Friday, January 23, 2009

Lost 5.01/5.02 Revisited

Well, just about 100 comments later, there are lots of things to discuss about Wednesday night's episode! I posted my immediate episode guide after a couple of viewings here (and then a later post here), but now we've had time to mull it over and it seems there are a few things people want to talk about more than others.

A couple of people have mentioned Sayid's leg. During the dishwasher fight, the guy kicks Sayid's leg, and his leg flies directly out behind him, straight, and the pant leg comes up slightly and some heard a ping sound and thought his ankle looked like an aluminum leg. I've slowed it right down, as have a couple of other viewers, but it's really fuzzy and hard to see, even in HD. My thinking was that it was just a weird move he made, that the ping was actually the clink of the dishwasher, and that his ankle really does happen to be skinny. He doesn't walk with a limp, and if he had a prosthetic leg I'm sure there would be a difference in the way he walked.

When does Daniel talk to Desmond? Lefty pointed out that Desmond never actually left the hatch for any reason, and it would have been Inman who answered the door. How did Daniel know it would be Desmond behind the door? It could have been any time from the moment the bunker was built to the point where it im/ex-ploded. I'm thinking Daniel sees something in his journal reminding him that he talked to Desmond at some point, how could he have been sure that this was the time? Crissy then asked why Desmond only had the memory now, rather than having it all along? After all, if Daniel was always destined to talk to Desmond, didn't that mean that the incident always would have happened? Is that just ease of storytelling, or is it something more? Did Daniel just change history despite saying no one else could? Or does the memory get triggered after the event in the past changed?

Widmore appearing at the airport. Humanebean points out that if the security check on Sun's passport triggered an alarm and Widmore was called in, it would suggest he's the man behind Oceanic Airlines. A few people have agreed with this notion, and, like Joshua posted, I, too, have assumed for some time that Widmore is the man behind Oceanic. Oceanic KNOWS that plane at the bottom of the ocean is fake, but they're going along with it. Because you wouldn't want to show up the CEO. Widmore purchased the plane through a shell company (though, as I pointed out in my book, a close look at the invoice shows the shell company is Widmore Industries, which isn't exactly stealthy) so it technically wouldn't be traced back to him. Did he found Oceanic Airlines, as joshua suggests, as an airline that flies planes near the coordinates of the island, hoping one of them would get sucked into the island's electromagnetic field?

Why does Sun show Kate a baby picture of Ji Yeon and not a toddler pic? I joked that the actor who'd played Ji Yeon in that episode was perhaps contracted for 2 appearances on the show. But in all seriousness, as a mom, if I meet someone I haven't seen in 5 years, the first thing I do is tell them I'm a mom, and then I show a baby picture, and then I show a pic of my 4-year-old now. But I think it's something more than that. As I responded to the poster, it seems to be deliberate that we haven't seen Ji Yeon. We heard her on the phone to Mommy in the finale last year, and then she appears only as a baby here. Are they trying to hide what she'll look like?

Is Mrs. Hawking Daniel Faraday's mom? All signs point to yes. :) And I think that Foucault's Pendulum thingie would say so, too. (I still love watching that final scene for the big whooshing sound the pendulum makes... I wonder if that's where they got the whooshing sound to indicate the time change?)

The whispers in the jungle: one anonymous poster asked if it could be time travellers talking and somehow two time periods are overlapping, where we can't see them, we can just hear them. I thought that last season when the time travelling became a bigger deal (and I suggested it in my book) and it is sort of suggested in Philip K. Dick's "Valis," the book that John Locke gives to Ben last season when he's got him locked in the basement. In that book, a man living in present-day Los Angeles begins seeing an ancient civilization faintly superimposed over the LA landscape, and it's because one time period is breaking into another in a way. (That's a very watered-down description of what is really happening... I recommend you read it.)

Who are the guys with the flaming arrows? I suggested maybe the Arrow station is called that because they defend it with... arrows. Was it the Others? But the guys in the jumpsuits? I took them to be Dharma because they have the same nametags, but Benny suggested it's a group older than Dharma who had been on the island first. Who do you think they were? I was thinking that it's interesting in retrospect that they're British... like Widmore. Any connection? Or could there be any connection to Charlotte? Could the soldiers have been shooting the arrows, or maybe it was an early incarnation of the Others shooting the arrows, and the British soldiers were there.

Lauren suggested that Locke is not, in fact, dead, but has simply been paralyzed by the same spider that attacked Nikki and Paulo. They appeared to be dead, but weren't, and if Locke had been given a higher dosage, he could stay asleep for much longer. It would explain why there were two references to the DunderTwins in that episode. It's a very valid theory!

And I laughed and laughed and laughed at Richard's blunt line to Locke when he made his comment about the compass to John (It... points north, John), and then somehow forgot to add it into my highlights. I'm glad so many people mentioned it as their highlight, though. I think I'll purposely leave funny lines out every week now just so everyone else will recite them!


Katy Boose said...

I was wondering about the army men too with the name tags. Is it possible that they could have been from Rousseau's expedition?
Did she ever mention if her team were all French or multinational?

The Valis comment about the voices makes sense to me. The voices people were hearing were actually there, just in a different "time".

I feel like my brain's been overstimulated with too much information to process in the last few days.

Benny said...

Has it been mentioned?

With regards to the universe course-correcting and Desmond remembering only in 2008 about talking to Daniel.

Course-correcting: The general timeline of things is set and cannot be changed: there are rules to follow. But rules, even those that cannot be broken, can be bent. So I'm thinking is it possible that some events cannot be changed (i.e. Charlie dies), but aspects of the events can be altered (i.e. the WAY Charlie dies - lightning -> broken neck -> arrow -> drowning)

In that sense, maybe the way Desmond came to the island, when, and what happened during his stay all could have changed, but he still pressed the button and turned the key. Or still all that remained the same.

New memory:
Now this goes into crazy, slightly!

As for why he remembers only in 2008. I would suggest that since he is special, there's something inherently special about HOW he experiences time. In that sense, what has happened to him is fixed in time up to the present day Desmond (2008) and his timeline is THE timeline, no future determined yet. So if someone were to go back in is past and add a memory (as Daniel did), it would be recognized at the latest point in his life experienced so far, being in 2008.
(I understand if you have stopped following... I think I may have to clean it up!)

Crissy Calhoun said...

thanks Benny...that almost clears it up for me. my problem is that I am thinking of "present day" as directly after the rescue. I'm considering the present day timeline as the events directly after the freighter explodes; the future is three years after.

If Daniel bends the rules and talks to Des, I would expect his "present day" self to have the memory, i.e. when he's on the rescue boat.

When did the island jump after Daniel talked to Desmond? Maybe that explains it -- if Daniel talks to Des and then the island time skipped to the future?

Or maybe I need to let go of last season's concepts of past, present, and future. :)

Debra said...

What I wonder is why everyone that the survivors meet while time-jumping (Ethan, the 3 military types, whomever is shooting flaming arrows) is immediately hostile? John Locke is shot even before he and Ethan talk, the flaming arrows are launched with no provocation and the military types are planning to chop off Juliette's hand as soon as they are captured. Is this normal?

I bet we will find out that the scene between Daniel and Dr. Chang is time-jumping Daniel taking advantage of one of the jumps occurring when the Orchid station is being built to try to find out more or stop the time-jumping. Trying to save Charlotte's life?

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure I buy the spider theory. Presumably Locke would have undergone an autopsy at some point to determine cause of death, not to mention the spider venom only lasted 8 hours and Locke has apparently been dead for several days.

Debra: "What I wonder is why everyone that the survivors meet while time-jumping (Ethan, the 3 military types, whomever is shooting flaming arrows) is immediately hostile? John Locke is shot even before he and Ethan talk, the flaming arrows are launched with no provocation and the military types are planning to chop off Juliette's hand as soon as they are captured. Is this normal?"

In the case of Ethan, I think that's the course correction thing in effect. Locke was climbing up to the plane wreckage, and had he somehow knocked it down then Boone never would have died and everything would have been different. So Ethan comes along at that very moment and starts shooting at him, thus preventing him from doing that.

Maybe the course correction thing in general is violent. The examples we've explicitly seen of it -- Charlie repeatedly dying, that man with red shoes dying -- have always been violent.

Benny said...


Yeah, I thought that too. I'm not sure myself. The other problem with this concept is that the Daniel who talks to Desmond is circa January 2005. So that also happens in the 2008 past. Which would mean from Des08's perspective, someone from his past went further into his past to add a memory!

Now that's crazy. So there's definitely more to this time traveling island obviously. But I think my original post does present a more lay explanation.


Remember that the hostiles have always been, well... hostile. So Ethan shooting and the flaming arrows (if we are to believe them to be the hostiles from the past). As for the army guys... I'd militias are often hostile off the start. Think of Keamy's group killing everyone in the barracks regardless.

One evidence suggesting why it is the hostiles from the past throwing the arrows, I will point to Ethan's gun and the army guy's gun being quite similar. I would suggest that the hostiles were able to eliminate whoever this was and/or take whatever they had!

Autopsy not necessarily! If it is quite obvious that the cause of death and all circumstances surrounding the death point to suicide (as the journal article suggest) then there might be no point in doing the autopsy. If no one claims the body such as a relative or friend, it's one less incentive as well. That being said, I'm not completely sold on the spiders as well.

Benny said...

I also forgot to mention that your idea of the island moving to 2008 is being the cause of Desmond remembering in 2008 is neat. I don't see anything inherently wrong with that, we'll just have to wait for confirmation or debunking!

ronald said...

The Island is using the time shifting an a defensive mechanism. When Locke is about to be shot,when Richard passes the compass, when Faraday explains to Desmond what needs to be done, time is changed to a different period. I don't think that it is random. The people don't know when it will happen but the island is all knowing.
Different people has a higher importance than others like Locke vs Julia. The island couldn't care less for Julia (chop away) but would find anyway to help Locke.
I really believe that Locke's body will be the vessel for the spirit that is Jacob. Kinda like a Buddha. This is why I dont think he was bitten by the spider. In a meat locker he could also catch a bad cold.
Faraday couldn't have talked to Desmond before the plane crash on Sept 22 2004. The memory could have been added to Desmond's sub conscious and retrieved during a dream circa Sept 2007 by his conscious upon waking.

humanebean said...

I really like the idea that the island is using the timeshifts to "course correct", i.e. moving Faraday along before he says too much and saving Locke from Ethan's next bullet. The timing of the shifts is otherwise a bit too coincidental thus far.

There is an excellent post by Koobie over at on the concept of time as a record. I won't even attempt to summarize it here except to say that being a big vinyl fan, I find it much easier to understand than some other explanations I've seen.

Between the beginning of one song and another on a record album, the needle follows a lengthy journey along the grooves as the record rotates beneath it. On a compact disc, you can instead just touch a button and the laser will instantly pick up at the next song - a much shorter journey between the two points. If time as we normally experience it is the record, then a "skip" jumps many grooves to a new point. Those on the island experience it as a new timeframe, past or future to where they started. For someone off-island (or perhaps integral to the island itself, like the Natives), they are still experiencing the record (time) as it normally would flow.

Desmond, as we've seen, has experienced the 'reality' of different moments in time out of sequence in the way he (and we) would normally expect them to unfold. I noticed that Faraday read one of the latest entries in his notebook before he raced to the hatch to bang on the door. This entry would likely have been many pages further than even the one we've seen where he recognizes Desmond as his constant. Faraday had learned something that reinforced for him that Desmond was able to experience time as a compact disc rather than a record.

Their conversation at the Swan station door takes place AFTER the events of last season's finale - as people off the island would reckon time. So, even though the conversation is taking place in the past as WE know it, Desmond 'remembers' the event while he is on the boat with Penny three years after leaving the island.

Someone else has mentioned that this form of 'remembering' is exactly what happened to Locke when he dreamed of the plane (in Season 1), leading him to take Boone with him to find in in the jungle. WE see Locke watch the plane crash ... months later in our (and his) perception of time ... but actually taking place in the past as the island knows it.

*phew* I think I need to go ice my brain now ....

Steve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Steve said...

Nikki, if you get the chance please watch the very first episode again. Within the first couple of seconds, I want to know if you see what I saw. When the camera pans back from Jack, is that Ben's baton by Jack's head next to a piece of bamboo? There is definetly something black and metal to the left side to his head. i eventually saw this because in season four when Locke brings Ben a book from Ben's collection and Ben replies that he's read this already Locke says read it again you might have missed something the second time around. That is why I started rewatching the first season. Also i wondered why Jack was the only one in the jungle while Rose and Locke were on the beach (During the flight they all were next to each other) Why did Jack wind up so far away after the crash. On a side note is it me that it's interesting that Jack was sitting near a terminal cancer patient and a man who was paralysed? The other odd thing is Kate mentioned to Jack as she was sewing him up that he didn't seem to be afraid of the current situation that they all were in and Jack mentions counting to five yada yada yada. Do you think that he's been there before but can't remember all of it. Do you think that they will revisit this episode and maybe show it differently? Maybe from a different perspective? Please let me know if you see something next to Jack's head in the pilot episode.

Roland said...

Forgive me if I missed something, but one thing that I was thinking about: If the fake Oceanic at the bottom of the ocean accounted for all of the passengers of the flight, would they have 8 bodies too many? I mean Charles Widmore couldn't have possibly predicted that there were 8 (and finally 6) survivors that would come back to civilization. Did I miss something or they just did not count properly?

Benny said...

Who knows. They said all bodies had been accounted for, but maybe they said they did a recount and had in fact 8 less than the records showed or they just didn't say anything.

In any case, it hasn't been addressed onscreen.

Nikki Stafford said...

Katy: I think this is an excellent theory! It would definitely be one way to get us back to Rousseau, something I'm dying to do.

Benny: I understand perfectly, and I think it's a more succinct way of saying what I've been rambling on and on about... that the memory was there, but dormant until that moment. I like it!

Another thought is, it could be the island running things again. Michael surviving that car crash was beyond all sense or physics, yet the island prevented him from dying. It jammed his gun when he tried to use it against himself, but the gun shot no problem the moment it was aimed away from him. Similarly, if the island doesn't want Desmond to have the memory of Daniel until 2005 (or 2006, 2007, 2008... it wasn't clear when he had that thought, since Penny rescued everyone in January 2005) when it was necessary for him to go back.

In fact, jumping off-topic here, if Desmond is in an earlier time space than the Oceanic 6 flashforwards, it would explain how Mrs. Hawking-Faraday (if that is indeed who she is) could be in Oxford. In 2005/6/7 she could have been there, and in 2008 she's with Ben in LA.

But then again... that would be super-confusing, if Des warns her in 2006 that her son is trapped on an island in 2007 and she needs to get to LA by 2008 to save him. So, yeah, I'm thinking he's in 2008, too.

I'm annoying when I type while I think.

Nikki Stafford said...

Debra: You're right; they are all hostile. I think that sort of seems to be the way everyone is and has been from the beginning of the series. When the survivors first saw the Others, they hid behind bushes. When Sayid first encountered Rousseau, he immediately thought she was hostile, and she thought the same of him. Henry Gale was a suspect right from the beginning. Maybe it's a subtle comment on our society, that we immediately suspect anything we don't recognize or know?

Nikki Stafford said...

Anonymous: I'm not sure Locke's undergone an autopsy. If you think about it, Hoffs-Drawlar had no other visitors turn out to Locke's funeral. The guy running the home left Jack alone in the room with Locke. Then, that night when they broke in, the coffin was still sitting there with Locke in it. That would make sense for a two-day visitation, but since the obit said the visitation was only one day, why would the body still be there?

There's a chance Ben orchestrated the whole thing with Locke's permission -- spider bite, put him in a coffin, pay off a funeral home to allow him to be in there (or maybe it's not a funeral home and just an abandoned space that Ben dressed up... it's not like he's never played dress-up before), hire an Other to play the funeral director, then lure the Oceanic 6 to the spot with the fake obituary in the paper. It's not something I've ever considered before, but I do like it. :)

Benny said...

Your (later overturned) idea that Des is in the O6 past is not necessarily erroneous. Remember that the Daniel that talked to Des is from circa January 2005, when everyone was rescued and the island disappeared. So it is possible that Des received the memory sometime in between the rescue and 2008, advised Ms Hawking and she sought Ben's help, leading her to where we last met.

ChrisTemple said...

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned but I think the reason Daniel said that Desmond was "special" and that the rules don't apply to him is because he is the only one that is curently on the island as well as off the island.

Benny said...

What do you mean by "curently on the island as well as off the island."?
Do you mean simultaneously or...

Anonymous said...

"Your (later overturned) idea that Des is in the O6 past is not necessarily erroneous. Remember that the Daniel that talked to Des is from circa January 2005, when everyone was rescued and the island disappeared. So it is possible that Des received the memory sometime in between the rescue and 2008, advised Ms Hawking and she sought Ben's help, leading her to where we last met."

Penny says Desmond hasn't been on the island in three years, putting that scene where Desmond "remembers" Faraday's message in 2008.

Benny said...


Riiiiiiiight! Forgot...
Thanks for clearing it up, we now have confirmation.

Jason Paul Tolmie said...

Wow! Just watched the first two episodes here in the UK. Gotta try and get my head round what is happening! I got over 120 comments to read now:)

Nikki, I'm glad to say that Lapidus does in fact make a return later on in the series as I saw a show made for Sky One here in the UK (aired just before tonights two episodes) featuring comedian and massive Lost fan Iain Lee. He was on set with the cast & crew during the filming of episode 9 & 10 for the new season 5 and although nothing important is given away, in the background Lapidus is seen wearing what basically amounts to the uniform that an airline captain would wear. After all, he was supposed to be the pilot of Oceanic Flight 815 in the beginning. One can only wonder how he ends up on the island in an airliners pilot uniform? Can't wait to find out!

Let me apologize in advance Nikki if this spoils anything and by all means delete my post asap.


Jazzygirl said...

I rewatched the episodes tonight and I have to say it was a bit easier to follow the second time around. LOL Of course reading everyone's input helped to anchor some things that were happening.
I wanted to add for what it's worth that I watched the dishwasher scene in slow motion and to me, when his pant leg lifted, it looked like a real leg with dark skin...just skinny.
I didn't catch the whole Mrs. Hawking as Daniel's mother thing the first time until you guys talked about it. Now it's so obvious. LOL Also didn't notice that Penny and Desmond were married when he woke up. It's all still so confusing but yes, fun.

Jazzygirl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jazzygirl said...

Oh, and Jason, I don't think Lapidus is going to wind up on the island in a pilot's sounds like it's a flashback story. Can't wait! :)

Gary said...

Hey Nikki! and hello to all my fellow Lost fans frequenting Nikki's blog. I've been a passionate and loyal fan of the show since the very first episode and I'm so thrilled that season 5 is here!
I just wanted to say Nikki how I've enjoyed reading your episode guides for the show and I'm looking forward to reading your season 4 book.

I have a few comments and theories from the first two new episodes of the new season and welcome any and all discussion!

Regarding the army men in the green uniforms and name tags:
I think they might have something to do with what Hurley had learned when he went to Australia to investigate the numbers. He met with Sam Toomey's wife and was told that Sam and Leonard had been in the service together and were stationed at a listening post in the Pacific and discovered the numbers through a transmission they picked up. I think Sam and Leonard might have been a part of this group of men.
I believe there might be a World War II connection here. Maybe the time shifts have brought the survivors into contact with allied servicemen who were stranded or purposely based on the island during the war. Wouldn't it be so cool to encounter American or Japanese soldiers on the island that are being shifted through time! A lot of people thought Dharma when seeing these men but as soon as I saw the green uniforms, I thought World War II.
I've always felt as though the island itself was as much a character as the characters themselves and thus it's backstory would be shown eventually. Now we see how that is going to be done. Here's hoping we see Rousseau's backstory in this way! Broke my heart to see her shot last season.

A word about the time shifting itself:

It seems to be similar to what Desmond experienced in "The Constant". When he shifted, he left most memories behind but retained some. The island leaves some "memories" such as objects,artifacts or people behind while taking others with it jumps.

Glad to be online and sharing my passion with all my friends! Until we meet again in front of the tv next Wednesday!! Take care and be safe folks!

The Alex Ross Collector said...

Biggest GASP moment: The return of... VINCENT! LOL

M9 EGO said...

Hi all bloggers, coming in from the UK so only saw the new episodes last night.......excellent although it did keep me awake for hours afterwards thinking !
One thought I have is concerning the Darhma man (the guy who presents the films), In the episode when he wakes up in the morning he feeds a baby...could this be Sun ?....

Sparty_Cyclone said...

Is there any significance to what Dr. Chang said at the beginning of 5.01 and what Mrs. Hawking said at the end of 5.02? As my fuzzy memory recalls, when asked what would happen if they kept digging under the orchid station, Dr. Chang said "God help us all." And when Ben asked what would happen if it took longer than 70 hours to get back to the island, Mrs. Hawking said, "God help us all." Would the same thing happen in both circumstances? Was this "the incident" that cost Dr. Chang his arm?

Benny said...

The general thought on the boards was that it might be Miles rather than Sun. We have no information on Miles' past but we have a pretty definite background of Sun.

There most likely is a significance between the two. Chang is adamant no dynamite can be used. Mrs Hawking's comment comes as a result of the circumstance surrounding Ben turning that exact wheel.

As for the incident, it referred to the incident at the Swan, with the magnetic reactor in that closed up room. But we cannot be certain if it is that incident that did indeed cost Candle's arm!

Jason Paul Tolmie said...

That's it! It's Miles that Dr Chang (Marvin) feeds. Miles is there on the island looking for his daddy. Failing that, I suppose it could just as easily be Jin? Could it be that Jin's Mother had an affair when Jin was a baby and hooked up with Dr Chang somehow? After all, that's what she was into. Maybe Jin's fisherman dad isn't his dad after all?

robb said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
robb said...

Gary: I too thought of WWII when I saw the men in uniforms. It instantly reminded me that Sayid and Hurley picked up a radio station playing WWII-era music in The Long Con from Season 2. In fact Lostpedia has their exchange as this:

Sayid mentioned that the radio could be picking up signals from anywhere in the world. Hurley cleverly responds "Or any time. Just kidding, dude."

I think Hurley was unknowingly on to something there...

A.G.Wooding said...

I loved the return of Ethan in this episode. People have been saying that it makes no sense that Ethan has met Locke previously but I think it makes perfect sense.
Ethan made his first appearance in 1.09 Solitary and I always thought it was weird that he suddenly decided to go hunting with Locke. Why did he suddenly attatch himself to Locke but with this new information it may hint that Ethan recognised Locke from the past. If he saw Locke on the beach he may have realised he had been telling the truth about what happened to him and attempted to find out more information on him.

YolandaAsh said...

hey guys,

its been crazy trying to follow all the posting.... but I wanted to follow up on Daniel's visit with Desmond. I think we have to stop thinking of time in a linear fashion. So basically if happens to someone at any point in their life it happens at all points in their life. i.e. Desmond woke up with new knowledge in the future when Daniel spoke to him in the past. Or Locke being temporarilty paralyzed in the future when Ethan shot him in the past. I don't know if this really makes any sense or not but I think if you stop considering events linearly its less confusing.... maybe.. not... at all really....

Benny said...


Non-linear time (the fourth spacial dimension) is not completely out of the question. But if I get what you're saying correctly...

This would mean that anyone ANYTIME, would be affected. So Locke being shot by Ethan would suggests him getting temporarily paralyzed in everytime.

The same goes for Desmond. Daniel suddenly talking to him would mean Desmond has the same knowledge in 2008 and 2005 (when getting rescued) and even ON the island prior to the rescue!

In the case of Desmond, I think there's more at play than just time being non-linear.

Benny said...

One theory of the show (possibly an off-child from the time loop theory - which I'm not a big fan of, due to its many lapses and inconsistencies) is that some group is trying to dislodge time from its spacial counterpart, making it possible to change time.

This plays in the fate v. free will debate/aspect of Lost. If time was an actual fourth dimension - think Slaughterhouse-Five - then fate is the decisive force. If time is taken out of spacial dimensions, then it is non-determined and two possible results can come into play:

1- Time can be changed by altering the past and modifying an established timeline; or
2- The future is not pre-determined (i.e. not a space) and thus free-will is the driving force.

This is all theoretical, and one would have to consider that time being a 4th spacial dimension is an actual fact.

YolandaAsh said...

@ Benny
I see flaw in my thinking... I also do think that again somehow the "rules" (whatever they maybe since no one seems entirely sure yet) don't apply to Desmond. Him being "uniquely and miraculously special" seems to confirm that in my opinion. Also I was wondering if you could point me to some additional reading about spacial dimensions specifically theories about the 4th spacial dimension.

I am starting to think I need some kind of advanced degree to fully process and converse about the show. Not in a bad way but in the sense that talking about all these theories makes me want to read and learn so I can continue to discuss things intelligently. (As much as one can sound sane debating controversial unproven theories about time travel)

Benny said...

Desmond being special is certainly the key! To what extent and how exactly (blowing the Swan sure is a factor) is still up for grabs.

There isn't much scientific reading that I can suggest (unless you are already well versed in physics, in which case you would probably know them). Most of my own understanding comes from science fiction.

Understanding the relationship between space and time is a good start, and for that I would recommend A Brief history of Time by Mr Hawking. As for understanding time as a fourth dimension, I can only recommend Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut and also, there's a good debate of the concept in -NERD ALERT- the first episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, when Sisko meets the Prophets.

I guess the rest comes from a hint of imagination/visualization mixed with random online readings and a dash (or barrel) of movies/tv shows/reading!

mgkoeln said...

A great theory about the four-toed statue popped up on another board: Maybe Sawyer hurting his foot results in some infection so that he needs to get rid of one toe (Ouch!). And maybe he then jumps back in time and leaves a lasting impression on the island's early inhabitants. Wouldn't a giant Sawyer statue be great?

Benny said...


I saw that one too. The problem I have with it is that the sting is distinctly under Sawyer's big toe. From the statue's caption, it doesn't seem to be missing a big toe, unless it was a huge one.

As well, when we look at the statue, all toes seem to be proportional to each other, and none seem missing (if someone was to have five toes).

Gary said...

Hello friends!

I think the survivors have another daddy issue to sort out.

Father Time!

elvisgrace said...

Desmond couldn't have the memory until Daniel's present caught up with Desmond's past.

elvisgrace said...

ETA: Daniel's convo doesn't change history, because the event it triggered (Desmond going to Oxford)hadn't happened yet. But after it did happen, it had always happened.

Benny said...

@elvisgrace: this is just a semantics issue, but your comment is contradicting. Not that the idea itself is wrong. Let me explain.

The definition of "always happened" in time mechanics suggests that in between the past event X (going to Oxford in 1996) and the time Y where an observer is sent back to trigger X (In 2004, Desmond told to go to Oxford), the event itself had happened. Thus in 1996, before Daniel tells Desmond to go back, he had already gone back.

Always means that, at any point in time from X onward, X had happened, even before year Y when the past event X was itself triggered. Time/history is a hard line that is stamped into existence and not drawn.

Your suggestion is of non-linear objective time. History itself does not go forward from 1996-1997-...-2004-2005, but can consist of loops, just as subjective time can. Thus history would happen as such:


In the b-occurrence, the event X has always happened, that much is true. This is analogous to drawing a line and, in 2004, lifting your pencil and starting again from 1996, tracing over the already existing 1996-2004 segment. With the same analogy, if objective time is linear but can be changed, one would erase the segment from 1996 to 2004 and than restart from 1996.

I like the idea, since it could suggest that in 1974-1977, we are also seeing the development of non-linear objective time, which would be in defense of the theory that the 'chronological past' can be altered.

I hope this brings clarity to my semantics issue. Note that I understand what you mean by "catching up", but in the grand scheme of things, there is an entire environment affected by such actions.