“Every question I answer will lead to another.”“What’s dead?” “Something you will never have to worry about.”
“We are here for a reason.”
“Life... death... rebirth... it’s the source. The heart of the island.”
Whoa... uh... whoa. Um. Hm. How do I find words for that episode??
My husband and I just had a brief chat following the ep about whether an episode like this one, that reveals a lot of answers, is something I write more about or less? Or is it something where I just state the answers and say, “Cool, speculation on THAT one is over” slap hands together “looking forward to next week!”
I really enjoyed this episode. I didn’t find it to be quite the epic story that “Ab Aeterno” was, and there were actually a couple of scenes I thought dragged a wee bit, but we saw SO much of the island origins in this one... this is the one where, if you were to show a non-Lost fan, you’d pretty much ruin the entire series for them. Let’s not make this one the one we try to recruit new fans with, OK?
I’ve said it since season 1: The dominant theme of this show is black and white. And when you mix the two, you get grey. I think this episode finally showed us sympathy for the Man in Black, but also for Jacob. Neither one is good, neither is evil.
Answers:
• Jacob and “Jacob’s Brother” are... brothers.
• Smokey wasn't lying when he told Kate his mom was crazy.
• The kids we saw in the jungle really were the two boys as kids (EVERYONE told me that second one was just an older Jacob when I said it was probably the Boy in Black).
• The Frozen Donkey Wheel was somehow constructed by Smokey (since he didn’t actually make it before Brother died) as a way of getting off the island, but he couldn’t use it for some reason.
• The source of immortality seems to be in the wine that Mom gives to Jacob, the same wine that he gives to Richard Alpert. The same wine bottle that Smokey smashed.
• Smokey was created when Jacob actually killed his brother and turned him into some sort of smokey essence, forever trapped on the island and having an existence worse than death.
• Adam and Eve are Brother and Mom.
• The Man in Black has actually been dead in every scene we’ve seen him in so far... didn’t see THAT coming.
Highlights:
• “Every question I answer will lead to another.” Anyone else feel like that was Damon and Carlton addressing us directly??
• I loved Brother referring to spots on the island where “metal behaves strangely.”
• The
• Mom pulling out the two stones!! I yelled out loud, “OH MY GOD, SHE’S EVE!!” Husband: “Who’s Eve?” Me: “Sigh.”
• The birth of Smokey was pretty frakkin’ awesome.
• Adam and Eve!!! Thankyouthankyouthankyou... though it wasn’t Adam and Eve after all... more Eve and Cain.
Did You Notice?:
• Seeing a pregnant woman crawling out of the ocean immediately brought to mind Rousseau, and made me wonder about any possible connections. Just as this woman comes to the island and gives birth, Rousseau comes to the island and does the same. Smokey kills the rest of her team, but she is preserved (though driven mad by the circumstances). The baby goes over to the Others, and is ultimately killed. You’d think Smokey would do anything he could to preserve the one baby who arrived on the island – from across the sea, like him.
• The woman was wearing a red dress. Is that some old-fashioned, female version of a red ensign shirt? Same end result.
• And then CJ from The West Wing comes running out!!! I half-expected her to hold a press conference about the ship crash, carefully averting questions that might hurt her reputation in important political circles.
• When Island CJ first shows up, you can hear the whispers.
• The mother’s name is “Claudia,” which actually means lame or disabled in Latin.
• The other brother (who remains UNNAMED, like Claudia only had one name and Island CJ didn’t know what “names” were so she went with “Jacob” as the one name and “your brother” as the other) was hairy, compared to Jacob. At that moment I was convinced they were going to say his name was Esau.
• There was a subtle nod to history repeating itself. Island CJ delivers Claudia’s babies, and then takes them from her. Kate delivers Claire’s baby, and then raises him. CJ uses herbs and plants a garden the same way Sun did.
• Right from the beginning, the distinction between the brothers seems to be that Jacob is content with his lot in life, where the Bruthah in Black is the guy who believes there’s something else out there and longs to see it. He’s the ambitious one.
• Anyone else think “Two players, two sides, one white, one black” when the boys began playing their game?? It also made me wonder if my season 6 cover should be a black stone and a white stone instead...
• The "So... do you want to play or don't you, Jacob?" certainly set up the idea of the island as a colossal game between two big players. Later, the "One day you can make up your own game and everyone else will have to follow your rules" was pretty awesome, too. The number of times they showed these two playing a game certainly made our poor Oceanic survivors look like nothing more than pawns.
• The boy wants to know if there’s somewhere else across the sea. The term “Across the Sea” was repeated throughout (and not just to drive home the title) which immediately brought to mind that season 1 episode where Shannon sat on the beach and sang “La Mer,” the French version of the song “Beyond the Sea” that she always heard in Finding Nemo. The song has been referenced a couple of times, but that was the most obvious one. Did she become a target when she sang that?
• “You are special.” So the Bruthah in Black is referred to the same way as John Locke and Walt. Smokey originally looked like Bruthah, then John Locke, but Walt is also tied into both of them through Shannon (who sang “La Mer”) and appearing to John Locke.
• Anyone else have Xena flashbacks when they saw the getups of the men killing the boar?
• Island Mama says, “They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, and it always ends the same,” which is what the Man in Black said in “The Incident” when sitting on the beach with Jacob. Interesting that he would quote the woman who destroyed his life, in a sense.
• Brother can see dead people... which now links him to Hurley. Is Hurley special, too? Would Miles count in that category? (He doesn’t see them, but talks to them.)
• Brother leaves Mom and Jacob chooses to stay with her. Being on the island seems to always be about choosing sides, whether, in season 1, you stayed with Sayid on the beach or went to the caves with Jack, or followed Jack in season 4 or Locke, or choose to do Jacob’s bidding or the Man in Black’s in season 6... it’s always about sides. Alpert was torn between the two sides when he first came, too. Again, it pulls in the metaphor of this show of black and white, good and evil, and the choices we make on a daily basis to do good or succumb to temptations.
• Island CJ tells Jacob, “I needed you to stay good.” She convinces him in this scene that he’s the good guy... does that make him the good guy? Contrast this scene on a log on the beach with the previous one with the Brother in Black... in that scene she tells him how special he is. Allison Janney plays the role beautifully... you can really see the contrast in the way she looks at the two boys, and can tell that she really does have a preference for the Brother.
• I often heard the whispers whenever the camera would flash by the mother.
• The dagger that Brother throws is the same one Dogen had, and the same one he asked Alpert to kill Jacob with.
• Brother seems angry after spending 30 years with the people (who are distinguished from themselves as being greedy and manipulative and selfish, as if Jacob and Brother don’t possess those faults as well) and Jacob seems to inhabit goodness, but only in his naivety.
• When I saw Brother stoking the charcoal in the fire, I was a little worried there would be a Peter Parker-type of incident where he’d be thrown in the fire and emerge a... smoke monster. (Nope, that was to come a little later!!)
• When Mama and Jacob go to the light in the cave at night, it seems much dimmer than it had been in the day, as if the light is going out because of her becoming tired.
• Jacob had used the wine bottle as the metaphor of the island... in the scene where he drinks from it, she uncorks the wine bottle, giving us the insinuation she’s actually doing something bad here, and not good, in the context of Jacob’s speech in “Ab Aeterno.”
• Jacob wants to stay on the island, and Brother wants to leave. What a strange island that the smokey essence of Brother now looks like Locke, the one person who did not want to leave the island.
• “There’s a storm coming.” “Yes there is.” And the award for Line with Most Obvious Use of Foreshadowey Symbolism goes to...
• Did anyone else think, when Brother stood among the burning huts gritting his teeth, “And THAT, kids, is how Anakin became Darth Vader!”
• I thought the dying tilt of Mom’s head was a little forced. “Thank you...” YOINK to the immediate right. It seemed like a death scene I’d watch in a high school play.
• Seeing Brother lying in the water reminded me of when Boone found Shannon in the water in “Hearts and Minds.”
• So I remember back when Jack found the bodies in the cave, he said by the state of decomposition the bodies had been dead for 50 or 60 years. Um... either he TOTALLY sucked in autopsy class or the bodies decomposed at such a slow rate because of the healing properties of the island, or because she was ageless. But HE wasn’t ageless, so...
• I think I’m kind of in love with Titus Welliver.
So Many Questions...
• Jacob only calls him “Brother,” making him sound an awful lot like a certain Scot on the island. Could that be a link to Desmond?
• At this point I’m assuming this section won’t be answered if it’s minor... but what happened to Island CJ’s mother? She said, “She’s dead” and I wonder if she killed her somehow? Does the cycle just continue? Was she ageless like CJ and Jacob?
• How did the boys possibly not notice another tribe on the island for 13 years? Not sure I buy that one.
• So what exactly is the light in the cave? It looks beautiful, she says it’s the warmest, brightest light you’ve ever seen, but no one must ever find it. She says a little bit of that light is inside every man, but they always want more. So what is it? Goodness? Evil? Testosterone? It sounds like it’s good, but then look what it does at the end? And how would it be able to get them off the island via the Frozen Donkey Wheel Express? Mom says if the light goes out here, it goes out everywhere, and they have to preserve it, which would suggest it’s a good thing...? Will it be explained, or will it be like the glow in the briefcase that Vincent Vega opens in Pulp Fiction? Or in the trunk in Repo Man?
• How old is the mother? She doesn’t age physically, but I wonder how many years? -- decades? centuries? -- she was there before the boys arrived?
• OK, gaming experts: Is that a real game that Jacob and his brother are playing? Is it a primitive form of chess? Checkers? Go?
• If being near the light does something to you worse than death, then when Brother lets the beam of light into the room, why doesn’t anything happen? How did having that light travel through Ben and Locke change them in some way when they jumped off the island via FDW Express?
• How did the donkey wheel end up frozen?
• So... did Smokey then take the form of the dead Brother and that’s what we saw in “The Incident” talking to Jacob and “Ab Aeterno” talking to Richard? If he’s dead, why is he still longing to leave the island? In what form could he do that?
• The synopsis for this episode on my PVR was, “John Locke’s motives are finally revealed.” Really? That makes it sound obvious. So... his motives for killing all those people is to get off the island and... wait, we already knew that LAST week. How did this episode clarify any of that?
Me tomorrow:
I’m on Facebook! Come and find me. I am here. :)
Tomorrow listen in to Marshall and Forbes on The Ocean 98.5 in Victoria, BC at 7:10 a.m. local time, 10:10 a.m. EST. Go here and click on the Listen Now button if you’re out of the listening area.
And tomorrow at noon I will once again be participating in the Globe and Mail Lost chat from noon to 1pm EST. Go here to ask questions and comment. See you there!
And finally, listen to KEX 1190 at 6:20 p.m. PST, 9:20 p.m. EST where I’ll be on the Mark & Dave show (and they’re big Lost fans so it’s always fun). Go here and click the Listen Now button.
Next week:
I joked when they announced “The End” would be the title of the finale, “How long before they start using the Doors’ song in previews?” Apparently... right about now. ;)
430 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 430 Newer› Newest»The Man In Black and His Agenda:
Though while I feel for Jacob and his naive acceptance of an undesirable job, I feel even worse for the Man In Black. In 6.02 (LA X, Part II), he told us what he wanted more than anything was to go home. Now we know that home is a place he's never been. He may have been the more likely candidate for Island protector, based on his Special nature, but his mind has always been across the sea, trying to get away, trying to find out where he came from. We don't yet know why Mother restrained him -- was it simply a demented way of protecting him from the "evils" that lie out in the world beyond? (I suspect so). Or was there a more direct consequence of his leaving the Island even before his transformation? (possibly). Either way, his efforts to leave got him a rum deal: his life's work destroyed, his companions obliterated, and (after some heated revenge) his own life snuffed away as his soul endures something "worse than death." It's interesting that his body was left behind after he was dropped into the mother of all Island electromagnetic energy pockets and turned into the Smoke Monster we all know and love, but more interesting are the ramifications that he is a creation of the Island's heart: most likely a PART of the Island itself, intrinsic to the Island, and necessary to the Island. In a rather epic instance of poetic irony, the man who wanted nothing more than to leave the Island has become the Island's linchpin: the Island can't function without him, and if he leaves, all electromagnetic hell will break loose. At least now we know why seeing visions of kid Jacob pisses him off so much.
So in true LOST tradition, we can now sympathize with a character who hurt us possibly more than any other character by essentially murdering three of our favorite heroes just last episode (6.14 [The Candidate]). To anyone wondering why the writers chose now to reveal this back story, THAT's the reason. It's the narrative moment wherein understanding what past torments the Man In Black has suffered contributes most powerfully to the present day story. The writers love revealing a "big bad" character and then making us feel for them by revealing their prior woes -- and I love it every time. So we may despise the Man In Black still, and of course we want him to fail in his objectives, but now we can truly pity him. And the endgame of the show will be all the more powerful for it.
Jacob & His Agenda:
I hold by my previous assertion: Jacob brings people to the Island because he wants humanity to prove that humanity is worth protecting the Island for. It might not make logical sense to allow folks like Dharma to run around when your mission is to make sure no one screws with the Island's electromagnetic heart -- but it makes PERFECT sense to do so, if you were never certain that your mission was valuable to begin with. We have to wonder why Mother bothered to protect all of existence if she hated other people so much; and I believe Jacob wondered this as well, and conducted his experiments on humanity in an effort to figure it all out. He'd been told they were corrupt, but he never wanted to believe that -- not as long as it was his long life's purpose to protect them. So he continued his mission to protect the Island, but tolerated so many people putting it at risk upon his "summons" in order to see if they deserved protection. And now that he's dead and it's up to his Candidates to finish the job, he's primarily sitting back to watch and see who will step forward for the sake of humanity and existence as we know it.
On the Anatomy of Disappointment:
As a side note, a lot of fans seem down on this episode -- and it's certainly their prerogative to like it as much as they please -- but having been thrilled by it myself, I'm really not satisfied by that most common of internet-propagated explanations: that "it sucked." It really didn't. I tend not to get excited by things that suck. So where was the disconnect here between fans and writers? Certainly the usual complaint that few clear answers were given applies here once again, but perhaps it hits harder for people due to the unique nature of the episode -- I think many viewers really wanted Jacob and the Man In Black to KNOW everything about the Island and to be able to provide us with a checklist of explanations. Instead, we were here shown that they were once just as clueless as the survivors of Oceanic 815. And we were shown how they were led and/or duped into their current roles as Island protector and energy embodiment by someone else once drawn to the Island. What this episode did was to completely and thoroughly humanize the two characters, flaws and all. Letting their story unfold over the course of the episode allows us a level of understanding of their mindsets that will service us well going into the Series Finale. The "answers" everyone wants will be elaborated on further in what's to come, but now we'll understand on a psychological level where Jacob and the Man in Black are coming from. And personally, I'm very glad they took the time to allow us that level of depth.
And that's where we are!
Much better upon a second viewing. If you thought those 43 minutes went by fast last night, you should see how fast it goes by on number 2 view.
I am happy with this episode now. Darlton can't win. Some of us are unhappy that we've gotten some mysteries spoon fed to us (whispers), or they don't live up to our own theories (destruction of the statue), and others are upset that we're not getting ENOUGH answers. Well, we needed these answers. Do we need to know where notMother came from? I for one don't need to. She could have been there for centuries just WAITING for the miracle that came onto that beach with Claudia. Was she evil? Was she Smokey? Did she know about Smokey? If she wasn't smokey, then she was some other super-human. She was all knowing and could not tell all. Just like Jacob does not tell all. Maybe part of the island's mystique is that the protector has to learn by experience. Telling will only ruin it all. Rose and Bernard have never needed to know everything. They have just accepted, and they are the better for it. I can also accept now how Jacob seemed to accept his death at the hand of Ben. He knew it was only a matter of time before he was bested, and he knew he deserved it. But he also set it up so that his rules were still in play. He has been at least four moves ahead of MIB throughout, and at least two of the candidates left are seemingly on board as well.
It's all a ride, my friends, and it doesn't get any better than this. LOST will be done in 11 days. No snowglobe, no fade to black, no prosecution for violating a good samaritan law, no one getting married and having babies. It will simply END. And I for one will simply be grateful for having seen it and for having been a part of this community.
I was wondering if perhaps the boys' real mother was a manifestation of Smokey; it already wanted to leave the Island and, sensing a kindred spirit in MIB, manipulated him with the truth, figured it could ride along on his coattails.
In regard to Smokey being evil, its actions show it to be so regardless of how sympathetic MIB was: it will stop at nothing, including numerous murders, to get what it wants.
@Gracie: I'm from the camp who believes that Smokey IS MiB and was created when he entered the source. So to me, Claudia was really Claudia's ghost and the Mother was really her.
Also, I've read often the mention of the light dimming. After a few rewatch of that scene, I think the dimming occurs simply because of the Smoke coming up and covering the light, I don't think it's in any way an actual dimming of the light/source.
@redeem: I don't see what the presence of Jacob or Locke's bodies shows (also, Jacob's body was burned). Also, I don't see any evidence of Smokey existing., not even the camp fire.
Given that the writers dubbed this episode the 'Smokey' episode, I'm inclined to believe we saw Smokey's story and transformation.
On to replies to Nikki's post, with apologies if anything's redundant, but I've still barely started on the... wait, scratch that... and that... updating... 205 comments yet...!
Nikki: The source of immortality seems to be in the wine that Mom gives to Jacob, the same wine that he gives to Richard Alpert.
I didn't get that it conferred the immortality per se so much as the overall label of Island guardian and all that that entails. Which now that I think about it probably includes the immorality. Kinda sneaky of Jacob to imply that it was his touch or blessing or wish that made Richard unable to die rather than a swig o' the vino, wasn't it? He learned something from his mother and brother in that regard, because earlier in life Momma taught him how to be crafty but only Esau learned how be crafty. Good call on Esau breaking the bottle, too! Don't we think, though, that maybe the incantation would work on whatever imbibement needed to be imbued with the properties of long-life libation?
@Benny. Have you seen this twice? I mean no disrespect, you know that!!
I was just "WOW, how did I NOT see that?" watching Mom in the hole the second time. It appears to be nothing more than a set-up. She does everything but scream "Guilty!"
Maybe I need to go back and see WHY you say you believe as you do, but I would think I would have seen that by now. Is your reasoning in your comments?
@Benny: One other thing regarding your theory and/or mine. Are you interested in something I just noticed that might change your mind? It's probably going to drive home MY final nail regarding the Smoke Monster? I have discovered two things through the second watch that I haven't seen in the comments thus far today. Granted, I'm not all the way through the comments, but I can't find them by searching for the appropriate words either. They can be taken two ways, but after all the time spent pointing this out to us and beating us over the head with it, I'm kinda stunned that nobody has brought this up yet as well as surprised to see it done correctly. But I cannot get the lay-out down right? So, I have offerings but need your help to finish the set-up. Make sense? Or does anybody else want to jump in on this with me?
@Gracie: Can sure try to have a go at it, what did you catch?
Now remember I can't lay it all up yet. But first I believed from the hole conversation that Mom was Smokey because she just had that whole "guilty" thing going on on her face. I also thought Smokey brought in Claudia's ghost (much as any other ghost has been used)to help divide to conquer. Her ghost, and his ability to see her, was part of what helped convince MIB that he belonged in the other camp.
Then as I was re-watching, I just saw it. How many times have we been told that the only way to kill this thing, is to stab it with THAT knife, BEFORE it has an opportunity to talk to you first? And that's just what MIB did! He walked up behind her with his knife, didn't speak a word, and stabbed her in the back.
Now there is the second way to interpret that. Was it coincidence? Did he just want to stab her and get it over with quickly, therefore he snuck up behind her and said nothing? I don't think so. We've been told so many times, that's the only way!!
And it was successfully done. AM I RIGHT?? But if I'm right, how did MIB know to do that?? Who told him? Also, I cannot recall where the knife originated? And Spouse and I would like to know if you'll shall: in your theory, if she is NOT the Smoke Monster, how did the hole get filled in and that camp wiped out?
I just hopped over to Lostpedia to see what I could find. It's posted under Ancient Dagger, and this is first, "Whoever wields the dagger must plunge it into the chest of either Jacob or the Man in Black before any words are exchanged if the dagger is to kill the party. (Spouse and I see no difference whether the knife goes front to back or back to front as long as it hits the mark.)
The dagger probably came to the Island with the Latin-speaking castaways from Claudia's ship. The Man in Black used it to demonstrate to Jacob the strange electromagnetic properties he had discovered in places on the Island by throwing it wildly and it being attracted to the magnetic stones. The Man in Black used the dagger to stab Mother in the back and kill her."
Also, she thanked him when he killed her. I believe this was for releasing the hold Smokey or the island had on her.
I do think Jacob is good, & the MIB is evil. This episode did not change that. The MIB clearly just wants to use people ie. "They are a means to an end." Jacob is truly curious about them. Jacob is not so selfish as MIB. Even though he hurts MIB (perhaps kills him)...it's crime of passion to avenge the death of his mother. That's very different than MIB just wiping people out like he does.
I thought the game might be "go" to. The game in this episode is not "go" though. It's an egyptian game ...senet is the name, I think. go is pretty ancient also. It's played on a grid also. it is asian in origin though. It also involves light & dark stones.
@Gracie:if she is NOT the Smoke Monster, how did the hole get filled in and that camp wiped out?
I think one of the things your post is leading to is whether or not Mother led MiB along to become her murderer. This is much like a repeat of the Jacob, Ben, and false Locke encounter in the broken Tarewet statue. MiB showed an innate knowledge of things, as when he just knew how to play Senet. Jacob had no idea what the rules were, but his brother did. Hence, Mother knew that MiB had an initmate link with the island and all that it offered--this may have been why he was special. If this is so, then MiB would also know how to kill Mother, and her "thank you" indicates she hoped for this end by him. (Why? That's still a big question).
But she had a plan. I suspect she hoped he would have remorse over what he had done, enough to give up on his desire to leave the island. He would then take up his place of protecting the island. However, Jacob interfered, and his anger over the death of Mother led Jacob to murder his brother in revenge. (From an anthropological point of view, MiB's killing Mother is part of a ceremonial ritual, one we see in Frazer's The Golden Bough where the usurper/slave kills the old king and takes his place as new king. However, Jacob did not interpret the event as a ritual-murder, but saw it only as matricide, requiring revenge).
If this scenario seems right, then Mother failed in her bid to establish MiB as the island's protector, and she managed to get the default child (i.e. Jacob) into that role. This is akin to the Esau/Jacob Old Testament story, where Jacob usurps Esau's rightful role (indeed, Jacob means "usurper"). I am of the opinion Jacob was never meant to run the island, that it was his brother (and after all, MiB agreed with the philosophy of Mother regarding humans: corrupt, destory etc.).
On another note, I don't think Mother is Smokie. But she does have some wierd and dark mojo. She seems more like a witch, which is what I think she is. She could put a spell, or use a drug to incapacitate the humans at the camp, then quickly and safely go about and kill them. As for filling in the hole, we just have to buy she did that somehow, much as we buy that Ethan has superhuman strength, that a fertility doctor can fight like Jackie Chan, that if you're Russian and lacking in an eye it will take a hellva lot to kill you, and that drug addits overcome addiction with little pain.
I hope Benny didn't fall asleep while I was typing all that! LOL
@Gracie:
I'm here... just watching Happy Town while writing my reply!
Here's a curio of a thought. Mother shows Jacob the cave with the light and tells him he must protect it from humans, that they are greedy and want it. Now supposing Mother's first pick was MiB, but it looked like that wasn't going to work out, so she moves onto ther default position (Jacob).
Now, from a logical point of view, if you are Jacob and you know you must protect the island, wouldn't you think to NOT bring people to it. yeh yeh, I know, Jacob sees the good in people. But as his brother said, he's looking from up on high. Even from up high, ants look like the most benevolent society. So Jacob really isn't doing his job.
Smokie therefore has to go around killing all these invitees to the island. (Of course, he may leave Rose and Bernard alone because those two really have no interest in anything but living out their days in peace). So Smokie really is a kind of security system--the junkyard dog.
Basically, all of LOST is because Jacob made a huge mess and now he's got to clean it up, i.e. put Smokie back in the cave and find a replacement, who's not as gullable as he is. (Oh, and we've heard that phrase before, "Clean up your own mess"). Is this LOST in a nutshell? No great questions of faith, religion or truth. Just some guy who spilled the metaphoric soup on the floor and is now cleaning it up.
To make this SO much easier for everyone, I'm replying to Fred's comments from
May 12, 2010 10:12 PM.
Obviously, I have enormous respect for your points of view, whether you agree with me or not, so thank you for your time and efforts Fred. Do you then have an alternative theory on the origins of MIB/Smokey, or do you agree with Benny that there never was a Smokey until MIB rolled into that cave? (That is if I understand Benny correctly?) I ask because you seem to be turning away, per se, from a ton of evidence as if you having a guiding light pointing you somewhere else.
I definitely think something was snarky with Mom, and you just gave me a whole new way to look at it, since I did not consider that she set up her own murder.
I thought the reason that she had thanked him was because in killing her "successfully" or "correctly" he released her from the grip Smokey had on her, but you guys seem to think no? Okie dokie then. Then I dunno either why she would thank him, but she obviously got something more than we know from it.
Did you know about the knife and the stabbing done correctly? I did a search for the words on the page, and did not find anything as it related to either one.
And I'll have to come back to your second post as I see that Benny has replied and my fingers are refusing movement in anticipation of reading his post also.
@Dharmalady - That's very different than MIB just wiping people out like he does.
True but MiB didn't do that until Mom destroyed and killed his whole world and everyone in it. He didn't start to kill others until after Jake turned him into Smokey. What Jacob did to MiB was worse than death (worse than killing, then) - as stated by their own Fake Mom Who Was Crazy. Or FMWWC (pronounced 'Fimwick'). I do respect your opinion - I think I just have a crush on MiB and I am not particularly fond of the Heavily Browed Jacob. I certainly don't mean to be jerky towards you :)
@Fred - Just some guy who spilled the metaphoric soup on the floor and is now cleaning it up.
I heard that, Brotha. That is what I am all anxious about. I phrased it as a pissing contest...I think your take is more accurate.
@Gracie: I'll take in in segments.
Claudia - We've been told Smokey has no connection to the ghosts, so I'm confused as to what you mean by Smokey brought in Claudia's ghost. Since Jacob cannot see her, we know she is not a manifestation of Smokey.
Visit - When Jacob comes back from talking with his brother, he tells his mother that MiB has found a way to leave the island. She leaves camp and goes to the 'village'. Her guilt stems from knowing what she is about to do (or has done), she knows she will do something horrible to her 'son' and will suffer the consequences.
Dagger - It is of Roman design, so I'm pretty sure it comes from the castaways.
Stabbing - In truth, we were only told ONCE that this was the way to kill him.
One issue with the stabbing is, Mother has talked to them for thirteen (13) years in their youth and also talked to MiB in the well. So if one believes she is Smokey, one should believe she already had power over him.
But... my interpretation of the "directions" are completely different from most. I think MiB told Richard to do so to prevent him from being persuaded.
As for Sayid... he did come back and got a confession that Dogen was hoping Locke would have killed him. So the instruction could easily be construed as misdirection, Dogen trying to convince Sayid to gain his trust.
Interpretation - One interpretation is that these directions were established given that this is how the Mother died.
Was it coincidence? Did he just want to stab her and get it over with quickly, therefore he snuck up behind her and said nothing? I don't think so. We've been told so many times, that's the only way!!
I personally don't think it's coincidence. I think it's imagery on the part of the writers. And as I said, we were told only once (when Dogen tried to fool Sayid) that this was how to kill him.
Attack/Filling - Personally, I do think she did it all on her own. She has special abilities (giving immortal life, preventing the brothers from killing each other) and we've seen the Others having above-average strength. It is highly likely that she has the ability to kill groups of people and work hard in a fast way.
I also add a few things to this.
Using the idea of repeated dialogue. BiB/MiB says that "He just wants to go home". This is a copy of what Locke tells Sayer (among others) about his intentions. Is that coincidental or is it indicative of them being the same?
Throughout the episode, we never heard the indicative 'tika tika' sound, until the pillar of smoke rose from the source. This doesn't mean that they are the same entity, but it certainly would lend credence to the ideas that they are the same, or that Smokey was only released at the end; both suggest that Smokey was not present throughout the episode.
I also believe that MiB is not dead, for two reasons:
1. Mother made it so that the brothers cannot kill each other; and,
2. Going into the light, "you'd be worse than dying [...] Much worse."
Both these reinforce the idea that MiB is not dead, but in fact transformed. He no longer is a corporeal entity (as Jacob finds his deceased body, believing him to actually be dead).
There are more reasons why I believe what I believe; some I can't word properly, other I can put forth on this blog.
I'm also trying to catch-up on the discussion you are having with Fred.
Sorry Fred: My eyes deceived me. Back to this posted by Fred: "On another note, I don't think Mother is Smokie. But she does have some wierd and dark mojo. She seems more like a witch, which is what I think she is. She could put a spell, or use a drug to incapacitate the humans at the camp, then quickly and safely go about and kill them."
Is this not speculation though? Or on what do you base this since we both saw the same thing? Admittedly, I am speculating, but I was under the impression that until the final "The End" we are all speculating or putting together puzzle pieces that factually fit. I am in no way saying that her being a witch is a bad idea, I'm just curious where you are actual going that pushed Smokey aside to allow you to follow your planned route until you came back to Smokey and the witch theory fit in with wherever your major theory is heading. Above and beyond that is the time limit. Some of these story lines have to start wrapping up. You seem to be making more for yourself. (What did I just say?)
Fred I hope that makes sense because I have a feeling that if I reread it myself, I'm not gonna understand it, and then I won't submit it at all.
Not totally crazy. Found out earlier there were subtitles during Mother's & Claudia's conversation. The bottom of the screen in my area was covered by local flood info so I missed it all. Sure it's not earthshattering info but if anyone knows I'd appreciate it!
HAPPY TOWN
If you're not watching, you're missing out... BIG TIME!
@Benny - They canceled Happy Town. I hadn't seen it yet :(
As for Mother thanking him, I think that relates to relieving her of her role as protector of the island.
A lot of people are complaining as to where she comes from, who she is, who was her mother, how did she get her powers.. etc.
I think the easy answer is: she is the previous Jacob! Plain and simple. What we saw, her giving responsibility over to Jacob can be seen as the beginning AND the end of ones' protectorate cycle. Changing of the guard. Evidence is how she tells Jacob that, one day, he will also have to find his own replacement. Just as her predecessor had found and chosen her.
So she basically thanks MiB for somewhat relieving her of the heavy burden she has endured for who knows how long... Jacob had been the protector for two millenia!
Joan: I know, tt's unfortunate, the show is SOOOOOO good. It's just too bad most shows requiring a long term perspective, without a quick within-show resolution, never pan out with american viewers, unless it's reality ;(
The 3rd episode aired tonight and the show is coming back in June (after sweeps) to air the remaining 5 (I think?). I can only hope they have some form of closure, unlike Twin Peaks!
Shows with season(s)-long story arcs never survive (Dollhouse, FlashForward, TwinPeaks). I know the FlashForward early production issues were big in losing viewers. I also think what saved Fringe is how they also introduced most shows as single entities where there was a clear intro-conflict-resolution structure and could be seen as a stand alone, while a deeper story arc was also being built.
In any case, if you are able I suggest you check it out, you may very well like it. Plus, you know there are only 8 episodes.
Right back at ya Benny. I've got your whole post right here with me and breaking it down with you.
Claudia - This was my bad. When I'm not in hurry or trying to type to keep up with everyone, I usually say MIB/Smokey as if they're one and the same. What I referring to was when Smokey/MIB has appeared to as Yemi, Libby, Christian, etc. I felt that by MIB being able to see his mother when Jacob could not, that was a nod to MIB that he WAS special, and to go wherever she told him to go. IE, the other camp. Then I know that I must be getting tired because this comment makes no sense right now, simply because several people have seen people that other people did not see: "Since Jacob cannot see her, we know she is not a manifestation of Smokey." You will have to further explain that which I will not ask you to do, or I'll come back tomorrow and look at it again.
Visit - Yes, but I took all of this to mean that part of her knew she was being violated by the Smoke Monster and any rational part of her knew that Smokey was going to use her being to make her do something ghastly to her son that Smokey wanted done. Ahhhhh, I just caught myself doing that again. Dang, Gracie, we don't know that Smokey can blow his nose without a body to do it in! Sorry!! When I don't keep them together i.e. MIB/Smokey I can just get Smokey to do all sorts of things of his/its own free will and when did anybody decide it even had one! See? It gets a little confusing living inside this head at times. I know the facts of what's going on, but if I just ease up on myself a little bit, I can have a field day with this story! Again, I know where I was headed, but logically couldn't get there from here.
Dagger - I posted what I found from Lostpedia, and they believe that it originally arrived on island from Claudia's shipmates.
Stabbing - This I have to disagree with, as off the top of my head, the proper usage of this knife was given to Richard to use against Jacob, I think. And then again, by Dogen to Sayid regarding MIB. Is this not correct? It swings both ways is what I understood. If it will kill MIB/Smokey, it also could have killed Jacob.
One issue with the stabbing is, Mother has talked to them for thirteen (13) years in their youth and also talked to MiB in the well. So if one believes she is Smokey, one should believe she already had power over him. Something here is playing with my head. It looks good to me on the surface, but for some reason my brain wants to discard it. If I know I really, really don't like the way something feels to me, I don't reply. This looks good, feels wrong. I'll come back and look again tomorrow.
But... my interpretation of the "directions" are completely different from most. I think MiB told Richard to do so to prevent him from being persuaded.
As for Sayid... he did come back and got a confession that Dogen was hoping Locke would have killed him. So the instruction could easily be construed as misdirection, Dogen trying to convince Sayid to gain his trust. On this one I know exactly what you're saying, but I've always understood it to be the same: Kill it by stabbing it in the chest before it opens it's mouth. Therefore there is no persuasion or ability to get into a situation you cannot get out of. SIMPLY KILL IT BEFORE IT SPEAKS. Also, another example of this came from Claire, who informed somebody that they were with FLocke now because they allowed FLocke to talk to them (I cannot tell you to save my butt who that was, but you know I know who that is! Just can't locate it in the mental drawer right now).
Interpretation - One interpretation is that these directions were established given that this is how the Mother died.
Was it coincidence? Did he just want to stab her and get it over with quickly, therefore he snuck up behind her and said nothing? I don't think so. We've been told so many times, that's the only way!!
I personally don't think it's coincidence. I think it's imagery on the part of the writers. And as I said, we were told only once (when Dogen tried to fool Sayid) that this was how to kill him. There is imagery from the writers, I agree. But at this late date, I still think some of these story lines have got to start wrapping up. There is still way too much going on all over the map.
Something got lost because at the end I have an incomplete sentence of yours, Benny. Also you told me all of this without ever telling me YOUR personal theory! Yeah, I noticed.
Attack/Filling - Personally, I do think she did it all on her own. She has special abilities (giving immortal life, preventing the brothers from killing each other) and we've seen the Others having above-average strength. It is highly likely that she has the ability to kill groups of people and work hard in a fast way. Okay in light of the fact that I was already here with this one today, I'll roll over and play dead on this one.
I also add a few things to this.
Using the idea of repeated dialogue. BiB/MiB says that "He just wants to go home". This is a copy of what Locke tells Sayer (among others) about his intentions. Is that coincidental or is it indicative of them being the same? FLocke/MIB IS home. This island is the only place he's ever been, and every time I've asked just exactly where is it that this dude wants to go, I have not seen a reply to my inquiry. It indicates to me that he wants to keep his story the same for everyone so as to not trip himself up by lying and getting caught.
Throughout the episode, we never heard the indicative 'tika tika' sound, until the pillar of smoke rose from the source. This doesn't mean that they are the same entity, but it certainly would lend credence to the ideas that they are the same, or that Smokey was only released at the end; both suggest that Smokey was not present throughout the episode. Point well made. I'll give you this one.
I also believe that MiB is not dead, for two reasons:
1. Mother made it so that the brothers cannot kill each other; and, True, although I had and still have a rough time taking anything she said literally as gospel because she was nuttier than a fruitcake. But this IS what she said. We are familiar with this concept though as it is similar to what Jacob gave Richard in a sense. The inability to die.
2. Going into the light, "you'd be worse than dying [...] Much worse."
Both these reinforce the idea that MiB is not dead, but in fact transformed. He no longer is a corporeal entity (as Jacob finds his deceased body, believing him to actually be dead).
I had a take on this that is only my own, and that is just something that I took away from a friend of mine who was comatose and died. To me worse than death is that what mentally remains of MIB is still there where his body lies and remains active and alert. His body will break down and deteriorate but his mind is very much alive and knows what is going on on this island around him. He cannot move, speak or do anything that implies life, but he is aware. Is that pathetically sad, or what? But that is a fate worse than death.
There are more reasons why I believe what I believe; some I can't word properly, other I can put forth on this blog.
I'm also trying to catch-up on the discussion you are having with
P.S. to Benny: I hope you pardoned the typos there. I'm now more certain than I have been in a long time that the nerve damage in my hand is alive and well, but hell, I enjoyed that!! Just pardon my mess in getting it back to you. I'm taking a break and reading for a bit though. And I'm sure I've gotten something back from Fred.
@Benny said: As for Mother thanking him, I think that relates to relieving her of her role as protector of the island. A lot of people are complaining as to where she comes from, who she is, who was her mother, how did she get her powers.. etc. I think the easy answer is: she is the previous Jacob! Plain and simple. What we saw, her giving responsibility over to Jacob can be seen as the beginning AND the end of ones' protectorate cycle. Changing of the guard. Evidence is how she tells Jacob that, one day, he will also have to find his own replacement. Just as her predecessor had found and chosen her. So she basically thanks MiB for somewhat relieving her of the heavy burden she has endured for who knows how long... Jacob had been the protector for two millenia!
I will reply to this one because originally I was one of the biggest "whiners" if not the biggest. Later I came to understand it as the changing of the guard also. But I think there are some stories that might not need a beginning, as I think I posted earlier today, but this one they've involved us in the whole ball of wax, all of this detail and the attention paid to it, so I'd just like to ask, "What started this?" Or perhaps that will be answered for me if they tell me what is so all-fired important that they're protecting. That's why I hung my hat on "Hope". I don't remember if you went back and reread the whole thing I did on that because I'm getting tired now and I didn't sleep last night, but Hope is a big deal. If it's something like Hope, then how did we get to this? What started this? I think in a show that has given so much, a quick peek at how it started isn't much. Let me go find something and I'll post it as soon as I get back. Hang on a sec.
The Wi-Fi's up! More comments on Nikki's post while I can...
Nikki: I yelled out loud, “OH MY GOD, SHE’S EVE!!” Husband: “Who’s Eve?” Me: “Sigh.”
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!! It must be a deep, deep love.
Nikki: When Island CJ first shows up, you can hear the whispers.
Really?
Nikki: I often heard the whispers whenever the camera would flash by the mother.
Are they in your house? 8^)
Nikki: The mother’s name is “Claudia,” which actually means lame or disabled in Latin.
It was also CJ's first name on The West Wing.
Nikki: The other brother (who remains UNNAMED ... ) was hairy, compared to Jacob. At that moment I was convinced they were going to say his name was Esau.
Still gonna call him that...
Nikki: “You are special.” So the Bruthah in Black is referred to the same way as John Locke and Walt.
Don't forget your beloved Desmond!
Nikki: Island Mama says, “They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, and it always ends the same,” which is what the Man in Black said in “The Incident” when sitting on the beach with Jacob. Interesting that he would quote the woman who destroyed his life, in a sense.
But he didn't disagree with her assessment of them when he spoke to Jacob after living among them. They were, I think he said exactly, a means to an end.
Nikki: What a strange island that the smokey essence of Brother now looks like Locke, the one person who did not want to leave the island.
Is the "island"... "irony"? 8^)
Nikki: I think I’m kind of in love with Titus Welliver.
You ladies just cannot pick a dude. Desmond, Sayid, Esau... We have no shortage of hot chicks, including Ilana, Ana Lucia, Shannon, Libby, and of course Kate, but I don't up and declare each of them "palatable" as soon as they smile coquettishly or torture somebody. No, I don't. After whom have I declared to lust? Claire. That's all; just Claire. Um, regular and goth, please... in, uh, Miss Misery's costume, maybe...
Nikki: How did the boys possibly not notice another tribe on the island for 13 years? Not sure I buy that one.
Maybe the Island didn't want them to find out yet?
VW: ovenba — Joan cooking sheep.
Found it Benny, if you're still there. And I am trying to post it although I'm half asleep. Give me one or two more minutes, and then I'm off to bed! It's coming!
Okay, ready or not, here it comes. To clarify one point, I need to say that the beginning quote, which happens to be yours, Benny, I have absolutely no clue where that came from, or where you said that. But as Spouse and I made what follows, we kept referring back to what you had said, so I left it there. It's a simplifier.
Also, this was made the week that "Candidates" were described to us, which would be the episode where Locke takes Sawyer down to the cave, right? (Was that The Substitute? I think time wise that sounds about right, because if that was indeed The Substitute, according to my DVR, that was February 16, 2010.) So we've had this for a long time. It was bigger than this to start with (maxed out at 17), but it was never actually BIG! Which is surprising since somebody on the Internet actually has a post called "The Top 100 Questions Lost Must Answer Before It's Over (or something like that), and whomever that person is? It isn't me. :)Yes, from week to week, we get frustrated with the questions. But in the end, when it's all over, and the only way I'm going to hear that beautiful music again is by watching a repeat, there's going to be a Loss with Lost. There simply is no two ways around it for any of us. It is coming! Very soon too!
So without further ado, here it is.
@Benny said: "That is also part of why some fans may be unhappy with the finale, a lot of unanswered questions, and an ending that is bittersweet, melancholic, unwanted. But it is the end the writers wrote."
IMHO this doesn't appears to be a lot to ask, and if you read it, I think it's just what we all want spelled out. I won't be unhappy if:
1. The ABC channel does NOT do a screen fade to black indicating the world just ended. When the darkness goes away, you're local news would come on.
2. Pam Ewing, or anybody else, does NOT step out of a shower or wake up, and tell us it was all a dream.
3. The story that Lost fans have loved since the beginning, and I have loved since I found it, is kept true at it's core without distortion and without seemingly being made to be appear "cheap". Stay true to Lost without using a snowglobe, please.
4. Love figures prominently.
5. Hope endures.
6. For someone worthy, "Tomorrow IS another day."
7. The biggest mysteries, and by that I mean the most glaringly obvious, have some kind of answer that makes sense to the story we know. (Example: What is the island? What is it's true purpose? What was I supposed to be gathering in from the show while the writer's were writing it for me? Did you want to teach me something or educate me? What? How can the island be under water as we were shown and the story continues on normally? In other words, what's the point?)
8. Widmore (and hopefully Paik) gets exactly what's coming to him, whatever that may be, as of May 23, 2010.
9. Enough is left unanswered to allow fans and writers (Nikki) to talk about Lost forever.
10. There is a little piece left over that allows for the possibility that one day, whenever that may be, the story could be picked back up again. (This could be something so miniscule that even the brightest, fiercest fan could miss it altogether.) As of now, they say they don't want to do this. But a day may come for someone who does. Leave a door open on the way out, please.
I've been thinking about this episode a lot, and I've got some interesting ideas about the significance of the magic light and the rules of this game Jacob and his brother are playing. I just posted it all at my blog: www.pop-culture-pundit.blogspot.com.
@Gracie:Do you then have an alternative theory on the origins of MIB/Smokey, or do you agree with Benny that there never was a Smokey until MIB rolled into that cave?
Yes, agree with Benny that until Jacob's brother floated into the cave, Smokie did not exist outside in the island world. The body of Jacob's brother provided Smokie with a form and personality he could use in the outside island world. Otherwise, Smokie was just the energy source in the cave (call it EM--it's just energy, but once a seed (body) is placed into the cave, then the energy forms around it and becomes Smokie; in a sense Smokie arose like when you try to make crystals in a mineral soaked solution--you need a "seed" to begin the process).
I ask because you seem to be turning away, per se, from a ton of evidence as if you having a guiding light pointing you somewhere else.
I know this is just speculation, but since we won't get all the information from the writers, we have to infer some things to make sense of the background story. There is a children's story called Black and White by David Macaulay, where in four different stories each story requires information from the three other stories to be understood. However, each story has gaps in information for that story, and planted information in the other stories to fill the gaps in the story. But for the reader to fill the gaps in a story using information from the other stories results in illogical and impossible conclusions linking the four stories. The end result for the reader is a new series of unanswerable questions and further gaps in the stories that cannot be filled. Now I'm not saying the writers of LOST created their show along Macaulay's narrative approach, but they have left a lot of gaps in the telling of LOST which we as the audience have to fill, and, for which, how we fill those gaps in the show may appear logical to each one of us, but in fact prove completely different and incompatible.
So no, I don't have a guiding light, but I do infer in a different way than yourself. And if LOST is somewhat like Macaulay's Black and White then there is no unique or true solution to resolving all the ambiguities and plot lines. (But that's just my speculation).
I definitely think something was snarky with Mom, and you just gave me a whole new way to look at it, since I did not consider that she set up her own murder.
Well, here's hoping there is more than one way of looking at Mother.
Then I dunno either why she would thank him, but she obviously got something more than we know from it.
Yes, I agree with you. That is one of the gaps in our knowledge we have to fill, and the writers really didn't give us any information to fill it. So we have to speculate and see what answers may fit. We may come to more than one answer, which if they are contrary are still possible. What I love about LOST is that there is more than one way to see what is happening before us. We have to be very careful as viewers (or as John Locke said, we have to watch again) and not take what is given at face value.
Did you know about the knife and the stabbing done correctly? I did a search for the words on the page, and did not find anything as it related to either one.
No, that's just my assumption that MiB knew intuituively how to kill her. There really is nothing in the episode to tell us how she might be killed. But we were told earlier by Dogen how to kill Smokie. We have to speculate this knowledge came from somewhere, and as like as not it came from either MiB or Jacob. Doesn't seem logical MiB would tell Dogen, so it might have arisen in one of Richard and Jacob's conversations. Afterall, Widmore says he never met Smokie, but that Smokie was a myth, a ghost story told around the fire. And what better thing to tell around the fire than how to kill the monster. Who knows.
Ambivalentman: You still within sight of this screen?
@Gracie: I am now.
@Benny, We've been told that would be the case, that they would not answer every question the fans have (responding to @Anonymous: I'm beginning to seriously fear that there will be legions of questions not answered when Lost ends).
Benny: I am aware that we've been told Darlton won't answer every question the fans have. That's why I used the term "legions of questions." I certainly don't expect every question to be answered, but I do expect the big ones to be, and if they wasted an hour last night answering roughly 3 questions and missing some glaring opportunities to address others, and there's only 3.5 hours left, then I am thinking that is a bad precedent that legions of questions won't be answered when the series ends. Like I said, the contest between Jacob and his twin is a good example. We saw them playing the game with each other, but it has obviously expanded out over the centuries to a much deeper significance. What are the rules of that game as it applies to everyone who has inhabitated the island? Why are they writing names on walls and lighthouses? Why are Ben and Widmore apparently bound by the same rules as the twins? Those questions would have been fairly easy to address within the context of last night's show.
@Annonymous:What are the rules of that game as it applies to everyone who has inhabitated the island? Why are Ben and Widmore apparently bound by the same rules as the twins?
What weight do rules of a game have? Depends. If you don't care for the game, then nothing. If you are intent on playing the game, then everything. In other words, you have to believe in the rules of the game for them to have any effect.
Jacob has created a game and he has set the rules. Jacob believes in the rules, and it is his belief in those rules that give them any weight. In this case, I think the island backs up Jacob's beliefs. We see a rule, you can't kill someone on your own side. And the island backs it up by jamming guns etc. Another rule, you can't commit suicide if you are a candidate. The island backs that up. But why does the island back the rules? Beacuse Jacob believes in the rules. It's a vicious circle--Jacob creates the rules and believes in them so much, everyone has to follow them as the island supports Jacob's belief by making the rules a reality.
The rules do not apply to Desmond. Desmond was so dosed with the power fo the island, he is essentially the island in living form. Desmond is free to act as he sees fit, and thus becomes a very valuable pawn in the game.
So what happens to the rules when the inventor of the game dies? As long as the players abide by the rules, then the rules are in effect. The rules still have force, because all the players in the game still believe in them.
As I said, Jacob makes the rules of the game. But as we've seen many of the basic rules originated with Jacob's Mother. Essentially, Jacob bought into her point of view of things, and so he repeats them in the game. The idea of "good" is something originating with Mother, but Jacob never had a complete idea of what she meant, so it is left ambiguous in the game. But ambiguous or not, it is part of the rules of the game--one of the goals of the game is to find a "good" person. Likewise, the idea Mother told Jacob there is no world but the island. That becomes Desmond's "bloody snow globe".
One last thing, is it me or does Jacob seem very child-like. he's essentially grown up without any real contact with the outside world. It's not just that he's somewhat naive (afterall, Richard is needed to tell Jacob of a major flaw in his treatment of those who come to the island), but his appearance of wisdom seems more that of child-like simplicity in seeing the world. Am I alone in this?
Had a funny Lost moment at BJ's Wholesale Club the other day, kind of like Nikki's church moment, but not nearly as deep! Wandering through the aisles I heard KD Lang's song Constant Craving. Made me think of Lost's constants. Then the verse (and chorus) that says:
Maybe a great magnet pulls
All souls toward truth
Or maybe it is life itself
That feeds wisdom
To its youth
Constant Craving
Has always been
After that I started to think about the candidates, their constants and what "truth" they are running from, hiding from or finally acknowledging. And after this week, could truth be the light? Or wisdom? Every man has a little bit of it?
Funny how at anytime something grabs you and lead you back to analyzing Lost. What will we do after next week!! :(
Lisa (ufn) said -- she played the boys against eachother from the beginning
I didn't get the feeling that the mother played the two against each other. I felt she more or less might have favored BiB because she thought he was supposed to be the one to protect the island but I didn't see anything that made me think she was intentionally trying to cause the boys to be at odds. In fact I thought she truly wanted them to always be close. Did anyone else get that feeling? Maybe I need to rewatch for that dynamic.
Lisa (ufn) also said -- Smokey is the devil, and Jacob sent his brother right to him. The bits and pieces that are still Jacob's brother are still in there somewhere and he blames Jacob. They are playing a game...but when it ends, IT WILL END.
You just opened my mind to a new possibility! I felt before that Smokey was the soul of MiB that could inhabit dead people's bodies and still try and achieve his dream of getting off the island. But your whole devil with parts of MiB (is that like friends with benefits?)theory just got me thinking on a different path. The Devil was just waiting to be released and now has a way.
That's exactly what I love about this forum. Sharing ideas and creating new ones!
ps -- not that I didn't listen when others were saying similar things! I think it was a culmination of listening to this idea and considering it. And there was something in particular about the way Lisa said it that gave me the lightbulb moment.
I wanted to make sure I gave you all credit because this is a collaborative effort!
Benny said -- "My polar bear's breath smells like Mr Eko"
Hahahaha! Love it!
"This is Wiggum reporting a 318 - waking a police officer."
I don't really think people didn't like the episode because it didn't give enough answers, or because it gave too many answers.
I think it's because most viewers don't give a s*** about Jacob and MIB. Sure, as supporting characters or a force behind the mythology, but not usurping the characters we do care about for a whole episode so close to the end.
Or as Jimmy Kimmel said, it's like giving the third last episode of Seinfeld to the Soup Nazi.
BTW, while I have reasons for believing what I did about who Smokey is, Muppet Pierre Chang says that MIB was transformed into him. I love Muppet Pierre Chang. I hope he does end up with Kate.
frecklesnpt said...
I believe Mother gave him a name, but the writers just don't want us to know his name.
Mother only gave him a name if the writers did! ;)
My personal opinion is that NotMother did not give him a name because RealMother didn't and I don't think she had the ability or inclination to name him. NotMother's only real concern was that she have successors to the protectorship.
@Anonymous: It is possible some fans are not taking in the information the same way I am. To me, I got about a dozen answers this week. I guess the difference is how one watched the show, how they take in the information and how they piece it together.
@Fred: You're not alone, that's definitely an impression I got.
@redeem: "100% Grade A Jungle Juice"
Yeah the more I think about the episode, it is saying to me Smokey existed before MiB.
MiB simply isn't evil enough as depicted in this episode.
The electromagnetism (imo ="The Light")created Smokey, and it just used MiB's body and experiences for its purposes. Throwing MiB into the Light might have allowed it to escape, but that's it.
If I think of it that way I much prefer the episode than if MiB=Smokey.
Plus each human body has an electromagnetic field so that would tally with "The Light" explanation in the episode, i.e. why it would be catastrophic if it was released (see Swan Hatch explosion as evidence, and also, the Jughead incident, since that created the separate timeline).
When syncretism and amalgamation confound, focus on the visual attributes. This was solid advice from the best professor I ever had, Lucy Berkowitz, to whom we are all indebted for the canonization of ancient greek text. I individually owe her a debt for fostering the cohabitation of humanities and science within my growing mind through tutored readings of Hippocrates and Guido Majno's The Healing Hand.
Back to attributes, though. I suspect that the disappearing Sea turtle, the weaving looms with loose and meandering warp and weft, and FauxMother's hair net were all intended to connote that our midwife is the threshold-guarding "Spider Woman" and that our twins should therefore be reevaluated as the Navajo Twin Heroes: "Monster-Killer" and "Born-of-Water." We were prepped for such thinking by Castaneda's entheogenically driven spiritual walkabout A Separate Reality.
I'll save the defense for my Master's thesis in Lost Studies.
BTW: The Twins are still Esau & Jacob, Romulus & Remus, Castor & Pollux, and the Vedas Twins of single name fame. In Lost style, it's a noncommittal buffet.
Interesting interview with Damon and Carleton from yesterday.
Contains what some people may consider spoilers, other may consider confirmation.
@Benny: it was an interesting interview. At the risk of spoiling anything, I'll just vaguely say that I'm glad the thing they said will get touched on again will get touched on again, just for clarity's sake, and that the thing that really frustrated me in the interview is that they:
A. Admitted a specific mystery won't be addressed because they couldn't find a way to work the answer into the narrative.
B. Admitted they knew the answer to that mystery, even though it won't show up in an episode.
C. Didn't tell us in the interview what the answer was.
I'm fine with (A) (well, kinda; I still think, as storytellers, you shouldn't introduce a mystery without knowing both the answer and how you're going to present that answer, but I'm coming to peace with the fact that Darlton apparently doesn't adhere to my beliefs regarding storytelling).
But given A and B, C really frustrates me.
Just tell us the answer then, if you know it AND know the show won't be covering it!
I know, I know, the show speaks for itself. But if you have information that won't make it into the show, I want to know it!
@Teebore: I too read that interview and was aghast that they are not going to give us THAT answer. Especially since they claim that they have an answer for it. I am also glad that they will be revisiting the part that they said will get revisited. There...no spoilers.
@Kiki: The more I think about it, notMother did not really play the boys against eachother. I think my feelings came more from her apparent focus on BIB as her successor. And Jacob was so needy, and I was never quite sure she gave him what he was seeking/needing.
@Sagacious Penguin: LOVED your post. I do go to your site and read it, but it was nice to get it here. Thank you for the way you put your thoughts together.
@Teebore I definitely understand the frustration, especially when they DO have the answer. In the case that they don't come up with a definite answer, I think it's fair game.
As they've iterated a few times, it's their show and their story. And that's how I'm seeing it.
My favourite part(s) of this interview is when they discuss the ending of The Sopranos and saying how they loved it. This might be indicative of the impact the ending to Lost will have on fans.
As well, the idea that some fans are calling them as having jumped the shark, 4 hours before the end... that's kind of funny! We've done 118 hours out of 121.5 and apparently the writers jumped the shark?
Fred said -- I think MiB died before he went into the light.
I felt he was just knocked out. I see both sides of this argument but my first reaction was that it was MiB -- even knowing this is Lost, it seems like too me that Smokey/Flocke has the same motivations. Plus Jacob seems to act as if it is his nemesis. I was swayed a bit by Lisa (ufn) when she proposed a sort of hybrid Devil-with-parts-of-MiB mix. What made that theory appealing to me is that it really sets more of a Good vs Evil tone to the "brothers" current conflict. In Across the Sea, the two boys seem to care about each other - ok, ok except for the killing part. But up until THEN the brothers actually seemed to like each other well enough to get together to play their game.
I also think it is way too late in the show to set up new elaborate mysteries.
Fred said -- The final goodbye of Jacob for his brother, when he lays the bodies out in the cave, seemed to indicate Jacob regarded his brother as gone. And that the Smoke monster is something else despite its appearance of his brother.
Maybe at that time Smokey had not yet fully presented himself to Jacob so he could not yet make a connection that he is actually his brother's spirit/soul in this new form.
By the way, I think I could comment on EVERYTHING you all say. I am trying to edit, but boy is it hard -- as noted by my plethora of posts today. And I am only up to around 2pm yesterday!! I am going to have to pretend to work sometime today!
@Benny As they've iterated a few times, it's their show and their story. And that's how I'm seeing it.
I know. And I agree. I'm coming around to that line of thinking (I have to, to stay sane).
But at the same time, while it is their story, shouldn't they want it to be the best it can be? And I don't mean "the best" in terms "how I pictured it in my head", I mean "best" in terms of basic storytelling principles.
I mean, the books I've written and am trying to get published are my stories, but I still want them to be the best they can be so whomever reads them, enjoys them. That's the point, after all, of sharing stories.
This whole "we introduced a mystery, we know the answer, but we never came up with a way to work that answer into the story" thing strikes me as a violation of the Chekov principle: if you introduce a gun in act one, it had better go off in act three (I'm paraphrasing a bit, obviously).
You can't introduce a gun and say "eh, we'll figure out who shoots it later" and then get to act three and say "oh yeah, we still need to shoot that gun. Ah, well, the story really isn't in a place that calls for gun shooting, so let's just forget it."
No, that gun shouldn't get introduced in the first place unless the writer knows exactly when and how it's going to get shot.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just being a negative nelly, a whiny fanboy. And don't get me wrong; these are minor concerns for me. It's not like I suddenly think the show jumped the shark (that one cracks me up) or that Darlton are suddenly hacks.
I just feel like we've had a good ongoing discussion here not just about plot points, but the nature of narrative and story in general, and the relationship between audience and author, and this latest interview just brought that discussion back to the forefront for me.
Mother says of the other people from the wider world: "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt."
When you think of it, what have Jacob and MiB done. They came to the island, as unborn children, granted. They fought, or at least we see on two occassions Jacob beat his brother to submission. They destroy, or at least Mother destroys the camp, then MiB destroys her home. Has jacob corrupted Mother's philosophy? Or has MiB by just using people as means to his own end not corrupted them?
MiB and Jacob sure aren't innocent of the guilt that inhabits other humans' actions. I still say, Jacob's Game is Jacob trying to clean up his own mess--get Smokie back into the cave.
@Teebiore:This whole "we introduced a mystery, we know the answer, but we never came up with a way to work that answer into the story" thing strikes me as a violation of the Chekov principle: if you introduce a gun in act one, it had better go off in act three (I'm paraphrasing a bit, obviously).
I've felt this rush of 18 episodes to conclude the final season was a mistake. If they had expanded it to 23 or 24, they would have the luxury to manage to get to everything, guns over the fireplace mantel, and questions about infertility, ad Ben's Annie. But sometimes it feels like their trying to check things off a list--whispers, oh yeah, dead people talking.
The great joy of LOST is not merely the tension and fast paced action, but also the richness of the story. Let's take the time to tell us more. My biggest complaint while watching this episode is looking at the clock in the VCR and saying, "Crap, it's already 46 minutes over?" I could just do with a lot more story to immerse myself in--and if we had that luxury, the writers would probably have the luxury of dealing with unshot shotguns in a satisfying manner.
Good point, Fred.
I will also add, to my previous statement, that I'm well aware there are mysteries which we, the audience, turned into mysteries when they were never intended to be so (the mention of Ben's Annie reminded me of this, as Darlton have said she was merely intended to help humanize Ben, and then an intelligent fanbase trained to dig and explore and theorize over the show built her up into a mystery; the identity of the Lamp Post builder being another example, where we take artfully-written line of dialogue and assume there's a mystery there).
Now, we could certain get into a whole 'nother discussion about whether or not, if the story the writers' are telling trains an audience to react one way, should the writers then alter their story to accommodate the changes in audience perception brought about by the story, but I'm willing to concede the point that this is THEIR story to tell, and they aren't beholden to changing it for the sake of the audience.
So while they are not beholden to answering mysteries we the audience created, I do believe they are beholden, for the sake of narrative integrity, to answer the mysteries they actually do intentionally introduce.
Having had a chance to review the episode, post-commentary, I have to say that I thought it played a bit better than on my first viewing. Ultimately, I think the episode will stand up well in the series.
A couple of Things That Jumped Out At Me on 2nd glance:
1) As Mother takes baby Jacob, swaddles him and sets him aside, she repeats the words, "it's a boy" to herself, clearly happy/relieved - perhaps that her intuition/plan is unfolding. By comparison, when Claudia cries out in pain before having her second baby, Mother looks genuinely perplexed/surprised/unnerved.
2) When Mother tells Brother on the beach that he's "special", Brother is clearly pleased to hear this from her. I immediately thought of a bitter Smokey deriding Locke as a "sucker" who had been taken in by the belief that he was special. Project much?
3) After his ambivalence and uncertainty about accepting responsibility for the Island, Jacob drinks the wine - and a look of insight and understanding crosses his features. I'm not sure if this signified anything in particular but it was noticeable to me upon review.
4) I have to admit that I missed the whole "Mother as Smokey" possibility on first viewing. After rewatching the episode, I have to say that I'm on board with Mother having specific knowledge of the effects of going down into the cave from personal experience, her wiping out The People in Smokish Vengeance and then accepting her death at Brother's hands - just as Jacob accepted his at Ben's. Part of the cycle, perhaps - as I believe Fred alluded to in his comments on enduring mythos of the Warrior King.
5) Curious to me that as he kneels next to their bodies, Jacob says, "Goodbye Brother ... goodbye" and doesn't say anything to Mother that we see.
@humanebean: I have to say that I thought it played a bit better than on my first viewing.
Agreed, I liked it more/felt more comfortable with it the second time around.
I immediately thought of a bitter Smokey deriding Locke as a "sucker" who had been taken in by the belief that he was special. Project much?
I like it! One of the things I liked in the episode were some of the parallels between a pre-Smokey MiB and Locke, the man he's now wearing the form of, such as their shared fondness for games.
Your observation that Smokey is likely projecting some of his own issues regarding the term "special" onto Locke is another connection.
@humanbean:2) When Mother tells Brother on the beach that he's "special", Brother is clearly pleased to hear this from her. I immediately thought of a bitter Smokey deriding Locke as a "sucker" who had been taken in by the belief that he was special. Project much?
That seems so right.
When we saw the little boy with the bloody arms, we now know this was Jacob after he beat his brother when he threatened to leave Mother. But I've begun to wonder about some of these ghostly appearances. Child Jacob, Claudia and Isabella appear in golden light, and I am wondering if these are not just projections of the magic-source under the island. Somehow we've forgotten the island itself is a player in the whole game. It is as much manipulating and moving people around with these ghostly visitations. We bought into Michael's answer that the whispers were just ghosts who couldn't get away. But that seemed to pat an answer.
So my point is that not only might Locke have been a sucker, but, so too, Jacob. Jacob as a sucker. That would put a wrench in our image of him.
Going back to rules. Jacob says there are rules that can't be broken. Yet, in the Swan Hatch, Michael breaks the rules using the computer for communication. In the Flame Station, Mikhail tells Locke the computer chess game wins because it cheats. These might be hints that the rules are not held to so hard and fast by some players, and the possibility that someone is cheating. If we buy that the island (light-source) is sentient and a player in the game, perhaps the island is cheating. But then to what purpose, as this would only open up more questions?
Looads of great theories and discussion as usual.
Here's my take on the Mother's backstory.
I believe she was the first person ever to come to The Island, possibly thousands of years before. Maybe the Eve tag is not just throwaway.
Whilse wandering in the forest she comes across the cave and enters it. There she encounters the heart of The Island, the soul of man, of everything.
The source grants her eternal life and vast knowledge but she can never leave The Island and cannot die by her own hand or by any other until a replacement is found.
When a young pregnant woman is shipwreck at first I think she just wants to help. Once Jacob and the baby are born she she her chance. To play one off against the other in order to provoke her death and free her from her eternal prison.
LOST geek alert: Jears (or Lears for me) watching video of Michael Giacchino orchestra rehearsals for tonight's LOST live event (posted on Docarzt.com)
I'm been cleaning house on my computer today, and reading different things about Lost at different places here and there. (There were some questions to me from last weeks posts on Nik that I'm trying to find to get caught up. I haven't forgotten, just trying to find those. Not to mention left over questions from this week.)I wondered if anyone would be interested in this?
I don't know if anyone on here is familiar with Rich Heldenfels? He's a local Ohio writer and writes for TV and other forms of entertainment for our local newspaper. This link is his latest post on Tuesday's episode of Lost. I agree with everything he says, which is unusual for me. Sorry I do not know how to make a hot link. If you're interested, he's written a lot about Lost. You can find his thoughts by going to Ohio.com and searching for "Lost".
"To offer enough enlightment to be emotional acceptable." PERFECT!
http://www.ohiomm.com/blogs/heldenfiles/2010/05/lost-now-youre-just-messing-with-us/
Anybody else around here from Ohio?
Just found this, and the interview is gonna be local? THAT is just strange. This is about fifteen minutes from my front door.
Times Talks Live: Lost
Thursday, May 20 8:00p
at Regal Montrose Stadium 12, Akron, OH
Editor Lorne Manly of the New York Times interviews Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof about ``Lost'' and the hit show's series finale.
Age Suitability: None Specified
Tags: There are no tags.
Editor Lorne Manly of the New York Times interviews Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof about ``Lost'' and the hit show's series finale.
Gracie: Just found this, and the interview is gonna be local?
I think this event is the live interview that will run in select movie theaters across North America.
VW: haute — How some like their cuisine.
On a break from watching the versatile Mark Pellegrino as Lucifer in the season finale of the most enjoyable show on TV (as recently discussed on my blog)...
Nikki: Will it be explained, or will it be like the glow in the briefcase that Vincent Vega opens in Pulp Fiction?
To me it's already been more explained than that, but it's probably not going to get explained further — in terms of its ultimate source and essential properties, anyway; we might get some lip service in the direction of how it engenders time travel and such.
Kotowski: Locke told Walt that backgammon was the oldest game, many years before Jesus Christ.
That line always struck me as weird — "older than Jesus Christ". I mean, no offense to Christian believers, because the religiosity of it is irrelevant, but it's not like there wasn't plenty of civilization before Jesus came along. He (as a person or concept) is not that old compared to the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenicians...
Kotowski: After losing his physical body, MIB had to wait until (presumably) other people arrived on the Island and died.
He was able to take the form of his old body.
Marebabe: How bad did you jump when Mom got stabbed?
I was expecting it, to be honest. But the very noisy "splortch" was disconcerting.
Gracie: Who was she? WHAT was she? Where did she come from? ...
I'm flashing back to Admiral Stockdale: "Who am I? Why am I here?" 8^)
These are all good questions. I don't think we'll get the answers. Nor, frankly, are they as high on my list as others; to me her origins fall into the category of things I am all right with being left unsaid. I assume that her story, and her mother's story, and her mother's (or father's) story, is very much like Jacob's, with at some point of course there being an Original Protector (maybe Momma herself), something I'm curious about but not knowledge I feel is integral to the story.
Gracie: There has to be a beginning, doesn't there? Every story/tale has a beginning.
And every story/tale could go farther back than that beginning, but something has to be designated as the beginning by the storyteller. For the purposes of Lost, I think the birth of Jacob is as far as we'll go and far enough. Not that other aspects of this episode weren't frustrating to me, so I feel your pain.
Jessica: Oh My Friggin Guyliner!
I caught Evangeline Lilly on Jimmy Fallon (which I pretty much never watch) Tuesday night, and she was on during rapid-fire questions about Lost Fallon shot at her. Among her answers was, to the question of whether Richard's eyes were natural or guyliner, "Natural. They have to use concealer." Zing!
Benny [to Joan]: Wow! Didn't know you were on an abbreviated-name basis with Jacob.
Oh, yeah. Just wait 'til she starts with the nicknames — T-Bone Jake, Jake Tartar, Point Jake, It Jakes One to Know One, Angel Food Jake ...
@Blam: I'm flashing back to Admiral Stockdale: "Who am I? Why am I here?" 8^)
Bahahahahaha!!
Supernatural finale rocked!
A couple of random thoughts and more comments on comments (way behind):
Momma said that she made it so the boys couldn't kill each other. But after she chose one to be the Island protector, would she have let the chosen one have the companionship that she may never have had or killed the other herself? I mean, she did remind me of Joan.
So after the only answer they got to "What is dying?" was "Something you will never have to worry about," it's strange that Jacob wasn't, all, "Momma! Wake up, Momma! You never told me how to make babies, Momma! Momma?... Brother, helps me wake up Momma! How you make Momma go so hard asleep, Brother? We gots to wake up Momma!"
Joan: As an aside, didn't they all look so young in the flashback to the cave?
Uh-huh. Terry O'Quinn especially, which was weird.
Lesley C: How did Crazy Momma haul knocked unconscious Brother out of the well, fill in the hole, and slaughter a whole village of people before burning it to the ground - by herself? I just *knew* she would be an early version of the smoke monster, capable of doing all those things in the blink of an eye. And yet, she just looked older and tireder in the next scenes.
'Cause she had just hauled knocked-unconscious Brother out of the well, filled in the hole, and slaughtered a whole village of people before burning it to the ground - by herself! You'd look older and tireder too. 8^)
Lesley C: Did this bug anyone else?
Totally. Maybe she could've taken out the village with pent-up righteous anger plus stealth and martial arts honed over an immortal lifetime — Jacob had mad skills when fighting Richard — but filling in the well while Black Sheep was sleeping off the head-crack (which I at first thought had killed him; I expected him to wake up with that same gasp of air that Sayid did in the Temple) was right out.
Also, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who went for "Cave o' Light".
redeem147: I don't think the smoke monster was created when Jacob killed his brother. I think The Man With No Name (who I will now call 'Clint') died and the smoke monster took his identity, the way he has now taken Locke's.
I think it's possible that Smokey predated Esau as an entity within the light, but that it fully absorbed Esau's memories, consciousness, and attitude, and probably doesn't think of itself as anything other than Esau (or Clint).
Teebore: So does the Dogen Dagger work because it killed Mother? And because she was killed without a word, that's why you can't speak before stabbing Jacob/MiB?
A bunch of great insights and summary of revelations, as usual, but this especially! I see that we both noticed that "for all these many, many years, MiB has been yearning to go home to a place he's never been". Of course the lure of anywhere else is powerful, especially if one understands one has family or otherwise "belongs" there somehow, but clearly part of Esau's desire is just wanderlust and contrariness, which could admittedly be charitably called thrill-seeking or adventurousness.
Blam said: Gracie: Just found this, and the interview is gonna be local?
I think this event is the live interview that will run in select movie theaters across North America.
Blam: I knew about the live interview, of course, but somehow it never crossed my mind (or if anyone mentioned it to me, I missed it), that they would "air" the interview in theaters. Just didn't make the connection. And, frankly, I probably didn't pay any attention thinking it wasn't going to happen anywhere in my neck of the woods anyway. But thank you for pointing that out.
Next two posts are put together:
Blam again: "Gracie: Who was she? WHAT was she? Where did she come from? ...There has to be a beginning, doesn't there? Every story/tale has a beginning."
I'm flashing back to Admiral Stockdale: "Who am I? Why am I here?" 8^)
These are all good questions. I don't think we'll get the answers. Nor, frankly, are they as high on my list as others; to me her origins fall into the category of things I am all right with being left unsaid. I assume that her story, and her mother's story, and her mother's (or father's) story, is very much like Jacob's, with at some point of course there being an Original Protector (maybe Momma herself), something I'm curious about but not knowledge I feel is integral to the story. And every story/tale could go farther back than that beginning, but something has to be designated as the beginning by the storyteller. For the purposes of Lost, I think the birth of Jacob is as far as we'll go and far enough. Not that other aspects of this episode weren't frustrating to me, so I feel your pain."
I haven't done much reading of the blog today because I've been a bunch of other places (including your blog), but I hope there is a post of mine from somewhere last night where I started to see the light of day. I know I was very tired, but I think it's posted. Who she is and where she came from is now to me a showing of the changing of the guard. But there is a part of me pulling for an answer to the question of how the source, which I guess they want me to know is all-fired important, ended up on island where it has to be protected. Sort of like the "what started all of this?" question. The beginning to me now, is the beginning of whatever is inside that cave which some are calling "the source". That's the reason for what we've seen that followed. So, I almost need to know what it is that I'm calling "hope", and how it got or why it's kept there. This I've gotten into trouble in high school with teachers over because I always "look for the six" in any given story, and I expect them to be there. "What" happened? "Why" did it happen? To "Whom" did it happen? "Where" did it happen? "When" did it happen? And my Child's personal favorite: "Just exactly HOW did this happen?" I think I had a teacher in elementary school that told me it is these six things that must be included in every story, and it's important to look for them and know what they are when you see them, or something equally obnoxious. (Today I agree, but it would've been grand to allow me as a person to learn to get what I personally wanted from each story.)
Blam: Nikki: Will it be explained, or will it be like the glow in the briefcase that Vincent Vega opens in Pulp Fiction?
To me it's already been more explained than that, but it's probably not going to get explained further — in terms of its ultimate source and essential properties, anyway; we might get some lip service in the direction of how it engenders time travel and such.
If I understand this, we're talking about the glow, the source, and what's being protected on the island, right? To me that is the (or recently became) the ultimate question. We've watched people live and die (and in Jacks' case, damn near lose his mind) for six seasons because of some thing. For what? It now becomes the entire essence of this quote: "They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt, and it always ends the same."
So, all of the fighting we have seen since day one leads to this. I think we deserve to know what it is. If they want to say it's a really cool black light from the seventies, they can do that. Ditto if it's an abnormally bright night light or an ancient candle. I don't think that's gonna happen, but they are the writers. I DO think it has to be addressed in some fashion. It's the reason.
Gracie: [W]hy couldn't MIB have killed any one of them, taken over that body, and jumped on the sub as the person he killed?
He may not be able to take over the form of someone he's killed himself — and in fact for a long time the prevailing theory was, I think, that he could only appear as someone who died off the Island and was brought to it (although I haven't wracked my brain for confirmation on how that's held up, leaving aside his taking his own old physical form laid to rest in the cave). He also needed to be in a form that could convince someone else to kill Jacob for him, which is a tricky proposition when you can only appear as a dead person and you specifically need to persuade a person who already knows how to get to Jacob; in this case, he needed to be Locke to get Richard to take him to Jacob and manipulate Ben into going "absolutely stabulous".
Ambivalentman: No doubt this episode has suffered from the disease of high expectations.
From some, in part, you're probably right. To me the disappointment was due less to preconceptions — I had few — and more, as I said earlier (go fish), to what I felt the episode was promising as it unfolded but didn't deliver.
I think the problem with this episode was that it was both great and bad — or... lacking, not so much in answers per se as in follow-through on what it showed us as well as in quality; the kids couldn't pull off the casual yet stilted dialogue like Janney mostly did, and some of the sets looked chintzy.
Ambivalentman: I loved it because this is the stuff of classic mythology. Classic myths are messy and frustrating, full of obvious symbolism. LOST has succeeded over the years because of its willingness to complicate its story, and now it succeeds by breaking the story down and simplifying it (without losing the ambiguity).
This and what followed was really well said. I didn't have a problem with the episode being what you describe it to be so much as with the execution. Even its placement so close to the end could have been or may be appropriate, but the fact that it started out overwhelming me and ended up underwhelming me a bit does make me fear for that meager 3.5 hours (minus commercials, yet) of story time.
Fred: It seems not being able to lie is not a recomendation for protecting the island.
Well, Momma sure knew how to lie.
Kevin K.: [A]nd how did we go through an entire hour of this show without anyone ever saying BROTHER'S name, even though we heard JACOB about a million times?
I don't think he has one.
Gracie: I think the island light in all it's brightness, and for everything it offers mankind is simply "hope".
Hope was, of course, the last thing left in Pandora's box when all else flew out into the world. Maybe the Island is analogous to (or even the "real-life" basis of) that myth, with Hope being guarded, or hoarded, or possibly even from Jacob's perspective kept prisoner. I've tended to see Jacob as the "good guy" of the pair, and Momma speak of the light as something not to be despoiled, but maybe the actions of his mother and brother so affected Jacob that he now sees Hope as the very evil he described to Richard. Hope as the golden light, and the guardianship of it, is what led to the rift in his family and thus to his solitude; hope in the generic, emotional sense is something he's felt and yet also in a way been denied since he was left alone, with only a facsimile or transformed version of his brother for company, and so also something to be hated until the actions of worthy people brought to the Island can give him reason to hope, in a good way, again.
VW: troutic — Of or relating to certain species of fresh- and saltwater fish.
@Gracie/Blam: To me that is the (or recently became) the ultimate question.
See, I think there is a discourse right here. To me (and I think Blam), that was a big answer; to you (Gracie) it has become a new question.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they told me more on it, but I've gotten the level of information I needed.
@Blam: the prevailing theory was, I think, that he could only appear as someone who died off the Island
He has appeared as Alex, and I believe that is the only form of someone who's died ON the island. But one could think it's a non-corporeal apparition, just as Isabella was.
@Blam: manipulate Ben into going "absolutely stabulous".
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Oh, my gravy, that is fantastic. Thank you, sir!
@All-Night Blam Session - You never told me how to make babies
Yeah, really! Jacob is a 2,000 year old virgin. You know he never hooked up while I can assure you MiB was getting tail left and right in the village.
Also, "What's death?" What? So, what is it you ate for the whole first part of your life? Mom never brought home animals to eat?
"Oh, no he isn't dead, Sweet Boys. He is sleeping and now I will cook him alive!"
You never squished a bug or happened upon a dead animal in the Magic Jungle? Caught a fish?
Oh, yeah. Just wait 'til she starts with the nicknames
Ew, no! I don't even like Jacob let alone want to delight myself by giving him nicknames.
Fred: It seems not being able to lie is not a recomendation for protecting the island.
Blam: Well, Momma sure knew how to lie.
No one to my knowledge has done it as well as Ben! He passed Island 101 with all A+'s, and flew into Island Honors! Whew! Now he teaches the course.
Blam: I don't think Brother has a name either. If ever there was a time to use it, it would've been when laying him down beside Mom.
Also, your reasons for "hope" I knew of, but my reasons go more towards what the show said about "it".
The light at the end of the tunnel is often "hope". (I'm tired again tonight and going to bed soon I hope, but I tend to think of "hope" as golden. Is there a known reason for that?) And if you've ever lived without it for any length of time, you know there is nothing darker than seeing a world without "hope". I'm staying with my original idea of "hope". It's simple, sweet, and worth killing and dying and finding protection for.
I wonder if Jacob eventually put the Wheel in its proper place and turned it. This would explain how Jacob has left the Island to visit his candidates. As to why the Wheel's location becomes frozen...I have no clue.
Benny said: @Gracie/Blam: To me that is the (or recently became) the ultimate question.
See, I think there is a discourse right here. To me (and I think Blam), that was a big answer; to you (Gracie) it has become a new question.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they told me more on it, but I've gotten the level of information I needed.
To Benny and Blam (if applicable):
So you (Benny) are saying that for six seasons you followed a show on television that had a relatively simple story to it, except for the complications that became inherent because of this island, (!) and a certain weirdness that came with it, that was also part of the cast, and if you don't learn anything more about it from here on out, you'll be good to go with that?
I'm also at a point now where I can see that I've reached another level of knowledge, but this is it! It's now or never! Spouse says it's time to sh*t or get off the pot as far as story line goes. Fish or cut bait. And the whole weirdness thing, every time you said "Whoa!" or "Didn't see that coming!" you are okay if you don't learn anything more?
I'll be okay with it IF I have to be, meaning the show is over and they gave me nothing else, but I think that's a cheap shot. The whole story now focuses on what this "it" is. It is the reasoning for everything. My biggest example at this point is if Desmond dies.
So to point it simply, if Desmond dies, I want to know what he died "for". I may be able to even be happy (?) about such a horrible thing, if he died for an honorable cause.
Simple.
Black Snake Joan: Ew, no! I don't even like Jacob let alone want to delight myself by giving him nicknames.
Wait... You like me?
Kotowski said: "I wonder if Jacob eventually put the Wheel in its proper place and turned it. This would explain how Jacob has left the Island to visit his candidates. As to why the Wheel's location becomes frozen...I have no clue."
I thought of this also, and came to the conclusion that Jacob had to have done so for the reason you mentioned and because nobody else could possibly have ever known about it except him. But I don't know why it's frozen.
Simple questions: If Mom made it so the boys could never hurt each other, why was Jacob able to kill his brother? Or is everyone saying that MIB wasn't technically dead when he was rolling down stream into the cave? (He hadn't actually officially died yet.) THEN if MIB was unconcious when he rolled into the cave, how was Jacob able to do that when Mom said he couldn't?
I usually ask these simpler questions of a friend of mine on-line but my Inbox won't "In" right now, so you guys are stuck with me. And I'm grateful YOU don't feel that way.
EGADS!! I should have said that! My Inbox is temporarily on the fritz. Computer Guy knows whats wrong and hopefully will be over soon. If you sent me something, I have NOT received it yet.
@Gracie: Yes. That is what I am saying. Throughout 6 season, I've picked up bit here and there and I'm quite comfortable with my knowledge of what the island is. My theories on that have been significantly narrowed down and that's what I was looking for in that mystery.
The characters' journey is what is most important to me, and that does not include knowing EXACTLY what the island is, just knowing some things about it, which was resolved this week.
I think that's, in essence, what I've been talking about all season; that there is a discourse between not only the writers and fans, but between fans as well. One of the questions YOU personally had was "What is this island?", mine was "What kind of thing is this island?"
Similar but a significant difference.
I've always loved finding things out on my own, digging for it, learning how it works and piecing everything together. I think that's why I got locked into Lost, because of the lack of answers.
So while some may say it's a cop out to not give us answers directly, but I personally think it's a testament to the structure of the show and the risks the writers take (took), and I think that's what they meant when they said the finale may be unsatisfying or dividing for fans.
@Gracie: why was Jacob able to kill his brother?
Well, I think I've covered it earlier. My personal belief is: Brother/MiB is still not dead! Simple.
He has simply been transformed/transposed from one physical form to another, and is now tethered to the island through the power of protectorate Jacob has.
So, Jacob did not kill him, and going to the source gave him a fate worse than death.
That's my simple answer: he's not dead.
@Benny: I don't know if I should be jumping for joy for you or sobbing uncontrollably. I suppose as long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters.
Yes, there is a big difference between those two questions: Is it a game board? Is it the keeper of the keys? Does Santa Claus live in that cave? Earlier today I was somewhere where somebody said it was where Jesus lives. No, I'm not going to comment on that. Yes, I just did.
On the other hand, if they do not answer this question, and I know this Benny!!! If they do not answer this, (drum roll please), it leaves open the possibility that IT IS whatever you "HOPE" it will be. See? I'm a little confused at times, but not completely daft.
Finally, I've always loved finding things out on my own, digging for it, learning how it works and piecing everything together. I think that's why I got locked into Lost, because of the lack of answers.
Um......are we married? That just sounded so..... Spousal. As in my Spouse. He can't handle it if he doesn't know why/how everydamnthing works. Which is part of the reason I can get so anal with Lost. I live with him. I have my own need to know things, and he has his. Did you see our Top Ten list? He was worse than I was because he has to know the working part of it all. I will do better than he does if there aren't some answers.
And we agree! Many, many, many, many, etc. etc. fans are gonna be so unhappy!!!! I already see that coming. It wasn't as glaringly obvious to me as it appeared to be to others until this past episode. NOW I KNOW! (sigh) Here's a secret Benny: I don't want to be one of them!
You kidding me? I'm the President of BlamClub (and so far the only "outed" member but there are 10's of others here alone. 10's I tell you!).
What, I Bedazzled this denim jacket and made buttons for nothing?
@Benny: Yes, you did say that. That was last night. I think by that point I was beyond exhaustion, but yes, you did say that, and I think I agreed. Yes, I did because I liked my fate worse than death better than theirs.
At times Benny, and this has been an ongoing problem with life, not just here or TV, I can see the visual in my mind but I can't recall the oral. My mind computes something we saw on TV, but it easily forgets things we talked about. Does that make sense, I hope?
But you're right, and I don't think he's dead either.
Well, if the first rule of BlamClub is that you don't talk about BlamClub, ya broke it.
VW: tallysm — Severe neurological reaction to doing addition too quickly.
Blam said: VW: tallysm — Severe neurological reaction to doing addition too quickly.
HHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!
:) I like that one!!!
Batcabbage said... @Blam: manipulate Ben into going "absolutely stabulous".
I second the motion, Batcabbage: Blam, you have such a fabulous way with words.
Which reminds me – you’re way behind on your Blog-Word-Verf List. You haven’t added to it since April...@Blam: VW: spitiv — A saliva drip.
...and as for The Rule: What happens in Blam Club, stays in Blam Club.
Word Verf: pubstem : Wine glass in your Local.
WOW Benny, I started to comment on all of this HOURS ago! It was still here and waiting for me. (And it still was days later!) HAHAHA :)
Benny said: re deem147 But if I'm taking b... Witch's' words at face value, "You won't be dying, but something much worse". Constrained by the nature of the island.
If she has been successful at protecting the source, then this may very well be the first occurrence of someone coming in contact with it!.
I said: This is a very good point Benny. With no history on the island, we have no way to know if she'd felt threatened by anything previously.
Was that light the light that Locke said he saw when he was dragged underground?
Unfortunately, I do not remember this. In fact I don't remember him being dragged underground.
I said: I seem to remember Mr. Locke being pulled from below by a "force" that he wanted to go with. I believe Jack and Kate were pulling from above and wouldn't let him go. For some reason, accurately or not, it seems that Hurley was around there too.
@Dave: They never had the intention to answer the FANS' questions. They always wanted to answer THEIR OWN questions. Big difference.
I said: That's the problem with writer's these days. They never know how WE want the story to end! Luckily, Nikki is not guilty of this!
@Rainier: she tells the boys that she has "fixed it so they will never die."
And this might be why touching the source results in something worse than death for MiB.
I said: I'll bet my idea of worst than death is worse than her idea of worse than death. Still do today too!
Why did he have such a problem with MiB leaving? And what is it that makes MiB a bad guy?
It could stand that what MiB NOW IS (Smokey) is what should be prevented from leaving.
I said: I think Benny's answer was what actually happened, but in the beginning SHE didn't want him to go because he was her chosen Golden Boy. Jacob I think was more concerned with loneliness, missing his brother, and perhaps even jealousy to a point. Currently he's a bad guy because he has an odor problem. Prior to that, I think he was a bad guy who had issues with anger management and family acceptance. In any case, he is considered PART of the island.
@Gracie: Where are you? Is your e-mail back up yet? I've sent messages to both of your accounts, but have yet to receive a reply. Please get in touch & let me know what's going on...the messages are not bouncing back.
Rain
RAINIER!!!! I just sent you an e-mail like less that five minutes ago!!! WOW. Ears burning much?
Benny or Fred or Blam or Anyone:
I don't think I was here yet hanging around lurking if and when you guys first started talking about the FDW. Actually, I'm sure I wasn't. Some of you can go into the physics and the Science Fiction ideas that just go over the head and out the window, so I'm looking for a simple explanation. IF anyone has one.
Did anyone in here ever have a satisfactory answer for why turning the FDW picks somebody up from Island City and puts them down, none too gently either, in Tunisia? Or HOW that would work?
Or, on the other hand, did you guys pretty much decide that was something like "perception"? Which if that's the case, you've Lost me again, because Ben and Locke actually appeared to be in Tunisia to me!
Anyway, is somebody wants to let me know what you guys thought of that? Whenever.
300 comments??? Wow, I am s far behind I can't believe it. I probably have a thing or two to say, but first I must read.
@Gracie: I don't know that I ag4ree with the hope thing. I am still trying to sort out the ramifications of the light going out (or nearly out) when MiB got tossed down there & Smokey emerged. Is it possible that the totality of whatever the light is now resides in/is trapped within the Smoke Monster? It seems totally counter-intuitive, but where else could it have gone? There must be something left, as the world has gotten by this long...
Apologies if someone else has already addressed this. I'll get to it when I can (which ain't gonna be tonight!)
BTW, Gracie - I am basically OK, just busy; thanks for asking.
VW: ratte - a pate made from ratt. Yum!
Rainier! Long time, no yak!!
You said: @Gracie: I don't know that I ag4ree with the hope thing. I am still trying to sort out the ramifications of the light going out (or nearly out) when MiB got tossed down there & Smokey emerged.
I'm gonna get in trouble here, but somebody (Benny I'm pretty sure) had convinced me that the light was dimmed by the smoke rolling up over and out of the cave. So, I went back and looked at it again, and I'm gonna agree. I think you could take it either way, but on second watch it did sort of look like the light was still there, but was being darkened from the smoke rolling out of the cave. And since the light is so important, it has to be there, so it just appeared dimmed. Speaking of appearances, Fred, I think, has me all into "perceptions". What we see that isn't really there, or just how we look at things. Is that the way the writers want us to see that or is it just our personal perceptions? That will play some serious mind games with me. You'd know that better than anyone! LOL
Yes, it is quite possible that somebody else has also addressed this. I stayed up all night Tuesday just to stay caught up on the blog, and I'm further behind than I've ever been before. Tomorrow is the day for catching up, I hope. And I put the family on notice today: For two years the entire household has moved around how/if/for how long I'm sleeping. I told them today there are ten days left of Lost and a recap here that I AM going to read. I'll sleep when I sleep and I'll be awake when I'm not sleeping. In the meantime, no fretting. I want to enjoy this since I actually lived to see it. I'm holding out for "hope". (Obviously, I've also assumed I am going to live for the next ten days, which now makes me wonder. sigh.)
Going to bed Rainier!!
@Gracie:Did anyone in here ever have a satisfactory answer for why turning the FDW picks somebody up from Island City and puts them down, none too gently either, in Tunisia? Or HOW that would work?
The FDW is just one of those gizzmos in science fiction we accept as working, but don't know how. How can the Enterprise travel faster than the speed of light, and reach such a speed almost instantly? (As you pick up speed, the rate of time slows down in the ship, which is why at nearly the speed of light, a little boy running in the space ship will not pass the speed of light. Also time slows down as you orbit a black hole, which is why time is ever so slightly slower on the earth than on the satellites orbiting the earth--we are ever so slightly in a gravity well. The clocks in the satellites that are in geo-synchronous orbit have to be reset every so often as they are a fraction of a second fast.) So just take the FDW as a given to make the story work. It's what science fiction writers call a novum.
However, there is a literary connection that might explain in part the FDW. That connection is Alice in Wonderland. You see, Alice left England in May, when it was early Spring. As she falls into Wonderland she muses: "I wonder if I shall fall right through the earth! How funny it'll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downwards! The Antipathies, I think. . . I shall have to ask them what the name of the country is, you know. Please, Ma'am, is this New Zealand? Or Australia?"
Now there is a pun here: "Antipathies" should be "Antipodes". When Alice lands at the end of the tunnel, she lands on sticks and shavings ("shavings" is "dry leaves"). So when it is Spring in England, it is Fall in Australia; hence her landing on dry leaves. This seasonal reference to Fall also links as a pun with the verb "fall", which is what happened to Alice. The world is upside down (as it would be in the Antipodes), and mirrored, as in the palindrome, "Ma'am".
The same sort of play on puns is operating when someone turns the FDW on the island. They leave a lush, tropical and wet island in the ocean, to end in a dry and barren place in the desert (contrast of opposites). The cave where the FDW exists is frozen; while the exit point is hot (further opposite). Like Alice, the traveller must pass through the earth to a point opposite the island (the antipode). When Ben turns the wheel it is one time; when Ben exits, it is a later time (the difference in the Alice story is Spring and Fall). In fact, both Ben and Locke "fall" into the cave. To clinch the Alice reference, before Ben even goes into the frozen cave to turn the FDW, we see a rabbit appear on the video tape (the one John Locke was watching); we know Alice had been chasing after the White Rabbit, which led to entrance to Wonderland.
So the writers of LOST have these references to Alice in Wonderland mixed in with their FDW. My take is, don't worry about how the FDW works (it's a novum). But do enjoy the witty references the writers have created linking their FDW with the Alice book. Hope that explains soemthing about your question, Gracie.
Posting after 300 is probably fruitless, but I wanted to get to some of Nikki's specific points and questions:
• Seeing a pregnant woman crawling out of the ocean immediately brought to mind Rousseau, and made me wonder about any possible connections…
Two thoughts actually.
Claudia clinging to wooden debris suggested Danae, mother of monster-slaying Perseus, though this was quickly rejected when her island contact turned out not to be a shepherd and when she bore twins.
By invoking Rousseau’s island arrival, my head went straight to the older, lonesome, wandering earth goddess rather than the young, pregnant version. So the reflection in the water as she stooped to drink became, for me, an amalgam of Smokey (Eko’s creek drink) and crazy Rousseau. Accordingly, head-smashing, baby-stealing, and the moral education of the child in the natural state were all in bounds and fair game early on. As a result, neither the sly reveal of “Mother” as the pre-MIB Smokey nor the somewhat Oedipal lying in state of Nameless Man & Woman (A&E) came as much of a surprise. The eponymous philosopher had a bit of a thing going on with his maman, non?
Funny, black smoke served as harbinger to Rousseau on the day her baby was stolen, and she then used it as a ruse to steal Aaron. If Ben had to drain the bathtub in order to summon Smokey to take out the freighter mercenaries, maybe Smokey had been contained elsewhere and was, at least momentarily, unable to do anything to save Alex.
• The woman was wearing a red dress. Is that some old-fashioned, female version of a red ensign shirt? Same end result.
It’s been mentioned before by many others, but red seems very associated with the appearance of Smokey rather than simply homage to the Star Trek trope. When ghostly Claudia interrupts the senet game between the pubertal twins, I took the red to indicate Smokey manifestation, confirming my suspicion that “Mother” was really the MOST TWISTED manipulator we have ever seen on Lost. Imagine the deceit and ends-justifying at play here: deprive the newborn of race, culture, family, identity, name, and awareness of the larger world until hormones kick in at 13, then intentionally alienate your favored son by appearing as his dead mother and confessing all, driving him into a 30-year long lonely existence with a lesser and contemptible breed of creation, and then purging his erstwhile community and dashing his hopes for escape – all to induce him to end her reign as Smokey. Who wants to complain about their mom, now?
On a side note, the world-weary MIB complains that he has a better perspective on the wickedness of mankind, consistent with his otherworldly parent, after 30 years of living among them than does his lily-white brother who only views their activities “from above”. Hmmm, which religious figures do we think these guys are channeling?
• The mother’s name is “Claudia,” which actually means lame or disabled in Latin.
It is also the name of the Roman woman (Claudia Quinta) that exceeded the strength of a dozen men in single-handedly towing the Magna Mater (Cybele) statuary ashore during Punic II. The Egyptian/Oedipal riffs in Cybele’s story are available elsewhere.
• The other brother (who remains UNNAMED, like Claudia only had one name and Island CJ didn’t know what “names” were so she went with “Jacob” as the one name and “your brother” as the other) was hairy, compared to Jacob. At that moment I was convinced they were going to say his name was Esau.
I’m with your instinct (and Blam’s): it is Esau, the writers are just unwilling to be that specific. In that context, a little surprised that Jacob is firstborn rather than a heel-grabbing follower and that Esau is the mother’s favored son. Wait, this is Lost, inversions are standard fare, no surprise.
*** Part 2 ***
• The boy wants to know if there’s somewhere else across the sea. The term “Across the Sea” was repeated throughout (and not just to drive home the title…
See Walker Percy’s “The Message in the Bottle”… faith and science wrapped up in an island castaway bottle for a more apt reference. There’s lots more in there too that I’m sure Cuse tapped into, water as catalyst for awakenings, how a catholic writer should write about the end of the world… good stuff!
• Brother can see dead people... which now links him to Hurley. Is Hurley special, too? Would Miles count in that category? (He doesn’t see them, but talks to them.)
I think BiB could see Smokey in guise of birth mom, but am not convinced he can see dead people. Now as Smokey, he can probably see a whole lot.
• Island CJ tells Jacob, “I needed you to stay good.” She convinces him in this scene that he’s the good guy... does that make him the good guy?...
I don't think you're using the phrase "the good guy" in anything but a rhetorical sense. But, isn’t that what we all want for our children: our DNA wants a replacement and our spirit wants a clean slate. If you know one twin is headed for black, not grey, it makes sense to try to keep the other twin white, to maintain the overall balance. The slide of both into grey is obvious, I think the difference is what ethical tools and moral compass each was equipped with to find their way back into the light when they slip. And the choices they make once armed with those tools and compass.
• Did anyone else think, when Brother stood among the burning huts gritting his teeth, “And THAT, kids, is how Anakin became Darth Vader!”
Wait, are you saying that Anakin became Darth Vader when he exacted revenge for the rape and torture of his mother? He distinctly set aside his Jedi principles when he did so and a butterfly effect rippled through the force to Yoda at that moment. Big, but forgivable? However, he crossed into the darkside when he bent to Palpatine’s perverse manipulation to save him so he could save Anakin’s wife from death, and he sealed the deal in the slaughter of the Jedi younglings. In contrast, after the purge of admittedly debased Roman colonists, the MiB marches off to kill his mother.
• So I remember back when Jack found the bodies in the cave, he said by the state of decomposition the bodies had been dead for 50 or 60 years. Um... either he TOTALLY sucked in autopsy class…
Great question, probably no answer, and you’ll only be punished with another question if you ask again. There is, by the way, no autopsy course in your standard US medical curriculum. I know things are a little different above the 49th parallel, but we concentrate on the living down here ;-)
• At this point I’m assuming this section won’t be answered if it’s minor... but what happened to Island CJ’s mother? ...
I can see a Greek, then a Phoenecian, then a Sumerian, then a Cro-magnon, then a Neanderthal, then a hominid, but I’ll bet we never get to the beginning and I’ll bet they’d never show us a bona fides frickin’ Atlantean.
• So what exactly is the light in the cave? It looks beautiful, she says it’s the warmest, brightest light you’ve ever seen, but no one must ever find it…
Pleroma, Sophia, the divine spark, the Promethean flame, the god particle, Sunyata, Atman, aither… I don’t know. Semele, Levite priests, and Spielberg Nazi’s all understand the risk of too much of a go(o)d thing. Too much knowledge is as dangerous as too little. Too many years without youth will leave you a crisp grasshopper, and too much youth will leave you a Benjamin Button. When you get this one answered, please let me know, Nik.
What's in a name?
It occurred to me that Jacob is not a Roman name. I wonder why Claudia picked it?
In any case a clue to who is who. John and Jack have the same name, but so do Jacob and James (Ford.) So, does that mean Sawyer and not Jack is the replacement?
@Gracie: On Locke being pulled.
What you remember is Exodus, where Locke was dragged by Smokey, but he enver made it underground as Jack and KAte started pulling him out and eventually threw dynamite down the hole.
Locke's comments as to 'seeing something beautiful' was earlier in the season when talking to Walt.
That's why I was asking about him being completely dragged undergroung. I don't remember it, but if it happened, then the statement I was commenting on becomes HIGHLY relevant.
RE: FDW... I'll try to write a little something on what I believe happens.
@Rainier/Gracie: RE: light dimming.
I think they are both interesting takes on the light. We each have our perception.
I'd like to add this idea - that I don't ultimately subscribe too but here goes:
Let's consider Gracie's idea that the light is hope, as the last thing left in Pandora's box. What if the destruction of the island actually released all that was left (hope) and consequentially resulted in the circumstances we are observing through the flash sideways.
In fact, what if the light is indeed EVERYTHING - Good and Evil. By coming in contact with it and transforming in Smokey, MiB took all that is evil and all that was left in the source was HOPE. Then is it not possible that Jacob, because he only saw the Evil that became of his brother, believe only Evil lies there.
But in truth, it is Hope, and the destruction of the island, releasing this energy, results in a different, perceived better life, for most, the sideways reality.
I think with Lost, things can be seen on two levels. One one, the light could have something to do with electromagnetic force, and the energy that holds us together. On another, it could be hope that keeps us spiritually tied together.
Regarding the name Jacob - there is a Roman form, Iacobus, but would a non-Jew use that name? Just curious.
Thanks Benny. I was confusing two things. I didn't do the rewatch. :(
@Blam: That line always struck me as weird — "older than Jesus Christ"...He (as a person or concept) is not that old compared to the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenicians...
I also took it to be a point of reference Locke was using for a young Walt. Locke probably made a reasonably assumption that Walt was familiar with Jesus, and further assumed Jesus was probably one of the oldest things a kid knew offhand.
So he was basically saying "this game is old, older than the oldest thing you're familiar with" and Locke just assumed Jesus was the oldest thing with which Walt was familiar.
I assume that her story, and her mother's story, and her mother's (or father's) story, is very much like Jacob's, with at some point of course there being an Original Protector (maybe Momma herself), something I'm curious about but not knowledge I feel is integral to the story.
We're on the same page here. For all my grousing about answers/not answers, the story begins with Jacob, and we saw his beginnings. I'm comfortable assuming everything before that followed a similar pattern.
@Benny: See, I think there is a discourse right here. To me (and I think Blam), that was a big answer; to you (Gracie) it has become a new question.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy if they told me more on it, but I've gotten the level of information I needed.
Ditto.
Found a quote by Matthew Fox in the EW Lost special. Sort of an anti-spoiler.
"I will say this: It's not going to be what anyone thinks it is. I know a lot of people have written a lot of theories about how this will all end - and I'm pretty sure nobody guessed it."
Then again, I don't think Matthew hangs out here.
@TiaSabita: ...subtitles during Mother's & Claudia's conversation.
Mother: You’re hurt. Let me help you.
Claudia: Thank you.
Mother: What are you called?
Claudia: My name is Claudia.
Word Verf: kingu : What I must do when you win at checkers.
Another load of replies to a couple hundred comments ago...
Gracie: I think I've decided that the thing Mom says is "worse than death" IS Smokey. (I don't know how she would know that, but if I'm right, they would really need to explain how she knew that.)
Momma could've entered the cave herself and also been transformed into a Smokey. That would be how she destroyed the village and how she knew the fate worse than death that "going into the light" would bring about. Although she was apparently able to be stabbed to death by Esau... Hmm... She was stabbed by that knife Dogen later gave Sayid, though, so maybe she was a Smokey Momma and the knife would have worked on Smokey Locke if he'd been stabbed before speaking just as Esau stabbed Momma without a word from her, as Teebore speculated.
Sonshine: When we saw Brother building the FDW my sister went, "Wheeeeeeeeeeeeellllll oooooff FFoooooorrrtuuuuune!"
Ha! "I think I'd like to buy a name, Pat."
Sonshine: I still love this show, but I feel like they've spent way too much time on certain things - things that could have been explained in a much shorter period of time - and not enough time getting us to where we actually need to go.
Yes!
Joan Ranger: Didn't they say before (through some sort of word jumble or what-have-you) that Rose and Bernard were Adam and Eve? And black and white sides don't really apply to MiB and Mom. More like Grey and Darker Grey.
Well, Rose and Bernard weren't black and white either, but brown and kinda pinkish.
TM Lawrence: Should it really perplex any of us that Lost, in weaving edenic, arkadic, and atlantean tapestries on an island with absolutely no discernible source for wool, has failed to satisfy our unquenchable thirst for answers to mankind's oldest questions?
Oh, TM, you slay me (how appropriate). Your multicultural, multimedia, malted-milk-ball erudition has become a highlight of comments here.
VW: lathicar — Mobile bathtub.
... and some more thoughts 'n' questions as I continue to catch up and cogitate...
Did Jacob build the statue of Taweret to focus his summoning-people-to-the-Island powers (however they work) on pregnant women, hoping to find someone on whom to foist his position, like his mother did to him? He'd have to know about Taweret somehow, of course, from other people who arrived.
I suppose Esau could have directed its erection for the same reason, although he just wanted to leave, not find a replacement for Jacob.
More germane to me than when or why the statue was built, and an in-story answer that I think is rightfully expected, is when and why pregnancy became dangerous to women on the Island. The whole explanation of the Island's healing powers ironically killing babies in utero as if they were parasites and that in turn ironically leading to the expectant mothers' deaths worked for me (you just have to assume there was internal consistency with the elimination of the fetus being automatic and the damage being too fatally traumatic for the mother to overcome if the Island didn't need her around) — but then we got Amy Goodspeed's pregnancy and delivery of Ethan, pointing towards the baby trouble being a post-Incident-era thing.
VW: gonglou — Gong Li's older brother.
@Blam: but then we got Amy Goodspeed's pregnancy and delivery of Ethan, pointing towards the baby trouble being a post-Incident-era thing.
I posed this question earlier in the thread as well, and Benny suggested that the pregnancy issue is fallout from the Incident, in which the island's unique energy mixed with an H-Bomb affected the island in such a way that babies couldn't be born.
Which makes sense, considering we know the island energy has time travel properties, and the wombs of the pregnant woman looked, to Juliet, to be much older than they really were.
That's the explanation I'm going with, unless told otherwise (doubtful at this juncture).
@Blamborghini - Did Jacob build the statue of Taweret to focus his summoning-people-to-the-Island powers (however they work) on pregnant women, hoping to find someone on whom to foist his position, like his mother did to him
I'm sure MiB would have thought of an easier way to 'foist' his position.
*Jacob enters the cave where Mama and NoName are sleeping hard*
Hmm, I needs me a pregnant lady. How does one go about doing that? Think, think, think. Oh, yes, I know - I'll build a Giant Weird Ass Statue and lure them here through horrific circumstances. It may take thousands of years but I knows all about this baby-gettin' business!
Ah, but Joan - his Jacobness set out to build a monument to his imagined goddess of fertility - YOU. Oh, sure, he didn't quite get the bangs but - not bad for a 2,000 year old virgin, don'tcha think?
Aaahahahahahaa!
:D
@Blam:Did Jacob build the statue of Taweret to focus his summoning-people-to-the-Island powers (however they work) on pregnant women, hoping to find someone on whom to foist his position, like his mother did to him? He'd have to know about Taweret somehow, of course, from other people who arrived.
Like a lot of things in LOST, what we think goes together may not in fact. Chalrie's DS ring played no part beyonsd Charlie placing it in the crib (Sun finding it was meant to only trigger a memory of Charlie). My guess is the statue of Tarewet was built even before Claudia came to the island.
Claudia is a Roman name, and Jacob is Christian. So we are in the A.D.s. The game of Senet,w hich it seems Mother left on the beach for MiB to find, is from the Egyptian ages. I suspect all along that Mother's time was during the Egyptian Dynasties, and that's when she probably came onto the island. It would have been built during her time, then.
The boys did not see it for the same reason Jack and Hurley did not see the lighthouse--they weren't looking for it. There's a lot of that on the island. MiB says he looked all over the island for the cave, but couldn't find it. That's why he dug down. Jack asks how the tower stayed undiscovered for so long, after the Losties had been running round the island for so long. Similarly, Bernard and Rose remained hidden despite Sawyer's best attempts to find them.
So I'm going with, Tarewet built during Mother's time (probably even the Temple with all the hieroglyphics). Never seen because the boys never went near that part of the island.
I'm going with the theory that the boys never discovered the Statue because the writers didn't tell 'em to.
; ]
This episode blew my mind, never have i seen jacob so... i didn't know he had it in him. a lot of questions were answered but there are now more created, and we STILL DON'T KNOW MIBs NAME!!!!!!!
well, there are only 2 more left, and then all will (hopefully) be revealed
@Fred: Actually, Jacob is not a Christian name but rather has roots from Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew. It is one of the oldest names.
Since Claudia spoke Latin and that the events of Across the Sea are roughly placed 2 millenia prior to the normal events, the likeliest scenario is that Jacob's true name is, in fact, Iacobus, but that in translation we know it as Jacob and he has used the English form when addressing others.
This lends credence to the idea that the statue was already built, given the Egyptian nature. But as well, the temple is of Khmer and Srivijaya influence, both post-dating Jacob's arrival to the island.
So the hieroglyphics in the Temple and in the FDW cave both post-date Jacob's arrival - definitely in the FDW cave. Therefore, there is still a possibility that the statue was built post-Jacob's arrival.
But there is also the possibility that the statue was built pre-Jacob and the hieroglyphics were inscribed at a later time.
Here's a question, totally unrelated to anything I've read here, so far:
The thread that the Mother and Jacob use in their weaving...where do they get the fibers to make the strands? Wouldn't they need sheep or goats? We've seen neither, at any point in time on the island.
Think this question will ever be answered?
Hahahahahahhahaha!!
This show is drivin' me bananas!
@benny:This lends credence to the idea that the statue was already built, given the Egyptian nature. But as well, the temple is of Khmer and Srivijaya influence, both post-dating Jacob's arrival to the island.
True on the architechture of the temple, but I was just looking to date it from the hieroglyphics. Silly me, top think one could date anything on this show which is nothing more than a hodge-podge of signifiers.
Oh, I known Benny, Jacob has a Hebrew root, but I am just going by when it would be acceptable to use a Christian or hebrew name in a Roman culture. Certainly not early on, as the Jews would have been considered a conquered culture by the Romans.
I have also consdered, as you, the at the Temple was a Jacob construction over or near the cave (no real problem there, as MiB would now know where the cave was). I am with you on Tarewet being pre-Jacob. In the overall picture we just have to admit the writers have propunded a semiotic mismatch of cultural elements--part of their attempt at postmodernism. Much like bodies survive in a damp, tropical jungle for 2,000 years. Yeah, right; not 2 years in those conditions.
@Fred: RE: Jacob
True that a Hebrew name would not be considered for a name. but we don't know the history/background of Claudia (that may not matter much) and perhaps the name Jacob was adopted more from the Greek culture rather than Hebraic. Though this discussion may be in vain!
My bigger question is, would the name Jacob be adopted as a Christian name so early in the BCE/CE transition?
@Benny: I'd expect it would be generally adopted after Constantine in 300 AD (CE).
As you say, we don't know. And given Damon is Jewish, and Carlton is Catholic, I'm sure the two of them got together and wondered how they could screw with the audience by mixing religious elements into the story. I can see them asking all the writers, "Now your task is not just to write the next episode, but to embed so many clues that go nowhere. Remember, the more obscure the better, provided fans can find them on Wikipedia."
I haven't yet read through all the 370+ comments.
I am just going to post my brief thoughts:
What occurred throughout the entire episode is how LOST mankind is. When we began watching the series, one thinks about the characters being mysteriously, yet simply lost. Just lost as in "off the map."
Then over the course of season 1, more was revealed, and one could think, Is the island like that of Dr. Moreau? Or like the one in "The Most Dangerous Game?" Then, many thought the castaways were supernaturally Lost. That possibly the island is purgatory, or hell, or some kind of wormhole to a parallel universe?
Now we are beginning to see it as a morality tale of sorts. Mankind is seen as LOST, where even the seemingly good characters must do something bad, like the purges and such.
I can't help but think of aspects of the Old Testament Bible.
Nikki: Check your Inbox!
I've been gathering thoughts all day; I hope this comes together coherently:
@Benny: In a post that was more or less to you last night, I happened to mention that my Inbox was down in that same post when I said, " EGADS!! I should have said that! My Inbox is temporarily on the Fritz. Computer Guy knows what's wrong and hopefully will be over soon. If you sent me something, I have NOT received it yet." I did not by any means intend to imply that YOU personally would or could have sent me something, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. That should have been directed as I meant it to be towards anyone in the blog who has in the past e-mailed me.
Benny again: There was a post from me that I posted last night that ended up in "The Lost Finale: After The Show". This was supposed to come right before the one that I posted in "Across The Sea" at May 14, 2010 12:39 AM. These would have made a lot more sense if I'd posted them together. My bad, and my apologies for the confusion.
General questions for anyone: I saw this today somewhere on the Internet. IF we've already been told this, can somebody refresh my memory on the season and episode? If not to that degree of accuracy, who said it to whom?
"The Valenzetti Equation
This is a mathematical equation devised by Enzo Valenzetti used to predict the date of humanity's extinction. The Initiative aimed to delay that date by manipulative any of the equation's six core factors, which were the Numbers 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42."
Also there is a place on the Internet that shows a "Letter of Truce" signed between Goodspeed and Alpert. Where would we have been shown that?
These two questions only have significance to me because they imply that I don't have all of the information, and I'm trying to reason out an ending just like everyone else. Which seems foolish if you don't have all the information. I've seen all the DVD's, watched all the Bonus Features on the DVD's, and I've seen all of Season Six up to this point. Even with my disorder, I can honestly say I have NEVER fallen asleep while watching this show. I DO see things and forget I've seen them, and I will be impolite and say I often suffer temporary "brain farts", but I don't sleep. I didn't know there were Podcasts until way late, so obviously I'm missing some of those. Isn't the full story what we are seeing on ABC Tuesday nights? If I seem old-fashioned here, pardon me, but it seems the details of the show should all be shown on the show.
During last week's Podcast: Didn't they say that there would be ONE more after "Across The Sea" and before "What They Died For"? When does anyone expect that?
Following questions/comments regard just this episode: While reading over at Lostpedia, I noticed that it says, "Approximately 2,000 years before the crash of Oceanic Flight 815...." I mentioned that to Spouse. He asked me, "How does anybody know that to publish it as fact?" He's got a point.
My impression was that this happened a long, long time ago, but I wouldn't think to ever try to put a "time" on it much less pass it off as fact or even opinion. Do you guys (or Lostpedia people) pick up information from another source which is more specific than, say, I would have access to? How can anybody say that episode took place at any given time?
Anybody want to explain this?
Mom told the boys that she has made it so that they cannot hurt each other, yet a couple times we see Jacob trying to redecorate BIB/MIB's face. Jacob is NOT tickling him! Was that an outright lie then, or some kind of distortion of the facts?
After several viewings, it appears that although she didn't know she was going to get twins, she used both of them, and her idea is to keep them both there for all time (or until replaced). One to represent 'all of the evil of the world', and the other to represent a somewhat naive 'all of the good in the world'. (She knew he was "troubled" to be polite.) Over his lifetime though, Jacob sort of turned that on it's head because he's not all peaches and cream. Perhaps because he's somewhat limited in who he can converse with, he doesn't realize some of the things he does would be considered "bad" or not so good. Is that right?
I also saw on several web sites today that Jacob threw his brother into the stream towards the cave, where his brother then hit his head on a rock before passing into the cave. Thus leaving to interpretation or "perception" whether MIB is, in fact, dead or not. If dead, Jacob did not kill him, and his spirit lives on through the Smoke Monster. I can argue that one with myself until hell freezes over, but I'm not sure if there's a point to it. While he was supposed to meet up with a fate worse than death, and Mom said they couldn't hurt each other (?) a rock killed him, not Jacob.
@Gracie: No confusion and no offense on this side ;)
I'll give a shot at the questions.
1.Valenzetti Equation: this surfaced as part of one of the first ARG (Alternate Reality Games) which are non-canon. It was thrown in as a nod to the numbers but Darlton did say it was not relevant to the show.
2.Letter of Truce: I've seen every episode multiple times and the deleted scenes and I must say I've never seen this. We heard about the truce in LaFleur (I think) but I cannot recall a letter being shown.
As for the podcasts, they are not telling anything you don't already know or suspect. They were intended to discuss some aspect in vagueness. In some cases they offer enlightenment to some things (i.e. Oceanic 6, Flocke being bad, etc.)
That is one of the reasons I asked earlier if people here considered the podcasts spoilers, a lot of speculation can be buried based on information from the podcasts.
Because of the live event yesterday, I think that we can expect the last one sometime this weekend, slightly later than usual.
Expect possible confirmation that MiB=Smokey.
Another comment, just generally speaking, after another re-watch, I'm no longer sure if MIB wanted to leave to "go home" or just to prove to his long deceased Mother that he "could". He's quite specific when he says that one day he will prove that he CAN leave, or more accurately, when he says that he will disprove her statement that he can never leave. Following that line of thought to it's natural conclusion, does FLocke actually want to go somewhere else specifically, or does he just want to leave the island to finish the proof that it can be done?
After hearing people described this way, "they are greedy, manipulative, untrustworthy and selfish", well gee, sounds like the kind of people I want to spend time with! GEESH! I know, they are a means to what he sees as an end, but still. Hello? Then it becomes fairly obvious that even at that point the kid has become greedy and wants to get his hands on some more of the light. (Widmore Part One, Act One?) And after watching this several times I am again arguing with myself over whether the light has actually dimmed, which would be a "OMG" thing to happen, or if it's just darkened somewhat by the way it's shown and later by the smoke rolling around it. It was awfully bright at the beginning! My argument, but anybody is welcome to interrupt me!! Actually, please do!!
Also, generally speaking and based on some information that I saw today, I wouldn't be surprised at this point, if at The End everyone from the remaining Losties is dead except for three people and one non-person or force. Of course, as I always say, I could be very wrong. I'm looking for MIB/FLocke/Smokey or a successor to come out of this, Jacob's Replacement (which I'm still holding on to my Candidate - not Kate), Desmond, and quite possibly Kate, which I base only on one thing I read one day a while ago that appeals to me personally. That does not mean that I have in any way given up all "hope" for Hurley. (Please don't let him die, please!) But following a path we've seen before, I can very easily see Jack getting hit on the head (or something) and Candidate A is dead (OOPSIE!), leaving us with Candidate B (which was mine since I selected one and knew all of this other stuff). Sort of like what happened to MIB and Jacob in the beginning.
Has anyone (anywhere) been able to translate the Latin yet?
@Gracie: 2000 years: Again, podcast (Geronimo Jack's Beard). Jorge reads a section of the script that says: "the same dagger Dogen will give to Sayid 2 millenia from now".
This establishes a reference point that is not given in episode and serves no purpose to have in the script.
RE: Rock hit. Speaking from experience, a hit on a rock at that speed is unlikely to kill someone, just really hurt! Otherwise I'm not sure where I am right now :S
Your other questions are infinitely debatable. What is her definition of 'hurt' really?
After this episode, I find it so hard to believe that after all these years, since Jacob and MIB were born, that they chose flight 815 to be the next candidates? It is so hard to grasp.
I kept thinking that with everything that went on for six seasons, I am convinced that in the movie, "Men in Black" that the whole universe could really be an entire universe on a dog's collar. Remember that scene? I know I have referenced it before on this blog. But it continues to stay with me. When crazy Mother says to child MIB, "This island is all there is", maybe she is right. Maybe Richard, the others, Danielle Rousseau and team and Oceanic 815 are really all teeny tiny universes that are brought to the island "by accident". Maybe they shouldn't be there.
I don't know. There are 375 comments now and I am not even halfway through but I had to write that.
Also, remember when Locke saw the light during the time traveling and we all thought it was the hatch, maybe it was the cave of light? Could be.. could be...
@Benny: 1.Valenzetti Equation: this surfaced as part of one of the first ARG (Alternate Reality Games) which are non-canon. It was thrown in as a nod to the numbers but Darlton did say it was not relevant to the show.
Me: DANG it! I keep forgetting that thing. And to make it worse, wasn't there something else early on? I missed the whole thing with that (or those), so whatever important information there might have been, I will never see it. I indeed hope you are correct and it's not canon! (sob!)
RE: Letter of Truce: Go here,
http://www.buddytv.com/slideshows/lost/23-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-dharma-initiative-46486.aspx
and then go to Number 21. There's a picture of the dang thing!
Podcasts: I DO know there is no new information there, but at this time, I find them sad, and I don't want to miss the last one because it's, well, the last one. But I assume from your answer that they never did tell anything you didn't already know. I do NOT in any way consider them spoilers, but I haven't heard all of them. The ones I've heard didn't give an inch!
Thanks for reminding me about the live event. Do you know if that is on-line somewhere? Or a transcript? Anything?
And things like a reference point for the knife? No, they don't need to put that in an episode, but just today I have seen it argued that it is not the same knife, while all along I figured it was. So to have that just clarified is a big help to some people. I was originally wondering when was the first time we knew of this knife, but even that isn't important. It started from "Across the Sea" and MIB killed Mom with it. Last time we saw it, um, I think Sayid killed Dogen with it, but I don't recall anything after that. Correct me if I'm wrong anytime!
@Benny: So just for clarification: Am I correct to say that everything you need to know about the show has been shown on Tuesday nights and before this season, is shown in it's entirety on the DVD's? A convoluted way of asking if "The Valenzetti Equation" or anything else learned outside of the actual show is in any way important? If you didn't see it here, forget about it?
@Benny: Home alone tonight and trying to do all the reasoning alone: To date we do NOT have an actual explanation for the numbers (or 108) beyond the placement of the numbers in front of the peoples names on the ceiling of the cave and at the lighthouse, right? At the lighthouse it seems that was like turning the wheel to that degree to get the image of whatever Jacob had stored up in his mind? (Jack's house.)
If it concludes that they have another meaning, we don't know that yet?
This week I am very late in getting to Geronimo Jack's Beard, which I think is made available on Thursdays? So if that is mentioned there, it had already been posted long before on Lostpedia cause that was one of the first places I went days ago. So we know Jorge is right. How anybody else would even guess at an exact timeline is beyond me. (But then I came into this so late that I don't even know who writes for Lostpedia, and for all I know, they are 'people in the know'. For any degree of accuracy, I would have simply said, "A long, long time ago...." and left it at that.
I'm far ahead of you on knowing that so many of these can and are being argued endlessly back and forth. (What does 'hurt' mean? Is MIB still actually alive? Jacob would not know until neither woke up, or didn't, what dead or death was. Did he die but his spirit, desires, and wishes live on within Smokey?) I'm leaning towards this: Whenever I see that (including with me!) where people CAN and DO argue the same thing for a long time back and forth, it probably isn't important to how the show is going to end. Interpretation is left open for speculation. My problem is in remembering within that I've already come to that determination and it's time to stop arguing with myself. That IS in fact my actual determination, so why do I still find myself going back over the same arguments? :o) Duh?
Just got the notification from ABC regarding the Smoke Monster t-shirt? Um....no offense, but is that it?? OMG! They could have done sooo much with that. I'll have to see THAT again.
CBP68 said: "I kept thinking that with everything that went on for six seasons, I am convinced that in the movie, "Men in Black" that the whole universe could really be an entire universe on a dog's collar. Remember that scene? I know I have referenced it before on this blog. But it continues to stay with me. When crazy Mother says to child MIB, "This island is all there is", maybe she is right. Maybe Richard, the others, Danielle Rousseau and team and Oceanic 815 are really all teeny tiny universes that are brought to the island "by accident". Maybe they shouldn't be there."
ME: You get a special place in my heart for mentioning a movie that I have actually seen! (Be still my heart!) I think other than the original three Star Wars movies, that's the first time that's ever happened! My problem is that I don't remember the scene to which you refer, but I probably should. Nonetheless, I understand what you mean. This show has had so much to do with games, stories, referrences, illusion, and especially cons. Cons are real big to me because they spent so much time beating us over the head with it! I've had the feeling since Sawyer killed Cooper that this whole thing is one big con. I've mentioned the game board Chewie played with in Star Wars that had moving creatures on it, and that is one example of how I usually feel this will end. Somehow we've been conned. WE are the mark! And I'll probably be okay with that if it happens, as long as I understand the con and how they did it. Not down to the nitty-gritty. Just the finale of this big con. I've gotten through so much of it now that to just be Lost at the end would be ghastly.
If anyone has a really clear picture of the new ABC Lost t-shirt, could you please tell me what's on it that is pink? I see a ship, but there's a lot more, and it's not clear in the pictures of it that I've seen.
What is clear is the star, Smokey (who sadly bears a remarkable resemblance to a scarf), the ship, (Black Rock) and maybe a polar bear (?). There is more pink up top by the T in LOST, and I have very vague images of random pink here and there like (?) splotches of pink? If you click on it, it does get bigger, but I cannot see anything more clearly than I've described.
@Gracie:
Valenzetti (all ARGs) = non-canon
Letter of Truce DOES NOT come from the show/DVDs. It might be from an ARG.
That slideshow you linked also has the 2008 DHARMA Recruiting Project, which is also non-canon.
RE: Numbers - That is somewhat correct. The numbers were intriguing and connecting but I'm not sure that they have any specific connection other than coincidence/destiny. I remember Darlton saying something about the numbers recently, but I don't remember where or what...
RE: Lostpedia - it's a wiki, meaning an online community and anyone with an account (i.e. ME) can write something that can be edited by other members. With such a big community, things usually get straightened out and are usually correct. That's one of the benefits of a wiki.
@Benny: Thank you for that last post. I just wanted to quickly let you know that I did see it and appreciate the information.
I am currently getting (?) more information from this week's podcast!!!!
Benny: I'm still listening, but I want to ask: Do some people on here consider the podcasts to be spoilers and we're not to talk about them?
Guidance please?
@Gracie: I asked earlier and so far I only got a few answers who said they didn't...
Can I ask where you got the podcast? My feed does not have it yet!
ACK@ YOU'RE KIDDING?
OH WELL I'M SORRY! Benny I thought you were already there!!! I'm over at http://lostspoilers-odi.blogspot.com/
I only went there because it said the podcast was there when I googled it, and it IS. I FOUND IT!
ADVANCE QUESTION: I think around 17 minutes in, they are talking about something about Jack and Sawyer, ok? Doesn't Carlton MISSPEAK when he says "Sawyer was right." Listen to the way the conversation is heading and the obvious direction it's going and then he says, "Sawyer was right." Ummmm. Come again?
Go. Go.gogogogo I'll be around later.
The podcase is in fact available for those who didn't know that. I kept googling for it, and I found it here"
http://lostspoilers-odi.blogspot.com/
Enjoy! I am!
Did you find it, Benny?
@Gracie: I'll actually have to check it out tomorrow. So take some notes down and I'll be here to discuss it tomorrow late morning!
Already taking notes. I've been listening for forever, and I'm only 19 minutes in! I have a very very specific question already. Actually two of them!
They'll keep. I just hope you found it cause I just figured you were already ahead of me! Way ahead of me!
Please. Oh, please. Do not let this show end with a sleep disorder of any kind! Please! That would just be too weird! No sleep disorders!!! I'm none too sure I would even know how to handle that. In Fight Club, one of the rules is this: "They fight without shirts or shoes." Both of our men wear shirts always, right? MIB and Jacob always have a shirt on. The other Fight Club rules look a little frightening, but they both wear shirts. Can't be, I hope. It just wouldn't be right.
This was printed on the transcript of Nikki's live chat from Wednesday: 12:27 [Comment From Huh: ]
Final scene: Jacob & MIB playing their game - close-up on pieces, (anyone notice how many there were, btw?) and we see they're carved in to images of the Candidates...one left standing...
Sort of like Chewbacca playing the game in Star Wars? I wish I knew who Huh is. We are traveling on the same train, and I'm wondering if our destination is going to be the same.
Question for anyone who made it to Geronimo Jacks Beard this week:
They say so much about the wine bottle, and Jacob had it, but now it's broken, and did Richard drink from it, and yada, yada. Now I AM confused. Were they trying to say that they had to have what was in the wine bottle FROM the wine bottle, or Jacob could bring what was in there to the next Candidate in another container would work too? As long as the Candidate gets to drink that drink while (I hope) Jacob does the Latin then it's good to go, right? I must have listened to that part 10 times, still confused!
It took us till "Across the Sea" to finally get an answer to Widmore's enigmatic comment to Ben, when Ben stole into Charles' bedroom. Widmore says, "I know what you are, boy."
We all thought this was just some class consciousness expressing itself through Charles' upper-crust mentality. But in fact, the waters that saved young Ben's life transformed him, just as it transformed Sayid and MiB.
In MiB's case, the transformation was extreme, turning him into Smokie (a true loss of innocence). In Sayid's case, the pollution in the water robbed Sayid of his soul, or at least darkened it, but saved his life. In Ben's case we may surmise the waters were clean, but still he was touched by the source of the island-light through the water. Richard was right when he said Ben's innocence would be lost (this is the "evil" Jacob attributes to the light).
If we think of the source like a radiation, then it also must have affected Desmond all those years in the Swan (antidote or not). As well, all the water on the island must be conaminated if ever so slightly by the light source. Was this why MiB led Jack to the caves for the water?
I don't attribute the light source as being pure evil--unless you see it as a manifestation of Lucifer trapped on the island below the ground, and then you've got to see the island as a circle in Dante's Hell--but I do see it as one might the Holy of the Holies. Either way it is powerful, seemingly conscious (I get the errie feeling that when we see the boys looking into the cave, we are given the point of view from inside the cave, as from a viewer inside looking out), and capable of acting with those running around the island.
"That's why the Others kidnapped the children!" Doh!!Okay, I've got that one finally! And it actually makes sense. I'm typing while listening to GJB's podcast, and so far in the total of the story, this really great story? I agree with Sidekick that the FDW is kinda hinky. It's the joke in a really, really good story right now.
I actually had the above already typed when they start talking about the well, the FDW, and what MIB says to Mom. Now I'm like OMG! !! Benny, I'M GETTING IT!!
Yoohoo!
They seem to be making a point that we know that Mom was passive when she was stabbed just like Jacob was. And they seem to have had a preconceived notion from reading the script of what the waterfall/light thing was going to look like. Not a problem for me because I didn't read the script. I thought it "appeared" fine. The only thing I've seen that appeared "cheesy" was the well FLocke through Desmond down a couple of weeks ago. I'm good to go with everything else.
We are getting answers to this story which I didn't understand totally under I went to the Podcast and Geronimo Jacks Beard's weekly post. It is happening, and the end is nigh.
Under the heading of "Old Things I Still Don't Quite Understand" is one thing I just stumbled on and reminded myself of:
Sayid was supposed to be evil incarnate. Dogen said so. Dogen was taught this by somebody, we assume. And he told Jack that it had already happened to his sister. But as time has passed we've seen that both of these people have in many ways gotten better. I think Sayid was our-beloved-Sayid shortly before he died. (Fred I just read what you just posted - stay with me here.) In my opinion Sayid recovered. Claire can still be salvaged but is, um, like re-eviled (?) when she spends more time with FLocke? Ben was also affected when his life was saved. And for a long time he was evil. But now Ben is capable of swinging either way, as we learned for sure when he could have gone off to meet up with FLocke, but chose instead to go back with Ilana because she would "have him". So it is NOT all-consuming, ever-lasting, complete, evil incarnate. MIB might be, but it was wrong all over the place for Dogen to tell Jack (and us) that Sayid and Claire were. Does anyone want to tell me why this is wrong?
@ Fred: What Widmore doesn't know is that Ben had the opportunity to go with FLocke, and if what FLocke said was to be believed, Ben may have believed that by going back with FLocke, one day he could again rule/protect the island. But Ben passed. And I took from that that Ben passed (even knowing that FLocke said he could regain power) simply because Ilana would "have him" and Ben made a choice of free will to go where he'd be wanted.
So "Boy" isn't what Widmore assumes he is, and that's going to cost him (Widmore), I believe. He already expects one thing to be there, and it's not. I think in the Life Of Widmore, there is no gray. It's all black or white. So he can't possibly see Ben as something good. (Sometimes I'd have to agree with that assessment, just not lately.) I can see where there is still time for Ben to flip on all of us, so I know it's possible, but as of now, he's on the good side.
The transformation you referred to is meaningless if they can come back to the good side IMHO. And this comment: "Richard was right when he said Ben's innocence would be lost (this is the "evil" Jacob attributes to the light)." I'm not sure how much that should count against you IF you can and do get it back, and I believe that needing other people, and knowing their importance, was like a return to that part that Ben had lost. Ben is hard to use for an example when you're talking about why someone should be given a chance because he's been so hateful. Looked at another way, if Ben were Sayid, most of us would want Sayid to have that chance.
Yes, I agree the water was contaminated, and Jack through Christian, through Smokey, led them all straight to it. Also, once you drink it, maybe you can have things like the ability to see dead people (Hurley). They could be just hallucinations that the island sides (either one - Jacob or MIB) want you to see!. So, something you see, like when Jack saw Christian ANY time (that's not a good example) could be put there by the good side or the bad side just to get your attention. As a hallucination from the island.
But if Jacob never talked to anyone at all, how did Ben, Dogen, Widmore, Ellie OR even Richard learn this stuff? It's not like something you'd pick up from trial and error. The rules on how the island works had to be passed along somehow, but everyone says that they've never actually talked to Jacob, so how'd they know? THIS part I must be missing something.
I thought of this right after I submitted that last one.
I think the reason a lot of people want to know what happened to Annie is not a recommendation of her, per se. They want to know if she's dead. And if she is, did Ben kill her outright? Did he let her die as part of the Purge? Did he, as the Leader of the Island Others, allow her death to happen?
It seems strangely imperative to know because it was an innocent love from an innocent time. If he allowed her to die, or in any way slaughtered her himself, that is evil. A different kind of evil. And if I knew now that was true, I'd be looking for the REAL reason that Ben went back with Ilana. Like he wanted inside information or he wanted a chance to pick them off one at a time or something like that. Maybe I should be doing this anyway because Ben is Ben, but I haven't lately because he DID go with Ilana. I might need to reconsider that. Perception is everything!
Joan Crawford said: "One day you can make up your own game and everyone else will have to follow your rules"
I dunno...is this why Jacob is doing all this? Because he stayed away and thought people were good? He wasn't curious enough to actually join them...but he was curious enough to drag countless souls to him and experiment. Is it really just a pissing contest between brothers?"
Yes, I'm doing some catching up from way back. First of all, he had to stay away. He might have been able to make visits (that thing with Ilana and that relationship is still hanging around), but he couldn't stay because he had to oversee the island. Based on what his Mom told him, isn't he more likely to believe that ALL people are bad, and in order to find a replacement for himself, he would think that he'd literally be looking a long, long time. In his eyes maybe he could afford to drag people to him and ruin their lives, because they're bad people anyway. He did tend to believe what Mom told him, and he was so naive that she got away with that.
The part where he says he shouldn't have to step in and tell somebody else what they should do (or however he actually worded that), is true. People should just know right from wrong. But based on what Mom told him alone, I don't know why he would ever, ever expect that anyone would just do what was right. So, for appearances, I think he planned to ruin MANY lives, indeed.
I'm thinking in terms of some kind of game now, but before I got to that line of thinking, I would say, yes, they're having a pissing contest like boys/men do. In some ways, they still are.
@Benny said: "@Gracie: I'll actually have to check it out tomorrow. So take some notes down and I'll be here to discuss it tomorrow late morning!"
Benny: I keep coming back to this because I think you're expecting me to post something regarding my notes, which I DO have those notes and some thoughts from G.J.Beard too. But I'm very uncomfortable with posting things outside of what I'm used to seeing, and I don't recall having ever seen anyone talk specifics about a podcast. I don't want to be a spoiler even when I'm not spoiling! So whenever you're ready, since you've been here longer and know the rules, you lead and I'll follow. I just haven't been here long enough to undertake something I haven't seen done before, and I'm not comfortable with leading at all. Not if some consider it spoiling.
I will say both in advance and as a warning that I was getting a lot from G.J.B., but Child came home in the middle of listening, and I'm planning a re-listen for later on at some point. I want to see what if anything I didn't quite catch.
Kiki said: "Sp said -- Sawyer would chose to remove his candidacy for sure if he could.
I read this, moved on, then had to come back to it. I'm not so sure that Sawyer would. His main objective this season has been to get off the island. But I think is more about losing Juliet than haveing anything to do with being a candidate. If he knew what he was a candidate for it might change his mind. I feel like he is just looking for a purpose. While Juliet was alive, he was happy living on the island. Early on in the series he asked Kate why she would want to leave the island. I'm not giving up on the possibility that Sawyer might "see the light."
I haven't seen this opinion brought out prior to just now finding this one. I'd like to say that I couldn't agree more. Not only is what Kiki said true, but didn't Sawyer himself say just this season that "some people are just meant to be alone"?
Let's see what I can do here and try to make it coherent for everyone. After the LAST episode post, which was The Candidate, I had left four things unsaid or undone that I had intended to come back to sooner than this. I'm sure everyone is aware that there is a LOT of stuff to read this week if you're trying to stay on top of this story. But I didn't forget you, and besides, there's been a huge Post-It Note rudely stuck on my laptop all week as a reminder so that I couldn't forget. So these posts go back to the 9th of May, and I had to go find them by username's, which is all that I had noted.
JS said: "@Gracie - Re: FLocke's scar. When he talks to the losties near the plane, or directly to Jack, you can see his forehead is smooth. Also, if you go all the way back to season 5, when he is still in the suit, there are closeups of him, on the beach, or when he is talking to Ben and says, Welcome back to the land of the living."
JS: I did go back and look at FLocke's scar, and it seems more than apparent that something has changed since he "died". Which shouldn't be, because how is anything going to change after you die? But if others take more notice to FLocke's facial scar since you brought it up, I think everyone will notice you're right; it has definitely changed. I don't know when, but it's noticeable now. Can someone be trying to tell us something at this late date through his scar? Does anyone have an opinion on this? If you look for it, it is most peculiar.
Nurse Brian had said: @Gracie: I didn't even get the mirror effect As beautiful as seeing the birth of your child, I think you seeing your own abdominal incision may be traumatizing. I'm not saying you couldn't handle that, but why risk it? I'm surprised your spouse was able to see that as well. (Which we followed up on later.)
Then, Joan Crawford said: @Nurse Brian - I think you seeing your own abdominal incision may be traumatizing.
I honestly can't think of anything I want to see more. I asked to look but they wouldn't let me :( I made my husband look and he goes green and says "There is...a lot of red and guts." He didn't like it but did admit it was pretty cool.
I had wanted to tell Nurse Brian that back in my second trimester there was this whole discussion on C-sections. My family history has no mother going back for as far as we could ever determine who gave birth naturally, because we aren't built to spread this way ( - ) meaning hip to hip outward, not pelvis to tailbone direction. We just aren't built for the spread. Every woman going back at least four generations has had surgery of some kind or lost that baby. (Back in Grandma's day, there were a lot of lost babies.) But we had this whole discussion with my doctor for in the event he had to move to an emergency C-section. This was in no way MY choice. But I told him then, and after much debate between us, and then Spouse jumping in, I WAS supposed to get the mirror effect. That's how we had set it up prior to. He was going to let me watch this because the reason I was pushing so hard for natural birth, and against family history, was because I wanted to see my Child come into the world. He was with me and agreed. When the time actually came though, I had been in labor for so long (over 20 hours), I'm very petite (normally 5' 2 3/4", but only about 105 - 110 pounds with very small bones - I buy my clothing from the little girl's department), my water had broken hours before, and I was completely exhausted. My bones were not spreading in any direction, he said, "We ARE going now", and we went. It was his decision to put the sheet up. I was too tired in those minutes to care. But everyone knew that I really did care. There was gonna be hell to pay when I got myself back together. I was prepared for the incision, but I was in no way, shape, or form prepared for that kind of exhaustion. Generally speaking, men are clueless. As far as physical labor in concerned, I didn't know exhausted until it came to THAT exhausted.
Finally, I told somebody, who I cannot find or remember, that I would try to locate "Best Cock" among the Bonus Features. Then Crazyinlost said: "I already emailed you with this, but for anyone else who is interested, I think it is on the s4 bonus features titled, "The Right to Bare Arms", where they talk about keeping track of all the guns on the show, I.e. Who has them now, and where did they come from."
I'm going to go with Crazyinlost's answer, because 1) Her reasoning is very sound. That IS where it should be. 2) Getting up and digging through all my discs, putting them in and taking them out, to try to locate that one Bonus Feature requires far more energy and strength than I have these days. The dizziness alone just upon standing is nauseating. So, I'm NOT standing as much as I can get away with it until we find out what is causing that.
I hope this answer, to whomever it was that asked me, will suffice.
This post was between Benny and Kiki:
Benny said: "@Kiki: And that's another interpretation of Sayid's actions as well. Remember hos in season 4 many believed Claire had died in the barrack explosion. This would suggest that the Claire we see is analogous to the post-Temple Sayid as well.
From what we have been told of the show, I think they are all legitimate interpretations and is one of those things that will be talked about following the end of the show.
Remember this is from the post on The Candidate. I have gone back and forth, up and down, and tried to figure out what you two are talking about here, simply because it's intriguing all by itself, and I cannot locate the origins.
I understand everything in the first paragraph until it gets to "This would suggest...." which I can't make sense of.
And the second paragraph I just can't figure out what you're talking about at all. It's perplexing, and very intriguing.
Would anyone like to interpret?
@Benny and Kiki:
Kiki said: "Benny -- I go back to someone's mention of that river in Egypt. :)
I think you all did a re-watch before I found this blog. Any interest by anyone in doing a start to finish once we know "all the answers" to watch for things we missed and pat ourselves on the back for things we caught. It has been so long for me since I watched the first few seasons, I need a refresher. You all blow me away with everything you know! Sometimes I feel so Lost . . . "
If you guys elect to do this, I'm all in. Actually, we are doing this now, or we've started rewatching and are almost finished with season one. I think it was Carlton who, when asked how to prepare for the last several episodes, said to go back and look at the last few episodes of season five and all of season one, so we did that and took notes. I've enjoyed it every time I've watched it, and could continue from here while starting all over again from scratch. This is just a very complex, very enticing show.
One of the biggest notes I have is now very interesting: In this rewatch I have written in my notes that Locke says over and over to the point of irritation: "Don't tell me what I can't do!" Now we have MIB trying to leave the island and he's been told that he never can. I can just hear him screaming, "Don't tell me what I can't do!"
Okay Benny: Two things:
1. I've finally stumbled upon your conversation (?) back on 5/11 regarding the Podcast information, and since I know I'm not going to be able to read through everything, did you get a definitive answer to your initial question about spoiling and the podcasts? If so, I would love to know the final word as, say, what Nikki would prefer, since it is her site. I will say in her honor, and before we say anything more, that once upon a time I posted something here which I don't even remember what it was, but Nikki very politely e-mailed me privately and asked me not to do that because some people didn't want to know. I have honored her wishes (as far as I know) ever since that time. So let's not guess, okay? When in doubt, error on the side of caution. Or ask Nikki directly.
2. I also saw your comment on the Lists. We do have three indeedy. There's a set of names in the cave which I've long believed belong to MIB. There's a second set in the lighthouse which I've long believed are Jacob's original list of Candidates. Then we were told that Widmore has a list. Think about that for a second. Widmore hasn't even been there for years. So in order for him to have a list, he has been to and he got it from the cave, he has been to and got it from the lighthouse, he has pulled it out of his (nevermind), or somebody enlightened him about who the Candidates would be a long time ago. Assuming he didn't pull it (although that seems most logical), how would he know about or get to either the cave or the lighthouse? (The information that we know he has implies that his list partially, at least, matches the cave.) That only leaves the option that he was given information about who would be on it some time ago. I only have two options here. Either somehow Ellie got it, and she gave it to him. Or he knows (or he knew about) the "very intelligent man" we haven't met (that we know of) who built the Lamp Post, and he (Widmore) got the information from him. Or he did in fact pull it from you know where. They are making it "appear" to be legitimate. I have never been sure whether or not to believe him. Do you have an opinion that you will actually share with me on where Widmore got his list? Does anyone?
One of the things I am most looking forward to as this whole thing wraps up is the Widmore question. I think he's a slimy ball of over-developed, ego-enhanced, should-have-been-left-on-the-sheets-waste-of-sperm (I AM being nice!), but he keeps saying, "I'm a good guy." I hate that this thing is ending, but I'm dying to know if he's gonna get his! I want him to get his s l o w l y, from Smokey. Or even more slowly from a, hopefully, enlightened Ben.
Benny: If for any reason you would like to refer back to your question or the immediate replies you got regarding the Podcasts, I do know exactly where those are by date and time. But I don't know if you ever got anything following that date, because there's a whole lot of stuff I'm just now reading all over the place. Only you would know since you follow everything so well.
I was just rereading what I'd said about Widmore and the Lamp Post, and I'd like to get some thoughts on that. As I see it, the island is this whole story. The "character" that is the island is the biggest character of them all. The told me to consider it a character or part of the cast, and I did and still do. We DID have an entire time when Six were AWOL and officially off the island, but it was calling them back. Aaron was born there, and Ji-Yeon conceived, but both "appear" to have successfully left the island behind so far. Ben has been off and Desmond has been off, now Widmore is back, but each one was brought back or called back or "lured" somehow. Even Widmore was lured back by the island or his own feverish desire to profit from it. They all fall into: "The island isn't finished with you yet." There was also the Freighter. Everything else happened on this island (and it's little sister island) except for one thing. (I'm not counting the flashes in any direction because that's THEIR story, not island story to me.) There's only one place where the island IS that it ISN'T, and that's the Lamp Post. It was built by a "very intelligent man" and it's in Los Angeles. We really don't know how far away that really is from this island. What else do we know? Ellie appears to know more about the place than anyone else, but that could be appearances only. It seems it's located in the basement of a church or a church-like structure (I'm reaching here - no exact recall). The Lamp Post may be in L.A, but it's all island, all the time. It's even a Dharma station. Do you think before we wrap there will be anything more forthcoming on what this really is and who built it? It seems very out-of-place to be of-island, but not on-island.
And to Fred who said: "Nope, don't have the level of mathematics needed to understand problems of quantum entanglement. But, hey, neither do the writers of LOST, and they're doing a great job on the story. So none of us need to be too involved in the science bit. Afterall, if it were too complicated then no one would watch the show. The solution to the island has to be relatively simple so every viewer understands, much like Faraday's time travel illustration using an LP. My expectation is I'm probably wrong, but it wuld be so cool if something like Schrodinger's Box was what was going on."
I have gone back to this reply that you sent to me more times this week than you can know. There is just so much in there that's applicable! (If you're not familiar with Fred's reply, I didn't copy the whole thing!) And the way that Faraday explained everything that was so utterly complex in such a simple matter-of-fact way was absolutely brilliant writing. I think before it's all over we are going to hear more about "perceptions". One example: Hurley thinks he sees people on this absolutely nutty island. Maybe nobody else can see them because they're not really there, but Hurley's perception is that they are so that makes them real to Hurley. Could that also apply to, say, Widmore perceives that he has a list which is there because Widmore thinks he has one, but it's not actually there at all? You can really go a lot of place when you break things down that way.
Teebore said this way back when: "Interesting that for all these many, many years, MiB has been yearning to go home to a place he's never been. Home=someplace off the island, and that's all he cares about."
That kind of puts the whole thing in a nutshell, but I've been thinking of it more as a bombshell. Which one is actually worse? The "good guy" who naively believes his "mother" although she admittedly killed his natural mother, took her place, raised him (and his brother) to serve her needs, gets left behind by his wandering brother, loses his mother to his brothers' violent outburst, sends his brother to a place "worse than death" in retaliation, brings people to this island knowing the harm that may befall them, up to and including the possibility of death (or worse), while looking for a perfect candidate all the while, (and knowing while he's looking that these are not happy people to begin with), does this with no consideration ever given to what this actually means to them, although he knows full well what it's cost him in terms of freedom. He would have no ability at all to relate to someone who has previously had a life other than on the island. OR the "bad guy" who is righteous in his beliefs because they're his beliefs, leaves the only people he's ever known to go to stangers in an attempt to win his freedom from the island, tries desperately to find a way to leave permanently, tries to leave Mom and brother peacefully, finds out from "Mom" that he's stuck here, wasn't supposed to have been there to begin with, learns "Mom" murdered his natural Mother, learns his "friends and relatives have been slaughtered by dear old mum and all the work he's been doing with these people has been sabotaged, is told by his brother that HE is staying with Mom even though she DID do all of this, becomes outraged, kills Mom in heat-of-the-moment-anger (which is manslaughter), gets the holy snot beat out of him by his brother who then decides he's better off "worse than dead", ends up with a body (?) like that for his troubles, and only ever wanted to go "home" to a place he's never been to and has never seen, and, as Teebore said, that's all he cares about. The end justifies the means. While I agree with everyone who has said that the whole gang is a few cards short of a deck, it's also very well thought out by the writers and horribly, miserably sad. Neither one of them ever had a chance from the get go. And until I know (if I'm ever going to know) what he's protecting, I think Jacob actually comes out of that looking worse. He's been off the island, and he remains naive, but he's seen what is out there. He knows where the people he's bringing to this island have come from. And to ask that of them, to force it upon them, when he knows what it has cost him, he better be protecting something really big to all peoples, of all faiths, of all nationalities, all colors, and both sexes. How important, if at all, will all of this be to the outcome? I have two bodies, so I want to say they're both dead and probably happy about it. One mauled eons ago by the final outcome of his own rage, and the other literally reduced to ashes in a pit of his own making. But I fear their souls, their essence, their selves, their knowledge, for them, still lingers. That's some pretty heady stuff, Kids! And it just continually amazes me that it's all coming from a TV show. WOW!
DavidB226Morris said: "Ever since Season 4, we've known that the passengers of 815 seem to be pawns in a bigger game. We just didn't know HOW big the game was,who was playing and what exactly the stakes were. We got a hint in The Incident, but in this episode we got the real thing
And just 50 minutes before this episode went to air, I asked this:
Everyone, it seems has their own theory regarding Lost. Ok, so take your theory for just one second and set it aside. Within the first ten or fifteen minutes of Lost: Season Six, the writers wanted us to know that this island is underwater. They showed it to us. Everything as we last saw it, just now under the sea. Now can anyone pick back up their theory and apply it to an island that we know is underwater?
Anyone?
I would be very curious to know if anyone out there has a theory after this episode and learning that what is/was on this island is so very, all important, and is now underwater? To find out how or what that means is everything. (Sadly, it happened so long ago, I keep forgetting it until something reminds me.) Can it survive if it's still got a place to be kept safe even if that's underwater? Does it need to "breathe"?
@Gracie: RE: Bottle.
They are wondering if it really is important or more symbolic. Could the 'ceremony' be done using the water from the cave? Just do the incantation on that.
RE: evil incarnate.
I think I approached that a few weeks ago. An idea I put forward was that, because MiB/Smokey has taken the embodiment of a candidate, his hold on others is not as strong.
RE: podcast... currently listening
To Blam who said: "And that, folks, is why actors usually put on generic vaguely English accents if they're from another time and place, supposedly speaking another language. Your good old American voices, especially from the mouths of babes, sound weak and whiny."
I wanted to ask you ages ago where you hail from, and this reminded me. Dear where are you from? Please don't say "my mother".
Benny: Just saw your post. Before you reply to podcast, please see my post regarding Nikki and her rules, please. It's today at 7:03 a.m.
Blam said: ". Is that "special" like Momma always liked him best special, or "special" like Desmond, Walt, and others are special (if not all in the same way)?"
EXCELLENT observation! I've not seen anyone else bring that up. Of course there is always mommy's favorite 'Special' kind of "Special" even when the brat ain't so Special. Then there's Walt, Locke (?), Desmond, seems I'm missing somebody else who is supposed to be Special. But good pick-up. I hadn't separated the two, and they are different!
@Benny said: "@Gracie: RE: Bottle.
They are wondering if it really is important or more symbolic. Could the 'ceremony' be done using the water from the cave? Just do the incantation on that.
What I got from this part was that she did the incantation and then it was imperative that he drink. NOW! Drink! So he did. Maybe it can be from any container using the water from the cave that everyone thought was wine (and might have been), but I think the important thing was that the person has to drink very soon following the incantation.
Benny said: "RE: evil incarnate.
I think I approached that a few weeks ago. An idea I put forward was that, because MiB/Smokey has taken the embodiment of a candidate, his hold on others is not as strong."
DANG BENNY! Good one! I did not see this earlier mention so this is the first I've heard of this. It seems highly likely that if he chooses to "hold" the body of one of Jacob's chosen few, there would be a price. Maybe?
Back to Bram: We've seen Smokey take over a body; John Locke. He sort of sucks all the info from their brains, and uses the actual body as a mirror to know how to precisely form itself. We've seen it scan minds of others that it chose not to use or kill, Eko. We've seen it allow people time to scream before it killed; Rousseau's team, Keamy's men. The body of MIB was laid down and never rose again, but I think upon death, it was copied into the mind (?) of the Smoke Monster. And although dead (MIB), I believe that his mind while copied, is still around and he knows what's up. I'm not sure yet on this one, and I've been arguing nonstop on it since I saw it. But the man himself in his body, we know cannot still be alive. The body is bones. But the mind? Methinks that's the fate worse than death part. He's mentally around, somewhere, everywhere. I'm not sure how that works, but MIB knows what's going on after all this time "dead". I'm doing it again, Benny!
I'm off-line for a while but will be back!
Fred said: "....However, to tamper with it might lead to unforeseen reprecussions. That's what Ben said about the Dharma Initiative. Locke saw in the video tape that the DI was using the energy to time travel, to which Ben disparaged their efforts, as if the DI missed the boat on what was really important. "
From this I've got a train of thougth I'd like to share, but be warned it's trying to derail: Depending on who you are, where you came from OR how you got your information, the light/source could be considered different things. Right? Fred said Ben thought D.I. wanted it for time travel, and I agree. Fred goes on to say that Ben thought that was small potatoes compared to what it COULD be. So island people have differing information than D.I. people. What did the Army think it could do, I wonder? If the U.S. Army thought it was anything at all, why did they leave it? That just sounds ridiculous. Why didn't the Army fight for it if it's so great especially if "everybody has some and everybody wants a little more"? I do seem to remember something about some of the Army (?) ending up dead, but certainly NOT everyone who knew why they were there! Also, when the D.I. needed to rethink and regroup, then went to somewhere in Ann Arbor, MI. Does that mean anything to anyone? Then the Hostiles? I'm not sure where to put Richard and the Other Hostiles in the context of time as I know Richard has been there for a very long time, and he and Jacob actually DID talk. Isn't it safe to assume that Richard had some idea of what was special about the island even if he wasn't aware of it? Jacob must've told him something! But that wouldn't necessarily be what the Army was looking for, would it? Does anybody see where I'm going here? It's like one thing that can be (and was) perceived by each party as something different with the island people (including Richard, Widmore, Ellie and Ben) probably having the closest idea to what it actually was. Thinking back and trying to remember that exact episode Fred is talking about and Ben's behavior, doesn't it appear that Ben had a pretty good idea of what he was talking about? He certainly knew about the FDW and knew it did work. Did he know how it worked? MIB said he was building a system using light and water that would help him leave. The FDW hadn't been built in yet, but we know what it can do. I wonder if Ben is pulling a con currenly? Could he know what all the fuss is about, and he's not telling? Like maybe he hopes Jack and the rest will help him get rid of all of these outsiders once and for all, so just play stupid until it's all over? He's the one that killed Locke and brought him back in the box. There's something here, I think, but I cannot connect it up and around right now. Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks.
Gracie wrote: Everyone, it seems has their own theory regarding Lost. Ok, so take your theory for just one second and set it aside. Within the first ten or fifteen minutes of Lost: Season Six, the writers wanted us to know that this island is underwater. They showed it to us. Everything as we last saw it, just now under the sea. Now can anyone pick back up their theory and apply it to an island that we know is underwater?
Anyone?
Excellent point.
I am not as thorough in my research as most of you, so bear with me if this idea/theory is made implausible by other details, and let me know why.
I had initially thought earlier in this season, due to the underwater scenes and Miles telling Sawyer that dead Juliete's last thoughts/words were "It worked," that the explosion she detonated in the well somehow sunk the island. And in so doing rendered the sideways flashes the new [alternate]reality. With the past several episodes bringing more of those sideways characters together it seems less likely. I was thinking earlier in the season of the sideways realities as being happier or more positive for the characters. It seemed that way at first when the focus was on Jack and his son. But later episodes seem to debunk my belief in that.
Now it occurs to me as all the characters and threads are being woven together like the tapestry on Jacob's & his Mother's loom, weaving a bigger picture but I'm not sure how it will all turn out!
E.B. Said: "Excellent point.
I am not as thorough in my research as most of you, so bear with me if this idea/theory is made implausible by other details, and let me know why.
I had initially thought earlier in this season, due to the underwater scenes and Miles telling Sawyer that dead Juliete's last thoughts/words were "It worked," that the explosion she detonated in the well somehow sunk the island. And in so doing rendered the sideways flashes the new [alternate]reality. With the past several episodes bringing more of those sideways characters together it seems less likely. I was thinking earlier in the season of the sideways realities as being happier or more positive for the characters. It seemed that way at first when the focus was on Jack and his son. But later episodes seem to debunk my belief in that.
Now it occurs to me as all the characters and threads are being woven together like the tapestry on Jacob's & his Mother's loom, weaving a bigger picture but I'm not sure how it will all turn out!"
First of all, thank you for the commendation on my idea. Secondly, it appears that I'm the only one here right now, and I have the least amount of knowledge on how time travel actually works. It does appear that the bomb went off, sunk the island slowly, and Juliet did say, "It worked." I can see all of that with you. I can also the plane continue its flight path overhead because there was never a button to push, Desmond is not here, and the flight goes accordingly. Although I have some very strong ideas on what we've seen in the sideways world, and so far they are working, I don't have the time travel knowledge to connect them in any way. And I believe in one part of my soul that the plane has to crash to bring Jacob his Candidates, which I'm coming to in my next post. I'm completely Lost there. I can do Place A or Place B but do not know how to do both. Others here do! They've successfully avoided answering this question so far.
You said: "Now it occurs to me as all the characters and threads are being woven together like the tapestry on Jacob's & his Mother's loom, weaving a bigger picture but I'm not sure how it will all turn out!"
That is a really apt way to put this, as they are weaving a bigger picture, but I don't lie. I cannot connect the dots for you without significantly more knowledge than I have, and you'll have to turn to someone else who can. Sorry. Wish I could.
@Gracie: RE: Army
I think the Army had no knowledge of the properties of the island. Given that Jughead was part of Castle Bravo testings, I think they just randomly happened on the island to test this device but given the high risks associated with detonating the island, they were killed and no one was able to trace them.
It's also possible that people from the army lead to establishing the DI. Unfortunately, we are never given any information on the circumstances regarding the Army's presence on the island.
Thanks Benny, I needed that information!
BTW: Way back in my notes from Tuesday night on my laptop, I just found this: Did anyone else happen to notice how when Jacob jumped on BIB to beat him up, how Locke-like the kid landed on his back? That was pretty awesome to see. When he says "One day I can prove it" about leaving the island, he sounds so very much like Locke saying "Don't tell me what I can't do!" It sounds very forboding. (And this has been in a my Draft Folder since then. Lot of good it does there.) With the additional comments posted here, I'm beginning to think MIB and Locke were destined to meet long before Locke was ever born and that shaped the obstinate person he became.
I'll just throw this out there as a weird idea to which I don't really subscribe: Claudia and Momma were both surprised when the second child came. Now this is most likely due to the lack of clinical care in Claudia's life and Momma's own unfamiliarity with midwifing, but she seemed to have no hint of Esau being in there as Jacob was being delivered. Nurse Brian could tell us how plausible that is from a non-TV standpoint, but... What if Esau wasn't there until the Island manifested him following Jacob's birth?
Me: And that, folks, is why actors usually put on generic vaguely English accents if they're from another time and place, supposedly speaking another language. Your good old American voices, especially from the mouths of babes, sound weak and whiny.
Gracie: I wanted to ask you ages ago where you hail from, and this reminded me. Dear where are you from? Please don't say "my mother".
Born in Philadelphia, raised in South Jersey and the Philly suburbs... I don't possess a particularly egregious "Philadelphia O" but I do pronounce "water" as "wooder".
VW: intiou — Family name of every gal's least favorite dude: Heezjus Notdat Intiou.
Me: That line always struck me as weird — "older than Jesus Christ"... He (as a person or concept) is not that old compared to the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenicians...
Teebore: I also took it to be a point of reference Locke was using for a young Walt. Locke probably made a reasonably assumption that Walt was familiar with Jesus, and further assumed Jesus was probably one of the oldest things a kid knew offhand. So he was basically saying "this game is old, older than the oldest thing you're familiar with" and Locke just assumed Jesus was the oldest thing with which Walt was familiar.
Yeah, I got that, which is why I also framed my comparison above with "Western" references. Of course, they're Mediterranean and what we now call Middle Eastern, but they're "the cradle of Western civilization" as opposed to Africa and the Far East. I wouldn't expect Locke to say that Backgammon dates from not long after Amaterasu no o-mi-kami created the archipelago of Japan, but he could've gone with "as old as the Romans, the Greeks, even the Egyptians" (hinting at Island relics to come in the bargain).
From Wikipedia (named after one of Pierre Chang's aliases, y'know): "The history of Backgammon goes back approximately 5,000 years. Board games have existed for millennia in Ancient Egypt and Southwest Asia. The ancient Egyptian game senet was excavated, along with illustrations, from ancient Egyptian royal tombs. The Royal Game of Ur, played in ancient Mesopotamia, may also be an ancestor of modern day table games."
VW: defiblex — How to stop Luthor's heart arrhythmia.
Oh yes, I am this far behind...
Kiki: there is a lot of talk of immortality, but it seems that these characters are mortal since they die.
AchingHope: I'm not positive, but I think being immortal means you can live forever as long as no one kills you. So they could be immortal, they'll just stop once someone kills them. I know that's how it worked for Tolkien's Elves, and I think that's how it worked for Greek gods, but I'm just guessing.
I've heard the word used both ways, but definitely seen "immortal" refer to "unaging but not necessarily invulnerable from harm and death by outside action".
AchingHope: And did anyone else think it was gross when psycho-mum was rubbing that stuff on her leg?
I think it was an old-school depilatory, self-waxing with clay or somesuch, which is the kind of detail you don't usually get in period stories. While impressed, I had to wonder if we'd even seen her in short enough skirts that would make such a scene "necessary" and whether with no menfolk around she even cared that much about hair on her legs. Did anyone see it differently?
AchingHope: I have friends who need the flashbacks for something that long ago. I know, I know. We have to love them anyway.
Ha!
VW: yistable — Where yikeep yihorses.
I had just typed that to me the main evidence why MIB, for all intents and purposes, is Smokey (and vice versa) is that Momma said Jacob can't kill MIB... when the following came up:
Teebore: I'm thinking Smokey IS MiB, because Mother said Jacob and MiB couldn't harm one another. If Jacob throwing MiB into the light caused him to be killed by Smokey, then that would violate the protection Mother gave them from each other. Instead, I think, the light took MiB's humanity, transforming him into Smokey, leaving behind his human "shell" in the process.
And Benny with his Occam's Razor argument followed, but, again, even if Smokey was a pre-existing condition within the Cave o' Light, MIB had to at least have been absorbed by him/it for his experience not to have counted as death. Even if you argue that Jacob didn't murder him, just rough him up and dump him into the stream, the light couldn't have killed him either if Momma's words about the experience being not death but worse than it were true.
VW: bustort — Legally actionable incident on public transportation.
@Blam: There's also a line this season that Locke says (to Sawyer I think? maybe Ben?) about how he used to be a man, before he was the smoke monster...
Fred said: "So perhaps Jacob made up his own game, set his own rules, and the end point of the game is MiB can go home if he wins. But it's likely Jacob set up the game in such a way he would always win. At the same time, the game is designed to find Jacob's replacement......"
Fred, I can do some serious traveling with this information. I believe everything you said there is correct except when this new round of this game started, Jacob was unable to foresee, or just didn't think it was important, that MIB would get further in this round than he ever had before. So Jacob overshot his game play because he believed it was always his to win. He had set it up that way. In his naivete, he didn't know about the possibility of a loophole coming at him from left field, but MIB was doing his homework. He wants to win and is determined to do so! As the game progressed onward, I believe that Jacob began to suspect there could be trouble and went for Ilana, and in some cases, maybe all of them, laid an extra touch to his Candidates to make sure they did not miss this flight! He began to see that MIB had maneuvered a wildcard, and may be able to achieve his loophole. He started to know that he needed his Candidates here NOW, but he couldn't do anything but wait for the game to play out to a certain point where he might be able to find a loophole of his own. He didn't really think he needed to worry about Ben. Ben had been his for years. But he'd abused Ben by always ignoring him, and he also didn't realize that Ben was feeling pressure from the same source which would later be offered up to MIB/Smokey as a means to take out Jacob within the game. For Jacob, he was just running out of time. He had his Candidates and he knew who his Replacement was, but the Replacement doesn't know it, and neither do the other Candidates. He learned that at Mom's knee. MIB does not know which one it is, but he does know that he's further and further along. Jacob also knows why Widmore is coming. Whether he's coming to further the cause, or completely derail it, Jacob already knows his true purpose, and will use him where he can either way. Jacob also has to have opportunity with his Replacement to pass off the power with the incantation and the drink.
Then Ben takes FLocke to meet Jacob, and Ben ends up killing him, and FLocke shoves his remains into the fire to leave no doubt that he is dead and MIB doesn't care. MIB knows he's never been this far. Now all he has left are the Replacements. (Jake and the Replacements - good name for a rock band!) MIB has to chose his openings with extreme care because he knows that they suspect him. But he doesn't know that Jacob had already found a loophole of his own with Hurley! Hurley can see him and hear him! Jacob has to use Hurley to carefully guide the others towards where he needs them to be, when he needs them to be there, without MIB falling suspicious as to how they are getting their information. Jacob doesn't like to interfere anyway, and he won't unless he sees the whole game going down the tubes, or if his Replacement is in imminent danger. He can tell Hurley what Hurley needs to know, and rest assured that Hurley will guide them in the right direction even though Hurley doesn't know why he's doing that. Also, in the event of an unforeseen incident (?) Hurley can recite the incantation for the Replacement, assuming it's not Hurley himself, and offer up the drink. Sadly, I truly believe that Jacob is going to lose his Replacement anyway, and that is part of the reason they showed this episode so late in the game. You needed to know and remember that The Original Chosen One, as selected by Mom, didn't make it to the finals, and was eliminated because he couldn't stay true to the island/light/source. The same thing will happen with Jack, Jacob's Chosen One. If they hadn't done everything to spell this out short of actually writing his name on my TV screen, I might not feel this way, but Jack is so insanely obvious, that life is about to get in the way. Now, to me, it's so obvious that at the last minute Jacob will have to throw a hail Mary pass to another Candidate who can catch the damn thing, win the game, and save the "source" while again assuring that MIB never wins, or he/she can drop it, stand there like an idiot, and watch while everything literally is Lost, and life fades out. That person (my Candidate) is going to catch the ball, defeat MIB, win the game, and save the source while saving the world, thereby keeping "hope" alive. The "hope" that MIB has been playing with for so long is certainly gone. Yes, at one time all of 815 were just pawns for both of these boys playing a deadly game to while away the hours on this island. Now the candidates from 815 will become heroes to the game. Or I can be wrong again, and if that's the case I hope somebody else has a good story!
Blam said: "I'll just throw this out there as a weird idea to which I don't really subscribe: Claudia and Momma were both surprised when the second child came. Now this is most likely due to the lack of clinical care in Claudia's life and Momma's own unfamiliarity with midwifing, but she seemed to have no hint of Esau being in there as Jacob was being delivered. Nurse Brian could tell us how plausible that is from a non-TV standpoint, but... What if Esau wasn't there until the Island manifested him following Jacob's birth?"
Why don't you subscribe to this Dear? Honey, in the U.S. of A, in 1968, read that date carefully, my mother carried twins for over eight and a half months that nobody knew about, most especially my mother. When they were born, if she hadn't been unconcious, I honestly believe that she'd have killed her doctor (who had nothing at all to do with conception.) She said so many, many times in the years that followed. Today, those twins are still among us, but honestly, I don't know how (or sometimes why), and, no, I'm not one of them. So, if my Mama didn't know it in 1968, and her doctor never had a clue, I have no trouble with Claudia and mid-wife Mom not knowing either! Falls under "Sh*t Happens", I think. This has nothing at all to do with clinical care either. Ask Nurse Brian. He will know.
(Not that there was much Mom could have done about it in 1968, but I can guarantee you that had she known, my father would have been a very unhappy man during those months. I should say more unhappy than was the norm.)
And from the looks on their faces during the episode, I never thought that either of them expected this. The midwife Mom at one point almost looked horrified. Your finally thought up there made me catch my breath, but the direction I'm heading with what Smokey/MIB was/is able to do, I'll buy that as a theory!
Blam: Based on some of the things you've said, I would have guessed you as British. Now everyone is going to laugh at me, but remember I haven't known you as long as they have. I am, of course, still right next door in the State of Confusion, otherwise known as Ohio.
Blam said: "Amaterasu no o-mi-kami"
God Bless you!
And, honestly, you people and your History! Benny spit out Senet so fast I just assumed he was guessing. Ahem! He was not. Snap!
humanebean said...
I'm going with the theory that the boys never discovered the Statue because the writers didn't tell 'em to.
; ]
Haha!!! That really is the answer to so many of our questions about the actions of the characters!!
Blam said: "AchingHope: I'm not positive, but I think being immortal means you can live forever as long as no one kills you."
Blam: I've heard the word used both ways, but definitely seen "immortal" refer to "unaging but not necessarily invulnerable from harm and death by outside action"."
And I looked it up. Check this out. "Immortal \Im*mor"tal\, n. One who will never cease to be; one exempt from death, decay, or annihilation. --Bunyan. [1913 Webster] Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48
It says exempt from decay too!!! Sweet!! That fits with this place! So in fact MIB could still be using the body of .......
MIB! OMG! That is beyond a disgusting thought!
Blam and Teebore: "Teebore: I'm thinking Smokey IS MiB, because Mother said Jacob and MiB couldn't harm one another. If Jacob throwing MiB into the light caused him to be killed by Smokey, then that would violate the protection Mother gave them from each other. Instead, I think, the light took MiB's humanity, transforming him into Smokey, leaving behind his human "shell" in the process."
I don't actually believe this myself anymore, if I ever did, but I'll put it back in the pot: the flip side of this argument is and I DID say some time ago, that there is no way to tell what you can believe about anything she said unless you tried it and found it true or not true. It's like believing that she told them that in the hope they would believe it, but she has no follow through with it at all. (I don't mean to be unkind, but if this woman told me the sky was blue, I'd have to get up and go check for myself.) The proof of this argument is that she actually said, "You cannot hurt one another," and then I think everyone saw Jacob trying to rearrange MIB's face. I already posted that Jacob is NOT tickling him here! So, maybe she's a big fibber, and Jacob just went too far? He didn't know, or so he said, what death was.
On the other part of your answer? I think that everything INSIDE of you which makes you you including your knowledge, your humanity, your strengths, your ego, your fears, your weaknesses, your soul, your heart (as in ability TO love), your empathy, everything about you that cannot be seen, but makes you so undeniably you, is what Smokey took when it did, in fact, kill MIB. And since MIB doesn't decay, he can still use the body as needed. (gag!)
If you ask me this same thing in ten minutes, I'll have a different answer because it's an ongoing argument: my opinion vs. my opinion. At least I'm winning!
Really, we have two bodies that are dead. But Jacob is still mentally trolling, or his "self" is, and I believe that MIB is suffering that fate he was promised. He knows what has become of him since he died. He can't do a damn thing about it either.
Blam said: "And Benny with his Occam's Razor argument followed, but, again, even if Smokey was a pre-existing condition within the Cave o' Light, MIB had to at least have been absorbed by him/it for his experience not to have counted as death. Even if you argue that Jacob didn't murder him, just rough him up and dump him into the stream, the light couldn't have killed him either if Momma's words about the experience being not death but worse than it were true."
A perfect example of a fate worse than death is trying to mentally wrap your head around Benny's idea of Occam's razor. :o) Love you too, Benny!
Just try to look that up on the Internet and understand what you're reading! Benny is educated way beyond the norm if you ask me! OR he has way too much time on his hands!
You leave the internet for a couple of days... and THIS happens?! 380+ comments?! Hachi-machi!
Was taking a break from studying for finals and saw how much the comments piled up!
I KNOW, I know! I'm just a lowly college student!
@Gracie and Blam: I'll catch up on your comments as soon as I can! Gimme a few minutes!
@Marebabe: Oh, you are so right, and I wanted to mention that back Tuesday night!
There is no reason for anyone to have not noticed the music for this particular show. It was astounding! At times it was gut-wrenching, and other times it was almost giddy. Go back and watch it again with the Mute on.
Fred said: "@Gracie:Nikki asked how the FDW ended up frozen. I wanted to know what happened to the bright light. What caused this, when did it dim or go out? From what mom said, how can that be anything good?"
Did anyone ever answer Nikki's original quesion? Now that I think on that more, doesn't that forecast an ill chill? Why would the FDW be frozen?
RE: Twins – I would believe it’s PLAUSIBLE that someone wouldn’t know they we’re pregnant with twins. I’ll preface the following by how much has changed in medical knowledge in just the last couple of decades.
There are a couple of reasons I’d let Ghost Mom and Primordial-Rousseau not know. First of all, twins aren’t common, fraternal OR identical. Sure you know you got something baking in the oven, but there isn’t exactly a window into the uterus. So I wouldn’t be surprised if a mother didn’t know.
Am I trying to knock maternal instinct? Not at all, but remember, there are cases about women who don’t even realize they’re pregnant! Heck, isn’t there a TV based on this fact?!
(“But Nurse Brian, what about fetal kicks?” More on this below…)
Second, medical techniques have changed so much. Ghost Mom and Bonkers-Other didn’t have Doc Goodspeed with a trusty ultrasound at their cave-side. And I don’t think the Leopold’s technique was invented yet if I’m correct (for the uninitiated, that’s when the physician or nurse feels your tummy to find out what position your baby is. But even that can’t really diagnose a pregnant woman with twins.)
Ultrasounds are a fairly big luxury in small clinical settings (the DECENT ones anyway). And as far as I know from my obstetrics course, it’s the only accurate way to diagnose multiple gestation (there are other high tech imagers, but let’s not get into that). Medical rule of thumb (I believe) is that if you can’t visually confirm two fetuses, you’re in no way gonna diagnose that mom has twins (although with the way Octomom’s belly was distended with her EIGHT kids, you have to at the least reconsider. Eek.).
Scientifically speaking, I’d say it was possible that Claudia didn’t know she was carrying twins. But Blam’s theory about Essau/Baby-in-Black/Nameless Baby manifesting after the birth of Jacob carries an interesting concept. EQUALS AND OPPOSITES.
Allusion Time!
Having said that, let’s entertain the idea of fellow blogger and one of the “Army of Brians”, Blam. Blam, if I may run with this, and allude to The Matrix trilogy (not the GREATEST trilogy, but stick with me here)? The idea in the trilogy was this: In the creation of Neo, there was an unbalance. In order to “balance the equation” the counter-weight known as Agent Smith was created to oppose Neo. Given, when Neo was eliminated, so was Smith in order to “balance the equation”, and so far this hasn’t held true between MIB and Jacob. But could MIB be Jacob’s counterweight?
Or have these two been manipulated to act in such a way by Mommie-dearest? Was her ploy to con two kids into playing live-action Senet with our castaways? We might not find out considering the time we have left, but goodness, the speculation is INTRIGUING.
...and I’ll leave it at that, as hackneyed it might be. I’ll probably catch you guys again this Thursday. Finals are approaching and I’ve so much studying to do for my exams on Tuesday and Thursday. So here I go again and I shall catch you fellow bloggers in a couple of days! Excelsior!
Mother: Because a little bit of this very same light is inside of every man. But they always want more.
MIB: I spent 30 years searching for that place you brought me as a child--that...waterfall with the beautiful light. I've walked this island from end to end, not once coming close to finding it. But then I began to think-what if the light underneath the island--what if I could get to it from someplace else? Figuring out how to reach it took a very long time.
Thats' a signpost up ahead: your next stop: Allegory Land
Claudia: May I see him?
Could Jacob and MIB be one and the same?
Coming back at you Nurse Brian: I think you may turn out to be one of my best witnesses because I'm sure you know or have some knowledge about what happens in medicine right before something makes a major change? There's like a hang time from before it changes for a year or two (or five?) after. So I'm not going to Google anything or look up any dates, just go from memory. (Let's allow that I was 8-year-old in 1968, though, okay?)
As I remember it, there was no abortion, and before it was, it really wasn't! It was illegal, and like all good doctors, no respectable OB-GYN would even discuss this idea with you. (It was rarely even talked about in the home.) Even when it was legal, you had to find a doctor that would do it. It was a "man's world", where nobody cared if this was your fifth child or your fifteenth. You carried them and kept your mouth shut. If you had a job outside the home, you went to work until just before you delivered. Women were screaming for equal rights, and in this area, men were happy to let them have it. Women delivered babies since the beginning of time, and you were no different than any of them. There was no ultrasound, and going by when I was pregnant, which was 20 years ago this year, amniocentesis wasn't fully developed yet either. When Mom was pregnant, as she told her daughters years later, the doctor listen to heartbeats. There should be two. Mom's and the baby's. If doctor is hearing more than two, you're having twins, or very rarely, triplets. There was never any indication to the doctor that my Mom was carrying more than one child. You could also feel the abdomen, and do measurements, but I'm not fully versed on what that was all about when Mom was pregnant, so I'll abstain. But in those days, twins were rare, and the idea, of more than two at once, would send some women into "vapors". In 1968, if you were unfortunate enough to have twins, Gerber didn't call you and offer free food for a year. You paid for everything out of pocket. Right before the twins' left diapers, it seems, the first disposables were introduced. Somehow I knew about them. For women things were getting ready to make a huge swing, but it hadn't happened yet and until it did, just go with the flow. When each of the daughters got pregnant many years later, Mom said it was like a whole new world. She had one of the best, if not the best doctor in the area, but the floor of the doctors offices were scuffed and dirty. She had no idea you could get that kind of shine from the floor of a doctor's office with all it's use. The first doctors office I ever remember going into was dark, appeared dirty (I know it was clean), and very quiet. And Mom was ahead of the game for the time. Except for my father, her father, and her boss, there was no man out there who was in position to tell her what she should do. And of the three remaining, she seldom listened to them! She was moving way ahead of her generation, and a lot of people didn't know what to do with her. She was hip and cool. They were still getting their hair done once a week. This is 1968 in Akron Ohio, which is (or was) bigger than Canton (where the football hall of fame is) but smaller than Cleveland or Columbus. We weren't hick by any definition. And, God knows, if you had all girls, it was the woman's fault! (HAHA) Now, we know differently. Overall, 1968 was heading towards a changing time for women and their pregnancies. And because times were changing, but hadn't changed, it was almost like the dark ages when you were pregnant. When Mom had twins, people knew so little about biology and reproduction, they thought that meant she had a lot of sex to develop two babies, and people actually treated her in some parts of town as though she were a slut. It wasn't a real good time to be pregnant and have twins and that's all what I do remember. Imagine what I don't remember!
Fred said: "............Ethan has his own agenda, much like Mother did. Would he have taken Aaron and killed Claire? Seems that was the way things were heading."
Fred: I've noticed in sort of an off hand way for the past month or two, that everyone seems to have their own agenda, but it's either very blunt, or almost like a whisper. I wondered if it was me, but Spouse noticed it. Kind of like in the midst of all the insanity, everyone is looking out for #1 and whatever plan is theirs. It's either as plain as your face, or very quiet, but it's there for all of them. (Or almost all.)
Kiki said: "One thing I'm wondering about is when "mother" told Jacob she had been wrong about who was suppose to protect the source and island. I'm wondering if we are being led in one direction only to find out that we were "wrong" too and that the candidate who suceeds is not the most "logical"."
Yes, you are being hand fed the complete turnaround of Jack, making him perfect to be the next Replacement, which to me, means it's not him. And part of this story tells you not to do that, because that's what she did. She chose her successor, basically put all her eggs in one basket, and he didn't want anything to do with it OR HER when the time came. Jacob saw firsthand her mistakes, and I believe he learned from them. He has his successor, but he's not telling anyone. He thinks it should all just fall together, and it should, except I think there's going to be another last minute change up. IMHO.
I wonder if all of these RULES were ever written down somewhere. Maybe that's the Book of Laws that young Locke didn't choose when Richard came to his house.
@Gracie: I was dropping by just to add one last thing and saw that you already responded!
Yes, I totally support this. Most "new" procedures aren't implemented right away until it is more supported by research.
I the thing I was going to add? Fetal heart sounds! I totally forgot about this when I was furiously typing up my prior comment. Doctors would listen with their stethascopes, and later on, they would use the fetal heart doppler (think like a stethoscope, but electronically powered). As good as those were at the time (they WERE top of the line at some point, you can't deny that), I'd say there is still margin of error when diagnosing a multigestation. Say a doctor misses a spot on Mom's tummy, THE spot in her uterus where the other twin's heart tones can be heard? I'm not saying good old fashion listening is all for naught; it's a good start! If anything, listening (or auscultating for you other medical savvy bloggers out there) with our stethascopes are good markers before we bring out the big guns, namely the ultrasound machine. I don't think anyone would like a doctor/nurse practitioner to charge you for using such an expensive machine without a decent reason!
Furthermore, I don't think it'd be legally sound for a doctor/nurse practitioner to simply diagnose a multiple gestation simply by hearing more than one heartbeat in a mother's uterus. For all we know, that second heartbeat could be from the mother! From a legal standpoint, I'd say it may be possible to sue!
"You said I was having twins and we bought all these clothes and baby items TWICE over... for what? One kid?! Because you heard little Johnny's heartbeat and MINE, which you mistook for a second baby?"
All in all, visual confirmation is your safer bet, but listening is still good if you're trying to save a patient some money and support a "hunch"!
And lets hope that old town of yours got wiser regarding reproduction after all these years!
WV: pring - how phones would sound if they were just getting out of the shower
Gracie: Why don't you subscribe to this Dear?
I think you misunderstood my emphasis, which is my own fault. The "weird idea to which I don't really subscribe" isn't the first part, "Claudia and Momma were both surprised when the second child came," but the last, "What if Esau wasn't there until the Island manifested him following Jacob's birth?" Apologies for not being clear... I've only glanced through your full reply and Nurse Brian's, so I'll respond more later if necessary and when possible, but to me it's totally feasible given the times and the circumstances that neither Claudia nor Momma knew there'd be twins, and clearly they did not.
Nurse Brian: Sure you know you got something baking in the oven, but there isn’t exactly a window into the uterus.
I prefer the phrase "a womb with a view". Now take care of yourself and kick butt on those finals!
Marebabe: Since I learned the hard way how frequently [vanishing posts] can happen with Blogger, I now compose whatever I want to say in Word, and then cut and paste the entire text into the comment field.
I use TextEdit, not Word, but otherwise concur. This advance composition is also necessary in my case because it can take me a while to form my thoughts and because I might not be able to get online even when I can focus enough to write, so I need a place to paste others' comments for me to later comment upon or let half-written replies sit until I can complete them.
VW: holookal — Pointing out a lady of ill repute to Vice President Gore.
Kiki said: "I'm thinking Hurley is the most Jacob-esque after this episode. Good, kind, looking for the best in people, and maybe a little naive to the "true" nature of man."
I think that if Jacob asked Hurley to take the job, and explains it's importance, Hurley would do that. I also think that's true of everyone in the present situation except Charles Widmore. (I don't really believe he would get the offer, though, because I think he has ulterior motives that are contrary to Jacob's ideal for the island.) He would want it so he could abuse it, but Jacob wouldn't make the offer. All of the rest of them including Richard who is so tired of the island, to Miles, who isn't qualified, to Kate would do it if they knew the significance of "why"? That's how and why I think this will come back around again. Nobody would do it without understanding what was to gain and lose. And they would have to know the requirements in full. I believe that over that incantation and sip from the cup, Jacob was given more information than was shown by Mom. Then there is a certain amount of power and understanding that simply passes from the incantation and drink from the current leader to the rightful successor. All would do it.
But that's still a different thing from who could do it. And here you lose half the list. Hurley, for example, would want to, but Jacob would see that although he is sincere, Hurley would be greatly pained to do to others what was done to him in order to find a replacement, and Jacob would face leaving him with the task to do as he could, or turning him down because he knows Hurley doesn't have the follow through. Too much heart. He would have to move on to another candidate until he found one willing that also met the requirements the island demands.
When he finds one that will, and he agrees that they are qualified, that person is the new Jacob.
@Blam: a womb with a view
priceless! good movie too ;)
TextEdit - ditto!
@S Penguin:
Your post is truly excellent; very insightful. I' too' enjoy the fact that the writers set MiB up as such a bad guy in the last episode and turn him into a sympathetic character in this one. That was a very nice move indeed, and so, so typical of Lost!
I also enjoy the fact that the Powers That Be on the island don't know the answers, either...I have long suspected that The Powers That Be in the world that we all inhabit don't have the first clue about a lot of things...as in life, so in art. Or the other way around...
There are answers that I would really like to know. But I can live with a lot of things remaining a mystery, too - and would probably prefer it that way. Tell all, and the island loses much of its magic, and thus much of its appeal. How much fun would it be, really, to re-watch the series in years to come if there is nothing more to speculate and wonder about? Leaving unanswered questions leaves our minds open to discovering answers of our own, answers that might evolve over time.
And such questions also leave the island as a potential source of a limitless number of stories in the future...too many answers limit the future possibilities. Stories based on the island might end up becoming available in all kinds of media, and some may never be told except within a small circle of friends. But nothing that gives rise to so much potential can ever be a bad thing - even if some fans are left frustrated at not being told everything.
VW: Deoux - twin gods. Clearly does not apply to Jacob and MiB.
Dating "Across the Sea"
Claudia and "Mother" converse in Latin until the writer's universal translator kicks in. MIB possesses a dagger (which later becomes Dogen's dagger) after living with Claudia's people for 30years. The dagger has an emblem of a she-wolf that would seem to indicate a Roman dagger post Romulus and Remus (700 B.C.) Egypt became a Roman province post Antony and Cleo around 30 B.C. and might help to explain Tawaret and BIB's senet game. So was the "Island" (or a wormhole entrance) in the Mediterranean at that time?
Do we know where the dagger is now. It seems to have found its way from Rome into the MIB's hands and then into and out of "Mother's" (I think I am tired of being a smoke monster myself...I am absolutely asking for it) back. You would assume that Jacob disarmed MIB before beating him up and throwing him over the waterfalls and into the "light". Then it reappears in the possession of 19th Century "Smokie"/as MIB to give to Ricardo so as to run through Jacob. But Jacob disarms Ricardo and the next time we see the dagger, Jacob's stooge Dogen gives it to Sayid at the temple so he can run through "Smokie". Thats a bust, but Sayid gets to use it to slit Dogen's mouth piece's throat after giving Dogen the ultimate swirly. So where is the dagger now? Sayid didn't seem to be sporting it when he C-foured himself on the sub. Might somebody need it for the finale?
Also wonder who has been moving the skeletons around between "House of the Rising Sun", "Lighthouse" and "Across the Sea"?
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