First, thanks to humanebean for sending me the above picture that he screen-capped from last week... I always knew I was a candidate! And my name hasn't been crossed out yet!! Is this a good or a bad thing? Does this give me access to more than one universe?
Welcome to the earliest Lost post ever, thanks to CTV running Lost at 7pm tonight (woohoo!). I've post-dated this to go live at 10:05 so it doesn't go up too soon and everyone will have seen it on the East Coast already.
“You said that there was still good in your soul. Then prove it.”
I was totally expecting this week’s episode to be about Sun, with that title (and it would have been consistent with the sixth episode of season 1). And I also have that Gordon Lightfoot song in my head now…
Poor Sayid. No matter which reality he’s in, he’ll always be the remorseful man trying to be different, but somehow always getting sucked right back into the violence. Most of his story throughout the series has been him trying to escape his past as a torturer and embrace the lover side of himself, but instead he’s always drawn back in, whether it’s to torture Sawyer or to become Ben’s hitman. Now, just as he’s denying himself the one thing that would make him happy, he becomes his brother’s avenger… and by the way, taking care of his brother ALSO seems to be something he’ll be stuck doing in every reality.
I loved this episode. Loved loved loved it. And where the other sideways reality worlds all seemed to have a pat happy ending, this one is the first to end in a cliffhanger and tie Sayid's story to Jin's. While I had some trouble actually listing any answers that were given, I do feel like we actually DID have things illuminated for us. Sayid's completely gone over to the Dark Side, we know Jacob brought Dogen to the island and seems to have imprisoned him there, Dogen and Lennon are gone, the Temple's been destroyed, and Unlocke has an army of followers. Ilana and her group have caught up to everyone, and now the action will REALLY begin.
Highlights:
• Uncle Sayid?! Whoa.
• Was it just me or was Sayid particularly hot in this episode?
• The Sayid/Dogen ninja fight. That was AWESOME.
• Miles saying Jungle Hair Claire™ (thanks for that one, humanebean!) was acting all weird, but “still hot, though.” HAHAHAHA!!
• Sayid not even hesitating before driving the knife into Unlocke’s chest. You know, the fact that Smokey looks exactly like John Locke probably helped Sayid’s resolve, since he detested John.
• KEAMY!! ACK!
• Sideways world Jin!!
• I’m happy that Ilana’s team is finally joined back with Miles.
• Sayid, Kate, and Jungle Hair Claire™ walking through the bodies with that creepy “Catch a Falling Star” song playing in the background is one of the most amazing, bone-chilling uses of music EVER on this show. Was it Emilie de Ravin singing or was it another artist?
Answers:
• Sayid to Dogen: “I want some answers.” Dogen to Sayid: “Dude, get in LINE.”
• If Dogen is to be believed, the Man in Black is free because Jacob died, and he is evil incarnate.
• Dogen was brought to the island by Jacob, who was preying on his vulnerability and mourning. He wants to be there as much as Juliet wanted to be there.
• Yes, I know I’m reaching for answers here. Sigh.
Did You Notice?:
• The cab driver’s voice sounded familiar, but they never showed him. Maybe he just has one of those voices.
• So is this the brother who, in the other reality, refused to kill the (ultimately) deflated ghost chicken?
• Dogen talks about the scale of good and evil (which makes us think of Unlocke when he went to the cave and found the scale with the white stone and black stone) and it reminded me of Anubis once again, with his scales of judgment as he leads people to the land of the dead, weighing their hearts to see if they were good or evil.
• Sayid tells Dogen that he thinks he knows him but he doesn’t, and there’s a look on Dogen’s face as if he’s thinking, “No, I actually DO know you better than you think… but you don’t know yourself.”
• Miles is convinced that Sayid was dead… back in “LA X” we commented that Miles was staring at his body funny, and that maybe he was never dead, but now I’m thinking Miles was staring at it funny just as it was coming back to life, as if he could sense it was no longer a dead body.
• Poor Sayid, “You want me to go, you want me to stay, you want me to go… sheesh, Dogen, you change your mind more times than Kate.”
• With Dogen handing Sayid the knife, Sayid becomes the hero on a quest to kill the baddie.
• Sayid’s going to Toronto?! Well, right THERE is proof that he’s evil incarnate!! (And that would explain redeem147 emailing me partway through the episode saying, “I hope I’m living in Sayid’s sideways world!” LOL!)
• I love how Jack just wanders past Sayid, and at first I thought there was no recognition, but he does look at him with a little more than a passing glance.
• Dogen told Sayid not to let Smokey talk at all, and later Sayid says he didn’t, but Unlocke actually says, “Hello Sayid” before Sayid plunges the knife into him, so technically it’s too late.
• Unlocke asking Sayid, “What if I told you that you could have anything you want?” sounds a LOT like Ben asking Locke what he would do if Ben would tell him there’s a box on the island that could contain anything Locke ever wanted inside. Is that a suggestion that Unlocke is just manipulating him? He reminded me of the snake in the Garden of Eden.
• Do you notice how Lennon and Dogen refer to everyone by their last names? They referred to Shephard, Reyes, Ford, and Kwon… the same way they’re logged on the cave ceiling and in the lighthouse. Ilana does the same thing when she shows up, and only refers to everyone (including "Linus") by their surnames.
• Jungle Hair Claire™ is singing “Catch a Falling Star,” the song that her father sang to her, and the one Kate would sing to Aaron.
• Lennon gives Kate two minutes… that’s one less than the Others gave Walt and Michael.
• When Kate says, “I raised him,” it makes us think of “Raised by Another,” where Jungle Hair Claire™ had been told no one else can raise him. Is that what runs through her mind as she glares at Kate?
• When the van pulls up to Nadia’s house, the goon who steps out is Omar, one of Keamy’s men from the island. He’s one of the ones killed in the big ambush by the helicopter at the end of S4.
• Did anyone else think Keamy’s men were walking Sayid into Satriale’s?!
• Poor Keamy… in the original timeline, he was a Navy Seal and a killing machine mercenary. In this one, he’s just a small-time gangster modeling himself after other gangster movies and wearing a flashy pimp suit.
• Keamy frying the egg reminded me of Locke frying the egg for Ben’s breakfast.
• Sayid always shoots people in the chest (didn’t work so well on little Ben Linus). It’s like he wants to shoot them in the place where he feels the most pain.
• In the sideways world Dogen’s son is close to him and is a pianist, and Dogen is very involved in his life. In this one Dogen is mourning him and blaming himself for his son’s death.
• I don’t want to be rude here, but when Smokey first comes into the camp, shooting straight out and then retreating with the guy, it looked particularly… phallic.
• Notice Ben says, “There’s still time.” And Sayid says, “Not for me.” The use of the word “time” here is significant.
• Unlocke standing there with his “followers” was reminiscent of the beginning of season 4, when Locke and Jack split forces and the people formed two camps. Interestingly, Claire was with Locke back then, too, but Kate and Sayid were with Jack.
The Numbers:
Dogen’s son was 12 when he died (8 + 4).
So Many Questions...
• Dogen stops short of killing Sayid when he sees the baseball hit the ground. We find out that he’s on the island because of his son, who was a baseball player. Is that why he stops? Or has he been told by Jacob that if he kills anyone on the island, his son dies? What sort of chains is he in on the island? (In my original notes, I jotted, “If the baseball falls, will the Red Sox never have won the Series?”)
• Where’s Jin? I’m a little annoyed that two episodes ago Sawyer and the Man in Black were joined at the hip and then Sawyer just disappeared, and now Jin is just gone. Where is he?
• Why does Dogen immediately want Shephard and Reyes in his room?
• Why did Keamy’s men capture Jin? Where is Sun? Did she somehow ditch Jin at the airport?
• A couple of weeks ago we all talked about how it’s possible Jacob has taken over Sayid’s body. After Dogen’s anti-Jacob story, could that be why Sayid goes apeshit on him?
• If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?
• Where did Ilana and Co. come from?
• When the smoke thundered past Kate’s head, did you see anything in it? She was staring at it with her mouth agape, and I slowed it right down and watched it frame by frame, but I haven’t watched the HD feed yet so I didn’t see anything in it. I swear something looked like a Dementor at the very end of Smokey’s tail as they went past.
• When Sayid says, “Not for me,” Ben stares at him as if he sees something else in his eyes.
• What is the significance of Dogen's dagger? He pulled it out of the ceremonial box like it was a very important knife. How has it been used in the past?
• Ilana pushes on that same omega symbol on the wall that Hurley was staring at last week… clearly it’s associated with Jacob in some way, but why? Where did they go?
• Unlocke gives a strange glare to Kate, and doesn't look at all happy that she's there... is it because you couldn't see her on the cave ceiling (which, despite what he said appears to be Smokey's domain) but she was still an uncrossed-out candidate (#51) in the lighthouse? What about her doesn't he trust?
• What’s Ben going to do? He’s not with Kate and everyone, and he’s not with Ilana and her group anymore because their door closed behind them with him out.
Reminder: Tomorrow listen in to Marshall and Forbes on The Ocean 98.5 in Victoria, BC at 6 a.m. local time, 9 a.m. EST. Go here and click on the Listen Now button if you’re out of the listening area.
And tomorrow at noon I will once again be participating in the Globe and Mail Lost chat from noon to 1pm EST. Go here to ask questions and comment. See you there!
223 comments:
1 – 200 of 223 Newer› Newest»What an amazing episode!! Now Sayid is pure evil. I found myself thinking about why Dogen was even still able to fight with Sayid as he is typically so awesome. I was expecting him to kill him with some awesome move, but he didn't fight very well, like he wasn't the real Sayid. Even the stab in the chest to FLocke (after FLocke spoke, too late!) seemed weak. Clearly he is back in his increadible fight mode after he is convinced by FLocke.
The line FLocke uses - if you could have anything you wanted - is a typical SATAN line. That, plus the whole EVIL INCARNATE thing pretty much seals it for me. FLocke does not equal anything close to good.
WOW. I was on the edge of my seat this entire episode. Lindelof and Cuse certainly have a very strong talent for writing suspense, and they use it well in this entry about Sayid.
I'll start with what everyone will probably be talking about: the attack of the Temple. This sequence was so awesome to watch, and it is so satisfying to watch this smoke monster flow through the halls of the Temple, slaughtering everyone.
The great thing about this final season is that you know character storylines are going to end, and I really didn't know who was going to live and who was going to die. I especially was concerned about Kate's survival due to the fact that she has no clue what's happening with this Locke guy. She still thinks John Locke is dead (which he is, sadly).
Sayid's sideways life is very, very different from the one we know. Once again, he's forced to repress, but ultimately succumb to his talent for killing. He still pines for Nadia, and Andrews really gives a great performance in this episode.
Why are Jin and Keamy in this episode, you may ask? Jin, Sayid, and Keamy all spent a large amount of time on the freighter in season 4, but that could just be coincidence. I have no idea why Jin is there, so I'm excited to see where this story leads.
The scenes between Claire and Kate were fun to watch. It's clear that Claire was manipulated by Smokey, making her believe that Aaron was stolen from her. All I could keep thinking was, "Kate, don't go down that hole. Claire wants to kill you!" Kate's survival was really hanging by a thread the final 15 minutes here, and it was great storytelling.
The ease with which Sayid is tempted by Smokey is puzzling. You would think that he's been abused, tortured, and betrayed enough to not trust someone who promises peace, but I guess he'll learn his lesson soon. After all, unbeknownst to Sayid, it was Jacob and Widmore who caused Nadia's death, so perhaps Sayid was told this and would easily side with Smokey in this situation.
I have to comment on the genius of having "Catch a Falling Star" play while Sayid, Claire, and Kate survey the aftermath of the Temple's invasion. The song is what Claire always wanted the adoptive parents to sing to Aaron (which Kate does), and it's what Christian sang to Claire. The song used to nicely apply to Charlie Pace (a fallen star), but now one could apply it to Claire, since she has fallen into this dark character from the lovable, cute, young mother she used to be.
The season looks like it'll continue the fast pace next week, but I have to admit that I'm pretty PISSED OFF with ABC if they really are spoiling Ben's death. They can say that someone will die, but to show mainly Ben and say that "the man who has caused so many deaths will meet his demise" is pretty damn stupid on a promotional basis. Of course, this is "LOST", so they could be talking about Smokey, which would be an interesting move to have him die relatively early in the season. We shall see!
Finally, Terry O'Quinn should definitely get another Emmy if he keeps up his work as Locke/Smokey this season. Every time he's on screen he's so evil and convincing as a ticking time bomb of death that the scene is automatically going to be one of the best of the episode. Damn, he's good.
Also, where are Jin and Sawyer? And how does Smokey plan to leave the Island? Will they hijack the boat/ship/plane that is bringing the VIP that Jacob is talking about?
Boom. L O S T.
For something that uses Egyptian imagery, there seem to be a lot of possible biblical references. Catch a falling star could be a reference to Lucifer (fallen angel) - is smokey Satan? Is Jacob?
Rev 8:10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water; and the name of the star is Wormwood; and a third of the waters became Wormwood; and many men died from the water because it was made bitter.
Rev 9:1 - And the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit. .. and the sun and the moon were darkened becasue of the smoke of the pit...and they were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth... but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. An they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months...
12:2 Then being with child, she cried out in labour and pain to give birth... And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron... And the woman fled into the wilderness...
There at least seems to be something religious going on, what with temples (Smokie's home? Was he a god to be worshiped, or an acolyte of one?) and magic (or miracles?) and such.
I'd be so much more upset about what happened to Sayid if Naveen hadn't played it so very well. And yes, Nikki, he was especially hot tonight.
You're right. That was exactly the line I meant. I'm heading to Bay Street tomorrow to stalk him. ;)
Dogen stopped from killing Sayid because he knows that Sayid is a Candidate (as per the Jacob-ankh list), and that killing Candidates is against the Rules. That's also why he sent Sayid after Locke (since Locke can't kill a Candidate either), and why he wanted Jack and Hurley as well (the only other two Candidates he thought he had in the Temple).
Following this line a thought, Alex was likely a Candidate. Keamy, however, seemed to kill her no problem, and didn't seem to invoke any special punishment from breaking the rules.
Oh. My. Werd. Finally, we're getting somewhere.
@Nikki: Of course you're a candidate! Who better to solve the mysteries of the Island!?
Was it just me or was Sayid particularly hot in this episode?
Ahem. I have nothing against Sayid, but I've never found him my kind of palatable... until AlternaWorld Sayid showed up. Very Nice.
If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?
If he did, would that mean he would be "claimed" too?
When Dogen talks about the two sides, good and evil, the hand for good has nothing on it and the hand for evil has a black glove. I thought that was a nice touch.
It really felt like there was some major significance to that baseball. Is it possible it's something more than just a connection to his son? Something Jacob gave him? Like a key or protective thing or something?
I didn't realize that Sayid had been dead for 2 hours! That's crazy!
Awww... Sayid with the kiddles - they should be his :(
I know we saw Dogen last week, but in the Original timeline he just seems so much more ancient...
I realized that Jacob (as far as we know) has never asked anyone to kill somebody or killed anyone himself. He has asked for sacrifices to be made, but not deaths. Meanwhile Smokey/Lockalike has had Ben kill Jacob, Sayid kill Dogen and has killed how many people himself? Certainly has lived up to the "evil incarnate" moniker.
It also scares me that every Lostie that has been alone with him has disappeared.
Hi, folks! I'm sorry I was AWOL last week, but my laptop went nuts (my computer laptop, Joan).
I don't know why it took HB's brilliant pic of your name on the Dial to prompt this thought, but while trying to come up with a cutesy comment on it this popped into my head: Sarah Palin should get one of those mirror contraptions for her backyard. "I can see Russia from my house. No, really! Also Minnesota, Japan, the country of Africa... You know, all of 'em, any of 'em."
VW: joringl — Superman's dad if he were a Green Lantern. (Teebore'll get it, at least.)
You continually amaze me, Nik. Even if you DID get to watch the episode at 7pm - you still had this lengthy and detailed post DONE and post-dated to go live at 10:05?? DAMN, you're good!
Wonderful episode - lots to mull over and talk about in the days to come. Quickly, a few Things That Jumped Out At Me:
1) "I always do what I say" - does this reinforce the notion of Jacob as a man who can't follow through on his promises? MIB can deliver ... or is that just another part of his evil manipulation?
2) Once again, we see the ubiquitous many-pointed star pattern - this time on the lid of the box from which Dogen withdraws the short sword.
3) Interesting juxtaposition: Unlocke points out to Sayid that this is the second time Dogen has tried to have someone else kill him. Meanwhile, in this episode, Sayid is essentially asked twice to kill someone else - once by his brother and once by Dogen.
4) Miles is no longer engaged in a two-person game - he's playing solitaire. And, if he brought those cards with him from Dharmaville, I have to guess that he's using a Bicycle Deck. *ba-dum-bump* Zank you, I'm here all zee week. Try the veal.
5) Keamy!! Man, I would have loved to have him around for a few more episodes. *sigh* Guess he's either one of Mr. Paik's US underworld connections or working for one.
Can't wait to hear what everyone else has to say! Man, did I miss y'all last week when I was cruising around on a boat without ABC access (and really expensive internets, might I add). Good to be back!
Brandon: I thought they said "FACE" his demise, not "MEET," which could apply to just about any episode.
Oh! Right at the end when they showed Claire and Sayid coming out of the temple like that - paired together as the two "claimed" I suddenly wondered if they might turn out to be "Adam and Eve".
@redeem147: I like the idea of the fallen star/angel concept. Interesting that last season we had "Abaddon" too.
great recap as always. i think we will really pick up steam heading into the finale now. my friend just interviewed michael emerson ill let you know for who when it sees "print" looking forward to Ben next week.
btw we might lose ABC in my area. the dimwits that run cablevision one of the providers in the NY area is going to drop ABC.
as for LOST, the flash sideways have not been too compelling for me, but im sure when all is said and done there will be a major need to rewatch them. are we seeing what FLOCKE promises everybody?
@ARTAR: Please tell me you are joking about Cablevision... I think I'm going to have a panic attack right about now!
If Jin is with NotLock, Sawyer, Claire and co and Sun is with Ilana's group, does that mean that Jin and Sun are on opposite sides? Jinkies!
I've been thinking lately about the Sandman story arc where Lucifer decides he wants to leave hell and sets all the souls free, and God sends down a couple of other angels to deal with it all. I'm not sure how that ties into anything but it has been crossing my mind lately.
I liked the transition between Dogen remembering Jacob offering him his son's life, to un-Locke promising Sayid everything he's ever wanted. I think they are definitely trying to blur the lines a little bit. In any case, I don't think this is as easy as light/dark good/evil.
Awesome scene in the jungle when Sayid first encounters Flocke. Just like that first day on the island with the moving trees and the trumpeting noise.
All of this is really starting to take on some finality. Nothing is light-hearted. It is all very intense and carnage filled.
I'm pretty sure Sawyer and Jin are intact, although I don't know why. I just have a feeling. And where is Richard? He wasn't with Frank, Ilana, Ben or Sun.
I am very sad for the "passing" of Sayid as we knew him. But, I guess it will be nice for him to not have to "try so hard to be good" anymore. He and Claire were definately zombie like Flocke followers. CREEPY. I do have to say, however, that Naveen Andrews killed it in this episode. He was great.
Kate and her piece in this puzzle is still in question...and I think that Flocke agrees.
FLOCKE - He says he always does what he says. Is that true? He represented to Sun that he was all about helping her find her husband, but that doesn’t seem to be on his list of things to do. He has promised Sawyer he’d get him off the island, I assume he promised to get Claire her son back (though she didn’t seem to look around for him while walking out of the temple), has promised Sayid he can have Nadia alive. We haven’t seen him promise Jin anything, but assume he is with FLocke since Claire suggests he or Sawyer could go in instead of her. Is Jin really a recruit? We can’t tell yet.
Freaked out when the knife came out with no blood.
Where ARE Sawyer and Jin??
SAYID I have already posted on him, but can I just say, I spent the first half of the hour wondering where the pwnage was, and the second being very afraid. I am sad that he has succumbed to the dark side. Had I realized where we knew Omar from, I would have guessed Keamy.
KATE - I am actually starting to feel for her. First she’s dissed by Sawyer. Then called out as dissed by Miles. She finally finds Claire and she is nuts. She tells her she has her baby and wants to reunite them, and Claire gives her a “I would like to chop you up in pieces and scatter you” look on her face, which Kate doesn’t even see. Kate doesn’t make it with the Ilana led A team, and is left over, not recruited, into FLocke’s team. FLocke didn’t seem to be planning to recruit her, and he seems to have a problem with her – her name wasn’t in the cave (though Darlton says we just didn’t see it) – he didn’t seem to be happy to have her along. She doesn’t even really know what is going on. As they walk through the carnage, Claire and Sayid are unfazed, but Kate really seems baffled, but is still following Claire.
That last scene - How creepy is the music with the walking through the carnage?!? Evil incarnate indeed.
@redeem146 – nice find on the scripture. It fits perfectly!
Dogen’s story is the first time we see Jacob trading something explicitly. If he really did ask Dogen to come to the island to save his son, then was Dogen similar to Locke, in that he had to give his life in order to serve? Dogen gave up his life for his son, and Locke planned to give up his life to get everyone to the island. Now that Dogen is dead, why does that allow MiB into the temple? I thought the ash kept him out? Is MiB trapped on the island as long as there is any human life on it? I hope this is not the last of Dogen. I liked him, even though he didn’t like my language.
@BLAM - we missed you!
@sonshine no joke about cablevision
http://www.saveabc7.com/ theyve even got a countdown as to when it goes down.
Well. That was certainly action-packed, after the last few weeks. I have to say that watching all our beloved characters fall to The Dark Side one by one is really starting to bum me out, man. And, in keeping with that, again this week the off-island stuff was what got me through. I truly think they're outdoing themselves on that front, and I'm thrilled to see how it all comes together.
Was it Emilie de Ravin singing or was it another artist?
I'm fairly certain it was her, set to Giacchino's eerily dischordant arrangement. Sooo creepy.
I know I’m reaching for answers here. Sigh.
Double sigh.
Did anyone else think Keamy’s men were walking Sayid into Satriale’s?!
TOTALLY. And it's one of the reasons I was so incredibly surprised to see seamy Keamy. 'Ugh' indeed. But fortunately, I didn't have to be disgusted for very long.
Where’s Jin [and Sawyer]?
I get the feeling it has something to do with the fact that neither of them have been "claimed" yet, like Sayid & Claire. I think NonJohn is pretty uncertain that either of them is truly recruited, and the less outright bloodthirsty and merciless he seems, the stronger his case will be.
Why did Keamy’s men capture Jin?
If I had to guess, I'd say that they (or whoever their boss happens to be, 'cause it sure ain't Martin Keamy) were the men to whom he was supposed to be bringing all that money from his suitcase. Since I doubt he got it back from customs, well... come empty-handed, end up in the freezer.
If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?
I thought the same thing; it wouldn't surprise me at all.
When the smoke thundered past Kate’s head, did you see anything in it?
Seemed like it, but no HDTV in our house, so I'd convinced myself it was just debris he'd picked up while rushing around in there like betrayed-o tornado.
Unlocke gives a strange glare to Kate... What about her doesn't he trust?
Same thing as above with Sawyer and Jin, I think -- she hasn't been turned yet.
What’s Ben going to do?
What a dope; I completely missed that he was left behind! Let's hope it's something crazy and awesome and -- dare I say it -- hopeful for our poor beleaguered present-day storyline. Did I mention it's bumming me out? Like, big time.
approx 97 hours until we lose ABC here...
cablevision (the same company that owns and has destroyed the NY Knicks) is dropping ABC. there are other cable options around here and it looks like ill be taking one of them up...
back to LOST. much agreed on terry o'quinn winning an emmy. i think the show will do well since its the final season.
ive been waiting for Kate to get killed but think she sets up as the hero right now in the midst of FLOckes camp...please more desmond!
Dr. Linus next week
I'm not calling that thing Locke. I might be persuaded to call him The First.
Wow. Just got back from Vancouver (hence my absence from the comments) this morning, napped, did some work and what a great way to end the day! I read both previous posts and went through many comments but not all. Seemed like a good two weeks though.
Maybe it's been mentioned (and probably) but, before I tackle this episode, one thing that hit me right in the face with the appearances of Ben and Dogen in LA is the idea that the island sinking is most likely not due to the bomb, but rather some grader force.
And OK, can we stop calling Locke something weird. He's Locke he appears as Locke and represents what Locke did in past season. Even though it may not be the identical personality who arrived on the island the first time, it's Locke. Just as the writers have asked to refer to him as Locke!
@Nikki:
--I was thinking the exact same thing with the scale. This could represent Locke having banished the good side (throwing away the white stone).
--RE: Jacob in Sayid. Since Jacob appears to Hurley, I would doubt that very much!
--I agree, Ben knows something is up with Sayid. He's somewhat back in the loop and likely one of the more knowledgeable ones left in their group.
--Kate being with Locke's group. I think that he realizes she will be trouble. Claire and Sayid are following because of the darkness, the others are following by choice. Kate has been dragged along by Claire and wasn't given a choice to be around. He probably senses that in her.
A thought that occurred to me is that candidates can be taken over by the darkness. Claire and Sayid. But non-candidates just die. A candidate is an important player for Jacob but there is a vulnerability in that the darkness can take over and turn them into assets for who is now Locke.
All for now I think. Still running on no sleep for about 40 hours so my mind is not running straight!
Everyone who was so sure that this episode would be all about Sun and Jin (including myself) were wrong! Still, S & J popped up in intriguing ways. I was never more surprised than the moment when Sayid found captive Jin in the walk-in fridge. I’m now wondering if the bundles of cash that Jin had in his luggage were to pay off EEEVIL Martin Keamy. (Is he Canadian, by any chance?) Speaking of Canada, Sayid said that he was going to Toronto. How exciting for Miss Nikki!
It could be argued that NotLocke is now the central character in LOST. It must be so gratifying for Terry O’Quinn, who accepted the role of John Locke with very little to go on, and even less to DO. The producers asked Terry to just trust them, that before long his character would become very interesting and important in the story. He took that leap of faith, and has been rewarded. (Side note: Look at the cast picture on the cover of your LOST season one DVDs. John Locke is standing at the extreme right side of the line-up, as far away from the central characters as it was possible to be!)
I was impressed with Dogen’s fighting skills! Anyone who can go a full round with Sayid is deserving of respect. It was like seeing someone kick JB’s ass! (James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, take your pick.)
I never had a clear sense of how much time passed after Sayid’s ritual drowning in the Temple pool. But Miles said he was dead for 2 HOURS! His coming back to zombie life was just made even more extraordinary for the audience. Also, Miles had one of the best lines of the episode, regarding Claire “acting all weird. She’s still hot though.”
Sayid really can’t be blamed for being a tad late plunging the dagger into NotLocke, because he said, “Hello, Sayid” almost the instant he stepped into the clearing. But Sayid didn’t hesitate and did his best to act quickly. And did you notice, when NotLocke pulled it out, there was no blood anywhere, not on his shirt, and none on the squeaky-clean dagger. A marked contrast to how it was dripping blood after Sayid killed Dogen and Lennon. So sad about Dogen and his dead son, and the baseball that was a tragic souvenir. At the same moment I developed sympathy for Dogen, I was left to wonder exactly HOW he was the only thing keeping Smokey out of the Temple.
A few quick things. Remarkable how everyone with a medical emergency in this story always ends up in St. Sebastian’s. The scene with Dr. Jack hurrying by was almost exactly like the one with Shannon and her bitchy stepmother on the day Shannon’s father died. And Stargate fans, did you notice? The hieroglyph that marked the key location in the wall looked remarkably like a Stargate! It was seen last week on the way to the Lighthouse, too. There have been lots of rainy scenes in LOST, mostly because it just rains a lot in Hawaii, but the gentle rainfall that we saw in this episode was especially beautiful and atmospheric, I thought. Sometimes filmmakers get lucky. Once again, there were some interesting commercials. “Alice in Wonderland” opens soon, and it was fitting that the trailer was seen during LOST, with all of its “Alice” references. And I liked seeing the trailer for “Remember Me”, just because Emilie de Ravin is in it.
It was mildly shocking to see practically everyone in the cast reunited for about 10 seconds in the Temple, before rapidly choosing up sides. The effect it had, for me, was to get me completely stoked for next week’s episode! And that moment when NotLocke led his group away was when I really got the sense that his character is the mainest main one.
OK, so if FLocke is evil incarnate, then the only thing that can defeat him is….LOVE. How will that manifest??? His followers seem to be interested in love, but really, they are selfish. Are we counting on Jack to not be selfish? Rah roh.
Wow. This episode just left me stunned. They really kicked it into high gear with the last several minutes.
My aologies if this has been covered here already, but I actually wanted to comment on what Brandon said regarding Candidate Rules; I think this is in part why Dogen didn't kill Sayid and I've wondered about Alex being a candidate as well. (We see her last name on Jacob's list.)
I've also thought about the conversation between Ben and Widmore and the whole, "I know who you are. I know WHAT you are." I assume he's referring to Ben being a candidate, and I've wondered if Alex's death did in fact break this no-killing-the-candidates rule. Keamy did kill her, yes, but he didn't know she was a candidate, and Widmore probably did. (Is this why Ben asks Keamy if the decision to kill Alex was his versus Widmore's? Keamy never does answer.)
If this is true, how does it play into Locke's death? Did Ben not know that he was on the list as well?
And WHERE IS DESMOND??? (I don't have a crush on him like our host does, but the guy IS supposed to be special, right? He's gotten the shaft ever since the start of season 5 and some advancement on his storyline would be nice...)
My one problem with the episode was how obvious Sayid's stunt double was in the fight scene with Dogen. Though that may because because I spend a lot of time in these episodes staring at Sayid...
Is Illana going to resurrect Jacob with his ashes she took?
Also, I do think that Dogen is REALLY dead. Smokey could invade the Temple, and since Dogen is apparently a very important PURE GOOD guy, the tainted water would probably kill him for good.
And I also have that Gordon Lightfoot song in my head now…
I don't. Well, I didn't. Thanks, Nik! Sundown, y' better take care, indeed.
No matter which reality he’s in, he’ll always be the remorseful man trying to be different, but somehow always getting sucked right back into the violence.
I loved the line "Apparently, I'm evil."
I think there's a crucial difference between what Dogen and Omar were asking. Dogen wants Sayid to kill to prove that he's still good. Omar wants Sayid to intimidate, torture, and/or kill (he's not explicit) because he doesn't think Sayid's inherently barbarous nature has changed and so (1) he's capable of it and (2) it won't damage his soul.
Both requests have a certain measure of altruism and of appeal to Sayid's protection of others — Esau is "evil incarnate" and killing him will save Sayid' friends and other innocents; Keamy's gang is threatening Nadia and her kids' financial security and possibly even their well-being. At the same time, they're self-serving — Dogen believes that Esau will kill him, so as Claire suggests he sends someone who'll be safer; Omar got himself into trouble and can't get himself out.
But it seems like Dogen's request was ultimately purer in terms of saving the people at the Temple, if not the Island itself, and offering Sayid a chance at redemption, whereas Omar's was more craven and uncaring about the toll on Sayid's psyche.
Sayid/Dogen ninja fight. That was AWESOME.
Ayup.
more to come...
Dogen was brought to the island by Jacob, who was preying on his vulnerability and mourning.
I'm not saying I doubt Dogen's story, but it's certainly the most outright manipulation by Jacob we've heard about. Right? Even when he cornered Hurley in the back of the cab there was no explicit deal-with-the-devil quid pro quo like saving Dogen's son if he'd come to the Island and forego ever seeing that son again.
The cab driver’s voice sounded familiar, but they never showed him. Maybe he just has one of those voices.
I squinted trying to get a look at the school-bus driver through the door. We've been trained well. Keamy's right-hand man was familiar from other shows, but I also wondered if perhaps he hadn't appeared in other flashbacks, maybe as the restaurant owner who kidnapped Sayid on behalf of his wife.
When Kate says, “I raised him,” it makes us think of “Raised by Another,” where Jungle Hair Claire™ had been told no one else can raise him. Is that what runs through her mind as she glares at Kate?
I wondered if that was part of it, as I have since she sounded so upset when Jin told her Kate had taken Aaron last week. Though it still doesn't explain why Claire, if this is the same Claire, doesn't remember abandoning Aaron when she walked off into the jungle with Christian or Something Like Him three years ago, or have any appreciation that at least it was Kate, who helped deliver Aaron, who's been raising him... I also wondered if when she discovered that Aaron wasn't at the Temple after all but off the Island entirely she'd get an inkling that Esau is manipulating her and he may not be able to back up his promise.
Sayid always shoots people in the chest (didn’t work so well on little Ben Linus). It’s like he wants to shoot them in the place where he feels the most pain.
I think it's the likeliest kill shot, too, other than smack in the forehead.
VW: depaghast — Tim Burton's favorite leading man reacting to something shocking.
@Benny:
But... but... I love the name game! It's one of my favoritest LOST-related activities.
In fact, all this week I've been working on how to refer to Claire's horribly cool skull surrogate from last week's episode. According to Jorge Garcia's podcast, it was referred to as 'the squirrel baby' in the script. As for my personal list, I've narrowed it down to either Scaaron or Linus van Pelt...
If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?
I think he'd have to be dragged out of the water first. Maybe he'll come back to life only to immediately drown again. Once again, I'm remind of Buffy instantly staking Dracula as soon as he'd reappear. Good times!
Where did Ilana and Co. come from?
When a man and woman love each other very, very, much...
VW: dreeabl — Southern dribble.
@Joshua: Linus van Pelt ah hahahahahahahahahahaha
VW: twidfun - double the fun!
@joshua: see, names like that I like, both Scaaron and Linus von Pelt!
My issue stems more from the fact that we now have more answers as to what Locke is. Some call him Man in Black, but in fact we're not even sure that's his original shell. So MiB should only refer to the character in the beach scene with Jacob.
We know he is the Smoke Monster (called Smokey, which I support). But now that Locke is dead (until proven otherwise - never) this embodiment should be referred to as Locke, or on-island Locke (as opposed to LA Locke).
I would also accept Smokey-as-Locke since that is exactly who he his, and until we have a definite name, they are the options most fitting.
But so many people use different names that, while not confusing, is just inconsistent, and Lost has usually thrived on consistency, let's follow the nice example!
In the grand scheme of things, it seems he would be pitted against Jack, which makes my suggestion of keeping the name Locke all the more relevant as the duel between John and Jack as been at the forefront of the show since the beginning.
OK, before I respond to anything else - YES SAYID WAS BEYOND HOT in this episode. Mmmm. I like his new hair too. And his shoulders. And his hands. And his tummy. And the way he makes me want to have his babies...
I so just loved the opening fight sequence! It reminded me of dishwasher-legs Sayid, and it made me feel happy that Ms. Joan Crawford would be happy with Sayid's so-called "moves."
few thoughts to start:
Did anyone notice Dogen's necklace? It looks like a tiny version of the lighthouse.
When Claire and Sayid and MiB exited the temple—were the people waiting there for them the "others" who decided to abandon Dogen and leave with Smokie? Or were they other Others?
Who was creeped out when Claire told Kate that she's not the one that needed saving? I thought as soon as she delivered that line she was going to jump up and judo-chop Kate!
Who thinks that Darlton are planning to make us wait until the finale to see the Jin/Sun reunion?
Nikki said: "Why did Keamy’s men capture Jin? Where is Sun? Did she somehow ditch Jin at the airport?"
I am assuming that they made it to LA but that Keamy (or his associates?) were meant to receive the watch from Sun's father that Jin was carrying... and things did not go right.
Nikki also wrote: "Sayid’s going to Toronto?! Well, right THERE is proof that he’s evil incarnate!! (And that would explain redeem147 emailing me partway through the episode saying, “I hope I’m living in Sayid’s sideways world!” LOL!)"
As soon as Sayid said that, I KNEW redeem147 would be thinking something like that. I actually figured she'd be at the airport telling him to come with her. After that, I don't want to know. :)
Nikki mentioned: "Notice Ben says, “There’s still time.” And Sayid says, “Not for me.” The use of the word “time” here is significant."
I think here the important thing was the look of fear on Ben's face as he backed away. He knew that something was wrong with Sayid...how he spoke, the look on his face, his eyes and that touch of a smile. All gave me the shivers as well. If I had been there, I would have backed up and not turned away also!
This ep was so full of things that I can only say a bit:
Loved the fight scene between Sayid and Dogen. Loved the Sideways stuff with Sayid as well. Always feeling like he has to come last and can never be happy. I am so hoping that he will get some happiness by the end of this season... or take out every baddie going in one gigantic, exploding romp. Both work for me. Can't wait until next week. Can't stand that we only have 10 more eps until the END! :(
Wooo! Toronto, represent! I'm hitting the streets to see if Sayid comes marching past me! LoL
RE: SOMETHING INSIDE SMOKEY?
I looked carefully, and I did see something, but I think it may have been one of the redshirt Others Smokey was killing, just flying through the black mist on his way to a fatal collision with a wall.
RE: CANDIDATES
Alex being a candidate does make a lot of sense (sorry, I forget which of ya posted that). Remember, we did see the name Rousseau on the ceiling of Jacob's cave.
RE: CATCH A FALLING AAAAAAGHHHH!!!
That was one of the creepiest musical cues I've ever heard. I really hope Giacchino wins an award for his work; the stuff he's done for Season 6 are particularly amazing. The catch a Falling Star thing at the end of this episode notwithstanding, he also scored a great Temple theme (which we can hear when the Losties first see the Temple in LA X, Part 1, or in the background whenever Dogen is speaking). He also did a great piece of music for that huge rushing pan into the water in the Season 6 pilot, when we find out that the Island has been submerged. I alos love "Jacob's theme", which we first heard in The Incident, Part 1. it's so beautifully biblical and hauntingly eerie at the same time.
verification word: CHRIOL; the type of name LeFleur is.
On another note, Claire asks Locke why her and not Sawyer or Jin. So while their presence is not seen, their names are mentioned in a scene with strong importance to Locke not being able to do it and having to ask her specifically.
Last time we saw sawyer was with Locke after the cave. Last time we saw Jin was with Claire and Locke, at Claire's shack.
Just food for thought for the night!
JS - OK, so if FLocke is evil incarnate, then the only thing that can defeat him is….LOVE. How will that manifest???
With Sayid and I making Sweet Jungle Love. As many times as it takes. And then once more.
VW: Sxpot!!!
See!?
@Jenn - me feel happy that Ms. Joan Crawford would be happy with Sayid's so-called "moves."
I can't even tell you how much I enjoyed tonight's episode. Hmm, let me try. Sex, sex, sex. HAH!
I love the adrenaline rush the end of this episode gave me. It reminds me of "Through the Looking Glass, Part 2" which is still by far the most epic episode (in my opinion, anyhoo).
Looks like we're on a roll to the finale!
verification word: DYING. Seriously.
@Jenn: You know what this suggests though? Good and evil are relative to each other's side.
So when characters refferrence good or evil, it is always relative to who they are, but not necessarily relative to the overall world.
Let's assume that Jacob IS good (in absolute terms). Locke most likely believes he himself is good and that he is trying to save the world and sees Jacob as evil.
So, while this does in no way touches your comment, it's a suggestion on the ever-present confusion about who is on whose side. They always say they are the good guys, but everyone believes they are the good guys and the others the bad.
So yes, Dogen probably suggested that he wasn't good enough - for them - while in absolute terms this could have suggested not enough on the evil side of things.
And yes that was pointless! But I haven't written a comment in 3 weeks so yeah, I have a lot to say.
I loved this episode too, except for the potential demise of Ben ( I hope not so soon Niki what do you think?)Maybe Aaron was not supposed to raised by another was because Claire set of the evil chain of events on the island looking for Aaron at the temple and her quest for Aaron was what unlocke used as a selling point to recruit her apparently she doesn't remember leaving him in the jungle 3 years ago, and she like Sayid was brought to the temple after dying and liked Sayid that is how he has claimed Claire. I know I am wrong but it's just a thought
More on Dogen
He tries to manipulate Sayid the same way he manipulated Jack. He played on Jack’s guilt about the sacrifices people have made to “help” him, or really what happens to them when they follow him. He play’s on Sayid’s need to feel he is a good person – AU Sayid says he is not that person anymore, but everyone asks him to kill, and somehow, he always accommodates them. Read somewhere else – Sayid told Dogen he was a good man. He has never said that before. He was always undeserving and felt he deserved any punishment he would get. When he said he was good, who was already mostly gone. AND, he was especially hawt.
They did say this episode would break the mold, though I would argue there wasn’t much of a mold, this is only episode 6!
Did you notice the burning crosses in that last scene.
We’re gonna have to watch that again.
@Jenn – I do, I think that Jin and Sun will get back together in another 8 episodes, just in time to be ripped apart again. But that’s me.
@The Question Mark – another small Giacchino moment – as soon as Kate says she took Aaron and raised him, the note goes awry, along with Claire’s expression. It makes you afraid for Kate. I have recently purchased the music for Seasons 1 – 4, and he is a genius.
@Joan Crawford – I assume you are blogging from Hawaii?? :)
RE ABC Promo's
They have no idea what they are talking about. Though Michael Emerson has been spending a lot of time in LA......
@Nikki - I don’t want to be rude here, but when Smokey first comes into the camp, shooting straight out and then retreating with the guy, it looked particularly… phallic
Honey, that's just a side effect of Sayid's sexiness - Seeing giant phalli everywhere :D
I have never used the word 'phalli' before. I am impressed I guessed the plural of phallus on my first go.
@ The Question Mark
I too am blown away by the music constantly. I've been working on a project to document a lot of the themes in video-diary form and hopefully that'll come to fruition some day. I like to consider myself a bit of an expert on the LOST score :)
Have you ever checked out the 'Leitmotiff' entry at Lostpedia? I sometimes assist in editing that, but there's a great group of folks who created it and contribute regularly to collecting all the themes.
Did anyone else think of the Silence of the Lambs when we see Claire in that stone pit?
Great episode, great recap (@Nikki), and great comments. I have only one thought to add.
From the recap: "If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?"
The two people we think have been resurrected by the pool went in with mortal injuries: Ben and Sayid. (Both were gunshot wounds to the chest, no less.) Dogen was forced in hale and hearty, then killed in the pool via drowning by Sayid. Would the pool's healing properties work under such conditions? I somehow doubt it.
Gotta say the Lennon character seemed a bit superfluous in this season - introduced quickly, consigned to running around acting panicked or translating, then offed matter-of-factly and left to float in the pool. Was there a larger significance to his scenes, one we haven't figured out?
Mike T: Do I look like Brandon to you :-)
jachs: The type of itch Jack gets from his beard.
@ SAGACIOUS PENGUIN
I haven't seen the Leitmotiff feature, and I feel bad cuz i tend to frequent Lostpedia quite often! is it about Giacchino's music? I will definitely have a look-see, thanks for the info!
Wow. Okay, when an episode is that good, I don't mind that not a lot of questions were answered.
The palpable sense of dread of foreboding that hung over the premiere was back in full force and things have never seemed darker.
I loved how Ben just looked in Sayid's eyes and instantly went, "well, he's crazy. Moving on."
Dogen repeated Ben's phrasing in saying that Smokey wants to kill "every living thing" on the island. It makes me wonder if Ben, all the way back in season three, either knew or could forsee the change of events that brought us to this point.
What about Dogen kept Smokey out?
When someone was banging on the door in the restaurant, my thought process as to who it could be: Desmond, Widmore, Ben.
Not Jin. Didn't even consider it. :)
@Nikki:
He reminded me of the snake in the Garden of Eden.
Me too! He seems to say exactly what people want to hear.
If Dogen drowned in the water the same way Sayid was, does that mean he could come back to life, too?
I doubt it. There seemed to be some ceremony involved in the resurrection that was lacking this time.
@Brian Douglas: great insight on how the rules apply to the candidates. I think you're spot on.
@SonshineMusic: Meanwhile Smokey/Lockalike has had Ben kill Jacob, Sayid kill Dogen and has killed how many people himself? Certainly has lived up to the "evil incarnate" moniker.
This is why I can't see Smokey as the good guy. Jacob may be an SOB too, but Smokey kills way to often and easily to be a good guy.
@Jenn Did anyone notice Dogen's necklace? It looks like a tiny version of the lighthouse.
Indeed! Good catch.
@JS Did anyone else think of the Silence of the Lambs when we see Claire in that stone pit?
It rubs the lotion on its skin... :)
Alright, more later, after sleep, when I can think more coherently.
@JS: Did anyone else think of the Silence of the Lambs when we see Claire in that stone pit?
TOTALLY! When we saw Claire in the pit, Batkitty and I both yelled at the screen 'IT PUTS THE LOTION ON ITS SKIN!!!'
@Ms Joan: LOVE. How will that manifest??? - With Sayid and I making Sweet Jungle Love. As many times as it takes. And then once more.
Well, I was gonna say with Bruce Willis and Milla Jo... Jo... with the Fifth Element having huggins, but whatever works for you, Ms Joan. :)
I loved this episode, with Sayid ninjaism in both realities, excellent Smokey action, and Jungle Hair Claire (now with Creepy Skull Baby accessories!) creeping up the creepiness factor. But what it made me think about most was that Jacob was keeping Flocke/MIB on the island, and now that Jacob's dead, he can escape. Why? Was Jacob essentially a jailor? What did Flocke/Silas Addams/MIB do to get imprisoned there? What kind of entity is Jacob that his mere presence is enough to keep Flocke, who admittedly has some effing cool powers, from leaving of his own free will? They're my questions from this awesome episode.
As usual, on Tuesday nights I can't be home to watch Lost as soon as it airs. But when I get home, I replay it. Piece of cake, I've got it set to record every episode.
So...I turn on the TV, check my Directv list...there it is! Lost...the episode's called "Sundown", cool! Push "play"...this is gonna be good!
Kate's standing there holding a rifle, NotLocke is glaring at her...what the HELL??? Is this the
END of the episode?? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
My Directv only recorded the LAST TWO MINUTES of the show, from 9:00 to 9:02!!!!!
I'm SO bummed.
Verif word: pyrobili
If I was named Billy, I'd set fire to my DVR.
Absolutely Great Fast Paced (for Lost) INTENSE Episode. This is the best one of the season so far (IMHO). Now naturally (IMHO) it’s still more frustrating than satisfying when weighing the Good versus Evil of Lindelof/Cuse holding back information and answers versus telling the story they want to tell.
Yet tonight’s action packed, suspenseful from start to finish story hit all the right notes (even the creep catch a fallen star music after the smokey did his thing in the temple at Sundown).
While I have not been a big fan of the Sideways reality where we see most of the characters find purpose and some measure of redemption. This one was Different. Sayid just can’t catch a break and it appears there will be no redemption for him.
Sayid in both realities is a tortured soul. A guy who wants to be a better man yet Fate or is it Destiny has different designs for him. I mean, come on, who didn't think he was going to kill his brothers tormentors from their very first conversation?
Seeing the tender Sayid with Nadia, the woman he loves, and yet in all realities, their love will Never be was fantastic writing and acting. After all that he has been through how could he turn down UnLocke’s offer to Finally have the One thing in the world Sayid wants more than life itself? It was a rather tempting offer.
With the exception of not providing answers, I thought the pacing, drama, acting, story lines were Lost at it’s Best. Great Fight scene with Sayid and Dogen in the first few minutes and like last week a rather compelling sideways story yet the whole frenetic pace on and off the Island was GREAT!
There were so many good things in this Episode:
Seeing Sideways Sayid with Nadia and as a fan, thinking for a second, finally they can be together only to find out she is married to his brother. I hurt for him watching the screen.
Miles getting one of the few and best funny lines of the night "...Yeah Jungle Hair Claire is in here...she seems crazy But Still Hot...".
Unlocke looking unfazed, unharmed, “…now Sayid why did you do that?” pulls the knife out his chest and gives Sayid one of those Creep I'm going to kill you looks before the commercial break.
Even Keamy showing up in the Alt-World as the still Crazy Loan Shark( instead of Mercenary ) was the welcomed sight of an old character friend that I had forgot. And as much as I liked him, I rejoice when he is killed again.
Finally, I thought Smokey Killing in the Temple was awesome, intense, fast paced and made this episode a roller coaster ride beginning to end.
Now again my disclaimer, I have no clue if this episode significantly put characters in play to unravel the mysteries that are Lost or if this episode even significantly advance the plot .
However, as just a stand alone, action packed, drama filled story, this was by far the best episode in season 6 to me.
P.S. Is Jacob really a Good Guy/Entity if he blackmailed Dogen while Dogen's son is dying to come to the Island?
"Jacob may not be the total good guy we think"
P.P.S.S. On the other hand, unless the writers have one heck of a twist, I am fairly certain UnLocke is not a nice guy.
I struggle with the good versus evil name tags because Neither MIB or Jacob seem to view good and evil as we do. If UnLocke believes killing all these people helps him end whatever game he and Jacob are playing and he has found his loophole that will reset everything, then perhaps killing people as we would see them in a finite linear sense of life and death may not apply. When/If the loophole is finally achieved maybe all people, time lines and realities will Align where they are supposed to be????
Not sure this last rant made any sense and I hope the writers keep their word and don't give us any "...it was just a dream..." or there is one simple thread that explains everything type of ending.
As Trinity in the Matrix tells Neo "...It is the Question(s) that Drives Us...".
Oh, my. I'm all verklempt from serious overexposure to Super-Hot Sayid. While I do prefer his kick-ass "wife-beater and torcha scrunchie" persona, the "adored, kind and gentle uncle" one is pretty hot, too. (Just not as.) Frankly, I can't take too many more close-ups of those beautiful eyes. I'll have to take a few days' respite before watching this one again.
Joan Crawford, don't forget that Hot Jungle Love with Sayid is always fatal. (This explains why Nadia is still alive in Alt-World, though he did touch her hand, which means she'll probably fall down the stairs at some point and break her leg.)
I absolutely LOVED the Keamy scene. I was terrified at first, thinking the S.O.B. was gonna push Sayid's face onto the hot stove burner to "remind" him of the seriousness of his brother's debt. Totally didn't see the pwnage coming; he just seemed too kind and gentle in Alt-World.
Keamy begging for his life!!! BEST. SCENE. EVAH. And then - OMG, Jin tied up in the fridge! Awesome - two super-hot guys in one scene. (It didn't last nearly long enough.)
Did, uh...other stuff happen? I didn't notice.
I looked for Cindy, Zach and Emma in the final scene with no luck. Did anyone else spot them either with the UnLocke group, or dead?
@batcabbage - Following your comments about Flocke being free now that Jacob is dead, I don't understand why Flocke is still there. If he's free, why not get on whatever means of conveyance he likely would have been planning for a few decades to use and go home? If he's free, why does he need an army of followers? To be the slave rowers on his ship? If he's free, why is he still on the island, trying to gain followers and kill those who won't follow?
Best episode in terms of action so far. Catch A Falling Star scene at end was VERY VERY thrilling. I got the same feeling as I did during the O6 plane arrival and when everyone stood up at the beginning of this season.
KEAMY!!! I am totally digging this swan song parade of ALMOST everyone that's appeared on the show so far. At this token I'm betting all my worth that David Malcolm Kelly WILL be on at least one episode this season.
Lastly, anyone thinks the sideways worlds is really just what Unlocke "promises" people? I think at the very end of this season obviously Jack will stop Unlock and Unlocke will simply ask Jack, do you want THIS life or the pretty life/sideways?
Best episode of the season, easily. It had everything we love about LOST: character development, brisk pacing, tons of action, and -- of course -- intrigue.
Here's an idea to explore: Like Nikki, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the weird look on Miles face when he was staring at Sayid's dead body in "LA X." I initially thought he couldn't get a reading off of Sayid, therefore meaning Sayid was alive. Now, I'm beginning to think that maybe he couldn't hear Sayid's voice, but was able to hear the voice of whatever entity was taking over Sayid's body. Why wouldn't he say something about it? Maybe he was scared, didn't understand what he was hearing, or decided it wasn't important.
I am really enjoying this season so far. I've loved every episode for a different reason, and have a firm belief that in the end we will look back at these early episodes (especially the much maligned "What Kate Does") and go "A-HA!"
I'll have more to say tomorrow at my blog. Great comments everyone! Keep 'em coming!
Thanks for pointing out how parallel Jacob's deal with Dogen was to Jacob/Ben's evil deal with Juliet: cure her sister's cancer, but she has to stay and watch women and babies die.
His admission didn't make me like Dogen any more--he was still a sanctimonious jerk who thought he was better than anyone else. And it certainly didn't make me like Jacob.
(How many of these ugly blackmailing errands did Ben run in his tenure over the Others? And here we thought Ben invented Jacob a la the Wizard of Oz, for cover.)
Who'd have thought we'd feel sorry for Ben, after he sees that look in Sayid's eyes? Ben, on the "good" side?
BTW I don't think Alex can have been a candidate. Young Widmore ordered her killed as a baby, and then again as a teenager; Ben spared her because he liked the baby, not because she was a candidate.
So which Rousseau was the candidate?
When we see Jack in the hospital, it was like when Shannon arrived at the hospital after her father's crash. Only this time,Jack is not involved in Sayid's brother's injuries. It's like they appear together, but have no contact and just go their separate ways. I half expect that is what will happen with Jin. He'll be released by Sayid and then go off to find Sun. As for Sayid and Nadia, if Sayid's brother lives, then it's likely Sayid will leave for Toronto.
Ilana knew exactly where to look and what to look ofr onn the wall. Is she connected somehow to Jacob? Jacob promises things, but doesn't seem to deliver. How does Dogen know his son is alive? Is the side-universe a product of Jacob? When MiB told Sayid he could make anything he desired appear, I imagined Sayid pulling together body parts and calling them Nadia. Will Sayid turn Claire-ish and make a ghoulish Nadia? Or is the side-world, MiB keeping his promise to Sayid?
So what happened to Cindy and the kids? Are they going to be hunted down by Claire and Sayid and MiB's henchmen? There seems to be rules MiB still has to follow. When Kate appeared he didn't seem happy about it, but he didn't do anything either. Can MiB only attack if the Others resist him, or try to attack him? It seems that way. And while we're at it, what allowed Smokie to come into the Temple? Lennon said it was the death of Dogen, which means the ash only stops Smokie partly.
Just a curious note, could Adam and Eve be Sayid and Claire? But they would have to time travel.
I hope we don't see the demise of Ben next week. Except for the very beginning of the Season, Ben has proven rather lame, not up to his normal self. But when he saw Sayid, he realized things were really out of control.
When Claire was in the pit, her eyes looked completely black. A sign of being claimed? Probably. But it also reminded me of the Season 1 dream she had, where Locke had white and black eyes. He said it was Claire's fault and everyone would pay. This would still make Aaron special in a way we don't yet know, unless he is Jacob. Or a paradox as Jacob's father.
In the pilot for Season 1, Claire is wearing a black dress. Perhaps a foreshadowing of her final allegiance in this season. Similarly, island Sayid is wearing a dark tanktop, while side-world Sayid is in a light grey tanktop. In the side-world, Sayid is redeeming himself, despite the gun play with Keamy. When he wanted to confront Keamy, Nadia asked him to look after the kids, which is what he did. I do not think island Sayid would have done that. I look on side-world Sayid as having a more happy or resolved conclusion--the woman he loves is alive, she truly loves him, but he knows how to act in an honourable way (being a favoured uncle, a good brother).
Also in side-world, the bad guys seem to be less of their potential selves on the island. Keamy is a paper tiger, while Ben is certainly less than his island version. If we meet Widmore, will the same hold?
Lee
Gotta say my favorite part of the entire episode was the exchange between Ben and Sayid, where Ben says they still have time and Sayid says not for me...and Ben just backs away slowly...and Sayid gives him the creepy-over-the-shoulder/creepy-come-hither gaze. Excellently played by both actors. Amidst all the action (and there was a lot!), it's the small moments that often leave an impression in my memory.
I wonder now if the darkness that was growing in Sayid has truly consumed him...or if he is playing Flocke for a fool, falling back on his military training, and preparing to bring down Flocke by working on the inside. Although, if stabbing Flocke dead in the chest doesn't do it, I don't know what will.
I for one liked the Sayid/Dogen fight scene but didn't love it! My favorite Sayid fight scene is still the Keamy fight from S4 finale;)
I love it that whenever a place is branded as the "safest place to be" on this show it eventually becomes the exact opposite of that:)
- back in S4 premiere Locke said that than Othersville was the only place with any kind of protection...and then it got the swiss cheese treatment from Keamy and his merry men
- in S4 finale Lapidus says that the freighter is the safest place to be "right now"...and then it blows up
- now Ilana claimed that the Temple was the safest place to be and...well....whoops:)
Everytime they say that a place is the safest one to be, most people who go there or already are there end up dead!!
Loved this episode. The ending is gonna stick with me forever...and all hail Terry O'Quinn who was brilliant in every episode he appeared in this season. Coincidentally those were the only episodes that were above LOST average this year;)
Unlocke asking Sayid, “What if I told you that you could have anything you want?” made me think of Locke's conversation with Jack in White Rabbit about whether or not it was possible for Christian to be running around in the jungle...Lock had that same knowing look on his face even then.
Something I forgot to mention when I posted last night was what I thought of as the biggest revelation of the night, in terms of mythology: that the ash, whatever it is, doesn't do squat. This would seem to be how Smokey escaped the cabin in the first place. But what changed that negated its effectiveness? And if it wasn't the ash that was keeping Smokey out of the Temple after all, then what was it about Dogen that had the same effect? Something that Jacob had done? And is there anyone or anything left that might still hold the same talismanic properties?
I agree that this was a KICK-ASS episode.
But once the dust settles, Locke's team ends up looking like every comic-book "Evil Organization" I've ever come across: vengeful trickster, babbling crazy-lady, & blood-lusting zombie.
Meanwhile Jacob's team ends up looking like the "Justice League": Jack, Hurley, Sun, Iliana, & Lapidus...& I'm sure Kate & Jin will end up here.
It reminds me of that lame storyline BattleStar did in its last season.
They divided up the fleet into these ridiculous & predictable groups.
One one side, Gaeta/Zarek with every fringe lunatic known to the show.
On the other side, Adama/Roslin with every heroic stud.
This can end up being some truly crappy writing...or great sleight of hand!
This episode also makes clear just how different the "flash sideways" are, compared to anything else we've seen.
Island-Jack never had a son before boarding Oceanic.
But Flash-Jack has this little genius waiting for him after his flight.
Island-Sayid never reunited with Nadia before boarding Oceanic.
But Flash-Sayid not only reunited with her..he encouraged her to marry his brother!
I guess folks are right when they say that this is likely their lives...without Jacob's "touch".
Gives alot of credence to the theory that the "flashes" are actually an epilogue...Locke's promises put to action.
"If Dogen drowned in the healing pool, does that mean he'll come back to life?" My thoughts exactly. I'm really hoping that the same is true for Lennon, cause . . . he's awesome.
I'm hoping Lennon isn't dead. He's too cool to be dead.
The ending of this episode = CREEPY. And where is Sawyer and Richard?
I'll post more later.
Oops...sorry, BRIAN. It was late and I was sleepy and overdosed on Temple slaughter. :)
@batcabbage, @anonymous - I think for Smokey to be free, "every living thing" on the island must die. And he can kill everything, except the candidates. Only candidates can kill each other, which is why he is recruiting. Evil Sayid and Evil Claire are down for it, now that they have made pacts with the devil. I am not sure Sawyer is claimed per se, but he seems to be recruited. I am betting Jin is just hanging out to see what happens.
The only exception - Evil Blam. Did anyone see him in the crowd in the last scene?? ;)
I’m having a very hard time believing Sayid is completely evil. Unlocke asking Sayid, “What if I told you that you could have anything you want?” reminded me of Satan’s Temptation of Christ in the Wilderness. Just like Christ, Sayid refused that temptation, and I keep seeing the Christ-image of Sayid when they carried him out of the Temple pool. Sayid “killing” Unlocke and killing Keamy and his henchmen in the AU reminded me of Christ driving out the moneychangers from the Temple. Sayid seems to use violence, not for himself, but for others to right a wrong done to them.
Word Verf: alowe : Hello, Goodbye, Hawaii.
@ Fred on the haiku thread said:
“Each time something red
appears we know a link has
been made between worlds.”
Perhaps that’s why Hurley is wearing a red shirt. He’s the link between the worlds of the living & dead? He seems so calm and accepting of having Jacob pop up “whenever he feels like it,” accepting Jacob’s instructions and doing his bidding. And notice how Jacob always calls him Hugo, not his nickname “Hurley”.
Word Verf: gaicu : The 17-syllable poetry by men.
Who here thinks Keamy in the Flash-sidways may not really be dead? I just keep remembering how in season 4 (or was it 5), one second he's there, dead as dead can be, and the next second he's headed down the elevator shaft of the Orchid Station. He always reminded me of a terminator. So big, stalking, scary and un-killable.
Very sad Dogen is gone. Glad that Lennon is gone. Hoping Cindy bites the dust soon as well.
Thinking back to Claire and why she's not sure where Aaron is...I don't think she remembers much from the moment she was mortally wounded in the newOtherton explosion and being revived later, by smokie or his little smokies that infect people. Just like young Ben asked "What happened?" and Sayid doing the same. This only helps in NotLocke's ability to manipulate and take yet another soul/pawn to his side.
So Sayid tells Locke that the thing he wants most died in his arms.
Looking into Sayid's eyes, I thought about Nadia.
But looking into Locke's eyes, I thought about Shannon.
I think it would be a really neat mind-fuck if Locke fulfilled his promise to Sayid that way.
At the very least, it would force Sayid to confront his loose concept of "one true love" (I count Nadia, Shannon, the Euro-chick, & Ileana).
Great job today Nik,
Just a few quick thoughts:
-Did anyone else think of "Silence of the Lambs" when Claire was looking down at Claire in that pit, "it puts the lotion in the basket or it gets the hose again."
-The Sayid/Dogen fight was the best since Sawyer/Jack.
-In the AU, Dogen's son is still alive, does this mean that Jacob caused his son's death in our reality in order to get him to the island? In the AU Jacob, and the island itself, have played no part in their lives...and now Dogen's lived long enough to complement Jack and his son.
-Keamy as a simple goon/thug/hitman didn't really work for me, that's kind like reducing Sayid to being a bouncer at a club.
-I had the same "demntors" though when Smokey raced over Kate, I actually yelled out "Expecto Patronum Kate, think happy thoughts"
-Why didn't Claire try to kill Kate once everything settled down a bit?? She was really upset with her for taking Aaron off the island and she already told Jin she would kill her if this was true. Seemed a little odd to just forget about that and just walk out with her and Sayid to meet the rest of their Dark Army (The DA, another Potter reference). Maybe Kate is more important to their darkness crusade than we know (thus she can't kill her just yet).
-Is Jungle Hair Claire in any way related to Bushy Haired Hermione (last one I promise)?
Thanks guys, great episode
Oho! I have returned from my midwinter hibernation and Yoo-Hoo / bone-marrow regenerative infusion drip, eh. And the Joan Crawford woman is in heat! She flaunts her desire to spawn with this Sayid character despite professing matrimony on her "blog" and openly lusting after my comments. Zombie harlot! I say again, Zombie harlot! For that is what she is, eh. Do not let her attempt to make light of my revelation of her true nature by appropriating as her "Internet icon" the photographic evidence fool you, lemmings of the Ms. Nikki Stafford. Has this Sayid not died and returned to life? Has Joan Crawfish not herself perished at the hands of the Greeks' gift of living porcelain to the State of Massachusetts with you lot as witnesses? I hope the trollop is exquisitely happy with her imaginary boyfriend, and yes, that is the sarcasm, eh.
...
Verification word: I say "zombie" you say "harlot"... Zombie! Harlot! Zombie! Harlot! Eh.
I don't have time right now to read all the comments, but I will. I just want to throw out there now that as much as I did enjoy this episode, I'm very frustrated this season with how much air time they are really giving us. I've mentioned this before many times...and I thought it was just me wishing for more LOST...but last night I was out while it was on. I got home at 9:50 and it was recording on my DVR. I started watching it around 9:55 and when I was done (forwarding commercials of course), it was not even 10:28. Why are they cutting so much air time? I feel like they're doing it to stretch out the season, but do they really need to do that? I mean there's SO much to answer, you would think they'd want every minute they could scrounge!?!
Anyway, that's my morning rant. I will read all comments and post later on.
Excellent recap Nikki, as usual!
Jungle Hair Claire TM???? Do I need to pay you royalties for the use of the name or are you planning on using it for yourself, Jungle Hair Nik? LOL
Loved the episode. I love how the two factions are dividing themselves, its similar to Jack and Locke and their camps in the fourth season and now its happening again.
Sayid's look at the end reminded me of Unlocke's look after he killed Bram as Smokey...very creepy! I was very touched when flashsideways Sayid told Nadia he doesn't deserve her. In typical old Lost episodes, that kind of self revelation means your death!
I still don't exactly get why JHClaire would have such animosity towards Kate for taking Aaron. Its not like she's going to leave the baby behind in the jungle to fend for itself!
Keamy looks even creepier in the flashsideways. Jin must owe money to the shark, probably the money he got confiscated at security in the premier? I totally gasped when saw Jin in the fridge! Wouldn't it be interesting if Jin and Sun ended up on opposite teams? That would be quite the tragic end for them, because one of them will probably die.
I for one am glad Dogen and Lennon are dead, they are king and prince of double speak, they never gave us any direct answers other than the people outside the temple are "evil incarnate"...Um hello, more useful information please??? LOL
Are we allowed to talk about the trailers for next week? Not to spoil here but the info about Ben is quite disconcerting next week.
Great recap Nikki. I am getting more and more excited with each episode. Only 10 more to go...sigh...
@JS: I think for Smokey to be free, "every living thing" on the island must die. And he can kill everything, except the candidates.
JS, I like that theory, but events so far have me leaning in a different direction - I think he wants to kill every living thing on the Island out of a deep sense of resentment, rather than fulfilling a 'requirement', for lack of a better word. The Island is where he's been imprisoned (unjustly to his mind, no doubt), and so he's exacting his revenge by destroying everything/one on the Island. And now that I think about it, with Jacob done away with, I'm surprised that he'd play by the 'rules' anymore. I mean, without his jailer/nemesis around to enforce the rules, why not just kill the candidates? Sure, it would make for less interesting TV (manipulation is fun!), but without the 'Jacob barrier' I thought he might just unleash some Smokey whoop ass on everyone, including the candidates.
What I'm really interested in, though, is Smokey/Unlocke's backstory, how he got there, who the hell he really is, and why he was trapped on the Island. Man, I really hope they address that!
Hello everyone!
I'm ready to go and there are 84 comments already. Ai-yi-yi (I've been saying that a LOT since getting back from Mexico!)
Sonshine: It really felt like there was some major significance to that baseball. Is it possible it's something more than just a connection to his son? Something Jacob gave him? Like a key or protective thing or something?
I really felt like that, too. He holds it and protects it. I felt like it was something like a genie bottle and it had his soul in it, or his son's soul. It just seemed very important.
And another thing I forgot to ask in my main write-up: Why did Jacob choose Dogen?
Blam: Sarah Palin should get one of those mirror contraptions for her backyard. "I can see Russia from my house. No, really! Also Minnesota, Japan, the country of Africa... You know, all of 'em, any of 'em."
LOL!!! "And I can see other TIMElines! See? In this timeline, I'm... ok, I'm just useless, but in this other one I'm... ok, I'm useless in that one but check out THIS one where I'm... oh dear."
Before I get through all of the comments already here....
Did anyone else feel a sense of sadness at the end of this episode? Although we Lost-fans are used to being in the dark when it comes to the grand mysteries of the island, I've always felt a connection to the characters. Watching Jungle-Claire, FLocke, and Evil Sayid walking off just made me feel really sad that I have no idea who exactly these people are and what their underlying motivations/alliances are...
*tear*
redeem: Excellent post on the Revelations passages. I've actually been doing reading all week on the biblical apocalypse and Revelations, especially since Hurley stopped at the omega sign last week (which would indicate the last, or end). So these are awesome, thanks!
Dave: I've been thinking lately about the Sandman story arc where Lucifer decides he wants to leave hell and sets all the souls free, and God sends down a couple of other angels to deal with it all. I'm not sure how that ties into anything but it has been crossing my mind lately.
Oh man, if they make an explicit Sandman reference I will be leaping for joy! I LOVE that series.
Lisa(until further notice): I'm pretty sure Sawyer and Jin are intact, although I don't know why. I just have a feeling. And where is Richard? He wasn't with Frank, Ilana, Ben or Sun.
I agree with you that I think they're OK, but I'm wondering what Unlocke is doing with them? Richard was also taken away (remember when he got a one-way ticket on the Smokey train?) and he was last seen with him, and then running away when Sawyer was standing there. So Richard is no doubt far, far away and hiding somewhere. He probably got near the Temple, found out Smokey was eyeing it, and kept running.
Benny: Good to have you back! (Same goes for Blam and humanebean! Wow, we ALL we AWOL last week, didn't we?)
And OK, can we stop calling Locke something weird. He's Locke he appears as Locke and represents what Locke did in past season. Even though it may not be the identical personality who arrived on the island the first time, it's Locke. Just as the writers have asked to refer to him as Locke!
I agree that it's easier to call him Locke (I slip and call him that every once in a while) but because I LOVED the character of John Locke so much, and I believe that a person is who they are on the inside, not on the out, I just can't bring myself to believe that is John Locke in any way. The vulnerability, gullibility, hopefulness... it's all gone. Another entity is using his body, so to me, that's not John Locke, it's whatever else is trying to use his body to get what he wants and needs. So I can't do it... I WANT to, but I just can't. ;)
Kate being with Locke's group. I think that he realizes she will be trouble. Claire and Sayid are following because of the darkness, the others are following by choice. Kate has been dragged along by Claire and wasn't given a choice to be around. He probably senses that in her.
I agree. If he's been watching her at all (and we know he has) he knows that Kate questions everyone and everything and never listens when she's told something she doesn't want to hear. She's never been a follower, which is what he needs right now.
Marebabe: I, too, was freaking out over the Alice in Wonderland commercials! I am SO excited to see that!! I think I'm going to try to get in this weekend. EEE!
JS: OK, so if FLocke is evil incarnate, then the only thing that can defeat him is….LOVE. How will that manifest??? His followers seem to be interested in love, but really, they are selfish. Are we counting on Jack to not be selfish? Rah roh.
At the end of my first Finding Lost book, at the end of S2, I suggested that maybe everything will come down to love... with Desmond's love for Penny being literally in the form of a key. I said it again in S3, in S4, and S5, and every time I say it, it sounds so hokey, but I truly believe that could be it.
Remember Xander talking Evil Willow off the cliff by telling her he loved her? It slays me every time, and I think it might be something they lead up to here...
Mike T: I've also thought about the conversation between Ben and Widmore and the whole, "I know who you are. I know WHAT you are." I assume he's referring to Ben being a candidate, and I've wondered if Alex's death did in fact break this no-killing-the-candidates rule.
OOh! I haven't seen anyone draw that comparison yet... excellent!! What a great theory for what they were talking about in that scene. Love it!
Did any of you see the ABC press release picture of the lost characters sitting at the "last supper"? In it, Locke is at the center like Jesus, and Judas sits third to the left. In that position is Sayid. Very interesting.
Nikki: Jungle Hair Claire is a trademark? How come?
To the cablevision customers: Cable is now trying to tell us that it is ABC that is going to drop Cablevision. At first I thought we could then just watch it on ABC.com. However, if cablevision drops ABC, I bet I cannot even watch lost on line. I am starting to panic as well. Grey's Anatomy, Flashforward,etc.
Blam: And I also have that Gordon Lightfoot song in my head now…
I don't. Well, I didn't. Thanks, Nik! Sundown, y' better take care, indeed.
LOL! Sorry about that, Blam (if any of you watched the Winter Olympics Closing Ceremonies, you'll know that I'm often VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT... and we say sore-y...) But you know, last night as I was falling asleep and had that song in my head, I started thinking of the lyrics and how it oddly fits:
Sundown, you better take care
If I find you've been creepin' down my back stairs...
Sometimes I think it's a sin
When I feel like I'm winning but I'm losing again
Isn't that how we all feel about Lost every week? (Also... Lightfoot is an evil Canadian!!)
Re: Jin. I believe it was Jin's restaurant that they used. He came to America with money, but also had to borrow money from Martin Keamy.
Jin and Sawyer stayed at Claire's camp per UnLocke's direction (my theory) and now Locke will bring them all back to that camp.
What about Rose and Bernard?
So Sayid tells Locke that the thing he wants most died in his arms.
Looking into Sayid's eyes, I thought about Nadia.
But looking into Locke's eyes, I thought about Shannon.
I thought that Sayid's response was odd if he meant a person - but not if he meant love itself. Every time he loves someone, she dies in his arms. And maybe it's that despair, that love will never be part of his life, that leads him open to Smokie.
I haven't had time to read all the posts, so apologies if this is a repeat theory:
What if the 2004 timeline is someone's "deal with the devil"? Sayid says Jacob drives a hard bargain because Dogen son is alive, but he can't see him. What if Sayid could be NEAR Nadia, but couldn't be WITH her? Whoever made the deal might have included the other losties desires along with there own.
Also, I think only candidates can be "claimed". I don't recall anyone else coming back to life who was not a candidate.
Tanyam
Nikki: When Smokey rolled over Kate I thought I saw and heard people screaming inside it.
Tanyam
It doesn't seem to me that Jacob actively manipulated Dogen so much as gave him a choice ... and offered to do something for him in return if he chose "correctly". By giving him the invitation to the Island, Jacob was providing Dogen with the opportunity for redemption. By protecting it's essence, he would somehow be making up for failing to protect his own son.
First thing I thought of when we learned of this last night was Ben telling Juliet that Jacob would cure her sister's cancer. Why this would be an opportunity for 'redemption' for Juliet at that point is unclear ... other than that she would somehow be 'healing' the Island's dark hold over pregnant women with her research and expertise.
It may seem rather cruel that Jacob would seemingly withhold his touch to save Dogen's son unless he chose to go to the Island - but he was perhaps giving Dogen what he most needed on both counts: saving his son's life and offering a shot at redeeming himself from his egregious and self-indulgent mistake.
Still, why did he choose Dogen as Temple Leader? And, what (other than Jacob's selection) made his so special that his mere presence at the Temple could keep Smokey out?
@ Benny:
I see you thought the same way about the candidates being taken over and all others dying. I should always read the posts before commenting. I promise never to post before reading again :-)
Tanyam
Oops! I just discovered that I've been referring to Sayid's brother as Omar, when in fact Omar is Keamy's aide and Sayid's brother is named Omer Sorry!
@Tanyam: All good! It shows that minds are connected!
Ok, 1 more Potter reference that came to me when I read JS's comment:
JS: OK, so if FLocke is evil incarnate, then the only thing that can defeat him is….LOVE. How will that manifest???
For those who haven't read the Harry Potter series, please do not continue.
At the end of Deathly Hallows, Harry sacrifices himself to finally defeat Lord Voldemort once he realizes that he is the final Horcrux. This "ultimate sacrifice", the same one his mother made to spare his life, is what finally defeats the Dark Lord (smokey) and ends the battle. Harry then has some deep conversation with Dumbledore (Jacob) to explain everything. Could Lost be heading down the same path?? Will one of the losties/listies have to make the decision to give their lives willingly to save the lives of all the others?
I'm betting Jack and Claire (Adam and Eve) because the Shephard name is somehow tainted and is causing all this crazines on the island? There have been 3 Shephards on the island and we still don't know how deeply involved Christian was with this whole thing.
Come to think of it, this whole "infection" thing is very similar to the "Imperio" curse in the Potter series. This is considered Dark Magic (similar to the dark infection overtaking the infected person) and gives the caster control over the other person. Now my head is spinning with other Potter parallels...
Back and refreshed! On to comments.
@Mark RY: I looked for Cindy, Zach and Emma in the final scene with no luck. Did anyone else spot them either with the UnLocke group, or dead?
I did not see them anywhere either.
@Fred Is the side-universe a product of Jacob?
Oh, I like that idea. Maybe it's a world he created to show...someone, the candidates, I dunno, what life without the island would be like. Or it's the world he created to house all the promises he made to people. "In this world, your son dies, but make this deal, and in this world, he'll live and you'll be happy together."
@Lisa (until further notice): Just like young Ben asked "What happened?" and Sayid doing the same. This only helps in NotLocke's ability to manipulate and take yet another soul/pawn to his side.
Good catch! If Claire did indeed die when the house blew up and was then claimed, a momentary lapse of memory could easily explain why she doesn't remember leaving Aaron and how FLocke was able to convince her the Others had her baby.
@Humanebean It may seem rather cruel that Jacob would seemingly withhold his touch to save Dogen's son unless he chose to go to the Island
It seems sacrifice is a big part of Jacob's schtick; he'll give you what you want, but you have to sacrifice something for it. Work for me, I'll save your son. But you won't be able to see him...I'll cure your sister, but you won't be with her, etc.
It seems kinda like a dick move, but then self-sacrifice has been an important part of many religions for centuries. So while Jacob doesn't seem to be an entirely beneficial deity (giving you what you want for no cost), I don't think it makes evil either.
Still, why did he choose Dogen as Temple Leader? And, what (other than Jacob's selection) made his so special that his mere presence at the Temple could keep Smokey out?
That's my big question right now too.
I find it interesting that the one character for whom the flashsideways isn't a total improvement (so far) is Sayid, considering that he (apparently) fully turned to the dark side in this episode.
Further evidence of reality bleed through? Sayid goes dark on the island, so his sideways counterpart is denied happiness?
@Zari: no, the temptation of Christ by Satan was better drawn in the episode "Dave". There Dave tells Hugo to throw himself off the cliff, and he will wake up in Santa Rosa. Just As Satan told Christ to throw himself off the cliff and his angels would save him from falling. (Now we suspect, Dave was really MiB using Hugo's memories to take up Dave's form, even though Dave was in Hugo's mind only).
A point that has not been made yet is Kate's dream, where Kate wakes to find Claire leaning over Aaron in Aaron's bedroom. Claire turns to Kate and tells her not to bring him back. It seems there are 2 forms of a being on the island. One is the soul of a human. I believe it was Claire's soul that came to Kate to warn her. This was preceded by the whispers (over the phone). The other Claire we see now, the dead-revived Claire (characterized by her black eyes in the pit). Her body would have no soul, but all the memories. She is a modern version of a zombie, or better yet, one of Dracula's victims, like Mina. (Would this make MiB as modern type Dracula)?
If there is a split in some characters between their soul and their body, then the word "claim" means claim the body and not the soul. So when we saw Christian in the mobisoide, it was his soul telling Vincent to wake Jack; but when we saw him tell Locke to turn the wheel it was his dead/claimed body. (Now, I know the smoke monster can also assume forms of people, but that's an individual power of Smokie).
So if this is the case, then Jacob pursues souls, while MiB claims dead bodies for his own ends. One is light (soul), and one black (dead body); one is associated with fire (Jacob), one with earth (MiB); rain is associated with (MiB/Smokie), while water (Jacob).
Love your Lost recaps.
In your write up you mentioned Kate's name not being in the cave and not crossed out in the lighthouse. I listened to this interview on IGN yesterday and Carlton Cuse has a bit of info to the contrary.
Kate's name is in the cave and it IS crossed out. Very interesting. If this is true then can we guess that the cave is Smocke's list... hence his apparent disdain for Kate and the Lighthouse list is exclusive to Jacob?
here is the link
http://tv.ign.com/dor/objects/821880/lost/videos/lost_paleyfest_ints_030110.html
108 comments... Sheesh!
Joshua: Linus van Pelt? I love it.
Lesley C: Gotta say the Lennon character seemed a bit superfluous in this season
Did we ever even hear his name used in-story, or is it just from IMDB and producer's comments?
VW: consoler — The person standing right over there, there.
As usual, what a great read! Nikki and all of you = the best ever! Forgive me if I parrot someone's comments without proper acknowledgment!
Please stop saying 'that man', 'he', 'that thing' - freakin tell us Flocke's name already!!
I just knew it was gonna be Sawyer in the frig in the restaurant. It would fit for him to be mixed up in a group like Keamy's - didn't see Jin coming but he makes sense too!
I have grown to really like Dogen and loved hearing his tragic backstory and seeing him happy in the new world! I feel he is sadly for-real dead!
There was a more insignificant question of the deal with Dogen's baseball - now we know!
Please reunite Miles and Hurley soon!! (Murley?)
Does Cindy serve a purpose other than being the caretaker of the island's only kids? At least her McDonald's commercial is getting a lot of play.
Clarie's sweet voice + haunting music = chilling.
Also seems the question of whether or not Claire was really dead has been answered, too, since she is infected like once-dead Sayid. It's cool that death enables the bad seed to be sown then a word from the 'master' causes it to bloom!
Why didn't Sayid kill Ben? And Ben looked absolutely terrified of Sayid.
Poor Sayid - like you said, Nikki, his life is just a big tug-o-war between his evil past and wanting to be a good person. I want him to find that peace but let's face it, he's at his best as a badass! I can see him fighting for the enemy then seeing the light as he's dying. In the new universe maybe he will be redeemed and get the girl. He seemed more interested in the broken vase than his brother's condition - will this possible wishful thinking be granted? Maybe Uncle Sayid will become Dad? maybe I'm romanticing?
More on Sayid - @Brandon - "They can say that someone will die, but to show mainly Ben and say that "the man who has caused so many deaths will meet his demise" is pretty damn stupid on a promotional basis." Could this be Sayid?
NIkki, you mentioned the look of confusion Flocke gave Kate. I loved that and the look of wtf Kate gave a dead Locke! But her mission of finding Claire has been achieved so I guess Kate's going where Claire's going.
So we know Sawyer is OK and I'm assuming he's with Jin. Is he babysitting Jin and his boar-trap infected leg or are they off looking for Sun? Sawyer seems to see thru Flocke's ruse so has he clued Jin in and are the two of them doing their own recruiting?
Where were Richard and the Beachy Others?
In my area a Sonic commercial was inexplicably inserted between the scenes of Keamy's back frying the eggs and his introduction to Sayid! Panic! Several unsavory words! But I don't guess I missed too much!
@Jenn - "Who was creeped out when Claire told Kate that she's not the one that needed saving? I thought as soon as she delivered that line she was going to jump up and judo-chop Kate!" OMG, me too! I was kinda disappointed nothing happened there! Yet!
@JS - Silence of the Lambs - Yes!
Paul Escobar: Your point about the differences in the timelines is taken, but I'm not 100% sure that Jack didn't/doesn't have a son in the familiar universe. He might just not know about it. As I wrote on my blog:
"Maybe Jack's Nick Jonas doppelgänger spawn actually exists in the original timeline too. His relationship with David's mom may not have lasted thanks to Jacob or the Island's interference, and Jack might have never known she was with child; for that matter, she might not have, either, until after they broke up. Mystery Momma could've raised David alone or given him up for adoption, and either her last name or that of his adoptive or foster family could be Wallace. After seeing a John Locke, a Rousseau, a Hawking, a Faraday, a C.S. Lewis, and so on, would it be so strange to encounter a David (Foster) Wallace?"
I ended up discovering that someone else was Wallace, though.
VW: ruplize — To model oneself after RuPaul.
@Blam Did we ever even hear his name used in-story, or is it just from IMDB and producer's comments?
You know, I don't think we did. Now, we probably won't.
Adam & Eve
- do we know for sure that they're a man & a woman? If not, maybe they are the original Jacob & Esau's bodies? The black & white stones in their pockets would seem to hint at that.
The Baseball
- the writers made a big deal out of highlighting the baseball hitting the floor at the end of the kickass ninja scence with Sayid & Dogen. Why highlight it? Maybe it was some sort of talisman, and when it hit the floor (maybe broke something inside?), Dogen's protection was gone?
Smokey/Locke as Satan, the fallen star
- anyone looking for more Biblical information should read the first few chapters of Genesis (in addition to Revelation). Satan fell from heaven because he wanted to be as powerful as God. I think that Smokey's problem with Jacob boils down to the same thing - jealousy. Jacob seems to be more powerful than Smokey (Jacob can leave the Island, for one thing). So maybe Smokey's a fallen star because he wants to be more powerful than Jacob.
One more note about catching a fallen star - no way would I want to catch Smokey and put him in my pocket and save hime for a rainy day!
JS: Did anyone else think of the Silence of the Lambs when we see Claire in that stone pit?
You know what I thought of? Daniel in the lion's Den... I have no idea why, since she seemed happy and safe. But man, now that you say Silence of the Lambs that's ALL I'm thinking!!! Maybe they could lower down her squirrel baby in a basket!
Donna S.: OH NO!!! Poor you, that's terrible... are you in the US? Can you watch it streaming on ABC? If you're in Canada I think you can watch the streamed version on CTV. I'm so sorry!
studiorose: Joan Crawford, don't forget that Hot Jungle Love with Sayid is always fatal.
LOL!! Something tells me our Joan is willing to take her chances!
Mark RY: I looked for Cindy, Zach and Emma in the final scene with no luck. Did anyone else spot them either with the UnLocke group, or dead?
As the camera flashed to UnLocke's expression when he saw Kate, there's a little boy standing behind him, so presumably that's Zach and the rest of the crew was in the crowd. I hope.
Fred: As for Sayid and Nadia, if Sayid's brother lives, then it's likely Sayid will leave for Toronto.
YES!!!
Ilana knew exactly where to look and what to look ofr onn the wall. Is she connected somehow to Jacob?
In "The Incident" Jacob actually recruited Ilana to help him, so she's definitely connected to him, it's just not clear how. She knows a LOT about the island, and I'd really, REALLY like some answers about her pronto.
When Claire was in the pit, her eyes looked completely black. A sign of being claimed? Probably. But it also reminded me of the Season 1 dream she had, where Locke had white and black eyes.
Great point! I thought her eyes looked eerily black as well!
Joshua: Something I forgot to mention when I posted last night was what I thought of as the biggest revelation of the night, in terms of mythology: that the ash, whatever it is, doesn't do squat.
Excellent point. I wonder if that's why Ilana picked up the ash of Jacob's body... perhaps if it's mixed with the other ash, it acts as a new barrier that actually WILL keep him out?
And remember how Smokey couldn't cross the sonic fence? Why don't they just all go in there and turn it on? Hm.
asiancolossus: Jungle Hair Claire TM???? Do I need to pay you royalties for the use of the name or are you planning on using it for yourself, Jungle Hair Nik? LOL
Oh man, you should have seen me in Mexico. I really WAS Jungle Hair Nik! I swear I'd be taking a flatiron to my hair going, "Come on... look nice. There we go. It looks nice." And I'd step outside and the island frizz would be instant. It looked like Hurley's hair in Season 1. I'd just stand there going, "Oh come ON, seriously?!" Humidity and I don't mix.
The royalties have to go to humanebean, by the way... he's the guy who trademarked it! :)
@Joshua/Nikki: To the point of the Ash.
When Locke is talking to Claire, they are standing by the ash line and he tells her that if he could do it himself he would. Since she asked Dogen to go outside and Dogen refuses by fear of being killed, this would suggest that he is protected within the Temple/ash line.
Only after Sayid kills Dogen does Smokey appear and kill everyone. I would suggest Locke asked Sayid to kill him at sundown to let him in! There must have been a stricter restriction to the ash line than just an ash line. Something connected to Dogen.
Lennon's comments about now having let him in when he sees Dogen in the pool seems to suggest so!
Blam: Oops! I just discovered that I've been referring to Sayid's brother as Omar, when in fact Omar is Keamy's aide and Sayid's brother is named Omer Sorry!
I know, eh? I mean, THAT was a little confusing... I was driving somewhere this morning and passed some meat shop called "Omer's" and thought, "Am I being haunted by this name for some reason?!"
I think Claire could easily have made a hole in the line of ash around the Temple for Smokey to get through.
Tanyam
I really thought that "evil incarnate" would be some sort of an anagram since Claire's name can fit in there. The only thing that came up is Native Claire OR Claire Native.
Doesn't make sense to me...maybe someone else will have better luck.
I agree about the ash. Lennon says that Dogen was the only thing keeping FLocke out - so what was the point of the ash? Strange.
Nikki: In "The Incident" Jacob actually recruited Ilana to help him, so she's definitely connected to him, it's just not clear how.
She was covered in bandages in that flashback. Now that we know from Dogen that Jacob makes explicit bargains, I think he told her that if she would come work on his behalf he would fix her up to look like Zuleikha Robinson. "Who's that?" "Think a more zaftig Norah Jones." "Sign me up!"
A friend just came up with a theory that I had to post......all credit to Kelly............What was Sayid's real motivation for killing Dogen? Could Flocke have told Sayid that Dogen was the drunk driver responsible for killing Nadia???
@Nikki Humidity and I don't mix.
Better, or worse than, Monica's Weird Al hair on Friends when she was in Barbados (that's my point of reference for humidity-frizzed hair, at least)? :)
@Blam "Who's that?" "Think a more zaftig Norah Jones." "Sign me up!"
I love it!
Hey guys!
Globe chat it about to begin: go here to get involved!:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/television/lost/lost-the-lost-club-talks-about-episode-5/article1488001/
Someone may have pointed this out already, but....there is a photo behind Nadia in her kitchen that reminds me of a photo on the staircase that Miles walked down (one where the pictures/frames changed from when he went up the stairs). It looked to me like a black boy-not Walt, I don't think. Check it out and see if I am just reading into it or what. Thanks! As always, love your recaps and can't wait to read them!
In regards to the biblical references and themes that run through out LOST. The one that will be very important is John 15:13 - "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." I can definitely see this playing out in this final season.
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but it has been bothering me ever since the reveal of who Smokey really is.
Did Ben summon Smokey when Keamy and his men were coming to attack otherville? That seems to be an inconsistency in my mind, or it could be something yet to be revealed.
@Anonymous: How do you see it as an inconsistency though? I'm not sure that it really is.
Benny,
Maybe inconsistency isn't the right word. The more I think about it it does make sense that Smokey would want to protect Ben, since in the long con he needed Ben to do the deed, but it just seemed odd to me that Ben could bring it out whenever he needed it.
Anonymous and Benny: Someone brought this up during the Globe chat, and it made me think: What if that was part of Smokey's imprisonment? That he could be summoned and could only come out when that happened? So he was summoned by Jacob to destroy certain people. He was summoned by Ben to get rid of Keamy's men. But with Jacob's death, now he can come out and roam wherever he wants.
@Anonymous: Well, maybe it helps to look at it this way: He may not have summoned it, but rather signaled it that the security system was down.
One would think that Smokey was keeping a close eye on Ben and Locke and was well aware they were in the compound.
But I definitely understand what you're saying. It seems odd, like a lot of Lost things. I like to view a lot of the show's unaswered questions as the viewer's own take on it.
Nikki,
That's a great point. They did say that now that Jacob is dead MIB is free. It appears there are still people he can't confront himself, but once they are out of the way he free to do what he wants. That appears to be kill everyone.
Zombie harlot! I say again, Zombie harlot!
I hope the trollop is exquisitely happy with her imaginary boyfriend, and yes, that is the sarcasm, eh.
AAaahahahaah! Oh, Evil Blam - you show up out of nowhere and leave this nice long post just for little old me? I think I finally got my jealous rage I was hoping for from your comments :D
I agree with whoever said that Jin was probably delivering the watch to Keamy for Sun's dad. If Sun and Jin are not married (Sun was called by her maiden name at airport customs) maybe this is the way that Sun's dad gets rid of an unacceptable suitor, Keamy style.
So very Hamlet. "Kill the bearers of this note".
As for the royalties on Jungle Hair Claire™: it's a very complicated legal arrangement. Any time you laugh at the thought of it, or share it with someone else who laughs, you have to give .25¢ to the charity of your choice. Nothing specific, just next time you pass somebody with a can, drop the coin in. cha-ching!
Also, concerning the Claire not remembering leaving her baby deal. If she, like Sayid, was dead for a few hours before coming to she could have been moved from the baby. Her last recollection would be going to bed or whatever and next thing she wakes up she is somewhere else and the baby is gone. Considering what happened with the others when she was pregnant she would naturally think that they kidnapped the baby and Locke-a-like could easily feed on this misconception.
@Rad Re: Keamy - considering how "powerful" and mean Keamy was in the original timeline, him as a two bit punk loan shark really diminished him. But then I guess everyone is diminished a bit in the AU, except for Sayid, who is still bad ass.
@Batcabbage - We definitely need the Smokey back story. I understand your theory, but the one hole is the unexplained blond kid who says "you can't kill him" so apparently, even without Jacob, the rules to apply. I definitely buy into the resentment and revenge, but even so, why bother recruiting once Jacob is dead. I'd like to think there is a larger all encompassing purpose and theory. How do I get into that writer's room??
@Fred - yes, the claiming of the body, being separate from the activities of the soul makes a lot of sense. This works for Claire, and for Christian. The only other I can think of is perhaps Yemi, it does seem he has two different sides - one judging, one asking for belief, but I am not entirely sure on that one.
@Tiasabita - Murley - LOL!
Re: Fight between Dogen and Sayid
I think I am going to have to watch that again, because the whole time I was thinking, where is Sayid's BAMFness? He was running around and throwing things, not just executing ninja moves. Which is such a contrast to his cold hearted and efficient killing in the penultimate scene from the temple.
@JS - The line FLocke uses - if you could have anything you wanted - is a typical SATAN line.
True, but didn't Jacob promise Dogen some Devil type things too? Being with his dead son again?
@JS -I think I am going to have to watch that again, because the whole time I was thinking, where is Sayid's BAMFness?
I can't even talk about it!
That was the most upsetting scene in Lost. Ever. He did get a few good hits in...that's something...he's totally awesome, you guys!
Ilana pushes on that same omega symbol on the wall that Hurley was staring at last week… clearly it’s associated with Jacob in some way, but why?
That symbol is a hieroglyph called a Shen ring and represents eternity and protection.
@Joan True, but didn't Jacob promise Dogen some Devil type things too? Being with his dead son again?
I understood it to mean that Jacob would save Dogen's son, as opposed to resurrecting him.
That said, as I mentioned before, there seems to be a component of sacrifice to Jacob's deals. I'll save your son, but you'll never get to see him again. Yeah, you're giving up a lot, but you're getting a lot in return. Even exchange.
Somehow that feels more...genuine (More honest? less devilish? I dunno) than Smokey, who seems to be giving out the easy answers. Just go kill this guy, and I'll give you your hearts desire. The two sides of the deal don't seem even, a minor task for a major reward, and that makes me suspicious of Smokey's deals, like it's too good to be true.
And I still maintain that why Jacob may not be a shining Knight of Goodness, there's no way Smokey is the misunderstood good guy. No good guy would kill all those Others as indiscriminately as he did.
@JS: I think in Yemi's case that was just the smoke monster assuming Yemi's form, not a case of claiming. That is because Eko burned Yemi's body in the plane. But later we do know that Yemi's body went missing. But if Smokie can read minds, he can also collect enough information to impersonate someone. So I think we'll see Yemi is a separate case, like Locke's appearance by MiB.
@Teebore - No good guy would kill all those Others as indiscriminately as he did.
He wasn't doing it indiscriminately exactly - he did give them an option to follow him or not. To "listen".
God damns everyone who doesn't follow Him as well. At least according to the Bible (not what I believe but what it says).
Not that I think MiB is good...I just think he is no worse than Jacob the Liar there.
VW: handsomy
Aww, Blogger has a crush on Teebore :D
Aww, Blogger has a crush on Teebore :D
Thanks Blogger! :D
He wasn't doing it indiscriminately exactly - he did give them an option to follow him or not.
"Join me or die" sounds an awful lot like the Emperor in Return of the Jedi to me, biblical connotations or not.
Not that I think MiB is good...I just think he is no worse than Jacob the Liar there.
I'll grant you that, though. It could very well be that they're both just opposite sides of a bad coin.
I'm still holding out hope that Jacob is, at least, if not good, the lesser of two evils, but that's just me.
"Join me or die" sounds an awful lot like the Emperor in Return of the Jedi
LOL!
Fantastic episode, I was gripped from the first minute to the last. I completely forget about getting answers when the drama is this brilliant. Oh, and Michael Giacchino is a genius.
Everybody is bringing their acting A game to the table this series, even Clare hasn't said "Okay" yet. Which is like, a miracle. God I find the way she says that incredibily annoying.
Anyone else think the fact that they haven't disclosed the name of the Smokey yet is because they are going to hit us with some gut-wrenching twist like he's actually a time travelling Lostie like Michael or something?
POTENTIAL SPOILER POTENTIAL SPOILER POTENTIAL SPOILER POTENTIAL SPOILER POTENTIAL SPOILER - don't read below
The whole "what happens to Ben next week" debate is a good example of why I never watch those "on...next week" snippets for any show I'm really into. They either give stuff away or get you all worked up unnecessarily, imo. I might be being a pain in the arse here, but can I ask that if someone is about to discuss one of those teasers, they put "Potential Spoiler" beforehand? Ta! Forgive me if you think I'm talking nonsense though.
Another random thought in the vein of mold breaking - every episode has shown the featured character looking into a mirror and either almost remembering something or having some kind of recognition experience. Sayid did not. NO RFELECTION, i.e. - he's undead AND he hasn't learned anything in his sideways world. All the previous characters have some sort of mini redemption in their sideways universe, but, as Nikki said, Sayid is doomed to play out the same story where ever he is. The lack of mirrors and reflection is what got me. Maybe we won't be seeing any more mirrors now that the light house mirrors have been smashed. (I'm still upset about that.)
I don't know if it's been said (soooo many comments on this site, lol), but did anyone notice that Sayid went from the "I'm so evil, I deserve to die" line or reasoning (an indication that he is not actually evil, since evil people think they are actually good- a running theme on Lost too)to "hey, relax, trust me - I'm a good guy". Two weeks in a row he said it, and it's creepy when he says it.
If that is not a clear indication that he has somehow transformed into something "not kosher" - I don't think such a sign exists.
Also, are the "flash sideways" really showing us a world with no plane crash, or a world free from Jacob's interests, since he seems to not exist in this reality? If he is really a "good" guy, some bad things will happen to the passengers of 815 if he is not there to influence and guide them. If this world is actually better for our subjects, then would that be an indication that Jacob isn't really on the up and up?
Before I read all the comments, I just have to say, I was having a snack, re-watching the episode, and I just stared at my "black and white" (cookie). (For all you non-New Yorkers out there, they are a special snack for special times, like a LOST episode.)
As I zipped through the commericials, I realized that my "black and white" is similiar to LOST! One side is not technically "good" or "evil", just co-existing but on two different sides. What if the LOST creators were Seinfeld fans?
"Look to the Cookie!"
Re:Sundown, I think Kate will do a disappearing act the minute she sees what group she has chosen to travel with. She sees the venom in Claire's eyes and knows that something not-good is bound to happen. UNLESS... Kate is really where she is supposed to be. She is inherently not good. She wants to be, like Sayid, but he can't follow through with the good either. It is like temptation. Someone or something can tempt you to be bad, but you have to "turn the other cheek". What did Jacob always say, "It is your choice". Sayid shouldn't have tortured and Kate shouldn't have killed. I am trying to figure out what Claire did that was so bad? Maybe abandoning your child in a jungle and then blaming the second person to pick it up. Sawyer was first!)
Re: Sayid.
I guess this would be the argument for destiny over free will. Whatever Sayid intends for his life, he still winds up as a killer for someone else, in multiple times and universes. Ironic that none of these killings are for his own reasons, but are for Ben, MIB, his brother, etc. Which makes him a cold-blooded mercenary, something like Martin Keamy, except that Sayid usually has rationalized why he is doing these deeds and Keamy is doing his crimes for profit.
And a case can be made that Sayid himself is Evil Incarnate. What if someone said to all of you reading this that you could have someone come back from dying, someone extremely important to you such as a child, spouse, parent? But in return all of the other people on this blog would be killed? Wouldn't you think that would be a tad selfish, let alone psychopathic? But that is exactly what MIB/Flocke has offered Sayid (with a nasty smirk as Sayid's eyes begin to gleam). Just go in and announce that everyone who doesn't go along with your program will die. Then you get your way. Wonderful.
This further reminds me of all of the stories that I have heard over the years where the devil makes a deal with someone and then tricks him in the end, getting his soul and giving up nothing. That would make a case for Flocke to be Satan.
A few observations on a great episode.
i) I love how Sayid's story has played out. Now matter how much we like him, and how heroic he has been through the series, he inevitably chooses killing or violence as a means to an end. Ben saw it and used Sayid for his owns ends and Dogen sees it too.
ii) Interesting that Dogen believes UnLocke intends 'to kill every living thing on this island', the exact phrase Ben uses when describing the feighter mercenaries. How does Widmore fit it to this and what side is he on? Did he sell his soul to The Man In Black ?
iii) Maybe I missed this, but were UnLocke's followers The Others who stayed at The Temple and were infected after being mowed down by Smokie or are they some kind of army that he has been recruiting through the years eg. like Rousseau's team?
Lots of great comments and ideas here! Just wanted to share one detail I just learned: there are 108 stitches on a baseball. Clearly that is the key to the whole show! :P
@Stan This further reminds me of all of the stories that I have heard over the years where the devil makes a deal with someone and then tricks him in the end, getting his soul and giving up nothing.
As The Simpsons have taught us, be careful what you wish for.
"The turkey's a little dry. THE TURKEY'S A LITTLE DRY!!"
@The Shout were UnLocke's followers The Others who stayed at The Temple and were infected after being mowed down by Smokie or are they some kind of army that he has been recruiting through the years eg. like Rousseau's team?
My understanding is that Smokey's followers were the Others who willing left the temple before sundown to join him rather than die.
Did anyone else wonder if Sayid killed those people (Dogen and his imp)for Locke as part of the 'deal', or if he did it on his own? We know Dogen had to die for Locke to get in (which was not hard to guess going in), but was Sayid acting out for Locke or was he following his instincts (anger and revenge)and killed dogen as a matter of fate?
This Sayid is not the same as the one we saw until he died. He is enjoying himself, and the look on his face when he said it was too late would have been my favorite if it hadn't been followed by Ben's.
Joshua: I think you're right about the shen ring. I paused the action and though it does look like it could be an omega there is a difference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_ring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega
http://www.recoveredscience.com/const104shenring1.htm
http://www.vivart.co.uk/hieroglyphs_s.htm
The reason I believe this could be a shen ring is the fact that the smoke monster travelled right by it and an omega would certainly be used as a label but a shen ring may be an example of the cryptographic hieroglyphic writing referenced (magic writing for protection used in temples and tombs) in the Lost season 5 DVD extras.
Note: just seeing these 'Flocke' references only remind me of "Flock of Seagulls" and I Ran; and it doesn't help in enforcing the evilness of Locke, makes him seem more ridiculous.
Anyone else?
@Teebore: The turkey IS dry.
@lowercase dan: they are showing us a world with no plane crash indeed. That's one of the main elements to take when considering the story of the show. Lost started with 815 crashing and was the catalyst for the show existing. Yet more revolves around it.
But the reason for the absence of a plane crash could possibly be the climax of the show and entails much more than just 815 not crashing but rather all those changes we've seen so far.
A lot of the stories we've in the first 6 hours have opposed the flashbacks we saw through 3.5 seasons; little by little we are shown that more has changed than just 815 not crashing.
As for Jacob's part in this. Ponder the possibility that the opposite happens. Jacob is successful and removes his nemesis from the equation/history. All the hurt that has struck the characters never happens in their lives.
So far we should believe that the lives we currently see are for the better, that does not explain why and what it represents. We will only know that in 10 weeks!
@Rufus:
That article link from recoveredscience.com is EXCELLENT. Seems the Egyptians used the Shen ring to symbolize many different ideas, including the beginning of numbers, the flow of time itself, and any number of other concepts that play directly into the themes of LOST in a huge way. Anyone who is even slightly interested in this should really take a look...
Thanks for pointing it out!
Why is Hurley with Jacob. I think it's because Hurley was willing to give up all his good fortune (lotto winnings) and only wanted his father back. He did get him back, but as he said to Miles, even if he never sees his dad again he'll accept they had some time together.
Sayid and Claire want impossible things. They act not out of self-less motives, but selfish motives. This is why MiB can so easily get them to join his side. This may be why I have poor hope for Sawyer, who has lost someone dear to him. MiB can manipulate that to his ends.
So will Jack become like Hurley, will he let go of his baggage. He sort of did when he met Kate in the woods and asked her to join him. Not this time. It wasn't just Kate not joining them, but Jack finally letting go, as his father told him so many times. Maybe Kate will finally let go, realizing Claire is not her destiny, and willingly join Jack and Hurley.
A Tribute
(Toga = Dogen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrwaE93090I
@Nikki - I have to live in extreme humidity for 8 months of the year - luckily it gives my fine hair a bit of body and I'm not of the generation who are obsessed with straightening their hair, I quite like it curly.
When Miles made that comment about Jungle Hair Claire being 'still hot' I saw another ship on the horizon! A lot of us thought Punk Miles and Gothic Claire would be a good match didn't we?
CBP68: Before I read all the comments, I just have to say, I was having a snack, re-watching the episode, and I just stared at my "black and white" (cookie).
I'm not a New Yorker, but I'm a fan of Seinfeld... same cookie? Is this the cookie that broke his 16-year no-vomit streak? Hahahahaha
@JS: the one hole is the unexplained blond kid who says "you can't kill him".
Of course! I completely forgot about the blond kid. Thanks for reminding me, JS.
I spotted Kevin Durand's name on the opening credits so was watching out for him. Wish he'd have got a meaner role though.
There are still so many back stories we want to see and yet this is the side story season so will we ever get to see what bought some of the characters to the island.
Still hoping for more of a story on -
Richard, Iliana, MiB and Jacob himself.
@JS TOGA TRIBUTE!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!
I have to go and read "neverseenlost" now to see what he wrote about Toga and Preggers. That guy really is funny., even if it is possibly a put-on.
It seems that whatever timeline/universe we are in, Sayid is meant to be a dark character.
He seems to have realized he cannot escape who he is in the off island timeline and has bowed out as Nadia’s potential husband thinking she would be safer with his brother. Unfortunately, his brother is a screw up and depends on Sayid to fix things when he gets in trouble just like Sayid did when they were children. Sayid may want to pull away from a life of violence, but when he pulls the trigger to protect his brother, Nadia and their children, you can see there is a part of him that realizes that this is who he really is. As much as he wants to believe that it is circumstance that has made him a killer, he knows that he was born to be one. For him, free will cannot overcome what he was destined to be.
Whether this is something that is bleeding through from the island timeline is hard to say at this point, but Sayid's resignation to the darkness within in the off island timeline parallels what happens on island. Sayid wants to believe he is a good man, but in the end the darkness overwhelms (claims) him and takes over. Especially chilling was the scene with Dogen at the pool. He sat and listened to Dogen’s story with great empathy. When Dogen asks him if he would stay or go and Sayid answers with the softest and gentlest of voices that he would like to stay, you are lulled into believing that Sayid identifies with Dogen, that he realizes they have both been manipulated and have sacrificed their souls for a false promise. It makes Sayid’s sudden attack and murder or Dogen and subsequently Lennon all the more shocking. After their deaths, Sayid knows he is no longer a good man. He has sold his soul and he is okay with it. When Ben finds him, even he can see that Sayid has succumbed to the darkness within. Is Sayid now the Darth Vader of Lost? Can he or will he still redeem himself in the end as that infamous character did? I look forward to finding out.
The Others: Don’t know why we should care about them. They seem to be a bunch of sheep. They followed Jacob without question, even though they never even saw him, and now that he is dead they have quickly transferred their allegiance to UnLocke (except for the courageous few who apparently stood by their convictions and were summarily dispatched by Smokey). Why were these people brought to the island to begin with? (Dogen said everyone had been brought to the island.) What possible importance do they have? Other than filling up the screen with extra bodies, which makes UnLocke seem more formidable by having a following, I don’t see the point of their existence on the island. More potential casualties, I suppose.
Oddity: Dogen said he’s been on the island for 15 years and his son was 12 years old when the accident happened and he came to the island. So in 2004 (since this is 2007), his son would have been 24. Yet in the off island timeline, Dogen’s son (in Lighthouse) appeared to be 12 not 24 in 2004. Goof up or planned difference in the timelines?
Going back to read some comments now. I can't believe how may there are already!
@Deb: Well, considering Jack has a son, John is getting married and in good terms with his dad, Hurley is happy, Sun and Jin likely not married and what of Shannon, Michael and Walt, Libby and the rest we still haven't seen; I'd say it's one of the parallel's differences.
It could very well be that this would be Dogen's second son.
In fact, the 'new' stories we are seeing could represent everyone's second chances unfolding.
@Deb - Re: Dark side Other Others - I predict that by the end of the season, or probably sooner, all but the main and guest characters will be dead or otherwise disposed of. Maybe with flaming arrows.
nikki&gang, one of my good friends interviewed michael emerson for huffigton...enjoy!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-chattman/michael-emerson-reflects_b_484415.html
GUYS GUYS....It's not on the topic as it does not involve this episode but I had to share this with someone!!!
I sent an email to GeronimoJack'sBeard (Jorge Garcia's and his girlfriend's podcasts) and THEY ACTUALLY ANSWERED MY QUESTION!
Seriously, I'm about to have a stroke or something:D
I know it may seem childish or stupid even (I'm 26, I shouldn't get excited over stuff like this) but LOST is my Star Wars and to hear Jorge Garcia actually answer my question is just AWESOME!! :D:D
It's like he's talking to me!!:D:D
You should see my reaction...proper geekfest!!
I asked them whether they were gonna have guest stars on the podcasts and they said they will have one next week!
Cheers
Got my blog up! Now I've got to catch up here. YIKES I'm behind...
www.sagaciouspenguin.blogspot.com
Behold! Look for an entire series-worth of Sayid inner-monologues condensed into a single paragraph!
Look for what The Others REALLY mean by "good" and "evil!" Look for the heck of it!
Enjoy :)
Whew 172 comments! My DVR cut off the last minute, so I avoided this site until I could watch the whole thing on demand. I told myself I would read through all comments, but I have to admit I only skimmed through the last half - there are just so many! So apologies if I repeat what someone else has pointed out.
Dogen's son: I was wondering if Jacob's ability to heal Dogen's son (for example) only works if Dogen stays on the island, and if Dogen were to leave the island, the son would die. If that's the case, those Others that joined fake Locke would be in for an unpleasant surprise if they get off island.
Ben: He didn't join fake Locke's group leaving the temple, so he is probably hiding in there somewher waiting for the fireworks to die down.
Who's coming??????
Nikki, yes, it is one and the same cookie. Since you are a Seinfeld fan, this is from the actual script. (I'm still amazed at what you can find online!) Sorry to take up your time and space with this, but if all those other people can advertise their websites, I can quote a little Seinfeld! LOVED THAT SHOW! Maybe LOST writers do too!!!
JERRY: Uhm, The thing about eating the Black and White cookie, Elaine, is you want to get some black and some white in each bite. Nothing mixes better than vanilla and chocolate And yet somehow racial harmony eludes us. If people would only look to the cookie all our problems would be solved.
ELAINE: Your views on race relations are fascinating. You really should do an op-ed piece for the Times.
JERRY: Um, um, Look to the cookie Elaine. Look to the cookie.
Point is, is anyone coming?
" Fred said...
Why is Hurley with Jacob. I think it's because Hurley was willing to give up all his good fortune (lotto winnings) and only wanted his father back. He did get him back, but as he said to Miles, even if he never sees his dad again he'll accept they had some time together. "
I really believe this too. This goes back to good vs. evil. Hurley and Jack are good souls. Sayid, Sawyer and Kate are "evil incarnate". I loved that line! Dogen didn't scare me, but he did for that one second.
BTW there was a question about the cabbie. According to Lostpedia he is played by someone named Salvatore Abbadessa.
BTW there was a question about the cabbie. According to Lostpedia he is played by someone named Salvatore Abbadessa.
Oops sorry for the double post, something went wrong with the first one but apparently it showed up anyway.
CBP68: I know we should be talking about Lost and not Seinfeld (but look to the cookie, people, it's all connected!) but I have to tell you a funny story about that episode. My best friend Sue always said that was her fave episode, and I'd never seen it. Then I read this piece saying it ranked in one of the top episodes of all time, "the one where Jerry and Elaine want this rye bread on their way to a party and accost an old lady about it and Jerry gets sick after eating a cookie." Again I said I'd never seen it. The NEXT DAY my friend and I were on a plane going to the UK, and after the in-flight movie, they played... that episode. The very next day after I'd said I wish I could just SEE the episode people had talked about. It was hilarious!! That was way back in 2000, and I've probably seen it half a dozen times since then.
What about Adam and Eve being Jack and Claire? Jack would be the white for good and claire black stone evil? Good Shepard vs. bad Shepard since Christian pops up everywhere perhaps he was part of the islands history going way back and is either really dead or like his daughter is now claimed? Just a thought what do you think?zes
@Jazzygirl. You're right about it being shorter. I also thought, watching it in real time that there were an awful lot of commercials. So on the rewatch I timed it. A little over 38 minutes of show, 20 minutes plus some seconds of ads and a minute plus for "previously on Lost". That's a lot of commercials.
A couple things I noticed on the rewatch were about Kate. When she comes upon Sayid in the jungle, she calls out "Hello?" before she even knows who it is. It just struck me as very odd. And when she got to the temple, she just breezed in the door, like she had just run to the local Quickie Mart. None of the Others asked what had happened to Justin and Aldo. Neither did Lennon. He only asked about Kwon and Ford.
And I was so expecting Keamy to have a heart monitor bomb switch thingy strapped to his bicep, and for him to say "If you kill me, the bus that your neice and nephew are on will explode." I really was waiting for it. He was such a slimey weasel in the AU. I didn't like Keamy on island either, but at least that one had a backbone.
RE: Kate's candidate number. 51 is 15 backwards. Don't know if that's been pointed out.
Karolyn: And I was so expecting Keamy to have a heart monitor bomb switch thingy strapped to his bicep, and for him to say "If you kill me, the bus that your neice and nephew are on will explode." I really was waiting for it. He was such a slimey weasel in the AU. I didn't like Keamy on island either, but at least that one had a backbone.
I'm with you. I liked the refuse-to-die Keamy. Well, not liked, enjoyed. He turned out to be a little sh*t in this one. I did like his whole christopher walken egg thing though.
@Joan
You said: "Not that I think MiB is good...I just think he is no worse than Jacob the Liar there."
I agree, as we've discussed before. I am going to be some disappointed if we're wrong! Haha
I'm not so sure that Sayid or Claire are in any way responsible for their actions - especially if they're both dead. They could be possessed. Or, as another commenter said, soulless.
OMG! They're vampires!
@Deb: you bring up a number of good points. The moment Sayid made his choice to join the elite Iraqi National Army he had given up his soul. Sayid could make an argument like Eko did to Yemi that he did what he did because it was the only choice offered to him. Afterall, it was Kelvin who corrupted Sayid into becoming a torturer, and Sayid continued as Eko did in his actions. What we see is Sayid acting only to protect his brother, Nadia and their children. What we don't see is the number of people killed or tortured behind him. What Sayid said to Ilana on Ajira Flight 316 could equally be applied to him. And although Sayid has tried to recompense, compared with Eko's attempt to salvage his soul, Sayid's actions seem too little. When Ben sent Sayid off to assassinate various people, Sayid did it out of anger. He could have walked away, as he tried at the marina, but he never did.
Deb you wrote: "As much as he wants to believe that it is circumstance that has made him a killer, he knows that he was born to be one. For him, free will cannot overcome what he was destined to be." But free will is not easy. That is Jacob's point to Hurley when Hurley asks about Jack on the cliff side looking out to the sea. We can say it is our destiny, and blame it on that, but in the end it is free choice. We may have been dealt a bad hand, and may come to sorry ends, but consider those who redeem themselves, like Charlie, even Shannon and Boone, Ana Lucia. All sad ends, and all hard luck stories (certainly not as hard luck as Sayid and Eko). Personally I think Eko did redeem himself, and that is why Smokie killed him. Similarly, Michael also redeemed himself.
Deb what you wrote about the Others:"They seem to be a bunch of sheep. They followed Jacob without question, even though they never even saw him, and now that he is dead they have quickly transferred their allegiance to UnLocke." This reminds me of Moses in the desert, when he came back down form Mt. Sinai all the backsliding. Here are the Israelites following this guy who says he is following an invisible God. Their faith is so poor. But they are still the chosen people. So even though many of the Others simply switch to MiB/Locke-ness they are still the Others, and even chosen by Jacob.
Good number of points Deb.
A busy couple of days has kept me away and now there are 190 comments! Thanks for all the really great comments. It's so much fun to read what other people thought of the episode and read some really great thought provoking ideas.
I've tried to read as many as possible, but I've missed a few so forgive me if I am repeating things.
Wow! great episode -- I think it's just going to keep getting better and better from here till the end!
@Mark RY: I also was looking for Cindy and the kids among Smokey/Flocke's followers at the end, but I only saw men. I think some of those who left the temple just wanted to get the hell out of there and ran off into the jungle, while some wanted to join with Smokey/Flocke. I don't see much hope of survival for those who ran off into the jungle!
It has been mentioned several times now that with Jacob's death Smokey/Flocke is now free to leave the island, but instead of leaving he is gathering this army. It goes further then just Jacob being dead. I think he has to get everyone on the island to want to leave, or have them killed. I wonder though if there is some really good reason why there has to be people on the island, and if everyone leaves or dies something bad will happen.
Where is Richard? I'm missing Sawyer and Jin too, but Richard was last seen in the Jungle all freaked out. I'm pretty sure he told Sawyer he was headed to the temple so he should have been there by now. Maybe Smokey/Flocke has him hanging in a tree again!
The "Catch A Falling Star" montage was so creepy. The way they played the music (with a scary Claire voice singing it), the dead and mutilated bodies, the creepy look on Claire and Sayid's faces -- more nightmare inducing stuff! It reminded me of a Lost Promo that played, I think on Sky1, either before the series started or after the first season. It showed all the characters dancing around the wreaked burning fuselage with strange dreamy looks on their faces. That creeped me out, and so did this.
Keamy scene - great!!
Jin in the freezer - surprise!!
@Jessica: I so agree with you that it was really sad seeing Claire and Sayid walking off with creepy evil looks on their faces -- I so hoped for redemption for all the losties -- I don't want to see any of them truly lost in the end!
I think the alligence of Sawyer, Kate and Jin is up for grabs. I don't think Sawyer really believes or trusts Smokey/Flocke, Kate still just wants to help Claire and doesn't really understand everything that's going on, and Jin just wants to find Sun (Sun and Jin have no alligence to either side they just want to find each other).
Ben may be a wild card in all this. I think next week is about him, so it will be interesting to see what happens with him. One thing that has been bothering me: if "the rules" say the others can not harm a candidate, why did Ben kill John Locke - twice!! - did he not know John was a candidate?
Why was Dogens presence at the temple keeping Smokey/Flocke out? Did Jacob give him special powers like Richard?
@Lee: Yes, small moments are so important. The scene between Ben and Sayid was so quick and not much was said, but they spoke volumes with the looks they exchanged.
I have feeling none of the questions we are obsessing over will ever be answered. I also have this fear that the writers are gonna mess up some storylines because they have introduced things before that they have not planned properly....
"Sundown" was great, finally all the characters have come together. I can't wait for the action to start!
Iv'e been wondering wht has happened to sawyer. Last time we see him with Locke-alike. I think Lock-alike kept him in the caves and smoked out, leaving sawyer behind where he can't escape because the ladder fell of the cliff.
I thought Dogen and Lennon were finally going to shower us with answers, or be used as tools to help us understand what's going on on the island, and now they're dead! it's like they didn't know what was going on. They were clueless just like everybody else. It also annoyed me how they wanted to talk to jack in private (LA X) but never did.
Finally i'd like to talk about the whole Jacob-MiB thing. Before these 2 characters were introduced we always thought it was the ISALND that created miracles, the ISLAND demanded the sacrafices... is that thought still valued or are we to assume that Jacob or MiB are responsible for everything that's going on?
Honstly i really don't care what is going on with the characters in thier flashsideways! I don't think the events in the flashsideways are important. I think it's just a tool to bring back all the "dead" characters from previous seasons, without having to resurrect them.... So where the hell is Ana-Lucia, Eko, Charlie, Shanon, Libby, Daniel, Charlotte, Desmond(ok he's not dead so there's still hope)
As u can see i'm not actually commenting alot about the episode itself, cuz all of u guys are great at posting every teeny question that did or did not cross my mind
Can't wait for next weeks episode :D
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, because I had to stop reading at 144 comments, but I think that Kate looked like she was kind of in a trance at the end...maybe Claire "glamored" her before they got out of the pit. She seemed to be following the Flocke group and picked up the rifle because that's what she always does. I hope someone un-hypnotizes her fast!
wv-diolight -- Jacob's aura?
Ariel
I can't help but feel like Lockealike is promising things that he will give to people but in VERY twisted ways. It reminds me of an episode of X-Files where Mulder finds a genie. He wishes for world peace and she grants it, but when he looks around he is the only person left on the planet. World peace, but certainly not what he meant.
In regards to the AU being the result of the promises, I think both Kate and Claire's AU lives don't fit that pattern in that both their lives seem pretty stinky there - Kate still a fugitive and Claire now stuck in LA with a baby that no one wants.
@SonshineMusic In regards to the AU being the result of the promises, I think both Kate and Claire's AU lives don't fit that pattern in that both their lives seem pretty stinky there
Well, if the Sideways world represents Jacob's reward to the Losties, then it would fit that Claire's life isn't much better (since, like Sayid, she's on Smokey's side, and thus not entitled to the reward of a better life).
This would also suggest that Island Kate is likely to side with Smokey, as her Sideways life isn't much better either.
Or else, she sides with Jacob and he rewards her with a clean slate (she didn't kill Wayne) but Kate being Kate, manages to botch her fresh start too (she kills someone else, as suggested by the ComicCon footage).
Which would also tie in with the free will/destiny thing: Jacob's reward to the Losties might be a fresh start, but it's up to them to make the most of it. Some people (Jack, Locke) are able to take that fresh start and improve on their old lives while others (Kate) are unable to break their bad habits.
I posted something I thought was brilliant, but then I noticed that everyone else was way ahead of me.
I just watched the episode last night, and what's on my mind is this: no other episode has ever awoken existential dread in me the way this one did. I can't shake the feeling it left me with. Perhaps it was the horrible way the temple inhabitants were laid waste to.
Or perhaps it's the idea of weighing a soul between good and evil. It would seem that most of us probably exist on a razor's edge of difference between one side and the other. Which side would I fall on? When I think about it, my mind immediately counters, well I'm good to my kids. But that probably doesn't count for a lot. Sayid loved his family and look where he ended up. I can't stop thinking that it probably takes a series of relatively minor, thoughtless actions to tip a soul irrevocably to the wrong side.
What an incredible show to get me thinking about such deep stuff over my morning coffee!
@Kevie: I agree: the feeling of dread that dripped from this episode was palpable for me as well.
I remember feeling that dread in parts of the premiere as well, that an "always darkest before the dawn" kind of darkness was falling, and this episode seemed very much a culmination of that feeling from the premiere.
I am going to keep asking this until we get a real answer - what the hell is in that damn back pack that Smokey travels with it everywhere he goes. for being so powerful, you'd think he'd have some other way to carry things around. Is there a special anti-candidate weapon in there? Anti-ash?
Teebore and Kevin I'm with you about the dark feeling coming from this episode. I didn't like the episode while watching it, it just gave me an awful doomed feeling. On rewatching it I can appreciate the cool stuff that happened, but my first impression was just so strong.
JS good question! I don't have an answer or even a guess at this point.
I forgot to mention my favorite part of the episode -- Ilana's group coming to save the day (and Miles) and especially the mini-reunion between Frank and Miles: Lapidus what are you doing here? No time for that now Miles!
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