This week's episode was awesomesauce, to quote a friend of mine. I must have said, "I LOVE THIS SHOW!" four times during the broadcast. But let's get on to business.“Is that a runway??”
So there’s a runway on the Hydra island, meaning that Ajira 316 was always meant to land there, and the Others somehow knew it. To refresh your memory, in case you don’t remember the runway before, if you recall Kate and Sawyer when they were locked in the polar bear cages, during the day they were forced to do manual labour, putting rocks into wheelbarrows and clearing a particular spot. Later, in the season 3 finale, Sawyer walks across the island with Juliet and asks what the Others were forcing them to make:
SAWYER: So, when you pulled us out of those polar bear cages and put us on the chain gang, what the hell you have us breaking all those rocks for anyway?
JULIET: We were building a runway.
SAWYER: Runway, for what?
JULIET: [Turns to him] The aliens.
[She smirks]
JULIET: I don't know what for, do you think they told me everything?
Apparently it wasn’t for the aliens, but for another plane that was going to drop out of the sky three years later.
RADZINSKY!!!!!!:Oh my god, I was hyperventilating when Jin tore off in the jeep to find Radzinsky. My arms flew up in the year and I yelled, “I’ve been waiting for this for three years!!!!” I swear every 6 episodes or so I say, “Could this person be Radzinsky?” For those readers who, like my husband, went, “Uh... who the hell is Radzinsky?” here’s the quick refresher: We saw Desmond arrive on the island in 2001. He was pulled into the Swan station by Kelvin Inman, who told him about his previous station-mate, Radzinsky. Radzinsky killed himself, and he points to a giant bloodstain on the ceiling of the station and says that’s all that’s left of Radzinsky. He tells Desmond that he took the body outside and buried it, but he had to do it really quickly because he had to be back at the Swan to push the button every 108 minutes. Radzinsky is the originator of the blast door map that Locke found in “Lockdown” and that we saw Kelvin working on, and Kelvin also said that the pieces of the Dharma orientation films were missing because Radzinsky had edited them. Now we know that Radzinsky was some Paul Giamatti lookalike who actually designed the Swan station. Because he’s still working on the model in this episode, it probably wasn’t completed until the late 70s or early 80s. It has a distinct 60s/70s feel, but the design could be earlier because maybe Radzinsky had been on the island a long time already, so his sensibilities were toward designs like the other stations. In this episode, he’s working at the Flame station (where we later see Mikhail).
“We’re gonna name him Ethan”
The baby’s name is Ethan! Big points go to “theothers108,” one of my readers, who predicted that one early in the comments for “LaFleur.” What I loved best about that theory is that in “A Tale of Two Cities,” when we see Juliet at her book club, there’s an elderly woman there named Amelia. She talks to Ethan with some authority, like he’s her son. Amelia = Amy. What caused some other readers to disagree, however, is that Ethan definitely looks in his early 40s in 2004, and certainly not 27, which is what he would be if he’d been born in 1977. Could he have time traveled, aged some more, and then bounced back? In any case, when I rewatch season 1 and see Charlie kill Ethan, that scene is going to be a lot sadder for me, now that I saw his birth.
Possibly the greatest line EVER on Lost:
Chang to Jack: “Based on your aptitude test, you’ll be doing janitorial work.” HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Score one for Sawyer!
There’s a new sheriff in town...
The tables have officially turned. Jack was always the guy in charge, and Sawyer was always made to feel useless. Now Sawyer’s the guy calling the shots, and Jack has to listen to him. Sawyer reminds Jack of the many casualties due to Jack’s bad leadership (ouch). In the first two seasons, Jack was the reluctant leader. I said it many times in my books that he had the mantle of leader foisted upon him, and was uncomfortable in the role. But he took it, and by the third season, he was the alpha male of the group and refused to let anyone else have their say. To this day he believes that he got everyone off the island, and apparently none of the rest of the Oceanic Six had anything to do with their own rescue. Sawyer, on the other hand, quietly lived under the radar of the survivors. He was the guy reading the heavy literary tomes, but he had the redneckness about him that made others assume he was some sort of buffoon. But Sawyer’s ignorance is all an act. He’s the more methodical leader, the one who started with four other people with him, and has only lost one, in three years. He figured out how to get the Oceanic 3 into the compound without anyone suspecting anything. He’s weaseled his way into the DI and is head of security. Sawyer is a smart man, and oh, what an amazing feeling it must be for him to have this showdown with Jack now after all these years of remembering how Jack treated him. He’s been waiting for them to return for three years: was it because of Kate, or was it for this moment? That said, Jack looks sincere when he admits it’s a relief to follow and not lead. But will he follow? Jack’s leadership philosophy was, “Live together, or die alone.” Sawyer’s is, “Every man for himself.” Will Sawyer continue to think that way?
Highlights:
• Ben’s flat response to Frank asking where everyone on the plane disappeared to: “How would I know?”
• Hurley lifting Sawyer off the ground, and then saying he misses Sawyer’s nicknames.
• Hurley’s response to Sawyer’s announcement that it’s 1977: “Uh... what?”
• Hurley to Jin: “Dude, your English is awesome.”
• Angry Jin!
• Sawyer saying he’s not here to play Nostradamus to these people.
• Ben’s response when Frank pleads with Sun, telling her that when he came on the boat, it was filled with men who were just here to get Ben: “And how did that work out for everyone?” He’s SO slimy. I love him.
• Sun clocking Ben, and then saying in a very Ben-like way, “I lied.”
• “Based on your aptitude test, you’ll be doing janitorial work.” HAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
• Sawyer calling Radzinsky “Quick Draw.”
• Christian!
• Phil: “Everyone say Namaste!” Hurley: “Nama-what?”
• The look on Sayid’s face when the boy says his name. It’s like he’s face-to-face with Hitler and has a chance to take him out before he can do any harm.
Did You Notice?:
• When Ilana first wakes up, she says, “Jarrah?”
• When Sawyer hugs Kate, she’s the only one he doesn’t give a nickname to. There was no “Freckles,” like some of us might have been expecting him to say.
• When Jack tells Jin and Sawyer who else was on the plane, he doesn’t mention Ben.
• On one of the Flame station monitors, you can see an episode of The Muppet Show. Ha!
• We’re seeing a bit of history repeating itself with the Ajira flight. When 815 crashed, Jack called everyone together and told them help would arrive. He then immediately took off with Kate into the jungle. Frank tells everyone to be calm, then takes off with Sun. Everyone has the same confusion, is going through the suitcases for supplies, and wants to know where the hell they are. Just as Sayid jumped up on a rock a few episodes in and challenged Jack’s leadership by not wanting to go to the caves, Caesar jumps the gun a little earlier and talks about searching for a radio or food, disagreeing with Frank’s instruction to stay put.
• That island magical disappearing post-pregnancy healing was as strong in 1977 (allowing Amy to look refreshed, showered, and flat-stomached the day after giving birth) as it was in 2004, when it did the same for Claire.
• When Amy says they’re going to name the baby Ethan, Juliet almost drops the kid. I thought that was very funny.
• No offense to Hurley – y’all know how much I love the guy – but there is NO WAY a baggy sweatshirt of Sawyer’s would also be a baggy sweatshirt on Hurley... unless it was Hurley’s sweatshirt to begin with. Even so, that would have come down to Sawyer’s knees.
• Radzinsky finds “the hostile” in Grid 325. In season 2, Ben sends Michael off the island by having him follow bearing 325.
• Jin might have learned English, but apparently he didn’t learn the subtlety of the wink. He pushes Sayid to the ground, tells him if he speaks, he’s dead, and as Sayid just stares at him in disbelief, Jin holds a rifle an inch off Sayid’s nose. Um... WINK?!
• In our discussions for “LaFleur,” we wondered if Sawyer knew about the Purge. His reaction when Hurley says, “You do know they all get wiped out, right?” seems to suggest he does know.
• The song playing when Sawyer et al pull into the Dharma camp is “Ride Captain Ride” by Blues Image:
Seventy-three men sailed up
From the San Francisco Bay,
Rolled off of their ship
And here's what they had to say.
"We're callin' everyone to ride along
To another shore,
We can laugh our lives away
and be free once more."
But no one heard them callin',
No one came at all,
'Cause they were too busy watchin'
Those old raindrops fall.
As a storm was blowin'
Out on the peaceful sea,
Seventy-three men sailed off
To history.
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
Be amazed at the friends
You have here on your trip.
Ride captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
On your way to a world
That others might have missed.
From the San Francisco Bay,
Rolled off of their ship
And here's what they had to say.
"We're callin' everyone to ride along
To another shore,
We can laugh our lives away
and be free once more."
But no one heard them callin',
No one came at all,
'Cause they were too busy watchin'
Those old raindrops fall.
As a storm was blowin'
Out on the peaceful sea,
Seventy-three men sailed off
To history.
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
Be amazed at the friends
You have here on your trip.
Ride captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
On your way to a world
That others might have missed.
• Jin tells Sawyer there’s a 14J situation – we first heard that emergency code in “The Shape of Things to Come,” when the phone rings in Ben’s house and Locke picks it up, and you hear a woman’s voice saying, “Code 14-J.” When they run over to the other house to tell Ben, he freaks out, arms himself, and knows Keamy and his men are close by.
• Pierre Chang couldn’t be more wound up. Except when he’s saying, “Based on your aptitude test, you’ll be doing janitorial work.” HA! Okay, I’ll stop now.
• Sayid looks shocked when he sees Sawyer for the first time, since the last time he saw Sawyer, he was leaping out of the copter – most of them assumed, to his death.
• There’s a really creepy painting on the wall of the Flame. I’d love to see it close up.
• Smokey’s in New Otherton. If you listen closely, you don’t just hear the leaves rustle, but you hear that NY cab ticket sound that Smokey always makes right before an appearance. This would lend credence to the idea that Christian is a manifestation of Smokey. Watch when Christian hands the 1977 photo to Sun and the door blows open; you can see smoke in the doorway.• Sawyer puts Sayid in the holding cell and tells Phil to get Sayid some food, adding, “We’re not savages.” In “Confidence Man” in season 1, where Sawyer is pretending to have Shannon’s asthma medicine, Jack tells Kate he’s going to kill Sawyer, but the only thing stopping him is, “We’re not savages, Kate, not yet.” In “The Other 48 Days,” when Ana Lucia has the man in the pit, Goodwin tells her to let him go, and says, “We’re not savages.”
• Jack hugs Juliet and tells her that he’d seen her earlier and wanted to say something, and Juliet says, “But we’re not supposed to know each other.” Yet it’s OK to hug in a doorway while Creepy Phil is watching suspiciously. Awesome.
• There seems to be a small continuity error. Sawyer sends Phil to get food for Sayid. Phil leaves, probably to tell Ben to fetch the sandwich. He’s crossing the compound and runs into Jack, who asks him where to find Sawyer. Sawyer is happily ensconced in his house, instead of standing by Sayid’s cell, where Phil had left him moments earlier. Maybe this is later in the evening, but if that’s the case, it took a VERY long time for Phil to get Ben to fetch the food Sawyer wanted to give to Sayid.
• I like how Sawyer decides he’s going to try to think things through, but come on... he hasn’t seen Jack, Kate or Hurley in three years, he’s been watching the shores for their return, and the moment they do, he doesn’t want to talk to them, find out how they’ve been, or catch up in any way? I realize he has to pretend he doesn't know them, but it wouldn't hurt to get to know the new recruits, even if just for 5 minutes apiece.
• In my blog for “LaFleur,” I said that Ben should have been in the camp by now, and I couldn’t figure out why Sawyer didn’t notice him. Now I see Ben IS in the camp, but my question still stands. Didn’t Sawyer pick up on the boy named Ben, who has a father wearing the Roger Workman jumpsuit that he later saw? I think Skeletor would have stuck with him.
So Many Questions...
• Sawyer tells Juliet that he’s got to deal with Kate and company before someone else finds them and “they screw up everything we’ve got here.” Is he referring to Kate, Jack and Hurley? Does he find their arrival an unwelcome one just like Juliet does? Had he planned on staying in the DI for the rest of his life?
• Sawyer mentions Faraday, saying he has interesting theories on what they can and can’t do, but when Jack asks if he’s here, Sawyer says, “Not anymore.” I said in my post for “LaFleur” that when the alarm goes off, Faraday runs in the other direction, and I was wrong: you do see him in the house. But I added that when we don’t see him in 1977, I wonder if he disappeared into the jungle at some point, filling his notebooks with the info on the DI that we later see when he flips through them. Does he lose his mind? Does he time travel away? How does he make it back to the 21st century?
• Now we know why Ben was very bloody when Locke saw him lying in the barracks. Did he regain consciousness and talk to Ilana and Caesar? If he didn’t, then there’s no way Ilana would have known the information she gave to Locke, that there had originally been three outriggers, but Frank and “a lady” took one in the night. Since they’re not with the other survivors, how would Ilana have known that?
• Did Juliet purposely show up to the recruitment office a little late to let Kate sweat a bit? If so, that’s kind of awesome.
• WHEN did the rest of the survivors land? Are they really in 2007 or 2008? New Otherton looks more like what it would look like a few years after the Purge than the way it did when Ben was running it. You can see the sign for the Processing Centre hanging there, and there are Dharma symbols on the doors. Neither is there when the Others are living there. Have they landed in another time? Or is New Otherton actually completely gone, and it’s become as ethereal as Jacob’s cabin, with Smokey just making it look like however he wants it to look? Those yearly photos of the Dharma recruits weren’t in the rec room before.
• When Jack asked Sawyer, “So where do we go from here?” did anyone else get the song from Buffy in their heads?
Next week: Based on Jack’s aptitude test, he’ll be doing janitorial work. By the looks of it, Sayid believes he’s been sent to the island to kill Ben, Sawyer turns on the Oceanic 4, and Kate decides to try to steal Sawyer back from Juliet. Presumably so she can sleep with him and the pretend she doesn’t know him the next day.
UPDATE: My DocArzt column is now up.
227 comments:
1 – 200 of 227 Newer› Newest»Hmmm...but theopening episode of this season showed Faraday apparently in the 70's as a worker. So I am thinking something "bad" happened in the following three years.
okay, here is the part i got confused about. the oceanic 5, plus frank, plus the other passengers, were all on the plane together. when it crashed, how did kate, jack, hurley and sayid wind up in 1977 and sun and frank and the other passengers wind up in 2007/2008/present day? if only the oceanic 5 were meant to go back in time to meet up with sawyer, juliet, jin, etc., then why was sun left in present-day?
i always assumed christian was dead, but clearly that isn't true. still, something in me thinks it's a bad omen that sun and frank have seen him.
do you think there's any significance to ben telling sayid there was no mustard on his sandwich but he could get some for sayid if he wanted? was that just some throwaway line? it just seemed ... odd. i loved how teenage ben had the same buggy, wild eyes as his adult counterpart.
i actually laughed out loud when juliet literally hurled baby ethan back at amy after finding out his identity. she looked totally creeped out. well acted, elizabeth mitchell! but i'm with you, nikki, it kind of made me sad knowing it was ethan simply because you already know how it's going to ultimately end for this tiny newborn baby.
loved seeing pierre chang/marvin candle in 'real' life as opposed to on the initiation videos. he wasn't nearly as cool and collected as he appears on film.
i was thrilled we saw razinsky, too! although i had the same reaction as with ethan -- poor razinsky ... this is not going to end well for you, and you don't even know it yet.
the shipping in lost has never, ever been of any interest to me (other than clare/charlie) but when i saw kate back and making her cow-eyes at sawyer, i seethed. he's finally happy with juliet, and he deserves that, why can't kate just go away?! :(
action!jin! is awesome. :D
phil totally gives me the creeps (i don't know the name of the actor, but he's pretty awesome -- he irritated the hell out of me in mad men, as he was supposed to, and he creeps me out here, as he is supposed to). i want to go on record right now and say that somehow, he's going to discover the big secret they're all hiding and either rat them out or get them in trouble or -- hey! what if ben winds up purging all the dharma people because they find out about the oceanic gang and he does it to save their lives?
absolutely cackled with glee over the power struggle between jack and saywer. this should be very interesting to watch unfold ...
loved this episode, one of my favourites of the season. :)
Nice recap Nikki, as always. There were a few things I hadn't caught.
First off, doesn't Radzinski look like someone who can easily go crazy if left in a confined space for too long? His presence was definitely welcomed, and he'll be there for a few more for sure.
My favorite two lines were:
Frank: "I thought you trusted this guy?"
Sun: "I lied"
Is she not sooooo badass? She's slightly turning into Ben.
and
Phil: "I wouldn't call him James. He hates it."
There is definitely an interesting role reversal with Jack and Sawyer that's been slightly going on since late last season. At this point, I think Jack realizes Sawyer has been here three years and knows how the DI works.
Jin may not have learned how to wink, but my thoughts were that he learned English in acting class!
Let me explain the food issue to ease your mind. LaFleur told Phil to get food for the prisoner, he did. Later in the evening, they had Ben bring a dinner for the prisoner. Sayid has had food twin while in the cell now.
Ben looks 2-3 years older (case of taller ghost Walt - aging kids). And I think this is specifically why this period was chosen. Sayid reacts when her hears Ben's name because (I think) he knew Ben was once DI. Sawyer and Juliet don't know so a kid named Ben with glasses would not necessarily be noteworthy, perhaps.
Farrady is an intrigue, and he may well be the reason why things WILL change. He and Desmond have work to do... together?
Ilana probably knows because she found the boats and there were tracks leading to the water and the pilot and a Korean woman could not be found! It may be pushing it, but it's consistent.
The rest of the Ajira had to land post 2004 (likely 2008) since we saw a boat with an Ajira water bottle by the camp. You're right that the processing center looks like it has recently been abandoned, but I posit that the processing facility is off of the barracks (deep water way) and was still in use by the others (Juliet arriving). So when everything happened in 2004, it was abandoned then and now has that look to it.
Di anyone else notice? When the plane crosses the 'field' and the O4 disappear, you can hear the numbers recording on the radio. But Danielle had changed that recording and just before the 'rescue', the losties had shut the outgoing signal. Maybe something changed... I don't know.
@thomwade: Faraday was a worker, but he was trying to hide himself, as if Chang would recognize him. I wonder if Faraday at the Orchid is post Faraday in the Chang comic-con video. Something went bad at some point and Daniel left. Or maybe Daniel never joined the DI and was trying to infiltrate it, after which he met with Chang to record the video...
Oh, a few more notes.
Nikki, the lack of nickname for KAte is, I think, Sawyer showing that he won't nickname-flirt. As if he's moved on and now she's just another one in the gang. But will it last?
@fb: I wanted to add regarding Sun as well. I think that only the four are in 1977 is that the others wanted them there and the wanted to get back. Remember that Jin did not want Sun to come back, and made Locke promise. This may be, in a way, the island keeping Locke's promise by not bringing Sun in 1977. Now that she is on the Island and Jin is looking for her, she might go through a long journey (Christian's words) and eventually end up with Jin, in any time.
Also fb, his name is Patrick Fischler and if you want creepy, check his role in David Lynch's Mullholland Drive (if you haven't already)!
The best line was Hurley's to Sawyer: "Uh... What?" [title]
My favorite unspoken line was Juliet's: "Ethan? Ahhhhhh'm gonna put this baby down now."
I don't think they're suggesting that these 3 years have been trying ones for Sawyer-as-LaFleur, since we saw him as all fulfilled, domestic, and part of the Dharma operation last episode. But I thought he looked less like Kid Rock this week and more just kinda gaunt in the face. At the risk of sounding like some reactionary tabloid magazine, I hope he's okay.
Now we have confirmation that the other passengers aren't in the past (or at least the same past), that Shifty Cesar and Marshal Norah Jones don't know each other, and that Lapidus did indeed use the dirt runway.
So did Ben, Sun, Lapidus, the Marshal, and Cesar not disappear in the white flash before the crash because the Island wanted them in the present, or did it only need them on the plane to match Mrs. Hawking's pattern and not snap them up with That '70s Gang because they were now expendable?
Locke is obviously a special case, and must be in the present for a reason. The rest do seem relatively unscathed, and Ben's arm is better, but we don't know if that's incidental Island healing or if they were preserved specifically during the crash. Although thinking about it again, Christian probably wouldn't have appeared to Sun and Lapidus if there weren't some sort of mission or destiny awaiting them.
If the Swan hasn't been built yet, and nobody's pushing the button, then how is the electromagnetic lode stable or whatever? Maybe Dharma hasn't accessed it yet, since we think we saw that in the first act of the season premiere, but that doesn't mean that it's not there. Could our resident science interpreter and/or anybody who follows what the deal is with that thing explain it to me? And could the uncovering of the lode and operation of the Swan station have somehow physically or metaphysically been responsible for the fertility issues on the Island? Because we saw Amy give birth two weeks ago pre-Swan, and while Sun ended up delivering back in the real world she made it until then all right post-Swan.
This episode went by way too fast and the reveals in the previewfor next week made me wish I could time travel!!!!
@Blam
They certainly have their original purpose for the Swan since they are designing it. And it likely pertains to electromagnetism. But the button is not likely to be pushed right away, we definitely need the incident to happen.
I'm starting to think the the Swan was a way to control some of the properties of the island as opposed to using them, which was the original intention of the DI. The Orchid was trying to use the immense raw energy to manipulate the fabric of time. Maybe the swan was to control some of the various energies emanating from the island.
@ fb 'do you think there's any significance to ben telling sayid there was no mustard on his sandwich but he could get some for sayid if he wanted?'
Maybe it's a reference to mustard gas and the fact that Ben is eventually going to gas everyone?
@ Nikki - So glad you appreciated Jack's work assignment as much as I did. The look on his face was classic.
Got to watch the whole thing again now.
I LOVE this show!
Stranded in Florida for work all week, so I didn't have my precious dvr to pause/rewind/review tonight, dammit (and must get up too early to theorize anyway), but I had to mention the Athens, GA shout-out on Hurley's too-big LaFleur loaner sweatshirt... totally Bulldogs! Woot!
I think the Swan is being built to save some of the Dharma members from the Purge.
If Faraday is now gone, he would already have told Chang about the Purge (in the Comicon video) sometime between 1974 and 1977. So Chang must already be freaking out.
If you recall, the Swan station was kept secret from the other Dharma members. It has loads of supplies, needed for a long, isolated stay underground, hazmat suits, etc, etc. Radzinsky clearly doesn't want Sayid (as Hostile) to see the planned location for the Swan. That would give the whole plan away.
It's possible that "the incident" happened while the Swan was being built. Maybe they hit Jughead on the way down?
Tanyam
I think the video is post 1977. I see the video and the opening scene to lead to a dramatic reveal later this season.
-How would Ethan have escaped the Purge, when Ben even had Horace , Ethan's father, killed? The same goes for Radisinzky?
-It is weird that I never picked up that Sayid Jarrah is the same name as Zaid Jarrah, the 9-11 terrorist of Flight 93.
-Faraday must have done something to piss off Candle, because he is no longer there but he also is hiding his face from Candle in Episode 1
-
As an afterthought: the station (the Pearl?) that was set up to observe those in isolation in the Swan, could have been a ruse set up by Chang to explain why he would want the Swan built. This would explain why all the many reports written by the Pearl observers were jettisoned out the tube to no-man's-land in the middle of the jungle.
Tanyam
You (and the gang) always give me new food for thought, Nik. On the off-week, I was trying to write up a season-to-date review and reiterated to some friends how satisfying this not-so-little bull session is, so hopefully they'll stop by.
I think I have an answer to my own question about the EM lode. The lode may have been stable, or periodically venting energy on its own, before the DI's mucking with it made it unsafe, leading to the need for the timed release. If that's the case, though, it sure dovetailed conveniently with Chang or his bosses' desire to set up a psychological experiment.
Nikki: Oh my god, I was hyperventilating when Jin tore off in the jeep to find Radzinsky.
I'm not quite the Lost maven you are, 'cause that rang no bells for me. Not to imply you're too obsessed... I was pretty into Star Trek too, but not to the point where I can see ten seconds of an episode and tell you the frickin' title, yet most of the friends I have who can are perfectly well-adjusted people. 8^)
Benny: [D]oesn't Radzinski look like someone who can easily go crazy if left in a confined space for too long?
Absolutely. Help me out here though, folks, if that's who Radzinsky is: Why would he try to figure out the layout of all the stations in a phosphorescent scrawl if he was not just a peon recruited for the button-pushing but rather a DI member with fairly high clearance who flippin' designed the Swan station? Some other locations and their purposes might have been kept from him, sure, but he obviously wasn't kept in the dark about everything. Or was the map purely a message to future number-slaves that he was trying to conceal for some reason?
Nikki: Ben’s flat response to Frank asking where everyone on the plane disappeared to: “How would I know?”
I love that he can make those four words sound like "At this very moment, my operatives are triggering nuclear explosives in a half-dozen critically positioned epicenters across the globe."
Your other points were dead-on, too, no surprise. I was practically winking for Jin. And the Jack/Juliet hug in the doorway was just ridiculous; it's either there for plot reasons so that someone can see them, which is sloppy, or it was just staged there for no reason at all, which is sloppier. In general it seemed like everyone was just a little too patient and accepting of the status quo -- especially the people who returned to the magically undiscoverable island 30 years in the past, but even a con-man like James "Jim" Sawyer Ford LaFleur who knows that calm and patience are crucial in situations like this.
I expected Hurley to maybe question if they were really in the past just so that he could exclaim "Dude! My van! It's, like, brand-new!" when Sawyer returns to pick them up, by the way.
Nikki: Sawyer tells Juliet that he’s got to deal with Kate and company before someone else finds them and “they screw up everything we’ve got here.” Is he referring to Kate, Jack and Hurley? Does he find their arrival an unwelcome one just like Juliet does? Had he planned on staying in the DI for the rest of his life?
That last point would be hard to believe if only because he apparently knows that the purge is coming. It seems like he took on enough of a leadership role after Jack and then Locke left, though, that even if he's lulled into something of a sense of security or satisfaction he still has to know that death and devastation will occur in many quarters on that Island within the not-too-distant future and that even if he can't stop it he would want to make sure that he and his comrades wouldn't be party to it or, in some cases, have to live through it again.
@Blam
I think Rad ends up in the Swan not likely on purpose (escape from the purge or what not) and has no material. His map is the est recourse he has of resetting the information he has. Just a thought.
I can't remember when an episode of "Lost" made me LOL so much! I <3 Hurley! And okay, sometimes Ben; he had some pretty good one-liners in this epi too.
Niki, you continue to amaze me!! I appreciate the awesomeness of this show even more after reading your blog. My God, what are you going to do when "Lost" ends after the sixth season?!?
When Sun and Christian were in that shack, I swear there was a woman behind Sun. It was just a camera or props person or whatever, but it sure seemed like someone was there. (Possibly Claire)
link: http://i39.tinypic.com/2lcbcw7.jpg
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Ethan survived the purge because he likely joined the Others/Hostiles.
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I think Amy's baby being Ethan goes a long way to legitimizing Faraday's "whatever happened, happened" theory. Sawyer and Juliet "saved" Amy and she had Ethan, but they didnt "change" the past. They always had saved Amy.
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And really, the more you think about the show, the more the little things are pretty clever, even years apart:
The Runway
Ethan hanging with Locke
Radzinsky "editing" pieces of the orientation film.
Kelvin--who becomes DHARMA--teaching Sayid (in the 1990s) how to torture, saying he "might need that skill someday.
Ethan being first DHARMA baby born on island and hence being obsessed with Claire's baby once he is converted to the Others and they have fertility problems. It also explains, maybe, him becoming a surgeon. [Ethan in general fits perfectly into season 5 time-line. John Locke tells Ethan (at some point between 1992 and 2004) that "I am John Locke and Ben Linus sent me to be your leader." If you remember, Ethan only really befriended Locke when 815 crashed--before Ethan kidnapped Claire. He probably reported both the earlier meeting to Ben, as well as the fact that one of the people on 815 was this John Locke looking the same. I imagine this is why Ben "got caught" in the Danielle's trap and tried to infiltrate the 815-ers. (In addition to his cancer.) He likely was checking on this John Locke. He also was likely trying to kill him or hurt him, but he probably realized that Locke traveled from the feature BACK to Ethan, so it was pointless to try to kill Locke. (Whatever happened, happened.) He basically says this when he admits that shooting him "was pointless."}
The whole notion of the "incident," now finally explored years later.
This show is amazing.
J
Hi Nikki, great blog. And books! A while back I found myself browsing through your season 4 book at the World's Biggest Bookstore when suddenly 25 minutes had gone by and I thought I ought to actually BUY it! Went back for season 3 a week later.)
Re: Baby Ethan's fate, I couldn't help wondering if a kidnapping lies in the poor kid's future--perhaps sparking off irreconcilable differences with the hostiles.
I am surprised Nikki did not talk about why Sun was "separated" from the other O6? In addition to Ben and Lapidus. Was this what Hawkings meant by "unpredictable" results? I have another theory...
Those who were separated and landed in 2008 could not be zapped into 1977 because....in 1977 they were already there as young versions of themselves!
Yes I am saying Ben, Sun, and Lapidus (not sure about him) were already in 1977 Island. Which would prevent them from zapping there and meeting their younger selves. Paradox...Discuss!
thomwade: but theopening episode of this season showed Faraday apparently in the 70's as a worker.
I think Faraday's still around, but no one knows it. He was around as a worker, but if you'll recall, when Pierre walks by, Daniel hides his face because he doesn't want to be recognized. I'm thinking he'd already gone into hiding at that point, and no one knew where he was.
fb: when it crashed, how did kate, jack, hurley and sayid wind up in 1977 and sun and frank and the other passengers wind up in 2007/2008/present day? if only the oceanic 5 were meant to go back in time to meet up with sawyer, juliet, jin, etc., then why was sun left in present-day?
I think the flash of white light sent some people time traveling to the past, but others stayed. The island can do what it wants, and it has a reason for just wanting those people back. If Sun were to go back in time, maybe she and Jin would be happy there and wouldn't want to come back (which would surprise me, since Ji Yeon should be a good reason). Or maybe she would become pregnant again and it could kill her, and that wasn't meant to be part of the timeline.
I'm thinking it has something to do with Sun's different attitude. She's the one person of the 6 who contacted Widmore and has something to do with him, and was working against Ben, not with him. Ben needs to stay in the present day (probably because he can't encounter himself as a child) and as such, the island needed to put someone else with him, and the person it chose was Sun, for strategic reasons.
do you think there's any significance to ben telling sayid there was no mustard on his sandwich but he could get some for sayid if he wanted?
It could be a throwaway line, but I thought it connected us back to the scene where Juliet brought Jack a hamburger and said it didn't have ketchup on it but she'd get him some if he needed it. Or something like that. I'm pretty sure a similar conversation happened between them.
Benny: Nikki, the lack of nickname for KAte is, I think, Sawyer showing that he won't nickname-flirt.
Oh I think that's exactly what it is. I pointed it out and just assumed that conclusion. I'm with fb on this one: I don't care about the ships on this show that much, and have thought for the most part the relationship between Sawyer and Juliet seems forced, but if I suspend my disbelief, you have to realize they've been together 3 years to Sawyer and Kate's 3 months (on again off again, at that) and Kate just kind of annoyed me. In the preview she tells Sawyer she came back for one thing. I'm hoping that thing was Claire, and not Sawyer.
@Nikki - I agree, I hope to god Kate leaves Sawyer alone because it would be too dull to have a revival of the love rectangle (or whatever)
I did think that in this episode she was like the Ghost of Sex Past!
My thoughts:
- The janitorial work line was really good as it's the further humbling of Jack. But I hate to burst anyone's bubble, Jack didn't do an aptitude test, Juliet/Sawyer simply gave them all jobs to keep them inconspicuous.
- Minor nitpick, but I dislike that Ethan was once in the D.I. Unless the hostiles stole him as a kid, that would more than make up for it. It fits.
- Is Hurly Mr Funny One-Liner now. I know he's comedic relief but the Nama-what line bothered me. It made him sound like a buffoon. There's a huge Namaste banner above your head, it can't be the first time he'd heard it.
- I was losing it when Christian showed up in 2007 Dharma-ville. I was screaming at the tv that Sun would see Christian, realise who it was and say "hey aren't you dead, what's up with that" only to then realise she was the only O6 not at the funeral/memorial. Bravo Lost writers.
- As soon as the kid showed up in the finale scene in shadow I knew it was young Ben, but upon his reveal I said "Holy Crap it's Harry Potter."
Anonymous: I am surprised Nikki did not talk about why Sun was "separated" from the other O6? In addition to Ben and Lapidus.
Good point. It was deliberate, actually: on the one hand, it takes about 90 minutes for me to write all of this up at the end of the episode, and to add deeper analysis and speculation would delay getting it up, and, to be honest, I'm just way too tired at midnight to get into that. But when I'm writing this, I usually have one point I write out at the beginning (the longer sections where I focus on one thing) that I remove just before posting, and that becomes the basis of my DocArzt column the next day. In this case, it's talking about why Sun was separated. Good theory! I definitely think Ben ended up in the present because he couldn't encounter his past self, but didn't extend that to Sun, too. Nice!
Anonymous: The janitorial work line was really good as it's the further humbling of Jack. But I hate to burst anyone's bubble, Jack didn't do an aptitude test, Juliet/Sawyer simply gave them all jobs to keep them inconspicuous.
Don't worry, I don't think anyone's bubble was burst -- the line is funny not because it's true, but because Sawyer is the one who assigned the duties and would have noted that Jack's aptitude test (which he never took) had a low score. If you look at my write-up, I said on the first instance, "Score one for Sawyer." I was referring to the fact that Sawyer was the one who put Jack in that position. That's why Jack sort of chuckles to himself.
Jin holds a rifle an inch off Sayid’s nose. Um... WINK?!
Ha! I was thinking the same thing at the time. I told my wife "jeez, Jin could have winked or something to let Sayid know he's ok."
I'm also thinking the island left Sun in the past because she's been "tainted" by Widmore, and her "journey" will be as much about realigning her sympathies with the island as it will actually getting back to where everyone else is.
I really, really hope Juliet was screwing with Kate. Cuz that would be awesome.
This show just blows my mind week after week. LOVE it!
Juliet looked so shocked when Sawyer told her about Kate, Jack and Hurley. I'm just wondering if she was so surprised because she never expected them to come back. If that's so, I wonder why she didn't expect anyone to return when Sawyer had so ridiculously much faith that Locke would return with them.
When I saw Ben up and walking around I said, "How did he end up injured? I hope Sun beats him up." hahahaha I was so happy when Sun cracks him over the head with the oar.
Now we know Ethan was born on the island. From flashbacks we believe that Ben was not. But Ben says that he was. I was reading Nikki's season 3 guide and she questions, quite intelligently :), why Ben would send their only surgeon (Ethan) to the Losties and risk his life. I wonder if Ethan had begun to take some kind of authority and Ben felt threatened because Ethan was actually born on the island while he wasn't and Ben sent him off knowing he would probably die. Ben is just evil enough to do that.
I totally thought that Juliet had left Kate off the list intentionally just to get rid of her.
I found it interesting that Sayid doesn't get the happy day reunion that all the others get. Instead, once again, he is tied up and being questioned. Poor Sayid.
Great line... "You didn't think, Jack. You just reacted." hahahaha take that Mr. I'll Fix It! Besides, you didn't get them off the island. You got yourself off the island and happened to take a few people with you. Selfish jerk.
Absolutely biggest lie in the entire episode was not Sun saying she trusted Ben, not the Losties pretending to be Dharma, but Sayid's line at the very end..... "It's nice to meet you, Ben." :)
Love, love, love this show
Oh, one quick question, Nikki...
"When Jack tells Jack and Sawyer who else was on the plane, he doesn’t mention Ben."
?????? I've been trying to figure out which Jack is right and which Jack is someone else, but I can't figure it out off the top of my head and can't rewatch it.
Sonshine: When I saw Ben up and walking around I said, "How did he end up injured? I hope Sun beats him up."
OMG, I said EXACTLY the same thing! Then clapped and giggled with evil glee. ;) And then cheered loudly when she DID.
"When Jack tells Jack and Sawyer who else was on the plane, he doesn’t mention Ben."
No one else saw the three Jacks standing there? Oh man... I need to stop drinking before writing these blogs... ;) I will fix, thank you for pointing it out!!
Argh... I keep forgetting that because of this blog's Thursday morning popularity, it's really hard for me to change the posts. I go in, make the change, and it just freezes up completely because of all the people sitting on the blog at that time. I'll do it soon, but until then, the line was SUPPOSED to read, "When Jack tells JIN and Sawyer who was on the plane..."
Scott: Welcome to the blog! Great to have you here.
Re: Baby Ethan's fate, I couldn't help wondering if a kidnapping lies in the poor kid's future--perhaps sparking off irreconcilable differences with the hostiles.
Excellent theory! There must be some way Ethan crosses over to the Others, and this would be a great plot twist!!
@J. Maggio: That looks like Charlotte, doesn't it?
@Anonymous:When Juliet asked Amy if some recruits didn't come aboard, she said two. Maybe those two were replaced by Jack and Hurley, so that they would have aptitude scores on records. Juliet is the one who writes down the new names, not Sawyer (although I believe he could have done it).
By the way, was anyone else creeped out by The Donkeys's Excelsior Lady playing? That's the second time (first was in Jin's van at the end of '316') and it's from 2008? Did someone bring an 8-track of it with them or what?
And just to plug it, it's a good album to chill.
Pardon my nerdiness, but I really want a brown jumpsuit with a DI logo. Where can I get one?
One thing I haven't seen much comment on is the plane being brought down. As a student pilot (far from an expert obviously) everything Lapidas did in that scene was precise. While so many shows wouldn't go into the level of detail, the accuracy, including the pilot reactions, to the scene was chilling. I can't think up any good lost theories on it but wanted to note how careful the writers must have been to provide realism in this particular case.
The best part of the show was seeing the runway. Now, I am a huge Sawyer fan but I am on team Jack for this episode. I thought Sawyer Lording his leadership over Jack was a bit much but I understood and went with it until he taunted about people dying when Jack was in charge. Er..excuse me Sawyer, you had headaches, the man gave you glasses. You were almost killed by a genuine Iraqi the man put you back together. You left on a raft and returned half-dead, the man put you together again. Last but not least, the man negotiated his way into almost death so you and your girl could escape the "others" and what you have to say is he "reacts" and you "think"? I am not impressed at all. It's unfortunate bloggers can't put aside their feelings when blogging from episode to episode because Nikki, you called this one wrong, big time.
Are you just choosing to have selective memory or is it wishful thinking or a bit of both? You watched La Fleur? You saw the end? Then you watched the hug today? ...and all you can say from that is, oh he called her Kate not freckles so it means he is over Kate?...LOL Gimme a break, Nikki. Was he over Kate in season 3 when they were both calling themselves, James and Kate? How come in your list of things to notice you conveniently failed to notice the glances they gave each other when they came off the van? How come you conveniently failed to notice he put her "leia" round her neck for her while he handed Jack and Hurley theirs? You seem to put a lot of weight in him not saying "freckles" while calling Hurley-Kong and Jack-Doc, but somehow blanked at what was so clearly smiles and looks, and even an under the glasses smile b/w Sawyer and Kate when they came out of the van. I think for those who complain about Fishbiscuits so called biased recaps since she is a proclaimed Skater, they need look no further for the opposite. Nikki is here to present the otherside of the coin. Atleast Fishbiscuit notices EVERYTHING and whether she gives it her own slant or not is every readers opinion. The whole point of having your own blog is to recap from your own point of view.
Nikki in my opinion just simply fails to notice certain things. Too bad. Maybe "he's our you" will help you write a more complete recap even if you give it your own slant which is entirely your prerrogative.
Oh @ Benny- and if you think, Kate and Sawyer are over, think again. I think maybe you need a nostalgic re-watch, of seasons past, then watch, Kates argument with Jack off Island, the end of La Fleur, the whole of Namaste. Then read Elizabeth Mitchells recent interviews. Buckle up. They've only just begun.
Minor nitpick--Hurley saying to Jin, "Dude, your English is awesome,"--wouldn't Jin and Hurley, Jack and Kate talked during the van ride over to meet up with Sawyer? Are you telling me they just rode in silence? Wouldn't they inundate each other with questions?
So, if the Amelia that is in Juliet's book club is Amy, does that mean that other Dharma members joined the Others ? Or did Amy somehow infiltrate Dharma?
A bit of an uneven episode this week, albeit one with some fantastic moments. Gotta make this quick as March Madness starts today!
And so it goes, some things that jumped out at me:
1) Flight 316 has apparently jumped in time - when the flash comes, they're flying at night and then suddenly it's daytime and they're flying in brilliant sunshine above the clouds. The tagline "thirty years earlier" would seem to put the 316 crash in 2007 - about a year before it took off in L.A.! Perhaps this was just convenient - easier than saying "thirty-ONE years earlier"?
2) When Caesar shakes Ilana after the crash, I thought she said "Sarah" rather than "Jarrah". I ran it a few times and this seems right although hard to say for sure. This struck me as potentially significant (isn't everything?) as transcripts of whispers heard in the jungle (not canon) have mentioned the name 'Sarah' several times.
3) When a stunned Sawyer asked Jack how Locke died, he of course replies, "it doesn't matter ... he's gone". Really? The mad/savior Locke mysteriously appears off-Island using the alias Jeremy Bentham, tries to convince them to come back and then commits suicide? This doesn't seem RELEVANT to you? Thanks, Jack.
4) Radzinsky ("Head of Research") thinks Sayid is a 'Hostile'. Well ... duh. If he isn't a Hostile and he obviously isn't Dharma - then who the heck ELSE could he be? Are they already aware of other attempts to reach the Island and on guard against them?
5) Fantastic to see the blueprint and model for the Swan Station. Looks like Dharma has their own plans to shatter the Truce - building more intrusive stations (perhaps outside their 'territory') and keeping them secret. The Swan blueprint shows both the living quarters, the airlock ... and something labeled the 'Blue Sky Exit Ramp'. Interesting.
6) The disarray at New Otherton seen by Frank and Sun could well have resulted from both the Keamy Invasion and Smokey's Revenge - and whatever has happened from 2005-2007. The framed New Inductee 'class photos' are still on the wall in the Processing Center, as we see when Jack and Kate are processed. We've seen the dock area before but I don't recall seeing the Processing Center during events on the Island prior to the O6 departure.
7) There are a LOT of continuity issues in this episode. Successive shots in scenes have people in different positions, etc. Most prominent for me was during the New Inductee 'class photo' when we see Hurley turn to Kate and say "Nama-what?" as we hear the shutter on the camera click. Yet, in the framed photo, Hurley is looking straight into the camera.
8) Juliet's reply to Amy's question, "so, when are you and Jim going to have one of these?" - "the timing's gotta be right". Truer words were never spoken!
9) When Young Ben enters the Security Station, we see what appears to be a topographical map of the Island on the wall bulletin board. I wonder if there is any particular significance to the computer directly beneath?
10) Sayid's reaction to Young Ben's revealed identity, "Nice to meet you, Ben", contrasts nicely with Locke's identical comment on meeting Charles Widmore in 1954. No smile, though ...
Namaste!
With Jack being a janitor, will this put Roger Workman (Ben's father) out of a job?
Will we find out next week what Sawyer said to Kate on the helicopter?
@flexible
I dunno...
Sawyer, you had headaches, the man gave you glasses. That's more of a doctor thing than a leader thing.
You were almost killed by a genuine Iraqi the man put you back together.Also, that same man instructed that Iraqi to almost kill him in the first place.
You left on a raft and returned half-dead, the man put you together again.Again, this shows Jack to be a good doctor, but not necessarily a good leader. Also, he had some help from Dharma medical supplies and Kate's lovin'.
Last but not least, the man negotiated his way into almost death so you and your girl could escape the "others" Which was really more about making sure the girl could escape. And since "certain death" ended up translating into flag football with Tom and a one-way ticket off the island, I don't think we can consider that sacrifice all that heroic.
In fact, Jack's record in leadership (not just doctoring) IS kind of spotty, especially considering that until Locke blew up the sub, Jack was all ready to blow town and leave everyone else he was "leading" behind on the island. Add to that the fact that he insisted the Freighter Folk were there to rescue them LONG after it became clear they had no such interest, presumably because he didn't want his people to know he had been wrong, and that his leadership style is as dictatorial in its way as Locke's was when he was lord of New Otherton, and I think Sawyer has a point.
Which isn't to say I automatically think Sawyer is or will be a better leader, just that there is some ground for pointing out Jack's less than sterling leadership track record.
I also said, "Wink, Jin!" when he was pretending to threaten Sayid!
I was almost dreading this ep because I was happy with where Sawyer and Juliet are -- looked to me like Juliet had talked herself into believing the Oceanic 6 wouldn't come back, either. She didn't look nearly as taken with the baby when she found out it was Ethan.
@flexible: it should first be noted that the second part of your post should definitely be edited as it is certainly more of a personal attack as opposed to constructive notes.
This blog is not a place to attack what viewers believe. We try to share information and what we notice, theorize and expect. No one claims to have an absolute answer.
No one mentioned that Sawyer didn't have feelings left for Kate once he saw her. But how he reacted to her presence justifies the presented interpretations. That he called her 'Kate' instead of 'Freckles' signifies much of what Sawyer is thinking. The use of Kate's given name suggests that he was trying to fade out/eliminate the quirky flirtations of their relationship and uphold it to a higher standard of well known acquaintances. Name usage does not directly equal feelings but it is an action representing intentions or attitudes.
On top of that, Nikki did mention (last week) the glances each other exchanged and at that point the idea was that he definitely was not over her. As for the Lei, it is customary for a member of the opposite sex to give it. Given their own predicaments, Sawyer probably saw fit to proceed with Kate but rather not with Jack and Hurley.
And now, as for what I believe, I never said anywhere that I thought it was over between Kate and Sawyer. I mentioned that Sawyer's actions indicated that he wanted to move on (and that is just my professional analysis). And as to my own comment, I quote:
"As if he's moved on and now she's just another one in the gang. But will it last?" maybe it should have read wanted to move on. Regardless, I keep it opened because I don't know what will happen, and I'll be honest, neither do you. You only have a vague idea based on interviews.
(And for the record, I re-watched the series during the hiatus (March break/no work, got bored).
Okay - I'll take your bait, Flexible.
You won't be surprised to see a regular commenter on this blog defend Nikki but I don't consider it appropriate to respond to your comment/rant with the discourtesy you display. Your comments are accusatory and disrespectful in tone. You are welcome to your opinion - and under most circumstances, we all might be interested in hearing it.
You may also have your 'preferred' LOST blogger and you have every right to compare and contrast the observations made there with the ones you see here. There is, in my opinion, a mocking sarcasm in your editorial that grates on these eyes/ears. I find it unnecessarily argumentative and unpleasant to read in the midst of the enjoyable banter that is sought for and appreciated by the fortunate readers of this blog and commentary.
Please forgive me if I overreact or misread your intentions. If so, I apologize and say "Namaste, my brother/sister".
If not ... well, in the words of the quipmaster Woody Allen, "Be fruitful and mulitply .... but not in those words".
*standing down to DefCon 3, now*
@pete re. Dharma jumpsuit...docarzt has an article on just that today.
http://www.docarzt.com/lost/wanna-rock-a-dharma-jumpsuit-its-not-hard/
@Genevieve: they should have. Maybe Jin's comment that he was waiting for Sawyer to tell them, meant everything. But a few comments like "how have you been?" or "seen any good movies lately?" would probably fly.
@Paticus: That is a good question that we are all asking ourselves I think. I'll take one further, wouldn't Amelia recognize Juliet as well. Amy saw Juliet save her and deliver Ethan in the late 70s. In 2001, a doctor named Juliet who looked EXACTLY like the Juliet she once knew, showed up on the island. I think it would bring back a few memories, especially if you have pictures. This is somewhat analogous to Danielle and Jin, thought they hadn't spent much time together.
@humanebean:ditto on your post(s)!
Fun comments:
1)It hadn't clicked about the night and day, so they did jump slightly. I think they might still be in their own future, just a little bit off by a few months, i.e. 30y4m (let's round it down).
8)I thought exactly the same thing, it was smirk worthy I think.
10)Sayid never was one for the smiles. Also, he didn't have the sun in hi eyes to quint like Locke did!
flexible: While I won't take the bait (and I'm tending to a very sick 4-year-old today so I'm away from my computer and LOVE coming back to emails from my readers telling me I'm being attacked), I will say that as others have said, my opinion is simply my own. I'm glad you read other Lost blogs, I think everyone should read a mix of them because one person cannot catch everything, that's for sure. But I don't post on other people's blogs telling them and their readers that they're morons and they should come over to my blog if they want to read something written in English. There's nothing to be gained from that.
You're clearly a Jater, and that's totally cool. But I've spoken to many, many people who run Lost blogs and sites, and the first piece of advice they have is: Avoid all shipper talk. If you get a war going between the Jaters and the Skaters, you've pretty much lost your blog. So, I try to avoid all ship talk, and refuse to subscribe to one ship or another. I've shown a lot of sympathy to Jack in the past (I know you won't do this, but if you checked my books you'd see a LOT of sympathy to Jack in the first 2 seasons) and I think Matthew Fox is a genius when it comes to acting. I think Josh Holloway is great, too. I was happy to see Jack happy in "Something Nice Back Home," and I'm happy to see Sawyer happy, too.
But Jack has taken a holier-than-thou stance for so long -- telling Locke he's wrong about the button (wrong), saying no one moved the island (wrong), assuring everyone the freighter folk were there to rescue them (wrong). And all along he's attacked Locke and Sawyer as a couple of underlings.
So give me this one moment of triumph to see Sawyer finally talk back to him.
But if you'd actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I qualified it by saying that Jack sincerely looks relieved. I also reiterated that he had leadership foisted upon him and never wanted it. I would love to see Jack at peace, I fear for his sanity when he finds his father again, and despite my occasional poking fun at him, I do want the best for him and I believe that he's at the very core of what the entire series is about.
But I don't know why I'm saying any of this, because I'm a lousy blogger who doesn't know anything anyway. :) But please, if you don't like my blog, just go find another one. I'm not sure why you think attacking me makes you a better person. I try to stay away from any shipper talk, so please don't jump on one tiny comment I've made and try to turn it into a mountain. We have better things to discuss.
Anyway, back to Lost... ;)
A few thoughts:
1) Was anyone else expecting Locke to show up and be the one to beat the crap out of Ben?
2) I'd would've liked to see Juliet's reaction if the baby was Goodwin. Maybe he'll show up still.
3) You'd think Sawyer would ask Kate how his kid was.
4) Does Sawyer not know young Ben is there?
-Tim
humanebean: Thank you. ;)
I just thought of something else..if the "what is going to happen is going to happen" theory is true, then I guess the Purge will take care of the Juliet/Sawyer/Jin/Miles/Farrady/Kate/Jack?Hurley/Sayid being on the island twice thing, right ?
@humanbean & @Nikki: Well said.
@Benny: I had not thought about that. So I guess we just figure that Amy/Amelia is a red herring/coincidence ?
Great recap, Nikki! your thoughts always help me understand the show.
I haven't read all comments, maybe this has been answered already, but I don't understand how Sayid would know that the sandwich-delivery kid is a young Ben.
How does he know that he travelled back to 1977? I don't recall Sawyer telling him. Are we to assume that he told him during their meeeting?
Nikki said: "Smokey’s in New Otherton. If you listen closely, you don’t just hear the leaves rustle, but you hear that NY cab ticket sound that Smokey always makes right before an appearance."
I have always assumed that now that Smokey has access to Otherton after everything with Keamy(sp) and his men, he/it would remain there. Even though we know his original place of residence now, he/it has always wanted access to Otherton for whatever reason. I would think this has been happening since the DI built the fence once they came to the island and is in fact the reason behind the security fence. Originally it might have been built to stop the threat of the Others, but as we have discovered, they CAN access Otherton without worrying about the fence.
Nikki also said: "This would lend credence to the idea that Christian is a manifestation of Smokey. Watch when Christian hands the 1977 photo to Sun and the door blows open; you can see smoke in the doorway."
I doubt that Christian (aka Jacob) is Smokey. Indications are that Smokey has been on the island a VERY long time. We have no indication that Jacob (aka Christian) has been on the island that long. Yes, Jacob has at the least been known since the 50's but how much earlier than that - we really do not know ... yet.
No worries, Nik! Hope the little one feels better, pronto. You just take care ... we'll be out here, cruising the perimeter, guarding against hostile incursions ...
; ]
Paticus said...
So, if the Amelia that is in Juliet's book club is Amy, does that mean that other Dharma members joined the Others ? Or did Amy somehow infiltrate Dharma?
I'm beginning to wonder if baby Ethan was kidnapped by the Others and brought up by Amelia instead of Amy.
tanyam
4) Does Sawyer not know young Ben is there?
I don't think he does. Remember, as far as Juliet and (presumably) most of the Others know, Ben was born on the island. I'm also fairly certain he wouldn't have told any of them he was ever part of Dharma.
With that in mind, I doubt Sawyer, Juliet, etc. have any reason to LOOK for Ben. I'm sure they're aware there's a kid with glasses named Ben Work Man on the island, but unless they interacted with him directly (and it's certainly possible they haven't) or knew his last name was really Linus, they probably don't know "their" Ben is that Harry Potter lookalike.
Now Sayid did interact directly with young Ben, and has also spent more time with Ben (off the island) than a lot of other people so I don't doubt that if some bug-eyed kid named Ben gives him a sandwich, Sayid would put two and two together.
Which isn't to say Sawyer wouldn't either, I just don't think he's hung out with little Ben much.
Looks like he'll be finding out next week, though. :)
In "The Man Behind the Curtain," Ben says to Locke someting to the effect that he was ONE of those smart enough not to end up in the pit. This would seem to imply there were other DHARMA folk that defected to the Others.
I like the theory of Sun and Ben not being able to travel back to the islands past, because they are already there. But if that's the case, why was timeskipping Sawyer allowed to jump back to when Claire gave birth to Aaron - a time when his a few weeks younger self was definetely on the same island!
No, there has to be another reason why Jack & Co. are connected to Sawyer & Co. and their time jumps, but Sun isn't. What is it?
Hey, I don't think it's been mention, but just to be safe: we have a new DHARMA symbol. On Hurley's jump suit.
@Patticus: Let's not jump the gun. It could very well be a red herring, or maybe Amelia knew more than we noticed, we barely saw her after all!
@Annie:Although you're right, I'll just assume that Sawyer told him in the van on the way to the barracks, just to be sure Sayid is slightly in on it! It puts me at ease.
The problem i have with Juliet & Sawyer in particular not knowing that Ben is there is that the kid LOOKS like Ben, and I would also think that if someone on the island named Ben ,had the sort of effect on them that Mr. Linus did, you would immediately think of that person when you heard the name, and then the physical similarity would be apparent.
@Annie: My bad, Radzinski is in the van, so it's not then!
@Benny- But I need it resolved NOW!! All of IT!!!! :)
@Patticus: Haha! Well I guess it's all relative. If the now of the survivors can be 2008 AND 1977, I guess our now can be March 2009 AND May 2010... which means it will get resolved now! See how it all works!
Wow, way to overreact, Flexible. I don't know how long you've been reading Nikki's blog, I've been around here since S4 and if there's a reviewer that's mostly neutral about shipping, that's her. Just because she gave her own interpretation to Sawyer's reaction to Kate's comeback doesn't mean she HATESSS on the ship. Jesus.
Hrm. Back to my reactions to this episode:
# How badass is Sun? My theory of the day is that she didn't travel back to 1977 because, like Ben, she would have met her younger self. Yup, it just dawned on me that she might be an island native (Dr. Chang's daughter perhaps?) and has been adopted by Paik - perhaps sent to him by Chang himself for her safety. y/n?
# Yay Lapidus! I was afraid his story was going to be dropped after the S4 finale, glad to see he's back and actually quite relevant.
# I truly hope Caesar and Ilana don't get Nikki&Paulo'ed. Especially because I think Saïd Taghmaoui is a fine actor and I'd love to see more of him.
# OMG LITTLE BEN IS BACK. I know everybody is like "why isn't Sawyer doing anything about it" etc., but it seems ol' Jim LaFleur is pretty much in line with the whole "whatever happened, happened" theory, so perhaps he just tries to pretend Benny doesn't exist? Or perhaps this version of Ben is so clearly miserable that even Sawyer doesn't have the heart to pick up on him. Love how the actor for teen!Ben can do the bug eyed thing while going all *fanboy* over the Hostiles.
# So the kid is Ethan. Mmh, sorry to say, he didn't age well, didn't he? I would never buy he wasn't even 30 when the Losties crashed for the first time.
# LOL SAWYER UNLOADING BUCKETS OF PWNSAUCE ON PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE, especially Jack. I wonder if what Ben told him in Confirmed dead ("Look at yourself. Yes, on this Island you're brave, daring, handsome, you're someone, but if you left with them, back in the real-world a low-life scam artist like you could never compete with a first class surgeon") was some kind of... backwards prophecy? Like, Ben knew that only on the Island Sawyer could become "someone": in the DI, he is a well respected member of the community, leads a steady life, and is appreciated for his skills at strategy and organization (which is what made him a good con artist after all) without prejudice. The island is the place where people can start writing their lives on a blank page (and that's why I still have problems buying the fact that it all ends up in some big predestination loop: because the island seems to be the place where you can be what you want to be, if you love the place; compare Other!Juliet who always wanted to leave, and Dharma!Juliet who would NEVER leave now). I guess that's why the left behinders are all "Oh... hi?" at the O6 (well, O3), it's like they are going to get pinned down by their past once again. I also had the feeling that deep down, they were just resentful for being left behind in the first place.
# Juliet for president of the motherfucking island for her own bit of pwnage at Kate. She totally arrived late on purpose XD Sure she was obviously thrilled at seeing Jack again (and may I say, Jack was, too) but as I said before, I don't think she's going to trade her 1977 present with her 2005 past.
Aaand of course the dreaded quadrangle of love is going to be unleashed on us once again. Scares me more than Smokey! And talking about Smokey, right now I tend to think that the Dharma barrack Sun and Lapidus entered is more akin to Jacob's cabin than to a real physical place. I could be mistaken, of course.
@mgkoeln My gut tells me that Sun didn't jump because a) she was supposed to leave the island back in 2004 (because of her impending pregnancy) or b)she was supposed to die in childbirth (a somewhat darker reasoning). Don't forget that Desmond originally saw Clare leave in his premonition; I think things have been deviating ever since and the island/universe is trying to course correct.
Here's a theory I've been pondering for a few hours now. And it's just that, an infant theory.
If Sawyer & Co. hadn't saved Amy, could she have been taken by the Natives and been integrated? In which case she might have had a son with one of them and her choice to name him Ethan would have reflected the Ethan we know. Now she has a son with Horace and she still names him Ethan, though he's not a member of the Natives.
In this line of thinking, that the past can actually be changed, it presents interesting circumstances. Ban could be killed, the purge avoided, and other events happen differently. In which case the processing center that Sun saw still looked pretty much DHARMA since they were never exterminated!
This may also alter Desmond's timeline and since he is 'special' that's how he'll be reintegrated in the show. He knows what should have happened, but history has changed.
@ Benny
Your theory is not far fetched. I agree: it looked like the Others were trying to abduct and indoctrinate Amy.
I wondered along with many others why Dharmaville looked the way it did when Sun and Lapidus arrived there. After the Purge, the Others removed all the Dharma detritus from the compound. Something's up!
tanyam
@Blam: "If the Swan hasn't been built yet, and nobody's pushing the button, then how is the electromagnetic lode stable or whatever? Maybe Dharma hasn't accessed it yet, since we think we saw that in the first act of the season premiere, but that doesn't mean that it's not there. And could the uncovering of the lode and operation of the Swan station have somehow physically or metaphysically been responsible for the fertility issues on the Island?"
I am on that same page. I have been thinking this for almost 2 years now. With 'Jughead', there seems to be more credence to this idea - that burying this bomb in the middle of a load of electromagnetic material will also play into whatever the DI set in place in the Swan. I am more inclined to believe that these things coming together through the efforts of the DI have/had something to do with all the fertility problems on the island - for the DI ... and the Others. This last ep. shows clearly that these problems did not exist at that point. That might be why in the future the Others came to resort to taking children as the only other way of maintaining their population.
I am wondering if our fearless crew are there to prevent this 'event' from happening. If it does not happen, then the Others, the DI and our little group could live on the island happily ever after ... maybe. LOL
so, hostiles were living for 30 years at the dharma old city and they didn´t took that frame away from the wall? c´mon...
hostiles were living for 30 years at the dharma old city
Nah, at the time of Flight 815's crash, the hostiles had only been living in Dharma City for 12 years. The Purge was in 1992...presumably they moved in shortly thereafter.
Still, it seems likely they would have removed the pictures. For now, I'm willing to chalk it up to Christian. As someone mentioned, perhaps the building he's in with Sun and Frank is as ephemeral as Jacob's cabin, and he's able to structure (and decorate it) as necessary.
Or perhaps the Others just left the Orientation Building alone.
joshua: I had to mention the Athens, GA shout-out on Hurley's too-big LaFleur loaner sweatshirt... totally Bulldogs!
I totally didn't realize the Bulldogs were the U of G team. That's awesome. :)
tanyam: If Faraday is now gone, he would already have told Chang about the Purge (in the Comicon video) sometime between 1974 and 1977. So Chang must already be freaking out.
See, this is what I'm still pretty confused about... when that video happened, why he refers to LaFleur in it, who already knows about the Purge, etc. It's so intriguing, and I'm wondering if season 6 will really hinge on this. They showed that video for a reason, if for nothing else than something to make us discuss for 6 months... ;)
er, nik, a quick aside from one U2 mega-geek-fan to another: did you know saïd taghmaoui (cesar) is the actor in the anton corbjin DVD linear that comes with the digipak edition of no line on the horizon? i watched linear a couple of weeks after saïd appeared on lost for the first time and i knew i knew him from somewhere, but i couldn't remember where, and then it hit me. :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U2%27s_twelfth_studio_album#Linear
Blam: I think I have an answer to my own question about the EM lode. The lode may have been stable, or periodically venting energy on its own, before the DI's mucking with it made it unsafe, leading to the need for the timed release. If that's the case, though, it sure dovetailed conveniently with Chang or his bosses' desire to set up a psychological experiment.
I've been meaning to address the unstable lode for weeks. I think you're absolutely right. Can't say for sure, obviously, but when Candle refers to the "incident" that made it unstable, it sounds like the Swan had been built for another purpose, and it overlapped with something that became unstable, and now its sole purpose is to hit that button every 108 minutes. Could be Jughead -- it's not a throwaway line when Sawyer asks Richard if they buried it. I think they buried it, it was safe, and then someone went and built a station on top of it and poof.
Now, an H-bomb and electromagnetic energy are two very different things, so I know I'm missing something here. Anyone help me out?
Blam: Help me out here though, folks, if that's who Radzinsky is: Why would he try to figure out the layout of all the stations in a phosphorescent scrawl if he was not just a peon recruited for the button-pushing but rather a DI member with fairly high clearance who flippin' designed the Swan station?
Good question. I'm thinking if he put a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, he was starting to lose his mind for some reason.
Here's what I'm thinking: The DI had the Purge, but certain people weren't affected... because they were sitting in the Swan station. Therefore Radzinsky and Kelvin weren't killed, but now went outside in Hazmat suits not realizing the Purge gas was temporary, or maybe they're worried Ben's hiding in the trees to finish them off, too. The claustrophobia was maybe something Kelvin was OK with, since he was trained in the army, but Radzinsky couldn't cope with it. Knowing they were the last 2 survivors of the DI, he began making a roadmap of the island for someone else to come along and do something.
Maybe?
Genevieve: My God, what are you going to do when "Lost" ends after the sixth season?!?
That's actually been precisely the discussion we've been having this week on other blog posts (yes, we're masochists) and now I'm trying to figure out how to put a website together that would enable us to continue talking about Lost on a higher level once it's all over. I must start planning!
J. Maggio: When Sun and Christian were in that shack, I swear there was a woman behind Sun.
Ooh, good catch!!! I'm thinking it's a production person standing there by accident. She appears to be holding cue cards or standing next to a camera or something. I think it was an accident.
And really, the more you think about the show, the more the little things are pretty clever, even years apart
Excellent rundown of the things that have happened! I agree, and when she first said her baby was Ethan, my first thought was that maybe this explains his obsession with the fertility on the island. He knows his mother did it, so why can't the other women do it?
As a University of Georgia graduate and Dawg fan, I was most excited about the Georgia Bulldog sweatshirt that Hurley was wearing. It makes me like Sawyer more since he apparently owned it.
Was Charlotte born on the island or brought to the island when she was very young?I cannot remember if that point has been addressed.
Re: Radzinsky. I was thinking that he painted the map as a way of reminding himself where everything was. Why he did it in glow-in-the-black-light paint and on a door you almost never see is the bigger question for me. Maybe he wanted only "special" people who could figure out how to find it to see it.
Nikki,
GREAT episode and even GREATER recap. Just as Sun nailed Ben with the oar, I was commenting to my wife how strange it was that Locke saw Ben....and then BANG right on the back of the head. I jumped up laughing.
Next when Sun said "I Lied" in response to Frank's question I was giddy with glee.
@Nikki: That's actually been precisely the discussion we've been having this week on other blog posts (yes, we're masochists) and now I'm trying to figure out how to put a website together that would enable us to continue talking about Lost on a higher level once it's all over. I must start planning!
Nikki, build the runway... people will come.
Something unrelated to the episode, and Nikki, feel free to delete this if you want. Over on my blog I posted pictures of Lost sand sculptures my family and I built today. We had fun with it and I thought other Losties might get a kick out of it too.
Ugh, I'm trying to get to some of these comments and totally answering all out of order. Sorry!
Anonymous: I was losing it when Christian showed up in 2007 Dharma-ville. I was screaming at the tv that Sun would see Christian, realise who it was and say "hey aren't you dead, what's up with that" only to then realise she was the only O6 not at the funeral/memorial. Bravo Lost writers.
Great catch! I never even THOUGHT of that, but of course, 4 of the Oceanic 6 would know Christian, and aside from Aaron, she's the only one who wouldn't. Totally brill. I wonder if that's the reason Sun was left behind?
pete: Pardon my nerdiness, but I really want a brown jumpsuit with a DI logo. Where can I get one?
OMG, we need to make these and then spend Thursdays on this blog, all wearing our jumpsuits.
Wait. That wasn't geeky, was it? Nah...
I'm not sure where you can get jumpsuits (don't worry, they'll definitely be available soon) but I did find this shirt, which I found very funny:
http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/i-survived-the-dahrma-purge-light-tshirt/132894703
Garrett: Thanks for sharing that!! As I was watching the scene, I couldn't help but think that if Frank HAD piloted 815 like he was supposed to, maybe it wouldn't have crashed so terribly. But then I remembered it split in the air, something that didn't happen to Frank's plane. But still, the guy's a freakin' genius when landing things. Remember in season 4 when everyone was looking around for the copter wreck and Frank looked at them like they were crazy and pointed to where he'd landed it safely? I've always loved that moment. Lapidus rocks.
humanebean: Flight 316 has apparently jumped in time - when the flash comes, they're flying at night and then suddenly it's daytime and they're flying in brilliant sunshine above the clouds.
Do you think it could be anything like when Frank was flying the chopper from the island to the freighter? He's about to head into black skies, lightning, clouds, etc. and it's late in the day, but when they land it's sunny and a day and a half later (the islanders were freaking out because they hadn't heard from Sayid). To those on the chopper, the flight was 15 minutes. To everyone else, it was 36 hours.
When Caesar shakes Ilana after the crash, I thought she said "Sarah" rather than "Jarrah".
I TOTALLY thought that's what she said, too, until I turned on the Closed Captioning, and she said Jarrah. Sigh... I really want that Sarah connection, too.
Fantastic to see the blueprint and model for the Swan Station.
I loved the blueprints, and can't wait to see a really good screen capture of it. It again reminded us that this was the guy who'd painted the map with such precision, since he appears to have architectural drafting skills. My dad is an architectural engineer, and we had little wooden models and blueprints all over the house when I was growing up, so I loved seeing him building that the same way.
And my brother and I LOVED playing in our Swan station Dad built under the backyard... until the day my brother had to go and turn that freakin' key. Sigh.
Garrett: Re: Dharma jumpsuit: LOL!! I hadn't seen that post yet. That's awesome. :)
OK, I'm making one. It's going to say
NIKKI
Head of Research
Tim: 3) You'd think Sawyer would ask Kate how his kid was.
I wondered that, too. If we find out soon exactly what Sawyer said to Kate before leaping out of the chopper, don't you think him finding out if Clementine was OK would have been rather urgent for him?
Annie: I haven't read all comments, maybe this has been answered already, but I don't understand how Sayid would know that the sandwich-delivery kid is a young Ben.
How does he know that he travelled back to 1977? I don't recall Sawyer telling him. Are we to assume that he told him during their meeeting?
Whoa, awesome point! I guess we assume someone told him in the van? They would have had the journey from the Flame to the barracks and Sawyer probably filled him in on the year, what's happening, what's going to happen to him, and what to expect. Maybe the preview we saw for next week -- where it looks like Sawyer's going to throw Sayid to the dogs -- is all an act, something the two guys put together in the van ride.
Senex: Do you think Smokey's been there a really long time? I used to think so, until we've been in 1977 and so far haven't seen any Smokey sightings. The earliest one we see is with Rousseau, which is 16 years ago, but 30 years ago he doesn't seem to be there. Could Smokey have been conjured post-Purge? Did the DI create it to keep the hostiles out? Did the hostiles create it to keep the DI in? But you could be absolutely right. Christian is someone I can only vaguely speculate about, and he's one of the most intriguing bits of the puzzle for me. :)
Brian Douglas: In "The Man Behind the Curtain," Ben says to Locke something to the effect that he was ONE of those smart enough not to end up in the pit. This would seem to imply there were other DHARMA folk that defected to the Others.
Great point!
I just rewatched "the Man Behind The Curtain", and when Locke looks at the bodies in the pit, there is what looks a lot like a bullet hole in one of the skulls. So, i think there is either more to the Purge than we know, or Ben may have fabricated the Purge altogether.
Or am I not remembering something ?
mgkoeln: why was timeskipping Sawyer allowed to jump back to when Claire gave birth to Aaron - a time when his a few weeks younger self was definetely on the same island!
Good question. I wonder if the island was somehow in control of the time jumps (I know, I know, I totally anthropomorphize the island, but I truly believe it's somehow in charge) and knew that while this was happening Sawyer would be reading a book on the beach or be asleep or something. ;)
Paticus: The problem i have with Juliet & Sawyer in particular not knowing that Ben is there is that the kid LOOKS like Ben, and I would also think that if someone on the island named Ben ,had the sort of effect on them that Mr. Linus did, you would immediately think of that person when you heard the name, and then the physical similarity would be apparent.
Yeah, I have to say I'm with you on this one. The DI isn't 50,000 strong, it's about 100-200 people.
But then again, Sawyer's just been reunited with Kate, Jack, and Hurley, and he's... sitting on the couch reading a book, planning. Maybe he DOES know Ben is there, and he's planning something.
poggy: LOL SAWYER UNLOADING BUCKETS OF PWNSAUCE ON PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE, especially Jack.
LOLZ!! Your entire post made me laugh out loud, but this is my favourite line. I MUST USE IT.
The island is the place where people can start writing their lives on a blank page
Absolutely... there's a reason an early episode was called Tabula Rasa. At this point we're all taking as fact Daniel's comment that things could only happen one way, but as I've said so many times before, this show is about fate versus free will. Where does free will factor into things at this point? It MUST.
Benny: If Sawyer & Co. hadn't saved Amy, could she have been taken by the Natives and been integrated? In which case she might have had a son with one of them and her choice to name him Ethan would have reflected the Ethan we know. Now she has a son with Horace and she still names him Ethan, though he's not a member of the Natives.
I love this and the rest of your theory, and it goes along with what I was just saying above to poggy. If you're right, then free will really DOES still have a place on this island!
I love that Dharma purge t-shirt! Haha. I want one. Just watched "Man Behind the Curtain" with my parents and so was able to show them it, too. haha Love Lost
Missing Georgia: Was Charlotte born on the island or brought to the island when she was very young?I cannot remember if that point has been addressed.
I think Charlotte said she "grew up on" the island, but I don't think we know for sure if she was born there or not. Ben says she was born in Essex, but that's from Ben, so...
Hutch: Thank you!
Frank: Nikki, build the runway... people will come.
Roger that... just got to move a bunch of sticks and debris out of my backyard. And I'm sure my neighbours will hate me. ;)
Hey Nikki and everyone,
Just thought I should share this bit of info I heard. I just finished listening to the Lost Official Podcast with the writers Damon and Carlton. Someone asked them about Charlotte's age saying that it doesn't fit with the little red haired girl we saw in LaFleur. Their answer was that the actress Rebecca Mader asked to have the date of her birth changed from 1970 in the script to 1979 during shooting because she didn't want people to think she was older and that she was really born in 1979. Damon and Carlton didn't catch this mistake in editing and I guess couldn't really do anything about it without having to tell Rebecca Mader that she eventually reveals to Daniel that she was really born on the Island and then dies.
Seems like some characters in the show are much younger then the actors themselves. Ben I think is supposed to only be in his 30's, but Michael Emerson is in his 40's. Now we have Ethan who is supposed to be 27, but the actor is in his 40's
So that's basically the explanation. Hopefully they'll get around to the Jack/Locke meeting inconsistency because that's been bothering me.
Get review Nikki!
Does anyone else have a minor problem with the Dharma jumpsuits (which you can purchase at abc.com, by the way). I mean, some of them have the person's last name on it, and some have their first name on it. Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and I know someone will) but as I can recall, we've seen Roger, LaFleur, Radzinsky, Olivia, Goodspeed, Jin, Juliet. Why do some of them have their first name embroidered and others have their last name? I know it's a minor nitpick, but it was driving me crazy last night, why do some people get their last name on it. Is is a showing of stature, or just an error? Argh.
Also, with respect to the damaged Dharmaville. When Sun and Frank come to check out the barracks, is it possible that's it's an alternate future? One where perhaps the Others didn't take over, there was no purge, and something else happened instead? Or is it possible that they are in some other time that is not 1977, but is possibly closer to 1977 than we think? Maybe they've arrived just shortly after the purge? I've only watched the episode once (hopefully going to watch it again right now) so please let me know if there was any indication that they indeed landed in 2007. I can't remember if "30 Years Earlier" was shown after the plane actually landed, or after the plane was in the process of landing. Just ramblings on a Thursdays...
I think Smokey was created by the Ancients. Maybe the reason we haven't seen him before is that he was trapped and the Incident set him free.
"Sayid looks shocked when he sees Sawyer for the first time, since the last time he saw Sawyer, he was leaping out of the copter – most of them assumed, to his death."
I don't know where you got that idea. None of them seemed to think he was dead....Jack even said to Kate in "Something nice back home" that "He chose to stay behind", not "He's dead".
Robbie: "Sayid looks shocked when he sees Sawyer for the first time, since the last time he saw Sawyer, he was leaping out of the copter – most of them assumed, to his death."
I don't know where you got that idea.
Maybe from the fact that Hurley's jaw drops, he runs, picks up Sawyer and says, "You're alive, dude!"
Sawyer survived jumping out of a copter and into the ocean. But not everyone would. They all knew there was a chance he was alive, and a chance he was dead.
Oh yeah I forgot he said "You're alive dude" :)
I think this was referenced earlier, but the landing strip is in place, so 316 had to land in time after the 815 crash. So, in my mind, that pretty much determines that 316 landed in the present or future (or alternate timeline :)
My DocArzt column is now up here:
http://www.docarzt.com/lost/gallery/lost-509-namaste/what-nikki-noticed-509-namaste/
Sonshine: I also realized it had to happen in the present because -- DUH -- the title card says, 'Thirty Years Earlier.'
Sigh. Sometimes I'm so busy looking for a house number I miss the city. ;)
Here are a few questions which I cannot yet answer. Maybe you or your readers can help.
Why did Hurley decide to board the plane back to the Island?
Why did Sun decide to board the plane back to the Island?
Why did Kate decide to board the plane back to the Island?
What did Kate do with Aaron?
What happened to Ben before he boarded the flight?
Why is Sayid in custody? Who is Ilana?
Where are Desmond, Penny and little Charlie?
Why did Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid end up on the Island in 1977, when Sun, Ben, Locke and Frank landed on Hydra Island in 2008?
Where is Daniel? Is this the time period when he was working for Dharma and Pierre Chang building the Orchid Station?
Do Sawyer (LaFleur) and Juliet know that young Ben is part of Dharma under Sawyer’s watch?
If Juliet really did that to make Kate sweat, then she's only making herself look like an ass. Kate hasn't done anything to intrude on her perfect (fake) life other than to come back to the Island like she was supposed to do. She had the chance to lay down the law peacefully and with class, and she decided to be a bitch instead.
And if she keeps up the crap, she's going to piss the wrong person off, namely Sawyer. And we all know how protective he is of Kate. :/
So for all people are calling Kate the "homewrecker", it looks as though Juliet's already off to a good start on ruining things through her own paranoia and jealousy. Which would neatly parallel how Jack ruined his relationship with Kate over his jealousy for Sawyer, wouldn't it?
Not that this would make me hate Juliet, mind you. On the contrary this would be a terrific and interesting character development.
@MissingGeorgia/Nikki: I think last season Charlotte says to Daniel that she was "still looking for where she was born"... rings a bell, will have to confirm.
@edgeshat: nice add-on, it's good to know. But I do think Ben is supposed to be in his 40s, he was born in the mid 60s after all.
@ashlie: the tag "Thirty Years Earlier" put Frank and Sun in circa 2007. So does the Ajira water bottle.
@bmjaffe: here's what we do know.
-Sun wanted to get reunited with Jin;
-Ben was beat up.. by whom/what/why, don't know;
-This is a circa time period from the beginning of the season, before/during/after is not known.
just got home and read nikki's post (thanks) im sifting thru the comments now (great stuff) dont know if this was discussed and im being redundant but youll all let me know...
it kept bugging me that sun and ben didnt make it back to 70s. but then we saw young ben and maybe thats what prevented him(cant have two bens in same time) SO does that mean there is a baby sun on the island? i wouldnt be surprised if her dad was dharma
again my apologies if this pt has been raised ill get back to reading all your comments. enjoy rewating ethan appearances!!!!
@ashlie: I think they simply put the name on the jumpsuit the particular person likes to be called by. So, as we were told this episode: "He doesn't like to be called James" - that's why it's "LaFleur".
@edgeshead: I actually submitted the Jack/Locke-meeting question to the official podcast (and probably many others did a well), but it seems they didn't want to answer it.
@Nikki-Hope your little one gets better. I am not attacking you. I am criticising your recap. If that did not come across in my post, mea culpa.
Who goes on other peoples sites and calls them morons? I am neither a Skater or a Jater. In fact, I lean more to the Skater side than the Jater so you were wrong there :) Ofcourse this is your blog and it is just your opinion. Comparing you to fishbiscuit doesn't mean I think you are not worthy otherwise what would I be doing here? I have read your recaps before. I simply think you were not thorough in this one. Again, I have a problem with people complaining about the triangle and saying they are not shippers but hold views as to who is happy or who is better with whom and so on and so forth. Once you have an opinion on that you've got to know that debates will arise. Every debate about the romance in the show is not a "shipping war". I just found it telling that you chose to notice something which as an avid viewer of Lost in my opinion you oughtn't to have given much weight to, but in a recap of the show, failed to notice the other things. I do agree that Sawyer deserves to taunt Jack a bit but as I said, saying people died on his watch is not taunting, it's bad form. He has been harbouring all that resentment for 3 years? Why did he resent Jack? It 's because of kate because he loved Kate and to him, Kate behaved like Jack was a better man than him. If he has truly moved on with Juliet why should he give a damn. He clearly has not.
@Benny-Sawyer and Kate called each other James and Kate for most of season 3. In fact, from the minute she found out his real name was James, whenever they were having a serious convo, she would refer to him as James. Just like the convo on the way back home when she asked him to say sorry. She referred to him as James throughout and when he became an a**, she said "Welcome back Sawyer" So, I am sorry but your interpretation of them calling themselves by their real names is actually not borne out by the facts. It's not a question of opinion.
As for the Jack leadership issue, I never meant to imply Jack was a great leader. Far from it. I am more of a Sawyer fan than a Jack fan. In Namaste however, I thought Sawyer was almost a bit drunk with power and it was wasted because in the end Jack just smiled which irked Sawyer even more :)
@AMTAR: it's been brought up and your theory is the most popular on the blog (I think). It certainly makes sense.
As for another suggestion that I present; Jin originally did not want Sun to come back and made Locke promise. It could be the island keeping Locke's promise and not bringing Sun back in the group. Christian tells Sun she has a long journey ahead of her, meaning that she'll be able to join her friends.
A little add-on to my theory, when the plane moves through the barrier and encounters the island, we can hear the numbers on the radio. This could suggest that Danielle never recorded her message and that the signal was never disabled by Jack to communicate with the freighter.
A strange little theory my Mom and I came up with.
In regards to Ben. Is it possible that he showed some of the same telekinetic abilities that Walt did? I had forgotten that in "Man Behind the Curtain" he went chasing after his dead mother and Richard meets him in the woods and is veeerrrry interested in this fact. So, do the Others kind of mind kidnap him, which causes Ben to turn from this ordered around, verbally abused, wimpy kid to the homicidal maniac we know and love?
Really weird thought - is there not really a Jacob? Is Jacob a representation of a side of Ben?
I don't think there is any reference to Jacob until Ben is there and Ben says he is the only one who talks to him.
If Ben really IS special, then maybe his fixation on his mother (who died in childbirth) actually causes the fertility problems on the island.
Thoughts? Head explosions? Nose bleeds?
@ sonshineMusic 'I don't think there is any reference to Jacob until Ben is there and Ben says he is the only one who talks to him.'
Locke saw Jacob and heard him say 'help' (and Ben didn't!)
Hurley also saw that creepy eye in the window of the Cabin.
Ugh. I hate being ticked, or being baited, but even worse... rising to that bait. But whatever. Here goes.
flexible: I'm not going to belabour the point, but you don't come onto someone's blog, tell them they do a lousy job, and then when they call you out for it act all innocent and say, "Who, me? Call you lousy? I did no such thing!"
You compared me unfavourably to another blogger, telling me I miss the point all the time (not just in this post, all the time). I don't know if fishbiscuit gets the episodes in advance, but I don't. I have to find all this stuff and write this entire post, all within 90 minutes of finishing the episode. That's what I offer my readers: I get the post up fast, but I don't get to watch things in advance. I do the best I can in the time I'm given. Then the following day I catch up on the things I've missed by moderating this board and discussing the episode on a deeper level. My readers can tell you I've changed my mind on things, admitted I was wrong, and got as much insight from my readers as they got from me. The best way to get the full effect of my blog is to read the post AND the comments, and you'll see much more.
What you've done is found something EXTREMELY tiny in my post, and you made it huge. Here is what you said:
Are you just choosing to have selective memory or is it wishful thinking or a bit of both? You watched La Fleur? You saw the end? Then you watched the hug today? ...and all you can say from that is, oh he called her Kate not freckles so it means he is over Kate?...LOL Gimme a break, Nikki.
First, your tone is rude. Secondly, you're accusing me of saying on my blog that he called her Kate and not Freckles and is therefore not over Kate.
Yet here is the actual line on my blog:
When Sawyer hugs Kate, she’s the only one he doesn’t give a nickname to. There was no “Freckles,” like some of us might have been expecting him to say.
The end. It's in the Did You Notice section, couched between tidbits about Ilana and The Muppet Show. I make no further connection, and I never say, "AND THEREFORE HE NO LONGER LOVES KATE." Yet you go on to say,
You seem to put a lot of weight in him not saying "freckles"
What weight did I put behind it? You're the one making a big deal about it, and then accusing me of doing it. Are you sure you're commenting on the right blog post?
You say Fishbiscuit is a proclaimed Skater, and therefore I'm here to provide the Jater side of things. I misread your post initially (thinking you were a Jater and taking me to task for making fun of Jack's janitorial skills), which is why my response was quite clearly sticking up for Jack. Since I actually poke fun at Jack throughout the blog post, what about that makes you think I'm all for that ship?
You've never posted here before. I don't know where you came from, or if you've ever read another one of my posts (you say you have, but you don't demonstrate it in any way from your comments), but if you'd spent any time here at all you'd know I absolutely do NOT subscribe to any ships (and that's not an act... I quite simply don't care enough about it...) If Kate ends up with Sawyer, I'll be happy if she's happy, and same if she ends up with Jack. But I'll comment on it as a character study if Juliet is treated like garbage.
Does that make me a Suliet?? If you think so, you clearly didn't read my post for LaFleur (you ask me quite rudely if I'd even watched LaFleur, well, I ask you in return: did you read my post on it?) or you would have seen that I see no chemistry between Sawyer and Juliet, and have said it probably 3 or 4 times this season, that it seems forced.
Your first post annoyed me a bit, simply because you came on here waving around the name of another blogger and declaring her superior to me. And she may very well be. But to come on to a person's blog and say that? Not nice.
But your second post annoys me more, because after using language like, "Gimme a break" or "Nikki in my opinion just simply fails to notice certain things" or "Nikki, you called this one wrong, big time," or "Atleast Fishbiscuit notices EVERYTHING" (the inference being that I do not) you have the nerve to deny you said anything bad at all. I think it’s time for you to give me a break.
I love doing this blog. I get paid zero dollars for it. Zero. I get emails all the time from advertisers asking to put stuff on the site and I've never put up anything, because I think for the few bucks a year I'll make, it'll be annoying for my readers to navigate past it. I do it for the fun, for the chatter, for the discussion, for my readers, for a deeper understanding of Lost. I've met a fantastic group of people through this blog that I never would have encountered otherwise, and I look forward to spending Thursdays with them.
But I don't do it to be told how lousy my blog posts are, that I wasn't thorough enough for someone, or that I'm wrong. Wrong about my opinion.
Please just go back to Fishbiscuit's blog posts at DocArzt and let us discuss Lost in peace. She does a great job, I'm thrilled to be involved in the same site she is, and I hope you show her the respect she deserves, and don't leave comments on her blog posts like the ones you’ve left here.
@ Ali Bags: Yes, I know Locke heard the "Help" and that's the only thing that I can't quite get to fit into my random little theory.
I think the eye Hurley saw could have been Christian or even Claire at that point (right? Or am I out of order?) anyway. I don't know. I just have random thoughts that stick in my head and won't go away :)
Glad I made you laugh Nikki :-D
That's exactly my theory re: the island being the only place where it's possible to subvert the rules of time as explained by Faraday - and let's not forget about our favorite wildcard: Desmond! Er, not that I would ever forget about Des *shifty eyes*
A friend of mine has speculated that the island might be metaphorically (or actually?) the garden of Eden - that's the place were Adam and Eve had absolute free will, to the extent that they were able to go against God's orders just because they wanted to. It didn't end well but hey, it worked! XD and we do have our "Adam and Eve" on the island... (now I suspect they are Rose and Bernard, unless they were absorbed by the Others, which might be a possibility?)
Yay, Nikki!!!!! You go, girl - flexible is simply a rude person who enjoys getting people riled up but can't take the heat. Your blogs are fabulous and just that..."YOUR" blog. You can say whatever you want. Others can choose to disagree but if they really hate what yuo're saying so badly, why are they here?
@flexible: one more thing. You said in your original post:
"The whole point of having your own blog is to recap from your own point of view."
Exactly - that is just what Nikki is doing so why even bring up another blogger?
We luv our Nikki. if you don't, wel, buh-bye!
Man, what a lot of excellent comments! I love that this show generates some brilliant discussion.
Nik, once again, thanks for giving us a great recap. My gf and I were also shouting 'Wink, Jin!' at the tv, just to reassure Sayid, who I thought looked more distressed than I'd ever seen him in the show.
What I loved most about this episode, like a few people have mentioned, was the Jack/Sawyer shift in leadership. I love the direction Sawyer's character has taken. Everything he's done (the blending in with the DI, waiting for Locke or whoever to come back to the island) is totally within character for him. It's the Long Con, something we've all seen is Sawyer's specialty. Now that Jack is back (had a Kevin Spacey moment there), I think that this facet, the boys' radically different leadership styles (reactive for Jack, reasoned for Sawyer) are going to provide some of the best moments in the upcoming episodes. Damn, I love this show!
@Nik, Benny, Humanebean: Well said. I completely concur, and Nik, you have nothing to defend.
@Ali Bags: "The Ghost of Sex Past". LMAO! Excellent turn of phrase, my friend. Also, 'Hurley saw that creepy eye in the cabin'. I still maintain that was Jack's creepy, mental eye. I'll probably be proven wrong eventually, but you get used to it. :)
Also, about Radzinsky. OK, so it seems that he designed the Swan. He's also the guy in the Flame that all the other stations in the DI report in to. Did he design most of the stations in the DI? Remember back when Kelvin was explaining to Desmond about Radzinsky and his project to paint the entire layout of the DI stations in invisible paint? I can't remember right now, but didn't Kelvin say he did it all from memory? If that's the case, does that indicate that he had a larger hand in the overall design of the DI stations? I'm only speculating here, but I think this would feed into the feeling that we've all had about Radzinsky being a bigger part of the story than we've seen so far. I hope so, anyway.
Oh, yes, and just because he was co-writer on this episode, BRIAN K. VAUGHAN!!!!
batcabbage: I think that this facet, the boys' radically different leadership styles (reactive for Jack, reasoned for Sawyer) are going to provide some of the best moments in the upcoming episodes.
Absolutely. Say what you want about Jack (and yes, I know, I often do), but he provides EXCELLENT adversary, whether it's against Sawyer, Locke, or Ben. I'm so happy he's back on the island. His smile and quiet walking away from Sawyer is one of the more subtle and interesting moments in the episode -- Sawyer got him good, and he just smiled serenely and left, as if to suggest this is what he's wanted all along. But I wonder if the serenity will last? Jack tries so hard, but things around him always seem to work against him.
Oh, and... my order of the first 4 books of Y: The Last Man shipped today, and I should have them tomorrow. WHEE!!!!!
poggy: A friend of mine has speculated that the island might be metaphorically (or actually?) the garden of Eden - that's the place were Adam and Eve had absolute free will, to the extent that they were able to go against God's orders just because they wanted to. It didn't end well but hey, it worked! XD and we do have our "Adam and Eve" on the island... (now I suspect they are Rose and Bernard, unless they were absorbed by the Others, which might be a possibility?)
Someone suggested a couple of weeks ago that Rose and Bernard might be our Adam and Eve, and I really liked that idea. I wonder if Adam and Eve will be one of the last things revealed in the very final episode of the series. That and the face of the four-toed statue. I could just see Darlton doing that to us. ;)
There are SO many biblical aspects of this show. I've done talks before where ministers have shown up and I love chatting with them (if there are any of you out there well versed in Christianity, feel free to shout out at any time). The Garden of Eden is definitely an aspect, with temptation and innocence and knowledge all rolled into one. We've seen Christ figures, Satanic figures, Old Testament and New... I'm looking forward to all the religious studies done on the series once it's over.
But not looking forward to it being over.
And Desmond My Desmond... please come back soon!!
@Nik: Fantastic! You'll love those books. I predict that you'll race through the first four volumes, and then you'll just HAVE to read the other six. One of my fave books of all time, and the single greatest final issue of any comic, EVER. I envy you, you have one of the best reads ahead of you. YAY! :)
Wow. Someone is really upset over criticism. Maybe I have not read enough of your posts. Do all your posters agree with everything you say and even when they do not, just dismiss it as "no biggie"?! (rhetorical question)
Oh, so it was me you were referring to when you said go on other blogs and call people morons? Where did I call you a moron? I did not.
Again, where did I say you miss the point "all the time"?
It's amazing that you are able to do this over a short period of time and kudos to you for that. Does that mean I have to temper my disagreement because of how you have laboured? You must enjoy doing it otherwise you would not do it. It's a show you love watching as well. Many people love reading your blog so everybody is happy. What's the problem?!
I do not think Fishbiscuit watches things in advance. Her recap is not up yet. LOL. You are quicker.
I am glad you asked me to read your comments while responding to your posters because it was from there that I learned the weight you had given what you now call "tiny" comments from your recap. I do not have the strength to start pointing out the quotes and I am sure you and I have no desire to go back and forth on this matter. Definitely, your responses to your posters led me to my conclusions.
You have inferred all sorts from my comments and yet when I do the same with yours you start showing me quotes to illustrate that you never literally said those words. I never called you a moron either. Like I said, your responses to your posters is the answer to where you think I came to my conclusions.
You have asked me, am I sure I am commenting on the right blog post? Are you are calling me confused and/or disorientated :) Should I consider that, rude?
Did I call you a Jater or just a good blog for those opposing Skaters to read? I think that's what I said. It's definitely what I meant.
Not only have I read your recaps, I have commented. I was out and did not have my password with me so it was under anonymous. I commented on your LeFluer recap and I agreed with most of it but not all. Like I said, you were not thorough on "THIS ONE" but you seem to have taken it to mean, you are never thorough. The Fishbiscuit comparison really annoys you.
Like I said, it doesn't matter if you ship or not. If you do not care about it, then keep it out of your recap. If it is in your recap, you've got to allow for people to comment on your observations and it's not right to then accuse them of starting a shipping war. Am I supposed to ignore your observations on the romantic arc? Certainly not. It's a big part of the show whether people like it or not.
I said did you watch the "end" of La Fleur? I commented on your La Fleur recap so I know you watched it..
I don't know if I said she was superior. I simply said, she notices everything. That's not a judgment call either way. Obviously I prefer her recaps, and that's just my opinion. I have no interest in who is superior to whom. I enjoy yours most times as well.
I still do not think I said anything bad. Saying a blogger does not notice certain things and did not get it right on this one is surely no reason to get angry, for heavens sake.
You should take the advertisers money. Not all, but some. You can never have enough money :)
Now, you have me confused. Why would you open your opinions on a show to public scrutiny if you have a problem with being told your opinion is wrong, in someone elses opinion? Truly. Why would you? I did not say your blog was lousy either. The insults you have inferred from my post! LOL.
I am waiting for Fishbiscuits recap. I am looking forward to it. It's bound to be great. She rarely disappoints. If it disappoints, I will say so. If it pleases I will say so. It's just my opinion and not a big deal. You should check the comments on her site. A lot of people leave worse things than I posted here. Very rarely, at least that I have seen, does she take it so personal. Chill out Nik.
I thought I should comment on your "treat Juliet like garbage" comment separately as that's more on topic, so to speak. Keep it out of the melee :) I do not expect a response but this is my answer to you.
I am not going to start a debate with you about the "Juliet treated like garbage" comment. I am sure we can have a perfectly decent constructive debate about that but, not in this mood. I will tell you that, Juliet is not a baby or a saint. She had an affair with a married man. She fell for Jack and then concluded he loved Kate. kept ramming that info voluntarily down Kates throat and then let herself out just like she let herself in. She is and I quote Elizabeth Mitchell "Not unaware what Kate means to Sawyer" but 3 years is a long time so she has been comfortable but Kate is back. Once again, Juliet has found herself in the middle with yet another man that has unresolved feelings for another woman. It's not Kates fault she happens to be that woman twice. Perhaps Juliet can find a man who does not love Kate. So, when you say, Juliet being treated like garbage, I am not sure what you mean. If Sawyer realises that he loves Kate, then he should return to her and not have to stick with Juliet out of pity or misguided loyalty. Sawyer will not end up with Juliet so start writing up the character study of Juliet being treated like garbage because clearly, nothing will satisfy the section of the cyber fanbase that seem to think Juliet is a sympathetic figure we must treat with kid gloves in this quadrangle drama. Meanwhile, she is always the architect of her own downfall.
Flexible - No one here minds criticism, especially Nikki. We have very good discussions at this forum that I really enjoy because people are courteous and respectful of each other. The condescending tone that you have taken with your posting is what I, and others, have found rude. You seem to go out of your way to be argumentative instead of just stating your opinion and observations. If you enjoy another blogger, that is fine, but don't go out of your way to be rude and obnoxious to Nikki. She is great!
Now let's get back to discussing the episode and all things Lost.
there has to be another reason why Jack & Co. are connected to Sawyer & Co. and their time jumps, but Sun isn't. What is it?
Because the writers want to torture us wondering when Sun and Jin will reunite just as the two of them are being tortured knowing they can be together again.
Seems like some characters in the show are much younger then the actors themselves. Ben I think is supposed to only be in his 30's, but Michael Emerson is in his 40's. Now we have Ethan who is supposed to be 27, but the actor is in his 40's
Like the original 90210?
I wonder if the reason Ben is like he is, is because of things that happened to him at this time of his life. In other words, when he arrived in the Losties camp as Henry Gale, he already knows Jack, Sawyer et al. It might explain his cool demeanor. It could even explain why he recruited Juliet.
It has happened before, it will happen again.
Oops, wrong show.
Calling Sayid a hostile reminded me of Hostile 17. I seem to be attracted to Hostiles.
I was afraid that Sun had landed in a different time than Jin. Kind of expected it. Poor star-crossed kids.
Oh, and Nikki, if you like Biblical references, you really need to see Kings. It's one of those shows I fell in love with at first sight.
@ Genevieve - I think the Jack, Kate, Hurley Dharma bus ride would have been pretty silent. I think Jin probably faked his old bad English so he'd not have to explain, leaving that job for Sawyer. It's not like they would have expected a thorough explanation from Jin, hence the surprise (paraphrase: Your English is excellent)
- I'm still not liking Ethan being in the D.I that much but the more I dwell on it I'm liking the fact that the baby was Ethan. It once again shows that the left-behinders always travelled back in the past, always saved Amy and Juliet always delivered a healthy Ethan (saving both his and his mothers lives)
There's been a few comments to the contrary but I honestly don't think Ethan could have been born to Amy and another father ie the suggestion that if Sawyer/ Juliet didn't intervene the Hostiles would have kidnapped her, integrated her into their society, she gives birth to Ethan 3 years later to another man and Ethan is henceforth an other.
Ethan wouldn't be Ethan without Horace as his dad. Which is kind of sad because Ben/Richard kill his dad and he doesn't have issues with that?
One last point on Ethan, it's possible that his older visage and young age could be explained by his occupation. We know he's seen off island in the recruitment of Juliet right. He'd also have had to leave the island to study as a doctor/surgeon as I doubt there's a Dharma school for that. He's coming and going from the island could potentially age him if he time travelled a bit in doing so.
27 is young for an 'excellent' surgeon.
- The latest podcast has explained the issue with Charlotte's age. It was a mistake she apparently was born in 1970 in the script but the 1979 unauthorised change was made to keep in line with Mader's date of birth. The error was not noticed in post.
I'm happy it was acknowledged as a mistake as expected, but I don't buy the reason given. The role was originally for Kirsten Bell (born 1980)who is younger than Mader . I don't believe Bell would be written as being born in 1970.
- Something I forgot to mention earlier and only a minor nitpick. I don't like that the co-pilot was killed. This opening up a big can of worms, but did an innocent man have to die so a bunch of misfits could return to the island?
I get why people were killed on flight 815, it was an accident. 316 was not, Hurley truly is the only one with a soul.
The co-pilot could have survived and continued to futility radio for help while Lapidus went trekking.
@ Nikki - You mentioned my Sun/Christian connection or lack of on your Doc Artz blog. I'm new to this site (my new favourite Lost site, love the recaps) so it's cool to know that my random musings may actually contribute.
- I also want a Dharma jumsuit. Yes they are/were sold at abc.com but they only have XXL available :(
I just wanted to give a shout out to Mr. Friendly (aka M.C. Gainey) on tonight's E.R. episode.
@SonshineMusic
'I just have random thoughts that stick in my head and won't go away :)'
Lol! Me too - and I didn't mean to sound rude but was in a hurry, about to set off for work. I've seen screen caps of that eye , and it looks remarkably like Desmond. Can't think what he was doing there though.
@ everyone else. As for whether Sawyer and Juliet know that Ben's in the DI - I am sure they must and just because they haven't mentioned it, doesn't mean they don't. I keep making this point, but that is one of the main narrative styles of Lost - that people don't mention things that in real life they would mention. If people disclosed everything they knew, the whole thing would have been over years ago.
Also, if they do know about Ben what are they going to do anyway? Sawyer clearly believes in Farraday's mantra, that was has happened has happened. And are they going to kill a child? In Sawyer's words, they are not 'savages'. If I was Juliet, I'd be takinG Ben under my wing and giving him some motherly love and attention in the hope it would prevent him from becoming a psychopath. However, psychopaths are probably born that way in the first place.
I've just been reading a book about psychopaths so I'm a little obsessed, but it also got me thinking about the fact that Sawyer has killed an innocent man in cold blood, and now he's everyone's hero. It's the classic stereotype of a psychopath turned hero (see the Dirty Dozen) and is highly unlikely in real life.
Still love Sawyer though.
nikki,
just a nitpick, maybe it was mentioned after all these comments that were made, I didn't read them all. But I thought that maybe during the drive that Jin drove the 815ers to Sawyer that maybe Hurley would have mentioned to Jin "oh yeah, Sun was with us and dude your a father of a healthy baby Ji Yeon." Wouldn't that be one of the first thing you would have said to Jin after thinking he was dead? I would. What conversations were going on during that bus trip to get to Sawyer? Are the writers making us believe that after the O6 survivor's return to the island recognized Jin and vice versa that they would have said anything to each other. Come on.
Now the truth can be told:
My sweetheart bought me a Dharma jumpsuit for Valentine's Day and I've been wearing it every Wednesday and Thursday since then.
Geek Pride! Dharmaz in da HOUZE. Yo. ; ]
Made to through 136 comments :)
Yes, Ilana's conversation with Locke taking place the following day. Someone must have found Ben and the outriggers and paddled them over to the Ajirees beach. Ben delivered to infirmary, etc. So, did Ben lay out there all night?
Is there something in the bag besides a sandwhich young Ben?
I agree with those above that we have seen alternate or un-course corrected time line. Danielle is not saved by Jin and she never changes the transmission. The number we hear are not Hurley's so they would be original DI recording, and Others never move into Dharmaville.
Also, if you look closely at the recruit photos in the processing center, the one that is askew on the wall has Kate and Hurley and several of the other recruits from 77, or they are dead ringers for each other. Sledgeweb has screen cap. We've seen may look-a-likes or 'twins' of our Losties in backgrounds, album covers, behind cameras, etc. Just something I noticed.
Also, sorry I can't pick out your post name, there was a theory about Ben and may he has similar gift as Walt, in that he has dreams. He does mention "I used to have dreams too." to Locke. Maybe some of the Ben flashbacks were his dreams. Maybe like Locke he saw a plane! ooooohh.
Last comment about Ethan. I would suggest revisiting the mobisodes or Missing Pieces. They are all starting to fall into place. Ethan under Juliet's house fixing plumbing, "a work in progress," made the connection for me.
Tks Nik for the recap. Namaste
Reading the discussion in the posts about Ben's knowledge of events both past and maybe future makes me wonder: is the reason why Ben has said "so?" on the occasions where people have turned to him in horror and commented on people dying (i.e., when Locke said Keamy dying would cause the mercenaries' ship to blow up, when Jack told Ben innocent people were going to die when 316 crashed) because he knows all of them are in a time loop and that as they adjust things in the past, the deaths that are happening in that moment may not happen the next time around? I've wondered about that. Part of me thinks Ben reacts that way because he's indifferent to the fate of people who aren't pieces on the island chess board, but when those scenes have happened, I've wondered each time if Ben is blase about people dying because he knows those deaths will not happen once the past is changed/fixed.
Or maybe Ben's just a heartless psychopath.
Which as I'm thinking this through brings to mind a question for everyone: how does time travel of the people who went back to 1977 fit into the struggle for supremacy between Ben and Widmore? It doesn't appear so far that Ben or Widmore can travel to the past. Both of them know time travel has occurred. So how are they using that knowledge in their private war? Is it about giving the time travelers information to create certain biases or nudges, and then hoping that pushes them in the past to their desired course of events? Neither has given direct information to the time travelers. Maybe there are rules governing Ben and Widmore about what they can reveal to the time travelers in order to change the past.
Also, does anyone have theories regarding whether Ben and Widmore have been in multiple time loops where they are screwing with the time travelers' heads until things are shifted so that one of them has a clear victory, or are they only getting one shot at the time travel loop to beat out the other?
I guess there's no way to answer these questions because Lost hasn't given us enough information to do so as of yet, but these are the things I'm wondering.
Ok... I don't know if it has already been mentioned, but here's my input:
- Firstly, the scene where Jack is given his "workman" jumpsuit, is oddly familiar - it is exactly like the scene where Rojer (Ben's dad) gets given his "workman" jumpsuit. The looks on their faces are almost exactly the same!
- Ok, so the reason why Ben is not on the island in 1977 is because he existed ON the island in 1977. Why isn't Sun in 1977 also - was she on the island at that time as well? Is that the case for the other passengers as well. It just doesn't add up - why did Hurley, kate & Jack land in 1977, whilst Sun didn't? There has to be a reason...
I just stumbeld across quite the perfect explanation for Sun being left in 2007 on a german LOST board: Ji Yeon!
Of course... Sun was pregnant when she left the island, so she formed a biological entity with her unborn baby (wow, this sounds strange, but you know what I mean). So, the two may be interconnected and have to stay in the same time. Ji Yeon wasn't on the plane and couldn't jump in time - and so Sun couldn't either. Makes sense to me.
@ myself! 'If I was Juliet, I'd be takinG Ben under my wing and giving him some motherly love and attention in the hope it would prevent him from becoming a psychopath'
I've just had a thought about my earlier comment - didn't someone say about the adult Ben having a thing for Juliet because 'she looks just like her'? ...so maybe Juliet does become a mother figure to him. All very Oedipal.
I think Ethan was the last child to be born on the Island, and then something happened after that prevented women from having their babies, and causing them to die with the embryos. This would explain why he was so obsessed with Claire's case, and, assuming that he was telling the truth in the mobisode "Jack, Meet Ethan. Ethan? Jack" that his wife and child died in childbirth, he had an even stronger reason to abduct Claire and act on his own.
Charlotte being born on the Island before Ethan wouldn't be a problem then.
By the way, is it at all natural that Amy took the baby outside and took a nap when she gave birth to him only one night before?! Is she so ignorant that she doesn't fear for her baby from the cold/air/influenza? But Juliet would surely warn her. Or does this have to do with the Island's healing/protective power? And did the boy look like 1-day old?!
Hurley: What if they start asking us
questions we can't answer, like, uh, who's president in 1977?
The American President in 1977 was Jimmy Carter. I frankly don't know much about him, but maybe our American friends here can find some hidden clue?
Hisham - I thought that line from Hurley was a little lame. I tried to defend it to my husband saying that Hurley probably hadn't been born yet, but that is not a good reason to not know past presidents. I would have worried about information relevant to the island and the DI that they did not know. It just kind of perpetuated that Hurley is not that bright, but has a good heart.
I have a question: If this week's manifestation of Christian was a result of Smokey, as has been theorized, are all of the manifestations of Christian on the island part of Smokey? What determines which manifestations are truly Christian or smokey? Any thoughts?
@ Missing Georgia: Here's a question to answer your question. Is Christian a physical manifestation of Smokey, or is Smokey the physical manifestation of Jacob, who has chosen Christian as his current (how funny that word seems in the mythos of Lost) avatar?
batcabbage: That is a good question. I am led to believe that in this episode Christian was a manifestation of Smokey due to the smoke seen at the beginning of the seen. Has anyone ever seen Jacob? I know that Locke heard him, but if he did see him, he didn't look like Christian at that time, otherwise he would have said something when Christian appeared at FDW. Do we know that Ben saw him, or did he just hear him as well? I do like your question. It has a lot to think about.
Missing Georgia and batcabbage: Excellent questions. I'm not sure I'm correct on the suggestion that Christian is a manifestation of anything. Because in other ways, I believe he's as alive as Locke is, and by coming to the island in the pine box he was restored to life. So I think I misspoke there. Instead, I think the two are linked in some way, and I like the idea of Smokey and Jacob being intertwined.
I think a text that needs to be reread in the context of Lost is Paradise Lost. I know there's been lots said linking the two, but between the biblical allusions and the idea of good versus evil and predestination versus free will (Satan believed in free will, and was cast out of Heaven for it, and he becomes the quasi-hero of the poem), I wonder how many answers are in there?
Last time I read that book was probably 15 years ago. Eep. Maybe it's something I'll reread this fall in time for season 6. Unless Sawyer goes and reads it in an episode before then, in which case I'll have to do it now. ;)
Hisham: The American President in 1977 was Jimmy Carter. I frankly don't know much about him, but maybe our American friends here can find some hidden clue?
You know where my mind immediately went when Hurley said that? Carter building homes for Habitat for Humanity, which is what Sayid was doing when "Jeremy Bentham" approached him. ;) But I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.
Is Carter the only US President to win the Nobel Peace Prize? That could be a clue.
Or it could have just been a joke to show how Hurley -- being born in 1977 -- would know nothing about the society or culture of that particular year.
Just a note of interest: I remembered Season 3 episode entitled 'Enter 77'. And now the losties entered The Dharma Initiative in 1977.
@ Missing Georgia and Nik: It's drunk now and I'm late (at least, it is where i am in the world), but I think that both of these points of view are equally valid. In fact, I'd be happy if it worked out either way: whether Locke is following path that Christian took (dead then alive on the island, fresh from a pine box and complete with some impossibly white tennis shoes) making Christian 'alive', so to speak, or that Christian is a manisfestation of smokey, or even that Christian is the face that smokey, the manifestation of Jacob, wears when he's gabbing with the Losties. Matter of fact, it's all too complicated and i'm sleepy. Here's hoping there's another hundred excellent comments here to read when I drag myself out of bed. :)
I am inclined to believe that Christian may be "the Holy Spirit" that is sent to help the disciples or followers. He can take on physical form, but he is part of the Island trinity. At least that is my theory for now.
The man to whom Amelia spoke harshly at book club was named Adam. Ethan was outside, working on Juliet's pipes, at the time.
I'm intrigued, though, by the Amelia/Amy resonances.
[On the topic of Christian]
-Remember that, as the execs mentioned, Christian is his own character and, in the writer's room, is considered an 'undead'. His mention that he can speak for Jacob makes me believe that he his a separate entity from him.
-Also, we have seen a physical representation of Jacob once at least in Man Behind the Curtain. I know it wasn't anyone specific (crew member) but it means that some individuals can see him (Ben, Locke).
As for Smokey, it could very well be that Christian is a representation of it, as Yemi was. It fits with the undead theory. It could also be a manifestation of Jacob (I doubt that one). But I don't think that the Jacob-Smokey-Christian link is really strong as it would put Jacob and Christian in the same entity group.
I like the idea that Christian is an equivalent to the Holy Spirit.
A random question, does anyone know the make of those white tennis shoes. I need new ones and I'd love to get those.
Georgia: If this week's manifestation of Christian was a result of Smokey, as has been theorized, are all of the manifestations of Christian on the island part of Smokey?
I think we've seen up to three distinct kinds of apparition, possibly even four or -- mulling it over -- five, but probably fewer:
* (1) Smokey taking the form of someone, like when Danielle faces off against not-her-crewmates, or maybe when Eko sees Yemi.
* (2) The Island and/or Jacob manifesting as a person to guide the castaways. Whether it appears as Christian to Jack out of familiarity and then to others that way for consistency I don't know. Yemi may also have been the Island. And it's possible that it appears mostly as Christian because of a special connection he has with the Island or is even some facet of it or Jacob.
* (3) A dead person reanimating either in their own repaired body or in some facsimile of it, as with Claire before she knew she was dead — if she was indeed killed in the house — and now Locke. It could be that this is also done on a temporary basis when a spirit has something to say, like Horace or Yemi again or Ben's mother, if those aren't examples of the previous categories.
* (4) The mental projection of a character to warn another, specifically Walt when he appeared to Shannon and later to left-for-dead Locke.
* (5) The mental projection of a character to speak to him/herself in some way, less a pure manifestation of the Island or Smokey and more of the Island or maybe even Smokey engendering some kind of psychokinetic power in the castaways for communication or even self-enlightenment. This would be an alternate explanation for Walt, for Yemi, for Ben's mother when she appeared to him years ago, maybe even Hurley's imaginary friend Dave.
Maybe it's always (2) or even always (1). But I'm pretty sure that we're to believe (3) is its own deal, because Locke doesn't sense that he's merely an aspect of the Island or Smokey or Jacob. And if Smokey isn't just an extension of the Island, then (1) and (2) are different things; it certainly does seem like what Danielle encountered with Jin in the past was less benign than Christian is, or at least more interested in trying to pass as a person and less as a calm otherworldly presence giving guidance like Christian does (for good or bad, its own aims or altruism, we don't know yet).
What muddies the waters to me is how at first Christian appeared to Jack and led him along but didn't communicate. Then we saw Ben's mother appear to him in the same ghostly, fleeting way, but she ended up talking to him. And later on Christian became a total chatterbox with a more corporeal presence, holding the torch under the well with Locke and now handing the photo to Sun. I thought early on that the appearance of Walt, speaking to Shannon, was different than Christian, but maybe not. Yet Walt didn't get brought to the Island deceased, as Locke, Christian, and Yemi did.
I'm not sure that it's playing fair to have more than one kind of incarnation of Christian, i.e. him really coming back to life on the Island like Locke but sometimes also being Smokey taking form, because that doesn't really give us a fair shot at figuring out how many kinds of manifestations there are, let alone the reasons behind them. Although if Smokey is a wholly separate being on the Island but not part of it, and it has different priorities than the Island or Jacob, which I think of as intertwined, then we have the possibility of a showdown between an actual resurrected Christian speaking on behalf of Jacob and a fake Christian manifested by Smokey, perhaps with castaways caught in the middle trying to figure out whom to trust.
I'm never going to get anything on this show written up for my own blog, at this rate, but I'd rather have these theories discussed by as many people who care as possible. 8^)
@ batcabbage
lol! I am drunk too as it is also late in my part of the world.
@ Benny 'A random question, does anyone know the make of those white tennis shoes. I need new ones and I'd love to get those.'
Lol. lol. lol. Aren't you worried about yourself? Still lol.
Oh and @Blam - that looks like a fascinating post but I'll have to sober up somewhat before I read it.
I can't wait for the first time we hear Sawyer call young Ben "Harry Potter" and the kid has no idea what he's talking about, by the way.
Frank: Nikki, build the runway... people will come.
Y'know, I was about to say that "The Runway" was a good title for the forum (to keep discussing the show when it's over), but obviously it should be called "Back to the Island".
To Hisham: I think Hurley's line was just humor, not totally at his expense. If Hurley thought about it, he'd figure out it was Carter, but even less so than the fact that 1977 seems longer ago for Hurley than for some of us it's just him talking before he thinks.
Humanebean: There are a LOT of continuity issues in this episode. ... Most prominent for me was during the New Inductee 'class photo' when we see Hurley turn to Kate and say "Nama-what?" as we hear the shutter on the camera click. Yet, in the framed photo, Hurley is looking straight into the camera.
I noticed this too and couldn't believe they would screw something like that up when the transition from one to the other is so intentionally prominent.
BC: Here's hoping there's another hundred excellent comments here to read when I drag myself out of bed. :)
I'm doing my best!
So I have a big theory I'm still working on, but also this smaller one tied to the recent discussion.
What if Amy, and later Ethan, aren't recruited by the Others... because they already belong? I just re-watched the scene where Sawyer, et al. come upon Amy in the clearing (all I had time for) and I admit it's not easy to explain why the Others would be treating her like that. Maybe they were "new" Others (unlikely) who didn't know her and thought she was real Dharma and not undercover, or maybe the scene was a set-up to draw out Dharma patrols for some good old-fashioned mini-massacre, but Paul was dead and Amy's screaming was awfully convincing. Still, I think back to that scene where Amy takes the ankh from Paul's body and muse on the fact that Dharma is more, even if only superficially, Indian, whereas Smokey's hole had hieroglyphics and the statue is Egyptian, or at least quasi- or proto-Egyptian.
Benny: If Sawyer & Co. hadn't saved Amy, could she have been taken by the Natives and been integrated? In which case she might have had a son with one of them and her choice to name him Ethan would have reflected the Ethan we know. Now she has a son with Horace and she still names him Ethan, though he's not a member of the Natives.
This is a very creative and yet likelier explanation, which says something about this show. 8^) I didn't hear the producers' statement about no diverging or alternate timelines firsthand, so I'm not sure what if any kind of wiggle room it had, but while it wouldn't bother me in the least if the timeline was mutable it would bother me if the producers were intentionally misleading the theorizers.
Blam@ Re: Amy already being one of the hostiles. The more I think about it the more plausible it seems. I mean when you think about it, knowing the habits of the others in the future, it would be highly unlikely if they DIDN'T have a spy amongs the Dharma folks.
Blam & Scott: I know I'm in a vast minority on this one, but since the first time I saw that scene, I've believed the Others didn't actually kill Paul. She never says he did, but Sawyer and Co. just believe they did. But watch it again, and one of the hostiles leans forward very slowly to remove a gun from Amy's feet. They're moving around her tentatively like she's dangerous. The only reason she's got her hands in the air is because she's outnumbered. I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking there's a chance she killed Paul.
@Nikki: at first I thought that was a strong possibility, but I think the hostile removes the gun from Paul's holster. Since he was security, it would make sense he had a gun.
It's still possible she is an other, but I'm not sold either way on who killed Paul.
Nikki: I'm not 100% on this, but I'm thinking there's a chance she killed Paul.
I think it's at least as likely that Amy killed Paul as that it was that the Others did because of the feud with Dharma or that she & Paul were Others and something went wrong during a pow-wow.
What I couldn't figure out was why, aside from the theory that someone put forth here about her & Horace wanting to get rid of Paul so they could be together and/or Horace arranging for it on his own because he had the hots for Amy.
Just as I write this, however, I wonder if maybe Amy isn't, or wasn't, an Other but Paul was, and either she secretly followed him when he went to meet his people or he was bringing her to meet them because he wanted to convert her, and she shot him in rage or just by accident.
Maybe Ethan grows up to join the Others because he's rebelling against his mother in some fashion, or, heck, maybe a manifestation of Paul appeared to her three years after his death and Ethan is Paul's kid.
@Blam If Paul was an Other it wouldn't certainly be the simplest explanation of why they wanted his body back.
I'm typing too fast, of course I mean't "would" not "wouldn't"
Good catch, Scott. Later, folks... Errands to run, writing to do, and then the BSG finale plus the supposedly transitional episode of Dollhouse tonight, hopefully watching with lotsa friends.
When I said "Good catch, Scott," of course I meant your observation and not your acknowledgment of the typo!
@Blam: be careful, Dollhouse is airing during the first half of BSG. Though I'm sure you were aware of that.
Blam: Wow, you have me convinced now. I think you've come up with the perfect explanation for what happened: Paul was an Other, and he integrated himself into the DI. He married Amy, and then she found out he was a hostile and killed him. The hostiles, immediately knowing one of their own had been murdered, showed up and were about to kill Amy as retribution before Sawyer and everyone showed up.
And, as Scott pointed out, THAT is why they needed Paul's body back.
Another possibility is he told Amy who he really was, she was very upset about it, and then he killed himself, which is why she's half in shock throughout this episode. But she could have been in shock either way. Regardless, I don't think the Others killed him, but you've come up with a great theory here!
There is no alternate timeline. Everything that is supposed to happen, happened, as proclaimed by Faraday. If the losties tried to change history, something will interfere. For example, if Sayid tries to kill young Ben, maybe the gun will not work, eg. when Jack tries to shoot John Locke in Season 4 or Michael trying to commit suicide. Because it was not supposed to happen. Even when someone manages to stop something from happening, there will always be a course correction, as explained by Hawkings. The past and future events are written, and no one can stop it. Except Alvar Hanso. Hahaha!
@MW: that's all well but how do we know that Daniel is absolutely right. He may actually be wrong and the will of the island is that time correction has to be made. We just won't know for certain until the episode called Whatever Happened, Happened.
As for Jack trying to shoot Locke, the answer is that there are no bullets in the gun, as told by Locke.
Benny, thanks for correcting my mistake. There are just too many guns in the show. And yes, can't wait for the episode: 'Whatever Happened, Happened.'
As I read through a majority of comments, I have noticed people explaining away Ben can't be in 1977 because his younger self is there. Well that can not be a true reason , because as Sawyer and company are jumping trough time they are on the island as the same time as their "otherselves" when the y saw Kate helping Claire with the birth. They were all on the island at the same time. So there must be another explaination coming down the ropes in some future eps.
@Josh: I agree that there has to be more to it than just Ben was already on the island. But it's still possible to consider the previous jumps to be erratic and without much sense to them (a record skipping).
Now that the record has stopped skipping, you can control the tunes playing. Which would mean you wouldn't put Ben back in 1977; i.e. you wouldn't put two first chair violins in the same orchestra piece would you?
I think that Daniel's record analogy (which was also represented in the first scene of this season) is well suited to the time travel aspects here.
I wish they would go ahead and explain Miles' significance on the show. He seems to have a very significant gift (talking to the dead/spirits) and there has not been as much emphasis on this. I know there were some moments, the boar and when they were running from the 50s Widmore group, but you would think that he would have lots of information from the undead of the island. I thought that he may be the baby that they showed at the beginning of the season at Chang's house. Does anyone have any thoughts?
@Missing Georgia: I like that you bring up the baby from the season opener. If it is in fact Miles, it would mean that one can live in the same time and space as his younger self.
Benny: If that baby is Miles, then I think he may not have been born yet on the island. If he has been, then he can obviously be in the same time as his younger self and this would shoot a hole into the theory of why Ben and Sun are not there. On DocArtz's site, some have said maybe the baby was Sun, but I am pretty sure that the season opener says that the baby was a boy. If the baby is Miles, it would be interesting to see older Miles and younger Miles at the same time. Maybe the baby is named after Miles, like in Back to the Future. So he is basically named after himself.
@MissingGeorgia: one's take on it all depends on when you believe the scene is taking place. My opinion is that the baby has been born.
-I say this because the baby seems relatively old (as in not newborn) so he was born off-island as is customary with DHARMA and was brought back to the island, and we know Chang is there in 1977.
-Also, the orientation film Chang is recording if for the Arrow, which already existed prior 1974 as Horace has the Arrow jumpsuit in Curtain/LaFleur.
-More so, since Daniel is on the island during the opener, I assume that Miles also is, until evidence of the contrary. If this is correct then Miles and the baby coexist.
I checked and the opening line regarding the baby is: "The baby's awake. It's your turn." So there actually isn't any reference to the sex of the baby...
Thanks, Benny. Good points. I do not have quite the memory that you and others here have for all the details.
@ Anonymous: Ethan wouldn't be Ethan without Horace as his dad. Which is kind of sad because Ben/Richard kill his dad and he doesn't have issues with that?
Of course, if Ethan was kidnapped as a baby by the hostiles, he might never know that he wasn't the son of an Other, kind of like Alex didn't know that Ben wasn't her real father.
@ Ali Bags: didn't find it rude :) I love getting feedback about my random theories :) Just read Nikki's recap of "Man Behind the Curtain" and discovered that there actually was someone sitting in Jacob's chair, so that kind of puts a hole in part of my theory anyway.
I still think it's an interesting fact that Ben's mother died in childbirth, he became obsessed with her, and then after he took over the Others the women started having problems carrying to term. hmmmmmmm.....
@ DeborahB: Maybe there are rules governing Ben and Widmore about what they can reveal to the time travelers in order to change the past.
Perhaps these are part of the "rules" that Ben said Widmore changed?
@ Ali Bags: (again :) I've just had a thought about my earlier comment - didn't someone say about the adult Ben having a thing for Juliet because 'she looks just like her'? ...so maybe Juliet does become a mother figure to him. All very Oedipal.
I think that is a very, very good thought. Very creepy and VEEERRRRYY Lostian :)
I've read every comment and as usual everyone's beat me to the punch. I don't get to blog right away and couple that with being home sick today, my head isn't processing too much right now.
I do have one thing for Nikki though: http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/desmond-jr-spaghetti-tank/233977419
Cafepress rocks!! I may have to buy some of the stuff they have on there! :)
Jazzy: LOLZ!! Oh my god, I love that shirt!! :) That's going on my wishlist. And yes, cafepress is the bestest. I've bought SO many things there, mostly for the weirdness. My kid was the only toddler in her daycare with t-shirts with Nick Drake's picture or "Slayerette" written on it. Oh, and the "Hunky Dory 1971" shirt. Still a classic. :)
@ Jazzygirl: haha love that site. Here's one that has become me...
http://t-shirts.cafepress.com/item/lost-obsession-tshirt/37704605
They only forgot one thing on the list... "You set your homepage to Nik at Nite" :)
Rewatching LaFLeur and paying attention to the scene with Paul, Amy and the Hostiles, when Amy is crying and on her knees she's clearly calling for Paul to talk to her.
It makes me believe that she definitely did not want him to die, which would leave either the Hostiles or himself as being the cause of his death.
Namaste:
There's a few things we need to establish. *These are the facts:
Frank is flying Ajira Airways flight 316 at night, in Jan 2008 (What I will refer to as present time, the present time in the narrative of LOST) *A flash*occurs*sending Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid to 1977. *Post-Flash the plane is flying during the day, and the co-pilot has a WTF? moment, while Frank is simply trying to land the plane. *Once they have crash landed the co-pilot has been impaled by tree branch. *We see the title card "Thirty Years Earlier". *
This is why everyone is stuck on the idea that the Ajira Airways passengers are in present time, late Jan 2008. *But the title card really means to say "we are about to show you 30 years before this moment", not "when" they ended up.*I think it's completely rational to say that the flash from Night to Day insinuates that Flight 316 traveled through time, or , in even simpler terms, Ajira flight 316 is not "when" it was before the flash. *So I think it is false to assume that the Ajira passengers landed in Jan 2008. *
If you swallow that, then there are two ways we can go. *We are before 2008 or we are after 2008. *
Arguments for before Jan 2008:
-The dock and surrounding area is full of old dharma stuff, kinda like post-purge looking and note: no sub.
-The processing center's sign is swaying against the building while dharma signs are nailed to a few doors.
-This does not really resemble the 2004 Othersville days of yesteryear. The others used the sub and this area regularly, juliet came in the sub. I highly doubt they would have left up the pictures of the people they had just gassed and thrown into a giant ditch.
Arguments for after Jan 2008:
- The runway is finished which we assume was Ben's construction project, we see Sawyer and Kate working on it in season 3 when they were sleeping in polar bear cages.
The runway kinda seals the deal for me as a clear indication that we are post Jan 2008. How post? Damned if i know. A post where the dharma initiative was back in business or at least trying to appear that way. And Obviously from the look of things, it didn't work out...again.
Was someone trying to play dharma with old props to keep up a lie?
OK, here's a tidbit of information...
The song we hear at the end of '316' and during the DHARMA photo-taking in 'Namaste' is a Geronimo Jackson remix-if-you-will of The Donkeys' Excelsior Lady called Dharma Lady and is available for free on iTunes (US only).
The injuries that Ben had when Locke saw him with the other injured 316 passengers were far worse than he would have suffered after being whacked with an oar. His face was badly beaten and covered in blood as he lay on the cot, yet when we saw him in the scene with Sun and Frank at the outriggers, he looked just as he did when he boarded the plane (a few cuts and bruises from whatever happened to him at the marina in California before they boarded the plane). Sun knocked him out, but it didn't cause all of the injuries we saw later, and based on Frank's talk with the passengers on the beach after the crash (when Ben snuck off and Sun/Frank followed), the Locke scene must have happened after the paddle whacking scene. Right? WHAT (or more correctly, WHO) happened to him between those two scenes?
Nik: Thanks!
FC: You're right that it's dark before the flash and light after, so that the plane may not land in exactly the same time it had been. But it may still be a matter of only days or hours instead of years. We can actually arrive at the time period for Lapidus, Sun, etc. via triangulation, because it's 1977 at the Dharma camp when Jack, Kate, etc. arrive. So if, after the flash, it's "Thirty Years Earlier" when we jump to that group, then it's 2007 for the crash survivors.
Dave: I noticed that, too, and either it's an egregious continuity error, like Hurley turning when the photo was taken but not looking that way in the photo, or he indeed must get beaten up between Sun whacking him with the oar and Locke seeing him on the ground, looking like he went a few rounds with Joe Frazier and was then stung by a hive of bees.
Benny: I just downloaded the "Dharma Lady" single. Thanks for the heads-up!
I think the post storm day and night shift is analogous to the post storm day and night shift experienced in the chopper in The Constant. It doesn't seem to phase Lapidus as he's been through it and expected a few 'wonky' bumps during the ride.
batcabbage: I devoured the first Y book last night before watching the BSG finale (seriously, how geekily awesome was my night??) and I've already ordered the rest of the series. I LOVE IT!
Thanks for the download information, Benny.
I also agree with Benny's assessment that the night to day shift with flight 316 is similar to "The Constant" and is probably only a shift of hours or days, not years.
Finding music, it's what I do!
And for those outside of the US (such as myself), here is a region-free mp3 download for the song. It looks sketchy but it's a legitimate version.
http://www.divshare.com/download/launch/6839955-12b
Blam: Your description of Ben's injuries was hilarious. :) You also pointed out the discrepancy in the photo, which was weird but I didn't think much about it at the time. It seemed like they deliberately showed the photo, then the Hurley head turn - like there was supposed to be a difference....maybe similar to the changed photo frames on the wall of the house Miles went to as a ghost buster. Hmmmm......
Does anyone really think that Sayid is going to kill a young Ben? We know it doesn't happen because "whatever happened, happened." Even though he is a trained assassin how many kids has he killed? I would think that would be hard, even if you know what he is going to do in the future. Do you think he kills Ben's girlfriend instead? Who else do you think he may shoot?
@ Dave: Sun knocked him out, but it didn't cause all of the injuries we saw later, and based on Frank's talk with the passengers on the beach after the crash (when Ben snuck off and Sun/Frank followed), the Locke scene must have happened after the paddle whacking scene. Right? WHAT (or more correctly, WHO) happened to him between those two scenes?
Here's a crazy thought my sister came up with..... Maybe in 1977 Sayid injures young Ben. Doesn't kill him, but seriously wounds him, and that is the reason that 2007/latertime/whatever Ben looks so much worse and is completely unconscious...... Any takers?
@ Nik: Yay! Glad you liked it. You'll be hooked now. I'm about to watch the BSG finale. Had to avoid your post on it, so I'm fresh when I go in. So sad that there's no more!
Thought you would like that, Nikki. ;)
Sonshine: what a great shirt! I love lists like that about certain things because I'm always guilty of them all (like the marching band one in high school! LOL!). I may have to buy it.
I have to watch this episode again now that I've read everyone's comments. But I am inclined to believe that the 316 flight time jump from night/day is like the blip in the helicopter. I am getting nervous that the writers are making this too confusing. It's great to chat about with you all but it's also a bit frustrating because we need MORE than ONE hour to truly follow what the hell is going on.
YES, I immediately noticed the thing with Hurley's head turning in that scene yet not in the picture. I thought to myself "wow that was really sloppy of the prop dept." Now you guys have me wondering if it was intentional.
And I also remember thinking that Ben looked WAY more beat up in the barracks than just a whack on the back of the head.
Dave: You also pointed out the discrepancy in the photo, which was weird but I didn't think much about it at the time. It seemed like they deliberately showed the photo, then the Hurley head turn - like there was supposed to be a difference.
I can't see how it would be intentional. Once that gang is in the past at the Dharma compound, if the past is being changed, then that's the change, so the example would be a photo without them turning into a photo with, even if the viewers were the only ones aware of it, and I don't think that we've seen those photos before at all, let alone in another version.
Missing Georgia: Does anyone really think that Sayid is going to kill a young Ben?
Hmm... No. Well, maybe. I did think the delivery of that line was kinda loaded, however. And it could have been just end-of-episode revelation melodrama. On the other hand... Perhaps the folks who think that the falling out between Sayid and Ben back in the States pre-flight was fake (up 'til now I wasn't one of them) are right. And perhaps Ben gave Sayid a message for young himself in the eventuality that Ben didn't, or couldn't, see himself, uh, himself. Perhaps he even remembered Sayid telling him something and is, like some people opine, actively trying to fulfill and/or change the timeline.
SonshineMusic: Maybe in 1977 Sayid injures young Ben. Doesn't kill him, but seriously wounds him, and that is the reason that 2007/latertime/whatever Ben looks so much worse and is completely unconscious.
I guess that would jibe with the speculation that Ethan shooting Locke in the leg is what caused his leg to go out in the same geographic area back in the first season. Although if you think about all the violence perpetrated on that island, all sorts of people would be moaning and groaning all the time when they wandered into an area where their younger or older selves had been roughed up. No offense to your sister in the least, but I think I'll believe it the "You Can Be Your Own Voodoo Doll Through Time Travel" Theory of Spontaneous Injury when I see Jack on his old beach getting phantom appendicitis pain. Which of course will probably happen next week.
201st comment!!!
Yes, I'm still a child. And even better, thank you Blam, for emailing me to let me know I had to jump on here quickly to make the 201st post. I LOVE that my readers also know what a child I am. LOLZ! Your email made me laugh out loud... but not for too long, because I had to come on here and post the 201st post!! :)
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