Friday, February 05, 2010

Richard in Chains

Wow... until now that title only belonged to some illicit fan fiction I'd written...

Not-Locke says to Alpert that he almost didn’t recognize him in the chains. We could take this literally – Alpert was a slave on the Black Rock, and the Man in Black was the slavemaster… or another slave… or Alpert was the slavemaster and the Man in Black was the slave and he overpowered Alpert, etc. – or it could be metaphorical. Maybe he’s been enslaved to Jacob all this time, and that’s why he’s so passive and laid-back. The moment Jacob was dead, Richard went all badass on everyone, grabbing Ben by the nape of the neck and shoving his face down into the sand, or showing major emotion on the beach when he realized what had happened? Is it possible Jacob made Alpert “this way,” meaning the passive, quiet servant that he’s always been on the island? And now that he’s breaking out of that, he can finally be, well, AWESOME?!

(And seriously, I saw this screen-cap of Alpert looking at Not-Locke and all I could think of was, “Don’t it make my brown eyes blue…” What is Crystal Gayle doing infiltrating my thoughts?!)

68 comments:

Gillian Whitfield said...

My theory is that Richard was a slave on the Black Rock (at first I thought he was captain or first mate), and when the Black Rock reached the island, Man In Black found Richard in the wreckage, and was going to choke him to death with the chains that Richard was in, then Jacob found Man in Black almost killing Richard, and took pity on Richard and saved him from Man in Black and gave him immortality.

Jo Thornley said...

Ooh, I like the metaphorical thing! That would account for Richard's random personality change, besides which it would just be really cool.

ODM said...

When the smoke monster appears, don't we always hear a sound much like "chains" pulling a roller coaster car?

Perhaps Richard and Man-in-Locke had a Black Rock time period battle whereby Richard escaped his imprisonment as Smokey, only to enslave the Man-in-Locke.

And Jacob helped Richard to do it. "I can only assume Jacob made me the way I am."

And didn't James Ford "choke" Sawyer (John Locke's father) with chains? And at Richard's urging (via Locke)?

Intriguing, no?

humanebean said...

You know, the most intriguing notion that I had seen from at least one commenter on the original premiere post was that perhaps there was some kind of a mutiny on the Black Rock and that by the time that Richard arrived on the Island, he was in chains. I find this concept fascinating.

We've already seen one ship captain at serious odds with his crew as he attempted to keep order on a voyage to the Island - Captain Gault had his hands full trying to keep order on the freighter as things spiraled out of control. I can see Captain Richard Alpert (having been summoned in some fashion by Jacob) single-mindedly searching for a Mysterious Island as his crew grows more and more restless. Perhaps food and water were running low as tempers ran high - finally resulting in a mutiny where Captain Alpert and his ship's officers were clapped in irons by the mutineers.

After the event (Island movement? Ferocious storm? FDW rotation?) that resulted in the Black Rock being stranded high and dry inland, perhaps MIB was the first to visit the ship (having munched on some swashbuckling mutineers first) and saw Richard still in irons belowdecks. Ultimately, though, Jacob saved Richard, bringing him to the Temple and working his Island magic to make him the perpetual GQ model with the J. Crew wardrobe and Maybelline eyes that we have come to know and love.

Alternately, I think of the Latin spoken by the Others and the notion of slavery and wonder if Richard's introduction to the Island goes even further back ... to a time when Rome ruled the seas and and used galley slaves to do it. Ricardus Alpert, anyone?

Benny said...

A white slave? Could Richard be within a different body than his original?

Could we be talking slaves NOT from the black rock? Let's think Roman and Egyptian cultures!

Dave said...

I think that either:
1) Richard was a captain or ranking sailor on the Black Rock and was chained up after a mutiny or

2) He was an indentured servant being transported to Australia. I think this is more likely than him being a slave.

Jenn said...

@Benny

Yes! Agreed. I was leaning toward metaphorical chains at first—but if Jacob is good—which he most likely is, but may not be—then why would he enslave anyone? If Jacob is the light to Man in Black's dark, then it should follow that he would never enslave another.

So, that leaves physical chains. And Richard for sure looks like he could have been a Roman or Egyptian slave. I am especially liking the idea of him being an Egyptian slave, and then somehow coming to the island and getting his Richard-Powers, and the creating the Egyptian looking statue.

@ all:

Am I the only one that's not 100% sure that Jacob is good, and Man in Black is evil? I only wonder if anyone else has an inkling of doubt. (That's what I have—an inkling.) You know, because it's Darlton and Lost and all? And they like to keep it exciting. Because sometimes I also wonder if Ben is bad.
Hmmmmm…

Joan Crawford said...

Wow... until now that title only belonged to some illicit fan fiction I'd written...

Bwahahahaha!

Benny said...

@Jenn: I'm sure you're not the only who's not 100% sure. We can never be.

I consider it the likeliest from the fact that we haven't seen Jacob kill anyone quit significantly. We can only argue that the Others killed but did he order as much?

It's more probable he's good, so I'll think as such until the probabilities change.

Joan Crawford said...

@Jenn - I am positive Jacob is not "good". He may not be evil but he sure as hell gives me the heebeejeebies like no one else on Lost.

Whenever I see him or hear him speak, my reaction is always "Ehhhhh, I dunno there, guy."

My Spidey Senses Point to no!

Joan Crawford said...

Eeee! Right after I posted that - my coffee maker started flipping out and turning itself on and off!

Anonymous said...

Well I did some wikipedia research and say that England's slave trade ended in 1801 and we know from the show that the Black Rock set sail in 1845, so I think if he was in the Black Rock, he was a convict being sent to Australia.

However I think that there is also a chance that he is much older then that.

BTW I loved your idea about passive Richard turning all manhandly happening because Jacob died, but I just think it's because he kind of knew what happened and was feeling a bit emotional, after all if you are a non ageing fellow who has to loved ones die again and againit had to be extra sucky for the only other imortal person to be killed,

Hunter said...

Random Comment- I think we need to start referring to him as the Man in Black Smoke. It's far more descriptive and accurate :-)

Word Verification: Verst - The number before Zecond.

studiorose said...

The Man in Black Smoke! I like it.

What if Richard was a criminal (in chains) and not a slave? What if Richard is EVIL and we've been looking in the wrong direction all along? What if Richard's mild-mannered, slightly-puzzled, gentlemanly, Dockers-wearing, good-guy persona is a big ol' hoax?

Naw, probably not.

However, I'm not convinced Jacob is "good" and the MIB not. Neither are Sun and Lapedus convinced of the shadow seekers' goodness. After all, the MIB was crabbing about how the people Jacob bring to the island always fight and kill and everything ends badly. Doesn't sound like someone who relishes that kind of thing.

Anonymous said...

When the chains were mentioned, the obvious first thought was Black Rock.

But - with all the antiquity being mixed in here, it also made me think about Permetheus.

Ricardus Unbound?

SonshineMusic said...

Ever since the rewatch, I've been wondering if maybe Alpert was the first mate on the Black Rock and the diary that Widmore buys was his. that would be SO cool. And explain why they showed Widmore buying the diary.

@Joan: Eeee! Right after I posted that - my coffee maker started flipping out and turning itself on and off!

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You have angered the Island!

I do like the idea of Richard being even older than that, though. I wonder how the Egyptian mythology ended up there? It had to have been brought by somebody? And the Latin certainly is puzzling.

Jenn said...

@ Joan.

Okay. I agree that Jacob is creepy. But he's also kinda palatable, no?

Creepy palatable guys...I always seem to be drawn to them. Ha!

Vertification word: lessne. The spelling of 'lesson' en français Canadian

EamonnToGetLost said...

Apropos of nothing, at least when it comes to this post. Watched "The Hurt Locker" last night. It was good.

I'm not really spoiling anything here (at least, I don't think so). At one point, Evangeline Lilly pops up in the movie. She's with her young son....in the supermarket. No joke. (Did the script writers NEVER watch Lost?? Did they not know the parallels that any Lost fan would draw, if they saw the movie? Anyway, I digress)...So, on the inside, I was shouting at her, "KEEP AN EYE ON THAT KID!" ;)

Joan Crawford said...

@Sonshine - I know! Haha! Creeper Jacob is displeased!

@Jenn - Hehe, I can see how you find Jacob attractive but I think his face hides too many secrets. Unlike sweet open face of Sayid.

VW: Shano

What I call Shannon as it drives her crazy!

Mark R.Y. said...

I'm holding out on the notion that the Black Rock was brought to and wrecked on the island just as Oceanic 815 will also suffer that fate. In that case, and if Richard was from the BR, is he the equivalent of Jack, Locke or someone else from 815? And will we find out about other parallels between the BR and 815? There's got to be more Black Rock mythos to come!

The Question Mark said...

@Joan Crawford: the MIB has possessed your coffee machine! Quick! Enclose yourself within a protective circle of coffee grinds and watch out for falling debris!!!

I like the idea that Captain Ricardus Alpert was at the helm of the Black Rock. I'd say he discovered the Island and wanted to explore it, but his greedy first mate (let's go with Abbadon on this one; hence Widmore buying his journal) wanted to claim the Island for himself. Mutiny ensued, Richard ended up in chains, and Abbadon took control.
Jacob learned of this after the ship made port, and took pity on Richard, but not before The Artist Formerly Known As Jacob's Nemesis encountered him somehow.

Whether I'm dead-on or waaaaaaay off (my moolah's on the latter) let's hope we get more of Richard & the Black Rock real soon!

Paul Escobar said...

I'd like to connect Richard's altercation with Smokey-Locke...back to Sayid.

As I said in the Sayid topic, the closest thing to Sayid's recovery is RICHARD'S IMMORTALITY (note: Ben's recovery did not happen in murky waters, as demonstrated by the baffled expressions of the OTHERS).

Now let's notice the sequence of events.

1) Someone mentioned that Smokey-Locke might have been speaking metaphorically.
That "It's nice to see you out of those chains." refers to Jacob's death, & the end of Richard's servitude.

2) The next thing we know, Smokey-Locke brutalizes Richard. Sending him collapsing with a shot to the throat.
This is the first time we've seen Richard, the supposed immortal, in physical distress.

3) We jump to Sayid rising from the dead.

To spell it out:
Could Sayid be the new Richard?
Could Richard's "power" have transferred to Sayid?

Anonymous said...

"Eyeliner was first used in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia as a dark black line around the eyes." From Wikipedia.

Pamalamb said...

I really am liking the chains being metaphorical idea. Richard is out of chains because Jacob is gone and no longer controling him. Not-Locke told Ben (while they were on their way to see Jacob) that once Jacob was dead everything would be better, and I'm sure he believes that whether it's true or not. He could probably have said the same thing about Ben being without chains. Whether or not he is evil or good, I think he thinks he is good and Jacob is evil and everyone will be better off now without Jacob.

Ali Bags said...

@humanebean perhaps there was some kind of a mutiny on the Black Rock and that by the time that Richard arrived on the Island, he was in chains. I find this concept fascinating.

I like this idea too - I just can't see Richard Alpert as a slave - his name doesn't fit for one. He is so like a captain or someone who is used to being in charge.

However, I also like the idea of the chains being metaphorical. I reckon the writers are deliberately misleading us. What? No!

I'd just like to remind everyone of Blam's stroke of ridiculous genius in the episode comments:

Do you think that when Nestor Carbonell types an emoticon he boldfaces the colon?

Ali Bags said...

@JennOkay. I agree that Jacob is creepy. But he's also kinda palatable, no?

For once we don't agree on palatibilty. Creepy doesn't do it for me, and blonde and creepy definitely not. I like bad, but not creepy.

@Nikki - I'm so glad that you rather like the idea of Richard in chains as well!

Ali Bags said...

By the way, I had a thought in the early hours of this morning.

Where did Richard get his super stylish clothes from?

monaal said...

[IMG]http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af354/monaalsr2/LostS04E03-TheEconomistavi_00073027.jpg[/IMG]

Hi all. I have been following this blog right from Season 4 but never yet posted because most of what I saw or thought was already posted. However I believe this is something not noticed by anyone as yet. Ever since I saw the Season 6 premiere I had the feeling that I had seen the Samurai's translator at the temple somewhere before in the series. Hence I set out searching for him. Lo and behold here I have him. Its from the Season 4 Episode 3 'The Economist' when Locke leads his entourage in search of the cabin. He is behind Rousseau in this image. Can anyone explain what is going on?

EvaHart said...

@Wow... until now that title only belonged to some illicit fan fiction I'd written...

Now thats is something I would love to read!

Although I would love to discover that Richrd was the captain of the Black Rock and somehow involved in a mutiny, I think the metophorical chains are also very likely. As AliBags sais, it is possible the writers are deliberately trying to make us yhink of the Black Rock.

Jenn said...

@Ali Bags

When 'Jacob' was on Dexter as Rita's creepy husband—I was terrified of him. There was absolutely no palatable feelings going on at all.

Also—I am usually not usually into blondes, either.

So, imagine my surprise when on Tuesday, I found myself thinking, "Hey, is it just me, or is Jacob/Rita's creepy husband looking a little palatable?"

I surprised myself, I did!

So, I can absolutely empathize with your non-palatable feelings toward Jacob. I am not even sure why I find him palatable! Haha!

Maybe, as Joan says, it's because his face has many secrets. Is that a desirable feature these days? Yes, it must be! Or maybe only for us Lost girls.

Benny said...

@monaal: It really looks like him, but the guy in the picture is an uncredited extra. The interpretor (Lennon) is played by fame dactor John Hawkes. He has been in TV and movies since the 80s, most notably on Deadwood as a main character.

His resume would require his name to be credited no matter the extent of his use. IT has not been.

I'm pretty sure the group would have recognized one of their own survivors, of Locke noticed he was an impostor.

TiaSabita said...

@jenn, joan, studiorose - no, you're not the only ones who aren't convinced jacob is good! i've felt it from the first time we met him, that we're being tricked!! he gives me the creeps too, so smarmy and kinda condescending and over confident. jacob seemed to much more enjoy the idea of the corrupting and destroying than mib did. and it makes sense that it would be more complicated than white=pure but heck, who knows! the writers surely have a lot more 'splainin to do!!

asiancolossus said...

I didn't know you had bondage fantasies until now Nikki, you've been holding out on us :)

Fred said...

@ Pamalamb: I like your idea about the chains being metaphorical. When Bram and the shadow seekers entered the statue looking for Jacob, MiB told them he was no longer there. Then he told them they were free, to go and live their lives. The same phrase was used by Ben when he released Sayid in Russia.

Jacob seems to be like a little boy playing with insects, pitting one species against another and seeing what happens. As MiB would say, it always ends the same. By removing Jacob, those under him are free of their obligations to Jacob--free of chains.

But there must be something that binds them to Jacob. And it must be control of the eternal water at the Temple. To be free would mean going on and living your life, but giving up on immortality, or at least good health, and perhaps more. MiB did not kill Richard, but merely knocked him out. Then he said he was disappointed in the rest. Despite their confusion with Locke's body, they might still feel MiB as Locke is still their leader.

brother to joshua said...

Perhaps Richard was a servant and not a slave...
"In ancient Egypt, textual references to slaves are indistinct. From word usage along, it is difficult to ascertain whether one was a slave or a servant. For example, a priest could be read as a god's slave, but by our definition and understanding of slavery he was not. In reading Egyptian texts, therefore, context is the only criteria for determining such a status, and even then, it can be difficult, because there were different levels of servitude. Those who were not free might not only include slaves, but also those with various degrees of encumbered liberty." -Oxford Univ. Press

hmm...various degrees of encumbered liberty...

AchingHope said...

It's weird thinking of Richard having a beginning point, cause he's just ALWAYS been there, and it's weird to think of him having a beginning point, which I realize is kinda' strange. Ahem. Anyway.

The only thing with the metaphorical idea is that I personally think Richard starts acting weird before that. Once Not Locke comes to the island and starts ordering Ben and Richard around, I think he already starts unraveling. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. (or maybe it's maybeline ;)

Joan Crawford said...

@TiaSabita: YES. Also, I find it interesting that, so far, only women have their Creep Radar's blinking over Jacob. We are pretty accepting group too (we have come to love a con-man, a torturer after all).

Jenn said...

@Joan

Ha! So true, isn't it? We can love our con men and torturers, heroin-hobbits and step-sister-lovers all we want (and I DO love that con man!), but when we are presented with a character that—supposedly—represents all that is right with the world, we shun him. Ah, no! Not that Jacob. He's CREEPY! (palatably creepy, but still…)

That being said—I think we're all pretty awesome for being so forgiving and loving toward Captain Eyeliner and the gang:)

Blam said...


Anonymous: Dude! I was thinking Prometheus, too, and I'm glad someone else is (mostly 'cause I keep forgetting to say it).

Jenn: Am I the only one that's not 100% sure that Jacob is good, and Man in Black is evil?
Nope. I'm mostly unsure, though, "because it's Darlton and Lost and all," as you say, and not because of anything within the story that leads me to suspect otherwise. Some time during last season, maybe in regards to Ben, I mentioned that if the Powers That Be were faking us out about so-and-so being "the good guys" then they'd better start turning the ship of emotional influence around soon, because at a certain point the revelation just boils down to "Gotcha!" and leaves us feeling nothing but manipulation and frustration over having invested ourselves in the wrong characters. The fact that I can't even remember for sure what the context was for these remarks is evidence that Lost has a penchant for keeping us questioning things, and all the flirtatious fake-outs in the S6 premiere continue this trend, but it's a dangerous one.

Joan Crawford: Right after I posted that - my coffee maker started flipping out and turning itself on and off!
Honey Baby Doll, I love you like someone I've never met, but I have a feeling that all those coffee and cigarettes are doing something to your teeth.

Ali Bags:I'd just like to remind everyone of Blam's stroke of ridiculous genius in the episode comments:
Thank you. I'll be here all season. Don't forget to tip your blogmistress.

all o' y'all: I'd just like to remind everyone, or at least those of you thinking/hoping Jacob's evil, that Michael Pellegrino has a recurring role on Supernatural, one of the best shows on television, as the human host of Lucifer. Yes, that Lucifer.

Joan Crawford said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Nikki Stafford said...

AliBags: By the way, I had a thought in the early hours of this morning.

Where did Richard get his super stylish clothes from?


Didn't you see that episode of Project Island Runway where designers were working on Richard's new wardrobe? Jacob was one of the contestants. He took FOREVER to make a single outfit (kept insisting on making the thread himself) and Island Tim Gunn did the go-round, stopped beside him and said, "You want my honest opinion? It's saying 'Greek' to me... and I think we want something a little more dapper and less matronly." Jacob looked at it and said, "You might be right, Tim. I'll rethink this one." Tim: "Make it work! And when you're done that, can I FINALLY leave this island?" Jacob: "No."

Joan Crawford said...

@Blam - BWAHAHA! I'm an idiot. The jokes - I don't get them, sometimes, eh? I deleted my last comment because I forgot that my pic is of Zombie Joan.

Ali Bags said...

@Nikki

Thanks for the explanation! I am guessing Richard then made the outfit all his own by rolling the sleeves up to JUST the right length to say 'I'm Hot'

Duke said...

I am finding all of these comments so interesting! I think part of what draws me to LOST is the "greyness" of it...there really is no clear black and white. Even the evil characters evoke sympathy and the good characters are deeply flawed.

verification word: Puggradu: the place that pugs go after completing their undergrad.

JS said...

@Nikki - LOL. I could TOTALLY see that episode of Project Island Runway.

We keep talking about good and evil, and it just isn't sitting right with me. To date, LOST has been more about faith/destiny v. science/free will. Although, I could see science joined with destiny (scientific laws and all) and faith representing free will (that whole leap of faith thing)……

Anyway, since S5 finale, I have thought of Jacob as Free Will and of MiBS as Destiny. Jacob influences, pushes and suggests, but always under the guise of the characters making their own choices, in their own interest. He is overt in his manipulation.

Smokey, on the other hand, has been about faith, belief, judgment, redemption. And, the nature of man. He believes they will always end up the same way, doing what they were meant to do, be destructive. He manipulated the characters as well, but much more subtly, with them thinking they were making their own choices, when what they were really doing was his bidding, to their detriment. See trail of dead people, dead confused Locke, and devastated Ben (he just killed the one person he actually believed in.)

So, creepy Jacob = free will, Man in Black Smoke = Destiny.

What think ye?

Benny said...

@JS: That's how many of us have seen it, but with the way the nemesis says to Bram how they are now free, this made me think he could represent free will. Jacob's touch could be pre-determination, or Jacob changing their destiny.

But again this is just an impression, not quite what I ultimately think.

Jenn said...

@Blam

Hmmm. Never thought of that aspect of the "What id Jacob is evil," thing, but you're right. That would leave a sour taste in many people's mouths (most notably, in Joan Crawford's mouth). It will be inetersting to see where Darlton lead us and our character loyalties this season. Great point!

VW: rollymen. Men that roll, of course!

Fred said...

Didn't know where to put this idea, so here sounds as good as any. The last scenes of the LA X where concerning Christian's body. Lennon comes in saying he wants to speak to Jack in person. My guess is they were going to show Jack his father's body. It makes sense that when the plane crashed, the Temple Others went out to look around and found Christian's coffin. Knowing MiB's propensity for assuming dead bodies shapes, they took the body away. That would be why the coffin was empty. But MiB had already seen the body of Christian, which is why Jack saw him on the beach.

The only hitch I have about this is when Christian appeared in the water. Was that his ghost?

NecieDee said...

I don't know how relevant this is, but we've seen at least 3 deaths involving chains: -

Locke's dad
Suicide on freighter
Juliet

bowlhed said...

Great comments everyone, got me thinking - what if Richard is no longer immortal now that Jacob is dead. Thus the "good to see you out of those chains"?

Apologies if someone has already bought this idea to the table!

JS said...

@Benny - Yeah, MiB saying they were now free throws a wrench into this theory. In most instances, though Jacob's interactions are a little different with each person he touches -- from the seemingly benign interaction (asking Sayid for directions, giving Jack a candy bar), all the way through asking them to do something specific (asking Ilana and Hurley to go back to the island). I guess you can either see that as a gentle push in the right direction and/or asking them to make the choice, or his touch at those key events being the thing that makes them come back.

Jack - a little push
Kate - you won't do that again, will you
Sawyer - I'm sorry, here's a pen if you want to write that letter
Locke - I'm sorry, I'll bring you back to life
Sayid - let me keep you from being hit by that car
Ilana - I need your help
Hurley - Please go back to the island


Definitely will be looking for this on Tuesday.

CBP68 said...

Could the emergence of Not John Locke have anything to do with his comment "I am so disappointed in all of you!" have to do with Noah and the island under water??? I am so convinced that the Biblical references are so similiar. And my earlier comment about JAWS has to be correct with the Dharma symbol on the shark. I am convinced. Maybe a LOST writer is a JAWS fan! It totally concides with the time travel to when the movie premiered in 1975.

CBP68 said...

I realized my first post didn't go through. I loved when Juliet said "You son of a bitch". Same comment by Roy Schendier in JAWS! Right before he blew the great white to smithereens. Just like the atom bomb!

Fred said...

So many times we wanted to hear the name of MiB, but were always diverted. Richard merely says, "you." So perhaps looking at Exodus, since that was even a title to an episode, might help. One angel of death, and not always considered good, is Samael. According to Wikipedia, he is considered Esau's guardian angel, the snake tempting Eve, and one who wrestled with Jacob.

So there is a best bet on MiB's name: Samael.

Zari said...

@JS: ...from [Jacob’s] seemingly benign interaction, asking Sayid for directions,...“Sayid - let me keep you from being hit by that car”

Jacob’s contact with Sayid seemed just the opposite to me. He kept Sayid from getting hit by the car, but it appeared to me that Jacob waited deliberately until Nadia was in the path of the speeding car and then distracted Sayid. I thought Jacob “killed” Nadia so he could get Sayid’s “undivided attention” and that has always disturbed me.

Word Verf: staxe : 1. Patron Saint of wood choppers; 2. How the choppers store the wood.

thomwade said...

"We could take this literally – Alpert was a slave on the Black Rock, and the Man in Black was the slavemaster… or another slave…"

I see no implication that Man in Black and Richard came to the island together, as I am pretty sure the MIB/Jacob relationship goes back farther than the arrival of the Black Rock (and especially since we see the Black Rock in the Season 5 finale). I am inclined to think they are not as closely connected as that. But Richard being an agent of Jacob would put him on the sh*tlist for MIB by default.

Anonymous said...

Lostlass here

Eeek. I worry that I am about to
venture in over my head but...my vote is that "chains" is metaphorical (although I have enjoyed all the comments to the contrary!) The following is hardly original, but a summary of my thoughts combined with many of yours.

MIB hates Jacob because he feels Jacob is a manipulator. MIB thinks people on the Island (perhaps Eden, perhaps the Universe) should be free and the only way to free the people is to kill Jacob.

Jacob always wants people to
"choose" but also thinks they need/deserve a "push" now and then.

To me this is the classic argument between "lucifer" and "god". "god" claims to believe in "free will" and has given it as a gift to mankind but knows mankind will use the gift poorly, therefore "god" allows himself to intervene to
"help" man do better.
(abraham/moses/jesus, etc. or...
individual significant visits to the O6)

"Lucifer" says quit interfering, you hypocrit, if they really have free will, let them do what they want, quit manipulating. Hence, MIB's comment to Bram and his comment to Richard - which I take to mean that Richard, whatever his history, is now free of Jacob's
"lordship".

I still think Jacob is "good" because I repeatedly see compassion
in him, which sometimes gets the better of him and causes him to
"interfere" in human lives. MIB means well but does not feel any empathy with the frailty of humans (Eko, Locke, Ben, etc)

Jacob does not care for Ben because in his mind, Ben has used his free will so horribly, including "summoning" the MIB on occasion.

Finally I think the reason we are not 100% sure of Jacob is, good writing and good casting. The actor has such edge about him, he can't help but earn our suspicions.

Oh and I agree with the person who said we are about to see something to do with Christian - which is why the Others want to talk to Jack privately.

Come on Tuesday! 8~)

Lostlass

ninja raiden said...

Hey Nik! Hey Guys! I was wondering if we could have some kind of analytical debate on Lost and feminism?
I've been reading forums all over the place and have seen the discussion dissolve into frustration. I know that we're capable of a civil discussion and the subject has intrigued me lately. Is that cool, Nik?

Joan Crawford said...

@Jenn - Heroin-Hobbits Hahaha!

SonshineMusic said...

This is off topic but.... Nikki! When are we finally going to get to see what was in that package! I'm losing sleep over this ;)


VW: quortur - the coin that comes after nikkuls and dymes

Rufus said...

I had a question about Richard and that was why didn't the MIB just kill him already. If Richard is on the Jacob team then you'd think that the MIB would want that complication neutralized. But then again if Jacob and MIB are in some kind of eternal game maybe Richard is some sort of referee? Someone has to remind all players of the rules.

Anonymous said...

A lot of people are speculating that the "chains" comment refers to Richard being a slave on the Black Rock. The Black Rock set sail in 1845. I get the feeling that Richard is A LOT older than 200 years. Also, he gives off an Egyptian vibe to me, not African. So I think the chains refer to something else. I think he might have been an Egyptian slave, brought over to build the statue and/or the temple.

Ali Bags said...

Excellent point Anonymous. Just because we saw the Black Rock at the end of season 5 we have all become fixated on it. As Jacob and MiB's conversation revealed, many people came to the island BEFORE the Black Rock.

Blam said...

Have Damon & Carlton said anyplace that the ship in the S5 finale was The Black Rock? 'Cause I didn't think it was at the time and still don't.
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VW: pective — Afflicted by nervous spasms of the chest muscles.

thomwade said...

I don't know...it's a possibility...but the odds are also pretty good that it's the Black Rock... how many ships like the Black Rock made it to the island? It seems odd to introduce a new ship at this point and makes more sense that the ship in season 5 is the Black Rock.

Blam said...

I don't know that the S5-finale ship's wreckage would be on the Island. That opening scene with Jacob and "Esau" felt to me like it took place much earlier than 1845 (granted, we have almost no context), which is one reason why I never assumed the ship was was TBR; the remains could be sunk or have disintegrated over time. And I always subscribed to the theory that the Island materialized right from under TBR, beaching it, whereas this ship was clearly approaching the Island by sea.
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VW: inwon — What happened when my cat went to the door and saw a couple feet of snow.

Joan Crawford said...

"...felt to me like it took place much earlier than 1845"

Blam won't admit this in public but he is a bit of a fashionista and he is well aware that the tattered pants and billowy shirt combo Jacob was sporting was so over by 1845.

No context, indeed *wink*

Lisa said...

Lostlass said: I still think Jacob is "good" because I repeatedly see compassion
in him, which sometimes gets the better of him and causes him to
"interfere" in human lives. MIB means well but does not feel any empathy with the frailty of humans (Eko, Locke, Ben, etc)

I think you're right on the money here. Plus, I don't get creepy vibes from Jacob at all, only the completely palatable ones! Either way, I'm glad Richard/Nestor in chains is in the starting line up this season because he is just beautiful.

Am I the only one longing to know the answers and to watch it all play out, while at the same time hoping that May 23rd doesn't actually get here so that it doesn't have to end?

VW: undotsiv = the sequal to the movie undotsiii