => preconditioned => religon/faith => black.
It's a far reaching extension, but thoughts?
@benny: yeah, science could be seen popularly as supporting free-will. Part of the social narrative of science is how it has freed us from the chains of religious dogmatism. I don't know if the showrunners are going with this idea. (Actually it is wrong. Science more or less tells us things are predetermined. That's what a lot of people took from Newtonian science, and why they tried to reapply it to social sciences--ergo Positivism. For more on this see J. Richard Gott's equation which is an extension of the Carter Catastrophe predicting the extinction of humans).
But let's stick with the story. Is predetermination part of religion? If your a Calvinist, you bet. The "elect" get to go to heaven, the rest don't. Is that akin to Jacob's candidates? Maybe. But there is also in religion the concept of free-will (Erasmus argued such against Luther). Afterall, without free-will, God would be cruel and capricious in sending those to Hell whom he created knowing they were predestined for Hell.
But I like the idea that Jacob may be supporting the idea of free-will. In other words, Jacob is an Erasmian (or Pelagian) follower, rather than Augustinian or Calvinist. Pelagian's heresy was that one might acheive grace through one's actions. Richard's belief he can work off his sin.
But I have another view of Jacob. He is a Nietzschian. In true LOST form, Nietzsche called free will the "highest power of fate." He believed that free-will belongs to the universe of determinism, and consciousness could liberate itself from the world. Free consciousness experiences the world as a struggle to free itself from. Very much like Locke's discussion of the moth, that he could liberate it, but then it would not survive. Jacob's hands-off approach resembles the relationship between the teacher and the pupil. The teacher does not assist, but allows the pupil to struggle, and only thereby come to real knowledge (I had teachers who's philosophy was either sink or swim--needless to say, many math courses taken twice over).
If we follow Nietzsche then we may have to think of Jacob as Zarathustra. It is not that coming to the island we have inherent in us the "good", but that through struggle on the island we achieve the "good". I see the "good" not as moral, but a higher individual, a being that acts for a future being that is beyond humanity. In this sense, the MiB does not believe such a future exists.
Great Episode.Isn;t is amazing how Tenerife looked soooo much like Hawaii !
Anyway question :
Jacob is bringing people to the island to prove that 'man' is no corrupt..but why ? by doing this he is taking a risk that Smocke may escape the island. If he did nothing then surely Smocke would be stuck forever and the island would be secure ?
Also at the end Smocke smashes the bottle ..does this signify that the other way of escaping the island is not to kill Jacob but to destroy the Island (hence why we see it under the ocean at the beginning of S6) ????
Am I the only Lost Soul out here who experienced an epiphany regarding the fact that Ab Aeterno stood on it's own merit, totally out of the box, a Play within a Play? A classic example of that ploy would be Bernard Shaw's "Don Juan in Hell." As I remember it, Shaw creates a dream sequence (within "Man and Superman") by taking the Don Juan legend into new territory, engaging the Devil and Don Juan (and a couple of other characters, including one of Don Juan's conquests and her father's statue,) in a marvelous philosophical debate concerning the merits of hell vs the boredom of heaven. Shaw doesn't take the complex and multi tiered subject of Don Juan lightly. In his preface letter to Walkley. Shaw expressed his opinion that Mozart was the last person to take on the subject of Don Juan with any degree of competency, and says his own version of Don Juan is "a man who, though gifted enough to be exceptionally capable of distinguishing between good and evil, follows his own instincts." Jacob? Jack? Locke? Sawyer? The man in black? All of the above? Or is this character description one that defines the last remaining Candidate? The hero with a thousand faces: the last man, or woman, standing. (As I recall Shaw explores the fact women are the life givers, and as such should be considered superior beings.)
OK, now I'll have to find the entire script, and read it all over again.. this is getting way juicy. Lost coming up with a perfectly timed, perfectly rendered play within a play ...how much better can it get? It could be yet another riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.. But this close to "The End"? I don't think so. I think we're in for a wild ride to the finish. And I don't think the Devil wins.
Every time the writers of Lost do a blink and nod to the collective conscious ( or collective unconscious) we get closer to what Stephen Hawkings called a glimpse into the mind of God. To me, whether it's a game or a mystery or a circus come to town, Lost is a mirror masquerading as a challenge.
@patricia: hmmmmm.... intriguing. but which part are you calling the 'play within a play' exactly. Was it a specific scene/sequence or the entire episode a full length flashback?
I just want to be clear so I can share in your reflection!
Thanks.
I know i'm pretty late in the game but that was such an amazing episode-probably one of my new all time favourites- that i just had to comment. And it wasn't just me, I had an anti-lost sister watching it with me and she stopped complaining about two minutes in, watched the rest in silence and told me it was pretty good for Lost. Thats what I call success!
Great re-cap Nikki, and it took a while but the comments have some really interesting theories.
@M9 EGO
I think you're right, that if escaping the island means destroying it, then the AU with the island on the bottom of the ocean isn't what would have happened if the H-bomb went off, but what happened when another enormous event happned, like Jacob being killed and defeated which would allow the man in black to escape. Maybe the AU isn't in fact an alternate universe, but what will happen at the end of the
series if the MIB escapes and time is reset with Jacob never existing. Maybe the reason that
Jacob doesn't want him to leave is becasue if he does, he will stop existing and time will progress differently, without everyone ending up on the island. That would mean that the flash sideways that we seeing are in fact what will happen to the losties without Jacobs 'touch' or influence. Whether they act and react differently to the same situations will be teh MIB's ultimate victory
in proving Jacob wrong about the true nature of humans.
'If he did nothing then surely Smocke would be stuck forever and the island would be secure ?'
Good point. I think the fact that he does take that chance and bring people to the isalnd means that by proving him wrong, it will somehow benefit him. If he acheives his goal of proving him wrong, maybe Jacob will get the only thing he wants, the love and respect of the MIB. That's assuming the theories that they are brothers or father and son are correct.
I hope that made some sort of sense!
@Teebore: And if the Others do something in Jacob's name that he disagrees with, like brainwashing or purging or being, in general, dicks, well, Jacob's not going to step in and tell them that. He wants them to figure it out themselves (of course, we could point out that such passivity in the face of such bad things is hardly "good", but that's another debate).
Well, yes. This really gets to the heart of the debate about free will, and it is a problem for religions in general, not just strange little cults. no religion is free of this difficulty; the intent and wishes of the worshiped is often at odds with the actions of the worshipers.
@Benny: My point about the island not being able to float was admittedly not a very smart one. Most days, I really do know better vis a vis what is possible and not on Lost (namely, pretty much everything and almost nothing, respectively.) But the writers do seem to try to inject some science into the plot some of the time. And I have seen physicists postulate ideas about how time travel might be possible...
My posts on this episode have not been particularly smart. It's been a bad week, I have been running on very little sleep, and my brain seems to have turned to cheese curds some time ago. Sorry 'bout that.
Benny To me, the entire episode, the tale of Richards episodic journey, was a play within a play. And I had an instant connection with Don Juan in Hell on that level..Connecting the dots between Lost and Don Juan in Hell (and maybe even Man and Superman, not sure I want to dive into that one yet) was also a bonus delight. I'm always amazed at the literary connections , let alone the sociological, philosophical, artistic, scientific (ad infinitim) connections the writers draw upon.. It's as if the writers exist in the collective mind. Or the other way around.. I'm on an iPod now, awkward. But will back to this subject if it resonates with you, too? Believe me, making the creative leap to Don Juan in Hell sent shivers up my spine... Didn't know if I was alone in this observation .. ?
One thing I do not understand is why are there so many candidates from the same time period? Did Jacob "see" that Ben would kill him, so he then recruited Ilana to protect the candidates? What is the time frame with the "candidates" and Jacob's death?
So you are telling me that the candidates are from 2004 until now only? What about all those other years? Also, so Jacob could leave the island and time travel so time travel had nothing to do with the Dharma initiative? The Dharmas just "found" it? How did they equate magnetic fields with time travel? Daniel's book? That is like saying I read my diary from 1982 and now I have invented space travel. The answer I need is why all Oceanic 6 are important and no one else from the time of the Black Rock to current has ever been important. (except Rousseau, but was she a candidate?) I love all of them (especially Jack and Sawyer) but are they really that important? No one has been important until then? I also think this because their "candiate numbers" are so low. Or are they re-used? Could someone from 1940 been number 4, etc?
Just for fun... I received a birth announcement from some old friends, and the name they chose for their daughter was... drumroll... Ilana! I got chills! Beautiful name and they are not LOST fans, so I saw it as a sign!
A quick pointer about the mythology surrounding Mt. Teide, in Tenerife. The Devil in the guanche –the original inhabitants of the island- myths was called Guayota (a big black dog). It was imprisoned in the Teide, after the tried to kidnap the sun.
The Wikipedia entry on Guayota has a few more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guayota
Actually, probably all volcanoes ha similar stories attached to them.
Y'all can stop speculating about whether the Isabella who spoke to Richard through Hurley was MIB or not. Remember Ilana said that since Jacob was dead he was stuck in Locke's form and could no longer shape-shift. So it coudn't have been him anyway.
I would like to know when Isabella got a chance to shop in the same clothing store Richard has been to and get those nice contemporary duds!
@catherinelavalle: I think you're mixing two discussions.
Discussion 1. Isabella inside the ship just after it crashed. Was it Richard hallucinating, having a vision or MIB posing as her?
Discussion 2. When Isabella is talking through Hurley to Richard. Was it her of Jacob who said he had to stop the man in black?
Was it her [or] Jacob who said he had to stop the man in black?
Actually, I think it was Hurley adding that on his own, nudging him towards what Ilana had said about Jacob telling her that Richard would know what to do next, and not Hurley directly parroting Jacob — an important distinction on one hand, but admittedly irrelevant to the argument of whether it was still Isabella's spirit speaking or something that Hurely tacked on.
@Lisa(until further notice): Of course, Alpert should be first, but I think of him so much as Richard (Ricardo), that when I was compiling my list, I could only think of him by his first name...ike Cher or Madonna. OOPS!!
Hmmm... I might just put Richard first whether in alphabetical order or not. He sure is purty.
@ Gracie: yep, you got the palatableness thing right. I wouldn't kick any of them off, either.
OOPS... that was supposed to go on 6.10. My bad. I can't delete it or I would.
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