“You found your loophole.” “Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I’ve gone through to get here.”
First of all, can I just give props to SonshineMusic for making me my awesome new Dharma logo? I’m so thrilled with it. I need to get it on a shirt. Or a work jumpsuit. :)
Anyway, tell me what the following things have in common:
• a guy who sleeps with a girl after wooing her for several months, only to never call her again after he’s gotten what he wants (no, this hasn’t happened to me)
• a driver in a car on a really rainy day who drives too close to a woman pushing a child in a stroller just as they’re walking by a ginormous puddle, and sends a tidal wave over the two of them and keeps on driving (yes, this has happened to me)
• two writers who build up an incident for an entire season and know that the next season won’t start for about 8 months, and they leave it the way this episode ended
If you guessed, “These are all about JERKS” then you guessed correctly! The difference with that final one: I’d follow them to the ends of the earth. Hell, if they asked ME to kill Jacob, I would have done it.
What a glorious episode. Freakin’ amazing awesomesauce gloriousness. Where to begin?!
And it turns out Jacob is....
Nope, not Jack. Not Christian, either. Not John Locke. Not Roger Workman. Not Horace. It’s... Rita’s dickish ex-husband from Dexter! I TOTALLY called it back in... oh whatever. I was actually THRILLED that Jacob was someone we hadn’t seen. It opened up the show in a million different ways. The episode opened with Jacob (bathed in white: white clothes, white sand, white fish, white tapestry) being visited by
Jacob’s home visitsSo we see Jacob visit several of the people and touches each of them, but there were two that were unlike the others: He visits Kate when she’s a child, touching her when he hands her the lunchbox (the same one she and her buddy Tommy will later bury under a tree as a time capsule, along with his toy plane, right before he’s shot and killed as she’s trying to visit her mom). He visits Sawyer at his parents’ funeral, touching him when he shakes his hand. Visits Jack when he performs the now-legendary 5-second-fear surgery. Jin and Sun get a visit at their wedding. He seems to bring Locke back to life after his father throws him out of the window and changes his life forever. But notice how different the Sayid and Hurley visits are: they happen after their return with the Oceanic 6. So... what do his visits mean? Were they to get those people on the plane? If so, how did Hurley and Sayid get on the plane, if he only visited them AFTER they returned from the island?
The Man in Black
So if I understand this correctly (and I probably won’t until the end of season 6) there was another person on the island, one who embodied the darkness of it. Jacob seems to remain on the island physically, while the other one has left and has to find a way back. He’s unable to kill Jacob, and must find a “loophole,” i.e. someone else who can do it for him. Has this other man been priming Ben for 35 years for this very moment? Has he been priming Locke for even longer for the same reason? I’ve made so many comparisons to Ben and Locke and how their lives are so similar, but now they’re even moreso: for it would appear that despite all their beliefs and willingness to comply, they were nothing more than pawns in the bigger game between Jacob and the other man. Does this dissipate the Ben/Widmore war? Because that one was immensely fascinating to me, but this one is obviously a much bigger one.
And the other thing this indicates is... Locke is really dead. He’s not coming back, he never will, and he really died at Ben’s hand. Locke didn’t get his resurrection; he never found confidence or peace. He died an angry man who believed he was a failure, who never did anything right in his life, who was always the gullible loser. This revelation is hidden beneath the much more shocking and dramatic not-death of Juliet, but in the end, Locke is dead. And I found that immensely sad.
Highlights: • That opening. Awesome, awesome opening.
• Richard: “I’ve seen things on this island that I could barely describe but I’ve never seen someone come back to life.” Locke: “And I’ve never seen anyone who doesn’t age. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen.”
• Jack telling Richard not to give up on Locke. Interesting that just when Jack finally believes in Locke, it’s no longer Locke, apparently.
• Locke asking Ben why he hasn’t told Richard about the plan to kill Jacob, and Ben saying because he thought it was a secret, and Locke’s response: “When did THAT ever stop you?”
• Richard with the sledgehammer. I don’t think we’ve ever seen him being so violent!
• Vincent!! ROSE! GRIZZLY BERNARD!!
• Frank: “In my experience the people who go out of their way to tell you they’re the good guys are the bad guys.”
• Locke: “You mind if I ask you a question?” Ben: “I’m a Pisces.”
• Locke: “Well, it’s a wonderful foot, Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?”
• The smackdown between Jack and Sawyer. It’s been five years coming, and it was such an amazing cartharsis for both of them.
• Hurley: “Don’t worry, dude. Everything will be fine when Jack changes the future. Or the past. One of those.”
• The way Ben walks into the statue and is immediately drawn to the fire at the end of the hallway. Emerson shows such regret and longing in this episode. He’s amazing.
• The looks on everyone’s faces when Jack is about to drop the bomb. It was a beautiful moment... and interestingly, when he thinks he’s at the end, Sawyer looks at Juliet, not Kate.
• Sawyer: “This don’t look like LAX.”
• Phil’s death. Best death since Nikki and Paulo. WOOT!!
• Emerson (again) when he pleads with Jacob, “What about me?”
Did You Notice?:
• Matthew Fox pulls off haggard really well. I’ve never seen a character look more realistically like he’s been emotionally hit by a Mack truck than Jack this season.
• Well, we all assumed last week that Widmore touching Eloise’s stomach tenderly suggested she was pregnant, and we were correct. How much do I love that a mainstream television show features a fetus of a child coming along on an expedition that is being steered by... his own journal notes?
• One of my favourite moments in the episode was the discussion between Sun and Ben, where he tells her that he was once the leader of the island and the leader is the only person who can meet with Jacob and takes instruction from him, and then she asks what Jacob is like and he says, “I dunno. I’ve never met him.” Sun’s face = utter confusion.
• Bram refers to Lapidus as a yahoo, which is what Sawyer called him when he came to the helicopter at the end of season 4.
• I was convinced Widmore was in the box, with an oxygen tank or something being kept alive.
• Richard refers to Eloise as “our leader,” meaning Widmore is NOT the leader of the group, it’s her. Did he become the leader after she left the island?
• The CGI on the departing sub is just as bad as it was last week. Ugh.
• Sawyer says they’re looking at the north shore. Kate argues that the sun is setting on the wrong side for that to be the case. Sawyer asks her if she has a compass. Juliet looks longingly at the departing sub while listening to them flirt. The look on her face says, “Just kill me now.”
• When Vincent runs up to Sawyer on the beach, there’s a rainbow in the sky. Could have been there naturally, or it could be a reference to the Noah’s Ark story, where God sent a rainbow as a promise that he would never wreak havoc on the world like that again. Interesting that it appears right before they’re about to set off their own apocalypse.
• Bernard’s first words are “Son of a bitch,” in homage to Sawyer.
• I was a little annoyed that, despite wanting to be “retired” and on their own, Rose’s first words when seeing her old “friends” were, “Oh, HELL no.” Rose could always be crotchety, but way to have some old ties there. Sheesh. Luckily their next scene made up for this.
• Considering Rose and Bernard are wearing the same clothes they’d been wearing when they were being shot at with flaming arrows three years earlier, they’ve kept those clothes REALLY clean.
• Bernard: “We just care about being together.” Bernard looks at Rose, Rose looks at Bernard. Juliet looks at Sawyer. Sawyer looks at... Kate. Kate looks at a leaf.
• The dog painting is still in Jacob’s cabin, but the jars of liquid are gone, along with many other extras that had been there before.
• Jacob’s reading Flannery O’Connor’s “Everything That Rises Must Converge.” Me, by the way: “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...” Last time the writers threw a book in the finale at me was season 2. I HATE them for adding this to my already rushed writing schedule. ARGH. Anyway, enough of my bitching. This book is a collection of O’Connor’s short stories published after death at the very young age of 39 from lupus. The story titles, which are indicative of this season, are:
o "Everything That Rises Must Converge"
o "Greenleaf"
o "A View of the Woods"
o "The Enduring Chill"
o "The Comforts of Home"
o "The Lame Shall Enter First"
o "Revelation"
o "Parker's Back"
o "Judgment Day"
• Ben tells Locke he’s a Pisces in an effort to make him go away. But just like everything else, that’s a lie. We know that Ben’s birthday is December 19, but the Pisces sign is for those born from February 20 to March 20. Interesting, however, that the astrological sign for Pisces is VERY similar to the sign that Juliet was branded with in “Stranger in a Strange Land.” • So, Sun walks up to Aaron’s old crib and I said to my husband, “You know, I’ve always been disappointed that no one ever found Charlie’s Drive Shaft ring.” And then she reached in and picked it up. I threw my arms above my head, “YES!” My husband couldn’t stop laughing, and said, “You truly are a geek.”
• Jin: “We will never be apart. Because being apart from you would be like the sky being apart from the Earth.” And... apparently that was SO long you couldn’t memorize it? Interesting, though, that both Jin and Sun fell from the sky to the Earth, and then he remained on the Earth while she took to the sky once more.
• Jin says that Jacob’s Korean is excellent... they noticed the same thing about Charlotte. Could there be a connection?
• I really enjoyed the hallway scene with Jack and his father. Jack is still a student, and Christian is his teacher, and he saves the patient and Jack’s cool by helping the situation. Then he tells him what a great job he did, and Jack berates him for giving him a “time out” and embarrassing him in front of his friends. Christian wonders aloud if he’s the one who doesn’t believe in Jack. Good question: it’s not necessarily everyone else who thinks Jack is getting special treatment, but Jack thinking he should get it.
• The girl playing young Rachel looks a lot like older Rachel.
• I love the idea of Hurley’s curse being a blessing in disguise.
• Not-Locke tells Richard that he thinks he’s just making up the rules as he goes along. Is he? Who was on the island first, Richard or the other guy?
• Miles once again speaks for the fans, suggesting something fans have speculated about for weeks, that maybe Jack causes the incident, rather than stops it.
• Juliet quotes Jack’s “Live together, die alone,” but it has a different meaning coming from her. She leaves out the extra parts, “if we don’t live together, we’ll die alone,” and instead insinuates, “We lived together, now we’ll [I’ll] die alone.”
• Man, there are a LOT of shootout scenes at the end of season 5!!
• Miles tells Chang to get as far away from here as he can, which is what Chang told his wife to get her off the island.
• I guess we now know why Marvin Candle has a prosthetic arm!
• Juliet’s fall was heartbreaking, and something I didn’t see coming at ALL. And I think that’s the first time we’ve seen Sawyer sob. It was a lot like when Buffy jumped from the tower at the end of season 5. I didn’t start crying until I saw Spike fall apart. Similarly, it really hit me when Sawyer started crying.
• Ilana asks Richard what lies in shadow of the statue. He answers, “Ille qui nos omnes servabit,” which means “He who will protect (or save) us all.” Does this mean Ben just killed their saviour?
• This is the second season that ended with a big revelation of Locke lying dead in a box. I love that only one season ago we went, “OMG, Locke is dead!” and now a year later we’re going, “OMG, Locke is dead!!” Only on Lost.
• The pit of fire that Locke throws Jacob into was glowing at the beginning of the episode, as if this one fire has been going from the beginning.
• On Jacob’s tapestry, you can see people worshipping the sun, and presumably the Sun God, who is Ra. RA = Richard Alpert?
• At the end of the episode, it’s like Ben is returned to being a little boy again. Jacob’s simple reply, “What about you” is shocking in the moment. Just as Ben says, he’s always done what Jacob asked of him, and Jacob showed him no regard at all. If Jacob really IS the good guy, then Ben has just been tempted by Satan to kill God, in a sense.
Hurley’s numbers:
On Dan’s notes on how to remove the plutonium core, there appears to be a 23B marking on the side of the diagram. (Or 23-8.)
So Many Questions...
• Damon, will you marry me?
• Jacob clearly called The Black Rock to the island. So how did it end up in the middle? Did he will it there? Does he have that kind of power?
• What happened to the rest of the statue if it was intact in the late 19th century?
• Who is Jacob’s nemesis?
• What did Bram mean when he asked if Frank was a candidate?
• Not-Locke seems very interested when Ben tells him about Alex telling him to do whatever John Locke says. Is it possible that Jacob represents only certain things on the island, while Smokey and other evil apparitions belong to Angry Man in Black?
• Who broke the line of ash that surrounded Jacob’s cabin?
• What happened to Ilana? Why was she in a hospital completely covered in bandages? Did Jacob heal her with his touch? Does Ilana know who he is when he arrives? How? This would suggest this group is a third rogue unit, as we suspected a few weeks ago, and they’re with Jacob, not with Widmore or Ben.• Jacob appears to bring Locke back to life with his touch, and tells him, “I’m sorry this happened to you” in what sounds like a genuine sentiment. Is it possible he’s really the good guy?
• Do all of Juliet’s man troubles stem from the fact that her mother told her that even if you love someone you don’t necessarily belong together?
• Oh Radzinsky. How happy am I knowing that you will eventually end up with a bullet in your brain?
• One of Hurley’s personal belongings is a Fruit Roll-Up. He was eating a Fruit Roll-Up when Walt came to visit him in the institution.
• So... did Juliet just kill everyone? Restart the clock? I’m furious with the writers, and thrilled with them all at the same time. Oh you horrible, horrible people. How I love you.
Next week: Loneliness. Depression. A giant hole in my Wednesday night viewing schedule. Taking the week off to work on my season 5 book. I want to thank all of you for coming here week after week to read my musings and join in the discussion in the comments, offering such diverse and brilliant opinions. I’ve enjoyed every minute of it. I’m not sure what upsets me more: no more Lost episodes, or no more Thursday discussions with all of you.
I threw this out there earlier, and I’ll devote a single post to it in a few weeks, but we’ve been discussing on the blog a viewing party, watching seasons 1-5, 2 or 3 episodes a week starting in the summer right through to the beginning of season 6, and I hope all of you will be willing to join in. I’ll post notices in as many places as I can to see how many people we can recruit to come and discuss the earlier seasons in light of what we now know, and I think it’ll be a lot of fun!
And in the meantime, I hope you’ve enjoyed the blog posts enough to order my season 4 book, available here at Amazon, and my upcoming season 5 book, now taking preorders (and available in late October). And if you have a copy already, get another one for a friend! Haha! (OK, there's a method to my shamelessness: At the end of every season, bookstores have a nasty habit of starting to return my books because they figure no one is interested in Lost anymore... I’m hoping if there’s a sudden demand for buying them, they’ll keep them in the stores a little longer, rather than return them, only to reorder them and make my publisher have to pay the freight both ways, which is sadly the case. Also, the more backorders on the season 5 book, the more are printed. Please help a gal out!)
And please keep coming back throughout the coming months. We’ll have a LOT of Lost talk on here, and I can’t wait to keep chatting about Lost with y’all!
410 comments:
1 – 200 of 410 Newer› Newest»I am very interested in understanding why Jacob visited some of the Losties Pre-815 and Hurley/Sayid POst Oceanic 6. Also, did he visit everyone from 815 at some point or just these select few that ultimately helping in this 'battle'.
I think I audibly cursed when Juliet blew up the bomb and the screen went white and the LOST logo came on and the clock read 10pm (CST)! ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great job Nikki. Definitely up for the reviewing of Seasons 1-5!
!!!!!!!
No, really: !!!!!!!!!!!
Oh. My. Flippin'. Gosh.
I get why Michael Emerson's quoted in various recent articles as saying, "Can they do that?" Can they kill Jacob? Can they set off the nuke? Can they leave us hanging until 2010 on that white flash?
My #1 question:
I have to wonder about Jacob dying. We hear that he and his nemesis can't kill each other. Does that mean that just plain anyone else can do them in? This seems to be the "loophole" to which Jacob refers when he sees Ben in the company of what we're just realizing is not Locke (more on that in a moment), but it seems a bit odd that he'd be that vulnerable, especially given his global travels. Maybe he's only vulnerable on the Island, or even only, for some reason, in that chamber he calls home?
My brilliant (or doomed) hypothesis:
So at first I didn't get how, if that was Locke's body in the trunk Ilana had, and the apparently resurrected Locke was really the unnamed nemesis of Jacob's we saw in the cold open — the darker yin to his optimistic ying... I didn't get how it was that the nemesis could only take Locke's form if Locke were dead and returned to the Island. The rules can be whatever we're told they are, sure, but the particulars seemed weird — until they clicked as astoundingly familiar.
He's Smokey. Which explains so much!
There are indeed two sides in this war, black and white like the backgammon pieces Locke showed Walt in Season One, and they belong to Jacob and his opposite-number brother, who for lack of a better name I'll still call Smokey. Christian's specter was indeed usurping Jacob's cabin, as Ilana surmised, instead of caretaking it as he suggested to Locke earlier, because the walking Christian is the walking Locke is the walking Yemi is Smokey is the wannabe Cain to Jacob's Abel, or, heck, the Esau to Jacob's Jacob. He wasn't Walt, since Walt was alive and we can chalk that up to his as-yet-undefined powers, and he's not Claire, who now I'm thinking didn't die in that house in New Otherton but rather was perhaps saved by Smokey at the moment of death, in the image of Christian, and given the kind of eternal life that Jacob gave Richard. Smokey's manifestation of Alex to Ben and what he/she/it said to him about trusting Locke was just another step in him manipulating the manipulator (and if Ben ever finds out that he was played like he played Sawyer, one supreme bullshitter to another, he's gonna be ticked).
I'm sorry to post without even reading your recap yet, Nikki, and I promise that I'll do so now, then post the rest of my thoughts with replies. The Smokey thing is something that I wanted to get out there unadulterated — not to claim credit, since it's likely either ridiculous or something thousands of other people are posting across the Internet tonight, but to maybe-possibly chime in with something for once that isn't just fed by or in response to the other genius fans who comment here.
so much to process/ can the eason really be over?
Good recap, but it can't beat the episode (like it ever could right?).
There was some thought on other sites that Jacob was never in the cabin, that it was the other one and Ilana was actually going there to show him Locke.
Also, we the view of the statue, some believe it to be Sobek. Check it out.
I have so many comments but I'll wait until morning. in the meantime, here are three comments from your post.
• Jack telling Richard not to give up on Locke. Interesting that just when Jack finally believes in Locke, it’s no longer Locke, apparently.
But some would say it is. He started believing before Locke was dead. He doesn't know the new Locke. But the case could be made that the spirit within the new Locke is what caused Locke to make a believer out of Jack.
• This is the second season that ended with a big revelation of Locke lying dead in a box. I love that two seasons ago we went, “OMG, Locke is dead!” and now two seasons later we’re going, “OMG, Locke is dead!!” Only on Lost.
That was only last season, two seasons ago was the flash-forward. So really, it's twice in a row that Locke appears dead in the finale!
Bram refers to Lapidus as a yahoo, which is what Sawyer called him when he came to the helicopter at the end of season 4.personally, i can think of no bigger insult to call someone than a "yahoo".
wow ... what a ride. y'know, i'm supposed to be packing for a 2.5 week long trip to europe tomorrow, but i can't think straight because of this bloody episode!
i LOVED the shout out to charlie with the driveshaft ring (i remember when he left it in aaron's crib, thinking, "well, that's dumb, what if aaron picks it up and tries to eat it and chokes on it?") -- i was sad that it was just abandoned and never mentioned again, or we never got to see clare find it. so this was awesome. :)
i also loved the shout out to clare -- we knew she was sitting out season 5 and would be back in season 6, but it was nice to have that reminder that they haven't forgotten about her.
rose! bernard! VINCENT! i want to go on record right now saying i think rose and bernard are the adam and eve skeletons. i've always thought that, but after tonight, something about their storyline just cemented it for me.
i'm hoping at some point in season 6, preferably sooner rather than later, they address the fact that ileana and her crew torched the hut and likely started a massive forest fire. because if the island wasn't about to go kablooey via bomb, it sure as heck should go kablooey on account of someone setting off a raging fire and leaving it to burn out of control and entirely unattended.
the thing that made me bash my head against the wall -- okay, there were actually two things*, but the first thing was, jack, hurley, miles and jin are in a big rush to get sayid some help and then they're held up by sawyer, kate and juliet. and rather than TELL THEM hey, remember sayid? our friend? whom we've known since the beginning? he's been shot and is likely gonna die, so can we just put the squabbling about the bomb aside til we fix him?, jack didn't even mention it. at all. in fact, he decided to take a little coffee break and go mano-a-mano with sawyer in the jungle instead. WTF? and then, later, it dawned on me ... he likely thought that if he set off the bomb, it wouldn't really matter if he fixed sayid or not, because they'd all die/the 1977 versions of them would be rendered moot. but still ... jack not even acknowledging sayid as he lay there dying before he (jack) marched off towards the swan with the bomb? not cool, jack. not cool.
*the second thing that annoyed me: all of this for ... KATE? really, jack? REALLY? i actually shouted at my TV when he said that. stupid boy.
little kate was a dead ringer for big kate and had the most beautiful green eyes.
i loved that jacob visited them all -- i guessed that after his visit to little kate, and i was right. in his visits, he seemed to genuinely care about each of them and to genuinely be kind and sincere, but i still get the impression it was all some sort of subtle manipulation. hmmm.
as a massive dexter fan, i was cackling that paul (rita's evil ex) was all of a sudden reinvented as god-on-earth. heh. and on the other hand, we have tony tucci, the ice truck killer's innocent, naive security guard victim transformed into the possibly sinister bram.
loved the fade to white at the very end. it reminded me of desmond turning the key and the hatch imploding and the purple/white blinding light.
loved that we finally got to see the statue in all its glory (and the black rock in its, too!).
overall, i loved the ep, except for jack's ridiculous declaration about kate (and i say this as neither a jack/kate nor sawyer/kate shipper ... the only couples i've ever shipped on this show are rose/bernard and charlie/clare). it's going to be a looooong 8 months!
and now, off to pack!
Great recap Nikki! I am amazed how quickly you got this up!
Wow, loved this episode. I thought it was amazing! So many answers and so many more questions. I was just about to ask again why Ben wanted Locke to stop pressing the button in the Hatch but I just realized Jacob had probably told him to do it.
Quick note: "angry man in black" used Ceasars term "my friend"...and so did one other person...Lapidus!!! I'm thinking he might not be a good guy after all, but I hope he is. I really like him.
I'll have to come back here tomorrow morning when I'm not falling asleep because I have so many questions and I'm sure some of you might have some pretty good thoughts/theories.
Nikki,
Loved your thoughts on this episode.I feel the same as you,I LOVE LOST but what a whallop to the heart to see Juliet pounding on Jughead core and then hearing a quick flash sound and the titles go to white.I rewatched it immedialtey and fast forwarded through the commercials and thought it played better the second time.
Sign me up for re-watching season 1-5 this summer.I laways do anyway and it would be an honor to discuss them with you and your fellow readers.Take care.
What a finale! Great recap, as usual. Do you think Juliet will make it to, at least, that start of season 6? Her detonating the bomb was very reminiscent of Desmond turning the fail-safe key, thus leaving it up in the air as to his fate during the season 2 to season 3 hiatus. I love Elizabeth Mitchell to death and my wishful thinking is hoping that she survived, but then again she DID detonate a hydrogen bomb.
I loved all of the references to previous episodes in the finale, as well. I thought it was a GREAT reversal to have Locke hand, a nervous and terrified, Ben a knife to kill Jacob; just as Ben once handed, an equally nervous and terrified, Locke a knife to kill Anthony Cooper.
As for the big Not-Locke reveal. Awesome. Have you see The Skeleton Key? The twist in that movie is a lot like the twist in the finale. It's all about reincarnation and souls moving from one body to another.
Wow- amazing episode!
I was also dissapointed by Rose's response to seeing her friends, I expected more. But- I was excited to see her, Vincint, and Bernard.
But what happened to Sayid?! Does he live?! Die?! What's going on?
Miles grows on me every week, I can't believe I didn't like him when he first started coming around. Now's he's super funny.
And- I LOVE love love the idea of watching lost through the summer/fall to get caught up. We/I'll learn so much watching the beginning again and it would be a great way to get excited for the next season. I can't believe it isn't starting until January- very dissapointing.
Stunning. Absolutely stunning episode.
@Blam: I think you're bang-on there, brother. Smokey-Christian told Locke to turn the wheel and die. and if the Man in Black is Smokey/Christian/Yemi etc., then that makes perfect sense. Good call!
Nikki, your Latin translation was waaaay better than mine LOL The best i got was "He and we all being saved", which sounds cryptic enough for Lost, but probably isn't right.
So, Locke is really, truly and utterly dead? NOOOO! I refuse to believe it. After all, Christian's body was never recovered. So I'm still holdin out for my bald-headed hero to come through in Season 6.
The fade to white was mind-blastingly awesome, and I literally gasped when it happened. I cringe when I think of how far January is from now...:(
Nikki, I am 100% on board with your re-watching idea. Keep me posted!
And don't worry, I won't leave for the next eight months. I'm checkin up on Nik@Nite as often as possible!
hey Nikki , love your books and blogs! could you please put a picture of the statue up I didn't get to see that part due to severe weather cut ins I was so upset- and i missed the dialog between Locke and Jacob and Ben could someone post that please? Thanks for all your hard work this season.
I am thinking the statue was blown away by the blast from the H-bomb.
WOW! WHAT a fantasticallyphenominal
finale!
Ok~if Locke really didn't get brought back to life, how is it that Christian is alive & kickin'? I thought that he was brought back to life, since John was. Or, THOUGHT he was!
Honestly, did anyone see THAT coming?!
I actually went 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!'
when the screen went to white!
LOVED how Jack & Sawyer beat the everlivin' C R A P out of each other!
I haven't really liked Juliet since
she intruded & was made a regular. BUT! I was really sad to see her get pulled down the hole! Poor ol' Sawyer. How sad! Hope this makes him revert back to his good ol' bad ol' self AGAIN! I have missed the wise-ass that he was up until Dharmaville!
CANNOT wait til (ALMOST A FULL YEAR) for *sniff, sniff* the last season EVER!
Sigh!
Thanx for all the great info you give us! You bring to light things I miss! Then, I go~'Oh, yeah! That's right! I remember, now!'
Aloha!
LoyallyLOST
Wow. Unbelievable. What a great, mind-blowing episode...Nikki, I still don't know how you do it; how you're able to post so quickly after an episode, and offer so much insight...you catch so many things and it totally makes me want to go back and rewatch episodes! (I totally don't remember about Chang's arm--but if he really did hurt his arm, doesn't that suggest that Jack really DID create "the incident"? That "whatever happened, happened"?) I'll definitely be following along during the Seasons 1-5 re-recaps!
Wow. And so many d'oh moments too! When Jack dropped the bomb and nothing happened, and then Juliet finally got it right and then dammit, white flash. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!
Ha ha, Miles is awesome. I too, can't believe I didn't like him at first!
LOL, Phil's death as satisfying as Nikki and Paolo!
Oh my goodness, such greatness. How do the writers keep doing it, season after season???
So what the hell is in the guitar case? Can't just be a guitar. And damn, how come the box dead-Locke is in (I am sooooo confused about the undead-Locke) is so freakin' big?
I don't envy you trying to process everything in time to get up such a readable, let along thoughtful, insightful post, Nikki, when the rest of us have the benefit of waiting until you do and then playing off of what you've written.
Fantastic job, tonight as always, and definitely not the end!
If you guessed, “These are all about JERKS” then you guessed correctly!
Nikki, I am so impressed (and more than a little surprised) that you stopped at "jerks", because -- while I'm not usually the swearing type myself -- I was thinking something that rhymes with "grass-mole".
Man says, “It always happens the same.” Jacob says, “But it only happens once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.” Strange words.
Actually, the other man says, "It always ends the same." Jacob is correcting him when he says, "But it only ends once." The way you heard it is interesting (and very "All this has happened before...") but what I think Jacob is saying is that until it ends for good, until humanity is wiped out or until Jacob is no longer there to conduct the experiments, then there is hope for humanity to progress or evolve to the point where an experiment doesn't end in destruction and corruption, or at least for Jacob to find a singular batch of humans who turn away from that path, (if this is something akin to finding ten righteous people in Sodom).
A possible answer to Anonymous' question about whether Sayid lives or dies...I assumed that the fact that he was wearing an overall with 'Horace/Mathematician' on it means that it is his dessicated corpse in the pit where Locke finds it with the diagram in the pocket. In whichever episode that was, I can't remember at this late hour.
During the scene when Ben killed Jacob, I totally was thinking about The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (Narnia; the book, not the movie, although the lastest movie version was pretty good). Maybe it's Jacob's fuzzy reddish/blond hair and facial hair that looks slightly lionish?
In that book, the witch thinks that she found a loophole of sorts too - and so Aslan gives himself over to her and she stabs him to death. He even allows the witch to mock him, and he says nothing. In the same way, Jacob stays pretty quiet, doesn't answer Ben's accusations, and seems to provoke Ben into stabbing him.
Yet, in the book, the witch was wrong - Aslan would come back to life if he willing gave himself up as a sacrifice ('there's a deeper magic'). I wonder if the same thing will happen to Jacob - he seemed to be willing give himself up (look at the raw sadness in his eyes as Ben accused him) - so maybe there is a 'deeper magic' on the Island and Jacob is resurrected and then there is peace.
Before the resurrected Aslan shows himself to everyone and banishes the Witch, there is a great battle between the witch/her underlings and Aslan's friends/good guys. Maybe that's what season six will be all about?
Hopefully this makes sense. It's super late and I am only half awake.
Nikki - I've got a toddler too - sure appreciate these blogs, I know what's its like to sacrifice sleep when there are kids involved - hope you have someone to look after them in the morning so you can catch up on sleep!
- Alicia
Did anyone else notice that the foot from the 4-toed statue was the wrong foot? The first time we see it in season 2 it was clearly the right foot but when we see it in this episode it is the left foot. I wonder why?
Wow what a Unbelievable Finale Episode, the best Lost Finale EVER!
when Ben stabbed Jacob to death and Locke kicked him in the fire, that was so breathtaking then one minute later we see Juliet still alive when she starts banging that bomb with the rock, I went Crazy!
But my mouth is still open when I saw Locke in the crate box, this new Locke will create a brand new storyline for season 6, I just cant wait!
Agh!! I can't get to sleep rehashing it in my head.
One major point I wanted to discuss-I don't buy that Ben never had contact with Jacob before. I think that's what he wanted "evil Locke" to believe? Why would Richard never have taken Ben to the statue to see Jacob? Why did Ben take Locke to the cabin back when. Why the cabin and not the statue? I think the voice that said help me to John was dressed in black guy, not Jacob.
Also-why did Ilana's people not show more concern with Locke if they knew dead-Locke was in the box?
Did Jacob actually touch Sayid in the flashback?
Any chance that part of what happened was setup by Ben/Jacob?
And I just can't figure Widmore and Hawkings roles in this. If Eloise is good and Widmore is bad, why did she also encourage Daniel to go back to the island.
I don't agree that Chang's arm injury was a result of what Jack did. The electromagnetic incident happened before the bomb went off-the bomb that Jack threw in didn't go off until after Juliet's heart wrenching fall. I cried like a baby!
Oh-and that reminds me of one more question-the whole fixation Ben had with Juliet...and how she (Juliet) looked just like "her"...and Ben's line about her having always been his?
Hmmm...Any possibility of Ben somehow being Jacob and thus why he could have been playing dumb with "evil Locke"?
Hope that wasn't too much of a ramble. Had to get these thoughts off my chest or I'd never fall asleep!
I have no idea when I'll get to rewatch the episode, since it'll be all I can do to keep up with the comments tomorrow, so let me throw more stuff out now with apologies for anything that might be misquoted or misperceived.
The great lines:
Sawyer: "This don't look like LAX."
Rose: "We've traveled back 30 years in time ... And you people are still trying to shoot each other."
Locke: "You mind if I ask you a question?"
Ben: "I'm a pisces."
Jack: "We're not going back in time."
Miles: "Right. Because that would be ridiculous."
Ben: "What about me?"
Jacob: "What about you?"
Most were funny, Rose's was poignant, and the last was the wrong thing for Jacob to say to Ben at that moment. Ouch! And that refers to both Jacob's comment and the stabbing. Do you think Jacob knew Ben had the knife and was egging him on, Christ to Judas, as if the betrayal or just the death were ordained or at least necessary in some way?
The high points:
We got Jacob. In fact, we got a Jacob flashback. Screw Richard's backstory, 'cause we got a Jacob flashback!
I just IMDB'd actor Mike Pellegrino because -- as the producers may have been hoping -- he seemed familiar but I couldn't quite place him. Never having seen Dexter (no Showtime, too much other good TV to watch via Netflix), I only knew his face from one- or two-episode guest turns here and there. He also reminds me of a couple other actors. What was unsettling, though, was how much he projected both positive serenity and a vague sinister feeling. For most of the episode, I didn't think the latter was intentional (maybe just a by-product of where I'd seen him before), but that episode with Nadia seemed cold; I've tried to tell myself that if he hadn't stopped Sayid, then Sayid would've been hit too, but it seemed like Nadia was only in danger because Sayid dallied on the curb (although she paused in the street long enough that it was still either some reckless driving on the part of the truck that didn't stop or an intentional hit).
We got Rose. We got Bernard. We got Vincent. (I'm not a dog person, but he's a good boy.)
I loved their Zen calm and acceptance of, to coin a phrase, "whatever happens, happens". Not only was the explanation of where they'd been for three years very in character, their choiceful removal from the scrambling and conflict served as a meta-commentary on the actors' and characters' absence. You could see a wistful understanding of the path they took on Juliet's face and in James' very un-Sawyer-like silent touching of Rose's hand before they left.
We got at least an inkling of why all of our protagonists' lives are connected.
I have despaired of this never being explained on the series at all, and when it dawned on me that Jacob was visiting the castaways it was a hallelujah moment. We're almost certainly meant to infer from the opening act that Jacob brought Oceanic 815 to the Island just as he did that ship on the horizon (which I didn't necessarily assume was The Black Rock, by the way, partly because the scene felt so ancient and the statue was still standing). And even though as Nikki indicates we didn't see Jacob approach Hurley and Sayid until after their return from the Island, absent any other information I will choose to assume that Jacob had a hand in the castaways' interconnections as well as their presence on 815. The promo for next seasons, however, contained the D-word -- Destiny -- so perhaps we'll see more on this subject after all.
Problems and questions:
I think these are gonna have to wait, actually. I'm going back and forth between my original ideas and replies to Nikki's thoughts, and I'd rather post some of the latter before crashing.
I just figured out who Jacob, or Mike Pellegrino, reminds me of, particularly when he has that smile that reads as part smug, part serene, part "I just wet my pants but I'm fine with it." He looked a little like a lot of people to me, from Steve Zahn to some obnoxious comic, but the one I couldn't put my finger on was Michael Ian Black. Ding!
Also, I've already rethought my Smokey theory, only insofar as Claire could have flat-out died and Smokey could be manifesting as both Christian and Claire, since he manifested as Rousseau's crewmates and as Alex (who all died on the Island, not off like Christian and Locke).
Nikki: We discover Jacob actually goes out of his way to bring people to the island, as if having them “come, fight, destroy, corrupt,” is all a game to him.
For me it felt less like a game and more like him trying to prove something to himself, to his evil twin, or to whatever higher power might be responsible for them.
Nikki: He visits Kate when she’s a child, touching her when he hands her the lunchbox
Wasn't that girl spot-on? I doubt even Evangeline Lilly looked that much like herself at that age. And the demeanor was perfect.
Nikki: the same [lunchbox] she and her buddy Tommy will later bury under a tree as a time capsule, along with his toy plane, right before he’s shot and killed as she’s trying to visit her mom
This is one reason why I'm thrilled to be hashing out episodes with this group. I never would've picked this up without reading it somewhere (granted, I'd have found out in Nikki's book, but now is even better). And it just reinforces my hopes that I'll be able to keep up with the series-to-date viewings and discussions, although three a week sounds pretty tough, especially if they're spaced out (trust me, that makes sense).
Nikki: Were [Jacob's visits] to get those people on the plane? If so, how did Hurley and Sayid get on the plane, if he only visited them AFTER they returned from the island?
Jacob probably didn't visit everyone who ended up on Oceanic 815. Hurley (who, remember, wasn't on "Jacob's list") and Sayid could've been incidental, but once they had survived the 815 crash and returned to the outside world it was important for Jacob to get them to return on the Ajira flight. I'm hoping that Jacob did visit those two and other familiar faces before the first flight, as well as Desmond, because as I said above I want the spiderweb of connectivity explained, but there's my explanation for the scenes we saw.
Nikki: Sawyer says they’re looking at the north shore. Kate argues that the sun is setting on the wrong side for that to be the case. Sawyer asks her if she has a compass. Juliet looks longingly at the departing sub while listening to them flirt. The look on her face says, “Just kill me now.”
Best. Stage directions. Ever. I wouldn't be surprised if the script read exactly that way, except not as good.
Nikki: Bernard: “We just care about being together.” Bernard looks at Rose, Rose looks at Bernard. Juliet looks at Sawyer. Sawyer looks at... Kate. Kate looks at a leaf.
Seriously, who are you, Rachel Ack now?
Nikki: Miles once again speaks for the fans, suggesting something fans have speculated about for weeks, that maybe Jack causes the incident, rather than stops it.
A little too late, though... I'd already typed up some notes on a commercial break asking why he and Hurley hadn't dropped some time-travel and paradox knowledge on their friends, but that's for tomorrow.
Nikki: I guess we now know why Marvin Candle has a prosthetic arm!
That was one of three laugh-out-loud moments for me, which I admit is kinda morbid.
Nikki: What did Bram mean when he asked if Frank was a candidate?
Jacob eats people -- but only really tasty people.
I think that means I'm done for tonight. 8^)
Holy Jesus. I mean that. This episode was so dense yet it answers nothing lol. Like you speculated, Nikki, I think the stranger-in-black=Smokey=Locke=Christian. This is in some loose form, but they all seem to be manevolent influences going against Jacob and his beliefs.
Oops...one more thing. If Christian is a form of Smokey, and Locke is a resurrected form of stranger-in-black, they could potentially be two separate entities.
HOWEVER, Smokey lets Ben live, and this makes me think it did that so Ben would kill Jacob later.
Its almost 6am in the morning on Thursday and you have 26 comments already Nik, WHOA!
Gotta head off to the gym, just a few quick thoughts...
Loved your recap, I too will be in withdrawal more than last year I think.
If someone could explain this "Non-Locke" to me, I'm confused! I know Locke is really dead but who is New Locke? I must say the mythology part of dead or not dead really goes over my head! That scene with his body coming out of the box, I'm like WTF??? :)
Juliet's fall broke my heart. I assume if everyone is still alive after the flash, she might be as well. I love me some Elizabeth Mitchell, it would be a shame not to have her back for S6. Her proclaiming her love to Sawyer...sigh...I think he really realized he loved Juliet in the end and not Kate...
I loved how the Lost screen became WHITE as opposed to BLACK all the other times. Where will our Losties be next season and when will they be?
Is Sayid really dead? I too was ticked when Jack suddenly decided to take a little pissing break with Sawyer while his friend is bleeding out. Nice on ya doc! LOL
Is Jacob going to still be a big part of S6 if he really was killed by Ben?
I was bummed Jin and Sun didn't reunite, but at least they weren't killed off!
I knew the producers wouldn't let us down with Rose and Bernard, and the DS ring of Charlie was such a nice touch.
Thank you Nik for being our guide for 5 seasons. You have truly illuminated many aspects of the show and enhanced Lost immensely! Your husband is right, you are a geek, but you are OUR geek, and we love ya!!!
The biggest shocker - I actually started to like Jack.
Damn you Lost, damn you!
Thanks for all your hard work this season Nikki - my only regret is that I joined the party so late.
Did anyone notice Juliet touch her stomach protectively at one point?
Flashback to season 1 finale when all season long we waited to see what was in the hatch and the last shot was Locke and Jack looking down it.
So, this woman (Juliet) decides to change course 180 degrees and go back to the island and risk many people's lives and possibly change the course of history because she THINKS she saw her boyfriend give his ex a "look". That's...just about the most realistic thing in this whole show.
The Ben/Jacob scene made me think of the first Star Wars movie. "If you strike me down Dar... I mean, Ben, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
-Tim
Unfortunately it looks like the love traingle will be alive and well next season. Yawn.
It's been said before but I love the way Lost is going full circle - or is it a spiral? Juliet's 'death' is akin to Charlie's - sacrificing themselves in water (although for Juliet it was just a puddle)
Jack is back to being the hero and Sawyer back to being out for himself (kind of)
Kate's back to being stuck in a Jack and Sawyer sandwich.
Hurley's saving people in Dharma vans.
The Jerk suffers an horrific yet amusing death.
Someone loses an arm (nearly)
etc etc.......
('ll no doubt be back with more)
I want to marry Dalton too (and I'm single so back off Nikki) They are the masters of manipulating their audience.
That amazing scene just before Jack drops the bomb - and then the biggest anti climax EVER when nothing happens. I was so expecting the screen to go white at that point, but they made us wait for it didn't they?
I hate to say it but Lost is like really good sex (probably better than really good sex) where the pleasure is in the anticipation. And now we get 8 months of anticipation which is a bit too much foreplay quite frankly.
Awesome episode, loved the Locke's dead!!! deja-vu and while initally annoyed about ending I have to admit it's done its job - can't wait til 2010!!!!! plus that first hour I was like, so what's going on! - a couple of things though ...
Don't think new Locke is Smokey - surely he woulda known about Alex telling Ben to do everything Locke says?
Who'd eye did we glimpse at the end? Was it Kate or Julliet? Hmmm
Best opening ever! Had to check I was watching the right thing first of all lol
Nikki, how have you managed to put up any write up so quickly? Well done.
It was an alright finale. A bit anti climax for me but then I had been reading all Michael Emersons interviews so I expected the world :)
I love that Jacob visited all our original losties and TOUCHED them. He did not visit Juliet and the Island is done with her. She may return in fbs but that's it for Juliet. Did you guys watch the clip before the finale? Most informative clip ever. They set the ground for next season and this finale. I love Jacob. We could not have waited all this while only to have him die the same episode we meet him? LOL. He must return.
So our Losties are Jacobs soldiers? They are the "they" in "they are coming." That's my theory atleast.
I love the discussion Juliet had with sawyer. She really laid out what their whole relationship is about. Loyalty. Sawyer would stay with Juliet if she let him. He did not look at Juliet while Rose and Bernard waxed lyrical about being together forever and with all she had been guessing, that was enough to tell Juliet that, this man is a good man but he is not for her. Just like her parents before her.
I don't want to believe Jack did all this for Kate. I think he said why he was doing it and then when sawyer asked another question he answered about Kate. Jack realises its over with Kate and even acknowledges that when he resets time, if she is meant to be in cuffs, then so be it. This, before the fight I have been waiting for, for 5 years and I loved every minute of it.
I thought the Juliet death scene was OTT. I really did not feel bad because I knew she was going to have to leave one way or the other. I feel bad for sawyer. He keeps watching people he loves die infront of him. Again, another interesting parallel and further justifies what I have said about the Sawyer/Juliet relationshoip. It was one based on friendship, loyalty, lack of options but also on mommy issues. The loss of sawyers parents could be said to be a parallel to the loss of Juliet. The mother saying ILU as she died and sawyer watching it happen.
@Nikki-I thought it was fitting that Kate looked at Jack and sawyer looked at Juliet. Those are the two people that either have spent the most of the last 3 years with. Each couple had just had serious heart to heart talks. It made sense. It did not make me think, oh, thats who they love when they thought it was the end. Do not forget, it's not the end. They are not dying. Just resetting time.
I think Damon and carlton made it clear from the clipshow that Kate loved/loves Sawyer and kept Aaron to heal the emotional scar left by losing Sawyer. I said this after WHH and had people screaming projection at me. Why would they waste a Kate-centric episode projecting the feelings of another character? A minor one at that. Kate loves Sawyer. Right now she does not think she stands a chance again and Aaron is more important than anything. Which is why Jack once again uses that to get her to go along with him.(Not a man you want to know your weaknesses)
Sawyer loves Kate but has moved on with Juliet and never thought Kate loved him. Juliet has snapped him out of his self induced hypnosis. so whether she had lived or not, Sawyer and Juliet were over. It is sad that it is the despair of losing James that led Juliet to go along with a plan that eventually killed her. Sawyer will have to wrestle with that next season because he will remember why Juliet said she changed her mind. Funny how after that talk, they changed to their original relationship. She was now "blondie" and he was snarky Sawyer again.
Jack has accepted that its too late for him and Kate. Next season, Kate and Sawyer will be "free to be you and me" (the theme that Kitsis teased as that of season 6)and so will all the characters as they discover their fates and realise their individual and collective destiny.
Sonshinemusic, I won my bet and I would like appropriate kudos now :)
The more I muse on it, the more it feels like the flash was a time-jump that will "capture" the relevant parties back to the future... well, present... well, past, actually, since it's only 2004 there. Could it be the nuke? Sure. Could it be an EM pulse like when Desmond turned the key? Yeah. Could it be whatever happened when something, Jacob maybe, grabbed Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid from the Ajira flight and brought them back to 1977? Methinks it's that, wrapped up with the nuke and the EM and a frustratingly über-cliffhangery way to end the season.
Nikki: just when Jack finally believes in Locke, it’s no longer Locke, apparently.
I'm with Benny on this. Jack doesn't know that Locke was apparently resurrected, so he's still talking about the Locke he and we knew, whom he believes (and turns out he's right) died to get the Oceanic 6 back to the Island. Unfortunately, Richard ends up carrying this commendation from Jack over to both pre-bloop Locke in 2004 and Smokey-as-Locke in 2007.
Benny: There was some thought on other sites that Jacob was never in the cabin, that it was the other one and Ilana was actually going there to show him Locke.
Hmm... I like it — I mean, I actually don't, 'cause I don't want Richard to be in league with who/what I think is the bad guy, but I like the creativity and plausibility. Also, I don't get why the one glimpse we got of Jacob was him old and bearded when he clearly prefers to be seen the way we saw him this episode, and he even appeared young to Ilana when he asked for her help, which was probably after or at least around the time he appeared in the cabin to Locke. So the bearded guy could've been one of Esau's many forms (hey, as good a name as any).
Benny: the statue, some believe it to be Sobek.
Now that sounds Vulcan, eh?
The Question Mark: After all, Christian's body was never recovered.
I was just thinking about Locke's body in that chest and realizing that it means Christian's body is out on the Island somewhere -- if it didn't sink in the ocean, burn with the fuselage, or get disposed of by Smokey Esau.
pattyjean: I assumed that the fact that [Sayid] was wearing an overall with 'Horace/Mathematician' on it means that it is his dessicated corpse in the pit where Locke finds it with the diagram in the pocket.
Ooh... That's really interesting, but it would mean that the flash hasn't changed history; that Sayid was left behind if the flash transported Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Hurley, Miles, Jin, and (if she's alive) Juliet back to the future, in which case he's dead, because we know from Charlotte that dead bodies don't travel; and that either Sayid's body was kept around in that jumpsuit until the massacre or, more likely, the bodies in the mass grave are from the Incident and not the later massacre that some people have opined didn't even happen. All of this is entirely possible.
asiancolossus: If someone could explain this "Non-Locke" to me, I'm confused!
I think we're to assume that the Locke body Ilana had was the one from the coffin, so it's just plain dead Locke. My theory is that Jacob's would-be homicidal (fratricidal?) nemesis from the cold open, whom I'm calling Esau, is one and the same as Smokey. Esau/Smokey can take the form of dead people and only dead people; taking the form of Locke was his best shot at getting himself and an accomplice close enough to Jacob to get Jacob killed, as Locke had through some self-fulfilling time-loopiness been suggested as chosen leader of the Natives/Others/"Jacobites" by Richard. While Smokey/Esau might have been able to get Locke killed on the Island, dispose of his body, and take his place then and there, it probably was genuinely necessary for Locke to turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel and undo the damage done when Ben turned it. Alternately, since it was actually Christian (what I believe to be Smokey/Esau as Christian) in Jacob's shack telling Locke to turn the wheel instead of Jacob himself saying it, it's possible that he thought Ben would kill Locke before even arriving at the Orchid or something. I confess that since Smokey is apparently able to take the form people who died on the Island, like Alex and the French crew and maybe Claire, and not only people brought to it dead, like Yemi and Christian and now Locke, I'm unsure as to whether and why Locke had to die off-Island. He did have to make it look like Locke was really resurrected, though, since I don't recall Ben being mind-bogglingly surprised seeing Smokey manifest as Alex we can assume that at least some folks, Ben and probably Richard among them, know that Smokey has this ability and might suspect Locke as that entity.
Snoochies: Don't think new Locke is Smokey - surely he woulda known about Alex telling Ben to do everything Locke says?
Exactly! Ben left "Locke" behind, went to summon Smokey, had "Alex" tell him to follow "Locke" and not-not-not try to kill him again, and then returned upstairs and went outside to have "Locke" act all innocent. Clark Kent and Superman have done this many times, usually without the threatening, just making Lois Lane look like a chump (yes, in this analogy Ben is Lois Lane). Remember how folks even pointed out that Ben said something frightening was in the jungle, or whatever, only to have "Locke" humorously, anti-climactically emerge from the brush all innocent-like?
flexible: I think Damon and Carlton made it clear from the clipshow that Kate loved/loves Sawyer and kept Aaron to heal the emotional scar left by losing Sawyer.
Yeah. I was really surprised by, and hated, that.
flexible: Sawyer will have to wrestle with that next season because he will remember why Juliet said she changed her mind.
Guess what? I was surprised by, and hated, that too.
Either Juliet was right, which didn't ring true for me, or she was paranoid and surprisingly unperceptive on the point, which I took to be the case, and that lost me respect for the character. We did get that somewhat gratuitous flashback to her parents' announcement of divorce to set up her later line about people loving each other but not being meant to be together; eh, things ain't that simple. A point I keep forgetting to bring up, by the way: I think just the first hour was Jacob flashbacks and the second technically a Juliet episode with just that one flashback, which is odd.
Folks have commented on Elizabeth Mitchell's silent acting over the last few episodes as Kate has come back into Sawyer's life. I've noticed it too, and I don't think the situation was devoid of emotional conflict, but we also had repeated moments over the past couple of episodes wherein Sawyer has driven home his desire for, and commitment to, the life he built with Juliet and his genuine love for her. I really don't like either the suggestion that she didn't, or couldn't, accept that he felt that way or the suggestion that it wouldn't have lasted because of James' own wandering eye or heart.
Like FB above, the only relationships I've rooted for have been Rose/Bernard and Charlie/Claire; I get sick of hearing the neologism "'ship" and coinages like "Jater" make my skin crawl (this from a Mulder/Scully fan who thought their home life was the only thing remotely enjoyable about the last X-Files movie, so I'm not opposed to the concept of wanting characters to end up together). I think that when Sawyer and Juliet were thrown together after Jack and Kate left it was forced and obvious, but when their domestic bliss was revealed "Three Years Later" it was sweet; the actors sold it, and the characters had earned it. What bugs me about the Juliet stinkeye and minor-key hissy fit in the finale is not that my theoretical desires for these two or those two to be together weren't fulfilled but that the narrative first dithered about where it wanted to project James/Sawyer's heart as being and then seemed to give Juliet a position counter to the choice it felt like he made.
I think everything went as it always went. Daniel sold Jack a bill of goods about being able to change the past.
The explosion released radiation on the Island which would later sicken Danielle's people and make the women unable to have children.
I think our Losties will all end up back in the future (won't Rose and Bernard be pissed.)
I fear for my Sayid. Big time.
Poor Sawyer. Who ever thought I'd say that back in season one (or two etc?)
I'm calling the other guy Esau too. Jacob stole Esau's (as the older brother) birthrite. Esau tried to kill him (though they eventually made up). Jacob's son Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt and eventually Jacob moved there.
I'm not saying Lost is Kings, but there seems to be a lot of simularity. (BTW, Kings was a great show, based on the story of Saul and David and I'm very ticked with NBC.)
What's Eloise connection with Esau? She was the one who said they had to bring Locke's body back.
For one answer, you get five new mysteries. How I love Lost.
My Theory: I think the other guy at th ebeginning was Esau and thats the smoke monster. I think John Locke died when 815 went down and Esau has been inhabiting his body to run the LONGEST CON in the show!!!
@Blam we also had repeated moments over the past couple of episodes wherein Sawyer has driven home his desire for, and commitment to, the life he built with Juliet and his genuine love for her. I really don't like either the suggestion that she didn't, or couldn't, accept that he felt that way or the suggestion that it wouldn't have lasted because of James' own wandering eye or heart.I don't like that suggestion either - I think Juliet's behaviour has been written that way in order to perpetuate the love triangle which annoys me.
However.....I think most women will agree with me that what we are interested in is what men DO and not what they SAY. No matter how many times Sawyer tells Juliet he has her back, he is still physically gravitating towards Kate. He did redeem himself somewhat at the very end though.
I began the season delighted that Sawyer was becoming the hero he always promised to be, but I've ended it - shock horror - not really liking him. I don't know why but I just don't like the way his character has been written this season.
By the way I forgot my favourite line:
ROSE: It's always something with you people.
I've just watched Sky One's 'the Lost Initiative' and Iain Lee says that there should be two Lost spin-off shows; one where Desmond time travels and solves crimes, the other where Miles and Hurley share a flat and try and pick up girls and get a job.
LOL!!!!
What an episode! And kudos on the post Nikki.
The ramifications of the Jacob/anit-Jacob struggle are so fascinating, I'm almost not disappointed that Jacob isn't someone we know, temporally displaced (almost). I can't wait to puzzle this all out and, of course, Jan. 2010 seems SO far away!
We know that Ben’s birthday is December 19, but the Pisces sign is for those born from February 20 to March 20.I wonder what the date was when he was taken to the temple and reborn? He always maintained he was "born" on the island, and now we know he was likely referring to that incident, so perhaps he's rethought his birthday? :)
And... apparently that was SO long you couldn’t memorize it?Ha! A friend of mine said the same thing.
The girl playing young Rachel looks a lot like older Rachel.Agreed! It was uncanny, as with the young Kate.
Anyone else think it was odd that Juliet's flashback was a non-Jacob one? The only flashback in the episode that didn't involve Jacob in some capacity. It seemed like a piece of Juliet's backstory (her parents got divorced and warped her perceptions of adult relationships) that they weren't able to fit in elsewhere, but needed to get it now, in order to explain her actions regarding her relationship with Sawyer (and because she was going to die soon).
I too have very little doubt that Rose and Bernard are the Adam and Eve skeletons in the cave. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if A. this was the last we'll see of them B. No additional comment is made, on the show, about the skeletons.
@Alicia: Good catch on the Narnia comparison. Jacob certainly didn't seem too concerned with his imminent death.
Blam: I definitely think that anti-Jacob=Smokey. It makes A LOT of sense.
But there's definitely something tragic and sad about all the times Locke was communing with the island, all the times he thought he was waking towards some grand destiny, he was just working in the service of the island's darkness, seemingly working against what he thought he was working for.
So I guess Richard IS one of the 'good guys', after all, despite what we feared last week. But at the cost of living Locke being one of the bad guys (and the real Locke being dead, and a chump). :(
Epic finale. I am now understanding LOST as a neo-creation myth, with the Island as a sort of Garden of Eden onto which is played out our most primitive good/evil origins as humans. So good and yummy.
Hello, my friends! Did anyone else have a very restless sleep last night? I kept dreaming of weird Lost moments, and none of them made any sense at all. And yet they probably all made more sense than Lost at the moment. ;)
David C: "I think I audibly cursed when Juliet blew up the bomb and the screen went white and the LOST logo came on and the clock read 10pm (CST)!"
Oh, I more than audibly cursed. I screamed, cursed loudly, covered my face, and my husband went, "BAAAAHAHAHAHAHA!" and pointed at me (he's not nearly as invested in the show as ANY of us on this board, he just likes to see how it tortures me).
I have taken the morning off work, so I'm all yours. Here we go!
Blam: I agree with you on the Smokey thing, and I love the speculations on here that the Man in Black is Esau. Well done! (AND... he was definitely, as Alan Bennett says in Beyond the Fringe, "An hairy man.")
Benny: "Good recap, but it can't beat the episode (like it ever could right?)."
Benny, you are officially dead to me.
OK, not really. ;)
fb: "i'm hoping at some point in season 6, preferably sooner rather than later, they address the fact that ileana and her crew torched the hut and likely started a massive forest fire."
You know, as soon as they wandered away I said to my husband, "Uh... I'm kinda with Lapidus on the whole burning down the forest thing?!" and my husband said that maybe because of the very wet tropical conditions, it's less likely to burn. I said, "But there's a giant tree and the main branch is IN the fire!" He said he's still pretty sure the wetness of it would stop it before it went too far. Anyone know anything more about this?
"remember sayid? our friend? whom we've known since the beginning? he's been shot and is likely gonna die, so can we just put the squabbling about the bomb aside til we fix him?"
I'm wondering if the reason they didn't say anything was, frankly, beyond getting the bomb to the site, Jack had no plans to save Sayid. He's a SURGEON... did he immediately rush him back to Dharmaville and try to extract the bullet? Save his life? No, he thinks the bomb is going to do it, they'll all go kablooey and end up back at LAX and Sayid will never have been shot etc. etc. So I'm thinking that's why Jack didn't say anything, because as far as he's concerned, the bomb IS the priority that will save Sayid's life.
Ali Bags:: I've just watched Sky One's 'the Lost Initiative' and Iain Lee says that there should be two Lost spin-off shows; one where Desmond time travels and solves crimes, the other where Miles and Hurley share a flat and try and pick up girls and get a job.
I like them both, especially the latter. "Hey, babe. Let's go back to my place. I like the waterbed, but I feel like your mom's watching us." "My mom's dead, freako."
Yesterday on my own blog I posted a truly terrible mock-up that a friend did for his own spinoff, set during Radzinsky's stint in the Hatch as he explores the Island post-Incident in the groovy late '70s. Paste this in your browser and scroll to the end if you're interested, since the groaner of a title may not be immediately recognizable out of context: http://blamken.blogspot.com/2009/05/lost-links-and-laughs.html
A friend has just reminded me that "present-day" Richard said he saw the Gang of '77 die, by the way, yet he left Jack and Sayid behind in the bomb cavern under Dharmaville -- where he was somehow going to take Unconscious Pregnant Gun-Toting Barbie back the way they came underwater (yeah, I know, he could wait underground until she wakes up, but that didn't sound like the plan).
He could've been lying to Sun in 2004.
He could've seen the flash or other signs of a somehow-contained explosion in the vicinity of where he knew they'd be, from a safe distance back at Camp Others, and assumed they went kablooey (a little different than "watch[ing] them die").
He could've been remembering what happened in the timeline that existed before the white nuke-or-spacetime-rift-or-something flash, which means that, if Juliet bashing the bomb core did change the course of human events, everything before that moment, including the Gang of '77's time-tossed adventures, was still presumably not abberant but always history.
brodal: "Great recap Nikki! I am amazed how quickly you got this up!"
Aw thanks. It didn't feel like I got it up quickly. I posted it around 1:45 a.m. and figured, man, this is WAY later than the midnight I suggested. Ugh. And then I went to bed, and was just dozing off when another point hit me and I threw the covers off and raced to the computer to add it in. Luckily there were no comments yet so I got it in quickly enough that no one seems to notice it wasn't there. :)
Gerald Orr: Thanks for being here!
"I feel the same as you,I LOVE LOST but what a whallop to the heart to see Juliet pounding on Jughead core and then hearing a quick flash sound and the titles go to white."
And how inspired was it that the credits were in white... just as the writers were at their most evil. An indication of Jacob, bathed in white, but maybe not what he seems?
Without a doubt, the best two hours of television this season.
Loved your recap.
There were so many great and memorable lines in this episode but the one that made me LOL was the look Rose gave them when she said "It's always something with you people."
It will probably take me a week to process all the new and different "loopholes" in the ever changing story of LOST.
Jono: "I loved all of the references to previous episodes in the finale, as well. I thought it was a GREAT reversal to have Locke hand, a nervous and terrified, Ben a knife to kill Jacob; just as Ben once handed, an equally nervous and terrified, Locke a knife to kill Anthony Cooper."
Absolutely! I even meant to go back to that episode to see if it was the same knife. And, unlike Locke, Ben followed through on it.
Anyone else notice that Locke has never been able to kill anyone in cold blood? He let the undercover cop walk away, he let Widmore run away, he couldn't kill Cooper, he walked away from Jack rather than shoot him at the end of season 3. Hm. Actually, no, he threw a knife into Naomi's back. That's the one time he's stepped out of his usual course. Maybe it's because he was so convinced she was the bad guy?
I just want to say again, Nikki, how refreshing your recaps are, how much I've enjoyed the books that brought me here, and how grateful I am to have become part of this forum -- it's your blog, I know, but the comments section to any given Lost post is often more heavily trafficked than some chat lists and bulletin boards I've frequented.
So many of your comments to this episode left me with nothing to add but "Yeah!" -- like your comments about Matthew Fox playing worn and defeated, or the catharsis of the "throwdown" between Jack and Sawyer.
The fight actually went a little far with the bloodshed for me. I'm glad to see violence have physical consequences, at least -- as well as moral ones, when appropriate -- but the bleeding in and of itself isn't realistic when Jack's just running around afterwards and barely flinching when Kate touches his face. Nobody's been beaten up harder and more often than Ben, probably, but I don't know if any show I watch has the raw-meat fist-on-face quotient of Lost in general. And while J.J. Abrams has little to do with day-to-day on the series I couldn't help but notice that, between weeks where I was practically willing the TV screen to stop Phil from beating Sawyer to a pulp and stop Jack and Sawyer from beating each other to a pulp, I was staring in disbelief at a movie screen in which Star Trek was bloodying up Captain Kirk more than it had in the past 40 years all together.
thanks for the recap. great work! I have to wonder... what time do you go to bed on Wednesday nights? you're always my first read on Thursday mornings.
personally, I loved the beginning, thought the middle was a bit slow and way too heavy on the love stories (what a waste of precious Lost-finale minutes!), and was incredibly frustated at the end. how can they leave us hanging like that! grrr.
First of all, let me say wow, still reeling. An incredible season finale, and I'm still in shock about Juliet. I haven't been this affected by a death on Lost ever, and that includes Charlie (an opinion that has just garnered me a clip over the ear from my beloved BatKitty).
OK, so, first of all, the spoiler I warned you all about last week on the Doc Arzt site: that Jacob could not have been Jack, as it was common knowledge (amongst the spoilerish, damn them) that Jacob had been cast for quite some time. Yes, it was the first comment after Nik's excellent column, and it was an effing pisser, as I was in the camp that thought that Jack WAS Jacob, and the discussion by Nik, and our various Lost experts (I'm looking in your direction Blam, Sonshine, Benny, and everyone else) was so good that I couldn't bring myself to say anything. Despite assurances by the site that the spoiler was speculative, it wasn't, and as someone that prefers to remain spoiler free, it was painful to watch the brilliant discussion and not be able to participate. A word of warning, fellow Lost afficionados: just read Nik @ Nite. It's safer, and much more fun. Nik hates spoilers more than anyone I know (Tara, how we mourned ye), you'll find none here. Down with spoilers!
Alright, on to the finale. Wow. A great finale, the first to have me on the edge of my seat (Juliet? REALLY?!!! You BASTARDS, DARLTON!) First off, I love any show that features former cast members of my all time favourite TV show, Deadwood, and now there's been five: Silas, Jane, Trixie (everytime I say that name, I see Johnny Burns pantomiming to Doc. Priceless), Joanie Stubbs ('whose bust features so prominantly in the minds of the camp), and EB, the greatest mayor of any town, ever. I was a little sad that Titus' role was so small (so to speak. I'm talking to you, Zombie Locke!), but there you go. Great opening, either way.
Batkitty pointed out that the diary was very dry just after being swum through into the bomb chamber. She's observant, is my love.
In the credits, I noticed (after my requisite 'BKV!' shouting) that the first ep was credited to 'Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse' and that the second was credited to 'Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof'. What's up with that? Does that mean that Damon wrote most of the first, and Carlton helped him, and the opposite for the second? Why couldn't they have just said 'written by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse'? I found that weird.
Nik: Oh Radzinsky. How happy am I knowing that you will eventually end up with a bullet in your brain? LOL! The note I have written about Radz this episode says simply 'Radzinsky is a dick. Big time.' HATE that guy!
Richard's not aging: Am I right in assuming that this is the first time that his not-aging has been referenced in the show?
I was gratified, and then utterly dismayed (once everything became clear... HA! What am I saying? Slightly clear. Less murky, maybe) about Jack going to bat for his one-time nemesis Locke. Very touching, and a great moment for Jack.
Jack going all cowboy and taking down at least 5 (was it five?) Dharma douches after Sayid was shot (redeem, I could here your cries of 'NOOOOOOOOOO' even here in Australia. You have my symapathies, my friend. :).
I found it kinda funny that Jin had to write down JUST ONE LINE that he had to remember. I guess he was nervous. :)
So did Jack's five minutes that he gave Sawyer include the walk to the secluded jungle spot they walked to? Because he was outta there in about two minutes. Patience, Man of Science!
All in all, a great season finale. I'm still a little unsure of some elements. Namely Illana and her band of Jacobites (you may have heard of them somewhere) and also that Zombie Locke is actually Zombie Silas-in-Locke's-Body, but I'll get there eventually. The biggest shock for me was that when Sayid got shot, BatKitty cried 'Oh no! That's one of my three guys!' I said 'What do you mean?' She said, 'You know, my guys. In order, they're Sawyer, Desmond, and Sayid.' 'Oh,' says I, 'so you mean 'four' guys.' 'Oh, right,' she says, 'four. You're number one. Then those three.' Made me feel special, it did. :)
Good morning everyone...
I don't know if it was mentioned, small point, but Jack was trying to buy an Apollo bar from the vending machine when he met Jacob...suddenly struck me this morning LOL
Anonymous: "But what happened to Sayid?! Does he live?! Die?! What's going on?"
I swear, every time the action cut to Sayid I moaned, "PLEASE don't kill Sayid. Please please please don't."
QuestionMark: "The fade to white was mind-blastingly awesome, and I literally gasped when it happened. I cringe when I think of how far January is from now...:("
Or February. UGH.
Anonymous: "hey Nikki , love your books and blogs! could you please put a picture of the statue up I didn't get to see that part due to severe weather cut ins I was so upset"
Oh, what a terrible night to have weather cut-ins!! I will definitely find a pic and post it for you.
Nikki: Haha! I knew I'd get a good reaction out of you! It was a great recap, you do a great job every week and I honestly can't wait for the book. It's the extra pieces of information that puts it over the top!
Anonymous: I am thinking the statue was blown away by the blast from the H-bomb. It think the statue wasn't there in 74 when Locke turned the wheel. I THINK
Chris Temple: It was the left foot in season 2 and is still the left foot here. When they first arrive at the statue and see the foot, you can see the right foot's support protruding from the structure.
Blam: Hahaha! Nice touch. I also have a comment about Richard in my main post.
Teebore: It was in July when Ben was brought to the temple, it's only a few days before these events and Sawyer says it's July 77.
LoyallyLost: "Ok~if Locke really didn't get brought back to life, how is it that Christian is alive & kickin'? I thought that he was brought back to life, since John was."
I'm thinking now that Christian was no more alive than Locke was. Perhaps Smokey Esau uses the bodies of other men to manipulate others. So he was probably embodying Christian the same way he is Locke.
Genevieve: Thanks for the kudos! Very sweet.
"I totally don't remember about Chang's arm--but if he really did hurt his arm, doesn't that suggest that Jack really DID create "the incident"? That "whatever happened, happened"?"
I think so. In the orientation videos, we always see Candle moving one arm around, while the other lies stiff and unmoving at his side. Then again, in one video it's the left, in the other it's the right, so it's not clear what's up there. But I'm assuming his arm getting caught under the scaffolding is why they're like that. Which means... he'll still be around to do the orientation videos? And Jack didn't change anything? I think you make an excellent point!
Blam: "Fantastic job, tonight as always, and definitely not the end!"
Thank you, my friend. I was sort of dreading it, knowing last night was going to be the toughest (and the longest) and I think I've barely scratched the surface here, but that's why I'm keen to discuss it now! :)
"Nikki, I am so impressed (and more than a little surprised) that you stopped at "jerks", because -- while I'm not usually the swearing type myself -- I was thinking something that rhymes with "grass-mole"."
Haha!! Actually, I figure this is a family blog and I don't have any warnings on it; if I did, my term would have been more like something that rhymes with motherchucking chuckers.
"Actually, the other man says, "It always ends the same." Jacob is correcting him when he says, "But it only ends once." "
Thank you for that!! I KNEW I should have backed it up and not relied on my exhausted memory at that point. I'll change the post. :)
pattyjean: "I assumed that the fact that he was wearing an overall with 'Horace/ Mathematician' on it means that it is his dessicated corpse in the pit where Locke finds it with the diagram in the pocket."
*gasp* I never thought of that!! OMG, you could be right. :( Or... if the bomb really DOES change things, then there won't be a body in the pit. OK, bomb... CHANGE THINGS!!
Alicia: Fantastic post and insights. I've been watching this season for Narnia references, too, and I think in my season 6 book I'll have to have an entire section on the full chronicles (man, add that to my ever-growing list of what I want to include in the season 6 book, and this book is bound to be 800 pages long).
"Nikki - I've got a toddler too - sure appreciate these blogs, I know what's its like to sacrifice sleep when there are kids involved - hope you have someone to look after them in the morning so you can catch up on sleep!"
LOL! Yay, someone who understands just how tired I am right now!! Actually, GET THIS: I booked off today for just that reason, so my husband could watch the kids and I could sleep in, because I was working on the post until almost 2. And then... he announces this morning at 6:30 that I need to get up because he's got to head out to a golf game. ARGH. So yeah. Tired. ;) Thank you for commiserating!
WOW
What an awesome season finale. I think it *might* just be my favorite one.
It had a little bit of all the season finale's I think. We have no idea where we are and there is another group that is more in control than we are (Season 1), Our group is kinda split up now (like in season 2), Locke's dead again(Season 4.. and for me season 3.. I totally knew it hehe), And a big thing about Season 3's fianle that reminded me of tonight...
It seemed to me like when Desmond hit the failsafe key, the sky went white...
Is that what Juliet basically did? Did she essentially hit the "original" failsafe key?
That was my initial though after "NOOOOOOOOOOOO"
It was really great and emotional episode. Still can't get over it. I was shaking a little bit when Juliet was falling and Sawyer was sobbing... WOW... I've always liked that relationship.
Jacob going back to the past, again... like many posters here... WHY those specific people? Why Sayid and Hurley when they've come back? Is that Jacob's way of changing a few little things to make a difference?
My friend Bmo, who I made the LOST in 4 season recap video with, have a secret power. If we both separately think of the same theory then it's true. And we did that tonight with "Locke" not really being Locke, but being "taken over" by the Man #2. As soon as we thought of that in one of the first scenes last night, it changed the whole episode... we saw him manipulating Ben, acting confused when he *knew* where he was and what had happened. I love it! Richard knew there was something different about him ;)
Great re-cap Nikki!!! I adore your blog :)
christemple: "Did anyone else notice that the foot from the 4-toed statue was the wrong foot? The first time we see it in season 2 it was clearly the right foot but when we see it in this episode it is the left foot. I wonder why?"
Wow, I SO didn't notice that. I think you're absolutely right, come to think of it. Oops. I'm assuming that's a (massive) production error? Unless the foot changed because of Jack interfering with the incident?
Brodal: I feel for you! (I laughed when I read that you couldn't sleep and came back to your computer to keep talking at 3 a.m.... I know the feeling!!)
"One major point I wanted to discuss-I don't buy that Ben never had contact with Jacob before. I think that's what he wanted "evil Locke" to believe? Why would Richard never have taken Ben to the statue to see Jacob? Why did Ben take Locke to the cabin back when. Why the cabin and not the statue? I think the voice that said help me to John was dressed in black guy, not Jacob."
As I lay in bed last night thinking about the ep more, I became increasingly convinced that everything to do with the cabin was the other guy. I think we assumed Jacob was locked in the cabin, but all the while it was the other guy, and Jacob probably was the one who locked him in there.
hello everyone - im new to reading message boards let alone posting some myself - within the last half of the season i have bought and read all Nic's books(starting with the season 4 one) but I was surprised when you didnt even comment on the statue in your recap(tells you how much awesomeness was in this episode) I just thought id mention that my girlfriend seemed pretty sure of herself last night when she said that the statue was an egyptian god that is the protecter of the dead - with the face of a Jackal - Anyone else heard anything or know if this is true?
brodal: Oops, I hit submit before finishing that one.
"Also-why did Ilana's people not show more concern with Locke if they knew dead-Locke was in the box?"
I think they found the Locke-in-a-box after the other Locke was already gone?
Blam: "I have despaired of this never being explained on the series at all, and when it dawned on me that Jacob was visiting the castaways it was a hallelujah moment."
We've always all known they were connected in some way, and now we see the manipulator behind it who made it so, whether for good or bad. The big question for the next 8 months (well, one of them) is whether Jacob is good or bad. Man, guys, you have SO MUCH to wrap up in season 6!!!
asiancolossus: "Thank you Nik for being our guide for 5 seasons. You have truly illuminated many aspects of the show and enhanced Lost immensely! Your husband is right, you are a geek, but you are OUR geek, and we love ya!!!"
LOL!! Best compliment I've had today. HAHAHA!!!
Tim: "So, this woman (Juliet) decides to change course 180 degrees and go back to the island and risk many people's lives and possibly change the course of history because she THINKS she saw her boyfriend give his ex a "look". That's...just about the most realistic thing in this whole show."
LOL!!!! Hilarious! I love it. It's true, actually... many of us could say, "Oh COME ON, Jack is going to set off a bomb for a GIRL?!" But isn't love the thing that makes us the highest and reduces us to our lowest? I'm a believer.
AliBags: "I want to marry Dalton too (and I'm single so back off Nikki) They are the masters of manipulating their audience."
I didn't say I wanted Darlton, just Damon. You can have Carlton (I had to pick one!). We'll do family reunions together. We'll stand up at each other's weddings. It'll be fun! :)
Smoochies: "Don't think new Locke is Smokey - surely he woulda known about Alex telling Ben to do everything Locke says?"
I don't think Locke is Smokey, either. I think Esau is Smokey, and is inhabiting Locke's body. I think Locke is dead. :(
You're always welcome, Nikki.
I wonder if, after Jacob is dead (should he die), Smokey can/will then appear as Jacob, perhaps to decree that leadership of his people fall back to Ben. Of course, then you need an explanation for where what's-now-known-to-be-fake-Locke went.
So Jack and Sawyer have that five-minute conversation. Heart-to-heart newly sensitive James tells Jack what happened to his parents and says, "That was a year ago." Very poignant... And then Jack, who admits to having "had" Kate and "lost" her, in some kind of justification of his plan to detonate the bomb, says of the fact that he and Kate may never have met a new non-crash timeline, "If it's meant to be, it's meant to be." This is the argument of a man who's trying to change what happened? I'm not sure that makes sense even in the context of Jack.
Another big frustration that lingers is that not nearly enough has been done with Miles' abilities, when there is clearly useful information to be had for the characters.
I mentioned in response to Nikki's comment on Miles bringing up the real-world hypotheses of "Does trying to prevent the Incident cause it?" that both he and Hurley could have helped set their friends straight on the butterfly effect. How do they not realize that blowing up the EM pocket (or whatever) in 1977 will change more than just the circumstances of Flight 815's crash in 2004? You're affecting thirty years of history, and each change precipitates even greater change.
I'm thinking now that Christian was no more alive than Locke was. Perhaps Smokey Esau uses the bodies of other men to manipulate others. So he was probably embodying Christian the same way he is Locke.Smokey is.... THE FIRST EVIL! Call the Slayers!
The body in the pit can't be Sayid. Those are Ben's victims and then from a much later murder. Even if my baby were in the pit, he'd be on the bottom.
I think his body (hopefully alive) just flashed to the future with his friends.
Hey Nikki, great recap as always! I haven't had time to read all the posts yet (stupid actually having to work today instead of spending the day readign about LOST!) but I just wanted to let you know that they're starting a re-watching LOST group over on Doc Arzt. They have a schedule posted already to start June 1st, I thought you might want to use it as a guideline.
Sorry if someone else posted this already!
Blam: Nikki: just when Jack finally believes in Locke, it’s no longer Locke, apparently."I'm with Benny on this. Jack doesn't know that Locke was apparently resurrected, so he's still talking about the Locke he and we knew, whom he believes (and turns out he's right) died to get the Oceanic 6 back to the Island."
Oh, I agree. That's what I meant: I was referring to the dramatic irony of the moment (i.e. Jack doesn't know it, but we do) that just when he realizes Locke is right, the guy is gone. That's what I was talking about. Of course Jack doesn't know about the not-resurrection.
Blam: You respond to Benny in this post, but I can't find Benny's original post where he made all these comments. Is it still here? Sounds like it's a good one, and I can't find it!!
OOOH, something I forgot to mention...
Going along with Juliet hitting the original "failsafe"...
Does this mean that Jacob might not be really dead? If it kinda jumpstarts the island and their lives again... maybe Jacob doesn't really die in the Olymipc torch under the statue? maybe he rolls out, explains to Ben that he's been used and starts the new war?
I don't know... LOL...
Is this just an error?: "That was a **year ago**. So I could get on the sub, go back to america, walk into my house, and stop my daddy..." (Sawyer).
If it was a year AGO, how could Sawyer stop it from happening. I can't believe that such a big gaffe could make it through, but I don't see how "ago" makes sense here.
Quick post for now (in between my classes!): I just wanted to say that I am SO glad I'm not the only one who was swearing up a storm at the end! I was those m**&%r f*&%ing A holes!! How COULD they DO this and end it like THAT??!! Said with love of course! :D LOL!
Of course we're left with more questions with answers but right away when things started flying into the hole, I said "now we're going to see how Chang loses his arm" and sure enough...cruch. Sort of touching how Miles called him Dad though. I also thought the scene with Sawyer holding onto Juliette was gut wrenching. When it cut to commercial, I just started welling up in shock. And OMG if it weren't bad enough that she got sucked down a LONG shaft, we have to see her lying there, all broken and bloody? Are they purposely trying to torture us? The answer of course: yes. :)
Kudos to the writers though for making us all hold our breath when Jack threw it down there...waiting,...waiting...waiting...nothing. I'm sure people on here will have thoughts as to why it didn't go off when it fell down there.
Anyway, that's all for now. I won't have time to post for a couple of days and by then I'm sure there will be 200 posts!
@lefty:
I was confused about that year ago comment myself. However, I figured since Sawyer has been on the island for 3 years, he theoretically could have gotten on the sub and gone home to stop his dad from killing his mom and himself
Nikki: Blam: You respond to Benny in this post, but I can't find Benny's original post where he made all these comments. Is it still here?
I count it the fourth comment in. Now excuse me all if I disappear and attend to some obligations.
@Nikki: It was in the first five comments. Funny enough, right after I said you post couldn't top the episode. I figure you probably stopped reading and started believing me dead!
@lefty: Sawyer's comment is that, his dad killed himself a year ago, in 76. But because Sawyer arrived in 74, he could HAVE gone back and stopped it from happening. The way he said it was confusing, I'll admit.
@asiacolossus: Curse you for beting me to the reply!
So, is Jacob Juliet's father!?!?
"@asiacolossus: Curse you for beting me to the reply!"
@Benny: I'm sure that curse was with a lot of love LOL...besides, I bow to your prowess on this board, you have more Lost expertise in your little fingertip than I have in my entire body...so throw a dog a bone LOL
@asiancolossus: It WAS with a lot of affection. I know I'm usually the first one talking, and I talk a lot.
Wow.
It just completely blows me away that the writers on this show (and the actors AND the directors/creative team) not only offer a compelling finale to each season, but manage time and time again to definitively reframe the story as they do it. This episode was 17 different kinds of satisfying washed down with an ice cold wonderfulness and topped off with a hot WTF sundae.
Oh, how I love that we will be sifting through this for weeks to come ... and how I hate that the next eight months will instead be filled with: the arrival of Seasons 1&2 on blu-ray, Nikki's Rewind/Rewatch Party followed by the Season 5 BOOK ... and with any luck, the Season 6 DVD package during Holiday, just in time for the start of *gasp* The Final Season of LOST.
Since I am completely brain-dead from a redeye flight, we'll have to take this one step at a time. And so it goes-some things that jumped out at me:
1) ANY time this show drops in an actor from the immortal HBO series DEADWOOD, my heart begins to pound. Calamity Jane (Rachel Carlson), Trixie (Colleen Pickett), Joanie Stubbs (Cassidy), E.B. Farnham (Oldham) and now Silas Adams as The Man in Black. Best. Episode. Opening. EVER
More later .... must .... have ... coffee
Did anyone notice Juliet touch her stomach protectively at one point?Yes, I did too. Though perhaps it was just a red herring/indication of her inner turmoil, since, if she is dead, her being pregnant at the time is a moot point.
Of course, if she's NOT dead, then...
Something I was wondering as Jacob's visits unfolded: are the Losties connected and "special" because of Jacob's visits to them at one point or another, or did Jacob visit each of them because he knew them to be connected and "special?" Kind of a chicken/egg deal...
If Esau/anti-Jacob was imprisoned in the cabin the entire time (during Locke's visit in Cabin Fever, say) and somehow escaped (as indicated by Ilana noticing the break in the ash circle) who are our leading contenders for the person who set him free?
For that matter, if Esau was in that cabin all along, why were Ilana and Bram bringing Locke's body to the cabin? If their plan was to show Jacob the body so he knew the Locke roaming the island wasn't the real deal, then they must have thought that cabin WAS Jacob's, at one point.
Is it possible that the Jacob in Cabin Fever asking Locke for help WAS Jacob, and that Esau took that opportunity to hoodwink Locke into inadvertently helping HIM?
And, as my stream-of-consciousness writing continues, if Christian is/is working for Esau, and he told Locke, not Ben, to turn the wheel at the end of season four, then Ben, by doing it himself, instead, actually subverted Esau's plans. Which means, in that context, Ben WAS the good guy.
Sorry for all the posts!
Ya know what I just noticed too...
Jacob's response to Ben "What about you?" can, I guess, be kind of justified.
For Jacob, he saved Ben's life. So, in return, Ben sort of owes Jacob.
Ben doesn't know that though, which is why he gets so upset that Jacob never paid any attention to him, when... in all actuality, he did very much when he was a boy. Ben just can't remember.
Great recap, Nikki. As always!
Nikki: Did you love all that Expedition music? hee hee! I kid, I kid.
I love how Jacob is weaving that humongous Egyptian linen fabric thing in the opening scene; its a great symbol for how he weaves the lives of Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, and Sawyer (and others) into one big piece of Lost Island cloth. Very coolio!
@ asiancolossus and benny: thanks, that clears things up.
@Elle and board:
That fabric is interesting, the one in Jacob's cave. I was thinking, was it the same one that Illana found a chunk of in the cabin before she burnt it down?
Whoa. Holy Frak. Now, THAT'S eight months worth of speculative fodder if I've ever seen it. Way to deliver, boys. Just whoa.
My son has been in the hospital this week (and since when do 5-year-olds get appendicitis, anyway?), so I'm coasting on too little sleep and too little time to dedicate to the in-depth analysis that such a dense download of information deserves, and I may not make any serious commentary until after the weekend, when I've had time to shake my head together (and watch those staggering 2 hours again at least once more). And 75 comments before 10am? C'mon, guys! I have work to do today, dammit! Plus, it looks like I have a Flannery O'Connor to re-read and a considerable amount of digging through Egyptian, Christian and Jewish mythology to do before making any kind of well-informed commentary, anyway... so everybody figure it all out for me while I gather my wits. (Sounds like you guys are already well on your way...)
I've had so many thoughts, but lost most of them now. First off, LOVED the finale and screamed at the tv when it went to white.
A few thoughts that I don't think have been touched on enough:
No one is really commenting on when Jacob said "they're coming." I have to assume this refers to our '77 losties. Why would he tell Ben that? Are they the only ones who can stop evil-bro aka "Bad Twin" (the manuscript Sawyer was reading back in Season 2 I think).
Since Not-Locke is presumably the bad guy and possibly smokey, it now makes sense why what Locke Saw waaaay back in the beginning of season 1 was "beautiful." He thought smokey was beautiful because it/he is what he follows or believes in.
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but has smokey ever appeared in pre-incident times? Or the whispers? I'm thinking smokey was released by the incident and the whispers are somehow related to our blown up losties.
Blam: I think Damon and Carlton made it clear from the clipshow that Kate loved/loves Sawyer and kept Aaron to heal the emotional scar left by losing Sawyer."Yeah. I was really surprised by, and hated, that."
Wow, seriously?! See, this is why I'm allergic to clip shows. If you cannot reveal it IN THE ACTUAL SHOW, then don't reveal it. I don't think you can say, "Ok, here are all the big things we couldn't fit in the show, so we'll just list them off here. Um... OK, Hurley's numbers are just some coordinates, and Christian was actually never Jack's father (Jack was adopted, and his REAL brother is Locke), and that whole Skate/Jate thing is actually Skate, that's the one she loves, and..." Like COME ON. You can't play with viewers for years and then drop a bomb like that that's not in the show. If it had been proven and said ON THE SHOW, that's one thing. But when Cassidy says it to Kate, Kate doesn't say anything, and Cassidy comes off as projecting her own feelings onto Kate. Then 2 seconds later Kate is with Jack and clearly has strong feelings for him. So it's just silly. I just wish the whole love triangle thing would END because I'm tired of it taking up so much time.
This is like that caption in the pop-up episode earlier this season that revealed Hawking's first name was Eloise LONG before we found that out on the show. Ugh.
First off, thanks for the shout out, Nikki! I'm glad you like it :)
Second off, AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!
Oh. My. Werd.
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY too much to say. I had to write out a recap on my own blog (which I said I would never do), just to get all of my thoughts out, so I didn't inundate everyone here.
First I'll respond.
@Nikki: Bernard: “We just care about being together.” Bernard looks at Rose, Rose looks at Bernard. Juliet looks at Sawyer. Sawyer looks at... Kate. Kate looks at a leaf.
Ahahahaha. LOL!
@Nikki: What happened to the rest of the statue if it was intact in the late 19th century?
And then Ben says the statue was that way as long as he's been on the Island, but Sun says she doesn't believe him and he is all vague. So I wonder when it did get destroyed and if Ben ever saw it intact.
@Nikki again :) Who broke the line of ash that surrounded Jacob’s cabin?
And what exactly was its purpose? Since Jacob obviously got out of the cabin in order to talk to Ilana and Hurley and Sayid. Was it keeping something out?
@Blam: He's Smokey. Which explains so much!
I totally agree with you. I was thinking how Rousseau's crew act all weird after going into the chamber and thought, well, shoot, I bet Smokey was impersonating them, too! I think it makes total sense. I'm just mad that you got to posting it before I did :( jk
@fb the second thing that annoyed me: all of this for ... KATE? really, jack? REALLY? i actually shouted at my TV when he said that. stupid boy.
Seriously, Jack got on my very last nerve in this episode. Between destroying everyone's life simply because his love life stinks and yelling at his dad for saving his butt I just wanted to smack him. But Sawyer did it for me :)
@Ali Bags: Did anyone notice Juliet touch her stomach protectively at one point?
YES! YES! YES! I am so glad someone else picked up on that! I'm wondering if that was why she freaked out that way on Sawyer, maybe her pregnancy freaked her out, or she was afraid that having the baby would change history or that she would die a horrible death like all the other women she watched die.
@flexible: Sonshinemusic, I won my bet and I would like appropriate kudos now :)
Ummm, I'm a woman who pays her debts, but I'm sorry, I really don't see it here. There's a possibility for it coming up in the future, but I really don't think Kate is going to go there again. And the way it ended, Sawyer doesn't turn to Kate, no, he's still screaming for Juliet.
Okay, way too many comments and I haven't even posted my thoughts yet! Surprisingly enough I still have some that no one has touched on yet, so....
I just want to say that (a) I called it that it was Locke's corpse in the box, and (b) the first episode should have been titled How To Dismantle and Atomic Bomb.
Do you think Daniel missing a foot in the Season 5 promo posters have anything to do with the statue?
Anonymous: "My Theory: I think the other guy at th ebeginning was Esau and thats the smoke monster. I think John Locke died when 815 went down and Esau has been inhabiting his body to run the LONGEST CON in the show!!!"
LOL! That could very well be true, but the John Locke of the past few years has been scared, has made mistakes, has learned about the island, has been a genuine disciple, he's screwed up, he doesn't know everything, he's fallen apart (remember him banging at the hatch?) Esau, on the other hand, knows that island like that back of his hand. Probably even better (since currently... the back of his hand is Locke's). Locke, since he's returned, is confident, mouthy, sarcastic, and very unlike the John Locke we knew. I think he's only inhabited the body since Locke's death off the island.
AliBags: "I've just watched Sky One's 'the Lost Initiative' and Iain Lee says that there should be two Lost spin-off shows; one where Desmond time travels and solves crimes, the other where Miles and Hurley share a flat and try and pick up girls and get a job."
LOL!!! That is AWESOME. I would totally watch both shows.
AliBags: I somehow think Nikki would like a Desmond spinoff where he plays a hunter who comes out of the forest shirtless with a rifle in his hand whatever chance he gets... :)
By the way, where WAS Desmond for the finale???
Did anyone else notice that the resurrected Locke's eyes were not the same blue as they usually are. In fact, it seemed to me that they were more the color of the Dark Man's eyes at the beginning of the episode. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am right, then props go to my 11-year old son who brought this to my attention this morning.
@asiancolossus: LOL! My gf just said to me 'I suppose Nikki was upset about a Desmond-less finale'.
First postThe second will discuss Jacob, Locke, Richard and Christian (among others).
- Didn't Richard say "I'm no giving up on you" to Locke at some point in season 3? Jack just told Richard he wouldn't give up on him? We would have to check that again in the Grand Review (tentative name, anyone?)
- Jacob was not only present the day Nadia died but was instrumental in either saving Sayid or making sure Nadia dies. He was just leaning against the post and waited for them to start crossing when he asked Sayid for directions. Nadia stopped in the middle of the street and turned around, only to get hit. Had Jacob not been there, Sayid and Nadia would have possibly just continued walking and not been hit, or they both would have been.
- I guess the reason the entrance to the tunnels is in Ben's house is because it was put there after this little event.
- As for the glimpse of Jacob in the cabin in season 3, since they didn't know who Jacob was going to be they picked a crew member. But it might be fitting that it was actually not Jacob (more on that in a later post). But it still keeps up the question of the eye!
- In Jack's scene with Christian. He's telling him Jack has to fix her or he's going to fix her for him. Is that telling of Jack's and Christian's roles on this island. As far as Christian's existence/side, the mobisode 13, where Christian tells Vincent to wake up his son because "he has work to do" could be telling.
- Jacob also tells Jack that "it just needed a little push" with respect to the candy bar, but this seems to mean just much more.
- Did I just miss it or was Juliet's 'flashback' the only one without Jacob in it? Does that mean something or did they just put it there because it shows her life experience?
- One noteworthy scene is when Jacob talks to Hugo. This is established as 24 hours prior to the Ajira flight. One has to wonder how Jacob got back on the island in four days without any significant event (crash/boat/etc.) He has a way of getting to and from the island.
- Richard does not drink? That could explain why he doesn't age!
Re: the foot
if you look at the pictures they are both of the left foot - notice the difference in postion from the full body statute
Too many comments, too many thoughts, I'm going to risk repeating things here, but if I keep reading before I reply, then I'll never reply!
1. My biggest thing is with Jacob/Esau (btw I love the idea of calling him that. My sister called him Pete for no reason, but Esau works better)
Which one of them is good, Jacob or Esau? I think that is one of the main questions all the way through - who are the good guys? On the one hand I think we're led to like and side with Jacob, but on the other hand, when you think about what he said and how he acts, I started to wonder. Right at the very beginning, and I'll have to rewatch it to be sure, but it seems like Jacob enjoys watching people crash on the Island and then suffer until they die and Esau is trying to stop him.
Nikki commented on how it parallels the Ben/Charles line and one of the things she asked us to do was to watch the scene between them as if Ben is evil and Charles is good. I think you can do exactly the same thing here. Crazy!
The comment about the "loophole" just seems really strange. But THEN with discovering that Esau is actually Locke...or Locke is actually Esau... or whatever, and the cold way that he just killed Jacob makes me wonder if he is good or not? and Ilana is with Jacob and revealing the truth about Locke....my head explode.
2. In relation to all of that, my sister noted that if you look at it right, Jacob is going around cursing all of the Losties. He's the one who aids and abets Kate in her life of crime (can I just say how cute little Katie was!), he's the one who gives Sawyer the pen to write the letter that will be a constant reminder of his bitterness, he doesn't save Nadia. He saves Locke's life, but if he knew about it, he could have stopped Locke altogether. His comments to Sun and Jin sound very nice, but they end up doing the exact opposite of what he said.
3. How DID Daniel know EVERYTHING? And how does Sayid figure it all out so quickly? I didn't know he was a physicist. Anyone else would have gotten a headache just looking at that freakishly haphazard journal, but Sayid just flips to the right page and says, this is what we've got to do...
4. What were the other 2 times that Richard visited Locke off the Island? We know his visit when Locke was a little boy. Was he there at Locke's birth? I don't remember.
5. I didn't realize that Sayid was THERE when Nadia died!!! AH! I so didn't want to see that scene. It was so sad.
6. When Sayid got shot, my immediate thought, was: Oh, poor redeem. Even funnier, my sister's immediate though was: Oh, there's that girl on the blog that really likes Sayid. I bet she's upset :D
7.Was Eloise the leader? Or were Charles and Eloise co-leaders and when the bomb goes off someone has to turn the wheel to set things right and Charles refuses, so Eloise has to. That would explain their animosity and why Daniel never knew he had a father.
8. Highlight: Hurley comes to save the day in the Dharma van again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah Hurley!!!!!!!
9.When Kate and Sawyer are arguing over where to go and Sawyer's like, do you have a compass, I'm thinking... the sun sets in the west......ummmm do you need a compass to see that?
10. ROSE AND BERNARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and did mine eyes deceive me, or was that Jacob/Horace's cabin? And Bernard in a beard is only marginally better than the infamous Jeard. And I loved the calm and peaceful Rose music. Is that really it for them? Are they done like Walt? What a crummy ending to their story line. I mean, good, but crummy.
11. I loved how Locke pointed out the hatch door and how it was such a symbol for how Ben and Locke's relationship has completely flip flopped and now Locke is the one playing mind games on Ben and Ben is the one who's all confused and without a plan. Of course, then we discover it's not really Locke at alll, but he has all of Locke's memories, so how does that work?!
12. CHARLIE'S RING!!!! Aaron might actually get it some day, now!!!!!
13. Wow! Sawyer could have changed his whole life (if you can actually change anything) But that would have changed Locke's whole life, too! Because, if he killed Cooper, then Cooper wouldn't have stolen Locke's kidney, Locke never would have met Helen and then lost her and Cooper never would have thrown Locke out the window.
14. Juliet was also getting on my nerves again. In the sub, she's immediately, excessively worried about Jack, but God forbid that Sawyer even look at Kate and then she was all, "I know you would stay with me forever, Jim, so I'm dumping you because you looked at Kate, even though I'm admitting that you would have stuck with me and that's why I want Jack to change the future becaus I can't handle my own paradox."
15. But then, she went and got sucked down the shaft and I felt guilty because I said to my sister, of all the main people I wouldn't mind if Juliet was the one to die and that scene of her hanging and Sawyer pleading was so absolutely heart-wrenching. But then she was still alive and smashed the bomb and in some weird Lostian way it actually assuaged my guilt.
16. Jack, "nothing in my life has ever felt so right." Wait, didn't he say that about Sarah? Even if not, yeah, your feelings have led you well so far, Jack............
17. Highlight: Hurley, matter-of-factly, "Oh, so you must be dead." Jacob, "I'm definitely not dead."
18. Maybe it wasn't anybody, maybe I'm just Lost paranoid in thinking everyone is somebody, but...Who was driving that cab?
19. Highlight: Hurley to Jack, "Dude, what happened to your face?" HA!
20. Jack to Sawyer, "See you in Los Angeles. Or not, since we won't know each other and I would never talk to you because I'm a fancy pants doctor with Daddy issues and too much alcohol while you are an angry redneck with slicked back hair with anger-management issues."
21. Locke might as well have been saying, "Heel, Ben, heel. Good boy, Benny, you're such a good boy."
22. Highlight: I LOVE MILES! "Maybe Jack is just going to cause The Incident so we should actually help him." And the look on everyone else's face like, oh, whoa and then Miles, "I'm glad you've thought this through."
23. Did we really have to go to the "Live together, die alone" speech again? And Juliet? Really? I mean, she wasn't even there for the speech. Puh-lease.
24. Jack running toward the swan station... "by the way, I suddenly have perfect aim again, even though, back in Dharmaville I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn!"
25. Highlight: Miles screaming, "Dad!" and running to help Chang.
26. Highlight: PHIL!!!! IMPALED!!!!!!!!!!! I admit it, my sister and I were screaming... DIE! DIE! DIE! YEEESSSSSS!!!!!! I know, we are sick.
27. Highlight: Sun, "Do you have alcohol?" Richard, "I wish I did." CAN you get drunk, Richard? Just curious.
28. LOCKE! IN THE CRATE!!! Ok, we never saw that one coming!
29. A lot of people have commented on the way the screen went white and I know it was because of the explosion, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) isn't this the first time it hasn't gone to black? And did anyone notice that the promo for next year was all inverted, too? Black on white, instead of white on black.
My thoughts... with the death of Jacob there has been a shift of power. They didn't change things in the past, but things in the present have now changed dramatically. The question is, to which side, light or dark. I'm not going to even get into good or bad, because that is way too complicated here on Lost. So, is it Esau who now has the upper hand? Or, as someone so insightfully pointed out, was Jacob's death something to bring him back to greater power than before, like Aslan in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
Oh, Lost, what will I do without you for so very, very, very long.
Now on to read more comments.....
@lefty: If it was a year AGO, how could Sawyer stop it from happening. I can't believe that such a big gaffe could make it through, but I don't see how "ago" makes sense here.
I think he was saying that he COULD HAVE stopped it, meaning a year ago. If he had gotten on the sub when they first arrived he could have stopped everything, but he didn't.
Teebore: " wonder what the date was when he was taken to the temple and reborn? He always maintained he was "born" on the island, and now we know he was likely referring to that incident, so perhaps he's rethought his birthday? :)"
Possibly, but we know that he killed his father on his birthday, and he does that long after the Temple rebirth, so I would think he would still consider his birthday to be the same.
But that reminds me of that: Where did Richard take him? We now know there are two entities on the island: did he take him to Jacob or Esau?
"Anyone else think it was odd that Juliet's flashback was a non-Jacob one? The only flashback in the episode that didn't involve Jacob in some capacity."
I thought so in the beginning, but then realized that if his purpose is to get people on the plane, Juliet is not one of those people. Interesting that Richard chooses her, and he does the bidding of Jacob.
"I too have very little doubt that Rose and Bernard are the Adam and Eve skeletons in the cave. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if A. this was the last we'll see of them B. No additional comment is made, on the show, about the skeletons."
Me too. Though I do hope they make it explicit for the casual viewers. We're all assuming it now, but there are thousands of viewers out there who would say, "Who are Adam and Eve?" if we brought it up. :)
And benny and asiancolossus beat me WAY to the punch. Stuff is getting posted faster than I can read. Sorry for the redundancy :)`
@anonymous and Nikki: Locke, since he's returned, is confident, mouthy, sarcastic, and very unlike the John Locke we knew. I think he's only inhabited the body since Locke's death off the island.
I also realized that Locke's body was found on 316, so that means actual Locke was on the mainland and actually dead.
aCanadianToker: I'm answering questions out of order now... You asked why I didn't bring up the statue. I started to, and then thought if I spend half an hour writing up a quick research on the statue, I'll be here all night. So I skipped it. But that's also because we covered off the possibilities of the statue a few months ago. Try going here:
http://nikkistafford.blogspot.com/2009/04/lost-512-dead-is-dead.html
And here:
http://nikkistafford.blogspot.com/2009/03/lost-508-that-statue.html
@benny: Jacob also tells Jack that "it just needed a little push" with respect to the candy bar, but this seems to mean just much more.
I think it was quite fitting since, so often throughout the show Jack "needs a little push" to get him to do something. He needed a little push to become the leader, needed a little push to come back to the Island, needed a little push to go after the bomb.
@Blam. Yeah. I was surprised by the schmoopyness of Sawyer/Juliet and I hated it too :)
I do not think it was an over reaction by Juliet. She had had these nagging feelings for a while and what are you guys saying? You have some people talking about "as long as they are together" whatever happens, can happen and you are standing infront of the man you love like that, and you look at him with a smile, and instead he sends a nostalgic look in the way of the woman you helped him get over?...and you all think its strange and over-reaction? No. It was appropriate reaction. Whether she should have agreed with Jack because of that is another story. She certainly should have broken up with Sawyer over it because it only confirmed all her suspicions. Juliet explained what Sawyers feelings for her are/were. He loved her and he would stay with her if she let him but Juliet knows that they do not have that forever kind of love. They were not meant to be. Sawyer did not deny it with words of love he simply said "I dont care who I looked at. I am with you" Almost like a duty borne out of loyalty and obligation. Like he owes her his life she having stuck with him and had his back all these years. I'm sorry that some bought into this Sawyer/juliet relationship as some all encompassing love. It was never depicted as that to my mind and the minute Kate steped back there were issues so that should have told everybody everything and all sawyers protestations seemed forced, like he was trying to convince himself and Holloway acted accordingly.
I don't know how many people inlove spend more time saying how they have each others backs rather than how much inlove they are.
I keep looking at your screencaps of the statue's foot and I don't think the foot has changed. If you look at the whole statue, it's left foot looks like the angle of the leg goes from right to left (from the bottom of the leg to the top). What is left of the foot and leg looks exactly like the left leg of the whole statue. I think it has always been the left foot and nothing changed in the "incident" or in a production error. Just a thought...
ashlie: Hm... I had no idea there was a rewatching idea over on DocArzt... especially considering I came up with the idea over here on Monday. I feel like my idea was just usurped. :( Actually, no, I don't like making that accusation... they must have had this in the works for a while, and I just didn't know about it.
I was going to do a big advertising campaign on Lost sites to get some new readers over here and have us attack the episodes starting July 1 and going through to end of January, right up to the beginning of season 6. I guess if there's another site doing it, there's not much use of us doing it over here too. Poop. (I had my schedule half-written up.)
@Nikki - It appears this finale was SO awesome that you failed to mention the lack of Desmond.
I can totally envisage a spin-off with Desmond time travelling and solving crime in a shirt that has inexplicably lost its buttons.
@Blam Another big frustration that lingers is that not nearly enough has been done with Miles' abilities, when there is clearly useful information to be had for the characters.It is night here and I can't sleep. I went to bed about and hour and half ago and now I've given up and got up. And Blam, the whole Miles issue is one of the things that is keeping me awake. Can you imagine how much that man must know? And in true Lost style, he's keeping it all to himself.
I also realised that I'm now going to have to rewatc all the episodes since Locke was 'resurrected' to see how we missed all the clues.
@Nikki - are we going to have a little discussion soon on our favourite moments of the season?
2) These are all out of order due to lack of sleep but after witnessing Ben knife Jacob, I found myself thinking back to Richard's comment about taking Ben into the Temple. "... his innocence will be gone." Under the circumstances, this strikes me as relevant.
Nik: I guess if there's another site doing it, there's not much use of us doing it over here too. Poop. (I had my schedule half-written up.)
Oh, my holy Lostness, I hope you're joking! We totally have to do the re-watch over here, the best Lost site on the freaking planet! Please? I'll be good, I swear!
lefty: "Is this just an error?: "That was a **year ago**. So I could get on the sub, go back to america, walk into my house, and stop my daddy..." (Sawyer). If it was a year AGO, how could Sawyer stop it from happening. I can't believe that such a big gaffe could make it through, but I don't see how "ago" makes sense here."
Lefty: Asiancolossus handled this one, but I just wanted to clarify that I think he says, "I COULD have gotten on a sub" meaning a year ago, when he'd still been on the island. He doesn't mean doing it right this second, he meant a year ago.
@ Nikki: guess if there's another site doing it, there's not much use of us doing it over here too. Poop. (I had my schedule half-written up.)
NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
I don't go to other sites! I come here! I want to discuss it with you guys! Because everyone here plays nice and is so insightful and we have so much fun! Please, say it isn't so! You will make the hiatus sad for me :( (is that enough of a puppy dog pout, can I say something else to change your mind?)
Benny: OMG, I totally did!! I can't believe I did exactly that. I suck. Sorry!
@NIKKI-Well, the clip show is no surprise to a lot of people. Maybe because you are not a shipper and you got tired of the triangle(understandably so), you don't read too much into these things, but a lot of people said way back in season 4 what the writers of the show have now said.
Sawyer gave Aaron to Kate. When Kate formulated the lie to keep Aaron, she mentioned all the people she lost and she said "I can't lose him too". It was clear, very clear, that Aaron was like a soothing balm. I suppose some did not get/see it but others did so the writers cant be blamed for pulling a WTF moment because it wasn't such a moment. There are others that theorised about it,a full year ago, and found themselves to be spot on. Why would the writers waste a Kate-centric episode to reveal feelings of a minor character. Kate said nothing because when it comes to feelings, Kate says nothing. Has Kate ever said ILU too to Jack as much as he has professed love? Kate says nothing during emotional turmoil unless she is forced(See, I DO) Moreover, when Kate went to Claires mother, she quoted Cassidy "Verbatim" to explain why she kept aaron "because I NEEDED HIM". I thought that was clear and obvious that Kate agreed with Cassidys assessment and even EL had said(In an interview after shooting that) that sometimes you need others to show you, yourself in the mirror. I found it one of the less ambiguous episodes of Lost. I was amazed at what some were saying while for some it was like confirmation of a year old theory.
Kate has been shown to love both men in different ways. People were just too tired of the "triangle" to analyse it objectively. Same with Sawyer now. He loves two women in different ways.
@Sonshine-You've gotta be kidding me right? LOL. You boldly stated that Skate ship is DEAD in the water and I could not for the life of me see how you could have thought that after TLP scene, Reunion in Le Fleur, Lei scene in Namaste, The Porch scene, and WHH and other little anvils scattered about, but you boldly stated so and I placed a virtual bet that come the finale it will be back in the water. Are you telling me, that after that clip which not only put it in the water but made it THE SHIP, that after the episode witht the Look and the destruction of Sawyer/Juliet without Kate even batting an eyelid but merely existing, does not put the Skate ship back in the water? You can theorise on what you think Sawyers feelings are to whoever but we can only go by what we have seen and what the writers have said. Sawyer was devastated that Juliet died. He looked at Juliet as he should have. thats who he had spent the last 3 yaers with. same way Kate and Jack looked at each other. One of the things Nikki failed to notice in her recap is how Sawyer resorted to calling Juliet "Blondie" after their break up conversation. Theyt were back to their season 3 and 4 snarky relationship. Sawyer was no more Le Fleur as he told Miles. sawyer was back. sawyer and Juliet are not lovers. they are buddies. It was a look of quiet acceptance of the decision they, more so Juliet, had made. Which is why she smiled. I read it that way, you read it another way but I have their break up conversation to back me up, while you have wishful thinking ;)
Pay your debt my friend :)
Jack and kate are over and will be great friends and comrades. taht is all that was about in this finale. I say it again now. When it happens next season, some will say, WTF, I thought they were genuinely inlove, forgetting that there are others who have never seen that love as such.
I want to do the rewatch on this site too! *jumps up an down and pouts*
Also posted here:
http://theoreticalisland.blogspot.com/
I would suggest that the body was definitely found AFTER Bad-Locke (pun: bad luck?) left. Since Ilana works for Jacob, she probably would have realized what was happening and prevented Bad-Locke to go had she found the body earlier.
But what was her original purpose? The body was put in an Ajira company crate, so it certainly wasn't something they brought themselves (and we know the story). With their involvement, is it now safe to assume that they are not DHARMA? Jacob visited Ilana (we don't know when) and asked her to help. Did she know him already, it would certainly appear so.
And this brings the interesting aspect of Sayid and why he was brought by Jacob. IT certainly appears that this is a recruitment of sort (They are coming). The black rock, DHARMA, the Oceanic 815 and Ajira 316, and anything else was just progress. They are finally coming and this will end. It ends the same? No, it ends once!
But where does that leave everyone else? Was Ben always doing the bidding of Jacob? One could think so; Jacob calls him Benjamin, as a father would a son, or an elder to a younger member. Jacob certainly acts as if Ben had been following his will, and Richard bringing everyone to the Statue makes me believe he certainly is an 'advisor' and supporter of Jacob.
But we are still left with Widmore, Christian and Eloise; what their roles really are.
(more to come this afternoon)
By the way, it was so funny that Sayid's crazy Ninja skills now seem to extend to dismantling nuclear bombs. What can that man NOT do?
(stay away from unsuitable women apparently)
Seriously, Nikki. I don't care if other sites are doing it. I'd much rather we do it here, with you shepherding the whole thing.
Other sites do recaps/episode analyses too, but we all come here. Let them do their rewatch. We'll do ours too.
Sorry for typos in previous post. In a rish so could not proofread/spell check.
@Nikki: About the foot. I think someone else brought it up but, when you look at the whole statue, the calfs are angled outwards from the body's centerline. The foot alone (from the back) is angled to the left, meaning it would be the left one.
Also, from the single foot shot, you can see a piece of the sandal going over the foot near the toe. That piece is not there in the full statue shot, suggesting it's only the big-toe strap that would be on the inside of the sandal.
Just my thoughts!
Oops! Sorry, guys. Didn't mean to disappoint. I just figured you wouldn't want a rehash of stuff going on on another site at the same time. But now Sonshine's doing a brilliant pout, Batcabbage is promising to be good, and Ali Bags is jumping up and down. Sorry!! Of COURSE we'll do it over here if you guys really want to. I'm rewatching them anyway. :)
Oh, and by the way, if anyone really DID tune in to the Vancouver radio station, they haven't called me. I think they've screwed up the time or something. Who knows... this is pretty normal. And the reason why I usually don't post when I do radio shows!! :)
3) Knowing now that Locke's body was in that crate (something Ben would have known, of course), we have a bit more context on that strange scene with Ilana and Ben on Hydra Island - ending with Ben telling her to "have a great day". He first asks her, "what's in the crate?" (testing her knowledge, perhaps) before he slinks away. He's seen Locke alive and well, and probably assumes the crate is empty. So, why would they "need to have (it) moved"?
Hi All,
What a stunning season! And a fab and timely recap to end it too!
I feel proud that I was able to plan and execute a move from Vancouver to Ottawa without missing a single show (it was my priority). In our temporary home, we have no pvr, and I can no longer watch the show twice from the mountain time zone so: damn, hell, damn. At least I didn't miss it.
I actually try to read all of the comments, so there is never a subject left to comment on by the time I finish, but I will say that I feel it is Jacob who is running the longest con ever.
I remembered the mobisode where Jack and Ben played chess, and it made me think how Jacob may be carefully picking his pieces in order to play out whatever scenario he has in mind.
As far as his comment about how before the end there is progress (paraphrasing), I feel it could have something to do with the accumulation of small "variables" over time that will eventually get him where he wants to be. I think the variables may be human relationships, and how they strongly influence the actions of the characters involved.
Looking forward to 2010. I should be unpacked by then.
Thanks for another season of fun Nikki!
Tanyam
Yeah, Nikki it looks like astrojones at Doc Arzt is organizing the reWatching party, but we'll still follow you here! There's always room for more discussion!
Jacob gave Sawyer a pen, Jack a candy bar, and paid for Kate's lunchbox. When Hurley got out of jail, he was given a pen, a fruit-roll up (candy), and money...
I'll be back this afternoon to keep blogging!
Teebore said:Seriously, Nikki. I don't care if other sites are doing it. I'd much rather we do it here, with you shepherding the whole thing.
Other sites do recaps/episode analyses too, but we all come here. Let them do their rewatch. We'll do ours too.
I completely agree Nikki, there is a reason why you have so many fans over here. Its because you take the time to acknowledge us, no matter how stupid our posts are (Roland raises his hand here!). Its also the camraderie between the folks on the board. We want to genuinely help each other understand the intricacies of the show. I agree with Teebore. You are our Jacob :)
@Nikki
What is really cool is that I can join in on the rewatch when I am actally in Hawaii. I will be a super geek this summer.
By the way, as an expert on all things tropical, I am pretty sure it is impossible to have a forest fire in a tropical forest. Have you seen how much it rains in such places? Even the air itself is damp.
Hurray! Thanks, Nik, you're the absolute best.
Oh yes, Please! I was planning to re-watch here!
Tanyam
@flexible: Pay your debt my friend :)
All right, I guess I was looking at it as Skate being launched, but you are right, the possibility is back, so the ship is in the water ;) Just wasn't looking at it that way. So here goes......
you said it, flexible!
OK! If y'all are planning on tuning in to the radio show, I just got a call and they had messed up the times, as suspected. I'll be on there at noon EST, 9am PST. Go to www.talk1410.com to listen in.
AliBags: "By the way, it was so funny that Sayid's crazy Ninja skills now seem to extend to dismantling nuclear bombs. What can that man NOT do?"
Seriously! I agree. I said to my husband as he was dismantling it, "That guy is the Iraqi James Bond. There is NOTHING he can't do."
But yes, the whole staying away from unsuitable women probably counts as one. ;)
@Nikki "Juliet’s fall was heartbreaking, and something I didn’t see coming at ALL. And I think that’s the first time we’ve seen Sawyer sob. It was a lot like when Buffy jumped from the tower at the end of season 5. I didn’t start crying until I saw Spike fall apart. Similarly, it really hit me when Sawyer started crying."Normally I am not a shipper - but I think the fact that Sawyer was so devistated when Juliet fell and his sobs (I so started to cry at that point!) just nailed it for me that he does love Juliet. He might look at Kate as love lost - but Juliet has his heart.
Fantastic episode. More later.
Teebore: "Seriously, Nikki. I don't care if other sites are doing it. I'd much rather we do it here, with you shepherding the whole thing."
Aw, thanks. Now, if ours starts a few weeks after the first one, how can we keep it fresh and exciting? Other than not going to look? (Shows how much I was going over there to look, since I didn't notice it was happening!) I would LOVE to start June 1, but I have this annoying matter of a book I'm trying to write, and that'll take up most of my July. But let's see how the next 2 weeks go (which I've taken off just to write) and maybe we can start earlier. We need to time season 5 for the DVDs, because no one wants to start without them! :)
Yeah! Thanks Nikki, I knew if we pleaded enough you wouldn't leave us hanging. How would I survive the next almost YEAR! without all of you. I would go crazy, that's what would happen, because NO ONE I know is as Lost crazy as me, so you guys fill a hole in my life :)
I'm fairly confident: You pick a start date Nikki, and they (we) will come. No worries.
Elle: "Did you love all that Expedition music? hee hee! I kid, I kid."
LOL!!! I moaned loudly and said out loud again how I think that music is cheesy. But after so many people disagreed with me last week, I kept my mouth shut. I don't want to offend anyone who loves it. (And I think Giacchino is a genius, so it's a minor nitpick for me to hate one song.)
"I love how Jacob is weaving that humongous Egyptian linen fabric thing in the opening scene; its a great symbol for how he weaves the lives of Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, and Sawyer (and others) into one big piece of Lost Island cloth. Very coolio!"
That is an EXCELLENT observation, and you know, it reminds me now that you mention it of the Three Fates (the child, mother, and crone) who weave the tapestry of everyone's life, and when they cut a thread, that indicates the end of a person's life. In that way, Jacob is like one of the Fates. I definitely want to think about that one further.
Thank you Sonshine ;) You are a woman of Honour :) I am actually now more interested in how Kate and Sawyer are connected to the mythos. They were the only 2, Jacob visited as children. Kate never sems to be in danger on that Island. I tell you, Smokey is her grandfather. LOL. She ran to save Jack. Ran to save juliet. Ran to save Sawyer. She, Kate, is never in danger. Smokey never chases her. She knows her way round the Island as was seen again on the raft today(vintage Skate moment btw) Countless examples. So, there is certainly more to Kate than meets the eye. I think the "they" in they are coming, refers to our Losties. They are Jacobs soldiers...I look forward to that as much as I look forward to the re-establishment of Skate. I know they might make it seem like Kate is flip flopping early on which will get the fanboys and the non shippers into a frenzy but thats just Darlton playing with us, I am on to them now. They don't fool me :)
Skate was never going to be launched this season. From season 3 when I DO was hyped by TPTB as kate making her definitive choice, Darlton said they would hate for the moonlighting effect to happen to their OTP. So, the longer they kept Kate and Sawyer apart, the more convinced I became. Plus, in television history, OTPS have their fights, love scenes, separations and reunions visually presented not fanwanked like we had to do for Sawyer/Juliet and a bit of Jack/Kate. Did anyone really think, the OTP was going to be introduced in the 7th episode of the penultimate season? No.Mature, adult, happy? This is Lost, my friends. Not "On Golden Pond" :)
I may join this rewatch because I think any rewatch of Lost always helps to understand it better. I just might not be able to keep up the pace which is why I am skeptical I can join in.
Okay, so we got a really good shot of the full statue. What's the consensus on which Egyptian God it was?
Was that the long snout of Annubis, or of the fertility goddess?
I need to go back and look again...
joshua: "My son has been in the hospital this week (and since when do 5-year-olds get appendicitis, anyway?), so I'm coasting on too little sleep and too little time to dedicate to the in-depth analysis that such a dense download of information deserves..."
Oh no! I hope he's doing better. A friend of mine had that happen to his son about a month ago, and he was 4. It was SO hard on the parents, especially because the child can't quite describe the pain the same way. Thanks for checking in, and we can definitely wait for your no-doubt brilliant insight. Give your son a hug for us. :)
"The more I muse on it, the more it feels like the flash was a time-jump that will "capture" the relevant parties back to the future... "
I had the same impression.
I'm wondering if they actually just erased the future, and if so were the hints of "erased possible futures" all we will get? What I mean is that they alluded to Sayid being the dead body in the van Hurley found, or that maybe Jack and Kate were Adam and Eve, but now all of those histories were (possibly)erased so the "815ers" have managed to escape their horrible deaths that happened before Daniel's plan to screw things up. Ironically, now Daniel has altered the altered history. If the plan worked, will the writers even bother to inform us about all of those connections or are they now lost threads (pun unintended, sorry).
Also, did anyone else think we were going to get the boat shootout scene from earlier this season when we saw Illiana's group in the padle boat?
Relating to Jacob/maybesau - here's something I commented on while watching, but forgot when I was posting. (there was just way too freakin' much good stuff!)
Ages ago (actually it was earlier this season, but that feels like ages ago) I commented that I thought "good" and "bad" were too simple terms for Ben or Charles. And I submit that the same is true for Jacob and Esau.
I don't think it will come down to good or evil, I think it comes down to free will and destiny (there's a shocker). What if one of them represents free will and one of them destiny?
What brings me to think this was the emphasis that Jacob puts on saying to Ben, "You always have a choice." (paraphrase, something to that effect). So what if Jacob is the proponent of choice or free will? That would mean that Esau is the proponent of destiny.
Any thoughts? I'm not even sure where I stand on this, but it was an intriguing enough idea to throw out there.
@Snoochie
"Who'd eye did we glimpse at the end? Was it Kate or Julliet? Hmmm"I jumped at the end of the credits when the 'eye' appeared. How LOST is that? Seems to be the thing re. eyes just opening!
I believe that Juliet has blue eyes. I am not sure about Kate's. However, it seems to me that Charlotte's eyes - being she is a red-head and these tend to go together in most red-heads - were green. It was definitely a girl! If it turns out to be Charlotte, the implications are HUGE.
I too will be here for the 'recap' of seasons one to five. January is a looong way off. :(
Hunter: "No one is really commenting on when Jacob said "they're coming." I have to assume this refers to our '77 losties. Why would he tell Ben that? Are they the only ones who can stop evil-bro aka "Bad Twin" (the manuscript Sawyer was reading back in Season 2 I think)."
Great point! I immediately assumed that he was referring to Ilana and Company, but you're absolutely right... he could be referring to the Dharminians instead...
"Since Not-Locke is presumably the bad guy and possibly smokey, it now makes sense why what Locke Saw waaaay back in the beginning of season 1 was "beautiful." He thought smokey was beautiful because it/he is what he follows or believes in."
What is also interesting to me is that at the beginning he saw it and it was beautiful, but in Exodus, at the end of that season, what he saw was NOT so beautiful. Smokey showed him its dark side in that moment, which is why Locke had so little faith going into season 2.
JB: "Jacob gave Sawyer a pen, Jack a candy bar, and paid for Kate's lunchbox. When Hurley got out of jail, he was given a pen, a fruit-roll up (candy), and money..."
Interesting parallel! And he gave Jin and Sun a blessing, and gave Locke life. Or... he could have cursed Jin and Sun (bringing on the troubles from their marriage) and paralyzed Locke, depending on how you want to see Jacob.
asiancolossus: "I agree with Teebore. You are our Jacob :)"
Aw... that's so swee-, er... wait. Does this mean one of y'all is planning to stab me and throw me onto a fire pit? Heehee...
Great, as laway, Nikki! I stop here every thursday morning, just to read your thoughts! Thanks for that! And, this wait will be SO HARD, but the good news for me is I am newly preggers right now, with due date in December, so I've got a little something else to occupy my every thought b/w now and then :)
Now, I don't think anyone has mentioned this one--mayeb it's completely WRONG, but it was my first thought last night, after the white-out :)
So, my thought was that the hydrogen bomb didn't go off, becasue it wasn't supposed to go off--proof that they really couldn't change things after all. Just like Michael couldn't die any of those times he tried--he had to wait until it was his time.
BUT, then, the bomb was able to explode--at the same time that Jacob was thrown into the fire! By killing JAcob, they changed the "protective forces" that he supplied to all of them--he was the one who prevented them from changing the past/present/future, but as soon as he "died", Juliet was sudednly able to detonate tthe bomb.
Thoughts?
@flexible: I am actually now more interested in how Kate and Sawyer are connected to the mythos.
You know, I was thinking as Jacob visited them that both of them, who seem to have no ties to the Island, now have much stronger ties than anyone else! I was just waiting for him to visit Hurley as a kid. That would have made it even better. Alas, twasn't to be :(
@flexible: think the "they" in they are coming, refers to our Losties.
This is also connected to the idea, which I agree with, that the flash sends our Losties back to their own time. Jacob knew they were coming and that they will all be key in this grand battle that is sure to take place next season :)
@dan: Also, did anyone else think we were going to get the boat shootout scene from earlier this season when we saw Illiana's group in the padle boat?
Yes! And I was quite upset that it didn't happen, but then I remembered that they were shot at in the rain and dark and this was sunny and clear. I still was hoping they would clear that up, but maybe next season. GRRRRRR!
dan: "Also, did anyone else think we were going to get the boat shootout scene from earlier this season when we saw Illiana's group in the padle boat?"
YES!! I was a little disappointed we didn't. I guess that's still to come next year? What if the Dharminians are blooping back to 2007 and at one point the Ajiras are chasing the 2007 ones, and the bloopy ones come into play for half a second? That would be... oh man. Confusing. ;)
Sonshine: "I don't think it will come down to good or evil, I think it comes down to free will and destiny (there's a shocker). What if one of them represents free will and one of them destiny?"
I think you're right on the money, as usual, and you just beat me to that comment myself (because I was answering something else and it made me think of that). No one on this show is black and white. The people are lovable one week, hateful the next... even the relationships are all over the place. One of the ongoing themes of the show has been black and white, but that's to throw us off, because in the end, it's all grey.
And going back to the biblical story, Esau was destined to have the birthright. Jacob made it HIS by exercising his free will. So if there is a split, I would speculate that Jacob is our free will guy.
Anonymous: First of all, congrats on the pregnancy! That's great news. Secondly, for a post as insightful as that one, I want to know who you are! Come out, come out... :)
"So, my thought was that the hydrogen bomb didn't go off, becasue it wasn't supposed to go off--proof that they really couldn't change things after all. Just like Michael couldn't die any of those times he tried--he had to wait until it was his time.
BUT, then, the bomb was able to explode--at the same time that Jacob was thrown into the fire! By killing JAcob, they changed the "protective forces" that he supplied to all of them--he was the one who prevented them from changing the past/present/future, but as soon as he "died", Juliet was sudednly able to detonate tthe bomb. Thoughts?"
I love this theory. I definitely have to think it through a little more, but I think it's a great one!
Sonshine: "I am actually now more interested in how Kate and Sawyer are connected to the mythos."
I agree completely. I think it'll be interesting to see how they're all connected now. :)
Wait...if they're Jacob and Esau, why all the Egyptian stuff? I mean, I know Egypt is in the Bible, and that Egypt and the Hebrews have a history, there, but, could not Jacob be Sobek, and the other guy, Set? Hmm...
The statue is of Sobek.
Anonymous: "Do you think Daniel missing a foot in the Season 5 promo posters have anything to do with the statue?"
I love that theory, but the producers have confirmed it was just a silly Photoshop error. :) (I like your theory more!)
Great recap, Nikki, as always! I noticed a couple things that I don't think anyone else has mentioned so far:
Hurley's numbers: At the very end, when Juliet was smashing the bomb with that rock, it finally exploded the 8th time she hit it.
Jin and Sun's wedding flashback: We have briefly seen their wedding photo as it appeared in a newspaper, and they were wearing traditional Korean wedding costumes. And besides that, in Asian cultures (as far as I know), white is the funeral color. For weddings, the bride and groom wear "lucky red". Also, were strapless wedding gowns in fashion yet when Jin and Sun got married? What year was that supposed to have been, anyway?
People keep mentioning how things are reversed, implying continuity errors. (The right or left four-toed foot, which of Chang's arms was hanging limp, etc.) And I keep thinking that we're seeing MIRROR images. I think that, in the end, mirroring will be one of the mainest main clues to all of LOST.
Another of Hurley's numbers appear in the very last seconds:
Juliet hit the Hydrogen-core 8 times before it went off or what ever happened then.
Just got a mail that your Season 4 Guide got shipped to me. I really need to watch S4 after this crazy 5th Season before my brain can handle what you wrote...lol
with 160 posts this may have been mentioned, but remember earlier in the season when real locke visited walt and walt told him he had a dream where he was surround by people and they wanted to hurt him (meaning locke). well now we know what he meant. not-locke is about to be surround by people who want to hurt him
(first time poster, lomg time lurker)
Lots of thought-provoking comments today, I have really enjoyed reading them.
I have a comment about the season overall. This is the first season of LOST where I spent lots of time online, at this site and Lostpedia, so I've been privy to lots of theories. So my overall impression of the season has been that many of the big reveals haven't been much of a surprise, like Ellie=Eloise=Dan's mom, Chang=Miles's father, etc. I think it kind of ruined the season for me, even though there were episodes and moments that I just loved.
Did anyone else have this experience, feeling like you knew too much ahead of time?
Anonymous: "Wait...if they're Jacob and Esau, why all the Egyptian stuff? I mean, I know Egypt is in the Bible, and that Egypt and the Hebrews have a history, there, but, could not Jacob be Sobek, and the other guy, Set? Hmm..."
I'll be writing a much longer and better researched note than this later, but many religions are the same stories retold with different characters. You can call them what you will, and you can say God or Allah or Buddha, but in the end there's the head guy, his helpers, disciples, and several parables put together to lead the followers on the right path. And that goes for Egyptian mythologies (or, to the Ancients, religions) as well.
Nikki! I just listened to the radio broadcast and it was so much fun to actually hear you! Great interview. Yeah!
RE: The poster who couldn't see the statue do to weather problems. I had a similar issue: my cable system wisely decided to run a test of the emergency broadcast system about 20 minutes from the end of the episode! It was a scene where Richard once again comes over to talk to Locke. All I heard were the emergency tones through that whole scene! Anybody want to fill me in on what happened?
Also, I mention the unfortunate moment in my own blog (www.iscreenyouscreen.blogspot.com).
Great recap, by the way.
Me too! Great job!
Sonshine! Did you hear me drop your theory in there! I was hoping you were listening. :) Awesome theory, and my fave so far today. ;)
TV Writer: Oh no!!! How AWFUL. I can imagine the screams you must have emitted. This is from Lostpedia:
2007: At the remains of the statue, Locke demands to be led to Jacob, and brings Ben with him against Richard's wishes. Richard pushes a stone door open, and Ben and Locke enter a chamber in the base of statue. Locke hands Ben a knife, telling him that "things will change" once Jacob is gone.
Outside, the Ajira group arrives, and Ilana asks for "Ricardus." Richard identifies himself and Ilana asks, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" Richard replies in Latin, "He who will protect/save us all." Ilana reveals the contents of the crate: John Locke's dead body.
Inside the chamber, Jacob deduces that Locke represents his rival and that he has tricked Ben into coming there. Jacob tells Ben that whatever he has been told, he still has a choice. When Ben asks Jacob about all the times he has been neglected, putting to him the question, "What about me?" Jacob's only reply is, "What about you?" Ben stabs Jacob repeatedly. Jacob whispers to Locke, "They're coming," and Locke rolls Jacob into the fire pit in the center of the room.
1977: With everyone now on the same page, Jack enters the construction site of the Swan station at the same time that security officer Phil arrives with a team of armed men. On the orders of Radzinsky, Dr. Pierre Chang continues drilling into the energy source beneath the construction site. A massive gunfight ensues, wherein the survivors gain the upper hand, allowing Jack to drop the bomb into the pit at the same time the drill hits the energy source. The bomb, however, does not detonate and suddenly all metal items are being pulled into the pit, causing Phil to be stabbed by a rebar, Dr. Chang's arm is trapped by a falling beam and Juliet is dragged into the chasm by a metal chain that while being pulled into the magnetic chasm somehow wraps itself around Juliet's mid-section. Miles manages to lift the beam and release Dr. Chang's injured hand. Meanwhile Sawyer grabs falling Juliet's hand. His and Kate's efforts to save Juliet are futile. After a tear-jerking goodbye where Juliet realises Sawyer's deep love for her, she lets go of Sawyer and falls to the bottom of the pit. Severely injured, Juliet sees the bomb lying next to her cushioned by the mud. Realizing her mortality, she picks a rock and hits the hydrogen bomb's thermonuclear core 8 times until it seemingly detonates.
My Internet isn't working on my computer so I'm back to the cell phone so please disregartd the many typos that will probably follow.
I haven't been able to read all the comments yet so I'm sorry if someone else has already posted this little theory but I was reading Blam where Richard might have been lying to Sun and I thought YES! That's it. Maybe he just wanted "evil Locke" to hear/think that. As usual I'm probably way off base but I think it's possible.
Wow, I can't believe how many comments there are in such a short time! Unless a new thread starts up I'm sure this one is going to go through the roof. At least 316? Or how about 815? Ok now I'm being a total geek...
Fab interview, Nik! i was thrilled that this one was even available here in the States, unlike the last one that I tried to pick up on. Glad to see that so many different folks are becoming aware of your books (and the blog, of course) and joining in the conversation.
I'm SO looking forward to watching the show again tonight when my fianceé gets home. I simply couldn't take it all in the first time around!
Nikki: "One of the ongoing themes of the show has been black and white, but that's to throw us off, because in the end, it's all grey."
I agree that the characters are grey, and it probably will come down to free will versus destiny/ choice vs. fate ....
But I'm still clinging to this black and white, good vs. evil. The entire episode I was waffling between 'is Jacob a good guy or bad guy?' When he seemingly orchestrates Nadia's death, bad. But when he apologizes to Locke after his fall, good.
Maybe I'm too narrow-minded, but I WANT things to be defined in black and white! Plus, the b & w stuff in LOST is way too intriguing. I hope we get another look at the black and white stones of Adam and Eve! And the reverse black and white image of the final LOST screen last night was too awesome.
So I hope Jacob and Maybesau do become a definite yin and yang. Otherwise, my brain will explode.
@Nikki: Sonshine! Did you hear me drop your theory in there! I was hoping you were listening. :) Awesome theory, and my fave so far today. ;)
I did. I was so tickled. Ahhhh. I love this show and I love your blog. :)
Hmm, on the subject of free will vs destiny, I can't see who would represent what between Jacob and his new secret love, Maybeseau. If Jacob is a representative of free will, why has he guided everyone to where they are? Is it to keep destiny intact (so to speak) or to put people in key positions to "break" destiny. If Jack and friends changed time only after the future version of Jacob dies (which implies that Jacob may not have died but instead been erased from time?), what is Jacob doing? Ensuring his own destruction? If so, then Maybeseau could be doing what Jacob wanted all along?
I feel like Homer Simpson staring at the word Gabbo REALLY HARD until Lisa comes along and points out the obvious, "Dad, I don't think they've given you enough information yet."
Also, I forgot to mention, Jacob mentions that he is trying to prove 'Maybeseau' wrong and that's why he brings people to the island, to prove his point. So in this case Jacob doesn't seem like a heroic figure, he seems more like Ben with charm.
@asiancolossus: Per your Illana and the Egyptian fabric piece theory - I think you are right. I found this pick via Dark UFO of the Jacob tapestry(http://spoilertv.iimmgg.com/image/4f0c0f11e09a18231b5e2725d57ac4cf) and it appears the bottom left corner is gone. It seems to be about the same size as the piece of fabric Illana found in the cabin. Very cool! I wonder if anyone has deciphered the Greek/Latin script on that tapestry yet?
I think its Jacks eye. They are just trying to throw us off by messing with the color. If its not, the only female on that set with green eyes is Kate. it would make sense seeing as she was supposed to be the original heroine so maybe they want to play with that a bit, but I think it is Jack. Can't be Charlotte. Damon and Carlton said they are weaning out. In effect, and I will use their analogy which I love, they have always known they are going to New York, and they have picked up hitch hikers along the way and stopped in cafes to get drunk but its always been destination NY. They then went on to mention Juliet, miles and a couple of others as the only non originals left. So, they wont be bringing Charlotte back. Their intention is to focus on their originales and for us to find out why they are there in the first place and what fate has in store for them. Juliet is gone. I suspect Miles will follow soon.
I haven't had time to go through all of the comments so I apologize if I'm repeating what someone else has said.
First I noticed that Jacob gave all the people he visited a gift, with the exception of Sayid. He bought the lunchbox for Kate, gave Sawyer the pen, gave Jack the candy bar, and gave Hurley the guitar.
Also I think this episode has a lot of religious themes. I think that Jacob and the other guy are more like Jesus and Satan. Jacob is all about giving the people a choice and free will, and the other guy is like the devil, who can't do what he wants, kill Jacob, so he tempts others, Ben, to do it for him. There could be something to that or it could be a big chess match between the two.
Nikki, am I the only one who thinks that wasn't Jacob off Island?
“You found your loophole.”
“Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I’ve gone through to get here.”
Was it man in black posing as Jacob. It would seem that he is smokey, Christian, Yemi, Kates horse, everyone who comes to visit Hugo. He has been affecting the lives of everyone we know for a long time to get to the point we just saw of him killing JAcob.
I feel like Homer Simpson staring at the word Gabbo REALLY HARD until Lisa comes along and points out the obvious, "Dad, I don't think they've given you enough information yet." Ha! I love it. That's how I feel often too.
And of course, even if we do have ALL the information needed to figure it out, we won't know if we did or not until the show ends.
@flexible: I suspect Miles will follow soon.
Ah! Not Miles. :( You're probably right, but that will make me sad :(
So can we asume that Jacob is the mysterious driver of the Bonneville of Destruction?
myselfixion: "So can we asume that Jacob is the mysterious driver of the Bonneville of Destruction?"
LOL!!! That just made me laugh out loud.
dan: "I feel like Homer Simpson staring at the word Gabbo REALLY HARD until Lisa comes along and points out the obvious, "Dad, I don't think they've given you enough information yet."
OK, that did, too. You guys are totally my entertainment today!! :)
AH! I have to go to work :( No one say anything too brillian while I'm gone.
Of course, that request is pointless, because ya'll are such a brilliant group. There will be way too many comments to catch up on at midnight. :sigh: Lost, you are my addiction
Sonshine: We will miss you! I actually have to head out in a few minutes to go to two appointments. But they're spaced with an hour in between, so I'm going to take my laptop with me and try to hop on here in the middle. :)
The Greek on Jacob's woven cloth is from Homer’s Odyssey: May the gods grant thee all that thy heart desires.
@rcullen: Walt also said that Locke was in a suit. So that must have been when he originally was on the hydra island since he changed at the camp.
It's been touched. But Adam and Eve did have those white and black stones. So either the Rose and Bernard story is not over, or the bodies are not theirs!
For anyone who doubts the bomb went off, there's actually an explosion as the sound goes white, not just a magnetic sound like when Desmond turned the key. This isn't proof of anything I know.
Also, can anyone direct me to the "eye at the end", I just can't seem to find it. Or is it at the end of the credits, 'cause I don't have that part!
Well, they dropped a bomb last night(budumpump)!
Wow. Amazing end to an amazing season. In the tradition of Lost finales, there's a lot to digest here, but I'll take it step by step.
HIGHLIGHTS:
Opening scene = strange God & Satan vibe with Jacob and the "other guy" watching the Black Rock out at sea
Jack vs. Sawyer = conversation was great, fight was greater
Jacob = what an odd, nice man (very Jesus-like) in all backstories
Barracks Shootout = Jack firing at the Dharma people was awesome; Sayid getting shot was out of nowhere
Juliet falling = unexpected
Jacob's line = "What about you?" to Ben. Cold, Jake, cold.
Locke's fate = Locke was really dead the entire time = major twist
Jughead = blast at end with white screen = EPIC
NITPICKS:
Juliet and Kate suddenly changing their minds = I get why they did it, I just feel like it was a bit rushed.
This episode, for me, was the best finale. This mainly deals with the one helluva cliffhanger at the end. As Ms. Hawking would say, for the first time in a long time, we have NO IDEA as to what is going to happen in the final season. It's gonna be a long wait til January 2010. It looks like the Heaven vs. Hell theory is gaining weight with Jacob being at war with this mysterious man who has taken over Locke's body. What he'll do next is up in the air. I still wonder who exactly Illana works for and how she knows Richard, but Jacob visited her, so she is definitely important. I laughed a bit when Jack confessed he was going to kill everyone just to heal his relationship with Kate, but hey, I got misty-eyed later. I'm a sucker for these characters and their personal lives. I'm glad Phil died, and am eagerly waiting to see Radzinsky blow his head off in the Swan...oh, wait, that may not happen anymore...I'm confused. Where's Claire? And isn't Desmond supposed to save everyone? After all, the rules of time-travel don't apply to him. But if the bomb went off, then...is it 2004 again? Or 2008?
I'm enjoying the idea that the Man in Black (Devilguy) is the smoke monster, and that he takes the form of everyone who is dead. He needed someone who could get close to Jacob, and Locke was the best candidate due to his leadership among the Others. Hence, when Richard is told to tell Locke that he must die in order to save everyone, the devilguy only needs Locke dead so he can take his form to kill Jacob. This is the same reason the monster let Ben live.
If you notice, Not-Locke stays outside the temple while Ben goes in. During this time, Not-Locke became the smoke monster and then became Alex, telling Ben to obey Locke. It then became Not-Locke again outside, and Ben told him what he was told, thinking that this man is really John Locke.
I love how it seems like the scales of confrontation on the show continue to escalate. First, it was the 815 survivors vs. each other. Then it was the 815ers vs. the Others. Then everyone vs. the Mercenaries. Then Ben vs. Widmore. Now it's Jacob vs. the devilguy!
If this man IS the monster, and it takes the shape of dead people, where is Christian's body? It's not in the coffin by the caves, so where did it go? Did Oceanic screw Jack and not but the body on the plane?
Also, I think the new best candidates for Adam and Eve are Rose and Bernard. Plus, did anyone get as excited as I did when Jack opened fire at the barracks? Awesome.
I lost track of Daniel's journal: anyone catch where it ended up? Do Jack/Sayid still have it, or did it get handed back to Eloise at some point?
I never read the book, but I like the idea of the Maybesau guy being the Bad Twin referred to by the manuscript.
I think that when the bomb detonates, somehow everyone flashes to 2008 for a showdown with Maybesau. Hence, Jacob's line "They're Coming".
Also, if Ilana and Bram work for Jacob's faction, many people think that Not-Locke doesn't have long to live, and that he will be shot when he exits the foot with Ben. I think, now that Jacob is dead, he will take the form of Jacob, say that Ben killed Locke, and that everyone will now follow him into his battle with the time-traveling (hopefully soon to be in 2008) Losties.
Great season finale, great recap!
One note--I don't see an error in which foot is shown on the statue. Seems it could be the left foot consistently, even seen from behind.
I will have to watch the show again tonight when I can cry on my own and 'squeeee' when I need to.
First laugh-out-loud moment: The writing credits at the beginning. Part 1: Damon and Carlton; Part 2: Carlton and Damon. My husband and I just loved that.
First gasp: The first beach scene - I just yelled at the screen "the Black Rock". My husband just looked at me (not for the yell but thinking it was that particular ship). Nothing is left to chance on LOST, hon.
Don't want to recap what others have said. Still sticking by my guns re. Sawyer and Juliet though. Kate is love lost - Juliet is the woman for him. He would not have broken down that way if it were not true.
Must go - need to cry again! sob....
Re: Ilana knowing about Locke and dead Locke:
I went back to that episode last night and when Ben comes up to her and asks if she needs any help with the box, she answers him that it's just something they need to get moved (I believe they already knew what was in it-I didn't rewatch the whole episode but I'm pretty sure they may have been shown in a prior shot closing it). You can see undead Locke on the shore looking out towards the ocean. This is right before Ceasar asks Ben what he thinks about Locke, etc. Why wouldn't Ilana and her crew just let him take off with Ben if they knew his dead body was in the bag...
Hey I was reading the TV Guide column and they mentioned after the Hbomb explosion and the screen turns to white with the LOST logo, there was an eyeball. I didn't pay much attention to it, but they said it was a female eyeball. Did anyone notice this, and what does this mean?
On Not-Locke's Motivation:
Why does he want all the Others to come with him to Jacob?
Why does Not-Locke have to have Richard show him where Jacob is? Is Not-Locke trying to play Locke's role well by pretending he doesn't know where Jacob is?
@asiancolossus: I keep reading the same thing and after 5 viewing of the end, I still see no eyeball. I don't know if it was on a specific broadcast or what.
@Maryelere: Maybe the motivation is to usurp Jacob in front of his followers. He certainly speak lowly of him in his speech to everyone.
Would he not fear a revolt, I do not know!
@brodal you're right, I recall that scene. But I'm still pretty sure i was not their original purpose to take care of the body. But they realized they could not afford to do anything stupid perhaps? Now what does it imply with regards
The eye is seen in the teaser for LOST season 6, right after the episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tdkjrrSpAI
@Benny:
I didn't tape the episode, was watching ABC HDTV up here in Canada, and I'm sure there was an eyeball, it was right after the LOST Destiny Found bit on the white screen, I didn't think much of it, in fact I just thought it was Jack's eye from the first episode. Its gotta mean something, especially if its a woman's eye...could it be Juliets?
Thanks, I didn't get the teaser on my feed.
Hunter said... stop evil-bro aka "Bad Twin"
I actually read that book (one of the few I've been able to find time to read) and from what I can remember, the bad brother was pretending to be the good brother...right? So any chance "Esau" figured out a way to make himself appear as Jacob. That way Richard wouldn't know what he was really trying to accomplish? Argh! My head is going to explode from going around in circles. How will I get anything accomplished today???
@Ali Bags: Did anyone notice Juliet touch her stomach protectively at one point?
Yes! Another thing I noticed was the way she reacted/answered Rose/Bernard when they offered her some tea. There was just something weird about it, like it trigered something in her mind. Maybe just my imagination.
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