“You found your loophole.” “Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I’ve gone through to get here.”
First of all, can I just give props to SonshineMusic for making me my awesome new Dharma logo? I’m so thrilled with it. I need to get it on a shirt. Or a work jumpsuit. :)
Anyway, tell me what the following things have in common:
• a guy who sleeps with a girl after wooing her for several months, only to never call her again after he’s gotten what he wants (no, this hasn’t happened to me)
• a driver in a car on a really rainy day who drives too close to a woman pushing a child in a stroller just as they’re walking by a ginormous puddle, and sends a tidal wave over the two of them and keeps on driving (yes, this has happened to me)
• two writers who build up an incident for an entire season and know that the next season won’t start for about 8 months, and they leave it the way this episode ended
If you guessed, “These are all about JERKS” then you guessed correctly! The difference with that final one: I’d follow them to the ends of the earth. Hell, if they asked ME to kill Jacob, I would have done it.
What a glorious episode. Freakin’ amazing awesomesauce gloriousness. Where to begin?!
And it turns out Jacob is....
Nope, not Jack. Not Christian, either. Not John Locke. Not Roger Workman. Not Horace. It’s... Rita’s dickish ex-husband from Dexter! I TOTALLY called it back in... oh whatever. I was actually THRILLED that Jacob was someone we hadn’t seen. It opened up the show in a million different ways. The episode opened with Jacob (bathed in white: white clothes, white sand, white fish, white tapestry) being visited by
Jacob’s home visitsSo we see Jacob visit several of the people and touches each of them, but there were two that were unlike the others: He visits Kate when she’s a child, touching her when he hands her the lunchbox (the same one she and her buddy Tommy will later bury under a tree as a time capsule, along with his toy plane, right before he’s shot and killed as she’s trying to visit her mom). He visits Sawyer at his parents’ funeral, touching him when he shakes his hand. Visits Jack when he performs the now-legendary 5-second-fear surgery. Jin and Sun get a visit at their wedding. He seems to bring Locke back to life after his father throws him out of the window and changes his life forever. But notice how different the Sayid and Hurley visits are: they happen after their return with the Oceanic 6. So... what do his visits mean? Were they to get those people on the plane? If so, how did Hurley and Sayid get on the plane, if he only visited them AFTER they returned from the island?
The Man in Black
So if I understand this correctly (and I probably won’t until the end of season 6) there was another person on the island, one who embodied the darkness of it. Jacob seems to remain on the island physically, while the other one has left and has to find a way back. He’s unable to kill Jacob, and must find a “loophole,” i.e. someone else who can do it for him. Has this other man been priming Ben for 35 years for this very moment? Has he been priming Locke for even longer for the same reason? I’ve made so many comparisons to Ben and Locke and how their lives are so similar, but now they’re even moreso: for it would appear that despite all their beliefs and willingness to comply, they were nothing more than pawns in the bigger game between Jacob and the other man. Does this dissipate the Ben/Widmore war? Because that one was immensely fascinating to me, but this one is obviously a much bigger one.
And the other thing this indicates is... Locke is really dead. He’s not coming back, he never will, and he really died at Ben’s hand. Locke didn’t get his resurrection; he never found confidence or peace. He died an angry man who believed he was a failure, who never did anything right in his life, who was always the gullible loser. This revelation is hidden beneath the much more shocking and dramatic not-death of Juliet, but in the end, Locke is dead. And I found that immensely sad.
Highlights: • That opening. Awesome, awesome opening.
• Richard: “I’ve seen things on this island that I could barely describe but I’ve never seen someone come back to life.” Locke: “And I’ve never seen anyone who doesn’t age. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen.”
• Jack telling Richard not to give up on Locke. Interesting that just when Jack finally believes in Locke, it’s no longer Locke, apparently.
• Locke asking Ben why he hasn’t told Richard about the plan to kill Jacob, and Ben saying because he thought it was a secret, and Locke’s response: “When did THAT ever stop you?”
• Richard with the sledgehammer. I don’t think we’ve ever seen him being so violent!
• Vincent!! ROSE! GRIZZLY BERNARD!!
• Frank: “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
• Locke: “You mind if I ask you a question?” Ben: “I’m a Pisces.”
• Locke: “Well, it’s a wonderful foot, Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?”
• The smackdown between Jack and Sawyer. It’s been five years coming, and it was such an amazing cartharsis for both of them.
• Hurley: “Don’t worry, dude. Everything will be fine when Jack changes the future. Or the past. One of those.”
• The way Ben walks into the statue and is immediately drawn to the fire at the end of the hallway. Emerson shows such regret and longing in this episode. He’s amazing.
• The looks on everyone’s faces when Jack is about to drop the bomb. It was a beautiful moment... and interestingly, when he thinks he’s at the end, Sawyer looks at Juliet, not Kate.
• Sawyer: “This don’t look like LAX.”
• Phil’s death. Best death since Nikki and Paulo. WOOT!!
• Emerson (again) when he pleads with Jacob, “What about me?”
Did You Notice?:
• Matthew Fox pulls off haggard really well. I’ve never seen a character look more realistically like he’s been emotionally hit by a Mack truck than Jack this season.
• Well, we all assumed last week that Widmore touching Eloise’s stomach tenderly suggested she was pregnant, and we were correct. How much do I love that a mainstream television show features a fetus of a child coming along on an expedition that is being steered by... his own journal notes?
• One of my favourite moments in the episode was the discussion between Sun and Ben, where he tells her that he was once the leader of the island and the leader is the only person who can meet with Jacob and takes instruction from him, and then she asks what Jacob is like and he says, “I dunno. I’ve never met him.” Sun’s face = utter confusion.
• Bram refers to Lapidus as a yahoo, which is what Sawyer called him when he came to the helicopter at the end of season 4.
• I was convinced Widmore was in the box, with an oxygen tank or something being kept alive.
• Richard refers to Eloise as “our leader,” meaning Widmore is NOT the leader of the group, it’s her. Did he become the leader after she left the island?
• The CGI on the departing sub is just as bad as it was last week. Ugh.
• Sawyer says they’re looking at the north shore. Kate argues that the sun is setting on the wrong side for that to be the case. Sawyer asks her if she has a compass. Juliet looks longingly at the departing sub while listening to them flirt. The look on her face says, “Just kill me now.”
• When Vincent runs up to Sawyer on the beach, there’s a rainbow in the sky. Could have been there naturally, or it could be a reference to the Noah’s Ark story, where God sent a rainbow as a promise that he would never wreak havoc on the world like that again. Interesting that it appears right before they’re about to set off their own apocalypse.
• Bernard’s first words are “Son of a bitch,” in homage to Sawyer.
• I was a little annoyed that, despite wanting to be “retired” and on their own, Rose’s first words when seeing her old “friends” were, “Oh, HELL no.” Rose could always be crotchety, but way to have some old ties there. Sheesh. Luckily their next scene made up for this.
• Considering Rose and Bernard are wearing the same clothes they’d been wearing when they were being shot at with flaming arrows three years earlier, they’ve kept those clothes REALLY clean.
• Bernard: “We just care about being together.” Bernard looks at Rose, Rose looks at Bernard. Juliet looks at Sawyer. Sawyer looks at... Kate. Kate looks at a leaf.
• The dog painting is still in Jacob’s cabin, but the jars of liquid are gone, along with many other extras that had been there before.
• Jacob’s reading Flannery O’Connor’s “Everything That Rises Must Converge.” Me, by the way: “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...” Last time the writers threw a book in the finale at me was season 2. I HATE them for adding this to my already rushed writing schedule. ARGH. Anyway, enough of my bitching. This book is a collection of O’Connor’s short stories published after death at the very young age of 39 from lupus. The story titles, which are indicative of this season, are:
o "Everything That Rises Must Converge"
o "Greenleaf"
o "A View of the Woods"
o "The Enduring Chill"
o "The Comforts of Home"
o "The Lame Shall Enter First"
o "Revelation"
o "Parker's Back"
o "Judgment Day"
• Ben tells Locke he’s a Pisces in an effort to make him go away. But just like everything else, that’s a lie. We know that Ben’s birthday is December 19, but the Pisces sign is for those born from February 20 to March 20. Interesting, however, that the astrological sign for Pisces is VERY similar to the sign that Juliet was branded with in “Stranger in a Strange Land.” • So, Sun walks up to Aaron’s old crib and I said to my husband, “You know, I’ve always been disappointed that no one ever found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring.” And then she reached in and picked it up. I threw my arms above my head, “YES!” My husband couldn’t stop laughing, and said, “You truly are a geek.”
• Jin: “We will never be apart. Because being apart from you would be like the sky being apart from the Earth.” And... apparently that was SO long you couldn’t memorize it? Interesting, though, that both Jin and Sun fell from the sky to the Earth, and then he remained on the Earth while she took to the sky once more.
• Jin says that Jacob’s Korean is excellent... they noticed the same thing about Charlotte. Could there be a connection?
• I really enjoyed the hallway scene with Jack and his father. Jack is still a student, and Christian is his teacher, and he saves the patient and Jack’s cool by helping the situation. Then he tells him what a great job he did, and Jack berates him for giving him a “time out” and embarrassing him in front of his friends. Christian wonders aloud if he’s the one who doesn’t believe in Jack. Good question: it’s not necessarily everyone else who thinks Jack is getting special treatment, but Jack thinking he should get it.
• The girl playing young Rachel looks a lot like older Rachel.
• I love the idea of Hurley’s curse being a blessing in disguise.
• Not-Locke tells Richard that he thinks he’s just making up the rules as he goes along. Is he? Who was on the island first, Richard or the other guy?
• Miles once again speaks for the fans, suggesting something fans have speculated about for weeks, that maybe Jack causes the incident, rather than stops it.
• Juliet quotes Jack’s “Live together, die alone,” but it has a different meaning coming from her. She leaves out the extra parts, “if we don’t live together, we’ll die alone,” and instead insinuates, “We lived together, now we’ll [I’ll] die alone.”
• Man, there are a LOT of shootout scenes at the end of season 5!!
• Miles tells Chang to get as far away from here as he can, which is what Chang told his wife to get her off the island.
• I guess we now know why Marvin Candle has a prosthetic arm!
• Juliet’s fall was heartbreaking, and something I didn’t see coming at ALL. And I think that’s the first time we’ve seen Sawyer sob. It was a lot like when Buffy jumped from the tower at the end of season 5. I didn’t start crying until I saw Spike fall apart. Similarly, it really hit me when Sawyer started crying.
• Ilana asks Richard what lies in shadow of the statue. He answers, “Ille qui nos omnes servabit,” which means “He who will protect (or save) us all.” Does this mean Ben just killed their saviour?
• This is the second season that ended with a big revelation of Locke lying dead in a box. I love that only one season ago we went, “OMG, Locke is dead!” and now a year later we’re going, “OMG, Locke is dead!!” Only on Lost.
• The pit of fire that Locke throws Jacob into was glowing at the beginning of the episode, as if this one fire has been going from the beginning.
• On Jacob’s tapestry, you can see people worshipping the sun, and presumably the Sun God, who is Ra. RA = Richard Alpert?
• At the end of the episode, it’s like Ben is returned to being a little boy again. Jacob’s simple reply, “What about you” is shocking in the moment. Just as Ben says, he’s always done what Jacob asked of him, and Jacob showed him no regard at all. If Jacob really IS the good guy, then Ben has just been tempted by Satan to kill God, in a sense.
Hurley’s numbers:
On Dan’s notes on how to remove the plutonium core, there appears to be a 23B marking on the side of the diagram. (Or 23-8.)
So Many Questions...
• Damon, will you marry me?
• Jacob clearly called The Black Rock to the island. So how did it end up in the middle? Did he will it there? Does he have that kind of power?
• What happened to the rest of the statue if it was intact in the late 19th century?
• Who is Jacob’s nemesis?
• What did Bram mean when he asked if Frank was a candidate?
• Not-Locke seems very interested when Ben tells him about Alex telling him to do whatever John Locke says. Is it possible that Jacob represents only certain things on the island, while Smokey and other evil apparitions belong to Angry Man in Black?
• Who broke the line of ash that surrounded Jacob’s cabin?
• What happened to Ilana? Why was she in a hospital completely covered in bandages? Did Jacob heal her with his touch? Does Ilana know who he is when he arrives? How? This would suggest this group is a third rogue unit, as we suspected a few weeks ago, and they’re with Jacob, not with Widmore or Ben.• Jacob appears to bring Locke back to life with his touch, and tells him, “I’m sorry this happened to you” in what sounds like a genuine sentiment. Is it possible he’s really the good guy?
• Do all of Juliet’s man troubles stem from the fact that her mother told her that even if you love someone you don’t necessarily belong together?
• Oh Radzinsky. How happy am I knowing that you will eventually end up with a bullet in your brain?
• One of Hurley’s personal belongings is a Fruit Roll-Up. He was eating a Fruit Roll-Up when Walt came to visit him in the institution.
• So... did Juliet just kill everyone? Restart the clock? I’m furious with the writers, and thrilled with them all at the same time. Oh you horrible, horrible people. How I love you.
Next week: Loneliness. Depression. A giant hole in my Wednesday night viewing schedule. Taking the week off to work on my season 5 book. I want to thank all of you for coming here week after week to read my musings and join in the discussion in the comments, offering such diverse and brilliant opinions. I’ve enjoyed every minute of it. I’m not sure what upsets me more: no more Lost episodes, or no more Thursday discussions with all of you.
I threw this out there earlier, and I’ll devote a single post to it in a few weeks, but we’ve been discussing on the blog a viewing party, watching seasons 1-5, 2 or 3 episodes a week starting in the summer right through to the beginning of season 6, and I hope all of you will be willing to join in. I’ll post notices in as many places as I can to see how many people we can recruit to come and discuss the earlier seasons in light of what we now know, and I think it’ll be a lot of fun!
And in the meantime, I hope you’ve enjoyed the blog posts enough to order my season 4 book, available here at Amazon, and my upcoming season 5 book, now taking preorders (and available in late October). And if you have a copy already, get another one for a friend! Haha! (OK, there's a method to my shamelessness: At the end of every season, bookstores have a nasty habit of starting to return my books because they figure no one is interested in Lost anymore... I’m hoping if there’s a sudden demand for buying them, they’ll keep them in the stores a little longer, rather than return them, only to reorder them and make my publisher have to pay the freight both ways, which is sadly the case. Also, the more backorders on the season 5 book, the more are printed. Please help a gal out!)
And please keep coming back throughout the coming months. We’ll have a LOT of Lost talk on here, and I can’t wait to keep chatting about Lost with y’all!
410 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 410 Newer› Newest»This is me between appointments checking in. Ugh on the Bad Twin reference. Really good catch, but I despised that book. Lost is so much better than badly written mass market pap like that. I hope there are no more references to it. I'll take Flannery O'Connor over that ANY day. ;)
OK, fine, you all caught me: the green eyeball was mine. They brought me down to film it and I just wasn't allowed to tell any of you about it, and...
Sigh. Ben's such a better liar than I am. Though I do have green eyes. Or so I'm saying.
I've seen so many of you talking about some eyeball and I had no idea what you meant. I watched it on HD last night, and so I'll go back and recheck it after I get home.
A few thoughts on stunning finale!
- great performances all round but Josh Holloway in the Sawyer/Jack face off and later with Juliet was heartbreaking.
- the sfx for The Incident were even better than The Hatch explosion in season 2
- I actually thought Rose's reaction to Sawyer & Co turning up was perfect. It was the old people next door telling you to keep the noise down cause they having a nap at 3 in the afternoon.
- Its been a favourite fan theory for a long time but Richard's comment that Jacob made him the way he is, makes me thing he came to The Island on the Black Rock and was given eternal life in return for eternal service to The Island.
- 'They're coming'. My bet is Jacob has been expecting trouble and has been recruiting Jack,Katie and Co. I can see them joining up with the Shadow Of The Statue people in season 6 to battle Evil Locke.
I feel I like I'm joining the party a little late (I'm in the UK) so apologies if any of this has already been mentioned.
New Question: who was the first person to tell Locke that he was supposed to lead the Others? I can't remember. Was that the first appearance of "Maybesau" and has been appearing in disguised forms since Season 4 (or even season 3)? A friend asked me this today and for the life of me I cannot remember when the notion of Locke as leader first reared its head.
Nikki - a closer examination of the schedule for Doc Arzt's watch-along has them starting on Season 5 about 3 weeks before it's released on DVD, and you know how hard it is to track down good online feeds of LOST in Canada (stupid abc.com and hulu) so a schedule with you would be much better for everyone! You know we're all on board!
P.S. - I've pre-ordered my Finding Lost: Season Five! Can't wait!
Nikki, I'm definitely in for the 2-3 episodes a week schedule. I have all the seasons including Season 5 (I record onto DVD). I usually watch the entire series in June and December each year, but I think your way will make the wait much easier to bear. I'm in. Just let us know when you start.
@dan: From glancing at Locke's history over lostpedia, it seems the only time he's told is when Ben tells him in season 4.
Lock always found himself special on the island and decided to join the Others when the left the barracks in season 3. Richard helped him in getting Cooper killed, but never told him he was their leader.
When they went to see 'Jacob', Locke heard him and because Ben knew he was special, he shot him. Walt told him he had work to do but not that he was the leader.
It's only after Ben saw Locke still alive and when they went to see Christian that Ben figured Locke was the supposed leader, to take his place. Ben's suggestion that he's been banished and Locke is taking over is the only time (I think) that someone tells him he's supposed to be their leader. Locke reaffirms it to Richard in 1954, and Richard then again acknowledges it to Locke in 2007.
If I'm missing something, please someone correct me.
On another note, the knife Ilana took from the cabin's wall had the same handle and blade as Jacob's knife from the cold open. So if it is Jacob's knife, it probably means that Jacob was, at some point, in that cabin.
But what exactly are we to take from it. He was living there and when he escaped he left a note? I dunno, just thinking.
-Working on a document proving the eye in the promo is Jack's eye from the pilot. Up in an hour or so!
I'm pretty sure the whole eye thing is just Jack's eye from the first episode but zoomed in. It looks as if someone is standing over him...possibly Ben. They probably just took the clip from "Pilot, Part 1" and edited and messed with it.
There was a teaser? I got quick cuts to commercials. The one when Sawyer was crying really ticked me off. I want my DVDs now, so I can get all sad in peace.
Wait...if they're Jacob and Esau, why all the Egyptian stuff?Jacob went to Egypt to live with his son Joseph and all the rest of his family (who eventually ended up slaves). He was taken back to Israel to be buried.
Thank you for thinking of me, Sonshinemusic. I was upset. I want Sayid to survive, but if he doesn't I still have a lot of Naveen Andrews movies here to watch. Won't be the same, but I'll make do.
Juliet dumping Sawyer really bothered me. It was like Angela and Hodgins on Bones. If people gave up every time one part of a couple looked at someone else, or was attracted to someone else, there would be no relationships.
Heck, I've seen the way Nikki looks at Desmond (okay, I've read it) and my husband's seen the way I look at Sayid... and James Marsters... and Shahrukh Khan. It's not about emotional goo, it's about commitment. Sawyer seemed pretty committed to me. I guess Juliet just figured she was doomed to repeat her mom's life.
I don't believe that people necessarily only love one person at a time, either. Again, it's about commitment.
That statue freaked me out. From the back it looks like a very studly guy and then you see the face... Eek! I wonder if that's significant - things not being what they seem. And something looking good from one angle, being not so much from another.
BTW, I don't go to any other Lost sites, so I'm looking forward to rewatching the series with everyone.
Oh my god - I think I know why they aren't able to give birth on the island: since the incident the statue of the fertility goddess is destroyed and they no longer have her blessing. That would make sense...
Greetings from Germany,
Ben
I side with many on this blog that the eye seen in the promo for season 6 (link provided by maryelere) belongs to Jack.
Some sources say that it is a woman's eye. I've actually wasted time writing another visual aid to show that the eye not only belongs to Jack, but could be a reuse of the opening scene in the Pilot episode.
The document can be found here:
http://www.sfu.ca/~bstooke/Eyeforaneye.pdfAlso, consider this. The writers have said that they attempted to write the show as a mirror image of itself. This could suggest that season 6, in fact, opens on Jack's eye, just as the Pilot episode presented.
You be the judges!
Holy comments, Batman!! Over 200 on a Thursday afternoon. Doesn't anybody work anymore? This is going to tale a while...
The Eyes have it
Surely it is Jack's eye. Maybe some are desperate to think that it is Juliet's eye to assuage themselves that she isn't dead and gone!
Anyway, have they ever SEEN this show?! Dead people are just as likely to appear as the living.
Definitely Jack's eye, no question. Nice work Benny!
Maybe Jack's eye will be the last image we see.
@maryelere: Not only are dead people likely to appear, but who's to say Juliet is dead? The general feeling I have is that the bomb did detonate (an explosion sound can be heard before the white screen). Now what does it mean? I suggest one of the possibilities is that the group actually reappears in the future with their memories intact but things having been changed.
Also I strongly believe that things may not have changed, but they still appear back in the future with Sayid and Juliet healed.
I'll post on my blog about that later tonight or tomorrow, as well as my 'in edition' first post!
Jacob touched "little Kate"'s nose. What about Jacob saying "They're coming"???????? Who?
217 comments?!? These prices are in-saaane!
@flexible I am actually now more interested in how Kate and Sawyer are connected to the mythos. It has always been my private little theory that Kate and Sawyer are meant to raise Aaron. Remmeber back in the day when Sawyer's voice soothed Aaron? Thus I was not surprised when Juliet died (that and the red shirt)By the way, have just skimm read the squillions of messages posted since I finally got to sleep last night - and this eye, when was it seen?
Great recap! To answer one of your questions (early on in your post) of "how did Sayid get on the plane?"....well, Illeana (acting as a "bounty hunter") brought him on the plane against his will. And now that we now that she was in cahoots with Jacob, we know that she was bringing him per his direction (I assume). Not sure when her flashback (when she was all beat up) took place, but I'm assuming that's what the "help" was that he was asking her for -- help in getting Sayid to the island.
I think this is the first time that we saw Vincent and nobody died immediately afterwards.
Target-Addict: Welcome to the blog! Actually, what I was asking was how did Sayid get onto 815 (the original plane back in season 1). Jacob touched each of the Oceanic 6 to get them onto the plane, but he didn't touch Sayid and Hurley until after they'd been rescued and were about to head back a second time. That was my question. Why are they different?
scrvet: I know! As soon as he came running out I said to my husband, "Ack! It's the dog of death!!"
Benny: "Not only are dead people likely to appear, but who's to say Juliet is dead?"
THANK YOU. One of the lead stories on Yahoo today was, "Lost kills off favorite character," and I clicked on it thinking, "Who??" It was taken from Watch with Kristin, where she was going on and on about how Juliet had been killed off. Um... did anyone else see her die? Because I didn't.
@scrvet I think this is the first time that we saw Vincent and nobody died immediately afterwards.Juliet?
Does anyone know how to start a new paragraph after the italics?
@Nikki
Good point - the fact that she's been wearing a red shirt for the last three hours is just way too obvious in my book. I was ocnvinced the writers were messing with us.
Despite my theory about Sawyer ending up with Kate - not that I care about this, but I do think Darlton do - I would love to be wrong.
And look what happened with Jin and the season 4 finale - so many people were convinced he was dead and you had faith!
AliBags and everyone else who has mentioned it: I have NO IDEA why the italics are not letting extra spaces happen, but it's REALLY annoying. So I've started putting quotation marks around the quotes from other people and then answering them underneath. Not nearly as pretty, but it'll do.
@AliBags: Does anyone know how to start a new paragraph after the italics?
I think I do two spaces and then return of line. Let's see if this comment works.
I'm not sure if two spaces only works to write a single space.
GOT IT to do a single space after an italic word, just type two spaces.
If you want to write below italics
type two spaces and a return of line
I was thinking that Juliet could have 'beamed away' with everyone else, but I wonder if they're keeping her fate quiet until it's sure whether or not V is picked up.
When do they start shooting the final Lost season?
Given the ambiguity of Juliet's status, this will surely come out of left field (my preferred domain). I noticed on second viewing of the episode that Juliet seems to 'wake up' at the bottom of the shaft just seconds after we see Jacob (presumably) die as he is kicked into the fire by Locke.
Pure coincidence? Highly likely but it struck me as interesting given that we have just witnessed Not-Locke presenting as Locke - and immediately thereafter see Locke's lifeless form on the sand outside the crate. Cut to an inert Juliet in the wreckage at the bottom of the shaft as she gasps into consciousness. Have we just seen another death-to-life transition on the Island?
OMG!!! I was just rewatching with my boys and when it got to the part where Juliet is "grabbed" by the chain and being pulled down...Last night I thought how it resembled when Smokie grabs and drags someone...well tonight I realized it was THE Smokie sounds when she was being dragged!!! The chain sound!
I think that not-Locke/Esau has to be evil. He/it is clearly inhabiting or taking on the image of dead people in order to speak to the living. And, as a Buffy fan, there is no way I can see that and think of anything except The First. I mean, hello! The good guys know dead is dead and don't try to fool anyone otherwise!
Just wanted to throw that in. WOW. What a great post and thread! :)
Also, I think the question, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is kind of like saying Shibboleth, for Ilana and the "jocobites" - it's how they know who is part of their group and who isn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth
another note from my rewatch with the boys...they kept telling me that the woman with the bandaged face that Jacob goes to see is Nadia and I kept telling them that it wasn't...and then even my husband started saying it...Any possibility of that? Hasn't Nadia been seen with some of the other Losties, such as Locke and Charlie? So maybe she would have had some connection to Jacob already?
@brodal: even though it's nice to think Nadia may have a bigger role in this, I'll give your boys and husband two reasons why it's Ilana.
1) Every flashback either flashes from or to the individual it regards. In this case it flashed from AND to Ilana.
2) If this narrative is not enough, Jacob says: "Will you help me Ilana?"
But I like their thinking, maybe they can get something out of the rewatch if they're in!
And by that I mean catch something we may (have) miss(ed).
---Outside, the Ajira group arrives, and Ilana asks for "Ricardus." Richard identifies himself and Ilana asks, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?"---
Actually, Ilana asked for Ricardo.
Am I the only one who thinks Richard was on the Black Rock? He states to "Locke" that Jacob made him the way he is (in regards to not aging). That would likey rule out him being an Egyptian God, and makes it pretty clear tat at some point Richard may have been a mere mortal.
@thomwade:
no, she asked for Ricardus. I had closed captioning on because I live in a noisy dorm building. He's a lot older than Black Rock crew, in my opinion...
@maryelere: Why does Not-Locke have to have Richard show him where Jacob is? Is Not-Locke trying to play Locke's role well by pretending he doesn't know where Jacob is?
You know, that has bothered me since last episode. If Locke really is so in touch with the Island then why did he need to be taken. Unless he, especially as Esau, just likes the fact that he is the boss and can tell people like Richard and Ben what to do...
@Nikki: OK, fine, you all caught me: the green eyeball was mine. They brought me down to film it and I just wasn't allowed to tell any of you about it, and...
Ahahahahahaha! That would be so fantastic!
@humanebean: Cut to an inert Juliet in the wreckage at the bottom of the shaft as she gasps into consciousness. Have we just seen another death-to-life transition on the Island?
Whoa. That would be insane.
One thing that has me wondering about "Maybesau" and Jacob is the color of their shirts. I mean, from the beginning, we've had Locke explaining Backgammon in terms of "light and dark" allegorizing good and evil, and again we have that dichotomy with Jacob and "Maybesau."
What I am curious about in this scene is the fact that, if I'm not incorrect, that Jacob traps, kills, and eats a red herring. If that's not a clue that something is both amiss and important, I don't know what is, but it's the color of their shirts that confuse the good/evil thing for me with that in mind.
I hope no-one minds my re-quoting more than usual in replying to day-old, 100-posts-ago comments. Lots of good stuff in there that deserves not to get, uh, lost! And I'm still way behind but stubborn about reading the accumulated wisdom and flotsam both, 'cause you never know what'll be which.
Two words for anybody who remembers Darrell Hammond's dead-on Al Gore from SNL during the 2000 Presidential debates here in the US: "Locke box."
Benny: Jacob was not only present the day Nadia died but was instrumental in either saving Sayid or making sure Nadia dies.
Yeah, I brought that up (great minds, dude) and I'm choosing to believe the former but most people I talk to seem to think it's the latter. Could be both... Nadia was standing there a while, though, relatively speaking, and to repeat myself it seems like the truck that hit her either meant to do so or couldn't stop due to Destiny tampering with the brakes.
Benny: Did I just miss it or was Juliet's 'flashback' the only one without Jacob in it? Does that mean something or did they just put it there because it shows her life experience?
I've never went back to check, but when I realized this post-viewing I figured that her flashback came in the second hour, so only the first of the two parts was Jacob; it's just weird that she only had the one flashback in "her" episode.
SonshineMusic: Esau ... I love the idea of calling him that. My sister called him Pete for no reason, but Esau works better
Thanks, SM, but I kinda like "Pete", actually! 8^)
SonshineMusic: Which one of them is good, Jacob or Esau?
I understand that we can't know for sure, and we can probably see their actions through both lenses -- especially if we extrapolate using our imaginations beyond what's actually there. And you & your sister's devil's-advocate (no pun intended) viewing of Jacob's actions as curses rather than blessings was the most thoughtful I'd seen to date:
[M]y sister noted that if you look at it right, Jacob is going around cursing all of the Losties. He's the one who aids and abets Kate in her life of crime ... [H]e's the one who gives Sawyer the pen to write the letter that will be a constant reminder of his bitterness ... He saves Locke's life, but if he knew about it, he could have stopped Locke altogether. His comments to Sun and Jin sound very nice, but they end up doing the exact opposite of what he said.
The concern for me if the producers switch things up on us to show that the perceived bad guy is good and vice versa is that, at a certain point, it's not a clever plot twist but just manipulation. I'd rather be invested in and rooting for the white hats -- or dealing with the nuances of entities that are hard to pin down on the morality scale -- than sacrifice that emotional investment for a frustrating wah-wah-wahhhh... That's interesting in a short story. With an epic like Lost I want to have some kind of grip on what the stakes are, so discovering that "reborn Locke" is Esau is nifty now, because we're just edging towards the extended climax that will be the final season, but learning too late in the game that they've presented things with a bias one way and then pulled a bait-&-switch will just kinda suck.
SonshineMusic: Juliet was also getting on my nerves again. In the sub, she's immediately, excessively worried about Jack, but God forbid that Sawyer even look at Kate and then she was all, "I know you would stay with me forever, Jim, so I'm dumping you because you looked at Kate, even though I'm admitting that you would have stuck with me and that's why I want Jack to change the future becaus I can't handle my own paradox."
I'm with you, girl, but my mom had a totally different tack. She's not the sexist type, trust me, yet more than once as I was unloading my frustration about what you say above she told me, and I paraphrase, "Juliet's a woman, and she's jealous. 'Nuff said." Which reminded me that as I watched Juliet bang away on the plutonium core in the surprise coda to her supposed death dive, part of me wondered if she was thinking, "Frak it! If I don't get to live, none of them get to be together without me in the mix. Reset time or kill 'em all, but, damn you, blow up already!"
@ Blam wah-wah-wahhhh...
Love it. Will have that sound going round my head all afternoon now.
And thanks to Benny for solving my html problem!
OK, I need some help.
A mystery that I must have missed the answer to.
Where do they get the torches from? I saw the not Locke guy fashioning one on an episode a couple back. He had something that looked like burlap. Where did that come from?
They have been running around and through the jungle for years now with these torches and I don't know how they get them.
It has been bothering me all 5 seasons and now mystery of mysteries I need to know. Anyone....
I just went over to the ack attack and there is the funniest Benry Knows Best of all time! Definitely check it out!
Anyways, she's got a post and I was reading through some of the comments and someone pointed this out and I found it very interesting...
They were talking about the dark/light, black/white thing between Jacob and Esau and someone pointed out that Christian was wearing Jack's white tennis shoes in the coffin and Locke was wearing Christian's black dress shoes in the coffin.
I don't know if it means anything, but it is a very interesting observation.
Random thought of the day: I was looking at the screen cap of the tapestry on Jacob's wall and was reminded of the Phoenix rising from the ashes/fire. Given the prominence of the fire circle in the room, is it possible that this points to Jacob's 'resurrection' after having been kicked into the fire by Not-Locke?
I don't know if somebody mentioned this, but I just read Nikki's post on Jacob and Easu, and that Easu was the one imprisoned in the cabin. I think he was released when Hurley, not noticing the ash circle, stepped on it and thus gave him a way out. That was in "The Beginning of the End."
I think I'm focusing on little things right now, because the over-arching questions are so deep they need a lot more contemplation.
Rose still rules. Totally.
I'm glad Frank is still alive. Having just seen Esaulocke and heard him described as being dead, seeing the body must have been a WTH moment. For what is Frank a candidate? I dunno. Jacob's Army?
So, when Locke and Ben visited the cabin, were they actually visiting Esau? Is he the one that asked for help? Or, did the ash circle actually keep Jacob safe from Smokey and/or Esau? If so, why did Jacob ask Locke for help? Was he a "bird in a gilded cage"? There was a parchment pinned to the wall with what looked like Jacob's knife. From the little glance I got of it, it looked like a map.
There's a parallel between that ash circle and the sonic fence. Did they both keep Smokey out while allowing those aligned with Jacob to pass freely. Richard implied that the fence wouldn't keep him out of Dharmaville.
So maybe the disturbance allowed Jacob to return to the foot and Esau (in all his manifestations) to move the cabin and then move in? Curiously, Ben and Locke needed Hurley to relocate the cabin, and yet Ilana went right to it.
The fact that we still haven't seen the outrigger chase tells me that some time flashing is still to take place. If I have the outrigger movements correct:
There were three outriggers on Hydra.
Sun and Frank took one to the main island (two left on Hydra).
John and Ben took one to the main island (two on the main island; one left on Hydra).
Frank brings one back to Hydra. (Two on Hydra - in different places; one on the main island)
Ilana and crew take one to the main island. (Two on main - in different places; one still on Hydra)
So we still don't know how the two outriggers (one containing an Ajira water bottle) get to the 815 beach. Did I hallucinate the number? Were there originally two and not three? Either way, they are all in different places as of this moment.
Darlton have said that they were very specific in their use of the compass. What's intriguing is that Esaulocke had to set off (or close, depending on the POV) the loop by sending Richard to the wounded Locke. No wonder he didn't want to meet himself.
I wonder if there are clues in Jacob's meetings with the Losties? Meeting Sawyer and Kate as children. Meeting Sun, Jin, Jack, and Locke as adults, but prior to 815. Meeting Sayid and Hurley as adults, but post 815. I think one could argue that these were pivotal times for most of them - that helped fix their paths and set them on the road to 815/316 - but not with Jin, Sun or Jack. At least not so far as I can see.
Noticed one more thing -
Why does Jacob need to eat?
He obviously wasn't always the God of the island, despite them both knowing what they're roles are.
Perhaps they are mere humans and pawns themselves.
I also enjoyed how the two spoke in plain english, but really -
What does God need with a starship?
MY TIMELINE/THEORY FOR JACOB AND HIS NEMESIS, RICHARD, and ILANA
Refer to the Biblical story of Jacob and his brother, Esau. They are two bad twins (like the book "Bad Twin" that Sawyer reads), one good, one bad. For some reason, Esau cannot personally kill Jacob, so he must find a "pawn" to use. In the beginning, they sit on the beach, and we're told that Jacob is constantly trying to prove Esau wrong. Esau says that they come, destroy, corrupt, always the same. The 815 survivors may be different, according to Jacob.
Jacob lives at the statue, whereas Esau is exiled to the cabin. The volcanic ash surrounding the cabin keeps him in.
Something happens between Jacob and Esau that causes Esau to not be able to resort to his normal form that we saw in the beginning of the finale. He is now the smoke monster, taking forms of dead people or people who are "special" (Walt). He has taken the forms of Christian Shephard, Eko's brother Yemi, everyone who visits Hurley at Santa Rosa, Kate's horse, and Walt's appearances to Shannon and Locke. I personally believe Claire is still alive, but is corrupted by Esau (he was Christian). Aaron's "specialness" is still to be revealed.
The Black Rock comes to the island in the beginning of the episode, which I believe sailed out of Spain. I think Richard was on this ship, since he is called "Ricardos" by Ilana. What lies in the shadow of the statue? Richard answers in latin: the one who will save us all. In return for immortality, Richard becomes Jacob's messenger. I believe Ilana and Co. work for Jacob, hence Esau-Locke telling Richard that they need to "take care" of the rest of the Ajira 316 passengers = he wants them dead; they work for his nemesis.
Finally, Esau finds Locke on the island (Locke says that he saw something "beautiful" when he first encounters the monster in the 4th episode). Locke is told that he must die (not in order to save everyone, but that Esau needs him dead so Esau can take the form of Locke and convince Ben to kill Jacob). When Esau-Locke and Ben travel to the Temple, only Ben enters. Esau-Locke transforms into Alex to tell Ben to obey Locke, and transforms back into Locke, tricking Ben into following him loyally.
Esau-Locke takes Ben to Jacob, and Jacob utters his last words "They're coming". He knows what is happening in 1977, and perhaps the detonation of Jughead's core will blast everyone to 2008 for a showdown with Esau and the destiny of peoples' free will. Is Jacob right? Will our heroes prove Esau wrong?
Notice how Jacob touches everyone he needs to form his "army". He touches everyone EXCEPT Juliet, hence her death. She was only needed to motivate Sawyer into "playing for the team". I think this doesn't bode well for Miles either, since he was not encountered by Jacob. Also, Greg Fleming proposed that Jacob perhaps works with Widmore. This is because the man who killed Nadia works for Widmore, and Jacob obviously stalled Sayid to make her death occur.
MY TIMELINE/THEORY FOR JACOB AND HIS NEMESIS, RICHARD, and ILANA
Refer to the Biblical story of Jacob and his brother, Esau. They are two bad twins (like the book "Bad Twin" that Sawyer reads), one good, one bad. For some reason, Esau cannot personally kill Jacob, so he must find a "pawn" to use. In the beginning, they sit on the beach, and we're told that Jacob is constantly trying to prove Esau wrong. Esau says that they come, destroy, corrupt, always the same. The 815 survivors may be different, according to Jacob.
Jacob lives at the statue, whereas Esau is exiled to the cabin. The volcanic ash surrounding the cabin keeps him in.
Something happens between Jacob and Esau that causes Esau to not be able to resort to his normal form that we saw in the beginning of the finale. He is now the smoke monster, taking forms of dead people or people who are "special" (Walt). He has taken the forms of Christian Shephard, Eko's brother Yemi, everyone who visits Hurley at Santa Rosa, Kate's horse, and Walt's appearances to Shannon and Locke. I personally believe Claire is still alive, but is corrupted by Esau (he was Christian). Aaron's "specialness" is still to be revealed.
The Black Rock comes to the island in the beginning of the episode, which I believe sailed out of Spain. I think Richard was on this ship, since he is called "Ricardos" by Ilana. What lies in the shadow of the statue? Richard answers in latin: the one who will save us all. In return for immortality, Richard becomes Jacob's messenger. I believe Ilana and Co. work for Jacob, hence Esau-Locke telling Richard that they need to "take care" of the rest of the Ajira 316 passengers = he wants them dead; they work for his nemesis.
Finally, Esau finds Locke on the island (Locke says that he saw something "beautiful" when he first encounters the monster in the 4th episode). Locke is told that he must die (not in order to save everyone, but that Esau needs him dead so Esau can take the form of Locke and convince Ben to kill Jacob). When Esau-Locke and Ben travel to the Temple, only Ben enters. Esau-Locke transforms into Alex to tell Ben to obey Locke, and transforms back into Locke, tricking Ben into following him loyally.
Esau-Locke takes Ben to Jacob, and Jacob utters his last words "They're coming". He knows what is happening in 1977, and perhaps the detonation of Jughead's core will blast everyone to 2008 for a showdown with Esau and the destiny of peoples' free will. Is Jacob right? Will our heroes prove Esau wrong?
Notice how Jacob touches everyone he needs to form his "army". He touches everyone EXCEPT Juliet, hence her death. She was only needed to motivate Sawyer into "playing for the team". I think this doesn't bode well for Miles either, since he was not encountered by Jacob. Also, Greg Fleming proposed that Jacob perhaps works with Widmore. This is because the man who killed Nadia works for Widmore, and Jacob obviously stalled Sayid to make her death occur.
The thing is, if Juliet successfully detonated Jughead and changed the future, Locke wouldn't be dead, Jacob wouldn't be dead, and everything would start afresh. I think Jacob knew this would happen, and that's the reason he didn't fight back.
Check out my site, www.sachinstyle.com, for LOST thoughts and videos.
Late to the party but hey - so much to digest!
A quick note on Jacob's tapestry. Correct me if I'm wrong, but In the final scene inside the plinth of the four-toed statue, the tapestry shows 8 people only, leaving out the 'left king' and two other (so, 11 in total in the upper level).
My idea is that the O6 are represented in this final tapestry, together with Ben... And possibly Jacob as the 'right king'.
So much for interpretation and overinterpretation! ;)
@Brandon: Good outline, I just have some comments.
- If "Esau" lives is confined to the cabin, how can he become Yemi, Walt and Christian? The smoke monster roams freely while the guy in the cabin is imprisoned there.
- I know it doesn't mean much, but the CC on Richard's name was actually "Ricardus", Latin and not Spanish.
- Jacob waited for Sayid and Nadia to cross before asking for help. At the speed the truck was going, this appeared to be an attempt to perhaps kill Sayid. From this point of view, Jacob saved Sayid's life. Just a thought, not speculating on who wanted him dead (hadn't started killing people then.)
@Benny:
First off, this is a side note: When Esau said "Help Me" to Locke, that's when he set his plan in motion. It convinced Ben that Locke could indeed see Jacob, and Esau told Locke to move the island so time travel would be possible, making his future corruption of Locke's form possible.
To your thought on the ash circle, perhaps the ash didn't keep Esau confined to the cabin only, but to the island. Once Locke and Ben visit and mess up the circle, Esau is free to travel off-island, hence his visits to Hurley in the forms of his dead friends.
When Esau exits the statue, he will be in the form of Jacob (since he is dead). He'll kill Ben or something like that, and he'll tell everyone that Ben and Locke were wrong. They'll believe him because they'll think he's Jacob. Since they know Locke never entered the statue, Esau-Jacob will have some convincing to do that Jacob killed Esau, and that the 815ers are a threat. Also, notice how Jacob touches everyone BUT Juliet. She's not necessary for his defense against Esau.
@Brandon: Yeah, I can see that. I'll try to work on something of my own. Not unsimilar to yours but with its own flair.
Hi! I'm new at this... I don't if anyone has posted this, since I did not read ALL the posts, but anyways...
I was watching a recap from an episode of season 2 where Sayid and Jack go under the hatch to explore it, and they notice the huge amount of cement there. Sayid then says that the only place he knows that is like that is Chernobyl - which had a nuclear leaking incident. So, maybe this means that the bomb did go off, but didn't change the future, and the hatch was built, and protected from the magnetism and the radioactive material.
Just a thought that had been bugging me ever since I rewatched that episode.
I know this is going to sound a little silly, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate that you didn't assume Juliet is dead. I've read post after post in the blogosphere in which the author assumed she was a goner, so it's incredibly refreshing that you didn't. So, thank you.
Smokey=Apep
Statue=his wife, Taweret
So if the official ABC recap is correct and the statue is Taweret, the protector of pregnant woman who keeps evil at bay, she is the demon-wife of Apep, the original god of evil who resided below the horizon.
"As the personification of all that was evil, Apep was seen as a giant snake, crocodile, or serpent .... Some elaborations even said that he stretched 16 yards in length and had a head made of flint."
OF FLINT, which is what? A BLACK ROCK commonly found on beaches.
Apep was an enemy of the sun god:
"It was thought that his terrifying roar would cause the underworld to rumble. ... Myths sometimes say that Apep was trapped there, because he had been the previous chief god and suffered a coup d'etat by Ra, or because he was evil and had been imprisoned."
And The pregnancy thing makes perfect sense. She protected women during pregnancy, kids were born on the island during the Dharma initiative.
But when flight 815 arrives, nobody can give birth. In fact, to keep their population going, the Others have to steal the children. Can you not posit then that the nuke (or incident) destroyed the statue in 1977 and, since then, women on the island have been unable to get pregnant or died during pregnancy?
Also, I don't think we saw Smokey once during Dharma times, did we? It would also make sense then that considering "Taweret was seen as one who protected against evil by restraining it," her destruction unleashed said monster.
From Wikipedia:
In most subsequent depictions, Taweret was depicted with features of a pregnant woman. In a composite addition to the animal-compound she was also seen with pendulous breasts, a full pregnant abdomen, and long, straight human hair on her head.
As a protector, she often was shown with one arm resting on the sa symbol, which symbolized protection, and on occasion she carried an ankh, the symbol of life, or a knife, which would be used to threaten evil spirits.
Ultimately, although only a household deity, since she was still considered the consort of Apep, Taweret was seen as one who protected against evil by restraining it.
Here's a wiki quote for Sobek:
" [...] it was Sobek who first came out of the waters of chaos to create the world."
"Sobek's ambiguous nature led some Egyptians to believe that he was a repairer of evil that had been done, rather than a force for good in itself, for example, going to Duat [read: underworld] to restore damage done to the dead as a result of their form of death. He was also said to call on suitable gods and goddesses required for protecting people in situation, effectively having a more distant role, nudging things along, rather than taking an active part."
Sobek also became known as the male figure of fertility (as Taweret).
Another crocodile god was Apep.
Stupid job, stupid life - getting in the way of important things....like Lost :)
@Benny: From this point of view, Jacob saved Sayid's life. Just a thought, not speculating on who wanted him dead (hadn't started killing people then.)
Well, this was between 815 and 316 so, although he hadn't started killing people for Ben, we know from flashbacks that there were people from his past that might have wanted him dead. Just taking perhaps too much notice of you parens. :)
Also, I posted this on the later post, but people are talking about it here, too. I think that at some point Jacob did live in the cabin. When that is, I'm not claiming to know, but Ilana says something to the effect of he (Jacob) hasn't been here for a long time. I took that to mean that Jacob did live there before
@Tom:
good point with the statue and pregnancy stuff. Really cool.
I just finished the finale again (fourth time - I swear I'm gonna take a break now) and noticed something interesting about Jacob.
We see him weaving and he mentions that it takes a very long time to make the threads. Is it possible that these threads are actual THREADS OF TIME??? Does Jacob MAKE time? It would explain how he summons people to the island, how he is ageless, how he is in everyone's backstory, and why he is so intrigued by weaving. Just some food for thought.
Thank you so much for the statue photo Nikki. I am touched that you do care about your readers, I have read your blog after every show it is what made me discover and buy your books which I reread frequently! It's nice to find someone who actually interacts with her fans and helps them out! My son and I screamed when we missed the statue but now thanks to you we have. I look forward to your rewatch blogs this summer and your book this fall
your devoted blog reader
Hey, sorry if this was already mentioned by someone else, buuuut you had mentioned the fact that every time Jacob visited the Oceanic 6, that he touched them. I was wondering why he gave each of them a gift, all except for Syiad and Sun and Jin. But, if you count saving Syiad from getting hit by the vehicle, and giving Sun and Jon wedding advice, then yeh, he gave them something too. I just was curious about your imput on this, thanks!
266 comments and I'm still only on the 1st page! This thought occurred to me and so I thought I'd jot it down:
It the guitar case Jacob gave Hurley for Charlie? To the best of my recollection, there were no other musicians on the island... Will Charlie need the guitar (somewhere?) in the re-set future, provided Jack's h-bomb theory worked? Hurley was so close to Charlie and had numerous visitations from his ghost, perhaps he would be the one to entrust that important belonging to.
Also regarding your post on Jacob and MaybEasu, rival brothers from the Bible. They were indeed twin brothers, though Esau had the birthright being born first. Others have noted the "Evil Twin" book/manuscript from earlier episodes, which I had forgotten. I'm not sure how far that can go, though. It is interesting that one of Jacob's sons was Benjamin. T
Juliet is not pregnant. Kate is not pregnant. Kate and Jack were not living together in the DI camp. Cassidy was not "Projecting".
EM was just putting her gun in place and holding up her droopy Jeans. Bernard asked Jules if she wouldn't stay for tea cos she looked upset(after THE LOOK) and I suspect we are going to get a story of Bernard knowing Jules was going to die. Kate is not pregnant cos as Damon and Carlton confirmed in the clip, all the circumstances of flight 815 were not recreated as they went back which is why they all did not end up together and some flashed to '77. I think the co-habitation theory has been proven to be a non-issue which had us debating and some PDF reports. LOST. It does crazy things to us all.
flexible: I appreciate how strongly you feel about the relationships on the show, but people on here are just having fun speculating. You do not know for sure if Juliet was pregnant or not, so you cannot say for sure that those who think she might be are wrong. Please just let people have fun on here and let them speculate. It's not doing crazy things to anyone; we're just enjoying ourselves. You come on here every week speaking more harshly and in a different tone than anyone else in the comments section, demanding that people listen to you and that you are right, but no one is necessarily right or wrong at this stage. We're all just speculating. And I also appreciate that Damon and Carlton said on the clip show that Sawyer and Kate were together and that was that, but despite it being the showrunners (and therefore the dudes who are, you know, running the show) I do not take that as canon. If you want to accept that they're together and Sonshine owes you a debt and all of us are wrong for thinking there's anything between Sawyer and Juliet, that's totally cool. But you should just accept that it's equally cool if we still want to speculate the way we want to, because there has been no definitive evidence on the show that that is the case. By that I mean Sawyer looking Kate in the eye and saying you are the one for me and you have always been the one for me and her saying yes, Sawyer, same here, and the only reason I kept Aaron was to remind me of you and I love you over everyone else. At that point, we will know definitively that the Skaters win. And frankly, there probably won't be many people on this particular site who owe a debt to anyone because most seem to be beyond caring about it and I, for one, have never said either group was wrong.
But until that moment happens on the show, I just want to let people ship however they want to without anyone saying they're wrong or right. Sound OK? I'm really not trying to pick on you, but your tone is vastly different than anyone else's on here, that's all. I really appreciate your comments and coming back here every week, especially since I understood from you in the beginning that you thought this was an inferior blog to be reading, so I'm glad we were able to convince you otherwise. :) But I just want everyone to have fun, that's all. No judgments, no admonishments, no debts anyone has to pay. I was THRILLED when Jin was alive, despite SO MANY people telling me I was holding onto a pipe dream. But I didn't dance on their faces and demand props. (Well... I did in my head...) ;)
Anyway, thank you for your passion and excitement, really. Now let's let everyone else have their own passion and excitement on whatever topic they want, however they want to see things. All opinions are welcome here.
@Nikki-I did not say they were wrong. The only thing I said was wrong was the "cohabitation" one which has been proven wrong and the "cassidy projecting" which has also been proven wrong. I simply stated my opinion on the pregnancy rumours and went on to say why I think IMO pregnancy is a non issue. I could be wrong :)BTW, I do not see what shipping has got to do with the pregnancy rumours.
Clearly, I keep coming back here because I enjoy reading your recaps and the opinions of some of the posters.... and because I found one particular recap way off mark does not mean this is an inferior blog and even if I thought it so, it would just be my opinion against several others who consider it the dogs bollocks :) Excuse my french.
The virtual bet was a joke and I understand Sonshine took it as such.
I have no issue whatsoever with people speculating. I do a bit of that myself.
I think its fair to say that if we are waiting for LOST to spoon feed us without any ambiguity we will be waiting till 2020. You are never going to get such clear dialogue like the one you described, on this show. If we ever did, then forums and blogs et al would not exist because there would be nothing to debate. However, when something is shown, and people speculate, and the guys that not only RUN the show but WRITE the show come out and say, THIS is what we were showing you, I can't see how it can't be canon. They showed it to us. It is canon. We are an intelligent audience us Lost fans. I think. So, they assume we should know even if they do leave things open for interpretation. Once in a while, they clarify. When they do clarify, it is canon. Why would I argue with the people that are writing the show I am speculating about? Waiting for them to spell it out to me.
Sawyer loves Kate, Kate loves Sawyer is not a conclusion reached by just that one look. It is a conclusion reached over the entire run of the series. Some agree. Some disagree. This is where shipping comes in. Then we speculate. If I speculate on something which is later confirmed, surely, I am going to be happy about it and say so. I don't win anything and no one loses anything from speculating wrongly either. So, it's fun as you say.
Some speculated Sobek on the statue, others Tawaret. Greggory Nations says its Tawaret. So, Tawaret it is! Are we going to keep speculating for speculating sake even when those that write the show give us answers?
I did not mean "crazy" in a bad way. I meant it in the, Lost ate my life. How do I live for 9 months sort of way. Clearly, Lost can't eat our lives and God willing we can live for 9 months without it.
I just think they mess with us so much on the show that things we would take at face value normally become subjects for a thesis..LOL..and I mean that in the best possible way. I have found myself reading books I would not normally read just to understand the show better.
I know some people say they do not care about the relationship stuff and that is understandable. I do. Lost for me is about the characters and their journey. ALL the characters. Not just the romantic stuff. I could not care less about statues and smokemonsters and walking deads and timetravel, only, how it affects the characters I am invested in.
I never worry when fans online complain about shippers or who they like or not because the viewing figures tell a different story and the real story. Kate is supposedly hated by most online fans. Meanwhile WHH, promoted as a Katecentric was the highest viewed Lost episode for the last few weeks until the finale. I think it may have even gotten more than the finale(but I am not sure on that) but it certainly got more than all the myth heavy episodes and Suliet, Dharmaville, Sawyer as Le Fleur, that is popular with some online fans, did not get that level of viewership. I say it all the time, those who watch Lost on TV, love the dreaded quadrangle and all the things the online fans hate and thats why ABC and the writers go on with it because they know where their bread is buttered. Ratings. Not a bunch of us online geeking out over the show :)
For the record, I am sick of the triangle too. I wish they would just stop with the ambiguity and sort these people out and then we can watch, for me, Sawyer and Kate who still have the best chemistry on the show as far as I am concerned along with the myth and whatever else. I think there is enough drama and angst in the Skate relationship without adding, is it Jack or is it Juliet to it. Though, Juliet I understood and saw it for what it was and that was perfectly explained by Juliet when she broke up with sawyer as well as the Bernard and Rose scene which btw, was not just a look. It was what was said that brought about the look, that is the issue. Juliet did not just go, lets blow it up because of a glance. Afterall, sawyer had looked at Kate on the raft and the sub, but when she mentioned the look, Sawyer didnt have to ask, which. He knew exactly what Look and he did not deny it. Loyal soldier as ever, he said "I am with you". The rest is canon.
I understand your point. Hopefully you have understood mine. No harm intended. No hard feelings, I hope.
BTW, sorry for the long post and "dogs bollocks" means the best thing. Just thought to clarify incase it was something you hadn't heard before. Don't want anyone thinking its another harsh term.
@flexible: Do you have the press releases (or any other official document) with regards as to what was proven right/wrong? And where did Greg Nations say who the statue was? Funny how I seem to have missed ALL those.
By the way, your d.b. comment may have a positive sense, but the phrase itself is still considered vulgar in any traditional English vernacular. I'm sure many here would appreciate lack of its use.
Benny, I refer you to the Lost-Journey through time clip show that aired before the finale, where the people that actually MATTER, those whose opinions actually COUNT, spoke to explain THEIR show to us. I also refer you to the ABC recap of the finale. Sorry you missed it all :) No thanks necessary.
BTW, funny but true story. Some Lost fans while watching the clip show were so frustrated that what was being said did not suit them that they exclaimed..."These guys. What show are they watching?" LOL. I thought that is just the best example of online lost fans. Asking the writers of the show, what show they ware watching. For some, the speculations have become the show. So used to debating about our theories that when we are given answers we get angry and insist on biting the hands that feed us.
I am sure you are not one of such fans, Benny. :)
@Nikki-If the use of the term "dogs bollocks" is offensive to you on YOUR site, I apologise.
@flexible: first off, no need for caps. I know who matters, that's why I never accept a fan opinion as truth unless it has proper backing, in words or in concrete evidence.
I hadn't watch the "Journey in Time" until this past hour since I was working, so I didn't get anything they had said in it until now. After the finale there is no doubt anyways that there are lingering feelings, the point is "where is it going to lead" next year? I'm not even speculating, I'll just wait. I know what I'd like to see but whatever will happen will be it.
But they don't say anything with regards to the house or the statue. You said Greg Nations talked about the statue? Do you have a link? I'd like to read what he said.
@Nikki: With the comments on your second post, we're past 300 total! Shall we try for 300 her alone... start a third page of comments?
As I said in my first post on this topic, I don't care what is said in clip shows, podcasts or interviews with the people who matter: write it into the script or it's not canon for me. The end. That's what most of us on here discuss. This site is for a discussion of the television show Lost, and not clip shows. If you want to talk about them, that's fine, but not to justify a belief one way or the other, just, "oh hey, this was interesting," but generally we just talk about the shows. Just the series, the episodes that I actually recap. Nothing more. I asked last year that we limit the discussions to just what is on the episodes, and I just said it again, so please let's just talk about those. I'm with Benny; I missed the other stuff, and I'm a loyal viewer of the show, so I just want to chat about it, and not the clips.
yorick: First, please tell me you've chosen your screen name after the protagonist in Y: The Last Man. ;) If so, you RULE.
Secondly, thanks for the kudos. I'm just so surprised that everyone says she's dead. Why? We all saw Desmond do the same thing in a finale a mere 3 years ago, and he's just fine and dandy right now. Well... minus that bullet and all. ;)
Tom: Awesome rundown on Apep and Tawaret. You just might convince me!! Despite the fact the statue looks like none of the Egyptian depictions of Tawaret. ;)
A quibble with Tom's excellent Egyptian diety post - there was a problem with babies before 815 crashed. Alex was stolen long before, and Juliet was brought to the island as a fertility specialist before.
I'm with Nikki on canon. If I don't see it on the show, I don't count it. Besides, showrunners and writers sometimes lie (I mean, misdirect).
I really like the analysis of the two deities. Is Vincent Anubis?
@Nikki
Alas, I wish I could say that. But the truth is I was in the midst of a class on Shakespeare in college when I chose my first ever login name for a chat room; I needed something short, and Yorick popped into my head. ;)
I completely agree with your point about the Desmond parallel, which is one of the reasons I find the assumption she died by so many reviewers so baffling. Not to mention the part where Jin survived an entire freighter blowing up under him last season.
And, perhaps most important of all, I realized later that they didn't use the "Life and Death" theme that almost always accompanies the death of a major character—we encountered it first when Boone died, quite memorably during Charlie's last moments, and I remember hearing hints of it when Charlotte died. I'd have to go back through all the character death scenes to determine if it's always used, although I suspect not. But to my mind, if Juliet really was about to die while making a noble sacrifice (either in letting go of Sawyer or by detonating the bomb) they'd have used "Life and Death" again. Heck, we didn't even get the musical theme from "Lafleur," recently revisited as she and Sawyer were about to get on the sub. The soundtrack that accompanied the struggle at the top of the hole and her attempts to hit the bomb was very powerful music, as always, but Giacchino is too smart a composer for me to believe anything other than that he made a conscious choice not to go to one of the show's signature musical themes in what would appear to be a perfect moment for it.
Wow. I don't like to brag, but I number and variety of straws I have grasped in the days since the finale aired is quite impressive indeed... ;)
@humanebean: haha, I didn't realize you were the one who gave me the inspiration for the whole Phoenix thing.
I posted it on the other comment page, but there are like two different conversations going on, so I'll post it here, too. If anyone else is interested in my take on the whole Jacob/phoenix idea I wrote up a post on it over at my blog (it was way too long to post here :)
http://sonshinemusic.blogspot.com/2009/05/jacob-esau-ashes-and-phoenix.html
and AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! batcabbage and Nikki! I finished Y:the Last Man today (finally, it took forever for vol. 8 to get to the store) and I cried at the end. Aagh. There were moments when I almost stopped reading, but the ending was definitely emotionally satisfying. :)
The only things "lying in the shadow of the statue" were Jacob's dead body or Locke's dead body.
@Benny-Its in the ABC recaps often written by Nations anfd other times supervised by him and they write their recaps with the original script. Besides, a mere check of the head dress of both statues, reveals that it is most likely Tawaret as TPTB have said.
The house is a non issue that is why I phrased it so. They did not need to clarify it. It was an example of fans speculating on things that needn't be speculated upon IMO. This does not stop otherts from speculating but does not stop me either from wondering why an issue is being made out of a non issue. If Jack and Kate were living together, it would have become apparent or made obvious before the finale where they even stretched the story just to keep the quad alive. So, I think Jack and Kate living together would have been something they would make apparent. As I said then, they were not, it was not shown they were. Any discrepancies in the houses was just a production error. That seems to ahve been the case. Clearly.
@NIkki-Did anyone scream, "oh, the statue is Tawaret, in the show?" No. The writers have however said it is. Neither did anyone scream "Oh, we flashed to 1977 and Sun did not come with us because we did not recreate same circumstances on the return flight" but the writers have said that is why. Like I said, Lost never spoon feeds and thats why I love it. Everything they have clarified on that clip show was shown on the screen but some chose to misread it and speculate wrongly. If you prefer to cast aside the writers of the show taking their time to explain their story to you because it does not suit your interpretations, that's on you. It's a free world :)
Everyone can watch the show anyhow they like. If you prefer for things to be spelt out in the script before you accept it, and that is how you enjoy the show, that's on you and I am not criticising that method.
@flexible: funny how you say that the WRITERS words are GOSPEL but you OMIT that they themselves claimed the ABC recaps to be NON-CANON. Once we have a clear frontal view or a word uttered on the show, then I'll believe what I see or hear.
As for the house, you claimed it to be resolved while it's clearly not. It's a non-issue for sure but it's still open for interpretation and will remain so forever, like other aspects of the show. I never claimed that they were cohabitating, my claim was twofold: 1)its Jack's house, or; 2) it's a production error.
You've clearly sided with production error and that's fine with me. It's your interpretation that it was meant to be Kate's house while it is that of others that it was meant to be Jack's. If all speculation is left to interpretation of events, then no one will ever be proven right or wrong until a WRITER comes out and says it. And that's unlikely to happen as the show has been written to leave a lot to fan interpretation.
Shippers will have completely different interpretations of the behaviors and therefore different takes of the overall show, let alone a single scene.
I was concerned about Juliet's demise, not because of the scene (I think they all just flash back to the future) but because of her participation in V. I just read the V is going to be a limited run series, and since Lost isn't a full season series either, I think she could probably do both.
I have my doubts, flexible, that the writers would carefully set something up as a mystery and then start explaining all the details on a clip show. I'm not trusting anything until I see it on Lost. After the series ends, if they want to explain something more fully then I'll listen.
@Benny-No problem at all. The writers said they have no control over the ABC promos. I don't recall them commenting on the recaps. The recaps are often done from the original script. Certainly more likely to be accurate than us. I go with Tawaret because she is the Goddess of Fertility and we know the issues with that on the island and as i said, when you see Sobeks headdress, you know the statue is not Sobek. Statue, house, please, speculate :)
@Redeem-There was no "mystery" as such that was revealed on the clip show. I am not sure any of their clip shows have ever revealed any mysteries. They are more for clarification and that is exactly what Lost-A journey through time, did. It clarified certain issues. They explained certain things. They know they do not use explicit dialogue and that they leave things for interpretation, so, sometimes they choose to clarify things. All I am saying is that, I, choose not to argue with their clarifications especially when it is not plucked from thin air because if there were 2-3 different theories out there, what they said was one of those theories. So, there you go.
Has anyone noticed how similar Boone and Lapidus look? They both have those piercing blue eyes, bushy eyebrows, and similar facial structures and profiles. Almost every time I saw Lapidus this season (probably because he was much more clean cut this season than in Season 4), I made a comment to my fiance about how there must be some connection between the two. Particularly when Lapidus and Sun were in Alex’s old room discussing whether to follow Locke.
We don't know anything about Boone's father and, unless I missed it somewhere, there's no reason to believe that Boone's father's last name was Carlyle. That may have been his mother's maiden name or an adoptive name. Maybe Boone's mother had a fling with Lapidus? Or maybe Boone and Lapidus are the same person, Lapidus could be the future Boone if the 815 crash never happened?
Lapidus is a pilot and Boone died due to injuries from a plane crashing on/with him. I also wonder if when Bram and Ilana refered to Lapidus as a "candidate" it had something to do with being a candidate for sacrifice. As we know, according to Locke, Boone was a “sacrifice that the island demanded.” And according to Lostpedia, Boone has reappeared more than any other deceased character, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he comes back again in Season 6.
Another person bearing a resemblance to Lapidus is Esau/the man in black. Particularly when they squint and look off into the distance. They both have piercing eyes, although not the same color. As noted in an earlier comment, they both use the phrase “my friend.” Not as strong an argument for a connection as there is between Boone and Lapidus, but still interesting.
@shoop: I am so loving this theory about Boone and Lapidus. That would be so amazing. I will definitely think about that one. I never made the connection because that was so long ago.
This is one of many reasons I'm so excited about the rewatch - to pick up on possible connections like this. hmmmmm......
Hey, I'm Sonshine's sister, and I don't know if this was commented on yet or not, but it was really bothering me about how Jacob says to Ben: "What about you?" I mean, that was harsh. But if Nikki is right (and others) if the cabin is MaybEsau's and not Jacob's then when Ben took Locke to the cabin and the invisible person said: "Help me." Then that person was probably MaybEsau and not Jacob, which would mean possibly two things:
1) Jacob had never met Ben and didn't know who he was, so therefore would be honestly confused and ask "What about you?"
2) MaybEsau was already trying to get John Locke to help him.
Maybe at that time he no longer had a body or something and needed John Locke's body in order to re-form so he could go kill Jacob. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it does in my head. (Which isn't saying much.)
Nikki I hope you read this! These are two interesting points I've thought of (well one was pointed out to me).
1) In The Little Prince Sawyer's group were shot at by people in outriggers (the Ajira bottles confirm this was post-316). The question is has this event occurred in the present yet? After they knock out Lapidus in Dead is Dead, they transport themselves off Hydra island using outriggers.
2) Assuming Esau/Smokie can only take on the bodies of dead people after its been near the corpse, that means when Locke saw Christian at the bottom of the well pre 19th century (the statue was visible to Sawyer and friends), it was possibly Esau who had time traveled with them? He could not have taken on Christians body already because Christian wasn't born yet, so he had to have gone back in time with them?
Maybe the Jacob followers don't go back in time, but Christian and 815ers did?
@Sonshine: Congratulations!!! Isn't it fantastic?! I'm with you, I cried at the end of Y, too. Seriously, one of the best endings to any story, ever. I'm one of those people that, if I like the book, go back and read it over and over. I think you'll find that Y is like that. There's so many things that you pick up with each subsequent read. AND there's direct correlations to Lost! I'm so happy that you've gotten into Y because of this blog. Congrats, my friend. :)
A theory out of left field -- one of my "now that would be something, not that I've even convinced myself" ones:
(1) Horace built the cabin that Jacob or Esau uses, his apparition told Locke. (2) We haven't seen Smokey in '70s Dharma time. (3) But the sonic fence exists, and it's not to keep Richard out, so in addition to fending off wild animals (or slaughtering them, really, if they haven't seen or intuited what it does) it's probably there to keep Smokey out.
Could Esau/Smokey be trapped in Horace's body somehow? Maybe he was put there by Jacob, and every once in a while Horace -- who could be a real person or just an invented shell with no memory of his real identity -- is overwhelmed by aspects of his/Smokey's true nature, leading to drunken episodes like the one we saw in "LaFleur". All of which would make the conversation between Richard and Horace that we only saw from a distance potentially more fraught with intrigue, especially if, say, Richard knew what Horace was and Horace didn't.
Hello all! Whew, long day, and this is the first time I've turned on my email. (In-laws were here... and I got a compliment on my cooking from my mother-in-law for the first time in 12 years, so... big day for me!) ;)
I'll be sort of out of order here on comments...
Sonshine: YAY!! I'm so glad you finished it and loved it. I won't give up any spoilers, but if you're reading the same edition I did, the "incident" on pages 152-153 had me crying like a lunatic. I can't even LOOK at those pages without welling up (I had to look up the page numbers to type this and made myself NOT LOOK). Amazing, amazing.
Benny: "With the comments on your second post, we're past 300 total! Shall we try for 300 her alone... start a third page of comments?"
Haha!! I'm so close now! Maybe I'll just write posts saying, 294! 295! 296!... No, that's cheating. So now I actually have to come up with something constructive to say! (And I think it logs 200 comments per page, so we'd need to get to 400 before that would happen...)
So I'll be doing, 301! 302! comments for a while. Ahem.
humanebean: LOL on Maggie and the Ferocious Beast. Damn. Now I have that theme music in my head. I had no idea that phrase was from a commercial! I only ever heard Beast say it. I keep intending to write a post just reviewing various kids' TV shows. I have TONS of opinions. I know more kids' TV shows than adults ones.
Wow. That's sad.
"Given the ambiguity of Juliet's status, this will surely come out of left field (my preferred domain). I noticed on second viewing of the episode that Juliet seems to 'wake up' at the bottom of the shaft just seconds after we see Jacob (presumably) die as he is kicked into the fire by Locke."
Wow, GREAT idea!! This is a really good theory! :)
It's like the idea of a soul jumping from body to body, just requiring a host to inhabit.
I think I said this in my other post (sheesh, now I can't remember what I've said in my outside voice and what I've kept in my head!) but I keep coming back to Richard asking for bodies. I wonder if he buries them so MaybEsau can't get to them.
Charlie wasn't buried. Will we see him again?
brodal: "OMG!!! I was just rewatching with my boys and when it got to the part where Juliet is "grabbed" by the chain and being pulled down...Last night I thought how it resembled when Smokie grabs and drags someone...well tonight I realized it was THE Smokie sounds when she was being dragged!!! The chain sound!"
I hadn't seen your comment!! Man, how did I miss another chunk of them... anyway, I've put this on my other post, that the same thing occurred to me! Great minds, I tells ya...
thomwade: "Actually, Ilana asked for Ricardo."
I thought this was interesting, actually. Richard responds to her in Latin, but she asks for Ricardo, which is not the Latin. Instead, that would be Ricardus, which is how Juliet refers to him (in Latin) when she's interrogating "Jones" and "Cunningham" after they've shot the flaming arrows.
Blam and Sonshine: "SonshineMusic: Esau ... I love the idea of calling him that. My sister called him Pete for no reason, but Esau works better
Thanks, SM, but I kinda like "Pete", actually! 8^)"
LOL!! I thought the same thing. "Pete" is hilarious.
Hisham: I don't know if somebody mentioned this, but I just read Nikki's post on Jacob and Easu, and that Easu was the one imprisoned in the cabin. I think he was released when Hurley, not noticing the ash circle, stepped on it and thus gave him a way out. That was in "The Beginning of the End."I really like this! Hurley completely trips over something, and he could have easily wiped out a section of the ash. That would explain why Esau is NOT sitting in the cabin in Cabin Fever, but instead it's Christian.
OR... is that MaybEsau? If he could inhabit Locke's body and look like him, couldn't he just look like Christian? So while Locke thought he was talking to someone's messenger, he was actually talking to the guy? I waaay back in my original post (geez, it seems like ages ago now, doesn't it??) that maybe MaybEsau is Smokey and Christian and Yemi, etc. but I never actually thought the thought all the way through. Now I will... ;)
latelylost: The fact that we still haven't seen the outrigger chase tells me that some time flashing is still to take place.Actually, I think what's going to happen is similar to what Not-Locke, Ben, and Richard all saw in the jungle. I bet the Ajira folk will be racing to get to some place, and they'll rush to the beach, see just one outrigger, realize someone's stolen it, rush out into the ocean, paddling furiously, and they'll catch up to Sawyer and Company all paddling casually and singing Moon River. They'll start shooting at them, and then all of a sudden they'll hear that crazy POP and the outrigger will disappear. So the time jumping for the island is over, but we'll still see after-effects (like Locke in the jungle) when the current time is invaded by the time-jumping that already happened.
@Nikki: but I keep coming back to Richard asking for bodies. I wonder if he buries them so MaybEsau can't get to them.
What a relief that Nikki and Paulo were buried. deeply.
I was out of commission most of the weekend, but I've just caught up on all 292 comments in this thread. Here are some more original thoughts, followed by replies, with apologies if anything's redundant thanks to the 63 comments on Nikki's Doc Arzt post. I bet this one does go to 300, Benny.
As I filled my mom in on some of the theories we've discussed the other day, she brought up a good point: Why does Jacob not (to our knowledge) take other forms like Esau does?
My own response is that, while I'm calling the other guy Esau, that doesn't make Jacob the actual Jacob of the Bible. I also likened them to Cain and Abel, as well as, most appropriately for this topic, God and the Devil. Satan, even from his earliest forms in the Hebrew Bible, where his name meant "adversary" and he was not the fallen angel who ruled Hell imagined later by Christian writers, was an antagonist if not already the deceiver. People expect the Devil to take many forms, from the snake in Eden to any number of sneaky depictions in popular fiction. On the other hand, God would occasionally render signs like the burning bush as stand-ins for his Presence but never took human form until, arguably, Jesus. Should Jacob be the white hat and Esau the black, it makes sense that Jacob might work in mysterious ways but not ever take another form surreptitiously.
I've also been musing since shortly after that white flash on a progression in scale or scope that we've seen from season to season.
Season One had our castaways mostly on the beach and then the caves, with some additional exploration of the Island, plus of course the flashbacks.
The Season One finale took us down the Hatch, a.k.a. Dharma's Swan Station, which was a major expansion of setting for Season Two, as was the addition of the Tailies and meeting actual Others. Season Two ended with the EM explosion and our first present-time glimpse of life off the Island when Penny was notified of the blip.
Season Three spent considerable time -- to many viewers' and even producers' chagrin -- with the Others on the next island over from The Island. Its finale's expansion of scope, like "down the Hatch" in One and "off the Island" in Two, was that what we thought was a flashback was in fact a flashforward.
Season Four introduced us to life off the Island after the Oceanic Six's return to the world, and began the mirroring of the seasons, with the finale both echoing the previous season's finale and finally showing us how the castaways whom we'd seen off the Island in flashforwards actually left. Plus we were introduced to the Frozen Donkey Wheel chamber.
After Season One's exploration of the Island, Season's Two's expansion into the Hatch and discovery of other Dharma Stations, Season Three's introduction of the companion Island, and Season Four's toggling between the Island and not only what had happened in our castaways' lives in the outer world but what would happen, Season Five went one better and introduced time travel. We'd previously only jumped through time narratively through flashbacks and flashforwards, but now our castaways weren't just wandering through the three dimensions of length, width, and height or depth (the former two on the Island's surface, the latter via the plane crash and Hatch), they were wandering through the fourth dimension, time.
Season Six is of course uncharted territory, as it hasn't even begun filming yet, but if the previous seasons are any indication, then elements of the Season Five finale may point the way. The introduction of corporeal Jacob was one big reveal, but it's the white flash in the very last moments that's placed where the look down to the Hatch, the Arctic outpost of Penny's, the "We've got to go back to the Island!" stunner, and Locke in the coffin were, but frustratingly it gave us the least information -- a cause with no inkling of the effect. The only place to go dimensionally after time travel is the multiverse of alternate realities, i.e., jumping not just through time periods but through different potential existences, which is something we've heard mentioned on Fringe. Does this mean that the flash, whether or not it was caused by the detonation of the plutonium core, has reset history in some way, and that we might see two or more different timelines play out at once, separated by the membrane of quantum whatever, the way we toggled between time periods this year?
Juliet being dragged: I'd like to think I have a good sound system, both TV and computer, but I definitely do not hear the Smoke monster's sound when Juliet is being dragged.
Someone (not sure if it's here) also said they hear the sound at the Orchid, but all I hear are generators, chain elevators and pulleys. Kinda similar to the sound when the machinery is on at the Swan.
Maybe it's just me, but even after rewatching and paying attention, I still don't hear it.
Haha, you hit 300, Blam. Did I make the top of the next page?
@Nikki: what Not-Locke, Ben, and Richard all saw in the jungle.
This is the one thing that really bothers me...how does Not-Locke know so freakin' much about the real Locke?! There's more than just body habitation going on here. Grrrrrr that we have to wait so long to find out more.
Nope, I guess you're right Nikki. We've got to get to 400. Yeah, I was an English major, not a math major. Should have figured that one out before.
@Blam: The only place to go dimensionally after time travel is the multiverse of alternate realities,
If they do this, I think my head just might actually explode... just a warning to the writers. :)
@Blam/Soneshine/Nikki: OK, when we get to multiverse, there's this possibility or repeated realities, which is a concept I'd like to think I've just coined.
I've said I'd post something on my Lost blog about this but tomorrow it will be posted, I promised. I started mulling this theory once I heard the producers discuss the compass in their last podcast. The key word: Moebius loop. Check it out and I'll let you know when my theory is up.
@Sonshine: sorry for calling you Soneshine, I think I've always done that but only realized now that there is no 'e'.
@Blam: You got 300, I got 301. Wanna fight for 400/401?
Robbie: Assuming Esau/Smokie can only take on the bodies of dead people after its been near the corpse, that means when Locke saw Christian at the bottom of the well pre 19th century (the statue was visible to Sawyer and friends), it was possibly Esau who had time traveled with them? He could not have taken on Christians body already because Christian wasn't born yet, so he had to have gone back in time with them? This is a great theory! I haven't really thought about Christian seeing Locke at the frozen donkey wheel, but you may be onto something!!
achinghope: Yay, Sonshine's sister!! She talks about you a lot, and I keep thinking, "Well, get that sister on here!!" It's great to have you here.
1) Jacob had never met Ben and didn't know who he was, so therefore would be honestly confused and ask "What about you?"
2) MaybEsau was already trying to get John Locke to help him.
Good point on #1. Imagine Jacob standing there listening to all of that and at the end going, "And... you are???" LOL! Poor Ben. I really felt terrible for the little weasel in this scene.
I agree with you on #2. I've said it a few times in this loooooong group of comments, but I think there's much to be said about Esau being the dude in the cabin, and not Jacob.
Nikki: I got a compliment on my cooking from my mother-in-law for the first time in 12 years
Yay!
Benny: The key word: Moebius loop. Check it out and I'll let you know when my theory is up.
I'm well acquainted with both Möbius loops or strips, and Moebius too -- read a lot of comics; even made one called "Möbius Trip" once. I'll check out your and Sonshine's blogs when I'm caught up with the newer thread, although if you, she, Nikki, and I are the only ones still posting in this section it might make sense to move all discussions to the newer thread. Whaddaya say, Nikki?
Yay! I think I've finally figured out this whole space after italics thing. What a technological whiz I am. :/
Benny: Juliet being dragged: I'd like to think I have a good sound system, both TV and computer, but I definitely do not hear the Smoke monster's sound when Juliet is being dragged.
I actually didn't hear anything, either. It was the visual of seeing her dragged by the chain that reminded me of the smoke monster, and then from there I made the connection that Smokey always sounds like the chain sound of a rollercoaster being pulled uphill.
@achinghope/Nikki: What caught my attention about Jacob and Ben is how Jacob called him Benjamin.
It could either be because he is not familiar with him and calls him by his full name. Or it's a gesture of respect and wanting his full attention on what he's saying. Remember that the gist of the statement was "Benjamin, whatever you do, you have a choice."
Just as I'm finally posting thoughts on older comments, you guys come in with new ones.
Nikki: I really like this! Hurley completely trips over something, and he could have easily wiped out a section of the ash. That would explain why Esau is NOT sitting in the cabin in Cabin Fever, but instead it's Christian.
I recall it being very clear that somebody tripped over and messed up the ash when the gang left Jacob's cabin. I didn't remember who, but they telegraphed it pretty obviously in my memory, and when we saw the line broken in this episode I thought the connection was intended to be apparent. Maybe Flexible can tell us. 8^)
As for the Christian in the cabin and the Frozen Donkey Wheel chamber being Esau/Smokey, that's what I've been saying since my first post Wednesday night.
Nikki: I think I've finally figured out this whole space after italics thing. What a technological whiz I am. :/
I'd been doing end-italics and then two breaks until Benny mentioned that two typed spaces did the trick; one typed space and typed carriage returns seems to work, too, although since I write all my comments in TextEdit first pasting in the HTML tags wasn't too bad.
@Blam: I think that if we keep chatting up, we may get to 400 tonight alone!
@Nikki: I agree that the look was definitely like Locke being dragged.
As for the sound, I just keep hearing a taxi register ever since that came up.
@Benny: sorry for calling you Soneshine, I think I've always done that but only realized now that there is no 'e'.
Hahahaha! I was just saying to my sister earlier today that you always misspell it, but I was trying to figure out if it was tacky to say something. Apology accepted, it didn't really bother me, I thought it was kind of funny :)
I hafta take a short break after this, but still gots me replies to post.
Benny: I'd like to think I have a good sound system, both TV and computer, but I definitely do not hear the Smoke monster's sound when Juliet is being dragged.
Nikki: I actually didn't hear anything, either. It was the visual of seeing her dragged by the chain that reminded me of the smoke monster, and then from there I made the connection that Smokey always sounds like the chain sound of a rollercoaster being pulled uphill.
That's exactly what I always associated it with, maybe from having grown up near the boardwalk amusements in New Jersey, but what's really weird is that just as I read Benny's comment and thought that again a commercial popped up on television featuring a rollercoaster. 8^O
@Nikki: I think I've finally figured out this whole space after italics thing. What a technological whiz I am. :/
If it makes you feel any better, I'm so new at this whole blogging thing that I can't even DO italics. :sigh: That's why I never use them and that's why I'm taking some computer courses.
@Blam/Benny: I totally claim 401 ;)
There's been a lot of discussion about the circle of ash, but when I tried to do some research on it, I couldn't find anything. Does anybody know where the idea of a circle of ash being for protection or containment comes from? I feel like I've heard it before in a book or something, but thought it was weird that I couldn't find anything about it.
@Blam/Benny: Moebius loop/strip
Also, the Mobius loop/strip features heavily in the Necroscope series of novels by Brian Lumley. Here's a little excerpt (a short disclaimer - this is how it appears in a novel. I have no idea if the origins are accurate):
"... Mobius strip. Named after its inventor, August Ferdinand Mobius, a German mathematician. Just take a thin strip of paper, give it a half-twist and join up at the ends. It reduces a two-dimensional surface to only one. It has many implications... space-time.... the strip is only a diagram of warped space, and space and time are inextricably linked." (Necroscope, by Brian Lumley, pp 411). Seems applicable, given the current circumstances of the show. Looking forward to reading your blog entry about it, Benny.
@Benny: What caught my attention about Jacob and Ben is how Jacob called him Benjamin.
I caught that too, Benny, and immediately thought of Charles Widmore.
PS. My word verification for this post is 'katers', which sounds to me like a ship for those who want Kate to end up with no one.
Nikki: Where did Richard take him? We now know there are two entities on the island: did he take him to Jacob or Esau?
Hey, I never thought of that.
Brandon: I love how it seems like the scales of confrontation on the show continue to escalate.
As does, I opined earlier, the scale of the "playing field".
The fact that Richard, and by extension the Natives and/or Others, are Jacob's people doesn't necessarily mean that Ben is on the right side and Widmore is not. Ilana tells Sayid that she doesn't know the name Benjamin Linus on the Ajira flight (which, granted, could be her maintaining cover). Clearly, Smokey is playing Ben now, and given that prior episodes established Ben having a way to summon Smokey — which may have been something that Richard knew nothing about — that may not just be a recent development.
>I don't think I mentioned, Nikki, that I'm not a Doc Arzt reader (other than your column, and very, very occasional poking around) and I've no interest in doing a watch-along over there. Glad to hear that you reconsidered your uncharacteristically defeatist decision...!
Sonshine Music: If it makes you feel any better, I'm so new at this whole blogging thing that I can't even DO italics. :sigh: That's why I never use them and that's why I'm taking some computer courses.
Far be it from me to talk you out of education, but it's pretty simple: You put... uh, I gotta do this without actually typing the HMTL, so I'm putting spaces between the pointy brackets where there shouldn't be any... < i > before the text you want italicized, and < / i > right after the italics should end. For boldfacing you do < b > and then < / b >, again without the spaces inside the brackets / sideways-carets x/ lesser-than/greater-than symbols.
@Blam: Far be it from me to talk you out of education, but it's pretty simpleThanks! I had it almost right, but not the/ and that's what messed everything up and made the computer yell at me
And I'd just like to say, that you know you're a real Lost geek when you scroll down on Nikki's blog and note offhand that her later post has 64 comments and that is 8x8 and you're excited that you found the numbers.
You're welcome, SM!
And I'd just like to say, that you know you're a real Lost geek when you scroll down on Nikki's blog and note offhand that her later post has 64 comments and that is 8x8 and you're excited that you found the numbers.
Does that mean any posts about Faith from BTVS should have 25 comments?
Hi All, Writing from the UK so only watched the finale a few hours ago, aftering trawling through all the comments my brain is mush (again). Never picked up on the Juliet being pregnant so good spot everyone . My one and only thought that I don;t think has been mentioned:
* When Jacobs says " there coming " could he be referring to Jack , Kate and Sawyer etc ? It has been pointed out that the white flash at the end could signify a time flash and also it has been suggested that possibly Jacob could have taken Juliets body to make this happen ?
Somebody make me happy and agree !
Blam: The only place to go dimensionally after time travel is the multiverse of alternate realities, i.e., jumping not just through time periods but through different potential existences, which is something we've heard mentioned on Fringe. That made me think of something. I’ve been watching the Lost reruns that ABC shows on late night Saturday nights and recently they showed the Season 2 episode where Sawyer, Jin, and Michael are trapped by the Tailies and Sawyer gets shot and ends up recuperating in the bunk beds in the hatch while Jack and Kate take turns caring for him. There is one scene with Jack where Sawyer seems to be channeling Kate’s father Wayne and tells Jack that Kate killed him. There’s no way that Sawyer himself would’ve known that, so I wonder if that’s what is happening, if Sawyer was not possessed by Wayne, but if Wayne was jumping into Sawyer’s existence. Or would it be the other way around?
Or was it because Sawyer was near death and Smokey took the opportunity to channel itself as Wayne (someone whose death had been caused by/who had been wronged by Kate) through Sawyer. Does Smokey only channel itself through people whose corpses are on the island or can it take on the physical or psychological form of anyone who had been wronged or whose death had been caused by someone on the island?
I'm going to go back to the chain pulling Juliet scene today and see where I thought I hear the sounds...and by the sounds I am referring to the mechanical part of the sound, not the howling...I know when I heard it the second time I was sure it was a familiar sound but maybe I was just hearing what I wanted to hear??? :)
@shoop: There is one scene with Jack where Sawyer seems to be channeling Kate’s father Wayne and tells Jack that Kate killed him.
Ooh I had forgotten about that scene. That certainly has the potential to add a whole new dimension to this whole body possession/use idea.
I'm wondering if it is at all connected to the time flashes and time travel as well. I think I've mentioned before about Daniel's experiments with sending out the consciousness. What if when that happens, you flash into someone else's consciousness? I know it didn't happen for Desmond, but he's special when it comes to time travel.
What about Theresa, Charlotte, Minkowski and even Daniel himself? What if they are flashing into other people's consciousnesses and that's why they sound so strange at times.
What if that is why Daniel knew so much - he had learned some of it by time traveling into other people's consciousnesses in the future.
I know that doesn't really answer the whole dead person speaking through someone else, but it made me think of all this, so there you are.
Sonshine, I tried writing an intelligent response, but it didn't work (I'm going to watch the finale again right now, maybe my mind will be clearer after that). But I did want to say one thing... Minkowski!!!I really hope they go back to his story, Fisher Stevens is an awesome actor and his role on the series was far too short.
but I keep coming back to Richard asking for bodies. I wonder if he buries them so MaybEsau can't get to them.
Could this be why it was so darn hard to kill Mikhail?
Oh! Oh! in response to myself (lame, I know)
Maybe, the specialness of Desmond is that he flashes into his own consciousness in other realities!
That's why things play out slightly differently in his flashes than they did the first time that he experienced them.
And that's why he has memories that suddenly "appear" in his consciousness.
Is that just too far out there?
@Shoop&Sonshine-It was not a scene with Jack and Sawyer. It was Kate and Sawyer. Kate thought Sawyer was waking up while chatting away to him while he was unconscious and he suddenly grabs her neck and says "Why did yopu kill me".
I think that is most likely Wayne inhabiting Sawyers body because later on it makes sense. Kate returns and starts talking to Sawyer like he is Wayne. Saying that she killed him(Wayne), not for her mother or because he was cruel, but because she could not stand the thought of him being any part of her and that she would never amount to anything good(which ofcourse is diferent from what she told her mom in WKD, and she sees Sawyer like Wayne so whenever she has feelings for him it sickens her. Ofcourse, Sawyer wakes up and drawls "Who the hell is Wayne?". Thats the episode with Kates horse as well. Which whatever it stands for, is the same as Sawyers boar and we can only take Lockes explanation on that to stand for both, till we get better explanations. Which is, something/someone from your past coming to tell you that whatever wrong you did them, it's okay.
So, I think it was from Kates perspective. IF Wayne was going to inhabit anyone on that Island,for Kate it would be Sawyer, cos she obviously at the time thought him that kind of drinking, smoking, callous individual. As we now know, Jack turned out off Island to be more like Wayne. Doesn't Lost teach us all kinds of lessons?! Never judge a book by its cover. You can't help who you love. What you see is not always what you get and so on and so forth.
Hi all,
Nikki, I've been reading your posts and the comments for about 2 seasons and I have your Lost books. Your blog and the comments have kept me from finishing book S4. I first heard you on John Moore’s show on CFRB some time ago. I think you're great. But you need a more thoughtful husband! Waking you up to go golfing! Sheesh.
I'm so glad you relented and fell to the peer pressure of doing your own Grand Review. I’ve so enjoyed reading everyone’s comments here, and there seems to be just enough people to keep it small yet interesting. I also read articles at DocArzt but there may be way too many people there for your little group to get a word in edgewise. I have only one friend who watches Lost, and, because we work nights, I PVR it and copy it to DVD for her, which she watches a week late. So I’m afraid to talk to her about the show for fear of spoiling something for her. And besides, she’s not as in to it as I am (how can she not be!). So this blog has been my lifeline! I love you guys.
Another thing about this blog is, as Susan said, there are no spoilers (although a moot point now at the end of the season). I’ve been afraid of other sites and feel safe here. And thanks to Batcabbage, I didn’t read the comments on Nikki’s DocArzt article after The Variable. At times, like Susan, I felt as though I did know too much from the theories here and a few other places. But like a car wreck or a basket of kittens, I couldn’t look away! And luckily nothing has been a real spoiler. Thanks you guys!
I have a few theories of my own and hope to start actually contributing! But I have only read 200 of 331 comments so far! For now, did anyone else notice that the shirt Locke had on in the coffin was dead white, and the shirt the resurrected Locke was wearing when Ajira 316 landed/crashed was off-white? I thought it was a production error or my aging eyes or my old TV at the time, but could it have been a clue that it wasn’t Locke?
Martha
I just realized Ben's mother was seen on the island, but she died OFF the island! I don't know for sure I'll check later but I remember Richard being VERY surprised to hear that Ben saw her when she died off the island....hmm.
Sonshine: It brings new meaning to "I'll see you in another life, brother."
Flexible: I think Kate found her Wayne in Roger, although she may not have known it. Was there anyone aside from Said who saw Roger abuse Ben?
@shoop: It brings new meaning to "I'll see you in another life, brother."
LOL! love it!
@peacockblue: the shirt Locke had on in the coffin was dead white, and the shirt the resurrected Locke was wearing when Ajira 316 landed/crashed was off-white?I hadn't thought about it, but now that you bring it up, I think you're right. His shirt was white in the coffin from what I remember and it was definitely not when he first was on the beach. this I remember because the Ack Attack commented on how so many of them were wearing lavender, and that included Locke.
I don't know if it has any relevance, but it is an interesting observation nonetheless.
Wow, I go offline for a weekend and it's all I can do this morning to catch up. Look at everyone go!
I'm really interested in unpacking the whole "Locke has to bring everyone back" notion in light of the revelation that Not-Locke is, well, not Locke, particularly since the whole "the Oceanic Six need to go back" plot was never really resolved to my liking, making me think there's still more to come.
This certainly incorporates much of what's been said here already.
Here's what we know (inasmuch as we "know" anything on Lost:
Locke was told he had to:
A. Leave the island.
B. Bring everyone back
C. Die
He was told all this by Not-Locke/MaybEsau via Richard, and it was confirmed, in a way, by Christian.
Presumably, he was told (A) and (C) as part of MaybEsau's plan to take his form and exploit Ben into killing Jacob, the end game of a long con he's been running for quite some time.
We can also presume Locke was told (B) only because it motivated him to leave, especially since the time flashes stopped when he turned the wheel, not when the Oceanic Six returned. Suggesting the former had nothing to do with the later.
So Locke left the island thinking the only way to save Sawyer, Juliet, etc. from the ravages of the time jumps was to get the Oceanic Six back, and that he would need to die in order for that to happen. Meanwhile, NotLocke just wanted Locke to die (and, maybe, come back...it's unclear if he needed Locke's body back on the island or not).
Off the island, though, Ms. Hawking and Ben both stated:
1. The Oceanic Six had to go back.
2. Locke's body had to go with them.
(Ben is, of course, the wild card in all this. Really, he only learned of Hawking shortly before killing Locke, and went along with her beliefs about the Oceanic Six simply, it seems, as a means to get back to the island).
(1) suggests that Hawking, either knowingly or unknowingly, is working contrary to (or at least, doing something superfluous to) MaybEsau's long con by bringing the Six back to the island (since he couldn't care less and just said that to get Locke to leave).
If Locke's body being on the island is a requirement for MaybEsau's con, then (2) suggests, that Hawking IS in on the plan, or at least, unwittingly aiding it.
Unless, of course, having Locke's body there is essential to MaybEsau's plan but also a weakness in the plan that Hawking is exploiting (after all, once Not Locke emerges from the statue, his ruse will be known to the Others thanks to Ilana).
In the same way, perhaps Hawking is taking advantage of MaybEsau's fabricated motivation to get Locke to leave the island in order to bring back the Oceanix Six to serve as Jacob's soldiers/proxys/whatever in his struggle against MaybEsau for control of the island (or something much bigger).
Which brings us back to "they're coming" and Jacob's interactions with the Oceanic survivors.
So, a Theory: Hawking (a former leader of Jacob's tribe of Others) is still working for Jacob, and somehow learned of and decided to take advantage of MaybEsau's long con of Locke to return to the island the people Jacob believed needed to be there for the final struggle.
That's why the Oceanic Six needed to go back, why they were never supposed to leave: they are important fighters in the war that's coming, and Hawking believes, should they fail and MaybEsau win, then "God help us all."
Again, nothing groundbreaking there, but I wanted to try to wrap my head around it and lay it all out, which'll make it a lot easier to add to/take away from the theory.
@Teebore: Interesting thoughts. Here's another possibility based on what we know.
Hawking says that ALL OF THEM have to go back and that Locke's body must also be part of it. She also suggest that the circumstances of the original flight MUST be recreated (and Jacob gives the guitar to Hurley).
Could it be that, by having everything as it should be, this could actually resurrect Locke, or at least let him be in peace. That the original flight was not recreated (as far as we know), could have caused Maybesau to actualy impersonate Locke, something that would not have been possible otherwise?
Thoughts?
That is good idea...maybe the Oceanic survivors (and in the case of flight 316, the Oceanic 6) were meant to be, I dunno, guardians of Locke's soul, or something.
That was the power Jacob imbued them with by touching them, and that was why they needed to recreate 815 flight so exactly: to blocking MaybEsau's access to Locke.
But they failed to recreate the flight exactly enough (perhaps because Ben was on the flight, serving as a Jacob spoiler yet again).
I would love to do a rewatch!!!
I went back to read some of the comments (there are freaking way too many people :) And I have a few comments:
1) About the forest fire: Isn't Jacob's shack magical or something? Isn't the Island magical in some degree? I can't imagine the island/house letting the forest catch on fire.
2) "Anyone else notice that Locke has never been able to kill anyone in cold blood?... Actually, no, he threw a knife into Naomi's back... Maybe it's because he was so convinced she was the bad guy?
I know this is highly unlikely and probably ridiculous, but what if Locke really did die in that pit oh so long ago. What if MaybEsau inhabited him then - killed Naomi - Got Locke/Himself off of the island and then had to have Ben kill him so that he could be made alive again when he returned to the island? But of course, that wouldn't explain Locke's dead body on the beach. Just a random idea.
@achinghope: I like how you think!
Maybe Jacob's cabin is only special at night? But I would assume that the island/cabin wouldn't let the island burn for sure. Ilana seems unphased by such a possibility when Frank brings it up.
NOTE: almost done my Moebius post, will say when it's up!
As promised, my post on the Moebius theory is up:
http://theoreticalisland.blogspot.com
OMG 342 comments...I'm gonna cry. How can I possibly get through them? I got through the first 100 or so last week. I just don't have time but I want to soak in everyone's feedback! Ack!!
Also, my first 4 episodes got erased on my DVR! Recording in HD takes up a LOT of space and I was able to fit them all, along with a couple of random things my b/f was saving. He recorded something long the other night (something he thought I'd want to see but in fact have already seen so I couldn't be TOO mad) and it wiped out the first four. I start with the Life/Death of JB. Hopefully by the time we get to S5 on the re-watch the DVD's will be out.
When are we starting the party? I will be off work for the summer in a month so I will have time to fully participate! :)
Oh BENNY...you crack me UP! OMG what an evaluation and dissertation on Jack's eye! LOL! But, I wholeheartedly agree it's his. I agreed on page one. :)
@Jazzgirl: Well that's what I figured. Half of those reading it would probably laugh it off badly and find it amusing that I did it. Most of the rest would find it convincing and a conclusive tease to season 6. And the minority would just not be convinced and chalk the pointed evidence to coincidence or something else.
I honestly don't know if they intended to have any specific eye or just an eye as we've seen them. But it certainly is a tease. The major eye opening sequences we've seen were: 1) opening shot of the show and 2) opening shot of 316. Both are when they just arrive on the island.
There are others, but I don't think they are significant in the grand scheme of Lost!
I know this was said like forever ago:
@Sparty_Cyclone: About Jacob being Juliet's father.
My first thought was, the question is: is Juliet Jacob's mother? but then I confused myself. Maybe Juliet and Jacob had a baby named Ben :P Yes, yes, I know. I need to get some sleep.
@Nikki: I got so excited when you used the word Dharminians. Yay!
@Latelylost: I was reading your post and was trying to figure out how on earth I missed the character named Esaulocke and then I figured it out and felt stupid. Yeah.
Another random thought: Ilana calls Richard by some other name. Is she undead like him too? (I hope not. I hate Ilana so so so so much.) Is Bram too? (He reminds me of muffins.) Are all of their troop little eternity non-aging creeps?
@Everybody: I just want to thank y'all for being such a pleasant group of people. I've only been commenting one stinkin' day and I already feel part of the family. Thanks :)
@Benny: Wow. I just finished your 'Moebius' post. That is such a full on analysis, man! And an excellent theory, I think, not only for the compass, as you say in the post, but for the overall time travel component for the show.
I was just typing a question relating to Richard remembering Sun's friends dying. Then I re-read your post, and see that you resolved that (as far as you could, regarding the convergence, and Richard gaining the memories from timeline B). Then I thought about the photo of Jack, Kate and Hurley at their 'Welcome to Dharma' bbq that Christian shows to Sun. That should be from '77 timeline B, yet it physically manifests in '07 timeline A. Richard gaining timeline B memories from the convergence I can see (despite his not having time travelled, there's so much we don't know about him), but the photo sort of stands out to me. Do you think that it was also a result of the convergence, a physical manifestation of timeline B bleeding into timeline A?
Sorry for the long and complicated question, but your post was very intriguing. I urge anyone reading here who hasn't yet read Benny's blog to do so right now. Thanks, Benny!
@Batcabbage: My claim was that Sun is actually in the tail end of timeline B. Even though she has all memories of timeline A (her youth and the island stuff), the plane passed through the anomaly from 2007-A to 2007-B. So seeing the picture of DHARMA is actually consistent with the time she's in but inconsistent with the history she would remember (had she known about DHARMA prior to that).
But I like that elements of the timelines could leak into each other regardless of what/where they are. I slightly alluded to that when I claimed all 1977 and 2007 points (4 total) were in synch. This also works for the convergence band (as opposed to line) where elements from either 1974-1977 period can leak into each other as well as into either 2004-2007 periods, and vice versa. So there are 6 leak possibilities:
Same period, cross timeline 1- 70s A <--> 70s B
2- 00s A <--> 00s B
Same timeline, cross period 3- 70s A <--> 00s A
4- 70s B <--> 00s B
Cross period, cross timeline
5- 70s A <--> 00s B
6- 70s B <--> 00s A
Consider a square where the left corners are the 1970s, the right corners the 2000s, the top timeline A and the bottom timeline B. Now connect all the dots with each other (box with an X) and you have you leak paths.
But since this relates to my post, I feel we should be commenting on there rather than here. For anyone interested:
http://theoreticalisland.blogspot.com/
@Benny: Ah, cool. Thanks for that. Shall follow up over there. Everyone else: go read it! It's great!
Who else saw the CSI season finale? I only got to it last night, and... Libby! Jacob!
I don't remember who first posted that the whispers could be echoes (or actually, bleed-through) from other times, HB, back when the time-skipping started happening, but it was a good notion -- and yeah, parallel realities would explain them too.
The whole membranes-between-dimensions being thin and accessible on certain parts of the Island is good thinking, SM. I like where you took my hypothesis.
How cool would it be to glimpse alternate histories of our gang, especially to see whether Oceanic 815 not crashing would be A Good Thing! What was it Desmond liked to say? "See you in another life..."
Could we get Chaaalie back if the standard timeline was reset by the explosion? Prob'ly wishful thinking... We've known since before this season began that while Claire would be sitting out Emilie de Ravin would be back as a regular next year, and yet "Darlton" said nothing about Dominic Monaghan -- though since his character's confirmed dead, it could just be a surprise until call sheets and IMDB blow it. I expect we'll get a couple of guest appearances from him at least, if only as a vision of Hurley's or in a flashback, what with it being the final season.
As I've said before, other than Rose and Bernard, the only 'ship I cared about was Charlie and Claire, and it'd be nice to see them reunited somehow, if not in the next life, as a happy couple at the end, appearing to Hurley and smiling like the ghostly trio at the end of Return of the Jedi (how appropriate), then possibly in an alternate life, even one only briefly glimpsed. I realize that the shortened season doesn't give us lots of playing room, as Sonshine noted, but I'm not counting out a trip through possible alternate timelines.
I didn't think about the young John Locke's drawing of Smokey until you brought it up, Hisham, which is why I'm so happy to be a part of this group. And despite concerns over the time commitment, I'm really looking forward to rewatching the whole series, but some family visits and a possible getaway this summer may mean ditching a week of discussion here or there.
Damon and Carlton confirming that the imperfect arrangement of the Ajira flight vis-a-vis recreating Oceanic 815 (or missing people, like Aaron and Desmond) was almost as frustrating, and more confusing, than the confirmation of Kate raising Aaron as a substitute for having Sawyer. That's something that belongs in the show, and would seem to cut off much speculation about Jacob's or the Island's involvement in deliberately sending Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley 30 years back because they needed to be there for some reason. Why would they be the only ones bumped back to 1977, then?
Swan: At the beginning of "The Incident" part one, where we first see Jacob and MaybeEsau, they say: “It always ends the same.” Jacob says, “But it only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”...WTF! What does this mean?? I want more!
Esau is tired of Jacob bringing mortals to the Island only to have it end in "... destruction and corruption." What Jacob is saying is that each round of trial or observation or what-have-you has led to that same conclusion thus far but they're battles, not the whole war. To me Jacob is doing this less for his amusement than in an attempt to prove something -- humanity's ability to achieve the stuff of nobler aspirations -- to Esau, to himself, or to a higher power. That's why the whole thing reminds me of the "Old Testament" God knee-jerk wiping out the human race from disappointment over its wicked ways; the destruction of Sodom was at least an improvement over the Flood, which wiped out everything save what was on Noah's ark. Since Jacob's efforts so far have been episodic, he's telling Esau that the experiment isn't over 'til it's over, to quote Yogi Berra; until whatever deadline there might be from that higher power, or in Esau's promise to find the loophole that will allow him to kill Jacob, the next group of humanity brought to the Island will have its own chance to deal with the Island's gifts, its hazards if not curses, and one another.
I just realize that I left these comments in the wrong section -- they're in response to comments on Nikki's newer post. Sorry!
Shoop: There is one scene ... where Sawyer seems to be channeling Kate’s father Wayne
I had totally forgotten about that. Dunno how it could be Esau or Smokey (or Esau/Smokey)... Kate's black stallion and Ben's mother may not be either -- they could be apparitions brought on by Jacob or the Island, or even evoked by the person in question themselves, to help give them piece of mind, but they're still manifestations, not whatever speaking-through-hosts happened with Sawyer. Unless that Locke body dumped on the beach by Ilana isn't Locke's body, we only know Esau to shapeshift into or create a duplicate body of the dead, and Smokey to do the same as it did with Alex underground when Ben was judged.
Sonshine: Maybe, the specialness of Desmond is that he flashes into his own consciousness in other realities! ... Is that just too far out there?
On this show, among us folks? No such thing!
Shoop: Sonshine: It brings new meaning to "I'll see you in another life, brother."
That's just what I said in reply to Sonshine's musings in the other thread, before reading these comments, although I posted my replies here first by accident. We really need for Nikki, if she's comfortable doing so, to disallow further comments here and open up a free-for-all comments section on a new post.
Teebore: Hawking (a former leader of Jacob's tribe of Others) is still working for Jacob, and somehow learned of and decided to take advantage of MaybEsau's long con of Locke to return to the island the people Jacob believed needed to be there for the final struggle.
As my mother says, "Yes but." I think it's a fine theory, well supported, and you acknowledge that Hawking's actions could be superfluous or coincidental to Esau's or Jacob's. What you didn't mention is that, per her explanation of recreating the first crash's arrangment of things, someone needed to sub for Christian as dead-body-in-a-coffin, and Jack at least was already prepared to accompany Locke's body, so that problem was solved. Habeus corpus, as it were, leaving her with one big piece of the puzzle presented like a wrapped gift. Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree, and it's great to have that all laid out; anytime we can recap a group of events in making an argument or supposition it's probably a good thing.
achinghope: I know this is highly unlikely and probably ridiculous, but what if Locke really did die in that pit oh so long ago. What if MaybEsau inhabited him then - killed Naomi - Got Locke/Himself off of the island and then had to have Ben kill him so that he could be made alive again when he returned to the island? But of course, that wouldn't explain Locke's dead body on the beach. Just a random idea.
Duuuuuuuuuuude!
Benny - excellent blog about the Moebius thingy !.....its clear now that the '2007' Sun and Ben are in is not the same 2007 they were in when the 316 flight took off. They have crashed in the alternate 2007 created by the alternate 1977 Jack and Sawyer have created.
Right ?!
@M9 EGO: That's my claim! and thanks!
An excellent blog, indeed, M9... Highly recommended! Except while the 2007 of Sun, et al. being the future of a divergent timeline created by Sawyer, et al.'s arrival in 1974 Dharmaville is a brilliant idea, there's a monkey wrench thrown in there courtesy of the meeting between time-tossed Locke and Richard before Locke turned the wheel. More at Benny's blog, or to be reposted here if he requests...
Hello everyone!
Is anyone still reading? Or are my words echoing and bouncing off walls with no one listening?
Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone doing their own extensive blogs and linking to them here. I plan on doing a separate entry today linking to all the blogs mentioned on here with everyone's personal analysis, because I'm sure a LOT of people stopped reading long ago... which is too bad, because things have gotten really good! :)
Is anyone still reading? Or are my words echoing and bouncing off walls with no one listening?
Oh, we're still reading, all right. It'd be nice to have one new post and attendant comments section, though.
We're ALWAYS still reading ;)
2 Random thoughts for the day before I have to run.
1. Lapidus as a candidate: What if he is a candidate to be a new body for Jacob once Jacob dies.
2. Someone commented on Sun and Jin being in different clothes in this flashback to their wedding than in the previous flashback to their weddin. What if this flashback was to time line B (see Benny's Moebius loop article) and this time, with Jacob's blessing, they actually remember to keep their love strong?
@Sonshine: Not only would Jacob be visiting Jin and Sun in timeline B, but I would say the same for Kate and Sawyer as well. With this being Lost we can never take for granted that we know where or when we are. If last season ended with a flashforward, I don't see why this season couldn't end with a new reality.
Ah! The possibilities!
achinghope: I know this is highly unlikely and probably ridiculous, but what if Locke really did die in that pit oh so long ago. What if MaybEsau inhabited him then - killed Naomi - Got Locke/Himself off of the island and then had to have Ben kill him so that he could be made alive again when he returned to the island? But of course, that wouldn't explain Locke's dead body on the beach. Just a random idea.I think it was really Locke off the island, he seemed far more human than he did when he was possessed. He seemed honest, mournful, regretful, shameful, and appeared to actually have a conscious. He lacked all of those qualities and attributes once he was back on the island, once he knew his “purpose.”
I hate Ilana so so so so muchI can't, because she's the awesome Yves Adele Harlow.
Don't Asian couples often change from traditional wedding garb to western clothing for their reception?
I'm still holding with 'everything happened like it always happened', mostly because I want to see the look on Jack's face when he realizes he's still on the Island.
@redeemL OH! but he can still change things while being on the island. It's just that it will have a different feel to it! I have two theories that account for this.
1) A loop theory (which still has kinks to work out!)
http://theoreticalisland.blogspot.com
2) Event probability, where things change in a way that allows them to be changed.
http://www.sfu.ca/~bstooke/Event%20Probability%20in%20Lost.pdf
Now, wouldn't you rather see the look on Jack's face once he realizes he's changed things but is STILL stuck on the island?
(yes, I like to promote my work!)
Are we still commenting here? Because I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaally wanted to get to 400!
But if everyone else moves I will too (Yes, I succumb to peer pressure)
@AchingHope: It is weird talking to you online instead of walking down the hallway, but... I hadn't considered that some of the other "flashbacks" might be to other realities, too! Werd.
@Benny: Yes, I would totally love to see the look on Jack's face if he changes things and is STILL on the Island. That would be freakin' hysterical.
As far as Sun and Jin being in different clothes at their wedding than we've seen in the past, I think they made a costume switch during this actual flashback, between the ceremony and the greeting, and probably according to custom rather than an alternate-reality hiccup.
I'll greatly condense a reply that I left on Benny's blog for interested parties here.
The idea that an alternate timeline was created the moment the left-behind group (Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Daniel) arrived in 1974, and that when the Ajira flight arrived the passengers who remained in the present (Sun, Lapidus, Ilana, Ben) were actually not in the 2007-A that they left but a 2007-B that exists (at least on the Island) stemming from history changing course 30-plus years ago, is creative *but* problematic because of scenes we saw in the time jumps that took place before Locke ever turned the Wheel and left the Island. More at Benny's blog!
@Shoop: True - Unless it takes time for someone reinhabiting/recreating another body takes time for the new person to settle in, but you're probably right
@sonshine: Haha, I know.
@Benny and Sonshine: Yeah, I really hope we get to see Jack's face when he realizes he was wrong. Again. (IF he is, which he probably is, because Jack is always wrong.)
@Blam: As far as Sun and Jin being in different clothes at their wedding than we've seen in the past, I think they made a costume switch during this actual flashback, between the ceremony and the greeting, and probably according to custom rather than an alternate-reality hiccup.
I know they changed, but the dress was different. I'm pretty much positive because I hated the dress she was wearing in that flashback, but I loved the one she was wearing in this one. So maybe it was just a prop error?
Since we're closing in on 400, I'll post here!
Just some notes I took from viewing the episode again. Some of them have been alluded to/said, but as far as I can remember, not with the implications I present.
1) At the Cabin, Ilana says: "He's not there. Hasn't been in a long time. Someone else has been using it."
This last statement is the key. If we think that this was Jacob's cabin at some point. Then someone else has been using it and it could be the nemesis or Richard (pretending to Ben it was Jacob).
If we are to believe it was the nemesis' cabin (I have some thoughts further down), then that someone else could also be Christian.
My thoughts as to why the cabin could have originally been the nemesis' is that it was supposedly built by Horace (his body's jumpsuit had the plan/map). Now Horace, having been brought, could have been taken by the nemesis. Or been influenced. The vision itself could certainly have been nemesis influenced. Some food for thought!
2) In the Jack flashback, after the surgery, Christian tells Jack: "Are you sure I'm the one who doesn't believe in you, Jack?"
Which could be telling that Christian (either form) believes in Jack, but that Jack needs to BELIEVE in himself.
3) Not-Locke appears distraught when he sees the standing leg, his face is full of emotions. Is it because he is still keeping up appearances and want to win an Emmy for playing Locke, or because he, himself, his surprised since the last time he saw this leg with eyes, there was a whole body attached to it?
4) A thought on Daniel and the incident. Late in season 4 or early in season 5, Daniel says that his journal contains everything he's learned about the DI, and he is obviously aware of the incident and what it supposedly is. His research could certainly have been supported by his financier (Mr Widmore).
If he's done his research, would he not have been made aware that a group attempted to detonate a nuclear device at the Swan site? I'm sure DHARMA would have kept some info on that.
5) Now, don't hate me for this, I'm just looking at the scene in a strict production point-of-view. But could a possible reason why Juliet's being dragged looks so much like Locke's in the first season finale is because they used the same mechanical device to shoot the scene? (I'm not trying to take any meaning out of it. It could be done on purpose, or a coincidence. Just saying!)
HAVE A GOOD THURSDAY!
Good point on all those Benny.
The note about Dan's notebook is especially interesting in light of the whole "Was the bomb the incident or did it prevent it?" debate.
Well, I briefly considered doing 27 - one word posts just to get us to 400 ... but that would be cheating!
Benny's recent comments got me to thinking again about Horace. I wonder how much more we are likely to see of his story if we are back in 2007 for next season? From off-Island (convenient) witness to Ben's birth ... to his recruitment of Roger & Ben for Dharma ... his leadership and acceptance of Sawyer, Juliet et. al. in 1974 ... his marriage to Amy and parentage of Ethan ... his knowledge of and (perhaps lukewarm) support for the various scientific experiments and the Swan Station ... his arguments with and eventual capitulation to Radzinsky ...
... and somewhere in this timeline, his construction of a little cabin in the jungle ... sometime before his death in the Purge. What role has he played? As a generally peaceful man, not above standing by while others (pun intended) commit violence in service of the Greater Good, I think we may find that his story is indeed linked to Jacob somehow - as his construction of the cabin that once housed (protected? imprisoned?) him suggests.
Or, was his presence at Ben's birth entirely coincidental? And what of the among-the-missing Olivia Goodspeed? Will we ever learn what happened to Horace after the Incident?
Yes, kids, these are the things that keep me up nights.
@humanbean: I was wondering the same thing about Horace! Is he just being manipulated by the Island/MaybEsau? What is his role? I wonder too if we'll see more of him...
The finale was a Jacob episode -- or at least the first hour was; second was, I guess, Juliet's with just the one actual flashback. So if Esau has visited some or all of our castaways as well, we wouldn't know it yet.
HB's point about Horace being so conveniently at Ben's birth brings me back to my admittedly odd theory that in '70s Dharmaville Horace might -- might I say -- be either a pawn or some kind of prison for Esau and/or Smokey (or both), and that the sonic fence is to keep him in when he's drunk and tortured and perhaps realizing his actual nature. This is the kind of hypothesis that could get easily shredded in one episode, almost incidentally, but we won't get another episode for eight frakkin' months.
And that's how long at minimum it'll be before we find out whether we'll see characters visited by Esau in the form he had in the opening act, or Esau in the guise of other characters, or other characters such as Horace acting as Esau's agents knowingly or unknowingly, or Horace and other Dharma members acting under some other entity, like Alvar Hanso, who might know where to place people at the right time, as Horace was there at Ben's birth and his mother's death. On the other hand, if there's nothing special about Ben then Horace's presence wasn't suspicious or convenient, it just was, and it's just bad luck for everyone whose lives Ben made miserable that Horace ever met his father.
Everyone! Someone on lostpedia noticed something MAJOR!
Ajira flight 316 took off in 2008, and time travelled to 2007.
The reason Hurley was on 316? Jacob told him to be there, he told him in 2008.
BUT, Ben stabbed Jacob in 2007. This isn't the end of Jacob!
@Robbie: Do you have a link? Or did they explain their reasoning for this?
I've been trying to get a date and time for it but haven't found anything except "morning".
I've love to read what they say.
nah all they said was what I said, but in question form.
go here though for timeline clarifications:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
Thanks!
@Robbie: The following is not to knock on your hopes that Jacob is not done. It could very well happen. I'm just laying out my thoughts.
@Robbie/everyone: After checking the timeline link provided, I gather that there isn't enough information to really pin point a date for flight 316 (departure AND crash). But I do have a "theory of years".
The most probable indication is Jeremy Bentham's passport, which was apparently issued in December 2007. But there are some errors on the passport that it could be just a prop department problem, which seems unlikely with the closeup. They wanted us to notice something.
In New York, when Locke is talking to Walt, it definitely does not look like winter to me (the green tress are a dead giveaway). It would most likely be spring or summer. Since it probably did not take months for Locke to get there, this is at least one seemingly inconsistent aspect.
Lastly, the lostpedia article on Locke said he died a month after visiting Jack, but there are no evidence of such in any of the episodes. There are no date marks (on screen, TV/newspaper props, etc.)
So given all of this, the only strong evidence suggesting Ajira left in 2008 is based on the Bentham passport.
Furthermore, and I might need significant proof/contradiction, there no on-screen evidence that said the Ajira crash was located on Hydra in 2007. All the time references we have are that DHARMA is in July 1977 (Sawyer in The Incident) and the "Thirty Years Earlier/Later" statements. I would say that "Thirty One Years Earlier/Later" does not have the same 'prefect' ring to it, why not round it out.
As well, remember that the event of the season 4 finale spanned December 2004 (the escape/island moving) to January 2005 (the actual rescue). From then on (Season 5), we were given the "Three Years Earlier" statements, which could very well place the events we've seen (in the future) in late 2007 or early 2008.
So, if we are to gather that the events take place in early 2008. Locke getting a passport issued in December 2007 while arriving in, say March, certainly makes sense. As well as his seeing Walt in a sunny, green New York in the spring. The timeline observed by Jack's beard could be consistent (still unproven) and thus Ajira 316 departs some time in early-mid (?) 2008. It crashes on an island (still in 2008) while some of its passengers disappear some thirty odd years earlier in July 1977. Given that we are not told exactly what year it is on the island (except inferring from "July 1977" and "Thirty Years Later"), I do not conceive that we know for a fact we are seeing island events in 2007.
This may be irrelevant to everyone else, but it is just a slight remark as to what year it is exactly on the future island. A note as to whether or not Ajira went back into the past.
Thanks for your explanation, I agree it is not clear.
However, there has been confirmation that they are in 2007. Damon Lindelof and Carleton Cuse said they time traveled to 2007 in the recap before the 100th episode: http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lost:_The_Story_of_the_Oceanic_6
But yeah there hasn't been any confirmation IN THE SHOW, besides the 30 years earlier stuff.
I also don't see how it is "obvious" that it is 2008 when 316 went off, but if they "time traveled" to 2007, and it couldn't have been before 2007, they had to have been in atleast 2008.
Some one posted a theory that 2007 is the islands "present", and Jacob a little before the finale went off the island to see Hurley, which in Hurley's present is 2008. People's present is all relative. Pierre Chang's present is 1977, while it isn't for the O6. If you understand me. So this might mean he didn't visit Hurley after being stabbed.
We'll have to see. He might be like Obi-wan/Gandalf/Aslan/Jesus and come back stronger than ever, otherwise why did he accept his death so easily?
Another comment to get us closer to 400.
Blam: On the other hand, if there's nothing special about Ben then Horace's presence wasn't suspicious or convenient...
A good point, Blam, and also something that got me thinking about why Ben was 'chosen' by Richard (supposedly) in the first place. So we have confirmation from Ben that he's never seen Jacob, but, we do know that he saw his mother, long dead, on the Island. This is what piques Richard’s interest, her dying off-Island and appearing on it, something that, judging by Richard's reaction, is very rare. Thinking about this, could the apparition of Ben's mother have been Esau, setting into motion a series of events that would, in thirty (or so) years time culminate in the "death" (in inverted commas because, like so many things, we don't actually know) of Jacob? A series of events that ultimately result in John Locke becoming accepted as the leader of the Others, in order for Esau to achieve his goal, the death of Jacob. Events which include Esau impersonating Christian (another dead body that is unsecure on the Island), instructing Locke (from what is now considered by some theorists here as Esau’s prison, formerly Jacob’s cabin) to turn the FDW, Ben insisting on turning the FDW the first time, unsuccessfully, sending Locke through time to reveal his own 'specialness' (good word, that) to Richard (“I’m special because you told me I am, because back in ’54 I told you I was, which lead you to tell me.”), a manipulation by Esau which places Locke in the position of power and trust he needs to be. The time jumps force Locke to set it right, turning the donkey wheel again, which leads him off the Island. His adventures off-Island lead to his death (at the hands of Ben, through his own jealousy), which ultimately convinces Jack and the others to take him back to the Island (a simplification, obviously, but this post is long enough as it is), dead this time, in order for Esau to use his likeness to get Ben near Jacob. Esau has essentially manipulated Ben’s insecurities, and the circumstances of his upbringing (his father blames him for causing the death of his wife just by being born), to shape him into the bitter and twisted man that ultimately will be Jacob’s downfall, stabbing him in a fit of rage. Essentially, Esau dupes Ben, Locke, and by extension, Richard, into placing everything (and everyone) in place to achieve what he swore he’d do to Jacob, sitting one morning on the beach, next to a statue, looking out at the incoming Black Rock.
Just a theory, of course. (I deleted my previous draft of this comment to include some more references to Locke’s position of power as the new leader of the Other’s. It wasn’t an attempt to just get us to 400. :)
I've been wondering if when they all flashed back and saw the statue might have been the same time we saw Jacob and the man in black sitting on the beach by the statue? Could it have any significance?
@brodal: That's actually an interesting observation you bring there. The way the time skips happened at this point, regarding the Orchid, was the following:
A- Destroyed Orchid building;
B- The open well;
C- No well, statue;
D- Filled well, not shown statue (1974).
So, there's likely a chronology to be established! And it can easily be determined as:
1- No well, statue;
2- Open well;
3- Well filled, (not shown statue);
4- Destroyed Orchid building.
The point I bring is, who dug the well? We've pondered that earlier but now we have some frame of reference. If the flash from LaFleur is around the same time as Jacob's beach scene, then we are left we few choices as to who built the well.
- Jacob;
- Jacob's 'friend';
- The Black Rock crew;
- The Natives (If they are not from the Black Rock;
- DHARMA before building the Orchid;
- Anyone else who stumbled upon the island that we are not aware of.
I personally don't believe DHARMA dug it, neither do I believe they filled it up! So the question now is who do YOU believe dug it, and WHY?
We might actually get to 400!
I'm really intrigued by Brodal's suggestion, too. Just the thought of the Fantastic Four popping into the very moment that Jacob and Esau were talking by the statue is nifty, even if it has no relevance or revisitation in the script!
PS: I almost came up with something tacky like "the Quantum-Leaping Quartet" instead of "Fantastic Four", but decided it was an unintentional challenge to myself:
Daniel: scientist, like good ol' Mister Fantastic
Sawyer: the hotheaded Human Torch
Juliet: Invisible Woman, at least when Kate's around
Miles: somebody else go for it, 'cause my only connection between him and the Thing was exceedingly lame
I'm convinced that Geronimo Jackson dug the well, but still working on why.
Blam: I'm convinced that Geronimo Jackson dug the well, but still working on why.
Acoustics, man. It was all about the groovy acoustics. Can you dig it?
Then the psychedelic haters filled it in, with Geronimo Jackson inside. That's why their celebrity never spread past the island.
Hey, I think we might be on to something here!!
Can you dig it?This was actually the rationale behind my Geronimo Jackson theory, but I figured it was too bad a pun even for me.
A few random comments I've been meaning to post since rewatching...
When Richard asks NotLocke about Ben strangling him, I noticed that his exact phrasing is "That's my recollection." Not, yes that's what happened, but that's what I remember (since I'm not actually Locke - I just have his memories.
Also - very creepy the way that NotLocke tells Ben that they're going to have to "deal with the rest of the passengers of the Ajira flight." Ben freaks and says, "What do you mean, deal with them?!" and NotLocke is like, "You know what I mean." How cold. Also makes me think that he knows that Ilana, etc. are working for Jacob because he's going to kill them (at least that is the inference.
@Blam: I'm convinced that Geronimo Jackson dug the well, but still working on why.
I've got it! I've got it! They dug the well in an attempt to follow the white rabbit to Wonderland according to their Alice in Wonderland obsession! It all makes sense now. :P
Hmmmm... Can I make 8 more comments and make it all the way to 400? It's no fun if no one else is here to see it happen :)
Thought about Ilana/Jacob- Ilana knows Jacob. In the hospital she says she is glad to see him. She also knows of, though she doesn't ever seem to have met, Richard (or Ricardus). Perhaps Ilana worked for MaybEsau (kind of like Richard works for Jacob [if he actually does])and he abandoned her or cast her aside when she messed something up. Then Jacob comes to her in the hospital to offer her a second chance - a CHOICE - to change things, to make a difference, and to help him defeat MaybEsau.
Ummm... apparently I can't count, because I should have said 7, not 8 and now it's 6. But this is the last one honest. For now.
My sister and I noticed that when Ben stabs Jacob, Jacob falls forward, touching Ben and the moment is given a little significance (kind of the way that they hold the moment when he touches Sawyer when handing him the pen or handing Jack the chocolate bar). Don't know if it means anything, but now Ben has been "touched" by Jacob and I wonder if that will come into play next season.
@Blam: Never, EVER censor yourself when a pun comes to you! Your puns are chocolatey and delightful, please don't hesitate to offer them. They might even provoke HB and the pun police to post more.
Heh. Another post closer. 400 soon!
OH! I lied. Last thing for now, really.
A number of people commented that Jacob isn't seen to touch Juliet and I was thinking, maybe no physical touch, but he's supposed to be the one that healed her sister. So, in that way, he had a significant impact on her life.
And also, my post is up about Jacob=free will if anyone is interested :)
And Nikki - I preordered Finding Lost season 5! Yeah! (hurry up and get it written already :P)
Sadly, the Pun Police are woefully underfunded and lack the facilities to hold such desperate characters as yourselves. I, of course, am not their actual leader per se - more like a rogue warlord who runs ragged over the civilized world, riding down humor scofflaws and wreaking vengeance upon them.
Sort of like Attila the Pun. ; ]
Blam: I'm being 100% honest here... when I wrote "can you dig it?" I was trying to come up with a saying from the 70s to go with my "groovy" adjective, and I totally didn't even make the connection to the well!
Man, I'm brilliant without even trying! Hm. Maybe that's not brilliant, actually. All right, I was going to respond to another post, but just realized this will be comment 399, and so now I'll sit back and see who gets 400! :)
Who else but me!
And now I'll be the first one on page 3. :) Wow, you guys are awesome.
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