Jacob was very concerned about Sayid in the jungle when he was talking to Hurley, and said it was very, very important that Hurley save him. Is it because he needed that body to enter? If that’s the case, and Jacob now looks like Sayid, there’s a VERY huge difference between Jacob and the Man in Black right now: Jacob is in Sayid’s actual body, whereas the Man in Black simply looks like Locke, but isn’t actually inhabiting his body (that body is lying on the beach). Similarly he wasn’t actually inhabiting Yemi’s body, he just looked like him. But there’s only one body with Sayid, and it just rose up and said, “What happened?” Could it be that Sayid is now Jacob?
If so… then Sayid is really dead. As Locke said to Jack, if you lose a body you haven’t lost the person, because they were already gone. Now I’m sad… :(
And finally, did anyone think he looked more clean-shaven when he was resurrected than when he was shot? Did Death give Jacob a haircut and Sayid a shave? Death works in very mysterious ways on the island…
48 comments:
I did notice, as another poster said, that he sounded more like Naveen when he spoke after the spring. Though Jacob isn't British...
As unpopular as my opinion is, I still think Jacob is a Weirdo of the Highest Order and I sincerely hope he isn't rummaging around inside Sayid.
If Sayid really is dead, I am disappointed. Mr.Man was done in by Roger Workman?
Uch. I am so disgusted I could spit.
I don't know. According to Lennon, they were in trouble if he died. So they attempted to prevent him from dying, not trying to have him dead and a vehicle.
So I'm still not sure there.
Of course Jacob might have known that Sayid was going to die anyways and since he was dead he needed Sayid to be brought to the 'tainted' water to be able to enter his body.
And if Jacob is in Sayid's body, then Sayid should be dead and Miles should be able to hear his last thoughts.
I also thought he looked a little cleaned up. Perhaps that bath he took really did the trick, even though the water didn't look very clean. Or perhaps this is a mystery we have not looked into enough; is one of the islands special powers the ability to give any inhabitant a new hairdo at any moment? It can heal the sick, and cause plane crashes, and attract very palatable people, and make those people even more palatable at a moments notice.
To be honest, this was my first thought as I watched the episode. It is very sad to think that Sayid died but it makes sense seeing as how desperate Jacob was to get Sayid "saved". I also thought the scene where the "temple others" carried "dead Sayid" out of the water was very telling, as Sayid was in a Christ/Crucifixion pose at that point.
I cannot accept that Sayid is dead, or is anyone else. I agree with Joan Crawford - how can a man who can kill people with his feet, or with a dishwasher, die by the hand of ... well a drunk from far away? These kinds of characters are always killed in close combat. Even Darlton haven't broken that rule.
I do not believe Jacob inhabited Sayid. We are not entirely sure why Sayid is important, but he is one of those touched by Jacob, so whatever the reason was for touching him and others is the reason Jacob wants him alive. Perhaps he needs all of them to fight the MiB.
Wah. This isn't fair. The only death I have cried over is Sayid's. The others certainly made me sad, made my heart ache, but I think I am actually going through the phases of grief. Look for anger soon.
If that’s the case, and Jacob now looks like Sayid
As opposed to a sandy-blond Michael Ian Black...
There are too many buts, it seems to me, from Esau's having duplicated Locke's body, not possessed it, to the fact that Jacob probably wouldn't be asking "What happened?"
If that's the case, then I think the show could've been poetic by having Jack inhibit Jacob, not Sayid. Sayid vs. Locke and just a weird choice to me.
Oh, I hope Sayid isn't dead... and I definitely agree; of all the ways they could have killed him, please, please don't let him be killed by Roger Workman...
I think that part of Smokey's "loophole" is that while he seemed to inhabit Christian, Yemi, and Alex's bodies, he is actually taking on the form of Locke. Maybe there's some sort of rule Jacob made like:
"You can't actually BE a dead person and kill me, you can only PRETEND to be a dead person and kill me."
Verification Word: Dethe. Uh oh...
I don't think that Sayid was dead, because when Hugo was saying, "If you need to talk, I'll be around", Miles looks at him as if to say, "He's not dead". Miles didn't do the ghostbuster thing.
verification word: fadspa. A spa that is a huge fad.
@ODM; I absolutely LOVE your theory that John Locke could now be in Sayid's body, especially after hwo you outlined the final three scenes of the episode!
Another note: Back in "LeFleur", we saw the Others' obssesion with burying their dead very, very deep. This is probably so that MIB couldn't get to them the way he got to Locke, Christian & Yemi. Perhaps, because of how physically powerful Sayid is, Jacob did not want MIB to inhabit his body, because it might make him harder to defeat?
*Shudder* Sayid can be scary enough as a good guy, imagine EVIL Sayid tromping through the jungle in a black tank top, shooting down everyone he sees! It's a good thing John Lennon and his Sensei ordered the Others to surround the Temple in ash so that nothing can get to Sayid's body.
I don't think Sayid is dead, and my reason is...
Na na nana na! I can't hear you!
Not to be picky here (oh wait, it's my nature!) but TECHNICALLY... Sayid was killed by the two guys holding his head under the water, not the bullet. Think of it as a guy dying of the bubonic plague who gets run over by a horse. Cause of death would be the horse... even though the plague would have gotten him sooner or later. ;)
That said, I'm with you guys... I REALLY hope he's not dead. And I think the British accent was just a fluke.
As for why Jacob would say, "What happened?" Well, if he doesn't want the world to know he's actually Jacob, he's just playing along and pretending to be a resurrected Sayid... Not-Locke certainly had us convinced he was Locke, so why wouldn't Jacob pull the same thing?
@ Joan
I just commented some Jacob-doubts in the blog about Richard in chains (drool…)
Question:
What was up with the tainted water? Everyone seemed surprised to find it in the tainted state, but yet they dunked Sayid in there anyways. If the others were going to be in such big trouble if Sayid died, why would they just go ahead and dunk him in tainted water that clearly had only become tainted since the last time that they looked at it?
I had an issue with Lennon telling Jack that there were "risks" - and Jack, who, not five minutes earlier, was threatened with execution by these same people, didn't think to ask what those risks MIGHT BE?! Um...could one of them be "possible possession by evil entity?"
I'm with you, JS; Sayid's "death" was very sad; worse than Charlie's for me. At least Jack squeezed out a few tears; no one else seemed all that broken up. However, now that his body is going to be up and walking around, I don't care *who's* in there, even if he's gone all Dark Side (as did Ben after a similar healing). In fact, maybe Evil Sayid would be even more, um...palatable. (::SIGH::)
Warning - politically incorrect question coming up, ref Sayid's conversation with Hurley about where he will "go" after he dies, and his concern that it won't be "pleasant," given all the killin' and torturin' he's done. However, doesn't Sayid practice the Muslim faith? Wherein you get *rewarded* for torturin' and killin' "infidels" (basically, anyone who isn't Muslim)? Why isn't Sayid doing an internal Happy Dance as he contemplates the many hundreds of virgins awaiting him in the afterlife?
I'm just askin'.
I would say that's a politically incorrect statement.
@studiorose: that is actually not how the muslim faith surrounding life after death works.
There are many misconception about this topic (just as about most religions) outside and within the faith in question.
Short and simple: a martyr will access the highest levels of heaven (with the 72 virgins) if his death occurred within a sanctioned Jihad. Torture is not included in Jihad.
Jihad, which is a struggle against the infidels does not equal destroying non-believers. It represent teaching the words (conversion) or disassociation with infidels. The only case where violence against non-believers is sanctioned would be when the faith itself is actively threatened.
"72 virgins" is akin to Christianity's becoming an angel after living a pure life according to the scripture of the given religion.
Again, this is not 100% accurate but it is likely the shortest/simplest I can provide in comment form. Wiki has a surprisingly more or less accurate description of it.
In the case of Sayid, he realizes that his action, torture of 'enemies of the STATE' have not been in line with his faith and even his actions on/off the island (think assassinations). He knows he's not going to a nice resort.
[thanks for the P.I. warning though]
@Virginia Katz: is one of the islands special powers the ability to give any inhabitant a new hairdo at any moment?
hahahahahaha! That would explain Claire's haircut in, what, S2? and all of those other ones too. Maybe the Island is also in charge of flashback hairdos :P
Benny, thank you for your thoughtful comment. I realized later that it probably wasn't apparent that I asked the question with tongue firmly in cheek; I apologize to anyone I offended. The prevailing belief about the "virgins as afterlife reward for killing infidels" was quite prevalent after 9/11 ad I'm sure various misconceptions are still held by many on the subject.
Getting back to Sayid, though - so glad, as Hurley would say, the dude isn't dead. (cue suspenseful music: OR IS HE?!)
We shouldn't confuse Jacob with Smokey, which is what this theory does.
Remember, Smokey is a shape-shifting element who has no connection to the bodies he clones.
So people can shoot or stab him, and it won't work.
His physical form isn't important.
Whereas Jacob's physical form means something.
We know this, because we've seen him maintain it for at least a century (while Smokey was constantly changing).
We also know this, because Smokey placed a great value on killing Jacob physically.
Presumably, Smokey knows Jacob better than anyone else.
He saw fit to work on a century-long scheme to get someone to stab Jacob.
Why would Smokey do this, if Jacob could simply switch bodies?
Saying all that...
I think the key to figuring out Sayid...is Richard, not Jacob.
The "OTHERS" were shocked & mystified at Sayid's recovery.
And the only other time I've seen them befuddled is when they're asked about Richard.
I'll leave it there.
_____
(NOTE: I'm going to cite some teeny tiny teasers released by ABC. Feel free to delete this post, if you consider it spoilery)
Have you guys seen the recent ABC teaser video?
In it, Sayid speaks with his usual Iraqi accent.
So, obviously, many of us were reading too much into Sayid's: "What happened..." line.
Also, ABC released some teaser photos.
In them, Sayid is brought out to the court yard, where he maintains his confused & disoriented demeanour.
When you add these up, it certainly looks like our good old Sayid is back.
Because Jacob would have done much more than hang around & look stunned.
Doesn't anyone else think that the water became tainted after Jacob's death? As long as Jacob was alive the water was clear
People here have way too many misconceptions. First, we haven't seen so far not one single "post-mortem body possession", because Smokey DOESN'T POSSESS bodies, he gets to them (only the unburied ones) and then takes their memories and mimics their appearances.
Sayid NEVER died. His vitals (i.e. his pulse)stopped, but he didn't succumb to death. The reason of this? Maybe the pool prevented him from fully dying... maybe it was Jacob's touch when Nadia was hit by a car. But he didn't die in the pool. Miles said "Nothing" puzzled and Sayid woke up looking all bewildered and asking what had happened... as Ben said, I sincerely doubt Jacob would ever feel confused.
There is NO SIGN of any body possession... none AT ALL. I sincerely don't know where the notions of Sayid being a vehicle for a dead one stem from, except from a profound desire of seeing Jacob or Locke alive again, if not at the expense of a great character like Sayid. Shame on you all.
I love Sayid as Sayid. He's a wonderfully conflicted character, and as much as I want Naveen to be a part of the show in any capacity, I don't think Sayid's journey is over.
Only just watched the premiere last night, but I have been avidly reading all of your insights!
The moment Jacob
seemed so concerned about Sayid and when he was brought in to the temple, I immediately thought that it was so Jacob could use his body. The fact that the water was tainted, symbolicly with Jacob's blood, seemed to support this but now thinking back Jacob inhabiting Sayid's body doesn't really make sense. Also why did it take so long to take effect?
I think something special has definitley happened to him but I'm not so sure if it is Jacob.
@ODM Interesting idea! I was wondering why they showed us a close up of Locke's body, I thought for a second he was going to get up!
I also thought the parting shot of Locke's body was interesting, almost as if to say "don't forget about old Locke yet" And then we cut to Sayid's resurrection...
@Virginia Katz: is one of the islands special powers the ability to give any inhabitant a new hairdo at any moment?
This answers my question on the 'Richard in Chains' post - clearly the island also provides Richard Alpert with permanently clean and pressed designer clothes.
Maybe all hey need to do then is dunk dead locke in the water & bring him back to life?
Then he can take on MIB and emerge victorious & be the hero we always wanted him to become???
Please, Darlton??? :)...
@ODM's last comment - ditto!
@joan - 'I still think Jacob is a Weirdo of the Highest Order' - Jacob is a WHO - ditto again & love it!!
"Did Death give Jacob a haircut and Sayid a shave? Death works in very mysterious ways on the island…"
Ahahahahahahahaha...
And if the island does have magical properties to keep beards from growing unkempt (think about it, they were stuck on that island for how long and no one ever looked beyond scruffy?) then I am sincerely glad Jack made it back to the island, and we are safe from his crazy beard. I was always afraid that thing was going to jump off and attack me.
@Robert: But think about it, Locke with wicked knife skills, and Sayid with dishwasher feet skills? That would be a fight like no other.
@ODM: Ooh... Those are some good thoughts. I must mull them over.
@ODM: Great, plausible theory. And has the benefit of being more nuanced and interesting than the idea that Jacob merely looked around for a likely candidate (Sayid) and plunked down into his newly-dead body. The Man in Black's grand plan to kill Jacob would seem pretty foolish if Jacob could simply reincarnate by lunchtime on the same day.
Not to mention, your idea of "wandering souls" that occasionally might intervene in the affairs of the living, goes a long way to making sense of the "whispers", does it not?
Not to mention, whatever it is that happened to Sayid in the temple must be analogous what happened to boy Ben when Richard brought him there in '77, right? Therefore, Sayid has been changed in some mysterious, possibly sinister way, but it can't be that he's just the new Jacob.
I think we said this in the original post, but we shouldn't underestimate the parallels between Sayid and Ben:
Both go to the temple to "recover" from a gunshot wound.
Both do things that are despicable in the name of some higher good. Though Sayid actually regrets all of it, Ben only regrets his daughters death.
Ben was innocent and lost that with his "resurrection". Look for Sayid to somehow gain some innocence he seemed to never have, even in childhood (see deflated ghost chicken).
They are very intertwined in each others lives after they leave the island - Sayid works for Ben, doing what he does best, also in the name of some higher good, where Ben believes they are at war. Maybe now Ben will somehow work for Sayid, in the war that is coming.
One thing about Smokie I havent seen mentioned in any posts - remember how it scanned Eko, Juliet and Kate when it first encountered them? and although we didnt see it, maybe Locke too? We assume it is judging them but for what purpose? I don't think its a simple as a moral or spiritual judgement.Perhaps Smokie is evaluating each person's usefulness to its agenda. In the case of Eko he needed him to influence Locke as part of his plan to break Locke. Same with Ben. Kate and Juliet simple weren't of use to him at the time.
As Sayid has never had a face to face encounter with Smokie, I think we can rule him out and Jacob has never been shown to exibit this power- It could be that Jacob is able to absorb memories through touch (as seen in The Incident)Personally, I think this unlikely but I do think Jacob's touch has something to do with Sayid's resurrection.
ps:Iain Lee on Sky One's Lost Initiative has an interesting theory - that the Sayid who rises from the death is from the alternative timeline.
I think I posted my comment on the wrong thread....
@JS: ...from [Jacob’s] seemingly benign interaction, asking Sayid for directions,...“Sayid - let me keep you from being hit by that car”
Jacob’s contact with Sayid seemed just the opposite to me. He kept Sayid from getting hit by the car, but it appeared to me that Jacob waited deliberately until Nadia was in the path of the speeding car and then distracted Sayid. I thought Jacob “killed” Nadia so he could get Sayid’s “undivided attention” and that has always disturbed me.
Word Verf: gnatess : Aristocratic female gnat.
Interesting factoid about Sayid being held underwater, don't know if this is true, I heard it on one of those audio blogs, that he was held under water for 108 seconds...
Boy some people really have too much time on their hands LOL
JS,
People who use Ben as a precedent for Sayid miss some key differences.
1) Sayid was hand-picked by Jacob for "saving". While Ben was only saved because Kate felt outraged at Jack & Sayid's (in)actions.
2) Sayid was dipped in murky waters. While Ben was dipped in clear water. We know this because the OTHERS acted as if the murky waters had never appeared before. DOGAN wouldn't have done the "hand test" if they had gone through this with Ben.
3) Jacob voluntarily appeared to Sayid. Jacob was forced into meeting Ben because of Smokey-Locke. Notice that Ben doesn't recall ever having met Jacob. Whereas Sayid would instantly recognize Jacob, if another meeting was possible.
On a seperate note, we can't even say that Ben was "changed" after he was "dipped".
From the flashbacks & his prison conversations with Sayid: we see that little Ben is the same creep big Ben turned out to be.
So despite Richard's warnings, we have no visible proof that the water changes personalities.
That's what makes Sayid's storyline so interesting. There's very little precedent for what's happening to him.
@Paul E.:
You have good points, but I don't think they're as solid as you think. While I'm not going to believe right out any single theory, let me just point where your argument may be weak.
In reply to (2), we don't know it's never happened. They don't know WHY it's currently cloudy. This could have happened before. They know to test it to see how it is currently affected by the residue.
As for (3), we don't know either that Jacob has never appeared to Ben. He could have done so when Ben was younger and with Richard. He may not remember him, but Jacob certainly knows Ben. Would Sayid really recognize him? while they met face to face, it was only for a fraction to ask for direction. Would you recognize anyone who asked you for direction some months ago?
What is relevant is that Jacob appeared to Sayid more recently than he may have appeared to Ben. And that Jacob did ask for Sayid to be brought to the Temple.
Again, your points for 'no precedent' are for sure valid, I just don't think they are any more conclusive than for 'with precedent'.
JS compared Sayid to Ben.
But I think there's a better comparison.
There's a clearer link between Sayid & Mr. Eko.
1) Both were born into violent environments (Nigeria & Iraq).
2) Both had childhood flashbacks that involved sparing their siblings of commiting horrifying violence (Eko's brother couldn't shoot someone, Sayid's brother couldn't kill a chicken).
3) Both grew to do dark deeds (Eko was a drug kingpin, Sayid was a professional torturer).
4) Both tried to leave their violent pasts, made vows never to harm others again, & were seeking redemption in good deeds (Eko became a priest, Sayid built houses in Latin America).
I have this theory that Sayid's current storyline was originally meant for Mr. Eko.
But, as some of you may have heard, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje left the show for personal family obligations. The writers might have shifted that trajectory onto Sayid.
After all, the promos show that the Japanese priest will tell Sayid: "This is your chance to redeem yourself".
This sounds similar to what Eko's brother (in the Smokey apparitions) presented to Eko.
Eko didn't repent, and he died.
We shall see what Sayid's reaction will be.
@Paul E.: I like this new comparison to Mr. Eko.
While unfortunate not to see him run his course, it would be interesting to see the idea applied to Sayid.
Speaking of bodies and souls, here's an interesting Nigerian legend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_eater_%28folklore%29
DO you think there are any possible links to Smokey?
I just rewatched the episode today for the third time and it looks like just after Hurley tells Sayid that he'll be around if he ever wants to talk (when they think Sayid is dead) the water has become clear again. Has anyone else noticed this? Could it be an indication that Jacob has passed into Sayid? I haven't read through all the comments on the initial post, I got bogged down somewhere around comment 260...
TreeClimber
Your Wiki article is too vague.
In fact, we know more about Smokey than the creature you're citing.
So here's what we know about Smokey:
1) Makes copies of bodies (dead bodies still exist, Smokey clones them).
2) Scans dead bodies for memories (told Ben what Locke's dying thoughts were)
3) Can’t be in two places at once (appears as smoke or clone, but not both).
4) Can’t pass through ashes (both Jacbob’s bodyguard & Others prove this)
Smokey's a physical being, with his own physical powers & constraints.
So he's not really stealing souls or becoming people. He's just doing impressions based on really good costumes & brain memory scans.
Ashlie,
I don't think the water changed.
The scene where Hurley talks to dead-Sayid has a brief glimpse of the pool at this time code:
01:13:58 - 01:14:02
The water is a mix of brown & dark green, with some spots of dark shadow.
It's the exact same shade as when Dogan & Lennon first enter the pool house & gasp at the colour change. That scene took place at an earlier time code: 01:00:46 - 01:00:50
It's clearly an angular issue. At certain angles, the water looks brownish red. But at other angles, it looks like the scenes we're discussing.
After all, when they first walk in Lennon gasps: "The water isn't clear!".
But at the end, he's standing right in front of the pool and doesn't notice any clarity.
@ paul e - while I take your points on precedent and think the eko comparison is interesting, I would still make the primary compare/contrast exercise between ben and sayid. They are the only two that we know of that have been through this process, with some potentially significant differences e.g. Level of "innocence", clarity of water. Though I do not think this is the only thing to take away, it is significant that they each have responsibility for putting the other there, though ben less directly.
@ODM: I am with you 100% about the essence/soul of John Locke now being in Sayid. I even posted it on the original 6.01/6.02 blog the day after LOST aired. You, however, said it all much more succinctly and eloquently. I am excited to find out if this is in fact true. Three points to this end that have stuck with me...(1) Sayid never truly dies. The look on Miles face says it all. (2)That parting camera shot of Locke's body on the beach and the next shot being Sayid sitting up asking, "What happened?" (3) Final point being the conversation between New Flight 815 John Locke and Jack in the "lost" baggage area. "Your father isn't really missing, only his body is missing."
Some points I made in my original posting pertain to John's supposed importance to the island and the Christ-like refferences made about him...Lost Supper photos, etc. When Sayid was lifted out of the dirty water, his arms were outstretched like Christ on the crucifix. I also pointed out that this all occured on the "third day" that John Locke's body had been back on the island. We shall see, and Damon and Carlton have alluded that it is NOT Jacob, and we will find out rather quickly what is going on. I am curious what has happened to Sayid's soul, however. And if he is gone, I will miss him.
Resurrected Sayid is Jacob: Too obvious to be true.
A new thought, as I get ready to put up a pre-Lost post on my own blog:
I still think Esau, a.k.a. the Man in Black, both is Smokey and has taken the form of Locke. However, if he's not Smokey and was just leading Ben on, or if he can appear as more than one thing at once (Locke and the Monster; Locke and Christian and Claire) but conversely didn't want to advertise that fact to Ben, then he could've appeared as Jacob to Hurley. Jacob was dead, after all, which seems to qualify him for impersonation by Esau. So perhaps he directed Hurley to bring Sayid's body to the Temple as a sort of Trojan Horse; afraid that Jack's skills might combine with Island magic to heal Sayid, he could both ensure Sayid's death by having the Temple Others drown him in the magic pool and then have Sayid's dead body in the Temple ripe for usage. Yes, I know, Esau doesn't inhabit bodies, he only duplicates them, unless, well, it turns out that we don't know that but have just assumed it and he can do both. Esau might also have figured that when Sayid didn't get revived, due to Jacob's death, the Others would take him out his friends' sight, making it easy enough for him to appear as Sayid, supposedly healed after all, while the body still lay wherever it lay. I realize that if the Man in Black can indeed inhabit bodies as well as impersonate them, it's awfully convenient plotwise for him not to have gone this route with Locke, covering his tracks, but we've seen retrospective inconsistencies in the name of future surprises before.
My prediction is that Sayid is totally himself dude and not Jacob at all. Just thought I'd get this down while I thought it.
What he's doing is 'waking up' from the sideways timeline which is somehow how the two timelines will merge (note Jack seemed to be all deja vu-ish on the plane like he was trying to remember so he could 'wake' up at any time too). Also I reckon what Juliet alluded to in 'It worked' is not Jughead went off etc. but instead she has flashed to the future and the course they are on now is the right one and it things work out for the best this time.
Now I wait to see how totally wrong (yes Hurley is starting to inhabit me) I am. Besides being comment 50 on an old-ish blog entry no-one's going to read this anyway and I can crazy theorise away to my heart's content. But if I'm right I have the satisfaction that I got it down first (not going to happen dude - oh go back to the show Hurley).
Post a Comment