Wednesday, May 06, 2009

Lost 5.15 "Follow the Leader"

Alpert: “There’s something different about you.”
Locke: “I have a purpose now.”


WOW. What an episode. I loved it; it definitely created the bridge between the second half of the season and the finale (which, if we go by the show’s history, promises to be pretty mindblowing). From the focus shifting back to Locke to Richard Alpert appearing in all of the timelines to the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet quadrangle to Ben to Jacob to SAYID!!, I loved it.

“He’s kind of an... advisor. And he’s had that job for a very, very long time.”
Oh, Richard. How I love you. We almost lost the guy in season 4 when he starred in “Cane,” but now he’s back, and he’s been a major character all season. In this episode (which is one of many this season that will be sure to drive more casual fans batty with confusion) he appears in 1977 and 2007, looking EXACTLY THE SAME. Love him. I still can’t figure out why he looked different with the shaggy hair in “The Man Behind the Curtain,” but I’m starting to wonder if the writers hadn’t quite figured out that Richard would not only stay the same age forever, but he would go through all of time with the same haircut, same blue shirt with rolled sleeves, same black pants. Well... unless he’s showing up at John Locke’s foster mom’s house or trying to recruit Juliet. Then he throws on a suit jacket.

This episode is the first to suggest outright that Alpert is not a leader, but an advisor (which in Shakespeare usually makes him smarter than the leader, but certainly not as powerful). Richard is clearly not omnipotent. He was Widmore’s advisor, lost faith in him; became Ben’s advisor, lost faith in him; now he’s Locke’s, and he’s losing faith in him after only a few minutes. I loved that we got to see him approach Locke in the jungle, and it finally explains his weird response, “You told me... well, you WILL tell me.”

“All the misery that we’ve been through... we’d just wipe it clean.”
The scene between Kate and bloody-nose Jack in the tent was brilliant. You know, I make fun of Jack a lot (yes, I was super-gleeful when his aptitude test showed he was best suited for janitorial work) and I’ve accused him of being a blowhard know-it-all holier-than-thou SHUT UP JACK... ahem. Sorry. BUT, Jack has always been an extremely complex character, and a lot of that stems from the way Matthew Fox plays him. Fox’s performances often get hidden by the stellar acting of Michael Emerson, Terry O’Quinn, and Jeremy Davies, but Fox has been amazing on this series from season 1. The scene between Jack and Kate is filled with pain, and the way his face lights up with the fact that he could fix things, he could bring everyone on Flight 815 back to life if he could just do this one thing and make it all go away... was heartbreaking. Kate looks at him in shock that he would give up his life with her to do it. Last week when we saw a clip of him saying this in the preview, we, too, were shocked, knowing that so many bad things would have happened if the crash never occurred: Hurley would believe he was cursed; Charlie would be a heroin addict; Claire would give up Aaron; Kate would be arrested; Jin and Sun would be miserable; Jack would have to face his mother, who half-blamed him for Christian’s death; Locke would be a paraplegic; Nikki and Paulo would still be alive. By living through all of this, they’ve become different people; by most accounts, better people. Earlier in the season, Locke argues that he wouldn’t go to his former self banging away at the hatch door and screaming, because he needed to live through that confusion and anger to become the person he is today. But on the flip side, there were 324 people aboard that plane. Of those, 71 survived the crash. By 2007, the only Oceanic people still alive are the 6 who leave on the helicopter, and Sawyer and Locke on the island. Rose, Bernard, and the redshirts have all disappeared. Is it not worth sacrificing the personal growth of a handful of characters to bring back all those people?

Not that Kate is thinking about any of this. Her only response is, “Oh my god, you would give up our amazing whirlwind romance that has meant the world to me to bring hundreds of people back to LIFE?!” (Ok, I’m paraphrasing.) But the truth is, there really is no “you and me” when it comes to her and Jack. She slept with Sawyer. Jack saw it and his heart was ripped in two. He tried to get over it. Every time he thought he’d made a step forward with Kate, he moved back again when she went to Sawyer. So he fell for Juliet, but he really still loved Kate. (Sawyer similarly never knew where he stood with Kate, so don’t worry, I’m not taking a Skate point-of-view on this one.) Off the island, he tried to make a go of it, but fell apart again when his addictions took over, and his paranoia stepped in. Even from the island, he felt that Sawyer had edged in on his relationship with Kate. Since the crash, he’s had his heart broken over and over; he’s been forced into a leadership role that he didn’t want, only to be questioned again and again; he’s lost most of his people he vowed to save; he got off the island but his demons followed him; he’s been miserable and addicted and obsessed and depressed ever since. Things haven’t exactly been a walk in the park for Jack. Having to deal with his mother’s disdain when he lands safely on Oceanic 815 pales in comparison to what he’s been through as a result of the crash.

But even then, at the heart of Jack’s actions is his need to fix things, to fix people, to fix situations. My heart went out to him in this scene, and I really felt for him.

Kate, on the other hand, seems completely shocked at Jack’s words, and when he says, “enough of it was” misery, she sits back, eyes welling up, and silent. Has it only NOW occurred to her how difficult Jack’s life has been for the past 3 years?

Highlights:
• Ben muttering on the beach in anger. “Afraid I’ll stage a COUP??”
• Sawyer, while Radzinsky is beating him: “I want my lawyer.”
• The entire exchange between Chang and Hurley. I was in stitches. “Chang: What year were you born? Hurley: 19...31. Chang: You’re 46? Hurley: Yes. Yes I am. Chang: You fought in the Korean War? Hurley: There’s... no such thing.” That line was priceless. It’s as if Hurley always thought M*A*S*H was based on a made-up war. (Even better was the way Miles glanced at Jin -- the Korean -- and Jin looked at Hurley with disdain.)
• Ben, watching Locke watch himself: “This must be quite the out-of-body experience.” Locke: “Something like that.”
• SAYID!!! (I could hear redeem cheering from here...)
• Sawyer telling Juliet they’re going to invest in Microsoft and then bet on the Cowboys in the 78 Super Bowl. FINALLY someone is using this time travel thing to their advantage!
• The smug look on Ben’s face when he tells Richard that he tried to kill Locke.
• Sawyer calling the guy on the sub “Nemo.”

Did You Notice?:
• Jeremy Davies plays dead REALLY well. The guy doesn’t even flinch. Every time they showed his body it made me sad...
• Eloise asks if Jack and Kate came there with Daniel, and Jack says, “yes.” Look at Kate’s face when he says that. It’s like she’s screaming, “oh my GOD, shut UP!” on the inside.
• When they first showed Richard Alpert putting together the ship in a bottle, he appeared to be in the same tent where Ben had breakfast with Kate on the beach before putting her in a bear cage.
• I mentioned in a DocArzt post a few weeks back that Locke was definitely different since he returned to the island. There was almost unanimous disagreement among those who commented, saying he was no different than he was in season 1. I beg to differ, and apparently Richard Alpert agrees with me. I think Alpert and I would make great buds. We could sit around discussing how different John Locke is... he could lend me his eyeliner... I could learn more about Ancient Egypt, firsthand...
• I was going to say that one thing I’ve always loved about Terry O’Quinn, in any show I’ve ever seen him in, is that smile. It’s so warm and sincere, and he smiles with his entire face, with his eyes squinting up. He’s so fatherly and protective to Sun... and then, by the end of the episode, we realize maybe Locke just LOOKS sincere, but he’s as good an actor as O’Quinn.
• Kate has a cute little wrench on her Dharma symbol that I didn’t notice before. Jack has nothing.
• Ellie tells Jack about walking Daniel to a spot where he told her he was from the future. I watched Jughead again the other night, and there’s a TON of stuff in there that was referenced last week and again this week. Definitely watch it again if you still have it on your PVR or VCR.
• I KNEW the journal Ellie gave to Daniel in the restaurant was the same one he carried around!
• Between Jack and Sawyer, they had to use a ton of red sticky syrup in this episode.
• I don’t mean to be cruel to the guy playing Chang, but I get the impression that they hired the guy back in season 2 to do the orientation videos, and didn’t realize they were going to use the actor in such a big way later on. I don’t think he’s a very good actor. He’s so stiff and overly gruff and “what the hell?!”-like.
• Widmore wonders why Daniel looks familiar to him. Interesting that Ellie knows that Daniel was the guy she marched to the bomb, but he only looks vaguely familiar to Widmore. That’s because by the time Widmore got back to the camp, Daniel was already on his way out of the camp with Ellie at gunpoint. Widmore asked Richard about him, wanting to know why they were letting him go, but he was probably in Dan’s presence for less than 5 minutes.
• Ben doesn’t actually serve any purpose on the trip into the jungle for Alpert to find gunshot-in-the-leg Locke. Locke clearly only wanted Ben to tag along so he could see proof of the island telling Locke things. Burn.
• The scene of Alpert tending to Locke’s wound is mostly taken from “Because You Left.” The only difference I could see was the angle from which Locke first sees Alpert approach (we only see his torso through a hole in the trees) and when Alpert first gets to him, he stops, smiles, and says, “Hey, John.” They remove that line from this episode, to make Alpert look a little more unsure of himself. But all the rest of the scene is simply taken from that episode. I wonder how much the writers tell the actors? Was Carbonell told that he had to look unsure of himself, but would know exactly what to do at the same time? Or do they give a little more specific information than that?
• Man, I cannot WAIT to see the reunion between Locke and Jack, now that Jack’s Mr. Destiny Guy.
“Jack? Good to see you.”
“Hey, Locke, um... you were r-r-r-...gack!”
“I’m sorry, Jack, what’s wrong with you?”
“Sorry. Ahem. You were r-r-r-cough!cough!”
“Jack, are you sick?”
“NO! I need to get this out. You were r-r-r-...”
Locke, smiling. “I know.”
• When Miles sees Sawyer through the binoculars, he calls him Jim. It makes sense; he’s known him as Jim for 3 years; he knew him as Sawyer for about a week.
• I SO thought that Sawyer was going to let Juliet get into the sub and was then going to chicken out. Whew.
• Sayid seems to be all for Oceanic not crashing, for if the plane had landed, he may have found Nadia quicker, and she would still be alive.
• I actually thought Juliet and Sawyer seemed sweet when they first got on the sub. Kate felt like a fifth wheel.
• That sub dive was SO CGI, right down to the ripples in its wake. I guess unless you’re filming U-571, it’s a little expensive to get a sub on your set. (Or maybe the water was simply too shallow to dive a sub there?)
• Dan told them they had to put lead in the leak on the side of Jughead, but the leak still looked open.
• I’ve always REALLY disliked the expedition music that plays at least once a season when everyone heads off on a trek.
• This episode was very cleverly titled. Jack has seemed to regain his leader status, and is being followed by Ellie, Sayid, and Alpert. Kate refuses to follow him, and returns to Sawyer, but he’s no longer a leader. Meanwhile, 30 years later, Locke is also a leader, but his authority is being undermined by Alpert and Ben, grumbling behind him. And Jacob is somehow leading all of them, but how can you follow someone you’ve never seen? Radzinsky usurps Horace as leader, and everyone seems to switch over to him without question. Chang is also a leader, leading the people off the island.

Hurley’s numbers:
The hydrogen bomb is 12 feet long (8+4).

So Many Questions...
• Is the ship in a bottle significant of something bigger? That the island really is inside a snowglobe, as Desmond famously claimed in “Live Together, Die Alone”? The ship could represent the Black Rock, which is on the centre of the island. We still need an explanation for why that got there. I’m thinking many of the things that have happened on the island stem from that incident, though now that we’ve seen so much of the Egyptian mythology, it suggests it goes back WAY earlier than a 19th century slave ship.
• Richard pulls out the compass and says it’s a little rusty, but it still points north. Yet, back in season 1, I believe it was, Sayid uses a compass that John Locke fashions for him and says the point is always off, that it never quite points north. The suggestion at the time was that the electromagnetic energy from the hatch was throwing it off, yet Richard says his compass works just fine. Why? Is it because Desmond turned the key? Because Richard never makes it seem like there was ever a time when it DIDN’T work, and Locke gave that to him in 1954.
• Was Richard telling the truth about watching everyone die?
• Last week many people (myself included) thought Eloise was the epitome of Worst Mother of the Century for shaping her son’s entire life so he’d be killed by her hand. But now, Jack is telling her that if she follows everything written in that journal, they could change things so she WOULDN'T kill Dan. Is it possible Eloise shaped his entire life to the point where she thought she could CHANGE him being killed? Why not just steer him away from the island? And why does she look so heartbroken all the time when she looks at him? (Speaking of which, last week I also kept saying I thought Ellie would find out Dan’s life from the journal, and many people said Nik, you’re wrong, because in the preview Jack’s holding it, not Eloise. But in this episode, Eloise was holding it the entire time.)
• Anyone else think weaselly little Phil’s eventually going to get his?
• If the Swan station is some sort of top secret lab, why does Radzinsky have a Swan logo on his jumpsuit, for all the world to see?
• Speaking of jumpsuits, I find it strange that Hugo’s says “Hurley” on it. The name on the suit is based on how you’re registered, and the Dharma sub manifest says Hugo Reyes. Would he have been able to convince them to put his nickname on there instead?
• Is Locke correct? Has Ben never seen Jacob? It was certainly one of the theories we all put forward a couple of seasons ago, suggesting that the scene in the cabin was all smoke and mirrors, with Ben talking to Jacob like he’s some child, when in fact he had no idea where he was. However, that means Ben’s a REALLY good guesser, since he guessed Jacob was in the chair and addressed the chair the entire time. Maybe he’s seen the chair move before and knew he was in it.
• Radzinsky says they’re supposed to break ground on the Swan in 20 (8+8+4) hours, but haven’t we already seen them starting to dig the hole for the Swan when Hurley and Miles go there?
• At first I thought Jack and Co were in the same place where Ben was judged, but it’s clearly not. Is it connected? They refer to it as the tunnels, but if Jughead is under there, the place where Ben was judged must be far away in the tunnels, because Ellie said Jughead is currently under Dharmaville. The place of judgment, on the other hand, was under the wall surrounding the Temple, which was still intact in 2007.
• What’s up with Locke lying to Sun? If you die and then resurrect on the island, does something happen to your sense of morality? The earlier Locke followed through on his promise to Jin, and didn’t tell Sun that Jin was alive. This one just walks right past her when he returns to the camp, and looks her in the eye and lies to her about Jacob helping them find Jin.
• Was Ben lying when he said that he tried to kill Locke because he was becoming a problem? I hope not... he’s going to prove me WRONG. And I HATE when that happens! (Ben. DUDE. I'm trying to prove that you're essentially a good guy. Sigh... cooperate with me here.)
• So... they beat Sawyer to a pulp screaming about how they need to know where Kate is. Then she comes wandering back into the camp and they stick her on a sub, rather than interrogate her to find out where the hostiles are?! Something’s wrong here.
• The columns in the place where Jughead was buried were Greek or Roman, not Egyptian. What was that place?
• Why is Locke going to kill Jacob? Is it because he asked for help? Is it to help him resurrect as a better person, the way Locke did? Is he trapped in some way and only death can save him?

Next week: The finale. I’m heartbroken. I can’t believe it’s almost over!! But I cannot wait to discuss it with you guys. I know we’ll have a LOT to say. But for now, let's chat about this one!



UPDATE: My DocArzt post is now up.

UPDATE #2: It has come to my attention that people are posting spoilers for next week's episode in the comments section of my DocArzt post, so I'm warning you now not to scroll down to the comments if you don't want to be spoiled. Please come back here and leave a comment on the article if you'd like to talk about it but don't want to risk the spoilage. (Thanks for the heads up, batcabbage!)

204 comments:

1 – 200 of 204   Newer›   Newest»
The Question Mark said...

Great post, Nikki.
"Nikki & Paolo would still be alive"...LMAO!!!

Yeah, I think that killing Jacob is going to somehow HELP Jacob, not harm him. Locke was enlightened by something after his death, and I think he believes the same will happen to Jacob.
Remember Zombie Girl from Season 2? The psychic's daughter who came back to life during her own autopsy? Well she seemed to go on a pretty fantastic little journey during her "death". Maybe Locke went on a similar journey. Perhaps he met Jacob in the spirit-world, and Jacob told him that the only way to save the Island was for Locke to come find him and kill him.
After all, Jacob's first (and only) words so far were "Help me." The dude is obviously in some kinda pickle.

As for Phil and Radzinsky, or as I call them "Season 5's answer to Martin Keamy", I look forward to seeing some kinda punishment for all the nastiness they've been performing on our beloved heroes. Even though we know Radz is gonna blow his own head off, it would be nice to have seen Sawyer give him a nice right cross to the face and maybe break his dumb little 70s glasses.
But Phil, it seems, is even WORSE. Even Radzinsky looked apalled when Phil clobbered Juliet! Here's hoping that guy gets wiped out in a really cool way, like the ever-lovin Nikki & Paulo.
Best. Deaths. Ever.

Deborah said...

Yep: another great episode, another great recap! Can't wait for the finale AND I don't want it to come.

Benny said...

Great episode, as usual. And nicely capped Nikki!

Richard
With all that we've seen of Richard, if he remembers everyone very well because he watched them die in 1977, then he must have known them in season 3 as well and known who they were and what was going to happen to them! Since the Others had files on everyone and Kate, Sawyer and Jack were brought in.

Fertility
Ellie said Jughead is currently under the SwanActually it's explicitly said the bomb is under the village. And radiation could certainly be the cause of the infertility. But only if the bomb does not change location. So is this a clue that originally, the bomb was still there? Maybe Richard should have clued in that this was the cause of the fertility issue detailed in season 3.

I am still waiting for Chang to lose his arm.

Chang: "What are YOU doing here?"
Hurley: "But we asked you first."
I liked how Hurley was caught on the question he was worried about when they first arrived in DHARMA. The President!

John
You're right Nikki, John is still not sure how everything works. But it seems he does have a strong connection with the island, especially if he was resurrected. So if he has a strong connection with the island but not Jacob, and he wants to kill Jacob. Is it another possibility that Jacob and the island are actually in conflict as well?

JackJack is definitely back to trying to save people, wasn't that what Kate was about to say. This may be a believing Jack, but he has regained a lot of his older self, with a different perspective on things. He sees destiny not as that's what they've always done (Whatever happened happened) but in that it is their destiny to change it all.

Miles has an epiphany! His dad was screaming and kicking them out to protect them, not because he didn't care. That was a nice moment. Maybe little, but still poignant in the entire show.

It's nice to see Sayid as an optimist. If he can't succeed in changing things, at least he'll free them from their misery.



@Nikki:
• I don’t mean to be cruel to the guy playing Chang, but I get the impression that they hired the guy back in season 2 to do the orientation videos, and didn’t realize they were going to use the actor in such a big way later on. I don’t think he’s a very good actor. He’s so stiff and overly gruff and “what the hell?!”-like.
I thought he gave off that scientist vibe pretty good. Not a people person and kept to himself. Was forced to interact. You're probably right about casting, but I still buy it.


• That sub dive was SO CGI, right down to the ripples in its wake. I guess unless you’re filming U-571, it’s a little expensive to get a sub on your set. (Or maybe the water was simply too shallow to dive a sub there?)
Soooooooooooooo true!


• Radzinsky says they’re supposed to break ground on the Swan in 20 (8+8+4) hours, but haven’t we already seen them starting to dig the hole for the Swan when Hurley and Miles go there?
I'll just assume they break ground on the EM section of the Swan, that way there's no contradiction and I can sleep nicely at night!


• What’s up with Locke lying to Sun?
Maybe he's not really lying. Jacob may know how to do it, but that's just not what Locke cares about. He's just not revealing the important pieces, but I don't think he's lying about what he does reveal. (Unless I just missed the confirmation of the lie, in which case good question!)


Compass
Just one tid bit. If Richard's compass has gotten rusty from when Locke gave it to him. And now he gives the rusty compass to Locke to bring to 1954. When 54-Richard gets it, it'll get even more rustier to 2007. And so on... there's a loop there that is just flawed and I simply cannot accept it. If Richard had said: "here's your compass, as intact as when you gave it to me." Then maybe there's some leeway, but with what's been said, there needs to be a second compass. I'm sure there's one in the kit Locke gives him. So from when Locke and Richard meet to the when Richard gives Locke the compass, they have two compasses with them. I just cannot budge on that one, and it's not just because I don't like self-existing loops. Sorry for the rant!

Next week:
How did Sawyer get off the sub?
We'll finally find out what's in the crate!
Richard hacks at what appears to be some think roots, or possibly a wall.

LotteryTicket said...

We'll need a week to sort this out! My only comment now (one eye open), is that the scene at Yemi's plane bothered me. One, Alpert wears glasses in the original scene, the voice over sounds more like Ben and he sounds very sure of himself unlike in this scene. Two, why is Ben surprised by the mention of another plane. Surely, Yemi's plane was detected. Ethan sent to investigate and shoots Locke. Surely he tells Ben.

great epi. Watch Daniel close his eyes when Ellie moves her hand over his face! lol enjoy all the recaps and comments.

joshua said...

What a terrific episode! Oh, I'm gonna miss this.

And a terrific recap, Nikki, as ever -- I'll really miss those, too.:)

"...so many bad things would have happened if the crash never occurred...Nikki and Paulo would still be alive."You're hilarious!

I SO thought that Sawyer was going to let Juliet get into the sub and was then going to chicken out. Whew.I so thought they were about to kill him. Double whew.

Anyone else think weaselly little Phil’s eventually going to get his?Have I mentioned that I think Patrick Fischler, the guy who plays Phil, looks and sounds enough like Quentin Tarantino for them to be brothers? Which reminds me -- KILL PHIL.

Ellie said Jughead is currently under the Swan.Actually, I think when she said that it appeared someone had built a village on top of it, she was saying it is under Dharmaville. Which still wouldn't put it very close to the Temple, I don't believe.

My observations:

Raise your hand if surrounding the leaky hydrogen bomb with torches sounds like a good idea to you.

What is "the same way we brought [Jughead] in"? Where is this secret entrance in or near Dharmaville that we don't know about? And does Dharma? It certainly wouldn't seem so... But then again, if they built the village, then someone besides Ben would have had to build his secret Smokey entrance into that particular cottage, right? So, what if someone does know? What if they found it already? Consider this question: if "The Incident" served to repurpose The Swan before they'd scarcely broken ground, then what was its originally intended purpose? What was it actually supposed to be? And is that indicative of whatever inspired the project in the first place?

I loved the sound it made when Legshot Locke disappeared, that sort of whooshy 'pop', almost like flash paper. It reminded me of a magic show.

The angry new Kate? Sucks. The ineffectual new Ben? FRAKKIN' AWESOME! When he comes up to Locke at the end and mentions his "concerns," the tone of his voice is so meek and deferential, and -- dare I say it -- scared.

So, if Christian is Locke's Jacob agent (with an occasional stand-in from Walt, who somehow does it without being dead... as far as we know...), do you wonder who Ben's might be? His mother?

It sounds like Richard may not actually see Jacob, either. And what about Richard, anyway? He always comes across as such an automaton to me. Is it possible he's like the new Locke -- that he died and was resurrected? We've never seen him injured that I can recall. And why has Locke not yet asked him why he doesn't age? Does he even know?

Genevieve said...

Ah, Nikki, once again, another great recap! I too, was LMAO at the scene between Hurley and Chang..."who's the president?" LOL, the very question Hurley asked Sawyer when they first got there, and Sawyer was all, "don't worry about it." LOL!

And hahahahahahahaha--"Nikki and Paolo would still be alive." Good one!

The Question Mark said...

I just had an intriguing thought:

I recently read the trilogy HIS DARK MATERIALS, by Philip Pullman. It was based off Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost.
There were several little Lost-ish nuances in these books: polar bears, time/space travel, life-sucking specters that were invisible to most people, and there was even a phycisist studying time/space travel who had a dharma (I=Ching) symbol hanging in her lab.
So, since these books were based off of Paradise Lost, I started thinking that maybe the story of the Island echoes the poem as well.

Think of the island as Eden, or the Kingdom of Heaven. Jacob is God, or the Authority, rarely seen and rarely questioned.
Alpert could be Metatron, the Authority's voice, herald, and warrior angel.
The Others could represent the angels themselves, super-strong and fiercely protective of their kingdom. In PARADISE LOST, the angel Lucifer rebels against the Authority, and thus he is outcast.
In Lost, Charles Widmore rebels against Jacob, and thus he is outcast.
In HIS DARK MATERIALS, the Authority is freed from His ancient prison, and instantaneously dies, although he is quite happy and relieved to do so.
Is Jacob's cabin his prison? Will Locke's killing him finally free him and put his spirit at ease?

Just something cool to think about till the finale next week.
Namaste, everybody!

Jono said...

As much as I would like to hope that Locke wants to kill Jacob to "help" him, I can totally see John slowly becoming the new Ben character. Perhaps John wants to get answers from Jacob and then kill him, ala Jeremy Bentham's death. Therefore, John would truly become the leader of the island. It sounds selfish, but Locke certainly was upfront about his decisions in tonight's episode. We've also seen this behavior before, in season 4, when he was ruling the barracks. He's on a mission to be the leader and killing the other well-known leader is the way to do it. Ben and Richard's doubt is certainly much more understandable, that way.

I love Locke. He's been my favorite character since season one. But I hope he's not going to do something this drastic for his own selfish reasons again.

Anonymous said...

It seemed to me like every time Locke mentioned wanting to see Jacob, Richard kept trying to stall and divert Locke. "How about in the morning?" "Sure, but can we speak in private first?" Locke asking to speak to the group and then saying he wanted them all to go and see Jacob was a means of forcing Richard to take him there without any excuses or delays. Whatever Richard was going to try and do to stall Locke in his quest to speak to Jacob, Locke outmaneuvered him.

SonshineMusic said...

Oh my goodness. I just spent like half an hour putting together a post of everything and my internet connection cut out just as I hit post. I think I'll go scream now.
Let's see if I can recreate at least part of it...

First off I LOVE LOST and I LOVE NIK AT NITE! Yeah! I want to cry that the season's almost over. What will I do on Wednesdays?!

Now on to thoughts.

1. LOVED Sayid's line, "If not, at least you'll put us out of our misery." HA! He doesn't usually get those comedic lines, but it was well played. And I loved the look on his face when Kate said they saved Ben's life, like, what are you CRAZY!?

2. "I watched them all die." My reaction? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then I thought, but wait, that could still change, because it's their present and future even though it's in the past. Right? Right?!

3. When Ben said, what you don't trust me on the beach with my former people I was thinking, Ben, we don't trust you ANYWHERE.

4. Was it just me or did I see BKV in the credits! Batcabbage was happy!

5. I also thought it was odd that Hurley's name was Hurley on his suit. I thought he didn't like the associations of that nickname. It would seem like that would have been the perfect opportunity to start a new life with his real name.

6. LOVED the line where Richard says about Charles and Eloise, "Let's just say love can be complicated" TO KATE AND JACK. Umm, yeah, I think they might understand. Hello, quadrangle. HA, love the irony.

7. Speaking of which, Hurley TOLD them they wouldn't be able to pass a simple test about the president and stuff. That was a great exchange.

8. LOVED the line where Locke asks Ben, "Didn't the Island ever tell you things?" and "You've never seen him [Jacob], have you?" Ouch, Locke, just ouch. :)

9. Sawyer and Juliet were fantastic in this episode. No matter where you fall on the ships, you've got to give them that. I loved them together in this episode. Until the fifth wheel fell in. Then Juliet got all jealous and huffy. I understand to some extent, but she should give Sawyer a little credit. He hasn't done anything to make her doubt since Kate came back.

10. Locke lives up to his motto of "Don't tell me what I can't do." Don't tell me that I can't be the leader, don't tell me that I can't go see Jacob, don't tell me that I can't arrange a meeting between you and my earlier self so that I'll know I have to die. :D

11. Nikki: I KNEW the journal Ellie gave to Daniel in the restaurant was the same one he carried around! Isn't it great to be right once in a while? We totally called this one.

12. I swear my heart stopped, dead stopped when I thought Kate got shot. I didn't realize how attached to her I was until I thought she had died. Werd.

13. I didn't think Locke lied to Sun. I thought he said that Jin wasn't the MAIN reason for finding Jacob, but I didn't think he said they weren't going to pursue that at all.

14. I really like the exchange between Jack and Kate as well, but I didn't agree with you on this one (which kind of surprised me, since I usually do). "You ask the question, Is it not worth sacrificing the personal growth of a handful of characters to bring back all those people?" My question in response is, at what cost? If Jack does set off the bomb, even if it does neutralize the other energy, there's still the very real possibility that all of the people on the Island will die. What about all of their lives? Are the people on the plane more important than the Hostiles or the Dharminians?

14 b. Personally, (and this is just my opinion) I didn't think that Kate was only talking about her and Jack when she said us. I thought she was talking about all of them. Yes, a lot of people died, but the group went through hell together and have formed some serious friendships/relationships/whaterships because of it. Yes, the last three years have been hard on Jack, but as you point out, if they never crash, his life will stink a bit, but it won't be that bad. Kate's life, if they never crash, is at an end. She will be in jail for the rest of her life, so I don't blame her that she thinks that the things she's experienced and the memories she has from the last three years are worth saving.

15. Lock has definitely changed (see I agree :) In the first season or so he thought he had a purpose and he was trying to believe in something, but he didn't know what. It was the Island, or destiny, or the button. Now he knows exactly what he believes in. He is in tune with the Island and the Island speaks to him, which makes me wonder if Jacob is connected to the Island at all or if he is some sort of outside entity. If he was a manifestation of or speaker for the Island, then wouldn't the Island lead Locke to him? Why would he have to follow Richard to get there? And that brings us back to the question, so why does Locke want to kill him?

Sorry this was a lot longer than even the first one. Guess this episode really caught in my mind. :)
Love Lost, just Love IT!

brodal said...

Quick question for you all...did anyone else think maybe John has turned to the "dark side" or am I way off? I hope I'm wrong but it seems he's becoming just like Ben-totally lying with a very sincere voice/demeanor. I am so totally confused by this episode. For one moment I thought maybe Richard might have some hidden agenda (well I guess his "agenda" has always been a mystery but I keep thinking he's one of the good guys)-I just don't knownwhat to think of his comment regarding maybe John was going to be trouble...maybe I'll be able to think more clearly come morning!

I totally thought Sawyer was going to get killed when Juliet got on the Sub first and he lingered behind! Whee!

I think Miles might have gotten some closure with resolving hid daddy issues. I hope that doesn't mean he's a gonner!

Thank you so much Niki for sharing your analysis with us!!! It helps clear up so much and I don't know what I'd do without having somewhere to go before heading off to la-la land!!!

Laurie said...

Does anyone else think that Jack's little mission is going to ultimately cause "the incident," once again just proving the Losties are causing the bad things they are trying to prevent? That was definitely the vibe I was getting.

But what a great episode.

brodal said...

Jono-your post wasn't up yet when I started writing mine and since I'm doing this on my cell phone tonight it's taking me forever to post! I see we had the same impression about John. I hope were wrong because I'm not so sure I'm going to like it if that's where it's going...but who knows!

Correction to my prior post-I meant to say Whew! regarding Sawyer but my phone thought I mispelled and changed it to whee (or maybe I hit the e instead of the w). In either event I did mean whew as in relief because I love Sawyer!

Benny said...

@SoneShine: 2. "I watched them all die." My reaction? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then I thought, but wait, that could still change, because it's their present and future even though it's in the past. Right? Right?!

Sorry but no, well not in a whatever happened, happened scenario. The reason: it's Richard's past. Since he's already experienced seeing them die, they can't not die. When you consider 1977 their present, anything can happen. But by then, 2007 is their future, which means anyone who spans that period (Richard) knows what happens, just like everyone knew what had happened to DHARMA. But maybe their going the other direction.

@Laurie: Does anyone else think that Jack's little mission is going to ultimately cause "the incident," once again just proving the Losties are causing the bad things they are trying to prevent? That was definitely the vibe I was getting.
That was posited earlier, but two things jump at me this week. First the podcast, where they suggest a BIG event might do something. Second, they actually discuss that their attempt at changing history might actually cause it. That debate was never presented in character dialogue before.

I have been hoping all season that the past can be changed, and I believe that this week was a minor victory for my camp.


I'm starting to foreshadow that next week being a big event but that they won't reveal until next season whether it was the incident itself, or the incident being prevented. It will be a climactic finish, but it won't tell us if the past has been changed.

Anonymous said...

Locke's decision to kill jacob has a smack of Apocalypse Now, with Willard sailing upriver to kill Kurtz. Very much like Frazier's "The Golden Bough", which informed Coppola's film--the slave kills the king and takes his place. Is that what Locke is after?

But what I really want to know is where is Rose and Bernard? And where is Vincent? Did the writers just drop the whole mystery dog bit to shorten the seasons?

Robert said...

I'm going copy a portion of my own review of the episode because I am having trouble dealing with all this time travel madness...

if Juliet dies in 1977, then Richard is also directly responsible for her death by recruiting her in the first place. Does he also believe that the timeline cannot be changed?

"To continue the what if’s, the Purge happens in 1992, many years after the incoming “incident.” We see Horace’s corpse in Ben’s flashback episode, which means he remains alive after the “incident” along with others like Radzinsky and Ethan. How is it that all of our Losties die in 1977 but members of the Dharma Initiative remain alive? This pretty much says that the hydrogen idea is not going work if the timeline remains intact (I don’t recall some huge pit in the middle of Dharmville in 2007). If not, well…the gate blows wide open."

If anyone care to comment comment on my page. I'm really curious to the rest of your opinions.

Hisham said...

I think the ship model Alpert was working on is the Black Rock.

Ali Bags said...

Great recap of a great episode Nikki. I LOVE Lost because it makes me shout out loud every episode (and I watch it on my own) This time it was when Phil punched Juliet.

I'd forgotten how fine Josh Holloway looks when he's being beaten up.

I'm going to Oahu in July! So excited.

Anonymous said...

Quick note: We'll use Jack Shephard as an example.

If Jack is successful in using the bomb to "erase" time, Oceanic 815 (in 2004) will take off from Sydney and land safely in Los Angeles. Tonight's episode with Locke seeing Locke proved once again that the same person exists on two different time planes. Now...

...if Jack (the one who detonates Jughead) stays on the island for 30 years until 2004, he will be alive at the same time Jack (off-island) lands in Los Angeles. How does "erasing" time help Jack (on-island) at all??? In Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse we trust.

- Brandon

Batcabbage said...

Wow. What an episode. Locke rules, Jack also rules, and Sayid shoots people! Classic.

This was the first episode where Batkitty and I sat down with a notepad to note things down for a post here. One thing I wrote down was negated by the episode itself (the Richard/Locke bullet scene), where I just ended up crossing out what I'd written and marked it 'AWESOME' instead. The second thing I noted was (and it's been noted here many times, by many others) that Jack has become Locke in terms of thinking.

The third thing I noted was that, even given his limited screen time, the young Charles Widmore is excellent! Even his voice is a great match for Jim Robinson, so much so that I first thought they were dubbing him.

Fourth, even if Daniel is REALLY dead (and in this show, what does that mean, anyway?), it doesn't matter. Miles can still talk to him.

But the main thing that I got from this episode, is Richard's attitude to Jacob. As has been pointed out in earlier comments, Richard seems to avoid Locke's attempts to seek Jacob out ASAP, which Locke just bats aside with aplomb. Then he says to Ben that Locke may turn out to be trouble. Could it be that not only Ben, but Richard are somehow keeping Jacob hostage? From everything we've seen before, I'd assumed that it was Ben mainly keeping Jacob from Locke/everyone else, but I'm getting the impression that it's Richard's intent also. Could it be that Locke, in saying that he's going to kill Jacob, is intending to free him from captivity? That Jacob's plea 'Help me' way back in season 3 (is it? Seems so long ago now) was a plea for release, and Locke has interpreted that as killing him? Who knows? Intersting thought, though.

@Sonshine: Was it just me or did I see BKV in the credits! Batcabbage was happy!LOL! Yes, he was there, listed as a producer. Everytime I see his name I shout it at the TV. It's an even louder shout when he's the actual writer, followed by a loud SQUEEEEEEEEEE! It's quite disconcerting. :)

Batcabbage said...

Ooh! I also meant to say HOORAY FOR FREDDIE CORK! That's Nemo, the guy Sawyer talks to on the sub (whose character in Lost is listed as 'Mitch' on IMDB), to those of you who only know him from this ep of Lost. The actor, Kevin Chapman, is Freddie Cork, a main baddie from the excellent Showtime series Brotherhood. It's brilliant, and you should watch it. There, I've said it.

Steve said...

Nikki,

Is it me or is this the season finally of season three all over again?

Locke leads everyone off the beach in search of Jacob.

Jack leads everyone off the beach towards the radio tower.

Both are beacons in a way.

Miles, Hurley & Jin stay back in Dharmaville to rescue Saywer & Juliet (or at least think about it)

Sayid, Bernard & Jin stay back and defend the camp from the others (Juliet Saywer and Hurley coem through in the end)

Jack and Sayid go to blow up the bomb to change everything.

Desmond and Charley go to shut of a button to allow rescue which changed everything.

Both had to swim underwater to get to their destination. Something bad happened as a result - one brought the freighter, I'm guessing this time the bomb will release smokey from it's temple prison and allow it to now roam the island.

Ultimatly, in season three we lost Charlie and in this season we will lose Sayid. I'm guessing he's ready much like Eko, Sayid will sacrifice himself to be the smoke monster's first victim. What do you think?

Hutch said...

Well, another night of losing sleep thinking about LOST. Nikki you're correct this episode being a great bridge to the finale. Loved Ben's comment about Richard "He's kind of an...advisor." What a great line, delivered perfectly.

I also LOL during the Dr. Chang and Hurley exchange.....only to topped by the look on Jin's face.

Teebore said...

Another great 'cap, Nikki!

Loved the scene between Jack and Kate in the tent: Jack's zeal, Kate's disdain. There was a line at one point (possibly at the creek-I forget) where Kate asked him something like "what are you planning on doing" and he could have easily answered "fix things." He didn't, which showed great restraint on part of the writers, but it hung there, unspoken. It was great.

If there's Skaters and Jaters, what do we call people who want Kate to end up with neither and stop dicking them both around? Cuz I think I'm in that camp. :) (Although, for the most part, my sympathies lied this episode with the non-H-bomb-blowing-up Kate, mainly because I think things aren't going to quite work out for Jack and he's just going to make things worse-or the same).

Regarding Richard's line about watching everyone die, I'm thinking one of three things:
1. When Jack, Kate, etc. do whatever they do next week, they'll flash back to '07 in such a manner that Richard thinks they died.
2. They do change things, altering their pasts such that Richard thinks they died.
3. They don't die, but for some reason, Richard is told (or decides for himself) that if he's ever asked about them, he needs to tell people they died.

Whichever it is, the line was clearly designed to get us all worried heading into the finale, and to add further fuel to the "Can events be changed?" fire.

Anyone else think weaselly little Phil’s eventually going to get his?

After he hit Juliet, boy, I hope so.

It's been asked before, but how old is Daniel? Is it possible he's already a bouncing bundle of Other joy at this point, and that's why Eloise is so shocked: the man she just killed is the same as the little tyke sleeping in her tent, or something?

Does anyone else think that Jack's little mission is going to ultimately cause "the incident," once again just proving the Losties are causing the bad things they are trying to prevent? That was definitely the vibe I was getting.Yes, I still believe that 100%.

I am filled with even more Richard questions, especially in light of his conversation with Ben about Locke. I don't like the implications of it for both Richard and Locke, but we'll see where things are heading.

Hutch said...

I was just thinking. If Ellie got pregnant on the island and then had the baby when and why did the "pregnancy curse" start?

ashlie said...

Great post, Nikki. I have to admit, I wasn't overwhelmed by this episode, but to be fair, I was watching it somewhere other than my own living room on a sub-par TV, so maybe when I get home and can watch it in all of its HD glory, my opinion will change.

Is it just me, or was anyone else kind of sort of hoping that it was Kate who got shot? She's been on my nerves for the last two seasons, and I'm failing to see what her purpose is anymore other than messing things up and just doing whatever she wants, not what's best for anyone else. The look on Juliet's face when she got on the sub was priceless. I also totally thought that Sawyer was going to let Juliet get on the sub and he was going to stay, but am pleasantly surprised to see him stand by his lady.

Something struck me about the significance of the Alpert/Locke bullet incident. It seemed odd to me that when the island was skipping through time that it also skipped forward in time to that moment, when Locke could be helped, almost as though the island was not skipping randomly, but purposefully to help Locke on his journey. It strikes me even stronger when you consider the whole, "what are the odds that the Orchid will even be here" bit, and lo and behold it was there, just for John. Not sure where I'm going with it yet, but it's a thought.

As far as the jumpsuits go, I think I posted about it on Jopinionated's site back in LaFleur. I also found it odd the haphazardness of the names on the suits. Sometimes it's lastnames (LaFleur, Radzinsky), sometimes it's first names, (Roger, Jack, Juliet, Miles, Olivia) and apparently sometimes it's nicknames (Hurley). I know it's a minor thing to nitpick, but the inconsistency about it bothers me. I suppose the simple answer is that they just put whatever you'd prefer to be called on your suit, but that seems a little lax for the DI.

Funny you should mention the expedition theme, when it started playing at the end I was like, "Ooh, marching theme, haven't heard this in a while!" I like it though! I was disappointed that we didn't hear (at least I don't think we did) the "Life and Death" theme that they play whenever people die/are born when they took Dan away from us. I remember them talking about it in the special features for Season 4, how it's always played when a character dies, so I was holding out hope that maybe, just maybe we would see more of Faraday, but it doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Did the episode seem extra short to anyone else? All the episodes seem to be running until like 10:02, 10:04 lately and then last night (on my feed at least, in Canada) they cut to commercial at 9:56 and the credits rolled at 9:59. Argh.

ashlie said...

Oh, and did anyone else notice the protective way that Widmore put his hand over Eloise's stomach before she left? Is it possible she's pregnant with Dan right now? It's got my vote!

SonshineMusic said...

@ Hutch: Loved Ben's comment about Richard "He's kind of an...advisor." What a great line, delivered perfectly.

I love the way that Michael Emerson can take the littlest line and turn it into a major moment. He has such a way of delivering lines, that they should be ordinary, but they aren't. LOVE BEN :)

Batcabbage said...

Another thing I meant to mention: The absence of Smokey in '77 suggests to me that either the 'Incident' or the 'Detonation' (of the hydrogen bomb) release him.

Nikki Stafford said...

Question Mark: "Remember Zombie Girl from Season 2? The psychic's daughter who came back to life during her own autopsy?"

Wow, great catch!! I'd forgotten about her, but now I will definitely go and look that one up. Maybe I'll include a sidebar in this book talking about the people who have died and shown up again and how they're different.

Which makes me wonder... will we see Michael again? Just to deliver one line of bad or good news? Maybe to say something to WAAAAAAALT?

Benny: Oops, you're right; she said village, and I wrote this after writing the line asking about breaking ground on the Swan, so I had it on my brain. :) I've changed it!

"I am still waiting for Chang to lose his arm."

I've been wondering about this, too, although I could never figure out if he really did lose his arm, or if it was part of his act. Remember, in one orientation video, one of his arms doesn't work, and in the other, it's the other arm. They would have been more careful than that. I also wondered if he'd already made the orientation videos, but since the Swan isn't built, and we know a bunch of Dharminians (LOVE that word, thanks Sonshine!) have stuck around, maybe he's yet to make them.

"Then maybe there's some leeway, but with what's been said, there needs to be a second compass."

Excellent point! It definitely shouldn't be rusty at all if it has to keep sending itself through the time loop.

Nikki Stafford said...

LotteryTicket: "One, Alpert wears glasses in the original scene, the voice over sounds more like Ben and he sounds very sure of himself unlike in this scene"

Actually, just to be on the safe side, I checked the original scene, and it checks out. As I said in my post, the scene is actually taken from the earlier episode to avoid any differences. The only differences were the ones I pointed out.

As for Ben not knowing about the other plane, he does know about the plane (we see him with Juliet in their rags out at the Pearl station, and there's no way they could have missed the Beechcraft looming above them), but I think John threw him off when he said it and his mind thought, "There's a NEW plane?"

Nikki Stafford said...

Wow, I'm surprised how many people thought Sawyer was going to be offed when Juliet went into the sub first! I NEVER even thought of that. Thank goodness. My heart wouldn't have been able to take it. (And I really think the writers know better than to do that. I know people who watch the show for nothing more than Josh Holloway. Weird, but true.)

Nikki Stafford said...

joshua: "Have I mentioned that I think Patrick Fischler, the guy who plays Phil, looks and sounds enough like Quentin Tarantino for them to be brothers? Which reminds me -- KILL PHIL."

They do! You're right. Any Mad Men fans here? Because as Jimmy Barrett, Fischler is particularly slimy and awful. He's such a great character actor for roles like these.

Nikki Stafford said...

joshua: "I loved the sound it made when Legshot Locke disappeared, that sort of whooshy 'pop', almost like flash paper. It reminded me of a magic show."

That actually made me laugh out loud. I thought, "What the hell?" It reminded me of those old commercials where they'd stop the camera and make a popping noise for the puppet to disappear. Same noise, and thankfully they didn't show it, because that would have been far too over the top for me. :)

asiancolossus said...

One of my favorite episodes!
And before I go on, I should say I love the marching music when they are on the beach, totally reminds me of the finale of Season 1.

Loved the scene with Sawyer/Juliet. Who knew Sawyer could be such a softie. I thought that Sawyer would pull a copter jump when Juliet went first into the sub. Brilliant case of "eye acting" when Kate was suddenly hoist into the romantic scene. What a threesome LOL By the way, how did Juliet, Sawyer and Kate end up back on the island in the previews???

Loved the scene between Kate/Jack. How far has Jack come? Wow...he is Mr. Destiny now...so basically he's becoming a hybrid of Locke and Faraday. Of course Kate doesn't want everything erased, she was headed right to the slammer. Don't get me started on her lame way of getting freedom in her trial!

It was nice to see Miles come to the realization Chang was not quite the bastard he thought. What, no fuzzy hugs between father and son? It was very Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker. I AM YOUR FATHER....WOOOOOOO

I hope that Sun gets a bit of a storyline soon. She seems to be playing a marginalized role to what Ben and Locke are doing right now. I have a feeling Sun and Jin will reunite in the finale but worried something might go terribly wrong.

I think that Locke was lying to Ben when he was saying he was going to kill Jacob. I mean Locke would have to be pretty gullible (and he has been in the past) to trust someone who has tried to kill him twice! He's probably testing Ben who will likely run to Richard and blab everything. I think Locke is simply getting under Ben's skin the same way Ben got under Locke's skin in the past but now Locke knows how to play his game...but even better...

I loved seeing Sayid again and he certainly knows how to make an entrance! I am not sure I quite buy that he has suddenly converted to Jack's way of thinking, especially since he seemed to plot his own path after shooting young Ben.

How are they going to move Jughead? The damn thing looks mighty heavy! Guesses on the incident? Jughead explodes and they morph into another dimension yet again? I don't think it'll be as simple as Oceanic 815 landing in LA. I don't think there would be anywhere to go with that.

I still am confused about this whole time loop thing, sigh...I've tried to read everyone's interpretation but my brain isn't big enough to comprehend...LOL. So if Eloise is trying to change the past so she didn't end up shooting Daniel, why send him back anyways? She would have achieved the same goal. Of course unless she had to send him back to shoot him then to change the past again...this kind of thing drives me mad just thinking about it!

Looking forward to the finale. Another story changer from what I hear, what Lost does best.

Nikki Stafford said...

Question Mark: Ooh, excellent catch on Paradise Lost! Someone suggested to me way back in season 2 that the show might be some sort of allegory owing its roots to Paradise Lost (one of my favourite books of all time) and since then, I've been watching for clues. And I've actually been saving that chapter for the season 6 book, which I plan on making pretty big and comprehensive and sum-uppy.

One of the pervading themes of PL is that of destiny vs. free will. Interestingly, it's Satan who exercises his free will in fighting against God, and for that he's banished to Hell. Adam and Eve are put into the Garden of Eden, and Satan tempts Eve to use her free will, and she's banished for doing it, too. People are punished for using free will. It's definitely an interesting framework from which to watch the show. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Jono: "I love Locke. He's been my favorite character since season one. But I hope he's not going to do something this drastic for his own selfish reasons again."

I agree with you. I'm hoping he won't; the pre-death John Locke was a sad character, always trying to do the right thing no matter how many people he mowed down in the process, and always at a complete loss for how to fix things when he effed up (which was EVERY TIME). He was gullible (Cooper), too trusting (that cop), fell for every trick in the book (Ben), and now he's come out a wiser person. I don't think he'll be making any mistakes, and I want to believe that he actually wants to help Sun, despite what he said to Ben. He also detects that Richard and Ben are talking, so for him to announce to Ben his intentions instead of keeping them to himself makes me think he's thought this through and is intentionally leading Ben down a path. I think he's manipulating Ben the way Ben has always manipulated him.

Nikki Stafford said...

SonshineMusic: "Oh my goodness. I just spent like half an hour putting together a post of everything and my internet connection cut out just as I hit post. I think I'll go scream now."

Oh Sonshine, I feel for you!! I had the WORST night last night. My husband put our daughter to bed so I could finish off a chapter of the book I was working on. But I couldn't get my wireless to connect in the house. I worked at it from 7:30 to 8:15 before my husband came down and I told him something was wrong with our network. He checked, and nothing was wrong (his was just fine). So he brought down his computer and we tried looking through it and that's when it hit me: at work that afternoon a tech guy was on my computer, trying to hook up my wireless to the photocopier so I could do automatic printing. In the end he said he couldn't do it and popped an ethernet cable into the side of my computer and said, "There, you don't even need the wireless." Did he disable it?

So I called the guy's cell, told him to call me URGENTLY, and in the meantime my hubby was trying to do it himself, and inadvertently, while trying to load his settings onto my computer, knocked out his OWN wireless. Now we had none. PANIC!! So I worked on the episode with no access to the internet while my husband talked to someone in India for 90 minutes reinstalling his own wireless. He finally got everything back up and running... and I'm STILL down. I think this guy has somehow disabled my wireless. I can connect to the router, but the router won't take it the extra step and connect me to the Net. So I'm using the ethernet cable in my husband's office right now and I'm VERY ANGRY and this guy will not call me back. ARGH.

It got to the point last night where I was planning on finishing the ep and then heading out in the pouring rain and driving to a Starbucks or hotel or something to pick up the wireless connection and see if I could post the blog that way. Luckily it didn't come to that, thank goodness.

But I feel your pain. And WOW you still managed a really long and concise post after all that!!:)

LostMyMind said...

Oh my god... Too many HOLY CRAP DID THEY REALLY JUST DO THAT!? moments, but it was a good episode.

Poor Kate! I just can't stress it enough. Lost has broken so many TV show rules that killing a major character is not just season finale material, (Case and point, Daniel Faraday. (Unless I'm the only one who thought of him as a major character.) :'( *sob*) so I thought Kate was a goner. Until of course, Sayid comes out of the bushes and I was all OMG Sayid and then oh thank god Kate is alright.

I luuuuuurve the part where Chang is asking HUrley if he's from the future! And I agree with Benny I thought he gave off that scientist vibe pretty good. Not a people person and kept to himself. Was forced to interact. He's either a mediocre actor, or a really good actor.

Ha ha! Paradox! During the whole 'RIchard go tell my other self that I have to die to get everyone back to the island' scene, I was laughing because it's all paradox. I mean maybe that doesn't apply on the island but it was funny to me. (My parents didn't think it was that funny. Oh well, I'm jut crazy I guess.)

As a last note, I was really surprised that it took that long for the (evil)Dharma people to figure out how to get Sawyer to tell them what they wanted to know. They did know that Sawyer and Juliet were together, right?

Anyway, great recap Nikki!

LostMyMind
(I ended up with a different username this time)

Elle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LostMyMind said...

Or not...

Elle said...

Great summary Nikki! You are my favie recapper by far.

I have to respectfully disagree w/you on the score. I love the expedition music! It takes me back to earlier seasons when so much was unknown yet still optimistic. I miss the island expeditions, really. Maybe I'm a typical "sheep" (or more-so, Pavlov's dog) as I love hearing that music knowing it means an expedition is at hand [drooool].

I read comments in earlier posts about John having Christ-like similarities. I wonder if John is both "John" and The Island?

LemonBailey said...

I've never posted before (and so hope I don't sound like a total idiot) but wanted to bring up/ask about a couple of things. Does anyone else remember Hurley seeing Jacob's (or someone's) eye in the window of the cabin a couple seasons ago? So BEN has never seen Jacob, but Hurley has (if it was Jacob). Hmmmm. I wonder if Hurley will come into play in the visit Locke is about to pay to Jacob.

I also keep thinking about Desmond running into Eloise in the jewelry store in the past...when he tries to buy Penny's engagement ring. She's older here, and clearly has already experienced whatever happens on the island in 1977, and tells Desmond that "the universe has a way of course-correcting", so even if you TRY to change things, it will end up as it "should" have been. So maybe all these efforts to change "the incident" happening on the island are for nought...or she's a liar...or she believes things HAVE to happen that way for some reason.

I agreed with what SonshineMusic had to say about the Kate/Jack exchange in the tent. One could make an argument for either position, but I didn't think Kate was being anymore selfish in her reasoning, if we truly know what her reasoning is, than anyone else. I know many don't like Kate and think she's selfish, but I see all of the characters being selfish about some things. She doesn't seem any worse to me than anyone else.

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: "Sawyer and Juliet were fantastic in this episode. No matter where you fall on the ships, you've got to give them that. I loved them together in this episode. Until the fifth wheel fell in. Then Juliet got all jealous and huffy. I understand to some extent, but she should give Sawyer a little credit. He hasn't done anything to make her doubt since Kate came back."


I agree with you. Sawyer's really in a pickle on this one. I'm thinking there had to have been times in the past 3 years where they've talked about Kate. Remember back in "The Little Prince" when Juliet talks to Sawyer on the beach and he tells her what it was like seeing Kate again when the island blooped to Claire having her baby. Juliet could see the longing in his eyes, and I'm sure she's seen him out staring at the ocean many times, wondering if he's still waiting for Kate to come back. I think Juliet becomes very quiet, not exactly huffy, and I don't blame her for feeling that way. She's been usurped by Kate before (remember her kiss with Jack that she said was more to convince HIM that he liked Juliet, when instead it convinced her that he really wanted Kate?) So Juliet's coldness and awkwardness around Kate is pretty understandable to me. But it certainly puts Sawyer in a difficult spot because he'll never convince Juliet that she comes first, as long as Kate's around.

SonshineMusic said...

@ Nikki: Dharminians (LOVE that word, thanks Sonshine!)

Thanks, but I can't take credit. My sister came up with it and I loved it so much I incorporated it into my Lost vovabulary :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: "If Jack does set off the bomb, even if it does neutralize the other energy, there's still the very real possibility that all of the people on the Island will die. What about all of their lives? Are the people on the plane more important than the Hostiles or the Dharminians?"

Very, very good point. You're right. Jack is only wanting to save the people he has a connection with, and not the ones he doesn't. That said, I'm not sure EITHER one is really thinking about the lives lost. When Kate wants to hold onto her memories, she's not thinking about all the people who died on Oceanic. And when Jack's thinking of saving those people, he's not thinking about the people on the island. They both have tunnel vision on this issue.

Nikki Stafford said...

Laurie: "Does anyone else think that Jack's little mission is going to ultimately cause "the incident," once again just proving the Losties are causing the bad things they are trying to prevent? That was definitely the vibe I was getting."

I've definitely thought that ever since we got a sense that Jack would be the one to try to stop it. It would be consistent with the fact that maybe Ben wouldn't have grown up a hostile man if Sayid hadn't shown up and shot the kid in the first place.

Speaking of which, where the hell is Ben? I really want to see more of the kid. Let's hope he's in the finale.

Anon: "Locke's decision to kill jacob has a smack of Apocalypse Now, with Willard sailing upriver to kill Kurtz."

Absolutely. That and the shiny bald head. :)

"But what I really want to know is where is Rose and Bernard? And where is Vincent? Did the writers just drop the whole mystery dog bit to shorten the seasons?"

I don't think so. Remember in "The Little Prince," Locke finds Vincent's leash on the beach right before they get into the boat and are shot at by the people on the other boat, so they're not dropping the other people. I believe we will get an answer about where they are. I hope it's next week. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Ali Bags: "I'm going to Oahu in July! So excited."

EEEE!! Take me, TAKE ME!!

Hey, we should totally organize a field trip where we all go to Oahu together. And then storm the set. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Brandon: "if Jack (the one who detonates Jughead) stays on the island for 30 years until 2004, he will be alive at the same time Jack (off-island) lands in Los Angeles. How does "erasing" time help Jack (on-island) at all???"

I was thinking if he detonates the bomb, then he dies. So the people on the island would all die if the bomb goes off, ensuring there aren't copies of them somewhere else in the world in 2004.

Nikki Stafford said...

Batcabbage: "Fourth, even if Daniel is REALLY dead (and in this show, what does that mean, anyway?), it doesn't matter. Miles can still talk to him."

That's an excellent point!! Dan seems to be the one person who knows about Miles' gift (remember when they walk over the dead soldiers' graves in Jughead and Miles starts spouting info, and Dan says, "Did they tell you what year it was?" like he already knew what Miles could do and didn't question it) and so Dan would be the perfect corpse for Miles to talk to.

Wow. That last part came out sounding much weirder than I intended.

SonshineMusic said...

And I was thinking...and of course this is all based on "what happened, happened"
How do Kate, Sawyer and Juliet end up back on the Island, if Charlotte, Miles and their mothers end up OFF the Island?

In the current time line, Richard says he saw them all die. That would include Kate, because she was in the photograph.
But we know that Miles, Charlotte and their mothers leave and don't come back. So how does that work?!

Nikki Stafford said...

batcabbage: "Could it be that Locke, in saying that he's going to kill Jacob, is intending to free him from captivity? That Jacob's plea 'Help me' way back in season 3 (is it? Seems so long ago now) was a plea for release, and Locke has interpreted that as killing him? "

That's exactly what I'm thinking, as I suggested. I really believe Locke is heading there for good, and not evil.

SonshineMusic said...

@ Nikki:Hey, we should totally organize a field trip where we all go to Oahu together. And then storm the set. :)

AHHHHHH!!!! COUNT ME IN! That would be totally sweet!

Nikki Stafford said...

Steve: "Is it me or is this the season finally of season three all over again?"

I started thinking the same thing when that damn expedition music started off as they headed off from the beach, and I was thinking, "hey, the last time I heard that, Jack and Naomi were leading everyone to the radio tower." Then Alpert dived into the water and it reminded me of Charlie. But thank you for putting this together. You're right!!

Oh god. I hope this doesn't mean we have to see the Jeard again.

Batcabbage said...

@Nik: I think I may have focussed more on that side, the 'Locke killing Jacob for good not evil' side of things more than I meant to (about which I totally agree with you). What I really wanted to get across is the possibility that our beloved Richard, who's been so enigmatic and such an awesome character, might be up to no good, and imprisoning Jacob, which, I have to admit, I'd never even considered. I mean, it's Richard! He's so cool :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Teebore: "It's been asked before, but how old is Daniel? Is it possible he's already a bouncing bundle of Other joy at this point, and that's why Eloise is so shocked: the man she just killed is the same as the little tyke sleeping in her tent, or something?"

I asked it last week in my DocArzt column; Jeremy Davies will be 40 this year, and while we could accept that Dan looks older than his years (and Davies naturally looks younger, which helps) and his depression and memory loss and difficult life have made him look haggard when he's actually 29, I would find it hard to believe that's his age. But it is possible.

ashlie: "Is it just me, or was anyone else kind of sort of hoping that it was Kate who got shot?"

I'm still very fond of Kate, and like someone else pointed out, didn't really realize it until I thought she'd been shot. I LOVED how she looked shocked and then immediately started manically feeling herself all over to see where the bullet wound was. That was awesome. :)

"I also found it odd the haphazardness of the names on the suits. Sometimes it's lastnames (LaFleur, Radzinsky), sometimes it's first names, (Roger, Jack, Juliet, Miles, Olivia) and apparently sometimes it's nicknames (Hurley)."

Could it have something to do with authority? LaFleur and Radzinsky are higher up the food chain than the others. But then again, Horace's first name is on there. But maybe he had his first name when he was an underling, and as he's moved up in the ranks he's requested that he just keep his first name. Being a hippie, it would make sense he would want his first name on there.

"Oh, and did anyone else notice the protective way that Widmore put his hand over Eloise's stomach before she left? Is it possible she's pregnant with Dan right now? It's got my vote!"

I did notice that!! Can't believe I missed it in my rundown, argh. But yes, I think the reason we don't hear what they're saying is because they're talking about her being pregnant.

I may be right said...

Hmm here is a theory I am not sure anyone has brought up. What if Jacob is Jack? Think about it. If Jack does all this stuff and changes the island and then realizes as usual he doesn't like the results. He ends up staying on the island, in a weird half real state (messing with time always does that) and gives direction to the Others to try to make things like they were before.

Teebore said...

What I really wanted to get across is the possibility that our beloved Richard, who's been so enigmatic and such an awesome character, might be up to no good Agreed: if there's one thing I didn't like about this episode, it was that, the implication that perhaps Richard, in the end, is no better than Ben when it comes to stewardship of Jacob and the island.

For the most of the season, as Richard's role as an "advisor" has come into light, I've gotten the impression that for all these years, Richard has been waiting for Locke. From Widmore and Ellie to Ben and now Locke, he's done his job waiting for the "chosen one", Locke, to appear.

Couple that with the fact that he actively assisted Locke in ousting Ben (further implying Locke's "specialness"), and I'm disconcerted by the fact that Locke's been their leader for less than a day before Richard is questioning his leadership to the man he helped Locke usurp.

Why was Locke so special, why were they waiting so long for him, if Richard simply expected him to maintain Ben's status quo?

Of course, the writers can't be faulted for not confirming MY personal interpretations of things, and there's still plenty we don't know (especially about Jacob, his relationship to the Others, and theirs to the island, and Richard himself) so it's still tough to make any concrete judgment calls.

So for now, let's just say I don't like the implication that Richard, enigmatic and unaging, might be just as human as Ben, especially when compared to the now "something more" Locke.

Nikki Stafford said...

My thinking on all the Jacob stuff is that it's Jack. People have wondered ever since we saw that eye that it might have been Jack peering out the window. Christian is sitting in the chair, and wouldn't it be perfect that Christian, the person who was the mouthpiece for Jacob, is actually speaking for his own son. And it would also play perfectly that Locke goes to kill Jacob, only to discover it's his nemesis, Jack. I can't imagine, at this point, that it could be anyone else.

Nikki Stafford said...

I may be right: WOW, check out our comments!! Are you me? Am I you? That was just too creepy for words... ;)

Benny said...

I hate Thursday mornings. So many comments to read. I have a few thoughts for some. It's not all gospel!


@Robert: The incident is certainly not the H-bomb exploding per-se. This would destroy most of the island. The magnitude of a "Jughead" device is enough to take most of the island. So the attempt at detonating the device may be what causes the incident, but there is no explosion. Since the survivors have joined with the hostiles, they may be killed by DHARMA (In the preview of next week shows Jack walking into the village shooting, possibly wanting to get to the tunnel exit)

@Brandon: If his is the route they take, then it does not help him, but it helps the entity that will be Jack. But it's entirely possible that time would suffer a reset. This would suggest the events we've seen with Locke would then be irrelevant. There are a few different probable cases as to what would happen that it becomes a moot point to discuss it in depth. Several papers could be written on the subject. As Nikki said, he could very well die in an H-bomb explosion.

@Hutch: pregnancy issues may come from the radiation of the H-bomb buried under the village. This suggests the bomb was never moved and used in the original incident frame of reference.

@Ashlie: it was approached before that the jumps were not random. There's reason why they were in 1954, to get the bomb buried and save the natives. Then in 2007 and eventually in 1977. There probably was a reason for them to be in the time of the statue, as well as Rousseau's time. Some timing was also intended to protect them.

Regarding the feed. Since A-TV has contracts with other networks for 10:00 shows or they have their own scheduled show, they must end it within the hour. For ABC, since they live by their own programming, they usually go past 10:00. I always watch ABC (with the A-TV feed) but by 10:00 it cuts back to ABC and the end always plays again for 2-3 minutes with the previews for next week.

@Nikki: Is Vincent becoming the monster? Speaking of the monster, he had to exist prior to the incident since he appeared in the hieroglyphs. He wasn't 'created' by the incident.

Elle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Teebore said...

I asked it last week in my DocArzt columnDuh! >slaps forehead<

See, I knew it had been asked before. :)

Nikki Stafford said...

Teebore: Is it possible that Richard is still disgusted with Ben, and he's just feeding him lies, knowing that Locke is The One? Richard is one of my fave characters, too, so I think there must be more to that. He knows Ben's a poseur and was never worthy of his position as leader, so of course he'd try to mislead him. I think it's because we've never seen Richard do anything that wasn't on the straight and narrow.

And another question: When Dan holds a gun to him, is it possible he could have killed Richard, or is Richard invincible? Could Richard and Smokey be linked? Richard is the quiet, calm side that keeps the island's best interests in mind, and Smokey is the volatile, angry, loud side?

Nikki Stafford said...

Teebore: But it was definitely worth asking again!! :)

Elle said...

Sorry for the deleted posts. Technical difficulties + lack of caffeine = bad.

"Jeard" - that is hilarious! I love "Dharminians" too!

I love the Eloise Is Pregnant theory. That makes Richard's "complicated" term even more awesome.

Benny said...

@I may be right/Nikki: if we are to believe Jacob existed in 1954 when John mentions him to Richard, then there would be more to the story (Jack going back in time AGAIN) or your idea may not pan out. But we don't quite have confirmation of such so you might just be onto something.

@Teebore: Add to that the fact that Locke told 1954 Richard he was their leader, and that made Richard believe in Locke and wait for him. SO when you think about it, Locke created this self-image of specialness and that's what made him special. Richard may be starting to realize that he's nothing special after all.

Batcabbage said...

@Nik: Is it possible that Richard is still disgusted with Ben, and he's just feeding him lies, knowing that Locke is The One?I think it's very possible, and more than likely. The look Richard gives Ben when Ben says 'Why do you think I tried to kill him?' spoke volumes, I think.

Teebore said...

Is it possible that Richard is still disgusted with Ben, and he's just feeding him lies, knowing that Locke is The One? I definitely think that's possible, but I'll also freely admit my personal desire colors my thinking so, because I desperately want Richard (who's also one my favorite characters) to somehow be more than just another person standing in Locke's way, on the level of Ben.

Richard is clearly something more than human, just as Smokey is obviously not human as well, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the two were linked in some way.

As Jacob=Jack, I'm 100% on board with that idea. I've loved it ever since the end of season 3, when Jack and his Jeard showed us all that someday, Jack and Locke's ideologies would become quite similar.

Perhaps the Incident causes Jack to get unstuck in time (like Billy Pilgrim) and he spends decades helping the Others "shepherd" events, making sure whatever happened, happens, in order to make amends for his actions in 1977.

Teebore said...

@Benny

You're right: as far as Richard is concerned, Locke's "specialness" definitely is self-created by Locke.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the implications of that now anymore than I was when it was brought up in "Jughead."

But at the same time, even if Locke sold his "specialness" to the Others himself, he's not wrong: he is special, in some capacity. He has a bond with the island that (perhaps) no leader of the Others (certainly not Ben) has ever had.

Batcabbage said...

The Jacob=Jack idea: I like it, and I also thought way back then it was Jack's mental eye that Hurley saw. Then, when you factor in that Claire, Jack's half-sister is now in the Cabin/Jacob camp, it just gets more intriguing.

Benny: SO when you think about it, Locke created this self-image of specialness and that's what made him special.

Heh. I wrote a Lost haiku about that very thing, earlier in the year in a 'while you wait for lost' post from Nik. It's from Richard's point of view.

Why is Locke special?
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
He told me himself.

Lost insights through the magic of haiku. Very zen. :)

The Chapati Kid said...

Do you think Locke asked Ben to kill him?

I really enjoyed your recap of Jack's character as played by Fox. He truly is a phenomenal actor, and his exploration of Jack's character arc has been astounding. It wasn't until you recapped his entire arc, though, that I saw the complexity of Jack's character, and the way Fox's energy comes from this deep-seated sorrow in the character.

Not sure if you mentioned it in your last post, but I love that Sawyer called Daniel Faraday "Twitchy" when he invites him in.

SonshineMusic said...

I think one of the things that confused me the most about this episode was how bewildered Richard appeared in many scenes. I've always seen him as this wise guide/advisor who helps direct people and therefore knows more than they do. Is he just lost when it comes to Locke, because Locke really is the chosen one?
Maybe he's just used to directing people like Charles and Ben who really don't understand the Island, so when John comes along and has a deep connection with the Island he's feeling a bit at a loss?

Benny said...

@Teebore: There's not denying he's special, but I figure it's not the specialness Richard was anticipating. He's too dangerous for them.

Consider him the Anakin Skywalker. He's special, but not in the good sense and turns sides. But all of this is based on what what could easily be tools of deception!

Teebore said...

@Benny

Good point, about Locke=Anakin.

Plus, it's tough to determine what Richard was expecting from Locke (and, thus, why he's disappointed with what he's getting) without really knowing what the Others' deal/goal is, aside from being relative natives of the island and following Jacob.

Benny said...

What's in a name?

Quick thought. Anyone mentioned that the name James is the Christian variant of the name Jacob? Itself having two debated meanings: 1) "supplanter"; and 2) "may God protect".

We know Jack is derived from a diminutive for John which itself is the English form of a name derived from Hebrew meaning "Yaweh is gracious"

Richard derived from German elements. Means brave power.
Benjamin from Hebrew, means "son of the south" or "son of the right hand".
Charles from Germanic, possibly meaning "army, warrior" or just "man".

Isn't that interesting?

poggy said...

LemonBailey, I surely hope that Hurley will prove to be important so long as communing with the supernatural forces of the Island goes. He's one of my favorite characters, and while it's always good to have a laugh or two (the question about the President was pure continuity gold), I am under the impression his potential is being wasted lately, basically making him the token comic relief. There's much more than that to Hugo.

As far as name tags go, I remember my cousin, who used to work customer service at Disneyland in Paris, telling me that they got to choose the name on their tags, and many of them opted for a nickname of sorts. She said it was a way to keep some kind of distance between you and the customers while still giving an impression of familiarity. I don't know how it really applies to the D.I., but if a corporation like Disney lets you choose what to put on your name tag, I can't see why a bunch of hippies with a mysterious "research" agenda wouldn't do that, too :)

I believe that Eloise's "condition" is addressed when she prepares to go to the tunnels? I immediately assumed this bit of dialogue implied she was pregnant:

ELOISE: You can untie them. And... would you mind giving us a moment? I'm taking them to the bomb.
WIDMORE: What? Are you insane? I'm worried about you. Not in your condition.

And yeah, no way I'm buying that Daniel Faraday is only three/four years older than me :-[ Also, this would make Charlotte older than both Miles and Daniel - very ironic since Rebecca Mader is the youngest in the Freighties group.

I think both Jack and Kate have good and bad points about which timeline is worth saving. Kate, after winning my sympathies since her last centric episode, is going back to grating on my nerves, but I was with her on the "not killing children or detonate bombs" stance. Um, maybe I might be reading too much into this, but it seemed as if she (or the writers) were implying that war and its casualties can't be the only solution for a conflict. Even if I never considered Kate much of a pacifist, but oh well.

More than a Suliet shipper, I am a Juliet fan, so Kate getting into the sub was a bit of a *facepalm* moment for me. It's true that Juliet might look too anxious around her but let's face it: Sawyer *does* still get puppy eyed when he sees Kate. Let me
quote a post that appeared on my Tumblr after the previous episode: "the dumbest thing you can do is calling your ex with the pet name you used back in the old times, right in front of your new girlfriend, especially if they are miraculously able to tolerate each other. The least that can happen is that you won't be getting any from either of them for the next geologic era or two."

I also have to admit that rumors about this episodes being Richard-centric deluded me into expecting some revelation about Mr. Alpert, while I only ended up being more confused. He seemed rather...clueless? I wonder whether the whole "man behind the curtain" trope is going to pop up again in the finale, going with the other S3 parallels (and overall vibe as far as I'm concerned) of this season.

SonshineMusic said...

@ Benny: Quick thought. Anyone mentioned that the name James is the Christian variant of the name Jacob? Itself having two debated meanings: 1) "supplanter"; and 2) "may God protect".

So, if you go with the first one... Sawyer actually becomes Jacob, "supplanting" both Jack and Locke (both Johns) :D
jk

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: "I think one of the things that confused me the most about this episode was how bewildered Richard appeared in many scenes. I've always seen him as this wise guide/advisor who helps direct people and therefore knows more than they do. Is he just lost when it comes to Locke, because Locke really is the chosen one?"

You make a really good point, and I think you have the right answer, too. Like Teebore, I just want Richard to be the good guy because I love that character so much.

But I also wonder if he's spent many centuries (millennia??) trying to find the Chosen One, only to be let down again and again. And now... he's found him. And he'd probably long ago given up hope of that ever happening. Locke left, like he asked him to, returned, like he told him to, came back to life, like he never thought he would... Locke is fulfilling some sort of prophecy that maybe Richard was starting to believe was just a bunch of hooey. It's like a devout Christian who believes so strongly in Christ, but their life keeps falling apart, and they stop believing for a moment... only to witness a miracle occur. Of course they'd face it with trepidation at first, despite believing in it for so long.

I think Richard is still a good guy. I want him to be. :)

ejbelair said...

any fans of donnie darko here??? after watching the last few episodes, and reading A LOT of stuff online, i'm seeing some slight similarities between the movie and Lost. I'm picturing everything going to "plan" and the final scene of the series showing Jack on the plane flying over the Pacific with some memory of what happened. In Donnie Darko, Donnie changed events in the present, to bring different things to light about (or for) several other characters. Then, time reversed, but all those people had some memories of what happened. Something is giving a similar feeling about the eventuality of the Lost characters....

dan said...

Well, remember that every time Locke thinks he knows something he completely screws EVERYTHING up (hatch anyone?). Maybe Alpert really should be concerned about a confident Locke. Also, Locke may be the only one that knows that Jacob needs help (ghosts are not supposed to stay on earth, after all, so something is blocking his path to the afterlife, assuming he is human). I had the impression from earlier episodes that Ben was maybe ignoring Jacob to do what he wanted, but now that exchange with Ben and Locke seemed to confirm that he's been lying because he's never seen Jacob. This seems to conflict with Ben's judgement by Smokey.

"Is it possible Eloise shaped his entire life to the point where she thought she could CHANGE him being killed? Why not just steer him away from the island?"

I think that Ellie is trying to save her son by helping Jack, and then when things go wrong with the bomb she will convince herself to never try and change time again. Plus, something has to cause that electro-magnetic field that makes everyone go nuts when coming or going from the island.

Does anyone still like Kate? She's becoming the fool that moves the plot forward whenever the writers can't think how to end a situation logically, imo. Saving Ben, REALLY?! I still can't swallow that, but going back to a camp where you just shot people is pretty close on the dumbo-meter.

Jason and Alicia Halm said...

John Locke IS Jacob. Though I am starting to wonder if Jacob is Jack now ... trapped in a time-pocket limbo - I mean - Claire and Christian are all bouncing around the island after their deaths - is it a family thing?

Nikki Stafford said...

dan: Really good idea about why Ellie will change her mind.

As for Kate, I do still like her. And I agree with her about saving Ben, oddly enough, because Ben the boy hasn't done anything wrong. You don't just go around killing innocent children, and that's all he is at the point where Sayid shoots him.

Charon said...

My theory about Locke killing Jacob? The Island is directing him to. I believe that the Island does not want Jacob on it. Jacob protects himself from Smokey with the line of ash that we saw encircling his cabin. The Island's final solution to rid himself of this negative entity--Jacob--is to have Locke kill him. I believe Locke is now a direct instrument of the Island.

Benny said...

@ejbelair: That's a nice parallel.

latelylost said...

@The Question Mark

I've noticed a lot of parallels with HDM and, in all my searches of Lost sites for theories, you are the first one I've seen mention it.

Remember the ash circle around the cabin when Ben and Locke first visited? There is a very clear shot of Locke reaching down and disturbing it. Maybe this unlodged the cabin physically just as God's glass coffin was dislodged in HDM. Hurley found the cabin in a different location. Didn't Will and Lyra then break the coffin, thus freeing God and allowing him to die? Perhaps Locke will destroy the cabin and free/kill Jacob.

(ETA @ Charon

I think the ash circle keeps Jacob inside rather than keeping Smokey or anything else out. John and Ben had no trouble walking over it and Jacob was asking for help. Why would he do that if he was protected?)

But I'm still trying to work out why Christian is now speaking for Jacob. I like the theory about how his presence (and Claire's) ties back to Jack.

Also still trying to work out any connection to Horace and family. Was the cabin co-opted by the Others after the purge or is there some significance to Horace's involvement?

Ethan is seen with the Others early on and I believe that Amy is Amelia, so they both survive the purge. Does Horace send them to the Others as a result of the Incident? Does he defect as well now that crazy Radzinsky and Phil have stripped him of his leadership? Unlikely, as he ends up in the pit, doesn't he?

We've been basing the date of the purge based on Horace's statement that he'd been dead for 12 years. Is it possible that Horace was killed later, and thrown in the pit as an afterthought? If not, then Ben and Ethan appear to have been making extended visits to the Others 3 - 4 years before the purge(Alex kidnapping - they were not dressed in Dharma clothes).

I'm hoping that Richard is a good guy, too, Nikki. It seems like, though, in history, a power behind the throne can only be secure as long as his ruler is malleable. I'm sure there were many advisers who outlasted their monarchs just as Richard's role outlasted Charles and Ben as leaders. He may find an unmanageable ruler in Locke.

@Nikki

Locke is fulfilling some sort of prophecy that maybe Richard was starting to believe was just a bunch of hooey.

I this this is a very astute observation. Locke's speech about no one actually having seen Jacob underscores the idea that perhaps Richard has perpetuated an old myth for years - there's no indication that Charles or Ben ever saw Jacob. It may be a revelation to Richard that the myth is a reality.

Going back to The Incident: Richard told Ellie that Daniel wasn't going to kill him. I wonder if Richard is just a good judge of character or if he knows the future or if he knows he can't be killed? Or does that mean that there is a possibilty that he can, in fact, be killed.

I did think that having Eloise recognize her handwriting was a good way to make her leap of faith believable.

Looks like Sawyer, Juliet and Kate all get off the bad CGI sub somehow. And we'll see Frank again (YAY!!) and the big shiny box. Hopefully, we'll also see the outrigger chase flashback and learn if Juliet managed to shoot anyone. (I hope it's not Frank.)

This is my first (and probably last) comment, Nikki, so I'll take this opportunity to say how much I enjoy reading not only your blogs, but the comments of your very intelligent regulars.

Great analysis by all of you.

SonshineMusic said...

Off topic, but thank you, thank you, thank you, Nikki. I have fallen in love with The Prisoner. I'm almost done with the series and will be ordering the DVD set as soon as I can :D

latelylost said...

Ack - stupid me.

That should be "going back to The Variable" not "going back to The Incident."

Sorry

Benny said...

@latelylost: during the purge, when Ben comes back to the village with all of DHARMA dead an lyng around the village, Horace is lyng on the bench and Ben closes his eyes, so Horace did die in the purge.

Benny said...

I also saw His Dark Materials referenced by a fan site earlier in the series. I think it was in season 3. Obviously it didn't fit as well as it does now but there still were parallels worth mentioning.

Unfortunately I don't remember where and what it was. That's how minor it was back then.

dan said...

"But I'm still trying to work out why Christian is now speaking for Jacob. I like the theory about how his presence (and Claire's) ties back to Jack."

I hadn't thought about the family connection before reading these posts today. interesting... Jacob as someone out of time. Now we know what happened to the other crash survivors! ;)

Sorry if my comment against Kate seems harsh, I still want to like her. I like her presence and have no problems with the acting (or Evangeline), it's just the writing seems to always point her in the same 'cliched' direction (although that critcism is a bit unfair on a show where people can conveniently lose memories, I admit).

latelylost said...

Thanks, Benny.

flexible said...

I must be watching something different. I can't see anyone moaning about Sawyers selfishness. I love Sawyer but last night was terrible for him. Forget the schmoopy nonsense with Suliet. That relationship with all of it's "having backs" lingo, holding hands and touching cheeks does nothing for me. Sawyer however, was ready to abandon Kate, Hurley and everyone else to go and buy microsoft and live in the free world with Juliet? How about Jin and Miles that he convinced to stay and follow him to the beach? Right infront of him they were looking for Hurley. No love for the fat guy anymore? I thought it was very unsawyerlike for him to leave his friends to an uncertain fate just to go off with Juliet. I know he feels responsible for her having made her stay for 3 years but does that responsibility outweigh his loyalty to his friends? I hope the finale reveals he had a plan if not, Sawyer is no better than Jack. Yeah, Jim La Fleur would get on the sub and not care about his friends and for all the talk of the "new" Sawyer because of Juliet, I bet you, the old Sawyer would never do that. The old sawyer went back for Claire, Hurley, jumped out of copters and went with Jack so he would not get to die alone. This zombie like sawyer is just the pits.

I read someone criticising Kate as on what Kates purpose is. Kate ALWAYS has a purpose. You either like the purpose or you do not. The better question is, what is Juliets purpose? What has been her purpose since season 4? Juliet has gone from being a kick-ass character to a pathetic smirking kept woman who is filled with so much insecurity that if her supposed man so much as blinks at freckles she becomes mopey and weepy. They've drawn every last drop out of Suliet that they can. The reality is, Juliet knows as most of us do, that, the contrived plot device that is Suliet must come to an end in one way or the other because that is not the romantic tale of Lost. It's done it's job this season but we are heading into endgame now and no need for obstacles and plot devices. The real stories need to play out. Suliet is not one such story.

I thought Kate was kickass this episode and I perfectly understood her being upset with Jack wanting to wipe off everything including Jate whether she broke it off herself is irrelevant. One of the best lines has gotta be the line she said to Sayid and Jack about children and hydrogen bombs. I forget it exactly. BTW, I can ship Kayid. Loving sayid saving Kate :) Sawyer is too much of a wuss now for Kate anyway so, she and Sayid have always been kick ass. If we had more than a season to go, I would have liked some of that :)

I love how she got into the sub and said "hey" to sawyer barely acknowledging Juliet. LOL. Love it Kate. That's right. Here I am. say what you like. Don't hate the playa, hate the game. If Suliet is really as great as some think, lil old Kate oughtn't to be a problem but she is and we all know why. Sawyer is still very much inlove with his freckles. He feels responsibility, loyalty and some kind of love for Juliet but that's not the chic he wants to name dumb stars with. Buy microsoft? Perhaps :) Stars? Nah. That's freckles and Juliet knows it, hence, her constant "oh poor little me" looks anytime Kate or the spectre of Kate is raised in her fantasy life, which is 99% of the time.

What the heck does Alpert mean, I watched them all die? What's up with Locke? Why does he want to kill Jacob? Love Eloise. Why did Hurley repeatedly say Sawyer won't leave us and he must have a plan? Maybe he does.

David said...

Sorry I have not looked at previous comments to see if anyone else has posited this, but my wife I think Locke is going to kill Jacob because he is not the true 'leader' of the island and John needs to restore the leadership back to the Island. We believe Jacob (& the others) have taken over the island. The origins of which may be the Black Rock. "Smokey" is a manifestation of the true people of the island (4 toed Foot) and somehow Ben and the Others have some control over Smokey. Obviously, not total control, because Ben has said he can only summon it. Also, I believe, as many others do, Christian is a manifestation of Smokey. If memory serves, Ben or Richard have not seen Christian. The first time Ben and Locke were in the cabin, Ben never saw anything. Locke saw Christian (in the shadows) and he was the whispering 'Help me'. CRAZY? please poke holes as my head has been swimming all season.

Thanks!

Nikki Stafford said...

latelylost: Thank you for your wonderful comment, and I really hope it's NOT your last!! It's a pleasure having you in our group. :)

Sonshine: Oh yay!! I'm so glad you're enjoying The Prisoner! And it only occurred to me the other day, but when Widmore is standing on the dock being banished from the island by Ben, he looks at Ben and sneers, "Be seeing you, boy." Interesting he uses the very line that's used throughout The Prisoner (I pulled that line as my favourite at the top of the episode, and then never made the connection until I posted my "Be Seeing You" blog a few days later... DUH). I just wish Widmore had made a circle over his eye with his thumb and index finger and then flicked it away the way they always did on the show. :)

David: That's definitely another great theory. Either he's going to kill Jacob because he wants Jacob out of the way (bad Locke) or he's killing him to free him (good Locke) or he's killing him because he's realized Jacob is actually a bad guy and a threat to the island (good Locke). Yay, two votes for good Locke! :)

ashlie said...

David, I think the person in the shadows that Locke saw was Jacob, not Christian and it was Jacob who said "Help me". I can't remember if Ben has had any encounters with Christian though. I'm curious as to where you think Richard fits into your theory; is he an original inhabitant, or someone else?

David said...

ashlie-
I actually think it was Christian whispering that. It was assumed it was Jacob, but it definitely was Christians profile in the shadows and you can see the sneakers...That's my story and I am sticking to it (at least for another season!). Thanks!

PS-I LOVE THIS SITE. I immediately check it after I have watched the latest episode (Central Time). Nikki does not disappoint!

ashlie said...

I'm gonna go with the screen cap looks nothing like Christian, but I could be proven wrong!

Benny said...

@David: It's Jacob. Since the producers didn't know who would play Jacob, they used a set producer to stand in for the Jacob silhouette.

Christian appears in the cabin with his white shoes when Hurley peers through the window. And, obviously, also when Locke talks to him and Claire.

Sources: E! interview and Official Podcast

ashlie said...

Thanks for the clarification, Benny! I knew I'd heard something about that that was cleared up for sure by Darlton, but couldn't remember where and didn't want to say crazy things without the sources to back me up.

The Shout said...

Another great episode in an already great season! And another great write up from Nikki.

The Island must have set Locke's bull**** detector to maximum when it resurrected him. The way Richard and Ben's suggestions/manipulations just washed over him was pure genius. Suddenly they both seemed completely out of the loop.

The whole bit with Locke leading them to his past self was one of those great Lost scenes where it dawns on you what's about to happen 30 seconds before its does.

In the first scene between Whitmore and Eloise, did anyone else notice that he put his hand on her stomach (to indicate she was already pregnant)?

i cant help thinking that Radzinsky's future in the Hatch will be his penance for his refusal to accept the Losties warnings.

And finally, Richard's line about seeing everyone die makes me think the inevitable Incident will be the event that returns the Losties to the present day. The way they linked the past and present through Richard gave me a feeling that the two timelines are about to converge.

Nikki Stafford said...

David: Thanks for the kudos! I'm so glad you're enjoying the site and all the great comments on here. :)

Benny is correct. What you're thinking of are two different incidents. There was Man Behind the Curtain, where Locke and Ben go to the cabin, and Ben pretends to talk to Jacob, and Locke actually sees him. What we saw was an older man sitting in the chair, and it was Jacob saying Help Me.

In the season 4 premiere, Hurley comes across the cabin and looks in. An eye suddenly appears at the window, and that's Jacob. In the background is Christian, his mouthpiece, sitting in a chair wearing the shoes. So the eye is Jacob, man in the chair was Christian, but the man who said Help Me was Jacob.

And the third instance, Cabin Fever, is where Locke goes in alone and Christian and Claire are sitting there. This time, no Jacob (that anyone can see) and it's just his mouthpiece.

I hope this clarifies it! :)

Benny said...

@The Shout: And finally, Richard's line about seeing everyone die makes me think the inevitable Incident will be the event that returns the Losties to the present day. The way they linked the past and present through Richard gave me a feeling that the two timelines are about to converge.

To further that, if the incident creates a riff that links 1977 and 2007 briefly, are Ilana and Bram's intentions to go the other way and try to invade 1977? This is why Eloise has been pushing everyone to do what they're 'supposed' to do, so that this opportunity happens. 2007 is the new now and they could get back and change history. So Jack et al. would come back to an altered future. Just thinking out loud.

The Shout said...

Benny, love the idea about the rift. Maybe The Shadow Of the Statue people want to change the past/ future for there own ends and know when and where the rift is due to open.

Also, could Jacob has attempted this a sometime in the past/ future is now trapped within in?

Larisa said...

I'm a little confused about the video that was released at Comic Con last year of Pierre Chang trying to get a message to the future. When did he make this video? It sounded like Daniel was helping him with the video, but Daniel was dead before Dr. Chang started to accept that 815ers were from the future. There seemed to be no time between him accepting that fact and getting his family on the sub. Baby Miles was crying in the background during the video. Any thoughts?

David said...

well, there goes that thought! Thanks all for quickly sinking my ship! (My brain hurts)

Benny said...

@Larisa: I think the (now) widely held belief is that the ComiCon video was only a tease with clues as to what the season would be about. The story/script within the video is non canon.

Perhaps we'll be made to believe otherwise and Faraday was actually not the one making the video. Who knows!

ashlie said...

@ Larisa -

I think Damon and Carlton have confirmed that that video is not canon and therefore doesn't fit in with the continuity of the show. It sounds like it's best to just think of it as a promotional tool.

Although, if anyone has heard any different, I'd love to hear it!

Nikki Stafford said...

David: Don't be sad! I still love your theory about Jacob being the evil leader and needing to be taken down. :)

dan said...

Larisa, is it possible that the cry for help into the future from Doctor Chang was never made because Daniel is actively trying to change the future and maybe he's done something tat will prevent that from happening?

dan said...

I can't remember if the question of why Radz. didn't care to interrogate Kate about the location of the others. I had 2 thougths on this:

1) "Lafleur" drew a map for Radz so he didn't need to ask Kate.
2) Do we know for a fact that she wasn't interrogated before boarding the boat?

Nikki Stafford said...

My DocArzt column is now up here:

http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-news/what-nikki-noticed-515-follow-the-leader/

Seabiscuit said...

Great recap!

But I was pretty disgusted with Suliet and didn't find their scenes to be at all "sweet" or romantic. I was especially furious when Hurley was all "He'll save us!" and Sawyer was all "Let's invest in Microsoft and get rich." while Juliet just smiled like an idiot. Poor Hurley still believes in his friend, he doesn't know he's been abandoned. I still love the guy, but he has sorely pissed me off. He better get his butt back there and help his friends.

Oh, and I think Kate getting on the sub was the Island/universe's way of saying "And where the heck do you two think you're going?! I'm sending her to get you back to where you belong, got it?" XD

redeem147 said...

SAYID!!! (I could hear redeem cheering from here...) Actually, I smiled and said, "Hi, Baby."

Soooo many comments. So just a few things. I think Richard was a high priest before the Island. His role is both spiritual and to support the leader.

The artifacts we've seen have never been all Egyptian. I think various cultures have had influence on the Island.

I think Jacob wants to die. I think that's why he asked Locke to help him. He's trapped in that magic binding circle, and he wants to be free.

I don't care who ends up with who, as long as Sayid makes it to the end of the series.

Oh, and I didn't find it odd that Miles called Sawyer Jim. It's his name.

Batcabbage said...

I just went over to check out Nik's Doc Arzt post (excellent, as always), but a little tip for anyone wanting to remain spoiler free - DON'T READ THE COMMENTS. First comment after the column spoiled something pretty damn significant, and the next post (helpfully, although after the fact) said 'Ooh, spoiler alert'. So read the column, but watch out for the comments if you want to remain spoiler free.

Michele said...

One nitpick with the director/producers that bugged me: When Locke is getting ready to go off into the jungle with Richard and Ben, he stops to speak to Sun. It is in bright sunshine and he tells her that he will be back in a couple of hours. When Locke reaches the plane, it is pitch black. When he gets back to the beach, it is still pitch black - obviously more than a "couple of hours" have passed. He then talks to everyone on the beach and says that he's heading off to see Jacob right away and he wants them all to come along. When they then leave the beach, it is daylight.

I just find it funny that the show has such intelligent writing and very complex plots but they have such simple little mistakes in continuity and flow.

brodal said...

Michelle-my theory is that there's more to it than bad writing. I think (and I could be way off base here) that it's the shifts in day and night between scenes has something to to with little changes that are occuring in the past so that everything happens a little differently, such as maybe originally Locke had the conversation with Sun in the morning/afternoon but because something changed how events occurred previously, maybe Locke showed up in the evening because he got tied up with catching the boar (fir example). I'm thinking it's done on purpose, just like last week with Miles and Faraday from the sub to Jack's house.

Nikki-please don't hate me for continuosly getting your name wrong. I just realized I've been spelling it with only 1 k. My brain has been on meltdown!

Again, love your recaps and reading the thoughts/theories of your group. Like someone else said, my brain isn't big enough to wrap around all this complexity!

Nikki Stafford said...

Batcabbage: Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry!! And THANK YOU for the warning. I'd be devastated if I went on and saw a spoiler (and I feel terribly that you did). I've emailed Doc and asked him to remove any spoilery comments. I'll let y'all know when it's safe to head over there. :(

redeem: I didn't find it odd that Miles called him Jim, either; I just thought it was a nice touch on the part of the writers. And it isn't necessarily his name. My husband's name is Robert, but his name is definitely not Bob or Bobby. Just because that's a diminutive of the name that some people use doesn't mean he does. Sawyer was either Sawyer or James, and he switched it over to Jim.

Michele: You know, that bugged me, too, and I'd love to come up with an explanation of it (anyone know if nights are shorter in the South Pacific, being closer to the Equator and all?) other than if Sun was on the beach at 5, and a "couple of hours" stretched into 5, then it would stand to reason that they would be late. And maybe they talked Locke into taking a quick siesta before setting out, hence the daytime trek (and it could have been 6am and sunny). But I know I'm making excuses now...

Brodal: No worries! People spell it every way you can imagine: Niki, Nicki, Nicky... I'm used to it. :)

redeem147 said...

My husband's name is Peter. I call him that, he calls himself that. But his brothers call him Pete. Sawyer is also called James and Lefleur is Jim, but James is also Jim. I bet when he was little they called him Jimmy. :)

I don't think Richard saw them die. I think he saw them flash out during a cataclysmic event and thought they'd died.

I think that Jack is going to find out that you have to play the card you're dealt. No do-overs.

Batcabbage said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Leah said...

Nikki, great post! I am new to your blog but not your awesomely epic books. If anyone hasn't read them you are missing out.
Radzinsky is about to destroy my last nerve. I feel sorry for Kelvin as he was trapped in the Swan with him for so long.
Dr Chang....maybe he is an expressionless scientist?

Batcabbage said...

@Nik: No worries at all, not your fault in the least.

Ali Bags said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ali Bags said...

@Nikki anyone know if nights are shorter in the South Pacific, being closer to the Equator and all?I'll let you know in July! SQUEEEEEE!

(would love to storm the set with any volunteers but I guess they won't be filming in the summer)

Actually - I'm in Hong Kong (which is a similar latitude to Hawaii) and nights here are actually longer in the summer. It gets dark at 7pm, light at about 5:30am.
In winter it gets dark about 6pm, light at about 6.30am

Ali Bags said...

And when it gets dark in these parts, it gets dark suddenly.

It can be very sunny at 6am.

SonshineMusic said...

@ Nikki: I just wish Widmore had made a circle over his eye with his thumb and index finger and then flicked it away the way they always did on the show. :)

That would have been hysterical, but I wouldn't have caught it at the time. I keep getting the urge to say, "Be seeing you" and do that, but then I think, oh, wait. No one I know would have any idea what I'm talking about :(

SonshineMusic said...

@David: I love the idea that Jacob is one of the usurpers (fitting in with the name thing that was pointed out earlier) and that Locke is setting out to reclaim proper ownership of the Island. Wouldn't that be interesting?

@flexible and Seabiscuit: regarding Sawyer etc. This will sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not:) really. And I'm not shipping either. At this point I've kind of lost interest in who ends up with who, except how it affects the individual characters and the arc of the show. Having given my disclaimers...
I agree with you. My point was that the chemistry has been working better with James and Juliet. However, and I've said this multiple times before, I don't really like James. Or Jim. Or LaFleur. I like Sawyer. He's become a bit of a wussy man now and you're right, even more selfish than before. It did bother me that he agreed to give the Dharminians information if they would put them on the sub.
I was expecting him to put Juliet on the sub and then not get on himself and that would have been a much better ending (imo). Juliet is safe, which kind of completes his responsibility toward her, but he helps his friends who are counting on him to come back to the beach and help them. And none of that has to do with his feelings for Kate. Yeah, I think he still feels something for her, but that ship has sailed.

Maybe next episode will bring back the Sawyer I miss.

Ali Bags said...

Also to anyone thinking Sawyer has abandoned his friends to make it rich on Microsoft shares, I think this is what we are supposed to think.

Remember Hurley saying 'Don't worry, Sawyer always has a plan.'?

He's up to something.

Ali Bags said...

@ SonshineMusic LOL! We were thinking about the same thing at the same time. Spooky.

SonshineMusic said...

@Ali Bags: LOL - you know what they say about great minds :)

winsmith said...

Just a couple thoughts;

Could the reason Richard frequently seems clueless in 2009 be beause he has suddenly lost the ability to see the future (similar to Eloise)?

Could Locke's new found confidence (and knowledge) be because he's really not Locke but Jacob (or Smokey) inhabiting his body ever since his resurrection? This would not be much different from Christian (and others) being dead but still appearing now and then.

Hisham said...

Jack is Jacob? Why not? Remember when the jerk Danny Pickett said back in Season 3 that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list?
Maybe he was trying to save his other self some pain, which did occur anyway because of Ben's interference and cancer. Or maybe he was trying to change something for himself, or perhaps was ensuring that his other self did what he was supposed to do.

tsavonglah said...

Yeah, you're right Nikki, Richard's ship model was the Black Rock. This picture has a good comparison to the auction in The Constant: http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x15-easter-eggs/01-black_rock.jpg

Anonymous said...

I enjoyed your article. However, I disagree in thinking that there is something wrong in the Dharma "police" not interrogating Kate to find out where the Hostiles are--Sawyer had already told them with his map. Or did he really...? Doesn't matter because they THINK he did, so they probably didn't feel the need to ask Kate for information they already thought they had.

Nikki Stafford said...

Anon: "I disagree in thinking that there is something wrong in the Dharma "police" not interrogating Kate to find out where the Hostiles are--Sawyer had already told them with his map. Or did he really...? Doesn't matter because they THINK he did, so they probably didn't feel the need to ask Kate for information they already thought they had."

Good point. A couple of others have posted this same defence. However, a couple of things bother me about that. Sawyer drew them a map. How do they know he's not leading them to the island McDonald's rather than to the hostiles? They don't actually check out the map (there's no way they'd have had time) before they let him go. Secondly, if they're going to beat him to a pulp to get him to make his drawing, why not at least detain Kate until they know his map is true, and if it's false, then they've got someone in custody who's actually been there? Why not interrogate her about what she knows about the hostiles?

They didn't just ask Sawyer a few questions and get a little angry... they beat him to a pulp. They're serious about this, and yet when it comes down to it they don't really seem to take the proper action to get things done.

Nikki Stafford said...

batcabbage et al: Doc assures me that he's removed the spoiler (and then promised it was a speculatory spoiler and not an actual one) so it's safe to go back to the comments. I hope. I'll venture over there with one eye closed. ;)

Mike said...

I was wondering if anyone else noticed that the columns surrounding Jughead were not egyptian. I thought they looked Greek myself.

scrvet said...

Even if the bomb goes off and there's no electromagnetic surge I think the plane crashes for another reason. Oceanic 815 was meant to crash based on the people on that flight. Why would Richard seek out Locke as a child if there wasn't a divine plan for him to be on the island. Richard wouldn't have known about the flight back then.

redeem147 said...

Sawyer drew them a map. How do they know he's not leading them to the island McDonald's rather than to the hostiles? Because that would be Hurley's map.

Nikki Stafford said...

redeem: LOLZ!!! OK, that was my big laugh of the morning. :)

Ez said...

God i hate kate...she gets in the way all the time and just thinks of herself.and lol as if she cares for Jack and their relationship. last i thought, she was the one who dumped him.

i much prefer Juliet, the "hother" (hot+other)

SonshineMusic said...

Actually, I think Hurley would draw them a map to Mr. Cluck's hehe :)

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the point was of putting Kate on the sub. Unless she cut a similar deal with them? But there really wasn't enough time. And I do think it was odd that they assume Jim is going to give them an accurate map. They're much more trusting than our Losties were with "Henry". Very odd.

@scrvet: That's a very good thought and fits in with the whole course correction thing. I really don't think there's a way to change everything. It's too big.

Another thought, where would Desmond be if the plane had never crashed? His boat still shipwrecks and if the button doesn't need to be pushed then Radzinsky and, therefore, Inman never end up in the hatch. Would Des end up with the Hostiles? Living alone? Stranded forever with no hope for being reunited with Penny :(

Nikki Stafford said...

Sonshine: This is just speculation, but I don't think Desmond would have ever gotten on the boat. I think Widmore orchestrated Desmond heading to the island as a guinea pig. I think Libby is some sort of agent (haven't quite figured out exactly what kind, but she interacts with 3 people who get on the plane) and she gets him on the boat, and she's working for Widmore.

So if the incident had never occurred maybe things would have played out a little differently on the island, and maybe Widmore would have never left, and therefore Desmond wouldn't have been sent off on his guinea pig mission (actually, in that case, if Widmore had never left the island, Penny wouldn't have been born, so Desmond wouldn't even be a factor). Hm.

Yeah, this is just another reason why the future can't be changed drastically. I think it would just change too much.

dan said...

Just a thought on Richard saying to Sun that he watched her friends die: we did see Richard lie to Locke in this episode. Sure, older Locke gave him instructions to "lie" to younger Locke, but now we've got a precedent. We know that Richard will, under certain curcumstances at least, lie to people about important stuff. One could argue that Richard wasn't lying because John told him the truth, but Richard did not believe it and was surprised when "older" Locke tells him that it was in fact true that young John had to die. Richard even says something like, "he believed it" when he gets back.

SonshineMusic said...

Nikki, of course, if Penny had never been born and Des never ended up on the Island he would be available ;)

Nikki Stafford said...

Uh... erm... oh man, I never thought of that. In that case, BLOW UP THE ISLAND, JACK!!!!!

The Shout said...

Is it possible that Jack detonating the bomb is the real cause of The Incident? Throughout the season we've seen characters who, by attempting to change the past, are contributing to the very outcome they are trying to prevent.

Meanwhile, Locke MkII deliberately influenced his past self in order to perpetuate the existing timeline.

Benny said...

The Shout: Yes it's possible, especially since it's the most believed and most talked about theory on Lost forums and fan sites. Ever since Sayid shot Ben, that's what the greater part of the community has believed.

My question is: what's season 6 going to be about if next week's episode is the incident and confirms everything?

Teebore said...

@Benny

I've been thinking the same thing about season six. I mean, the list of questions that still need answers as the show wraps up is lengthy, but I can't fathom what the story used to answer those questions will be. Cuz I doubt we'll just have 16 episodes of infodumps.

I'm thinking the focus will most likely be on the prevention or fighting of this war that Widmore/Ben/Eloise keep saying is coming.

And I'll bet that Ilana/Bram/the Shadow of the Statue people will figure prominently in that as well. I think it's pretty safe to say whatever their role in this season's finale is, it will most likely be setting up their role in the next season moreso than winding down their involvement in the story.

SonshineMusic said...

Jack has been acting rather paradoxically (is that a word?)

He won't life a finger to save Ben, because Ben is still alive in the future and so can't die in the past. But now he's set on changing the past so he can change the future. I understand that he had the discussion with Faraday, but over and over they've been told that what happened, happened and have seen it play out. Faraday, acting all crazy tells him one time and that's all it takes to convert him? Besides, he now says that it's his DESTINY or fate to keep destiny from happening.

SonshineMusic said...

*lift. oops :P

Teebore said...

Faraday, acting all crazy tells him one time and that's all it takes to convert him?I think it helps that Faraday told Jack exactly what Jack wanted to hear: that he CAN fix things, after all.

And there's nothing the Mad Doctor likes to do more than try to fix things.

Which, tangentially, is why a part of me still thinks that Daniel died firmly believing that whatever happened, happend, and that the consequences of altering that are so catastrophic that he willing walked to his own death.

IF it turns out that Jack's actions actually are the cause of the Incident and all the pieces of the chain thereafter, then it seems that Daniel was simply telling Jack what Daniel knew Jack needed to hear in order to do what Daniel knew Jack HAD to do.

Benny said...

@Teebore: that's obviously right about Bram and Ilana. And it makes sense that they would be the antagonist (or at least prominent members) of next season. For me, if the incident happens as it happens and whatever happened, happened; then the entire war/culmination of the show would completely be anticlimactic. There has to be something more to the effect how the past and the role of everyone affects all of this.


As for Jack changing his mind. It should be noted that everyone from the future acted on Faraday's clause that the past cannot be changed. So Jack doesn't care for Ben, whatever he decides to do, Ben will be Ben. So perhaps by not helping, Ben may die, or not; there's complete indifference to it.

But when Faraday returns, he sings a completely different tune, and given that Jack had been there for only some days and not years, he's much more inclined to believe anything actually coming from Faraday himself than what someone else's explanation of what Faraday had said three years ago (is that too chaotic?).

If you left for three years and came back home, then someone tells you your best friend believed something three years ago. Now he comes back and tells you a different story, what are you more inclined to accept? What someone thought he believed three years ago or that HE says he believes now?

The immediacy and closeness to the statement and individual who says it entrusts confidence to the one who hears it. Jack's behavior is only consistent with human behavior.

Benny said...

And Teebore is also right about how hearing what you want to hear helps you believe it more.

SonshineMusic said...

@teebore: then it seems that Daniel was simply telling Jack what Daniel knew Jack needed to hear in order to do what Daniel knew Jack HAD to do.

Very true. I hadn't thought of it that way. Of course, the cynical tv part of me is thinking, of course, what happened, happened, because if Jack really can change things then there's no reason for a sixth season :P

Teebore said...

@SunshineMusic

You're right, which ties back in with what Benny said: if whatever happened, happens, then it does make the next season a bit anticlimatic.

In the same way that the capability to change the past makes all present actions devoid of conflict (because you could always go back and do it over), a strict adherence to "whatever happened, happened" also robs the story of some drama, because what's the point of doing anything if you're fated to do it anyway and can't change it.

Which is why I think the answer lies somewhere between "changing the past" and "whatever happened, happened" (or, in other terms, between free will and destiny). And I'll bet "course correction" has something to do with it, especially since the theory of course corrections (as espoused by Eloise) is that some events ARE variable, while others are constant and unavoidable (Charlie is going to die; but the time/place/means of it can be changed).

I also still like to think that Jacob/the Others are somehow responsible for "shepherding" events to ensure that the "right" things happen, all of which would be pointless in a strictly "whatever happened, happened" world.

dan said...

For season six I see two main directions that they could go:

1) Daniel's plan to change things succeeds and then the sixth season is about what happens in the new reality on the island (my guess is this is less likely, but the producers may pull the rug out from under everyone)

2) Jack fails at the plan to change things (or Kate & Sawyer screw things up, same result)and ends up doing what he was supposed to (like Daniel getting shot by his mom) and then next season we will be back in the present and we'll finally see the war we've been hearing about for so long.

Benny said...

And if it lies in between, where you have the ability to change things but the 'story' is set in clay (for lack of a better word. Then it partially ties in to that brief paper I posted last week, in which things can be changed but only in a way that allows them to be changed!

Now THAT's twisting and turning!

Benny said...

By the way is anyone still watching FRINGE here, because I stood by it all along and I have SOOOOOOO been rewarded. I think once the season is over, it's worth watching on DVD, or in some other fashion which may or may not require bandwidth usage, in anticipation of the confirmed second season.

In this past episode, the penultimate of the first season, there's some explanation of realities and what some may call event probability.

SonshineMusic said...

@Teebore: And I'll bet "course correction" has something to do with it, especially since the theory of course corrections (as espoused by Eloise) is that some events ARE variable, while others are constant and unavoidable (Charlie is going to die; but the time/place/means of it can be changed).

I had forgotten about Charlie and that whole thing (well, not forgotten :( but not connected it to current events)

I pointed out somewhere along the way, though I don't remember if it was here, on my blog or just to my sister, that Desmond saved Charlie's life so that Charlie could die the way he was supposed to. He was the only one who could have figured out that musical code and so Desmond had to keep him alive until that point.

So various people (whomever that may be - Eloise, Charles, Jacob, Richard, Ben, etc.) are guiding the inevitable so that it happens in the correct way. Maybe flight 815 was always supposed to crash, but they guided events so that it happened the way it was supposed to - and, as of right now, I think one of the major things that was supposed to come out of that crash was the arrival of Locke and his journey to become the true leader of the Island. jmo.

Or, they are arranging things now so that the crash still happens, but in a different way to lead to as of now unknown end results. I would think that that story line would be too much for them to wrap up in one season, but so much has happened this season that you never know.

joshua said...

BENNY -- I swore I'd given up on FRINGE several episodes ago but then neglected to reprogram the DVR, and boy, am I glad I didn't, because you're right: the last few eps have been truly worthwhile. I just hope they can get over their notion of "less serialized is better" next year, because it's these mythology-type, Big Picture episodes that have been so great, IMHO.

SonshineMusic said...

Returning to Jack and my earlier comments and Benny and Teebore's responses...

I just realized that Jack's encounters with Ben and Eloise prior to coming back to the Island all had the hint of you have to go back to change things. To fix things. So thinking this is the reason he went back to the Island sets him up to readily believe Daniel's claim that they are the Variables that can change things.

Whether Daniel actually believed this himself, maybe we'll discover through Miles someday :) or Hurley - he's also got a history of communicating with our lost Losties

The Shout said...

Benny / Joshua: Also loving Fringe at the moment. Now the mythology of the show has been laid out it really coming into its own and Walter Bishop is one of the greatest TV characters ever!

Back to Lost and a few thoughts on the characters relationship to time:

One of the (much discussed) main themes of the show has always been the relationship of the characters to their past, in particular how it informs choices in the present.

In the first couple of seasons, we see how personal history inform character choices.

With the flashforwards we took a step back to see how these decisions effect the future.

This season in particular we have seen how personal history is brought to bear on general history, in this case, that of The Island. In direct constrast to previous seasons where it was the Island and its history which effected the characters, it is the now the characters that are shaping the past.

I think we'll be seeing the early history of The Island through one or more of the characters eyes before the series ends.

flexible said...

@sonshine-virtual bet just for fun? Sawyer and Kate ship gets back in the water come the finale and all I want you to pay is a "you said it! Flesible" on this site ;) Deal?

Kate showed up on the sub because ours is a show about destiny and fate. The destiny and fate of the characters on the Island. Kate showed up at the end of La Fleur and here she is again, just when the Le Fleurs were getting all schmoopy again..LOL. The Island is not done with Sawyer. Juliet never was and never can or will be Sawyers destiny. Tis just not fated to be so :)

I am still holding out hope that Sawyer has/had a plan. With Horace maybe? It was just too obvious, Hurley saying those lines and Sawyer looking at an Island he had been calling home and saying he belonged to just a few hours ago, and saying "good riddance"? It was so melodramatic, more like he was doing it for the audience rather than what HE felt. We will see.

Locke must have a reason for wanting to kill Jacob and they better tell us what it is because I am not understanding this new Locke. I even understand Ben more and that terrifies me.

Benny said...

I was just re-watching the episode and coming directly from Jack's mouth:

"Maybe I was wrong!"

Isn't that the first time he admits to such a thing?

Hisham said...

All right. During the whole season I didn't actually struggle with trying to understand time travel on the show that much. But this last one is quite a pickle for me. So, please, anyone help me understand it or even correct me if I'm wrong.
In the original scene between John and Richard in "Because You Left," Richard says to John that the survivors weren't on the freighter when it exploded and that they're already home.
Except that they aren't!
They are here, on the Island, dead or alive, if they all actually died in 1977 (except Sun).
We haven't actually heard Locke saying that to Richard during his instructions, but they actually didn't show everything said, because if you remember, Locke spent like a minute alone after he came out from the jungle before Richard showed up. So let's assume Locke told Richard to tell that to his younger self, why would he do that?
It's like a viper eating its own tail. If the plan already worked and they did come back, why go to help younger Locke in the first place and why lie to him?

SonshineMusic said...

@flexible: virtual bet just for fun? Sawyer and Kate ship gets back in the water come the finale and all I want you to pay is a "you said it! Flexible" on this site ;) Deal?

Deal...Although I don't really ship anymore, the only one that ever worked for me was Skate. So I wouldn't be disappointed if that turned out that way. As long as we lose Jim and get Sawyer back :)

@Benny: I was just re-watching the episode and coming directly from Jack's mouth:

"Maybe I was wrong!"

Isn't that the first time he admits to such a thing?

LOLOLOL!!!!!! I think so!

The Shout said...

Hisham: Your analogy of a viper eating its own tail is dead on.

From Locke's perspective, Ben turns the donkey wheel and the time flashes begin, he is shot by Ethan and meets Richard who gives him the motivation to leave The Island and bring back Jack & Co.From a historical view point this event takes place in 2007, which to Locke at that time is in the future.

Without this motivation he would never leave the Island, never die,Jack & Co would not return and the resurrected Locke would never be able to get Richard to motivate his past self. Philosophers call this a casual loop.

Your right in saying that when Richard passes on the info to Locke, he is aware Jack and the others have returned to The Island but if he were to tell Locke this, again Locke would have no motivation in leaving The Island etc.etc.

Hope this is clear. My head hurts now, so I'm going to have a lie down.

Benny said...

@The Shout: I'm sure everyone figured it out but it's causal loop

I know that's what you mean, just wanted to make sure no one get confused by 'casual loop'.

Ali Bags said...

Where is little Ben in 1977?

The Shout said...

Thanks Benny, I did mean causal loop. I think my brain was beginning to melt from time travel theorising!

Hisham said...

The Shout, thanks for putting it this way. It makes sense that Locke was trying to put himself on the path that led him to the current point.

myselfixion said...

So was the Journal given to Daniel as Eloise found it? Already completed? And if present-Locke just got the compass back from present-Richard, is there another compass given to present Richard from past-Locke?

So confusing...

Roland said...

Locke's last 5 words in the Ep - "So I can kill him" sure stopped Ben in his tracks - and cast a whole different light on the Richard/Ben/Locke relationship. If RA and Ben were afraid that JL had intended to “free” Jacob and that they were losing control of The Prisoner to a naive Island Servant unaware of Jacob’s Evil Nature, then these five words place John, Richard and Ben squarely on the same Good Guy side.

My thoughts on Jacob: Mikhail referred to him as a Magnificent Man and also told John, Sayid and Kate that they weren’t on Jacob’s List because they were Flawed. Obviously Mikhail was on Jacob’s List along with Bea and presumably a number of other Others.
Danny said that Jack wasn’t on Jacob’s List, which implies that he himself (and his Hater wife Colleen) were. So ... it seems to me that Jacob is a Bad Guy Hater and deserves to be Imprisoned. If Ben and/or Richard are his Jailers, then they are by implication Good Guys

Note that Danny, Colleen, Ethan, Mikhail, Bonnie, Greta, Ryan, Jason, Tom and more are all dead now - a Second Purge initiated and managed by Good Guy Ben. I think that the Rules surrounding CW’s Banishment included protection for his “Loyalist” followers. Ben could take no direct deadly action against them. In return, they were required to obey him - which they did, reluctantly at times.

My thoughts on Jacob’s Colleague “Christian”: A Parent who would perpetually undermine the self-confidence of his son, a Husband who would constantly cheat on his Wife, a Doctor who would advocate the murder of a comatose patient and a Spirit that would casually tell a Self-Sacrificing Hero that he “can go now” is an Evil Being. Had Christian succeeded in killing Carole, Kate could not have dumped Aaron into her lap and hopped onto Ajira 316.

Stan said...

Is anyone else interested in seeing Richard take off his shoes to find out if he has 4 toes on each foot!?

I posted in an earlier episode that I thought the US government or the US Army in a Top Secret mission (even without the knowledge of the government) might be involved somehow in the mystery of this island. Remember, a platoon (I believe it was a platoon, which consists of about 50 soldiers) was killed by the Richard and the Others and "Jughead" was left behind. I don't think the military would just forget about that. Maybe something on a par with US Air Force's files on UFOs which are also Top Secret. Widmore seems like a very military type. Or does everyone think that this is just too improbable?

Roland said...

I’m thinking that there’s a connection between Team Jughead and the DI, especially based on the evidence that the Island DI seemed to have a strong Military component ... lots of weapons, a military-style submarine ... even the name of Dharmaville - “The Barracks” - is Military. Before sending in their Science Team, the DI probably sent their Military Team in first - to “pacify” the Hostiles (another Military term). Note that Alvar Hanso made his fortune in the Arms business. He could easily have been involved with Team Jughead, long before his involvement with the DeGroots. The “Top Secret EYES ONLY” photo of the Island dated 9/23/54 on display in the Lamp Post supports this connection.

Anonymous said...

I have what is maybe a bit of a crazy thought.

I was thinking about what some people have been posting about Jack = Jacob.

The very first thing we ever saw on Lost was Jack's eyeball. Since then, we've discovered that a beginning closeup that means that the episode is (nearly always) about that persons flashbacks/forwards.

So if Jack=Jacob, is it possible that the whole of Lost is about Jacob's flashbacks/forwards?

-Alicia

mgkoeln said...

Just logged onto "The Fuselage" for the first time in years and found an exciting catch that no one seems to have posted here so far:

In Richard's 2007 others camp there's a woman who looks exactly like an aged Juliet. Might she stay behind next week and lead a double life on the island? Look for yourself - this might actually be Elizabeth Mitchell with age make-up:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=129381&fullsize=1

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=129879&fullsize=1

Benny said...

I saw that too. And if it is Juliet, it implies there were two Juliets as members of the Others in season 3, the one who hadn't traveled in time and one who had.

I don't know. To me, there are some repercussions that would just stretch the relationship she had with the Others that I just didn't mention it.

If they do confirm that it is her, then it's just adds depth to what happens in 1977.

SonshineMusic said...

If that should turn out to be true about Juliet, then that means that she completely believes in "what happened, happened", because otherwise, I would think that she would approach herself and try to change things. After all, her life pretty much stinks

humanebean said...

Late to the party again! Now I know what our Euro-friends go through, having to wait to see and episode and then scramble to catch up after the fact. Barely had time to watch this (spectacular) episode and need to see it again when the time permits.

As to the Jacob=Jack theory, interesting as it may be, Damon & Carlton refuted this notion a while back, saying that Jacob was "someone we haven't met yet". Barring their devious attempts to mislead us, this would seem to indicate that we DON'T know the character of Jacob as yet ... but perhaps can expect to soon.

Great episode, excellent recap as always and fantastic comments by all. Can't believe I have to endure the delay again this week, as I will be at SFO airport on Wednesday evening, waiting to board a redeye back East. Sooooo, looks like I'll be watching the finale Thursday morning sometime. Oh, the humanity!

Blam said...



Late to the party again!
You and me both, HB. I had a migraine last Wednesday, saw the episode over a day late, and didn't catch up on comments here until yesterday. Only now are the replies getting banged out.

Nikki Stafford said...

Blam and humanebean: you guys were sorely missed. I really hope you'll be by my side this Thursday! Safe travels, humanebean. :)

Sorry to hear about the migraine, Blam. Those can be crippling. :(

humanebean said...

Aw, thanks, Nik! You can be sure that I will come tearing into my driveway Thursday morning(about 6:30am local time), fling open the door, fire up the TV machine and be mesmerized within minutes.

Blam: I feel your pain, my brutha from anutha mutha - I get migraines, too and can sympathize. Take care of yourself, bro!

Blam said...


Nikki: I really hope you'll be by my side this Thursday!

Me too, Nik. I really hated to sit out with such a meaty episode, great recap, and fascinating discussion this week. And I'm sorry if the text barrage to come feels like too much, too late, but I didn't want to be completely absent right before the finale.

Thanks to both of you for your sympathies on the migraine. I've been dealing with that crap far too often for far too long, and last week's was particularly severe. And HB, if you're going to San Francisco, be sure wear flowers in your hair; they'll really set off that Cyclops thing you have going on. 8^)

Blam said...


Nikki: I loved it; it definitely created the bridge between the second half of the season and the finale ...

Yes it did. T minus 48 hours and counting!

Nikki: From the focus shifting back to Locke to Richard Alpert appearing in all of the timelines

I don't know if the producers have ever promised us a Richard flashback, but since he was key to both periods, this could be considered one -- if the Richard of 2007 remembers what we're seeing the Richard of 1977 do. We'd still better get a proper look at Richard's story, though, even if it's in the series finale.

Nikki: Last week when we saw a clip of [Jack] saying this in the preview, we, too, were shocked, knowing that so many bad things would have happened if the crash never occurred: Hurley would believe he was cursed; Charlie would be a heroin addict; Claire would give up Aaron; Kate would be arrested; Jin and Sun would be miserable; Jack would have to face his mother, who half-blamed him for Christian’s death; Locke would be a paraplegic; Nikki and Paulo would still be alive ...

Ha! My reply on this whole Jughead plan keeps getting longer, so let me move on to other stuff and come back to it.

Nikki: I don’t mean to be cruel to the guy playing Chang, but ...

I'm with you on this, Nikki, as well as on the terrible sub fakery. Smokey looks obviously unreal, most of the time, but I can chalk that up to its being a fantastic creature in-story; that submergence scene was laugh-out-loud in all the wrong ways. With Chang it's not only disappointing that the actor is so one-note but, for me, that we're seeing him outside the context of the orientation films in a generally underwhelming manner; he was such a mythic figure that while it's exciting to meet him as a man on one level the thrill is deflated because he's being cheapened more than he's being humanized.

Blam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Blam said...


The Question Mark: After all, Jacob's first (and only) words so far were "Help me." The dude is obviously in some kinda pickle.

Maybe whoever Jacob is has died out in the real world but has a strong enough connection to the Island that he still exists somewhat spiritually on it, and is asking for his body to be brought back so that he can be fully reborn. I'm not sure if this holds up, or -- like many of my off-the-cuff hypotheses -- if I even believe it, but it's an interesting idea. Hell, this is Lost, so Jacob could literally be in a pickle somewhere.

There are also interesting parallels with the Jacob of the Bible. Genesis says that "Jacob was a simple man, a dweller in tents," which sounds like the nomadic Others (well, as nomadic as you can be on an island). Also, Jacob was a dreamer, remember, and another famed Biblical dreamer was Daniel, which as long as we're spitballing could suggest a connection between "our" Jacob and Daniel -- even that Daniel is the perhaps temporally trapped entity now known as Jacob, although as Benny's reminded us we've heard from the showrunners that Jacob is an entirely new character. Let's not forget too that Jacob cheated twin brother Esau out of his birthright, leading to the previously mentioned connotation that name has of "usurper"; another definition of the name became "he who wrestles with angels" after Jacob did just that in Genesis. And the Biblical Jacob eventually became known as Israel, giving his name to an entire people, which we could take to mean that Jacob is the very founder of the Natives; perhaps whomever or whatever they revere as God promised to its followers an everlasting kingdom as did the Israelites' in the Bible.

Blam said...


Joshua: What is "the same way we brought [Jughead] in"?

I don't see a practical correlation, but this made me flash on the scene of Richard building the ship-in-a-bottle. They probably didn't get Jughead in the tunnels that way -- it was already a fully formed thing with no collapsible parts -- but it may have been a hint, at least, to his cleverness in dealing with apparently insoluble problems.

The Question Mark: Jacob is God, or the Authority, rarely seen and rarely questioned. Alpert could be Metatron.

I've done some very layperson research into the Bible and extraBiblical literature, in college and for some writing projects, but I confess all that I didn't recall much of Metatron beyond his status as chief agent or spokesangel of God, as you suggest -- and of course I thought of Alan Rickman's portrayal in Dogma. Thank Heaven for the Internet, because some quick clicks revealed that in the Talmud (a book of supplmentary stories to and thoughts on the Hebrew Bible) Metatron is present in the story of Rabbi Elisha ben Abuyah, who for perceived heresies is refered to as Acher, Hebrew for... "Other".

Benny said...

@Blam: I'm not the one who mentioned that the showrunners said Jacob was someone we hadn't met yet. But thanks for the mention!

As for "the way Jughead was brought in", I've speculated that it is through some bigger tunnel entrance that is located within the barracks. My only argument is that we see Jack waltzing in pointing a gun.

Blam said...


Sonshine Music: I didn't think that Kate was only talking about her and Jack when she said us.

Samesies!

Teebore: [H]ow old is Daniel? Is it possible he's already a bouncing bundle of Other joy at this point, and that's why Eloise is so shocked: the man she just killed is the same as the little tyke sleeping in her tent, or something?

Ashlie: [D]id anyone else notice the protective way that Widmore put his hand over Eloise's stomach before she left? Is it possible she's pregnant with Dan right now? It's got my vote!

I'm pretty sure I heard background dialogue with Charles asking Ellie about her "condition" -- but Nikki herself said, "I think the reason we don't hear what they're saying is because they're talking about her being pregnant," which confused me, because it ain't like I got a souped-up TV. Wait! I've just read Poggy's post, and she's transcribed it. (Grazie!) How did some folks, including Jeff Jensen, whose post-episode column I finally read today and who pointedly refers to the fact that we can't see or hear what Ellie and Charles are saying at a crucial point, not hear this?

Batcabbage: What I really wanted to get across is the possibility that our beloved Richard, who's been so enigmatic and such an awesome character, might be up to no good.

Teebore: Agreed: if there's one thing I didn't like about this episode, it was that, the implication that perhaps Richard, in the end, is no better than Ben when it comes to stewardship of Jacob and the island. ... I'm disconcerted by the fact that Locke's been their leader for less than a day before Richard is questioning his leadership to the man he helped Locke usurp.

Totally samesies!

Unlike my earlier grousing about Dr. Chang Halliwax-Candle's underwhelming presentation, the blame here is laid squarely at the writers' feet, since Nestor Carbonell is only playing what he's given.

While it's still possible that Richard is pulling a Ben on Ben, like Teebore I'm concerned that it feels like I have to talk myself into seeing it that way. Not only don't I enjoy Richard seeming so venal or base, I don't enjoy him seeming so humanly venal or base, and so just plain flappable. Maybe he was indeed once an Egyptian god or an alien visitor, or both, and inevitably he would become more human over time, but conversely even if he were born a human, say as shipmate or slave on The Black Rock, living for presumed centuries amongst mortals who come and go would surely remove him from them. I know we don't know what Richard is yet, but whether human, superhuman, or suprahuman, I don't like seeing his previously established calm and seeming surety of the big picture eroded like this. He's clearly not omniscient, and when Sawyer confronted him in 1954 and 1973 we learned that his consciousness isn't linked across time as some earlier supposed, but, well, I think I've made myself clear.

And by the way, Batcabbage, right before reading your callback to the Richard Alpert haiku thread I revisited it myself for a little pick-me-up while thinking on this very topic.

Benny said...

For those who haven't listened to the podcast yet (or usually don't) there are some un-spoilery answers about the compass, the ComiCon video and who's good/who's bad/who's undecided.

Blam said...


Benny: I'm not the one who mentioned that the showrunners said Jacob was someone we hadn't met yet. But thanks for the mention!

Oops... Sorry! That was Humanebean, I see.

I thought about your probabilities paper while at Star Trek this weekend, by the way, although technical formulae aside I'd like to think I already had a pretty good grasp of that stuff thanks to lifelong exposure through comic books and other fantastic literature (and film, like, say, Star Trek).

Has anyone yet formally posted upon here? And have you thought of writing about that stuff on your own blog?

Sonshine Music: I think one of the things that confused me the most about this episode was how bewildered Richard appeared in many scenes. I've always seen him as this wise guide/advisor who helps direct people and therefore knows more than they do. Is he just lost when it comes to Locke, because Locke really is the chosen one? Maybe he's just used to directing people like Charles and Ben who really don't understand the Island, so when John comes along and has a deep connection with the Island he's feeling a bit at a loss?

I'm of like mind with your premise -- as well as your possible explanation, although as mentioned I liked Richard smoother, and wished the explanation/rationalization weren't necessary.

Scrvet: Oceanic 815 was meant to crash based on the people on that flight. Why would Richard seek out Locke as a child if there wasn't a divine plan for him to be on the island. Richard wouldn't have known about the flight back then.

Richard sought out Locke as a child based on what Locke told him when they met during the Left Behind castaways' time-trip back to 1954. The fact that we'd already seen Richard meet young John Locke in a previous season's flashback, in fact, is a leading point in refuting that the time-trips were creating history anew, not that it's out of the realm of possibility for Richard to have sought him out anyway. His frustration with young John at not choosing the "proper" items, though, could compound his frustration with Locke in the present day, giving him a shorter fuse as he realizes that he's only ever championed John Lock as leader on Locke's say-so.

Oceanic 815 may not have been meant to crash based on the people on that flight. My as-yet-unposted thoughts on Jack's plan to rewrite history includes callbacks to our discussions over whether history went wrong before that flight, as Lapidus was supposed to be the pilot and Christian was supposed to land on the Island alive in place of Jack, as Shephard, and John, as shepherd.

Sonshine Music: Jack has been acting rather paradoxically (is that a word?)

Uh... Yes and no.

Blam said...


Benny: For those who haven't listened to the podcast yet (or usually don't) there are some un-spoilery answers about the compass, the ComiCon video and who's good/who's bad/who's undecided.

How long are the podcasts? Are the audio podcasts just the audio portion of the video podcasts? Is it worth going back and listening to previous podcasts if I like the latest one, in anticipation of the finale?

Benny said...

@Blam: I've thought commenting on my Blog and posting things but I don't always have time to write extensive stuff. Usually, when I write up a paper or brief, it's based on posts written here. But I might just take you up on it for the summer and next season (if I keep it up).


As for the podcasts, they are 22 min. pieces with Damon and Carlton. They usually discuss the previous show and pre-hash the coming one, suggesting their own theories and asking themselves questions, as well as answering a few fan questions. The better part of it is the high-larity.

It's probably not worth going back and listening to the previous ones, but if you find yourself bored, take a 22 min. break and do just that! Sometimes it nudges some thinking about the show or can just be a relief in times of stress.

Benny said...

Oh, and the video podcasts are usually 5 min. interviews with the cast and sometimes members of the crew.

Blam said...


It's probably not worth going back and listening to the previous ones, but if you find yourself bored, take a 22 min. break and do just that!

Had I but world enough, and time... If I'd remembered early and often enough, listening to the podcasts likely would've become an an enjoyable habit, but, yeah, I'll check out the latest on your recommendation and stop there.

Blam said...


I don't always have time to write extensive stuff. Usually, when I write up a paper or brief, it's based on posts written here. But I might just take you up on it for the summer and next season ...

Hey, I hear ya. I've been vacillating all season on doing per-episode blog entries, but just about all my Lost energy gets focused here on the tremendously enjoyable, rewarding conversations here. I really do need to get my massive Fringe / Dollhouse essay up this week, though.

Blam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Blam said...


Nikki: [A]t the heart of Jack’s actions is his need to fix things, to fix people, to fix situations. My heart went out to him in this scene, and I really felt for him.

I really liked him making sandwiches while refusing to save Ben's life a half-dozen or so episodes ago, but this is Same Old Jack to me, and it's wearing thin. When he proclaimed that he was going ahead with Daniel's perceived plan, all I heard was, "Hi, I'm Jack Shephard. Whenever I have a brilliant idea, please, whatever you do, don't go along with it, because I'll just royally screw things up... and refuse to admit it... then sulk about it, start drinking, and maybe grow a beard. But I reeeally want to help."

Nikki: [S]o many bad things would have happened if the crash never occurred: Hurley would believe he was cursed; Charlie would be a heroin addict; Claire would give up Aaron; Kate would be arrested; Jin and Sun would be miserable; Jack would have to face his mother, who half-blamed him for Christian’s death; Locke would be a paraplegic; Nikki and Paulo would still be alive ... But on the flip side, there were 324 people aboard that plane. Of those, 71 survived the crash. By 2007, the only Oceanic people still alive are the 6 who leave on the helicopter, and Sawyer and Locke on the island. Rose, Bernard, and the redshirts have all disappeared. Is it not worth sacrificing the personal growth of a handful of characters to bring back all those people?

I'll grant that from an empirical standpoint, as a wise man once said, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". But it's often the point in irony-laden time-travel stories that none of us know if anybody would be better off if X event was changed -- in this case, if Oceanic 815 hadn't crashed on the Island, if it's even possible to bring that about. The issue of personal growth, or "redemption" as it's been tagged since early in the musings on Lost, is only part of the story, although admittedly an up-front concept given that Jack is focusing purely on the number of lives that will be "biologically" saved. And remember that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one," and in a way Jack is piling ego on top of selfishness if he's doing this assuage his guilt at having not been able to save the survivors who died post-crash.
It's an open question as to whether the lives led by those who died in the crash or during events on the Island would be "worth living", or even if the heartache we expect would define the lives of Kate, Jin & Sun, etc., based on the trajectories of their pre-Island lives would occur. We really just don't know, and that may be what makes Jack's plan so bold and/or reckless, depending on your position -- I'd say the latter, again because it's clear that, in his reversion to a stereotypical "Man of Science" position, Jack believes that saving people in this instance means having them alive rather than dead, period. So many bad things would have happened if the crash never occurred? So many things change once you negate whatever "Incident" triggers the design of the button-pushing that the same people wouldn't even necessarily be on that flight 27 years later...

Unless, thanks to Destiny, they'd be on that flight or an equivalent one in the changed timeline because that's just How Things Are Going to Be -- but then nobody gets "saved" anyway.

And this is without taking into account that by the rules of the Lost universe the deaths that Jack is trying to undo may through some kind of cosmic balance be inevitable, even if the plane indeed never crashes. He could avert the crash, leaving who we know as the survivors to the fates you describe, only to have the other characters who perished die their destined deaths in their daily lives, inescapably, like those Final Destination movies that I never saw but, hey, I used to watch Ebert & Roeper.

Speaking of fate, kismet, or inevitability also makes me wonder how much of the Destiny stuff we've seen can be tied specifically to the Island -- which has been spoken of as wanting or needing things and can apparently actively or passively keep Michael from taking his own life or shunt some of the returning Oceanic survivors through time -- and how much is an overarching cosmic rule that applies to the world at large. Even Mrs. Hawking's "course correction" concept, which you'd think would apply universally, has really only been seen in action regarding people whose lives are intertwined with the Island, although granted that's the focus of the show.

There's also the possibility that all of this time-traveling and mucking about in the past has been course correction, of one of two sorts. Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid could be inescapably fulfilling the history that they know, as seems to be the consensus opinion, or changing it to re-establish a preferred timeline that we've never seen. We mused at one point that the Oceanic 815 flight itself wasn't how things were supposed to be, that the crash might have been part of Destiny's plan but that it should have been Lapidus piloting instead of Greg Grunberg and Christian Shephard instead of his son arriving alive (and perhaps communing with the Island instead of Locke as more than the specter that he is now).

Maybe Jack's plan, or some variation on it, will work and we'll see the Oceanic 815 that we know land safely, with the echo of the previous reality ringing in our protagonists' minds, only to discover that Jack's father wasn't in a coffin on the plane because he was alive on the Island or in Australia working to get there after seeing Claire or something like that, because what was done 30 years ago shunted things back in place to make that possible. Could the Incident be not an inevitability that Jack's going to fulfill despite himself but instead an event akin to Ben turning the Frozen Donkey Wheel and shunting reality on the wrong track? I didn't like the idea of the reality that we knew being reset, until I wondered whether the whole point of our gang's adventures is to set this wrong reality right. And now it scares me that I'm thinking like Jack Shephard.

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