“This doesn’t matter – none of this matters. All that matters is that we felt it.”“I’ve seen something real. I’ve seen the truth.”
“What if this… all this… what if this wasn’t supposed to be our life? What if we had some other life and for some reason, we changed things?”
Oh. My. Freakin. God. WHAT an episode that was… I had to go to a book launch tonight and it went an hour longer than it was supposed to, so I didn’t even start this episode until most of you had already watched it through once, so I apologize for how late this is, but MAN was that episode amazing!!!! Why? Well… DESMOND. But also, it was true wish fulfillment for me, seeing two characters I’ve longed to see for a while… and one of them actually made me leap off the couch, pen and notes flying, and jumping around the room and squealing. I WAS SO HAPPY.
“Ab Aeterno” made me cry sad tears and joyous ones, but this one just filled me with so much happiness… you know that scene at the end of How the Grinch Stole Christmas where his heart grew three sizes? That’s how my chest felt at the end of this episode.
At the end of season 2, Desmond pulled out Dickens’ Our Mutual Friend and inside it a key fell out, as did a letter from Penny. I speculated then that maybe it will all come down to love. And once again, Desmond’s story is a beautiful, beautiful love story… a story that suggests that no matter how much pain we’re in, and no matter what we want to erase, that is not a choice we should be given no matter what. Will things be put back the way they were?
I do believe that love will be the reigning force in all of this: it’s what will make all of the characters do what they do, it’s what will save the world or end it… it’s what makes all of us do what we do.
And with all of the tie-ins to The Constant and Flashes Before Your Eyes, this episode was proof that the writers really DID know where they were going early on.
Lost writers, thank you thank you THANK YOU once again for another amazing episode. WOW, just when I thought maybe only the series finale will beat “Ab Aeterno” they present me with this stunner. I LOVE THIS SHOW!!!!!!!!!
Highlights:
• Desmond’s reaction to Widmore telling him he’s back on the island. That twitch in his cheek made ME afraid.
• Minkowski!! We last saw him bleeding to death of a nosebleed in “The Constant.” (Well, we also saw him in “Meet Kevin Johnson,” but chronology-wise “The Constant” was his last ep.)
• Did you notice how faithful Desmond was to me by NOT taking Minkowski up on his female companionship offer?
• On Widmore’s office wall, there’s a painting of a scale with a white rock and a black rock, just like in Smokey’s cave. There’s also a framed ship that looks like the Elizabeth, the ship that Desmond sailed to the island on.
• “You heard of a band called Drive Shaft?” EEEEE!
• CHAH-LIE!!!!!! Oh my GOD I was so happy to see him!!!!!
• When Charlie seems to describe Claire as the woman he’s meant to be with. Sigh… ♥
• Charlie putting his hand up and Desmond seeing the flash of Not Penny’s Boat. AAAHHH!!
• Daniel is sitting at the piano and oh my god it’s Daniel and WHY ARE YOU PANNING PAST HIM… ugh. It’s a stand-in, isn’t it?
• OH MY GOD OH MY GOD they’re showing the back of Daniel’s head again just as Eloise is walking Desmond away to give him the big “you’re not ready” speech and if the camera would just come around his one shoulder and… oh balls. He’s a stand-in, isn’t he?
• Crap, he’s about to drive away but OH MY GOD there’s Daniel’s reflection in the window!! Will they show him???
• “My name is Daniel. Widmore. We’ve got to talk.” AAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! Best return of a character YET!!!!!
• Daniel describing Charlotte. “It was like I already loved her.” ♥♥
• When Desmond wakes up after touching Penny’s hand. It was like “Flashes Before Your Eyes” all over again.
• That sweet lovely scene between Des and Penny after he’d fainted. ♥♥♥
Answers:
• Many of us thought Desmond wasn’t actually on the plane in “LA X.” Wrong.
The Numbers:
The 815 flight landed at 10:42. The bags are on Carousel 4. When Desmond stopped the MRI you could see the numbers 15 and 46 (23 x 2).
Echoes
This episode had a lot of echoes of previous episodes:
• Widmore tells Desmond the island isn’t done with him yet; something Eloise said to Desmond in “316” last season when they were in the Lamppost Station.
• Eloise tells Desmond, “What happened happened.”
• Daniel says, “It happened to you, too, didn’t it?” which are the first words Minkowski said to Desmond in The Constant.
Did You Notice?:
• Desmond + vulnerability + neediness = me unable to completely focus for the first few minutes.
• The bunny’s name is “Angstrom.” An angstrom is a unit of length used to measure wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. And MAN was that rabbit puffed up… for a moment I thought it had a second head.
• As they stood over BBQ boy’s body and Widmore said, “Zoe, are we ready?” and they brought up Desmond, I yelled NO!! NO WE ARE NOT READY!!
• Did anyone else think when that round thing was glowing in front of Desmond it looked like the scene in “Becoming Part 2” of Buffy when Acathla was about to yank Angel into hell? Gah!!
• Was it just me or did Desmond appear to be making a move on Claire?
• In this reality, Widmore happily offers Des the McCutcheon… in the other, he said he wasn’t worth the alcohol.
• Every flash-sideways has the moment of looking in a mirror; in Desmond’s, he sees his reflection in the window of the police station.
• When Charlie leaves the police station, he and Desmond go drink in “JAX” bar. Heh.
• There’s a sign behind them that says “Exceptional Island Colors”
• Of all things, Charlie asks Desmond if he’s ever been in “consciousness-altering” love.
• In the other universe, Desmond really seems to be one of the people who believes in destiny, but here he says, “There’s always a choice, bruthah” as if he’s more on the side of free will.
• Charlie turns the car into the marina where Desmond was shot.
• For all the crapola CGI they’ve used on the show, the very real effect of the water rushing into the car as it went down was AWESOME.
• When Des couldn’t get Charlie’s seatbelt unbuckled, I thought, “OMG, in every reality Desmond is going to have to watch Charlie drown!”
• Oh hey, hiya, people standing up on that boat as the car went under. I really hate to bug you, because I’m sure you have more important things to do like fishing or standing there staring at seagulls or filming the car in the water so you could post it on YouTube but COULD YOU PLEASE COME OVER TO THE CURB AND FRIGGIN’ HELP ALREADY?!
• The nurse asks Desmond if he has any metal on him before doing the MRI, and that’s the same questions that guy was asking Widmore before they put Desmond in the chamber.
• Des looked like Hannibal Lecter in that chamber.
• Oh Jack… so helpful last week… so unhelpful this week. But still lookin’ hot. What IS IT about you? Those greying sideburns??
• Daniel’s playing the Fantaisie-Impromptu in C# Minor (which had better be important or else it looks like it’s the ONLY piece of classical music the writers know about).
• The sideways world, for Eloise, is the world of GIANT HAIR.
• Eloise knows Desmond the moment she sees him.
• Penny is doing the Tour de Stade that Jack and Desmond were both doing when they first met in “Man of Science, Man of Faith.”
• Besides Desmond, it's the two dead characters who can see that things aren't right in the sideways world.
• Zoe says that Desmond has changed in 20 minutes… 20 minutes is the same time Desmond said it would take for Charlie to decide to leave the bar and be in a 5-star hotel. So much can change in 20 minutes…
• Me to Sayid as he held a gun to Zoe: Shoot her!!! SHOOT HER!!!!
• So I did one of those Google Street Map searches on the corner of Sweetzer and Melrose, and there’s a little eatery called Dolce. Will that be where Desmond and Penny meet? Sweet!!
So Many Questions...
• Does Cusick have a new scar beside his right eyebrow, or is that a phony scar on Desmond from the Ben tussle?
• Why exactly is Widmore showing Jin all of this? Originally it seemed they just wanted him there so they could figure out where the EM pockets were on the island because Jin had made the maps. But now… why is he still there?
• Why did Widmore need to look at the charred remains of that guy?! Does he enjoy gore or something?
• What sacrifice is Desmond going to be asked to make?
• Is Eloise like Desmond? Can she see other worlds? Is she aware of what’s happening? In the original world, Desmond really did want Widmore’s approval more than anything. Now he’s got it… but he doesn’t have Penny. She points out that he got what he wanted, but he lost what he had (to quote Gavin Friday).
• Was… was Daniel wearing… leather pants?!
• Is it possible Daniel is the musician who programmed the Good Vibrations key sequence in the Looking-Glass station?
• So… if Daniel is Eloise and Charles’ son, and he was born before Penny, then it means Widmore had an affair with a woman and Penny was the result. Did Eloise take him back after it happened, or did things happen differently? Did he get Eloise pregnant first, then have another wife, then left her for Eloise?
• If Sayid has no emotions inside him, why didn’t he just shoot Zoe? (And I ask that for more than me just wanting him to.)
• “I just need to show them something.” AAHH!! So when Desmond became conscious again, do we assume that the consciousness of island Desmond has moved into that Desmond and he now retains all of the memories of the other one? Was the Desmond who’s had a child with Penny the one asking her out for coffee?
And tomorrow at noon I will once again be participating in the Globe and Mail Lost chat from noon to 1pm EST. Go here to ask questions and comment. See you there!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
Next week on Lost:
416 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 416 Newer› Newest»OK, OK, great episode. But little nitpick. English people DO NOT SAY things like "on the corner of Sweetzer and Melrose". We don't abbreviate street names like that. And our streets don't run in grid patterns, so we don't talk about "the corner" like that. GRRRR!
By the way, SWEETZER is also the name of an independent film staring Jorge Garcia as a sex addict.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WQq_anEz7w
@Gracie: Maybe Widmore was such a bastard because Penny is his daughter and Desmond is his son.
Nonononono!!!! This is not true, cannot be true, and is the only thing I can think of right now that would make me hate Lost.
@Gracie: regarding the Charlie-not-behaving-like-a-junkie thing:
Thank you! I was hoping at least one other person here would agree with me on this one. And if you have experience with junkies, you know just how badly they dropped the ball in The Moth and the episodes that followed. Charlie was never as sick as he should have been!
@S. Penguin: If the events of the AU diverge from the OT at the precise point of The Incident in 1977 as we've been led to believe, then maybe AU Eloise STILL HAS Daniel's journal that she retrieved from his on-island body in 1977. So she knows EVERYTHING that went down and knows that her OT self was successful in manipulating everything so that the Incident occurred exactly as it was "supposed to" and the AU was created to save Daniel's life. And AU Eloise will do what she can to preserve/defend the existence of the AU so as to preserve/defend Daniel -- all a mother's penance for shooting her son in the first place...
I like this theory! And you are right; if the island diverged from the OT in 1977, of course she would still have that journal! And she'd also have the memory of shooting Daniel.
But what does she mean when she tells Desmond that his interest in Penny is "a violation" and that he's "not ready yet"? It seems to me that she knows a lot that is not in that journal.
Up until the AU split, I could see her knowledge being explained by things in the journal. But now? How does she know the things that she knows? How does she know what needs to be done if she is trying to preserve the AU?
And is Widmore in it with her? I can definitely see why he'd want to preserve it as well. I do think that at some point in time, she must have shared the journal with him. This would explain his response to Des in OT. But how do they know what has to happen now?
Word Verf: monsts - those scary things always found with ers.
@Paticus: could it be that the EM box looks like the cabin because Widmore plans to trap the MIB inside it? And perhaps that's what the cabin was for in the first place?
Oh, yes. I really like this idea. Perhaps there is something about the electromagnetic energy (like the pylons) that can keep/trap MiB in only his smokey state - not allowing him to take human form and thereby trapping him on the Island. So maybe when Desmond turned the key, it released him? When was the last time we saw MiB as a man - Richard, right? Was there something that happened between then and now that trapped Smokey? This is all wild, outrageous supposition with, I'm sure, a million holes you will all be willing to point out, but I'm just throwing my thoughts out there.
My assumption re: Daniel and Penny.
On the reality we're more familiar with, Eloise was pregnant but after the events of the Island broke up with Widmore and possibly married a man named Farraday, or at least used that name on a birth certificate. Widmore married Penny's mother and raised his daughter.
VW - 'drove' - what Hurley did to the VW.
On sideways world, Widmore and Eloise didn't have the same Island experience, married and raised Daniel. Widmore had an affair with someone named Milton and fathered, Penny, who was raised by her mother. The affair did not end his marriage to Eloise.
Daniel/Penny
Question: how do we really know Daniel is older than Penny?
Just got my blog up for anyone interested!
http://sagaciouspenguin.blogspot.com/
Excerpt for discussion:
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INCIDENT & THE ULTIMATE COURSE CORRECTION: So if Faraday was right, then when Jughead detonated, the Altered Universe was born. But if Eloise was right (in 3.08 [Flashes Before Your Eyes]) then fate has a way of course correcting so that no matter how you try and change the past, things work out the same. At the moment we know that this process of course correction is at least somewhat underway: afterall, even though the AU was created, the Original Timeline still exists. So if fate/time is attempting to make the ultimate course correction of Jack and Faraday's explosive causality violation, then perhaps only one of the two universes will be able to survive in the end if time/space is to be prevented from collapsing. And if so, then either one universe is going to have to do the noble thing and sacrifice itself for the sake of time/space, or else then it's every universe for itself. In the latter case, then perhaps the two Eloises are both at odds with each other, each the keeper of her own timeline and willing to do whatever it takes to make sure her timeline is carefully preserved (even if, for OT Eloise, this means sacrificing her son). I suspect this week's episode title, "Happily Ever After," will ultimately prove either prophetic or ironic. If prophetic, then the AU is the future for which our OT heroes will nobley and heroically sacrifice themselves. If ironic, then the seemingly "better lives" that many of our characters are living in the AU are doomed to be obliterated for the preservation of the OT, held aloft on the altar as an example of why the Island and its cork-function are so important to the preservation of life as we know it. Either way, the stakes are clearly bigger than just the agendas of either Jacob or the Man In Black.
@ Rainer:
While we really don't know the extent of Daniel's notes on the possibility of an altered timeline or time travel or really anything, you're definitely right that she's probably gone in search of further knowledge on the topics and hence (in both timelines) become an expert on temporal mechanics and universe causality and "course correction." I suppose the big remaining question would be has something or someone else given her an actual supernatural power that's made her able to "know" things, or is she just super-well researched on Daniel's and others' super-well laid out ideas and theories?
If she does indeed have Daniel's OT journal in the AU, then she would know that it was POSSIBLE to change things from having shot her son in the past. She would know what Daniel and Jack were attempting to do, and having seen the blast on-Island back in 1977 she might know or at least be convinced that it worked. And therefore (with an exact opposite agenda from OT Eloise's) has worked every day to keep Daniel away from Science, away from Desmond, etc. So lines like "a violation," she means Desmond is attempting to cross boundaries between the universes, and she is very against that. What's he not ready for? The same thing. Maybe in her opinion, he'll never be ready...
Just thoughts and speculation, but if she does have the journal in both timelines, then her predicting the death of red-shoe man is really the most supernatural thing she's ever done...
At any rate, it's my best guess for how they could clean up her story in a "simple," visual way (by having AU Eloise pull out the journal at some point) since I doubt she'll be getting her whole own episode with so few left... though that could be a damn good episode...
WAY late commenting and of course all has been said already.
I'm loving Penguin and Paticus's ideas. When they put Desmond in that chair, I thought to myself "OMG, he's the one in the chair in Jacob's cabin!" But then it didn't happen. But, as it's been said before, maybe it will. Maybe that's how Widmore will trap MIB. Now how the hell that ties BACK to a previous time on the island is beyond me. LOL
And I thought FOR SURE Daniel was going to say to Daniel..."and...there's also THIS..." and show him the If anything goes wrong Desmond Hume is my constant line. Alas, no.
Did anyone else think the writers were totally duping us in the beginning by making us think Widmore was referring to CHARLIE as his son when he had Desmond pick him up? I was like WHOA. Then Desmond said to Eloise, "DS will not be performing along side your son."
Anyway, like Nikki, I felt such JOY in this episode. The chemistry between Des and Penny...just amazing. I found myself all curled up on the couch, hands on my mouth, smiling all giddy-like. That a show could evoke such feelings like that is just amazing and another reason why this show means so much to me.
I've only seen it once but I'll definitely watch again before next week. I also need to listen to the Geronimo Jacksbeard podcast. They may enlighten us on some things.
@ S. Penguin: At any rate, it's my best guess for how they could clean up her story in a "simple," visual way (by having AU Eloise pull out the journal at some point) since I doubt she'll be getting her whole own episode with so few left... though that could be a damn good episode...
Yeah, I'd love to see that one! I have long found Eloise to be an extremely intriguing character; as a keeper of gates/ways, she fits into a very interesting mythological role. And I quite like the idea that the Eloise in each timeline is committed to preserving the one that she is in.
Next question: is Eloise aware, then, that in effect she is working against herself? And how do you outsmart yourself? (That is actually a very stupid question; I seem to outsmart myself every other time I put down my keys;) )
Awesome discussion! I had a couple things to add/ask--I'm wondering if Libby is going to make an appearance next week in the Hurley episode? I wonder if her time in the psychiatric ward will finally be addressed--perhaps she had some of Desmond's gifts "of sight" during that time as well?
Also, I have a question about names on Lost. It's sort of strange that the writers would name two central characters variations of the same name, without having a reason: Charles/Charlie; John/Jack; plus there was another Charlotte (the Australian psychic's daughter from Season Two). I totally thought, over the years, that this was way more significant, because it's kind of a specific choice (it's not like they ran out of names). But I've finally resigned myself to the fact that it's not.
Did anyone else find this odd?
I couldn't write all day, the wifi was out all evening, and now there are 316 (Ajira bingo!) comments. Oy.
Too many comments to read though, so not sure if this is mentioned by anyone but, wasn't a big deal made of Des wearing a wedding ring in LA X and now there was a specific exchange about how he didn't have a wedding band on when he first got in the limo? This episode was filmed after the first episode aired, so was this the PTB covered up their mistake in the first episode? Are we all crazy? Just me?
Oh boy... have I missed out on some discussion! Crazy nursing school and the long, tiring mornings at the hospital! 200+ comments already?!!?!! I’ve got some catching up to do.
@Nikki: I can’t believe I didn’t think about “I Will Remember You”! That’s definitely one of my top 5 Angel episodes, you know, next to the episode “Through the Looking Glass” with Numfar’s Dance of Joy! I totally see the connection now that you mention it.
@Teebore: I’m glad you understand where I’m coming from with my Superman link (“FTMWHE” [love the acronym you used, by the way!])! I, too, have been viewing the flash sideways as a sort of “idealized” life for the Losties, an almost sort of “artificial heaven”, if you will. Alas, nothing is ever perfect, and there are notable sad points like the love connections between Desmond/Penny, Charlie/Claire, Faraday/Charlotte, etc.
I use the term “artificial heaven” because I also want to reference a lesser known Marvel comic book mini-series trilogy – Earth X, Universe X, and Paradise X. This trilogy tells a sort of mythology/second-coming story in which a known fallen hero, Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell, returns to the realm of the living and essentially becomes God, or at the least, a Christ-esque figure. He then creates a sort of pocket-universe which he deems “Heaven” where the diseased live out their own individual “idealized” version of heaven. It soon proves to serve as some sort of control for Captain Marvel as an ulterior motive. The diseased heroes essentially tear from their individual heavens because they realize that, although they live an “idealized” life, it still has its quirky imperfections that irk them because it’s overtly surreal. And a revolution against “God” ensues.
If you’re up for the task, I recommend reading the series if you’re up for it. I’ll say it’s not exactly as moving as “FTMWHE”, but an interesting read, nonetheless.
My point to all of this is coming back to what many have been a-chattering about for the past 50-100-ish comments…
Eloise. Could she be the true entity that is pulling the strings? Since the reveal of Jacob and MIB/FLocke, at last season’s finale and so far this season, I’ve felt as if Jacob has been MIB’s guard, but not the actual Warden. Could Eloise be the Warden of the island? Or… could she be “God” (a la my reference to the Earth X trilogy)? Maybe not God in this case, but a sort of overseer of this… thing, we call the Island.
@Nikki: Hm... well, her HAIR is certainly closer to God, that's for sure. ;) I do like this idea!!
I laughed out loud when I read this!
Her actions last night were so… omniscient. And like other commenters have said, Eloise has also shown this sort of omniscience in “Flashes Before Your Eyes” (omni-science? Heh!). Is Eloise overlord of the universe that Daniel may have created
My other question: does she abide by the same rules as Desmond has? When Desmond touched Penny (his Constant, if you will), he conscious-travelled back to his reality. If she does follow these rules, who might be her Constant? Daniel? Desmond? …Widmore?!
I also question if Widmore and Eloise are working together. Can anyone remind me of the conversation the two had outside of the hospital last season? I can’t for the life of me remember it.
Quick hits (pun-pre-intended):
-Desmond beating Widmore with an IV pole: AWESOME. Widmore has long been overdo for a punch to the face, but this will suffice too!
-Skinny Leather Ties: @Nikki: 0.1% cooler? Ahahahaha
-[Hot] Graying-Jack: Is it just me, or has his grayed appearance (just appearance) in the sideways universe have a sort of Christian Shephard feel to it?
-@Donna S.: "oh, so they're bringing raptors to the island..." AHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA I am so with you on that! That’s exactly what I was thinking! The Jurassic Park theme was playing in my head, and then expelled out of my mouth… “dun-DUN, dun-DUN, na-na-nah na-na-nah-NAH!!!!” Though I did kinda think of Jacob’s cabin because of the chair in the middle of the room.
-@Jazzygirl: “Maybe that's how Widmore will trap MIB” I was thinking the same thing, at least something along the same lines. In retrospect, I think it’s a possibility that the mumbling that Locke heard in Jacob’s cabin could have been the MIB trapped somehow.
@NurseBrian
According to Lostpedia:
After this, Charles traveled to Los Angeles and appeared at the Long Beach hospital where Desmond was being treated for his gunshot wound. Here, he met up with his old friend, Eloise Hawking, who informed him that Desmond was recovering, to which he indicated that he was pleased, and Penny was inside and that he should go see her. Charles stated that he had sacrificed his relationship with Penny. It is then revealed that Eloise knew that sending Daniel to the island would lead to his death, stating that it was she who had made a sacrifice. Charles interrupts her saying "He was my son too, Eloise." Angered by this remark, Eloise slapped Charles in the face and walked off. ("The Variable")
@Ali Bags: Thanks! I wasn't sure if those two made any cryptic remarks regarding the island and Desmond's importance. But I guess it was more about Widmore and Hawking's kids.
WV: groma - what you say to your vertically challenged mother
Daniel tells Desmond that the equations in his journal are advanced quantum mechanics. Now, I am somewhat familiar, conceptually if not mathematically, with some of quantum mechanics. And it allows for what is called "superposition", in which two things can be in two different states at the some time - until they are observed, at which point the two possibilities - which both exist - collapse into one.
This is an extreme oversimplification of some very complex material. But it is a nice description of what the two timelines appear to be. They are both true, at least until someone observes them from outside the system!
I am going to postulate that Desmond will become that observer. I think that Eloise and Widmore know damned good and well what is happening, but I also think that they are refraining from observing the system, thereby rendering one possibility true and causing the other to vanish. And I think that Desmond's awareness of specifics in both timelines is the "violation" that Eloise was speaking of.
She wants him to stop trying to find Penny, because then he will become aware of the specifics of both timelines at the same time, will be able to determine which is what is "supposed" to happen, and one of the two alternatives will cease to exist.
Now this is all well and good up to a point, but leaves out the conflict between Jacob and MiB. But I think that conflict plays into this scenario as well; perhaps in one timeline, Jacob wins, and in the other, MiB does.
Either way, from a purely subjective viewpoint in either timeline, Desmond's unwillingness or inability to cooperate will cause "everyone we know and love to cease to exist." Even though they will still exist in the remaining timeline, again, from a subjective point of view of someone in the timeline that ceases to exist, they don't.
I think my head is going to explode now. This always happens when I mess with ideas grounded in quantum physics...
Word verf: anizat - where ani is. "ainzat the store."
@Rainier:
They are both true, at least until someone observes them from outside the system!
I remember sitting in a Philosophy class and discussing superposition (I know, physics in PHILOSOPHY class?). We talked about two billiard balls, red and white. We then questioned what would happen if we hit the white ball with INCREDIBLE force toward the red ball. Some of us entertained the idea of the two balls combining into one ball (pink); meaning the two billiard balls were able to occupy the same space at the same time.
I have a picture that I'll try and post tomorrow.
I'm vaguely familiar with quantum physics (stress on vaguely). If I remember right, in quantum physics the idea is that something like Superposition (or any principle of quantum physics) can only be achieved in the absence of an observer, and some infer that when an observer is introduced into the scenario, the principles of quantum physics cease to exist. This would therefore cue up regular physics, in that no two objects can occupy the same space. Some believe that this "disappearance" is attributed to some sort of "divine intervention".
I'm not completely sure if this is accurate, so I may be wrong.
Though if it sticks, I'd think Desmond's new role as an observer (as you postulate) may cause a mass collapse of the Sideways universe. A simple thing as shear knowledge of the two worlds may not fly in the realm of television, which may explain the use of the "love" concept.
Also, is the "love" concept for jumping realities similar to that of a "constant" for time traveling in the same timeline? It seems so with the Penny/Desmond connection.
EXTRA: It's been a while since I've watched it, but I'm pretty sure the concepts of superpostion is addressed in the movie/DVD What the Bleep Do We Know!? & What the Bleep!? - Down the Rabbit Hole. If anyone else has the movie, I suggest viewing it again (I know I will this weekend), or viewing it for the first time, because it touches on basic quantum physics principles.
IMDB link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0399877/
Interesting movie to watch, nonetheless!
Jeez, I've been mentioning lots of outside references! Time for bed!
@ Nurse Brian: It's been a while since I've watched it, but I'm pretty sure the concepts of superpostion is addressed in the movie/DVD What the Bleep Do We Know!? & What the Bleep!? - Down the Rabbit Hole. If anyone else has the movie, I suggest viewing it again (I know I will this weekend), or viewing it for the first time, because it touches on basic quantum physics principles.
I'll have to watch that! I've never seen it.
The principle does come into philosophy sometimes, usually via Schrodinger's cat. Schrodinger was a physicist who came up with this thought experiment, which actually results in a paradox that is absurd outside the realm of quantum physics: You have a cat in a sealed box. In the box with the cat is a vial of cyanide, hooked up to a Geiger counter, and a bit of some radioactive substance. Over say, an hour, the radioactive stuff either will or will not emit a particle that will cause the counter to trip, which causes the vial to release the poison, which kills the cat. Under the rules posited by a certain school of quantum physics, the cat is both alive and dead (or neither alive nor dead, take your pick, I've heard it both ways) until the box is opened and the cat is observed to be alive or dead. This is, of course, absurd, which was Schrodinger's point. This was in response to something said by Einstein.
And this brings us to entanglement, which could also bring us to love. But I'm too tired to get much into entanglement right now, and I'd have to look at it again, anyway. But I do know that it suggests that two widely separate particles may, by virtue of previous contact, effect one another from a great distance. Sound familiar?
Time to sleep.
That big, beautiful brown eye! Oh, this is gonna be goood!! Our wild card is back!
Nikki, loved your remarks. "Dr. Linus" was my favorite, up till this one. Right up there with "Flashes before your eyes" and "The Constant", my all time favorite ep.
There is something about this Zoe chick that reminds me of early Juliet (when I didn't like her). I think it's her lack of emotion.
Minkowsky! He did work for ol' Chuck in the real world, didn't he. It's so fun how they are tying these character's together.
Wwhaat?? Des isn't married? Was the ring he had on in the season premiere a red herring, or just a production error? I'm confused. (not that hard to do).
Only in a sideways universe can Charles Whidmore be a nice guy! And why is he alive?
Drive Shaft playing along side Daniel...hahahaha
"There's always a choice, brothah"
You mentioned this too, Nikki, why in the heck didn't anyone come down and help at the dock??Obviously someone witnessed it, since there were sirens in the background, but gee wiz, what ever happened to the "Good Samaritan" clause. Has our society degenerated that much? So sad.
Is it my imagination, or is the sidways world more dull, and washed out looking? It's as if they are using a cooling filter, to make even the sun not seem as bright.
As my son said (who got to watch the ep before me), "Doesn't matter what universe you're in, Mrs. Hawking never changes." Yup
If Des has a driver, why was he in his 'own' car when they crashed?
Why did Des go with Sayid? Is that part of the plan, part of the "sacrifice"?
I really enjoyed this ep. It was quite providential that I just happened to be watching "Thru the Looking Glass" with my husband Tues. night. Then I watched this ep, and saw Des with Charlie again. Wow, pretty cool.
I'm glad I had a chance to respond to this ep, since I'm like 4 blogs behind. I was sick, then on vacation, then my husband was sick. You know, life happens. But I'm gonna try to do some catching up. It'll take awhile, but it's good to be back!
@Susan-"...I am getting tired of Dominic Monaghan's attempts at playing a character way removed from Merry/loveable Charlie. He's the most annoying character on Flashforward, and the FS Charlie is a little too much like Simon."
I couldn't agree more.
@Rainier-"...nice if we could somehow have the best of both worlds..." I totally got this idea when I read this, how this could totally be where they are going. Think about it, in the origional world, everybody's life sucks, mostly, and in the sideways world, everyone gets what they want, mostly. So it definitely seems like they need some balance here, like the good-side and bad-side need to 'rise and converge'.
Oh, and with Charlie, I'm sure he got a good dose of some drug while he was in the hospital. And, oh yeah, I predict that Charlie is gonna run into Claire while he is running around the hospital...we'll see.
@DavidB226Morris-I loved all you had to say, even if it wasn't what you origionally had. Sometimes off the cuff is better. Very good!
With all the chats about Eloise, I wonder, has she always been the time police, or is this a result of the incident? When she lived on the island, she certainly didn't know everything, and was just along for the ride, but she was definitely in control. When we see her later, off-island with Daniel, that's when she seems to be different. What happened?
word verif-muleg-"Muleg is so sore after wondering around Seattle all day while my son was at Sakura Con!"
hey y'all...Cloe here...
Did anyone else notice the nurse who asked Desmond if he had hallucinations looked very much like Ruth from Catch 22, the girl Des left a week before their wedding?
RE: Reflections - anyone else notice that there was no reflection for Charlie, or Minkowski, and when there was opportunity for a mirror reflection for Daniel, it is completely black? Is that because they are dead in the OT?
And to take the point a bit further, I do not remember a reflection for Claire (let me know if you do), and for Sayid, though we saw his reflection, he didn't seem to notice it. Is that because they are claimed?
And, of course, there was a reflection in the refrigerator room, for Jin, but he didn't seem to notice it either - so that blows the dead, and claimed theory away. Particularly since Locke DID see his reflection.
But, as we have been saying, the noticing of the reflections may be unique to the candidates (with the exception of Locke). Who are:
4 - Locke - Dead & crossed off
8 - Reyes
15 - Sawyer
16 - Jarrah - Claimed
23 - Jack
42 - Kwon
51 - Kate
Is it possible the 6th one is Hume? I personally don't think so - I think he is too special - but definitely worth exploring. Or is Ilana still counting Sayid?
JS - ...and when there was opportunity for a mirror reflection for Daniel, it is completely black? Is that because they are dead in the OT?
You so smart! I hadn't noticed the Charlie one but it was quite pointed, the black reflection of Daniel. Whew - that was the sentence of a woman who hasn't yet had coffee.
If this sideways world comes to an end, I feel bad for all the people who have things going well for them like Sayid and Locke.
Very little of what I just posted made any sense.
Sorry if someone already mentioned this in the comments and I missed it, but is there any chance Eloise is the one orchestrating all this? She certainly seems to be more aware of what's going on than anyone else, and thinks she knows what's "supposed" to happen.
Desmond episodes are my favorite!
Rainier said...
@Gracie: regarding the Charlie-not-behaving-like-a-junkie thing:
Thank you! I was hoping at least one other person here would agree with me on this one. And if you have experience with junkies, you know just how badly they dropped the ball in The Moth and the episodes that followed. Charlie was never as sick as he should have been!
Totally agreed -- I thought when he bolted out of the court house he was on his way to get a fix -- not just a drink.
@Rainer Thank you! I was hoping at least one other person here would agree with me on this one. And if you have experience with junkies, you know just how badly they dropped the ball in The Moth and the episodes that followed. Charlie was never as sick as he should have been!
I totally agree with you in regards to the AU, I've had to watch my wife withdraw from opiates (clonopin/Codein) and you're absolutely right that they missed the ball when he walks out of the courthouse and goes into a bar.
But maybe the Island's healing properties affected the way Charlie's body reacted to the heroine withdrawal on the Island. If it can cure cancer and paralysis, withdrawal should be a cinch :)
WV: blextro-pimped out brother of the mistro
@Cloe: I didn't feel that way. I'm not sure which nurse it was, but the woman who played 'Nurse Tyra' also played 'Nurse Susie' in three Hurley episodes (at Santa Rosa).
@JS: In my opinion, Sayid is still counted. While claimed, he remains a candidate, bodily somewhat, though not the eventual replacement. Since he was once a candidate, I think he remains one.
Jacob tells Ilana there are 6 candidates remaining. One of them ends up being Sayid, which she escorts back. She still claims there to be 6 candidates, either she counts Sayid or a new candidate has been included.
Future episode: The Last Recruit.
@Joan: Do people usually make sense when they haven't had their morning brew? ...or on Lost blogs?
...or on Lost blogs WHEN they haven't had coffee, that's just the worse! Right?
@Crazyinlost...it is not just you. Everything in the sidways world is a bit duller for sure. I've been thinking about this for a few episodes now. It's much less brilliant, almost like you need to change the color-tuning on your TV. Thanks for mentioning it.
Also, I read this on "neverseenlost", but he talks about when Desmond goes to see Penny at the stadium...wasn't she supposed to be at Eloise's big charity event that night? DOH!
I love these blogs...all the things that everyone else notices that I am not able to.
@Lisa/crazyinlost: We have to remember that in the flash-sideways, we're seeing their normal lives. They're not all exciting. We know them to have crashed on a freaking magical island!
@Lisa: Indeed about Penny... which makes think two likely options:
1. She's attending later (now ditching for coffee) or earlier; or,
2. Penny Milton was not that Penny.
--I guess it could be that she decided not to go--
@ Nurse Brian: If I remember right, in quantum physics the idea is that something like Superposition (or any principle of quantum physics) can only be achieved in the absence of an observer, and some infer that when an observer is introduced into the scenario, the principles of quantum physics cease to exist. This would therefore cue up regular physics, in that no two objects can occupy the same space. Some believe that this "disappearance" is attributed to some sort of "divine intervention".
I don't believe that any of the principles of quantum physics "cease to exist" upon observation. This is a misapprehension about quantum physics from people who don't really understand it. (I don't understand it either, but I know a little more than most people!)
There are two reasons for this. First, quantum physics deals solely with subatomic particles, where the rules are just a bit different.
Second, by the time you have actually made your measurement/observation of something at the subatomic level, the system has already changed. This seems paradoxical but is not; you simply are not able to view this in real time, because things are happening far, far too quickly to perceive.
So the possibilities inherent in the state of a particle do collapse into the observed sate upon observation, but this only holds true for the precise moment that the measurement is made.
Bringing any kind of "divine intervention" into this is just silly!
@Benny - I'm not suggesting that there has never been an error in LOST, I'm just saying that I, personally do not believe that the wedding ring is a prop error. Damon Lindelof retweeted a comment about it, which seems to lend some credit to the idea that it was significant. You can think it's a prop error if you like, I just choose to believe that it has more significance than that. We don't have long to wait to see the outcome.
While I've been posting some comments about quantum mechanics, and I think they are the smartest ideas that I personally have ever had about Lost, I do want to say that I also find that any science that depends solely on mathematical equations to draw conclusions that cannot be verified by direct observation makes me uncomfortable. Maybe it is because I am not such a mathematical genius myself, or maybe I just prefer things that can be directly experimented on, but quantum mechanics seems a lot like scientific voodoo to me. It does, however, make for some fun speculative fiction.
Word verf - nosay: 1) I'm not telling; 2) Jin in the fridge, after Keamy ties him up and puts duct tape over his mouth; 3) I don't know (Sp.)
@Joan Crawford - Thanks for the complement, but I mostly just read way too many LOST sites and come back here to report. Every once in a while I have an original idea, but only until I read a better one. :)
@Rainier: Charlie was never as sick as he should have been!
Rad mentioned this as well, but on the island at least, we can chalk up his easy withdrawal to magical island healing properties.
In the flash sideways, I suppose we could pin his lack of an immediate desire for a fix on his experience with "consciousness-altering" love on the plane. It did, after all, alter his consciousness...
@Nurse Brian: I've read the Earth X trilogy. I thoroughly enjoyed Earth X proper, but felt the next two series got a little messier and less focused, but there's definitely some interesting Lost parallels to be found there.
@Benny: It probably doesn't matter in the long run, but I'm thinking "Penny Milton" does not equal "Penny Widmore". I think Penny Milton is just some random person on a guest list who was mentioned only so Desmond would overhear the name "Penny" and think of his peek into the other universe.
I could very well be wrong, but that just seems like the simplest explanation this late in the game.
@Benny – (not to call you out, but you did respond to my post....) the other point I was making was about the nature of the reflections –
- candidates v. non-candidates (Jin? Locke? Desmond?),
- one look v. two (Jack, Desmond, Sawyer)
- claimed (Sayid) v. not claimed (everyone else),
- straight forward (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Desmond) v. distorted or unnoticed (Sawyer, Jin, Sayid),
- dead (Locke) v. mostly dead (Sayid) v. alive (everyone else)?
Perhaps I am trying to apply logic where it doesn't exist. But I think it does
@Joan Crawford – I was going to say I sold my self short since I actually do have original ideas, but I would advise you not to listen to anything I say about myself. I am an unreliable narrator generally, and often plain wrong when it comes to what I do and do not know. ^-^
Great discussion as always.
Here is my working theory
When Juliet detonated the nuclear device there was no explosion. There was a simultaneous release of the nuclear energy and the magnetic energy. These two energies canceled one another out and the magnetic/magical properties of the island were negated.
This had a couple of effects
• MIB was free to leave
• Dharma abandoned their research since the magnetic properties of the island were gone
• With MIB gone the Others were free to leave as well
• The magnetic energy is what moved the island around and also kept it afloat. With this energy gone the island slowly descended back beneath the waves (not sure how long this process would have taken)
So a pregnant Eloise leaves the Island with Charles. She has Daniel's original journal with all the information about time travel, Desmond and his constant Penny. She knows Desmond is special and could change everything and is visibly shaken when she sees him in person. In this "spinter" universe she steers Daniel towards his true passion for music instead of science. Eloise is aware that this timeline is wrong and shouldn't exist, but her love for Daniel and knowledge that she has already sent him to his death once has prevented her from taking any action to correct things. She does her best to prevent Des from ever meeting Penny because any contact with his constant could cause the walls of that universe to begin to crumble around her.
Still working on:
• Is Eloise working with MIB? She mentions that Desmond's attempts to meet Penny are a "Violation". Was there an agreement with MIB that the losties would be granted what they wanted most? Jack resolving daddy issues. Des has Charles' respect. Claire has her baby...
• After Des fainted did his consciousnesses flip flop? I tend to think they merged and he is now aware of both timelines to some degree. He is a man on a mission.
• What role does this "Consciousness altering love" play in the grand scheme of things. It set the wheels in motion for Des to first meet Eloise and then Penny
Okay! Work computer is now cooperating again and boy do I have a lot to say... sorry if it's repetative but this is IMO the best episode of this season so far (so sorry Ab Aeterno lovers!)
@ Rufus
Nice Buffy reference!
“Now can someone physically cross the time lines? I'm thinking it could be important if, say someone like Locke could cross into the MiB's timeline.”
Oooohhh! How awesome would that be! FLocke vs. Locke! Intriguing!
@JS said…
BTW – I am grateful to Darlton for giving me the finale for my birthday. On the 23rd I’ll be 42. I’m a number!
I am super jealous! I wanna be a number!!!
@Fred said…
“Kind of like a portkey in Harry Potter.” NICE!
“So what's with Desmond going off with Sayid?”
A couple of people (JS, Jennifer S., etc.) have asked this and I didn’t think anything of it at first because Desmond was so adamant that Widmore didn’t need to explain anything. That he understood what he had to do. Maybe he knows that if he goes with Sayid, he will find the others and explain to them what is happening?
Al Hsu said...
Next ep has got to be Hurley and Libby!
I didn’t think of this, but that would be completely and totally awesome! And I agree with your post that all these seemingly insignificant, fan-favorite, return characters really are meaningful to explaining the storyline.
@JackFan said...
the connection between Des & Penny agreeing to meet for coffee in SW world and Juliet's dying words to Sawyer?
I remember that Juliet's "it worked" was said along with something about getting coffee-- but I don't remember Juliet's specific words.
“We can go dutch.” Oh Juliet… and yes, my heart skipped a beat when this exchange happened (same thing when Dan mentioned Charlotte and chocolate!)!
@lots of you-RE: Charlie’s lack of junkie behavior
Although I completely agree that the behavior Charlie exhibits in this episode is not your typical/average junkie behavior, it did not rub me the wrong way. This lack of full-blown withdrawal symptoms was also presented in Season 1 (jack had to give him meds to bring him down, but it still wasn’t as bad in real life) and Charlie seemed to beat the odds because of the island (healing powers, The Moth cave-in). I saw those things in this episode as well. I mean if we are all (well most of us) saying that LOST is going to come down to LOVE, then isn’t this a great example of the power of love? One moment you think you’re dying cuz you are a junkie and then you experience consciousness altering love… seems like a great motivator or reason to kick the habit or to be able to focus on something other than your next fix.
Has anyone noticed that the 3 people that we have seen so far have a FS bleed through are Desmond, Charlie, and Daniel – now there may be more to come, but I do find it interesting that we all have known that Desmond is special because he turned the fail-safe key exposing himself to massive amounts of electromagnetism. What’s interesting to me is that we all forgot or seemed to forget that Charlie was technically inside the hatch when it went kaboom and that Daniel has been exposing himself to electromagnetism for years which caused his memory loss. Is there anyone else we can think of that may have a bipartisan relationship to the worlds due to this? The only other two I can think of are Eko and Locke (dead and sorta dead) I wonder if Eko is off somewhere in Nigeria thinking about building a church on a beach…
vw: vitor- the torture of overly long V commercials
Just read something of interest and wanted to share with you fabulous, crazy people. Todd VanDer Werff, writing for the LA Times, made some excellent points about the LOST fandom and our feelings about Season 6 and the inevitable *sniff* end. Here's the opening of his column and a full link at the end:
"If you did not like "Happily Ever After," then I'm pretty sure we can't be Internet friends anymore. Don't get me wrong. I respect your point of view. I'm sure you're a great person. You're just wrong about this and probably everything else. I mean, I try not to be a hard-liner. I try not to let my passions overwhelm me. And, obviously, you all know how I feel about Desmond. (The words "man crush" do not even begin to explain it.) But "Happily Ever After" is just a sublime episode of television. If you watch the medium for great characters or great moments or the construction of great worlds, I'd wager you felt roughly similar to me. If you're just in this for answers to every little question you have, well, it's probably time to get off the boat, I'd wager.
I mean, sure, "Happily Ever After" has its answers (or, more accurately, its suggestions about what's going on), but it's also something of a line in the sand, asking if you care more about figuring out just what the ins and outs of the Island are about or if you care more about seeing how the characters the Island drew to it try to deal with its impact on their lives. I certainly don't begrudge the people who feel the show owes them answers their feelings. I just don't, ultimately, understand that point of view. I like the mysteries, sure, and if the show somehow wraps everything up in a way that explains away absolutely every little bit of information, all the better. But what I most want is to see the ultimate fates of these characters, to see them have endings that fit who they've become (or been revealed to be) over the course of six seasons."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/04/lost-up-in-the-air-with-desmond-hume.html
JS said...
@Gracie - BAMF = Bad Ass Mother shut-your-mouth!
Me: Ahem. Carefully. I just sent an email to Rainier in which I explained that I have no idea how I missed this, but rather thought it must be a blog thing from before I started posting. IN FACT, Spouse refers to Sayid as "that BAMF gonna come KICK your skinny little white a**." LOL Sorry Folks, it's just a saying, and for whatever reason, most of the people on there are white. It shouldn't matter either way, but just to clarify, we are white and both of us have skinny little a**es. MY BAD! :)
WV: indsh: As opposed to having not been served yet?
Rainier said...
@Gracie: Maybe Widmore was such a bastard because Penny is his daughter and Desmond is his son.
Nonononono!!!! This is not true, cannot be true, and is the only thing I can think of right now that would make me hate Lost.
Me: Honey, I had to sleep on that one. And I hate it as much today as I did yesterday. But I keep remembering the hospital parking lot scene where Eloise slaps Widmore like he could POSSIBLY know anything about love like she did/does. And I could see why Ellie would know love enough to let that go, but the father would get stuck skipping, if you will, on the incest thing. It seems Ellie would just more tend to understand how that could happen if you didn't tell them far enough in advance.
Having said that, Penny is still Desmond's constant, and I believe love conquers all. And they have true love, it wouldn't be just the family thing.
Having said THAT: If this is true, I am so hurt by this show, and it might be enough to make me hate it too.
@Colleen: On sideways world, Widmore and Eloise didn't have the same Island experience, married and raised Daniel. Widmore had an affair with someone named Milton and fathered, Penny, who was raised by her mother. The affair did not end his marriage to Eloise.
Me: And I'm stuck on this now, but as your story unfolded, I was still thinking "Penny's unknown mother could also be the unknown mother of Desmond!"
Somebody get me out of this thought pattern please. This just cannot be.
@JS: calling me out eh? just kidding.
While it may not mean anything, it's certainly worth exploring the various reflections with the different characters.
Don't forget we've seen Sun as well take a second look in a clean (straight forward) mirror. And we should also add Ben (non-candidate).
In your categories, maybe we could also add the nature of the surface.
true mirror v. reflective surface (Desmond, Ben, Sayid, Daniel)
-Sayid had the front door window
-Ben had the microwave door
-Desmond had the Arrival terminal and the police station door
-Daniel was the highly tinted limo window
I can't say I remember a Claire one either, but just because we may not have been paying much attention and it wasn't a Claire episode.
Benny said...
Daniel/Penny
Question: how do we really know Daniel is older than Penny?
Me: Technically Nikki should tackle this one cause I know she knows. But it seems to me I heard somewhere on the show that Ellie left the island when her pregnancy, Daniel, became difficult towards the end. I also understood this to be a part of why Widmore was so angry. He wanted to be the leader of the Others, but Ellie was. When she left there due to her pregnancy problem, he felt the position should've been his. But I distinctly remember somebody (Richard?) saying that if you are to be the leader of the Others, you're chosen very young, so it was NEVER WIDMORE'S TO HAVE. I could be wrong and always admit that freely.
WV: mouthr: The woman married to your fouthr. I'm gonna catch hell for this one. LOL
@Sagacious Penguin and your post that started like this:
"THE IMPORTANCE OF THE INCIDENT & THE ULTIMATE COURSE CORRECTION:"
Me: I was actually able to follow that entire thread from beginning to end and my head stayed clear the whole time as far as I know. Thank you. What you have typed here is incredibly thoughtful and thought provoking. That was deep!
Just one question: I agree there was meaning in the bottle/cork thing. But are we reading more into that than Jacob had intended? If you rewatch that part, some times a cork is just a cork which he happened to have handy for the sake of discussion. Other times, it looks entirely different. Opinion please?
Notice: While the McCutcheon scene is analogous to the original scene in "Flashes", it is reversed in that instead of Widmore walking to Desmond's right, he walks to his left.
Don't know if someone already mentioned this, but Rabbit Angstrom is the name of the main character in a series of John Updike novels.
@Rainier: Thanks for clarifying all of that quantum physics stuff! It was such a long day for me yesterday that I didn't have enough time to really look up all that stuff; I was just going from memory! Now that you mention Schrodinger's Cat, my now fully awake mind can remember talking about it in Philosophy as well! Also, the subject of entanglement (95% sure) is also addressed in What the Bleep Do We Know!? & What the Bleep!? - Down the Rabbit Hole
Also, its not a super nerdy DVD, its sorta like "Quantum Physics for Dummies", so I don't think it gets too in-depth, but covers the principles in a sort of layman language.
@Teebore: I agree about the Earth X series. The second and third collections do get, as you say, messy! I'm glad my obscure references are hitting someone! haha
WV: lylewe - small domesticated female sheep; rap name of a less known farm animal
@Gracie: your WV definition made me laugh out loud in the middle of my school library!
WV: tramotru - how a poet starts a passionate stanza about a trolley
I’ve read through the first 200 comments. Time for a few replies.
@JS: Cool news about your upcoming birthday. And I wasn’t fast enough with the “Prisoner” reference. Someone else beat me to it. :) I did wonder in passing, though, if there is another LOST fan out there who will be turning 23 on the 42nd? Maybe not. ;)
@Gracie: The only viewers who get to see the “Mmm… cake!” spots are in south central Kansas, in the KAKE viewing area. Sadly, Ohio is a bit out of range. And if you are still drawing a blank about it, you can refer back to Nikki’s post dated 3-17-10, when we were all marveling at the weirdness. Unfortunately, the short video has been removed from YouTube, so I don’t think there’s any way for you to see it anymore. That’s really a shame. I think the suits at KAKE are being stingy, withholding it from everyone else who would like to see it.
@TiaSabita: I get that your life is super-busy lately, and you haven’t been hanging around the comments much. But just now when I went back through recent posts looking for the correct date to reference for Gracie, above, I zoomed past Nikki’s post of 3-24-10, entitled, “Lost Series Finale Title Announced”, and I was reminded to ask you: Have you seen that? The comments will be of particular interest to you. :)
Anonymous said: Also, I have a question about names on Lost. It's sort of strange that the writers would name two central characters variations of the same name, without having a reason: Charles/Charlie; John/Jack; plus there was another Charlotte (the Australian psychic's daughter from Season Two). I totally thought, over the years, that this was way more significant, because it's kind of a specific choice (it's not like they ran out of names). But I've finally resigned myself to the fact that it's not.
Did anyone else find this odd?
THIS IS AN EXCELLLENT QUESTION, and I can only address it as I know it in my life. You've got me with Charles/Charlie and the two Charlottes, but I'd like to comment on John/Jack. This may not be true everywhere, but it is in my family.
Spouse was born and raised Catholic. He has a relative who is officially named John, although his own mother hates that name. JUST HATES IT! She calls him Jack and so does the rest of his family including Spouse. And everyone who knew him growing up calls him Jack. So when I married into this insanity, I asked about it. This is what I was told, and I was not raised Catholic so pardon me if I step on toes. I'm repeating what I was told. To the Catholic Family, chosing a name (eventually there will be three: first name, middle name, and confirmation name), is of UTMOST importance. It must be a Catholic name, sanctioned (?) by the Catholic church, and one hopes to pick a good, decent name as a guide to follow throughout life. From what I was told about the Church, there is no connection at all between Jack and John. In many places, Jack is not even a nickname for John. Where the combination even comes from remains a mystery to me.
But this mother wanted to call her son Jack which is not even remotely Catholic. The closest she could get to that was John. So that's his name. It's just that nobody uses it in the family except me. I do because he just always struck me as a John and I had a lot of trouble with Jack. I asked him if he minded if I called him John, and he said he wished everyone would, so please I should go ahead. He told me he has looked into it, and HE has never found a connection between John and Jack. He swears his name was given during a moment of insanity his mother went through.
But I understand exactly where this question came from! And it's a good one. I have also found this to be very odd.
@Rainier: Your whole section that included the following was amazing, and if this seems petty, pardon me, but that loud sound you heard was me patting myself on the back after getting through it all AND COMPREHENDING IT! (Go me!) But I did have a question about this particular part here:
"She wants him to stop trying to find Penny, because then he will become aware of the specifics of both timelines at the same time, will be able to determine which is what is "supposed" to happen, and one of the two alternatives will cease to exist."
And I followed that but wondered, Okay she WANTS him to stop, and it follows that Widmore would only want him (Des) involved to the extent that he (Widmore) needed him. So let's just say that Desmond elects or makes the conscience choice to ignore them both. What are they gonna do about it? What are the consequences?
We know, or we think we know, that Des wants the plane manifest, and I think he plans to contact everyone on board about what he thinks is going on. So if I'm right, and you put that together with what you said, where does that leave Ellie/Widmore? Do they foresee this? Are they up a creek without a paddle? What CAN they do if they NEED Desmond but he's running afoul (sp?) of the rules? Seems to me Des is the exception to the rules and they NEED him, so what if he doesn't just follow along? Do you follow me?
Lisa(until further notice) said...
Also, I read this on "neverseenlost", but he talks about when Desmond goes to see Penny at the stadium...wasn't she supposed to be at Eloise's big charity event that night? DOH!
I love these blogs...all the things that everyone else notices that I am not able to.
I thought that pointed to her NOT being Penny Milton but gave Daniel the "opening" he needed to talk to Desmond. Without that samll bit it would have been odd (did I really say that about something that happened on Lost?!?) for Daniel to approach Des about Penny.
crazyinlost said: Is it my imagination, or is the sidways world more dull, and washed out looking? It's as if they are using a cooling filter, to make even the sun not seem as bright.
WOW! I thought it was just me. I've gone backwards twice now on two separate shows because everything looks so pale in comparison (?) to the OT, but I thought it was just me. Thank you for making me feel better about something today!
@gracie:
I agree with you that we shouldn't attribute TOO much importance to Jacob's cork metaphor. That the Island's functionality is similar to that of a cork IS definitely important, but not the cork specifically itself.
I think the "dam" metaphor that Kelvin Inman (Desmond's old hatch-mate) used back in the Season 2 finale is just as apt in describing the Island. He said that continuing to push the button in the Swan station was akin to keeping your finger in hole in a dam: the dam already head the hole, and you by keeping your finger in it you're just delaying the inevitable.
My big question on this is whether or not Desmond turning the key and "blowing the whole dam" resulted in freeing the "evil" that Jacob told Richard about...
Ok Benny, have had it. You said:
@JS: In my opinion, Sayid is still counted. While claimed, he remains a candidate, bodily somewhat, though not the eventual replacement. Since he was once a candidate, I think he remains one.
Jacob tells Ilana there are 6 candidates remaining. One of them ends up being Sayid, which she escorts back. She still claims there to be 6 candidates, either she counts Sayid or a new candidate has been included."
My bad. I've read and reread and read again, but I cannot follow this. Did you see something somewhere else like a Podcast or something I didn't see? How do you know she takes Sayid back? And I'm thinking I've got my six candidates figured out, but we are not matching up. Please PLEASE explain this.
@Gracie: Before going to the island aboard Ajira Flight 316, Ilana is visited by Jacob and told she needs to protect 6 candidates (as seen in the flashback of Ab Aeterno). One of those candidates is Sayid, who she escorts back to the island aboard flight 316 (as seen in season five's "316").
We (the audience) knows that Sayid has been claimed but it's possible that Ilana doesn't know this. Or if she does, his infection is irrelevant to his status as a candidate.
So Benny was simply saying it is likely that Ilana still counts Sayid as one of the six candidates she was tasked with protecting (I believe; I don't want to put words in Benny's mouth...).
Back to Benny who said:
@Joan: Do people usually make sense when they haven't had their morning brew? ...or on Lost blogs?
...or on Lost blogs WHEN they haven't had coffee, that's just the worse! Right?
I've never been a coffee drinker. I don't dislike it - it just never happened. So from there take that, take away my cigarettes (which are still gone), and now eliminate my 22 cups of hot tea per day. Stir in Six Seasons of Lost and mix well.
Did you just diagnose all my medical problems? Maybe it started with the lack of coffee, and yes, I'm kidding. Sure made my head feel better tho! :)
WV: nonisers: those things you use to scrap the ice off your windshield? People who prefer their drinks straight up?
@ Jessica, Teebore: I mean if we are all (well most of us) saying that LOST is going to come down to LOVE, then isn’t this a great example of the power of love? One moment you think you’re dying cuz you are a junkie and then you experience consciousness altering love… seems like a great motivator or reason to kick the habit or to be able to focus on something other than your next fix.
Consciousness-altering love might indeed be a great motivator to kick the habit, but it is not going to do one blessed thing for the symptoms of withdrawal. Which, with Heroin, are really, really awful. Think about the worst case of the flu you have ever had. Multiply it by 3. Are you going to be out there, calmly getting a drink in a bar? Hell no. You aren't even going to be able to keep that drink down.
I can buy that the properties of the island might make this easier - but love? No way. Not buying it.
@Jessica: What’s interesting to me is that we all forgot or seemed to forget that Charlie was technically inside the hatch when it went kaboom and that Daniel has been exposing himself to electromagnetism for years which caused his memory loss. Is there anyone else we can think of that may have a bipartisan relationship to the worlds due to this?
This is a good point, and I'm thinking Charlotte. Also George. Both of them have previously experienced consciousness-traveling.
Word verf: outhe: where my really stupid ideas go once I'm done reading them through. Followed by "window".
Lisa (ufn) said:
Also, I read this on "neverseenlost", but he talks about when Desmond goes to see Penny at the stadium...wasn't she supposed to be at Eloise's big charity event that night? DOH!
THIS COULD BE HUGE!!! Huge, as in Eloise thinking that if Penny had just done what Eloise had expected her to do, meaning show up at her charity event, "then this whole damn thing could have been avoided. And how dare YOU, Penny, for not showing up at MY personal party! Have you NO respect at all you little twit?" Makes you wonder if Penny sent back her RSVP and how she replied. Huge! I see many possibles there. I also easily see a writing error, but the other possibilies are fun to play with.
Another writing flaw comes immediately to mind which maybe somebody will explain to me why the writers went the way they went:
At the end, Des gets in the car with George, and Des is all dreamy in love with that great big sigh, and it's an easy moment for him, or should have been cause he's all natural and relaxed.
George says: "So, did you find what you were looking for?"
Spouse and I are looking at Des in the backseat and SIMULTANEOUSLY, we both said OUT LOUD, "Aye." That is Desmond. Scottish, relaxed, in love, dreamy. He's gonna say "Aye." And then he didn't. He says, "Yes, George, I did." NO WAY!!! Major writing blunder or something we were supposed to catch? ANYBODY?
VW: phoed: What I did after I pheed and phied, but before I phummed? Anybody else get that one?
@Teebore who said: In the flash sideways, I suppose we could pin his lack of an immediate desire for a fix on his experience with "consciousness-altering" love on the plane. It did, after all, alter his consciousness... "
Me: They may try to pass this off as exactly what you just said, but I'm not buying it. With a junkie, this just doesn't happen. In the example you give here, a junkie is going to leave court, go get his fix "so he's right with the world", and then he'll go to the bar to think/dream about this "consciousness-altering" love he feels with the blonde he saw on the plane. But in ANY reality, a junkie has to get his fix FIRST.
@Rainier: I can buy that the properties of the island might make this easier - but love? No way. Not buying it.
Oh, no, I'm not either way. "Love", consciousness-altering or not, wouldn't be enough to get someone over the physical symptoms of withdrawal.
My comment was simply a flippant way of saying, ultimately, the show is more concerned with themes like consciousness-altering love, identity, and free will vs. destiny than it is with presenting a realistic, measured portrayal of the effects of substance abuse and/or withdrawal.
Would it have been more realistic for the show to show Charlie in a state of withdrawal, unable to think clearly, itching for fix? Yes, absolutely. But that's not what the show is about, and the creators ultimately decided to eschew reality, in this case, for the sake of theme and the brevity of story.
That may rankle some, but I wasn't even thinking about Charlie's withdrawal state because I was too entranced by the discussion of Charlie's consciousness crossing over to the Island Universe.
@Gracie That is Desmond. Scottish, relaxed, in love, dreamy. He's gonna say "Aye." And then he didn't. He says, "Yes, George, I did." NO WAY!!! Major writing blunder or something we were supposed to catch? ANYBODY?
Personally, I think it's neither, just a conscious choice on the part of the script writer to write something other than what we might have expected.
After all, as much as we might like it, they can't have Desmond peppering every other sentence with "brutha", either. :)
@Gracie: So let's just say that Desmond elects or makes the conscience choice to ignore them both. What are they gonna do about it? What are the consequences?
We know, or we think we know, that Des wants the plane manifest, and I think he plans to contact everyone on board about what he thinks is going on. So if I'm right, and you put that together with what you said, where does that leave Ellie/Widmore? Do they foresee this? Are they up a creek without a paddle? What CAN they do if they NEED Desmond but he's running afoul (sp?) of the rules? Seems to me Des is the exception to the rules and they NEED him, so what if he doesn't just follow along? Do you follow me?
I follow you. And I don't think there is a damn thing they can do about Desmond not following the rules. And I don't think, at this point, that he is the only one - I think that Daniel may not be following the rules, and neither is Charlie. They are all seeing pieces of both realities. But we know that Desmond is special. And his glimpse of the original timeline was way, way more than anyone else has gotten. Now he is out to spread the word; I'm guessing that this is exactly what Eloise and Charles do not want. Des is going to do whatever he thinks he is "supposed" to do. And it is possible that he is the one person who actually knows what he is "supposed" to do. Which makes him 1) very, very valuable; and 2) very, very dangerous. This depends on your perspective. A lot may hinge on the choices that he makes.
But I keep remembering the hospital parking lot scene where Eloise slaps Widmore like he could POSSIBLY know anything about love like she did/does. And I could see why Ellie would know love enough to let that go, but the father would get stuck skipping, if you will, on the incest thing.
OK, you lost me there. So to speak. That slap was about Daniel. So what on earth does this have to do with your theory that penny and Des are 1/2 sibs? I don't get it. And I don't buy it, either. What possible evidence do you have that would support this? Charles' attitude towards Des? Nah. If he'd really wanted to scare Desmond off, he would only have had to say "She's your sister."
Word verf: qualca- quantum calculation. HA!
@Andrew: When Juliet detonated the nuclear device there was no explosion. There was a simultaneous release of the nuclear energy and the magnetic energy. These two energies canceled one another out and the magnetic/magical properties of the island were negated.
This had a couple of effects
• MIB was free to leave
So why is he still hanging around complaining that he can't?
@Teebore: Fair enough. I will admit that I am generally most interested in what happens to the characters. But this is such a central issue with that particular character, that it does not make sense that they just tossed it aside.
Still thinking about “Happily Ever After”, mulling, brewing, (fermenting?)... I just had a new and surprising thought. When we saw Claire briefly in the airport terminal, I immediately noticed (and didn’t like) the fact that her baby bump looked different, all wrong, too high, oddly shaped, and weird (at first I thought really, really fake). But this afternoon I laughed at myself for my know-it-all attitude. This was Claire in a parallel universe, a different reality, and a DIFFERENT PREGNANCY! All pregnancies are different. The bun in her ovarian oven may be Aaron, but that’s not to say that he would be positioned exactly the same way.
@Rainier said...
@ Jessica .....
Consciousness-altering love might indeed be a great motivator to kick the habit, but it is not going to do one blessed thing for the symptoms of withdrawal. Which, with Heroin, are really, really awful. Think about the worst case of the flu you have ever had. Multiply it by 3. Are you going to be out there, calmly getting a drink in a bar? Hell no. You aren't even going to be able to keep that drink down.
I can buy that the properties of the island might make this easier - but love? No way. Not buying it.
I just want to clarify for everyone that I am in no way diminishing the physical, emotional, and psychological difficulties that come with heavy drug withdrawals. I've worked in that area and it is indeed a horrible thing to witness.
My initial reaction to everyones' skepticism about the 'unrealness' of Charlie's behavior is kinda like saying that a big black smoke monster can't cross water (Because that would be RIDICULOUS!) is so unreal. Well, no kidding, it is LOST and it is a TV show.
IMO Either the writer's were ignoring the withdrawal side of things in this episode (as to not offend the sentiments of some family-tv-watch group), they did it on purpose as part of the consciousness altering storyline, or they didn't feel the timing of the actions would have warranted it.
Reason 1: Likely. see previous episodes where the administration of the drugs is never shown
Reason 2: More likely. Charlie has given up going to the concert and doesn't feel like this life is real. He is completely focused on finding his dream angel.
Reason 3: Somewhat likely. It can take a few hours or up to 24-48 hours for any extreme symptoms to produce themselves (sure the craving is there but most do not puke and fall over in 4-6 hours.) If we use Desmond as a time table; he gets off the plane into the car, gets driven to Chucky, finds out what his job is, and then drives over to the jail. I can see that all occurring in 2-4 hours, not quite long enough for Charlie to not be able to sit on a bar stool.
But, blah, I'm sorry to go on. It just seemed that there was a lot of nitpicking about this particular issue and I didn't see it as such a distraction.
I just loved, LOVED every bit about this episode!
@Rainier: So why is he still hanging around complaining that he can't?
He's not. That's Island Smokey, in the form of Locke. We haven't seen Smokey in the Sideways universe yet.
The theory is predicated on their being two universe: in one, the sideways universe, the bomb destroyed the energy pocket, causing Dharma to lose interest, leave the island, MiB to go free, the island sinks, etc.
In the other, island universe, the the bomb just shunted everyone back to the island's present, so the island is still there, MiB is still trapped, everything that happened between 1977 and 2007 on the island still happened as we know it.
Gracie said:
VW: phoed: What I did after I pheed and phied, but before I phummed? Anybody else get that one?
Hahaha!! Excellent one, Gracie!!
Not 100% sure, but I think each word verif is unique...so only one person will get that particular "word".
"I had this weird theory that the two Desmonds -- FS and OT -- somehow got switched after the big loud machine thing."
This isn't so wild. Sorry if this has been covered in the million + responses so far, lol, but I can't decide if:
A) Desmond switched once with his other self and that's why he suddenly became cooperative (it's another Desmond).
B) Desmond switched back a second time when he touched Penny twice at the end. So then sideways Desmond was occupying island Desmond and vice versa.
This would explain why he wants to show his friends something (but that did seem like our island Desmond in the sideways world). I like the second one better, but admit I haven't spent any time revisiting the episode. I'll do that tonight on SPACE, lol.
Rainier said: And I don't think, at this point, that he is the only one - I think that Daniel may not be following the rules, and neither is Charlie. They are all seeing pieces of both realities. But we know that Desmond is special."
Me: EXCELLENT POINTS! Every last one of them, including what you said after that.
This was me some time ago: But I keep remembering the hospital parking lot scene where Eloise slaps Widmore like he could POSSIBLY know anything about love like she did/does. And I could see why Ellie would know love enough to let that go, but the father would get stuck skipping, if you will, on the incest thing.
Rainier said: OK, you lost me there. So to speak. That slap was about Daniel. So what on earth does this have to do with your theory that penny and Des are 1/2 sibs? I don't get it. And I don't buy it, either. What possible evidence do you have that would support this? Charles' attitude towards Des? Nah. If he'd really wanted to scare Desmond off, he would only have had to say "She's your sister."
Me: Yes, slap was about Daniel, but I always gathered there was more to it than that. I'd have to see it again. I think he was rambling on about how he lost his son too or his son and daughter or whatever he said, and I always thought that NO small part of the slap was her righteous indignation that he could possibly compare the two because I strongly believe that Ellie lost her son (sort of-that's very hard for me to say too, cause she was a lousy mother IMHO), while Charles THREW HIS KIDS AWAY for his own greater gain. His own greed cost him his relationship with his child/children. OR whatever his thing is with this island, which until just recently was nothing but greed and vendetta.
As for the incest: I wish to hell I knew, but it's hanging around me like a nag! I saw a show a long time ago. I don't remember what it was but there was a legitimate reason why two people could not tell their children that they were siblings, but HAD TO NOW that the kids were in love. The father found it easier to hate the boy/man and treated him horribly, because he couldn't hurt the girl/woman, and in the man's eyes he couldn't blame himself for any wrongdoing because he was beyond reproach. He also still loved the mother so it certainly wasn't her fault either; therefore, he focused all of his anger and rage at the boy.
For evidence, all I have is this right now: We've met all of these characters over six seasons, and we've learned so much about all of them. There are indeed some we know very little about, but they're not major players (Rose and Bernard come to mind). We know more about how Walt got Vincent than we do about where Des came from, and that irks me now. I can't think of another major player we don't have a lot of background on except Desmond. There's the nag!! Who are his parents? Why haven't we seen them? Have we? When? What do they do and what is his relationship with them? And it's bothering me. NAG NAG NAG! I keep telling myself, I'm wrong, I've got to be wrong, I've overlooked something somewhere, but I can't find it. And then here comes the nag again.
It's like a creepy gut feeling crawling up my back, but hey, Rainier, if I'm wrong, I'll be overjoyed to do a happy dance with you and everybody else. Last night I thought of something else about Des too that you would call, like, evidence, but today I'm not getting it. I'll let you know if it revisits me. I hate this! Nikki would know (HEY NIKKI!) if we ever knew more about Des than I am remembering. Sorry.
ditto Teebore, ditto
Gracie, I realize re-reading I hadn't specified "back to the island", i noticed the confusion.
And Gracie, I'm glad that comment had you going!
The scene where Charlie is running in the white hospital gown reminded me of Alice and Wonderland when Alice (Desmond) chases the white rabbit (Charlie) down the hole (down the stairs).
I loved Eloise's line when she meets Desmond, "It's about time."
Hey Rainier: Another one is Naomi. Do we know less about anyone who had a particular purpose than Naomi? (It was Naomi right, that came with the Freighter, and fell out of a tree with a satellite phone? Locke stabbed her in the back.) If it's not Naomi, that's who I mean. Anyway, she was there for a purpose, and we knew all about it. She was NOT a major player, but she left questions, or at least two that bug me: Are we ever gonna know the meaning behind her bracelet and "Tell my sister that I love her"? Who is her sister? See? Even with a sub-par (I don't think that's the term I want.) character like Naomi we got something, some little piece of a family. Where is Desmonds family?
@Teebore: He's not. That's Island Smokey, in the form of Locke. We haven't seen Smokey in the Sideways universe yet.
My bad. I really do know better! Momentary lapse of reason. Probably because my brain exploded after I posted all of the quantum mechanics stuff.
@Gracie: Are we ever gonna know the meaning behind her bracelet and "Tell my sister that I love her"? Who is her sister?
The episode after she said that (the second of season four, I believe) it was revealed that "tell my sister that I love her" was a code amongst the freighter folk for "I'm in trouble and talking under duress". As far as we know, Naomi has no actual sister.
As for her bracelet, the producers have said in podcasts that it is essentially meaningless, a little prop meant to subtly flesh out the character, and a device to symbolically link Sayid on the island with Sayid in the flash foward (i.e. in both times and places, the character interacted with dead women wearing similar bracelets).
Important question for anybody: Yes, I have a separate page open just to comment. But when I am on the full comment page, invariably I will bump something, hit the wrong key, or just do a major FU. When this happens, the screen goes to the top of that page. How do you quickly find where you were without having to scroll again through all of the messages?
ANYBODY? PLEASE? I will happily wait here at the bottom for a reply.
I've been unable to write the past couple of days, and just when I finally got down to replying to all the comments I've pasted into TextEdit the Internet connection went out (as it so often does). Now I refresh the screens and see I'm 100 comments behind again... I'll try to read, maybe write, and maybe even post during commercials tonight, but there's great television that I just can't fall behind on: Bones' 100th episode! Fringe! Supernatural! I'm heinously behind on 30 Rock now and won't pay $1.99 for 22 minutes of even awesome comedy multiple times over, and I've yet to catch up on FlashForward since the break, although the episodes are online free and I'm tempted to try. Curse you, Thursday Night Television!
VW: donsomp — Committing a dubious action down south: "Uh-oh. Now ah've gone an' donsomp."
Gracie: How do you quickly find where you were without having to scroll again through all of the messages?
If you can remember who wrote the comment you were reading — or, even better, a phrase — you can hit command-F (it might be different depending on your browser) to open up a find/search field near the top of your window and keep tapping return until you recognize where you were.
VW: gewse — A very British goose.
Just to be crystal clear: You need to enter text into the find/search field before you start tapping return. 8^)
Nikki--I was taken by your observation of the beautiful music Daniel was playing. I found if you query 'Chopin' in Lostpedia, it notes that Chopin's Fantaisie in C#minor--OP66, was played by Faraday as a boy, later as the mentally damaged adult when his mother talks him into going to the Island on Widmore's freighter.This season Jack's son David plays the piece, as well as Daniel while prepping in the tent for his mother's fete. I have share your pondering if this particular piece of music isn't an important motif in itself. It wasn't repeated all these times for no reason. This is an amazingly beautiful and haunting piece. (Listen to it on Youtube-Horowitz,Rubenstein,Yundi Li (my favorite)are all wonderful interpretations of this music.) After giving it a long listen, then reading the musical explanation of it on wiki, I can definitely see the piece as a musical expression of the two realities/universes that LOST is time/space travelling through. There are cross rythms and melodies interweaving just like in the storyline. The key changes from C sharp minor to D flat major, the musical PARALLEL to C sharp minor. (How's that for a metaphor!!) There's frenetic energy,drama and angst in this piece in the C sharp minor key, just like in the Island action. Then the alternate melody weaves in and replaces it with the D flat major motif (remember, it's a PARALLEL, like the Altverse is parallel to Island reality we know). It's motif is light,airy but with a sense of yearning in it. the piece ends inconclusively, as though something more should follow. It sounds almost incomplete, as though the music was a 'round', and the player simply stopped playing, because there is no end in a 'round'-it just continues to interweave on,and on,and on. Similar to how I think LOST will end--leaving us without a conclusion to the story, because the story never ends.
I recall the original title for LOST was supposed to be 'The Circle' Just my thoughts-Lostnadream.
@Blam: If you can remember who wrote the comment you were reading — or, even better, a phrase — you can hit command-F (it might be different depending on your browser) to open up a find/search field near the top of your window and keep tapping return until you recognize where you were.
Wow! Thanks, Blam! I didn't know that either & was kind of wondering whether there was a search function somewhere here.
@ Anonymous? lostnadream?
Wow. That is really an excellent post. I love this piece of music, but have not given it this kind of thought...I hope the ending to Lost will not be wide open. I'd like to see some kind of resolution, even if I don't expect (or necessarily want) to have it all tied up with a bow and handed to us. I don't think they should answer every question, but I do ot want to be left saying "so what the hell was that???" I've done enough of that during the past 4 years, thanks.
Look at this Folks: Rainier managed to put "Widmore" and "good guy" in the same sentence with "evil bastard" and almost managed to elicit sympathy for him.
She said: I had a really hard time seeing Widmore as the "good guy" because he is such a mean person, but if all that meanness is for a reason, maybe he is not the evil bastard that we have been led to believe he is.
Rainier: Wow! Thanks, Blam! I didn't know that either & was kind of wondering whether there was a search function somewhere here.
I live to serve. Or do I live for soft-serve? Mmm... I gotta get me down the shore for some Kohr Bros. swirl with chocolate jimmies. <— will make no sense to folks outside the Philly / South Jersey area.
VW: undoghth — To transform someone back from canine to human form, in Shakespearean English: "Ver'ly, I must needs undoghth the prince / Ere king and queen returneth home this night. / The barking? No, 'tis not the wherefore hence; / But th' ignominy shouldst they suff'r his bite."
I am having such a fun time reading all of your conversations. My brain is fried, but it's nice to see all of you are having such intelligent conversations! Keep up the good work :)
@Blam: I've yet to catch up on FlashForward since the break I just started catching up today, but my internets decided that "buffering" was apparently a much more interesting show for me to watch.
And VW: undoghth — To transform someone back from canine to human form, in Shakespearean English: "Ver'ly, I must needs undoghth the prince / Ere king and queen returneth home this night. / The barking? No, 'tis not the wherefore hence; / But th' ignominy shouldst they suff'r his bite."
I think this may very well be the best VW definition ever.
VW: dishOU - when you have to replace a plate you broke
Benny said...
@Gracie: You probably don't know her from anywhere else to be honest. She did the Survivor Cook Islands. Here are her credits.
Me: And that's where I knew Dear Sundra Oakley from. That was the last Survivor I actually watched before landing in this chair.
What interests me in Desmond's conversation with Eloise are 2 things that she said to him:
"You aren't ready yet", implying at some point he would be ready to learn a greater truth or learn of his greater role in the LOST universe.
and
when she was going on that his seeking out knowledge of Penny and unravelling the AU was a "violation", hinitng that she is aware of all the rules of whatever cosmic game is being played out, like not being able to kill candidates or MIB not being able to kill Jacob directly, etc.
There is a "game" being played here and Eloise is definitely a player on the grand scale of things. Perhaps the "mother who is crazy" that MIB referred to as having.
Like everyone else here, can't wait to see how this all unfolds.
@ashlie-I dont do twitter (dont tweet?), and I am dying to know what Damon said about Des's ring. Could you let me know what he said, or where else to find it? Thanks so much!
@Andrew-great theory. I like what you said about MIB being behind the SW since everyone has what they 'think' they want!
word verif-hunchrom-that feeling you get when you know ethan is creepy!
@JS-happy belated birhtday! and you are now also the answer to the ultimate question!
@lowercase dan-"A) Desmond switched once with his other self and that's why he suddenly became cooperative (it's another Desmond)."
I like this one, cause it would explain why he seems so calm and trusting towards Chuck.
@Sagaious Penguin - I think you have hit the nail on the head...Eloise is the key. If we think back to the moment she killed Daniel , after that point she'd believe time travel possible, have a journal that details how to do it , and the motivation to try and bring Daniel back into a reality where he does not get shot by his own mother. With only a handful of episodes to go at some point there is going to be a MASSIVE twist/time loop.....when/who/where si the question.
crazyinlost: Here are his actual tweets/retweets.
The first one was a retweet from a fan question, he didn't exactly say anything on it:
RT @gradgrind @DamonLindelof What happened to Des' wedding ring from "LA X"? Bleed-thru of the 2 universes?
11:50 PM Apr 6th via TwitterGadget in reply to DamonLindelof
Retweeted by DamonLindelof and 36 others
And then a follow-up apologizing for the re-tweet:
Retweets were unintentional... I NEVER want to spoil those who haven't seen yet. So sorry, guys.
12:28 AM Apr 7th via TwitBird iPhone
@Sonshine: re: Blam And VW: undoghth ... I think this may very well be the best VW definition ever.
Absolutely! Welcome back, Blam! I worried that something was wrong with you. Glad to hear it was just your internets. ;p
Word Verf: biump : How Inspector Clouseau hurt his head.
@Anybody: This question will be long but it has always bothered me, and it'll take you way back. I keep watching it and rerereading that part of Nik's book to see what I missed and where. So I'm throwing it out there.
Back in the hatch when Ben was whatshisname from Minnesota. And that was all Locke knew about him. Locke got his legs stuck under the hatch door while he and Ben were alone. Locke implored Ben to go push the numbers, and at first Ben said he did. But later on, Ben told Locke he never did push the buttons. (I don't remember if it ever showed the truth or not, probably doesn't matter.) Ok, Ben was keeper of the keys, sort of speak. He acts on behalf of the island. He thinks he is "together" with Jacob to do what need be done to protect the island. If we accept this as gospel, and accept what Ben told Locke about never pushing the buttons, WHY? Why would Ben NOT push the buttons if he knew that to not do so would be detrimental to the island? If in fact he DID push the buttons but told Locke he did not, why would he want Lock to believe that? It seems very counter stategic to me and Spouse. AND IT CHANGED EVERYTHING!
@JS: First I'd like to be the first (that I've seen) to tell you that the piece you wrote at: April 7, 2010 1:26 PM, was a piece of artwork: very well thought out and worded perfectly. I managed to follow the whole thread on one read. :) (No small feat that.) Just an amazing piece of work. All tidied up and planned out.
Now I wanna say why I can't see that. It's 2010 (?pick a year?) and I'm Widmore, and I'm responsible for having, through time, made this, this, this, this, and this happen. As a result, and AS I EXPECTED AND PLANNED, that, that, that, and that happened. I'm (meaning ME) done right there. Because as Daniel pointed out, you can plan all this down to the letter with all the money in the world, but there's one thing you cannot count on: The Variables. The people. And for each one of my perfectly laid out plans, there's gonna be at least one moron out there (OR one very brilliant mind) just chomping at the bit to screw me up. If you then say, well if that happens, I can plan this and this to accomplish that. But the same reasoning above applies again. That, my Dear, falls under "The best laid plans of mice and men...." which somebody will probably tell me is Shakespeare, and if so, I'm gonna scream. But there you go.
Also, and I've mentioned this several times, I abhor Widmore. They really portrayed him to be a bad guy, and MANY times I've rewatched his scenes and the way he treats people JUST looking for a reason to find him likeable. And it's not there. I haven't seen it. He reminds me of my father, only he didn't have money.
And this is where Lost scares me to death. If they have shown me how horrible this guy is from the very get go just to turn around and make HIM the hero, I'm just crawl into a hole. Heroes are people like Hurley. Don't do this to me. Let me love Lost, have my heroes and villians, and end it on something that we never saw coming, but that makes sense. Did that make sense coming from me?
WV: porma, the wife of my father.
@Fred: Your long post at: April 7, 2010 1:47 PM was equally well done, easy to follow, and a reminder of some things I've forgotten. Well done.
Please remind me: Who, in fact, killed Karl and Rousseau? Not the planner, or the one who wanted it done, who actually pulled the trigger? Next thing we knew Miles "heard" them underground.
@Gracie: Please remind me: Who, in fact, killed Karl and Rousseau?
I don't think we ever saw who pulled the trigger for the shot that killed them, but it was either Keamey or one of his mercenary buddies.
Something else I'm not buying into and maybe you guys can help me:
Widmore says "I've brought you back to the island." Camera on Des. God, those eyes. That cringe in his face. That pulse in his forehead. THAT TWITCH!!! which leads to comprehension. OMG! I told Nikki last week Des is gonna kill him, and if Des didn't, Widmore would wish he had. That face, that beautiful face, as recognition hits him, will haunt me for years.
Then comes a point where all is well and we shall just travel down this merry path and join together as one. AAAAACCKKKK!!! I cannot just buy into that! I know about the Penny thing, but I still think, because Des was already with Penny and Charlie at the hospital, and this SOB has brought him back to the island which he SO hated, and spent YEARS trying to leave, Desmond is gonna kill him. Now help me out here.
Also, I've rewatched AGAIN the part of Des at the airport reading the board. He's just standing there and appears to be reading the board. There's no "Wha? moment there, no look of WTF? was that. and none in front of the courthouse. Missing something.
Caught that Teebore on Karl and Rousseau. Thanks. Needed that.
@Gracie: Then comes a point where all is well and we shall just travel down this merry path and join together as one. AAAAACCKKKK!!! I cannot just buy into that!
Well, that's the question we're all asking, and I'd wager, the question the producers want us to be asking: why, at the end, is Desmond so willing to work with Widmore.
I've seen some theories suggesting that perhaps the consciousness of Sideways Desmond (who is on good terms with Widmore) is in the body of Island Desmond.
Personally, I think Desmond got a flash of what's going to happen, and saw that in order for him, Penny and lil' Charlie to be together, he needs to work with Widmore, so he's now more than happy to do so.
But that's all theorizing at this point; no one (except maybe the producers) knows why Desmond is now so nonchalant about working with Widmore.
@Teebore, Benny and everyone else who commented on this:
Benny: Maybe by the end you'll realize that ALL the cameos HAD TO BE THEM. Right now you just take them in as a nod to fans, but it may be more important and we just don't know it... yet.
I think except for the very smallest parts (people who never had names, redshirts, etc.) EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THIS SHOW WAS/IS IMPORTANT, but I don't know why yet. Instead of seeing it now, look backwards. Can you imagine, say, doing the casting for, cripes, I can't think of who I want. Ok it's not what I want but just say you are casting Hurley for a show we have AN IDEA ABOUT, but we have no way of knowing if this show will be carried by ABC or anybody else for six years. When you first cast him, you know you need a fat guy, with a sort of downtrodden looking face, who can get a zinger of a humor line right in there when you need it to count. Later, he'll have to lose a little weight, be insane, carry scenes on his own while talking to "Dave", speak Spanish with his mother and others all the way up to Isabella and Richard, talk to the dead believably, put on a happy face, be believeable as a wealthy, go-getter, and all the other things that have come out of this guy who was once cast cause he was a big dude, could do the sad face, and could carry a funny or sarcastic line well. I think they needed to know that when Hurley was first cast. Here's another one: I really believe that when the part of Juliet was cast, THEY KNEW that at some point in the future they would NEED her character to be able to, if not speak Latin, at least be able to do so briefly and do it believeably. Whew! That was too hard!
If you look for little changes in big characters, you have to see that if Darlton were telling the truth when they said they always knew where this story was going, these people had to be cast from the word "GO" with specific intent. I also think contracts were signed that forced people to agree that if they did this part NOW, they agreed to come back at some point later NO MATTER what they were involved in. Climbing off my soapbox now. Thank you.
Fred said: In the end, Locke did manage to get the Ocenic 6 to return, with some help from Ilana, and including Ben.
Yeah, I agree with you right until I don't. On the face of it, everything you said is correct. (Well written too!) But then it falls for me on the Oceanic Six. Why specifically? Because there was such an exhaustively big deal made of putting it all back together as closely as possible with the original flight, down to and including the shoes on Locke's feet. And I was good with that to that point. Ellie had me right with her in her back pocket and I'm buying the whole thing. But to put back what had left.....I'm stuck there. Sun was pregnant, and her baby, Ji Yeon, to me, should have been made to come with her, as PART of her. MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Oceanic Six included Aaron. He was one of the numbers or members, if you will. How can he NOT come back with Kate? That negates all of the so called importance that Ellie put into this recreation. If it's gotta be just so, then it's gotta be just so, or as she said, as close as we can get it. In that line of thinking, imagine where the story line could have gone if Kate had brought Aaron back, and Sun had Ji Yeon. WOW!!! Add Claire into that thought, and you've really got a war coming.
Also, by this time everyone loves Ben, the character. (Or loves to hate him.) But as I understood the story as it was moving along, it was like Ben was "removed" from the island for the sake of John Locke, and I think Widmore said once removed (banished?), you're not allowed back. But Ben goes back on THIS flight, and it seemed to me that the only reason he did was because everyone loved his character. In other words, he didn't belong on that flight. Like he didn't FIT there, but we gotta get him back somehow so we will just stick him onboard too. He does HAVE to be there in order to kill Jacob, but this doesn't seem very well thought out to me. And along that line of thought, from what we've seen so far, unless I've forgotten something, Ben's character could've been killed off in the fight with Jacob, simply because what's he done lately? He's a number on the Jacob/Hurley team, but that's about it. Now, where am I wrong?
@Gracie - re: your question about Ben, under the name of Henry Gale, back in the good ol' Hatch days. I think we are meant to assume that Ben DID push the button, otherwise all of the frenetic electromagnetic activity that we later saw after Locke smashed the computer would have occurred THEN - especially since there was no Desmond around at that point to turn the key as a failsafe.
Now, as to why Benry would tell Locke that he never actually pushed the button ... well, that's a different discussion. It's tempting to think that he was just messing with Locke's head, continuing an ongoing manipulation that he felt would pay off down the road. BUT - we see exactly what happened when Locke stopped believing the button HAD to be pushed. It nearly destroyed the whole damn Island. So - did Ben really have no clue what would happen if someone didn't push it? Given that the Others had the Swan Station under surveillance for so long ... presumably going back to the Radzinsky and Kelvin days ... is it possible that Ben was willing to take a chance that the Swan implosion would only destroy those in its immediate vicinity and not the whole Island?
I just don't know. IF the "Incident" occurred the first time, back in 1977, without the detonation of a nuke ... perhaps Ben had witnessed an unchallenged emission of the Island's electromagnetic energy and knew that the damage could be localized. BUT if the detonation of the nuke in fact always happened ... then he would have no way of knowing what would really happen if the button didn't get pushed.
Your guess is as good as mine!
@humanebean: Thank you for that reply. I understand your questions in the same regard that I think you truly understood mine.
Can you guys tell I've had forever and a day to think about everything I've seen on this show? I have friends in life, of course, but I've stopped asking them to come by. Some did anyway, and I stopped answering the door. But I sent them a letter saying "I love you, please leave me for this time of illness and confusion." And I got word back that they are there when I'm ready. (I did this for my own reasons that go with my problems.) I rarely even talk on the phone because when I have to do a "split second" answer, decision, or just a thing, I always screw it up anymore.
So, that pretty much leaves me with Spouse and Child. Child has seen bits and pieces of Lost, but because her boyfriend isn't interested.......nevermind. She doesn't watch.
That leaves me with Spouse. I am the type of person, who when she knows she's got it good in a particular area, will say so. If you consider that "tooting one's horn", then so be it. Everyone has flaws that they cry about behind closed doors, including me, so I just believe that if you have something really good, you should say so. THAT is Spouse. Yes, there are other things completely mine, but Spouse is my ace in the hole. He is NOBODY'S fool. Very, very smart man. Extremely literate and articulate, and altough he's been known to mumble from time to time, he can even enunciate. Educated. I'm keeping him. YOUR LOSS. Anyway, this part with Ben and Locke never made any sense to either of us. Especially back in the day. We never saw ANY reason Ben would want Locke to think that button did not have to be pushed. Altough there is always the manipulation angle with Ben, telling Locke he didn't push it went against security, the island and in turn, Jacob, and it went against common sense. And if nobody else but humanebean has heard me out on this issue, well, then thank you very much humanebean, cause this has caused no end of "wonder" on the part of myself and Spouse.
WV: sapling: Next year we will call you a tree?
Superbad said: It's not a screw up that she was all but too happy to talk to some creepy dude while she's doing tour de stade.
I said: SLAP YOURSELF!!! "Creepy dude?" That's Desmond!!
WV: comen: I'm not there yet, but I'm comen?
@Gracie: it was like Ben was "removed" from the island for the sake of John Locke, and I think Widmore said once removed (banished?), you're not allowed back.
Widmore said that you are not allowed back if you are banished. Ben was never banished; he left (via the FDW) willingly. So I don't think that there is an issue with him coming back. And though it does not seem like it at the moment, I am sure he has an important role to fulfill.
In regards to casting: I think that in casting all of the parts, they were looking for quality actors with a good bit of range, or at least the potential for it. So in casting Hurley, they probably knew that they wanted someone who could do light & funny, but also could do other things. While they have said that they always knew where the series was going, they were only talking in terms of general story arc, not specifics. So they knew where they were going but left the process of getting there open.
Even this year, they knew how they story would end, and have had the last scene written for a long time. But they have also said that there was still a lot of room for creative/character development.
So did they need to know that Juliet would eventually speak Latin? No. Any actor worth her salt could do that. A good actor can deliver lines in any language, whether they speak it or not. Here is an example: In the film Water, the protagonist is a young Indian girl. The film is in Hindi. The 8-year-old girl who starred in it does not speak a word of Hindi, but you would never know that from watching the film. She just memorized the lines phonetically, and knew what they meant. Great film, BTW.
I also disagree with you about every last character being important. I don't think, for example, that Frogurt is really significant. Arzt either, for that matter. I'm sure there are others.
I have to say, too that you seem to be a bit too invested in hating Widmore. Not that he hasn't been detestable until this last episode, but I am open to being flexible about the guy. Then again, he is nothing like my father.
@Rainier: There is so much to answer to/for in your post that I need to think about, and may be wrong about. I'll get back to you on this one.
Except for these: Widmore was banished by Ben. Maybe by the Others, but I don't recall who all was in on it. Why did he get to come back or does Hydra not count?
Secondly, and so BRUTALLY honest, some people probably don't wanna read this. Take Mr. Paik and add him together with Charles Widmore. Stir generously. Now take away all the money down to just barely enough to raise eight kids, have a wife, an ex-wife still in the picture from eons ago, AND be a full-time drunk. Key word in there was barely. Shake like you're mixing a martini. Voila! YOU, my Dear, have just met MY father. Few things are more intolerable to me than those people who feel they are "entitled". My father felt that he was entitled, but had little money, was "forced" (?) by fate or circumstances (or maybe his own stupid self) to work two and sometimes three jobs, and he drank like there was no tomorrow. His sense of entitlement - that everyone owed him something and he felt he was above it all - THAT alone made everything else unbearable. Yes, he worked, and that is the argument I get back most often. But he could never understand why he had to work when it was so obviously beneath him. Why didn't the rest of the world see this and just own up? He was SO "entitled" that when he died, and I agree this is horrible, he had no services and no funeral. My mother was ill and in the hospital, but she wanted nothing to do with planning anything in his honor, and she never did. He was cremated. As far as I know, and he died in 99, I think, he's still in a box. His kids wanted nothing to do with him and didn't for years before he died. His grandchildren who were old enough, wouldn't go near him, and the rest feared him (he thought this was the way it should be). He cashed in his life insurance policy so that my mother would never have anything without him. THIS part, and they show it very well on Lost, "this feeling of I'm entitled", from Paik and Widmore (and sometimes it's really bad with Ellie) makes me want to retch. But, and yes, I've got it, they are actors, and boy are they good at what they are doing! Each one has their part nailed to the wall.
SM: I just started catching up [on FlashForward] today, but my internets decided that "buffering" was apparently a much more interesting show for me to watch.
I know that scenario all too well. The buffering sucks like a vampire. We must slay the vampire bufferer. 8^)
VW: mormant — The exact second you realize you're dead.
Some thought on Eloise's use of the term "violation": Although it is usually used in the context of time travel it could be that she is talking about a causality violation. This fits either the classic theoretical scenario where you go back in time and change something (which has already been done here) or where, say, a transmission is received before it is sent. But maybe getting information from the other timeline and acting on it is also a violation of causality, because the causal event doesn't even happen in this timeline.
@ Gracie: Widmore was banished by Ben. Maybe by the Others, but I don't recall who all was in on it. Why did he get to come back or does Hydra not count?
I'm guessing that he gets to come back because he is bringing Desmond with him.
Word verf: plodisin: Disin' the PLO
Zari: Welcome back, Blam! I worried that something was wrong with you. Glad to hear it was just your internets. ;p
Oh, no, your instincts were right. 8^) I've had a string of terribly unproductive days, and the weblessness just added insult to inactivity.
Anyway, I do have lots to say on the conversation here, even though my notes have been added to, changed, or just plain made redundant as I keep reading. Your early venture into M Theory was fascinating, Zari, and I wish I could've seen that show on Science. Rainier's thoughts on superpositioning and quantum physics were also enlightening and Sagacious Penguin's theories on the new timeline gibe with some of my own thinking, although I also have some, well, alternate perspectives to present.
VW: parib — The bone of Adam's from which Eve was made.
Me: I couldn't write all day, the wifi was out all evening, and now there are 316 (Ajira bingo!) comments.
Okay, there might be by now, but there weren't when I wrote that — Blogger just said that there were, although it has since reneged and apparently gone back to counting properly.
VW: vashtipr — What a souse would call someone who leaves extremely large gratuities.
@Rainier/Gracie:
When Ben explained to Locke that he (Ben) had to turn the wheel because he was being banished and when you are banned, you don't get to come back. This could a more figurative than literal sense. So not a 'physically unable' to but rather a more 'not invited back again'.
We've seen Ben banish Widmore and Ben inferring banishment from Christian's message to Locke. Yet, both have returned to the island already.
I wish to clarify: They have got these two actors doing Paik and Widmore, and if you are familiar with people like them (the characters, not the actors), as I have unfortunately been, these ACTORS "have it down to a science". It makes me honestly feel that whomever is writing for these two men actually had, at some point, met my father because the characters have been REAL. I feel like I know these guys. Sometimes it's difficult to keep the actors and their characters separated, but they are playing their parts PERFECTLY, as that is how these people REALLY behave. The reason Widmore has been so wretched is because in real life people like him are, indeed, wretched. They are hateful. They ENJOY being hateful. People like Ellie ARE anal about the proper placement of each and every piece of silverware, and gee, aren't you a ninny if you don't know where to put them yourself. And Widmore has done it SO WELL!! Paik too.
BUT to try to pass someone off as being like that, and then at the end, to turn around and say, "He had his reasons," or "He was justified in the end" just doesn't happen. That doesn't wash. If the writers NOW try to pass that behavior off as ok for whatever reason, it doesn't ring true to anybody who has ever been there.
Earlier in this post, people, including myself, were posting about Charlie and his lack of a rush to find a fix. I was able to make the statement that I did because I've known junkies before and have seen them come down. It's on my list of things I hope NEVER to see again, but I know of what I speak. So what Lost did with Charlie, seemed, well, Lost. Or wrong. How about it appeared unresearched? (Yes, with Lost, I know better.) Like they just didn't know what happens to a junkie hitting the ground. Someone else actually said that or something like it.
What I'm saying about the "entitled" is the same thing. You can't know someone like that and EVER justify anything they did, how they did it, or why? They live in their own little world. So, as with Charlie's current story, I will again be Lost if they try to turn Charles Widmore into just a lovely, little, misunderstood chap. Hopefully, this clarifies why I typed what I typed just before this.
Some general thoughts on the episode (which may seem obvious, superficial, or redundant) to clear my virtual palette before specific analysis...
We got confirmation that the AU was created by the Jughead explosion.
We also got confirmation that Daniel really did fall for Charlotte, despite some skeptics' opinion that he'd only professed his love for her to save her life amongst the 1950s Others brigade.
We continued the veritable greatest-hits parade of not just characters and locations but dialogue, including Charles Widmore telling Desmond, "The Island isn't done with you yet." I loved hearing this, because for all the fascinating backstory we've had during recent episodes at certain points this season it's felt as though we were slipping away from why the Island itself was special. And whether it's above or below Jacob in the cosmic hierarchy — Did he create the Island and its special properties to contain Smokey, or was he charged by another entity with guarding Smokey and protecting the Island's special properties? — it pretty clearly has funky stuff going on with the EM energy, whatever spacetime-hopping mechanism fuels the Frozen Donkey Wheel, and those healing properties. Widmore's invocation of the Island instead of Jacob reinforces the theory that it has some kind of at least abstract consciousness of its own; whether it controls Jacob, is under Jacob's control, or exists apart from him remains to be seen, but even though it's unlikely that we'll get an itemized explanation of all the mysteries surrounding it I dearly hope that we get some way to, for lack a better phrase, place them in relation to one another.
VW: fiaugho — Archaic expression of disgust directed at a lady of the night who only operates during the eighth month of the year. [Longest stretch for a verification-word def ever!]
I've been titling the intermittent Lost posts on my blog after Beatles songs. Just when I was about to go with "All You Need Is Love" for the next one, I realized that "Got to Get You into My Life" worked even better; "Across the Universe" I've been saving for maximum application.
But it's interesting to see that Lost really is largely and explicity, if not only, about love. Jin and Sun's renewed, ardent devotion; the bond between Rose and Bernard; Penny as Desmond's constant; what the loss of Nadia, twice, did to Sayid; how glad we were to see John with Helen in the other timeline; the strange, all-too-brief, terribly bittersweet relationship between Charlie and Claire; the triangles and quadrangles of Jack, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer/James — all of these were apparently not just part of the serial drama (or melodrama) but one of its points. The question of whether free will can trump fate has been hanging out there along with that of science vs. faith — and even moreso than faith in the Island, now, it seems as if the most relevant, grandest power is, to quote Diane Warren's excruciating Enterprise theme, faith of the heart. Love doesn't just tear down walls of inhibition or bigotry, it tears down walls between layers of reality.
VW: lowytor — A laywer who specializes in prosecuting loiterers.
Blam said...
Some general thoughts on the episode (which may seem obvious, superficial, or redundant) to clear my virtual palette before specific analysis...
I said: WOW!!!!
:)
Ummmm. I would just like to say that those two things written by Blam just above were beautiful. Just absolutely beautifully thought about, worded, and put to computer.
Some time back when I was reading Nikki's first book, I wondered where LOVE was going to fall into all of this, and all that love entails. I think we all know that one of the biggest answers that we don't know yet how it's falling precisely into place, is just love. When the show is over, love will have figured into every single aspect of how everything wraps up, I think. Or it should.
Again, Blam, that was well done.
Gracie: Ummmm. I would just like to say that those two things written by Blam just above were beautiful. Just absolutely beautifully thought about, worded, and put to computer.
Aw, shucks. 8^) Thanks.
VW: manemob — A throng of fans that attacks a teen idol because of his hair.
A few more thoughts before I break for dinner (but I'm staying in tonight, so I hope more to come):
I don't see in Penny what Desmond does, to be honest with y'all, but I believe that he sees it.
I don't think Desmond's going along with Sayid blindly; I think he's playing along with Sayid carefully.
I do think that Desmond's really with Widmore, but we're missing some information — like exactly what's going on in his head behind that enigmatic, calm compliance.
Alternate Desmond has found purpose in Penny and perhaps in uniting others with their true loves — perhaps even in returning history to the way it's (maybe) supposed to be, where he and Penny are married with child, if he's now aware of the original timeline. He wants the manifest of Oceanic 815, I believe, to show his fellow passengers what Charlie and now he have seen; whether after the fainting spell (and return of Original Desmond's consciousness to the OT in 2008 on the Island) he has insight about that original timeline beyond what his visions and Daniel's suppositions suggest, I'm not sure.
Original Desmond likewise has conviction, but exactly what he saw in the alternate 2004 that has him falling in lockstep with Widmore before even hearing him out is unknown. Maybe he found Alternate Charles so sincere and steadfast that he accepts that Original Charles is likewise shooting straight with him and there's no time to waste; maybe he was so profoundly affected by what Alternate Charlie told him, what Alternate Daniel told and showed him, and what he saw himself that he's not sweating the details; maybe, and most likely, he saw more than we saw him see and/or otherwise accumulated special knowledge, and is at least as up to speed as Widmore on what needs to happen.
VW: monab — What "The Situation" will have if he lets himself go.
Blam, if I may add to this?
Blam said: Jin and Sun's renewed, ardent devotion; the bond between Rose and Bernard; Penny as Desmond's constant; what the loss of Nadia, twice, did to Sayid; how glad we were to see John with Helen in the other timeline; the strange, all-too-brief, terribly bittersweet relationship between Charlie and Claire; the triangles and quadrangles of Jack, Kate, Juliet, and Sawyer/James — all of these were apparently not just part of the serial drama (or melodrama) but one of its points.
In that part about Sayid and his loss of Nadia, that's where I want to go. Love and the loss of it.
On Lost there are probably hundreds of examples of loss of love from the easier to handle, let's just go with Walt having to leave Vincent when he left on the raft (but thought he'd see him again), to the bone-crushing, heart-stopping, please-don't-let-this-happen, tears-running-down-your-face, turn-your-head-and-look-away losses.
But one that I always remember, that others seem to forget, is Sawyers loss of his parents love during his childhood and beyond, AS WELL AS what that loss cost him throughout his lifetime as we know it. How Sawyers life would have been different if not for that one mistake his mother made, never knowing the consequences until way too late, and not living to see what her mistake would cost her son. Not to mention what it would DO to him.
Am I doing another Shakespeare thing if I say that whomever said "It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all"? If Shakes said that, I can hear everybody groaning at me just because it IS Shakes, but I'd have to agree with the author, whomever it is. To NEVER know what love means, feels like, how it breaks you while at the same time makes you stronger. To have no ability to grasp the meaning of that would be, to me, like death. I think I'd prefer death. But it's not always a simple thing to hold to your heart, (all I mean by that is that love can be difficult to maintain for various reasons, and I can see why sometimes people just let go) which reminds me of "There is love of course. And then there's life, it's enemy." And Spouse was trying to remember one that we don't know if we have correctly, and I certainly don't know the author, but this is how I found it on a webpage. (I hate looking this stuff up because I usually find some idiot who quoted it wrong. I apologize if that is what happened as it was NOT Spouse's intention.) How utterly peculiar given the name of our show: "The way to love anything is to realize that it might be lost." Does anybody know if that is the correct quote?
To whom do I owe the quote?
Anyway, my point was that Blam had worded all of our "loves" so beautifully, that to me it was poignant enough to remind me of all of our "losses". And I agree with Blam; Lost is about love, absolutely. That has to be a point the writers hoped to drive home. But isn't it also, and maybe equally, about loss?
I can't believe sometimes we are all writing about a TV show!
@Anyone: Does anyone but me remember "that Walt is special"?
Does anyone think there is anything to Walt's specialness that could be applied to Desmond's special abilities? Or that could help Desmond?
Just a thought.
Fred said...
@Gracie: Another thought: It's almost like the show is saying, "Be careful what you wish for cause you just might get it . Yes, and if wishes were horses ....
I'm sorry, but I have to ask about this. Is this a turn of phrase sort of thing? Spouse and I know your phrase like this: "If wishes were a**holes, everyone would have one wish." How did you go from wishes to horses? If this is a USA regional thing, we are unfamiliar with it. Or a turn of phrase we've not heard of. The original phrase that started it "Be careful", we know that one, obviously. But not how anything there relates or goes to horses. This is not what I call a brain disconnect for me. Spouse doesn't know this one either or how you got there. Please explain.
And thanks.
CBP68 said...
Another question that will not be answered, I would love to know how Charles accumlated his funding and fortune. I know he is OBSESSED with the island, so when was he actually working to make the money to fund all these projects? You can make ridiculous amounts of money in the corporate world, but you have to WORK. So, how does Charles do it???
Me: This is part of my questions about Charles too. His obsession with the island. His misc. projects like planting a plane on the bottom of the ocean. I don't know how he does it, but I think others whom we have not met or heard of, except for a few, are involved too.
The few I refer to were originally associated with Ben, but that doesn't mean they can't be "island associated" too. This would be a woman and two men. I think her name was "Jan" and the names of the men were given, but I don't recall them. Jan was at the meat store holding Locke's body for Ben. She also met and talked to Jack when he came for the coffin. While Ben was there with Jan, in that episode, he asked her about two men by name. We've never been given more info on anybody from there that I recall, but who knows who these people are, if the meat store is a 'front', or what their worth is.
Regarding this sentence: "I think others whom we have not met or heard of, except for a few, are involved too." The reason I think of this, is because The Lamp Post was not built by Charles Widmore, nor by any one man alone. Others were involved in that. Something else we will never get answers to IMHO.
@Gracie: and your 'if wishes' saying. OMG, I about fell off my chair when I read your aphorism. I have NEVER heard that before, but darn funny. I have know the one Fred posted since forever and I think it's a reeeeeeally old British saying, I think from a children's story or nursery rhyme. Not sure tho. :) lostnadream
Anonymous said...
@Gracie: and your 'if wishes' saying. OMG, I about fell off my chair when I read your aphorism. I have NEVER heard that before, but darn funny. I have know the one Fred posted since forever and I think it's a reeeeeeally old British saying, I think from a children's story or nursery rhyme. Not sure tho. :) lostnadream
Me: Pardon me, but seriously, Anonymous, is this for real? Please, no head games. I can't do that in my condition. There are variations out there of mine: "If wishes were a**holes, some people actually get three or four." That kind of thing. But I have never heard of wishes and horses, and I'm still trying to clear my head on how he got from point A to point B. Spouse hadn't either.
@Blam - Thanks for that. I appreciate clarification.
Maybe we can get something from comparing the other times we saw Desmond flash.
"Flashes Before your Eyes"
1. Effects events in the past
2. Past Desmond's consciousness travels to the future
3. Past Desmond forgets all about it once the flashes are over
4. Current Desmond returns upon fulfillment of Past Desmond’s mission, connection with his constant, Penny
Multiple with Charlie death visions
1. Effects events in the (near) future
2. Current Desmond's consciousness "sees" the future, but doesn't travel – there is no future Desmond
3. Current Desmond takes actions to change the future, (which eventually course corrects)
4. The flashes stop once Desmond completes his life saving acts. He didn't see the drowning in a vision; all the prior visions were meant to have him save Charlie so he could get to his final act of sacrifice.
"Happily Ever After"
1. Effects events in the present (although reset) - same timeline, sideways "manufactured" reality
2. Island Desmond's consciousness breaks through to Sideways Desmond to make "their" deeply buried memories of the original reality available to Sideways Desmond. We can infer Sideways Desmond is a later version of Island Desmond, with buried memories of events up to and including the events right before his consciousness jump
3. BOTH have memories of the experience.
4. ??
In "Flashes", resolution comes with connecting with the constant. In the Charlie death visions, it comes with Charlie's death. In "Happily Ever After", we do not yet have resolution. We know what Sideways Desmond experienced, but, as you say, we are not entirely sure of what Island Desmond knows about his purpose. We can surmise that he knows he needs to do something in his Island reality to match what he will do in his sideways reality, probably both involving some level of evangelization to the rest of the Losties/candidates.
OK, I worked it out for myself. Thanks.
@Blam: I believe on your contact page you have an e-mail address, or at least there is a place where it appears you have an e-mail address.
May I contact you privately? I always ask first because I do respect the privacy of others, and would like mine respected as well.
If not, I'm good. Just say "No". No harm, no foul.
Thanks!
WV: capedlyp: A mouth piece currently wearing a cover?
Gracie: Am I doing another Shakespeare thing if I say that whomever said "It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all"?
No. Shakespeare did write a play called Love's Labours Lost, but "'Tis better to have..." is from Tennyson. Either way, you explained your own thoughts on love and loss (within and without the show) quite eloquently. While I don't for a minute want you to think that I'm dismissing what you wrote as obvious or unnecessary, by the way, I will point out that the show's title, Lost, has long been seen as referring to more than the castaways being lost on an island; it has been about how they have been directionless, or lost, in their lives and what or whom they have lost to death or other circumstances.
VW: comeda — (1) The father of comedy. (2) A Russian with limited English confirming that, yes, you should follow him/her.
Gracie: "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride" is an old, oft-repeated (at least in my experience) aphorism — although, frankly, it's just the first part that gets uttered 99% of the time. The point, I believe, is that clearly wishing gets you nowhere because those who likely spend the most time doing so have nothing to show for it.
VW: dryotch — A sober beeyotch?
JS: Multiple with Charlie death visions ... The flashes stop once Desmond completes his life saving acts. He didn't see the drowning in a vision; all the prior visions were meant to have him save Charlie so he could get to his final act of sacrifice.
You know, I'm not sure I ever thought about it that way before (duh, me). I still don't get why that would be the sole, first and last focus of his future sight (except for him waking up with Penny after remembering that he met Daniel in the past, if you count that, and of course unless I'm forgetting anything), but it I really appreciate you laying it out.
JS: We can infer Sideways Desmond is a later version of Island Desmond, with buried memories of events up to and including the events right before his consciousness jump
Do you mean that Sideways Desmond, and all of the sideways timeline, is "later" than the 2008 Island present we're watching, or just that after 2008 Island Desmond's consciousness flashes over to share space in Sideways 2004 Desmond's mind Sideways Desmond is sort-of upgraded to include 2008 Island Desmond's knowledge of the whole original timeline up to 2008? If you mean the former, I'm not sure what I'm missing that has you inferring this.
JS: OK, I worked it out for myself. Thanks.
?!?!?
VW: arrater — Someone who decides that movies have too much sex, violence, or profanity for G, PG, or PG-13.
Gracie: May I contact you privately?
Absolutely.
VW: mulluse — To think about how something works.
@Blam who said: While I don't for a minute want you to think that I'm dismissing what you wrote as obvious or unnecessary, by the way, I will point out that the show's title, Lost, has long been seen as referring to more than the castaways being lost on an island; it has been about how they have been directionless, or lost, in their lives and what or whom they have lost to death or other circumstances.
Me: WOW! Okay, I was with you all the way up to the last part of the last sentence. Complete agreement until then. And I have done some serious thinking about this show! Reread what you wrote above but stop BEFORE "and what or whom they have lost to death or other circumstances." I never saw it just that way you worded it. NO. That's not right. Yes, I DID, but I didn't think other people saw it that way. BUT the losses and deaths that I saw which affected our beloved losties, that I believed EVERYONE was supposed to be pondering were the ones we saw such as what happened to Sayid when Shannon died, how Juliet affected Sawyer, etc. Over and above the deaths shown on the show, obviously I thought about it which is why I commented, but you said, well it's up there, and you make it sound like EVERYBODY thought of Lost that way. I actually didn't think people did. Or maybe I want to say that people knew about it, but they didn't think of it in terms of how these background losses would keep affecting people, over and over, like the Sawyer example I gave. Did that make sense, cause suddenly I'm starting to feel like mentally it's not coming together? Maybe this will help: A guy who works with Spouse and watches the show told Spouse one day that he thought some of this "old sh*t" like the death of Sawyer's mom, and the loss of Ana Lucia's pregnancy were unimportant. THAT'S where I got that idea that not everyone thought of it as I did. To me, every loss is important, but because of that comment, I didn't think other people thought so.
Understand? If not, I'll try again. Just say the word.
WV: cancin: I'm just as capable of violating one of the Ten Commandments as anybody else?
Gracie: I understand, and you could very well be right. I'll admit that "lost" in the sense of "directionless" has probably been considered the secondary allusion of the title (if the primary is "lost" in the sense of "unable to be found, having crashing on a mysterious island"). And maybe "lost" in the sense of having sinned, rather than being saved, consigned to perdition, was also higher up on the list of other interpretations than "taken from". I got the sense over the last couple of seasons, though, that what these people have sacrificed had become a more prominent plot point, based on how such loss was emphasised in the show and, I thought, discussed here; again, I could well be mistaken and guilty of basing that supposition on my own viewing.
VW: shicoke — Really bad-tasting cola.
Rainier: [@SP:] And I quite like the idea that the Eloise in each timeline is committed to preserving the one that she is in.
Yes. As I wrote after seeing the episode:
So why was AU Eloise trying to keep Desmond from changing things in that reality? Is she not the same Eloise we "know" — at least after a fashion, with some kind of shared consciousness — but rather a true AU counterpart to the OU Eloise? Are OEloise and AEloise at odds in wanting to preserve their timelines?
VW: corig — To put something together in unison.
Thanks Benny! But like you said, that really didn't say anything, but I did like the idea the question poser said about bleed thru. Interesting.
word verif-demac-what I want for Christmas so I can throw away the piece of crap pc I have now!
@Blam-"VW: lowytor — A laywer who specializes in prosecuting loiterers."
hahahah, and also lowlifes!
word verif-brubs-brown shrubs (I know, pretty lame)
I don't know if I ever kudo'd you on the recap, Nik, because I was so behind, but it was an insightful effort as always. Could you maybe do something about each episode bringing us closer to the series finale, though?
Nikki: I WAS SO HAPPY. ... [Y]ou know that scene at the end of How the Grinch Stole Christmas where his heart grew three sizes? That’s how my chest felt at the end of this episode.
Ditto! I know exactly... how your... chest.. felt. *ahem* Poor choice of words, there, but yes, it was so good to see these characters — Desmond, Eloise, Penny, Daniel, and of course Charlie, dark as he was.
Nikki: COULD YOU PLEASE COME OVER TO THE CURB AND FRIGGIN’ HELP ALREADY?!
All kinds of total ridiculousness!
Nikki: The sideways world, for Eloise, is the world of GIANT HAIR.
"Would you like to try something new, Mrs. Widmore?"
"No, Francisco, I think we'll stick with the 'I AM A HIGH-SOCIETY WIFE'."
Nikki: Dolce. Will that be where Desmond and Penny meet? Sweet!!
Ooh... Pun intended, Nikki? ("dolce" = "sweet")
VW: preozow — Kevin Federline before his "rap career"?
Zari: exhampix : Photos of Sunday’s Easter dinner (the remnants).
I'm loving your VW definitions.
Gracie: Maybe Widmore was such a bastard because Penny is his daughter and Desmond is his son.
Maybe Widmore was such a bastard because Penny is his mother and Desmond is his dad. Have we ever gotten extra-textual confirmation from Darlton that little Charlie doesn't grow up to be Charles Widmore? [And before you say, "Ew! That makes his mother his daughter!": (1) Not necessarily; only Penny's mum knows for sure. (B) So? It's some head-spinning paradoxicality but it ain't incest.]
Nurse Brian: Has any comic book fans out there ever read the Superman story called, "For the Man Who Has Everything"?
I've read it many times, and it's a gem both on a pure story level and for the continuity geekitude that Alan Moore inserted into the heroes' visions. Plus it has some immortal throwaway lines and moments, which Moore excels at as much as the big-picture stuff — like the closet of Kandors or "Think clean thoughts, chum." Y'know, I didn't mind pre-Crisis Jason Todd being a (non-literal) clone of Dick Grayson; it was certainly better than what we got later. But I digress.
VW: prodgi — A kid who's extremely good at putting on his judo outfit.
@Gracie-It was Jill, not Jan, and I remember this because I thought it was funny when Jack met her for him to say, "I'm Jack, are you Jill?"
word verif-amort-John Locke's dead body.
asiancolossus: I somehow doubt that Penny would find some strange man coming up to her in an empty stadium at night mildly amusing and a turnon.
Well, I don't think she'll be happy when she finds out he works for her father — unless we're too short on time for the story to address that.
Teebore: @Ashlie: ... So you're thinking then, at some point we'll see Island Desmond cross physically into the flash sideways and hop on that plane to talk with Jack, all the while his counterpart is also on the plane? Interesting...
Except that, as I've seen others point out since I wrote this (Benny?), the Desmond we saw in this episode remembers Jack from the plane, so even if the Des that we saw in "LA X" was ODes, popping in and then getting out before he could be seen beside himself (so to speak), ADes has to have also met Jack on the flight — and I think that Jack specifically references that Desmond sat down next to him for a spell.
Nikki: I just think they're far too careful to have let the wedding band slip, but I could be wrong.
Seriously? I think that in one shot it could've been a wedding ring, in another it could've been a metal picture frame with long hair and stubble, and in another it could've been a wooden picture frame with short hair, no stubble, and somebody accidentally standing in the background... and they wouldn't have caught any of it because they were too busy trying to convince us that it was earth-shatteringly important to call the wedding ring Jeremy Bentham.
humanebean: someone already mentioned this but I, too, thought that the EM room and the solitary chair set up in the middle was evocative of Jacob's cabin.
Ditto!
humanebean: Later, Eloise skewered him with the "you have what you wanted most" line. His desperate need for approval/insecurity led him to nearly throw away everything before.
You know, I get that, and the reminder of how he chased Widmore's approval in some misguided bid for legitimacy in seeking Penny's hand helps the idea go down a little more easily, but... Well, I didn't buy during the episode and the more I think about it still don't buy that approval being the thing that he truly wanted/wants most, because if that thing isn't and hasn't always truly been Penny then a (possibly just established as the) central conceit of the show sorta goes poof.
humanebean: Will Jack "show" John Locke?
And since John already has (pardon the term) Helen in the new timeline, will what he see instead be the Island?
JackFan: [H]as anyone explained the connection between Des & Penny agreeing to meet for coffee in SW world and Juliet's dying words to Sawyer?
Maybe it'll just be another "everyone is connected" moment when they show up together... Maybe Juliet was channeling Penny... Maybe Juliet is Penny and Kate and every other woman on the show, and Sawyer is Desmond and Jack and every other man, and they're all Adam and Eve, and it's all really about how Man and Woman need each other (which is mildly, well, not homophobic, but homoignorant, yet still very sweet).
VW: refia — Mobsters with OCD.
@JS-Did you mean the ep "The Constant" when you kept referring to the ep "Flashes before Your Eyes"? That would make more sense.
word verif-siscr-half of the pair, but you still should NEVER run with it!
@Blam-JS-"JS: Multiple with Charlie death visions ... The flashes stop once Desmond completes his life saving acts. He didn't see the drowning in a vision; all the prior visions were meant to have him save Charlie so he could get to his final act of sacrifice."
I just got done rewatching season 3 AGAIN with my husband (first time for him), and he actually does tell Claire, that "over there is where Charlie died", and we all (everybody) saw his vision in "Catch 22" where Charlie takes it in the neck, so we know he saw that one.
word verif-undisers-people who like to give positive affirmations.
@Blam-"Seriously? I think that in one shot it could've been a wedding ring, in another it could've been a metal picture frame with long hair and stubble, and in another it could've been a wooden picture frame with short hair, no stubble, and somebody accidentally standing in the background... and they wouldn't have caught any of it because they were too busy trying to convince us that it was earth-shatteringly important to call the wedding ring Jeremy Bentham."
Oh, that was sooo awsome! I'm lol, my co-workers are staring again! I'll have to show that one to my son!
@Blam: VW: lowytor — A laywer who specializes in prosecuting loiterers.
I should sue you for that, but I’m retired!
AND: I'm loving your VW definitions. And I’m loving yours more! We’ve got a mutual admiration society going here. ;)
Word Verf: habious : ...Corpus – show me the body!
@Blam - Do you mean that Sideways Desmond, and all of the sideways timeline, is "later" than the 2008 Island present we're watching, or just that after 2008 Island Desmond's consciousness flashes over to share space in Sideways 2004 Desmond's mind Sideways Desmond is sort-of upgraded to include 2008 Island Desmond's knowledge of the whole original timeline up to 2008? If you mean the former, I'm not sure what I'm missing that has you inferring this.
Probably the latter, sort of. I do not think Sideways Desmond has full knowledge, but Island Desmond might.
@Jessica: Thanks for noticing the Buffy reference I have so much dialogue fragments stuck in my mind and Lost and Supernatural gives me a chance to use them. Now to the Lockes, I wonder if there is a way for the alternate reality Locke to fill in the void left by the murdered Locke. He would understand himself giving him something to use against the MIB.
One thing I do wonder about is the relationship between the 2 pairs of MIB and Jacob and Eloise and Charles.
@Blam said (re: Des & Penny agreeing to meet for coffee in SW world and Juliet's dying words to Sawyer):
Maybe it'll just be another "everyone is connected" moment when they show up together... and it's all really about how Man and Woman need each other (which is mildly, well, not homophobic, but homoignorant, yet still very sweet).
I like the sentiment in your interpretation... it leads to a series conclusion that is "very sweet." However, I don't think Darlton will give us complete sweetness; some bitter with the sweet seems inevitable.
@crazy in lost - yes, why I said Flashes and not The Constant I don't know. I kept correcting it from The Constant to Flashes. Also, I am not sure what you mean re: Desmond's visions. I think he saw all of Charlie’s potential deaths, and worked to prevent them, until the very last one.
@Blam - Re: which Desmond knows/does what. I am changing my mind a bit on this. I think that the sideways world did not always exist. It was created (MiB promises?) and once sideways Desmond gets everyone on board, they will be joining their island consciousness', and the sideways world will be eliminated. The island world is real, the sideways world is fake and the folks in the sideways world have manufactured memories leading up to flight 815 turbulence.
@Benny who said: @JS: In my opinion, Sayid is still counted. While claimed, he remains a candidate, bodily somewhat, though not the eventual replacement. Since he was once a candidate, I think he remains one.
Jacob tells Ilana there are 6 candidates remaining. One of them ends up being Sayid, which she escorts back. She still claims there to be 6 candidates, either she counts Sayid or a new candidate has been included.
Me: Good grief. Can you please explain this? Candidates. I've got: Jack, Sawyer, Sun, Jin, Hurley, and Kate. These people, along with Sayid and Locke, were "touched" by Jacob. (People seem to want to eliminate Kate, but I'm not convinced yet either way.)
BUT I thought Ilana said something ELSE along the lines of needing six "people" which is where I got the idea of dropping a Kwon and making the sixth person Frank, the pilot of the plane. Not a candidate, but still needed. Nikki knows what I was talking about and where that came from.
Personally, I'd like to get all of them in here somehow, including Sayid and Locke, but I just don't see that happening. Please explain.
WV: lankil: The ankle on your left leg?
@Gracie--About 'If wishes were horses, beggars would ride'. Wasn't messin' with ya, wouldn't do that. It was a recall from childhood, but couldn't remember from what context. Still don't, but I just checked it out on wiki, and it says it derives from some old English saying from @ the 1600's. Amazing how the context of something can remain viable for centuries! -Hope your day is great, lostnadream
Benny: Where/When did we learn this: "One of them ends up being Sayid, which she escorts back." ??
@Blam said: Well, I didn't buy during the episode and the more I think about it still don't buy that approval being the thing that he truly wanted/wants most, because if that thing isn't and hasn't always truly been Penny then a (possibly just established as the) central conceit of the show sorta goes poof.
Per my most recent post, I agree with you, in that it wasn’t his actual deepest want, but what someone, or something (that doesn’t really understand human nature), thought he most wanted. That somewhat childish entity that promises surface things that he or even his targets THINK they wanted or would have made their lives better, but not their deepest darkest wants, those they hid from others, or may not have even realize they had.
For example, maybe Daniel always wondered what his life would be like if he were allowed to become a musician, Jack hoped he could be a good dad, Sawyer fantasized about being on the other side of the law, Kate wished she hadn’t killed her father, Locke wanted the love of a good woman, Eloise wanted her relationship with Charles to last, and to have not killed her own son, etc. but none of these necessarily address their deepest needs and concerns.
@JS and Blam--discussion of Des's deepest wish being granted in the Alt. If I may weigh in, I'm of the same opinion as JS. The characters seemingly are living lives in which their deepest wish has been fulfilled. (Be careful what you wish for!) Des had a rocky road with romance before the Island, including with Penny. When he found her you'd think that would've been the pinnacle of fulfillment, but no, he desperately needed Widmore's approval and he left Penny to 'prove himself worthy'--not of her/for her (she didn't need proof), but for her dad! Des may have some unresolved Daddy issues and that is what is being fulfilled in the Altverse, IMO.
Jessica said: @ Rufus
"Nice Buffy reference!
“Now can someone physically cross the time lines? I'm thinking it could be important if, say someone like Locke could cross into the MiB's timeline.”
Oooohhh! How awesome would that be! FLocke vs. Locke! Intriguing!"
And by reading that I've got something stuck. It's like having something stuck on the tip of your tongue, but you can't spit it out. So here's my best effort: MIB is assuming the identity of Locke, but is able to change to other identities, such as Smokester. If Jacob or his replacement could (pardon the pun) lock Locke into one being and, IF, somehow, Locke could be time-traveled back to himself AND ALIVE, we could literally have a face-off between Locke and Locke. If he had not yet died, he would be the kinder, more gentle, reasonable, nature loving, John Locke. AND he would still have his "thing" for this island, which gave him back his legs. In that timeframe I believe he knows Helen is gone, and that there is nothing for him back home. Not to mention that he is, among many others, now a murderer. He might WANT to stay AND protect the island against this bad guy who at one time inhabited his body. Then Jessica gets her wish of "Flocke vs. Locke"! TOO COOL!
As I said, this is stuck somewhere in my head. I got as far as I did, but can get no further. Anybody want to jump on this band wagon? It IS INTRIGUING!!
I guess I didn't really introduce myself before. How rude of me. I've 'hovered' at this site for a couple of seasons now (yeah, I'm a late bloomer) and always liked the comraderie here and enjoyed the sheer relish of Lost expressed by Nikki and her pals. So thanks for all that! Hopefully I'll have contributed a little something before all's over (sniff). I lurve Lost!
@lostnadream: Honey, I'm new too to the posting end although I've been reading here since I first found Lost AND NIKKI'S BOOKS. If you haven't read them, I recommend it.
Anyway, everyone here has made me feel welcome although it was made known before I came in the door that I've been ill for some time, and at times, have mental blocks or limitations. It's like a HAPPY ROOM! "Everyone welcome. Don't hold back. Just jump right in there", kind of place.
So, WELCOME TO NIK AT NITE!
THIS IS NOT A SPOILER!
I asked this once before and I don't recall seeing that anyone answered me. I wondered if you guys ignored me because you considered it a "spoiler", per se, or if just nobody saw the question. But if I'm right, as I recall it, YOU GUYS WERE THE ONES TALKING ABOUT IT, so please just confirm or deny. I think I even saw something about it in my local paper, so it's not like it's a secret or anything.
Didn't Cuse say in a well published, and well-commented upon, interview that this story does NOT end happily ever after for everyone? I actually believe he left off my last two words, but I can't bring myself to say that.
AHA!!!
In this article first mentioned by humanebean (thank you BTW), the author says this:
"But what I most want is to see the ultimate fates of these characters, to see them have endings that fit who they've become (or been revealed to be) over the course of six seasons."
"That fit who they've become (or been revealed to be)" EXACTLY!!! Which is precisely why Charles Widmore can NEVER be anything more than the wretched monster that he is!"
Gracie: Where do we know the woman who walks Charlie out to Desmond?
I thought it might've been Michael's (ex-)girlfriend, Walt's mom, who I think was a lawyer, but no — Walt's mom was actually played by Tamara Taylor, who's now on Bones. Since writing this, I see that the question's already been answered, but it gives me a chance to plug that show, whose 100th episode from last week is a great jumping-on point.
Gracie: @Anybody: Who or what is "BAMF Sayid"?
For the X-Men readers, it's a version of Sayid who can teleport like Nightcrawler. For everyone else, it's "Bad-Ass Mother-Frakker Sayid".
Colleen: On the reality we're more familiar with, Eloise was pregnant but after the events of the Island broke up with Widmore and possibly married a man named Farraday, or at least used that name on a birth certificate.
Her name in the familiar reality is Mrs. Hawking, remember. So if we're talking things at face value, either she married a man named Faraday and gave Daniel his name, then married a man named Hawking, or more likely Faraday was her own "maiden" name (never really liked that term) and/or an alias that she just plucked out of the ether for Daniel. Lost may well be playing fast-and-loose in this department in favor of using names that are clever allusions while serving to hide characters' possible relationships to one another, however — something that is the storytellers' prerogative but would be much more acceptable if even a modicum of explanation for or just acknowledgment of the circumstances were given (i.e. Jeremy Bentham, exactly how Widmore + Hawking = Faraday).
VW: eling — Marrying into Superman's birth family.
lostnadream: I guess I didn't really introduce myself before. How rude of me. I've 'hovered' at this site for a couple of seasons now (yeah, I'm a late bloomer) and always liked the comraderie here and enjoyed the sheer relish of Lost expressed by Nikki and her pals. So thanks for all that! Hopefully I'll have contributed a little something before all's over (sniff).
You already have. I appreciated what you had to say about the Chopin that Daniel was playing. One of these days I'll try to re-read Gödel Escher Bach... I hope you keep posting.
VW: anharrit — What the mique shall do to the urrth.
Gracie: "But what I most want is to see the ultimate fates of these characters, to see them have endings that fit who they've become (or been revealed to be) over the course of six seasons."
I must say, that doesn't necessarily sound dire. You could read it coldly as "just desserts" — but "endings that fit" hardly to me damns everyone to hell (on Earth or otherwise). As for the "or been revealed to be" clause, well, maybe Widmore's being revealed as something other than, as you say, a "wretched monster"; if Ben can find redemption and be made sympathetic — which I'm still not sure he can, either in story terms or in my own eyes — then Charles can too.
VW:DEINGAC — After ENIAC and UNIVAC, the computer that started thinking it was a god.
MareBabe to TiaSabita: "But just now when I went back through recent posts looking for the correct date to reference for Gracie, above, I zoomed past Nikki’s post of 3-24-10, entitled, “Lost Series Finale Title Announced”, and I was reminded to ask you: Have you seen that? The comments will be of particular interest to you. :)"
And I went zooming back to see what the title is gonna be and "You're Kidding, Right?"
hahahahahahahaahahah
I'm not saying it here in print, but that's what Spouse and I said the name of the last show was gonna be during the episode where Jack is reading to Aaron. And I just can't believe that's really gonna be it!!!!!
Follow up question to my last post, and I'll leave it up to each individual whether I am or am not being facitious:
Does that mean the very last line spoken by whatever character will be, "And the all lived Happily Ever After?"
Re: the whole Hawking/Faraday/Widmore thing... My sister posits that the writer's didn't realize that Daniel was going to be the son of Hawking and Widmore when they initially introduced his character. I would prefer to think that they did and gave him a different name as a red herring *cough*Bentham*cough* so that they wouldn't give that away so early in the game.
Or maybe (Ethan Rom anyone) people connected with the Island like giving their children full names, not just first names.
VW: pertnest - the place you keep your shampoo.
So I'm over on Nikki's post about the name of the series finale, and you all everybody is talking about having a HUGE party the night of the finale........
Waaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!
Am I the only one who sees something wrong there? It's gonna end. Over. Done. And I'm gonna wanna crawl under a rock even though I might want to celebrate however it ends. Because it's over Folks. And then six days are gonna go by, and I'm gonna start getting "Lost Anxiety" like it's due to come back on anytime. But it's not. As in EVER. And that dumb rock starts looking good again. Over. Done. Finished. Bye-Bye. Kaput.
And you all everybody want to have a party?? I'm gonna be Lost for about a month. Maybe even the equivalent of a season break. And I came into this show late, remember? I'm gonna miss these "people". They really touched my life with their loves and their losses, and I hope, well, I just hope.
@BENNY AND JS AND TEEBORE:
Feeling a little small here. Yay high to a grasshopper. I'd call myself an idiot if I didn't understand the situation.
First of all let me say I was just sorta chillin' here, reading back thru the posts, and trying to think and I stumbled on this:
" Gracie said...
Ok Benny, have had it."
This is just a tidbit, but even in heated discussions, I don't talk to people this way unless I know them well and they know me. That was supposed to say "Ok Benny, Have at it." As in, "explain this to me please." The way it reads sounds rude and I apologize. IF the time ever comes, and I doubt it, that I'm on my very last nerve and you're sitting on it, I will say, "Ok Benny, HAVE HAD IT."
Then @JS said: "Jacob tells Ilana there are 6 candidates remaining. One of them ends up being Sayid, which she escorts back."
When I read this the first time I wanted to know how you found out Sayid left the island AGAIN and where you learned Ilana had to escort him off. AND why you were allowed to put spoilers on here cause I didn't want to know that! I AM SO SORRY!!! OMG!!! NOW I know what you meant. The first time around went right over my head, out the window, and just kept right on traveling down the road. Can we spell DUH?
Then just after this post Teebore jumps in to politely do an A B C thing just for me to explain this whole thing. Teebore: although that should have been completely unnecessary, you are a Doll for having taken the time to do so.
And I feel like an utter and complete moron. I did not come here to waste everybody's time, but to engage in stimulating conversations. I'm afraid now that if I continue reading posts, I'm going to either find something equally stupid or find I've already apologized and forgotten it. This just might make me go away. I'm sorry.
@Gracie: Don't worry about being confused or wasting people's time, we've all been there, such is the nature of this show. We post and reply on here because we love discussing it, helping others and being helped.
With that being said, here's MY take on the whole Sayid still being a candidate.
Well, the list only has Kwon, and only individuals SO FAR have been listed as candidates not couples (we also end up with what are the repercussions of having a couple as A SINGLE candidate?), so if we go by WHAT WE KNOW, then there is only one Kwon, making the 6 candidates mentioned by Jacob to Ilana:
Jack, Hurley, James, Kwon, +2
Kate is scratched in the cave but not in the lighthouse. And since Locke is dead, and Jacob was likely aware of such, one might substitue 4 for 51 leaving:
Kate, +1
When Jacob tells Ilana there are 6, Sayid has not been claimed. Ilana later mentions 6 candidates (not 6 people to protect). So if we take Sayid out, this means there is a new candidate the WE AS VIEWERS are not aware of.
From this reasoning, I say that Sayid, while claimed, remains on the candidacy list.
With Locke's death, the numbers went from 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 to 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, 51
Locke mentions that he "is short 3 people", potentially meaning 2+ Frank. Then this would result in Jack and Hurley, leaving Sun out.
He is already in possession of Kate, James, Sayid and Jin (4 candidates)
@Gracie: re: "Have had it."
I actually took it in a third way, kind of a mix of the two. In the "I've had it and I can't understand what you're saying, you'll need to clarify" type of statement.
So apology accepted, but it turns out it wasn't quite necessary.
--and I hope my previous post was somewhat clear, I just write what comes through my mind and try to clean it, sometimes it doesn't come through quite nicely--
Thank you Benny! You're very kind.
I read this post to Spouse because frankly, I couldn't get where you wanted me to go. I feel a little better now because he's as confused as I am. LOL Let's start with the numbers: Is there anything we've forgotten that could/would/did change the numbers we all know and love? Did something happen recently to suggest that the numbers could change? I don't recall anything, but I realize that the numbers HAVE to go with the final candidates, and I tend to think of these numbers, as well as 108, as The Seven Commandments, if you will. Whether we saw them or not, each of the ACTUAL final candidates must be a known number. Follow me here: Personally, I never saw Austen, but I believe I heard she was 51. I don't recall seeing her on the TV or in any Internet pictures that I have seen of number 51. I believe she was not seen at the Lighthouse. I also had heard of an interview that Cuse supposedly did saying the LACK OF AUSTEN was NOT an oversight. I can't say he did or didn't say that, but if he did, to me that eliminates Kate. Still with me? I have not seen Kate's name anywhere, AND supposedly she's not there to be seen so I didn't miss much. BUT I'm not buying that. I didn't see the interview myself, nor could I find it anywhere on YouTube or anywhere else (it's supposed to be there if you can find it!), and Kate has always been a major player since Day One. I want to keep her in, but I am completely unable to do so without reconciling her name with a number. I just contradicted myself, and I know it. That only makes sense when talking about Lost.
As I understand it, the candidates MUST have been physically touched at one point in time, whenever that was. According to my list that whole shebang includes Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Sayid, Sun, Jin and Hurley, matching my original list of eight. There may be others on the list (or another list), but the only one that matters is the one Ilana has in her head, and to me it MUST be made up of our losties. We both agree that Locke is eliminated if based on nothing else other than the fact that he's in the ground. It seems right here that the writers are wanting me to CHOSE a Kwon, which I don't want to do, although I often feel almost SHOVED in that direction. (So, I keep coming back to this list, plus one OF two non-candidates; either Frank (plane pilot) or the unknown as of yet pilot of the submarine. My current list is at eight with those last two.) Going back to candidates only: I can see a way, and I've posted it before, to get down to the right number, but I don't think anyone was happy with my theory. But I DO have one. Alas, YOU have another theory that includes only one Kwon and another somebody. I don't understand how you can know, or suspect, to eliminate a Kwon or why you would suppose to keep Jack and Hurley but disregard Sun specifically. (The show, without ever saying a word, seems so determined that you have to pick a Kwon that I just mentally don't want to do that anymore.) I am so deeply in thought right now, it's like meditation. I can get, with my own people, one of our losties left on the island to "babysit" MIB, but it's supposition basically and my personal feelings based on what I've heard and seen on the show. As of now, the rest of them are getting on the plane or sub, if they're not killed in the upcoming war. Leaving one MIB and one replacement for Jacob on the island. THEN the island is underwater, and once again, I'm Lost. I could do a whole nother post on my questions about how THAT is gonna work.
WV ostai: Opposite of please go?
P.S. TO BENNY OR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE A STAB:
We don't know of any reason that the numbers, as given in the beginning, would change at this very late date. The only way we could see that as REMOTELY possible would be if 4,8,15,16,23, and 42 are dead. THEN if a known player, such as Ilana or Richard or even Ben turns up at 108, then 108 MIGHT be or become the magic number.
H E L P !!
Can anyone tell me if something is wrong with Nikki's blog page. When I go there (Nik at Nite), the face of it is Monday, March 29. 2010. Her cover story, if that's what it's called, is: "I'm Coming to London! and Other Ramblings...
Obviously, Nik has posted since that time. I was just looking to see what was new, but if there's a problem, does SHE know it's there? I don't know how blogs work on the owner's end.
Benny: That thought you have about NOT using two Kwons goes with another one of mine in an offhanded sort of way.
Already ON the island, we have people who's biggest dream is to stay put. They don't want to leave. Of course, this is Bernard and Rose. Last we saw they also had Vincent.
IF somebody has to stay and doesn't want to (besides the MIB), it seems beyond cruel to FORCE them to stay when there is another person, or people, who would be happy to. BUT as far as I know, neither Rose nor Bernard have a number, and even if one did, what would that mean for the other? Also, neither of them to our knowledge was ever touched. Which at the end of the story will leave Rose, Bernard and Vincent exactly...........where?
Benny: Please do send me that follow up. I'm about to head to that big soft pillow on my bed where I shall immediately be pounced upon by three large cats and maybe one large Spouse. (A girl can hope!) I did go to the suggested links and saw the lighthouse pictures which were BTW the first pics anybody ever sent me that I could enlarge or turn the lighthouse wheel. The others I've seen were more stationary, meaning I could not look around beyond what was right under my nose. Since I didn't realize these were out there, I never went looking.
I've been to the page of names on Lostpedia. THAT was my second home before Nik at Nite remember? At one time I had even printed out that entire page of name after name in an all out effort to find some way to keep our heroes alive and find some reckless idiot to take their place. I couldn't find it. So just keep feeding me clues. Maybe before May 23rd, we'll have this whole puzzle all put together. (Not very damn likely!)
Goodnight!
wv: skinn: You did THAT to both of your knees?
Gimme another two minutes or so... I'll have it posted!
@Gracie: It turns out I've changed my mind from believing Jin is the candidate to not knowing, just hoping. I still believe there is only one Kwon candidate, but I don't suggest any strong evidence for any of them to be THE Kwon candidate (except for the Kwon name). So here's my reasoning on the candidates:
Let's start with the known candidates - touched and unscratched:
4- Locke
8- Reyes
15- Ford
16- Jarrah
23- Shephard
42- Kwon
51- Austen
(interestingly, Austen was scratched before MIB took the form of Locke, so HE must have eliminated her as a possibility early on)
Since we haven't been presented with a name representing a couple, I stand to assume that Kwon stands as a single candidate (Assumption 1) and that leaves ME with 7 listed candidates: the numbers + 51.
Since we know Locke to be dead, and we should assume Jacob was aware of that when he talked to Ilana, then the 6 candidates he mentions to Ilana, which Ilana later mentions on the island must be the same and exclude 4-Locke.
Also, since Kate's name was on the list that Jacob gave to Hurley (in the Ankh), I assume that Kate is a valid candidate, even though not one of the original numbers (Assumption 2).
This leaves me with 6 candidates and a single Kwon, with no specific yet on who that might be:
8- Reyes
15- Ford
16- Jarrah
23- Shephard
42- Kwon
51- Austen
These are the 6 candidates Jacob must be telling Ilana about, which Ilana later mentions. Using this list of six, and given that Locke did not scratch his name in the cave, I assume that Sayid remains a candidate until eliminated and not just 'claimed' (Assumption 3).
Locke tells Claire that Kate's name is no longer on the wall, Therefore, Locke would now be in possession of 2 candidates for sure:
15- Ford
16- Jarrah
and he would be certainly short of 2:
8- Reyes
23- Shephard
with Kwon hanging in the balance, and Austen not being considered by Locke.
Locke says he is short three people to get off the island. This could mean [1] three candidates (8, 23, 42) or, [2] two candidates and a pilot (8, 23, Frank).
Now 42 can have different values and implication with these two scenarios:
A] - With [1], Kwon is Jin, and he needs to get him back from Widmore;
B] - With [1], Kwon is Sun, and he does not consider Jin;
C] - With [1], Kwon is Sun, and he considers already having Jin;
D] - With [2], Kwon is Jin and Locke believes already having him.
But, we must also remember a few things about what Locke said on occasions:
1] he told Ford that he wasn't sure if it meant Jin or Sun (did not mention the possibility of both), this would suggest he is looking for BOTH Jin and Sun;
2] he also told Claire he needed everyone on the cave wall to get off the island, and that Kate was not on it, anymore - does this imply that Locke believes there are only 5 candidates left?
3] Locke tells Claire that Kate can help him get the three is shy of to get off the island.
From all of this: the candidates' list, Locke's not considering Kate, and Locke being uncertain about Kwon; I believe that Locke is looking for Jack, Hurley, and Sun. This obviously does not suggest who may be the Kwon in question, in what I believe, but if we consider that Kwon is Jin's name and that, given that Jacob possibly knew about the candidates before Jin and Sun's wedding, Jin may be the candidate... but it also could be that I just prefer Jin's character evolution throughout the show and I would rather want him to be the candidate.
@JS-the way you worded it, and my interpretation of it (which has been known to be kinda off) was that he wasn't seeing Charlie die in any of his visions, but he was. Also, when you said he didn't see Charlie drowning, I was thinking of when he drowned to save Claire (and when he drowned after being bashed against the rocks), and he does say "You turned off the yellow light, then you drowned...this time you have to die...". But like you said, it was all leading up to the big sacrifice.
word verif-gazedliz-looking at anyone (or anything, like a sailboat) named Elizabeth.
Gracie: Lost is about love, absolutely. That has to be a point the writers hoped to drive home. But isn't it also, and maybe equally, about loss?
I would say inevitably, because one of the cruelest realities of life is that love and loss are always inextricably tied together. Be it from loss of the initial euphoria of new love, the heart-rending, soul-shattering death of a someone who is so close as to be an inseparable part of yourself,or anything on the vast spectrum in between, love always means opening yourself up to loss and its attendant pain. And if something or someone is meaningless to you, if you have no love for it/them, then can you really 'lose' it in any meaningful sense?
So the title Lost necessarily refers not only to loss but to love as well. And to resolve the story, for our characters to stop being 'lost', they will need to find love.
@Gracie-I knew I had seen the name "Austen" at the lighthouse and I found it for you at the website below:
http://theloveumake.com/2010/02/24/lost-jacobs-candidates-the-numbers-e6x05-spoilers-hq-photos-the-lighthouse-hurley-jack/
Hope this helps!
@Crazyinlost - @JS-the way you worded it, and my interpretation of it (which has been known to be kinda off) was that he wasn't seeing Charlie die in any of his visions, but he was. Also, when you said he didn't see Charlie drowning, I was thinking of when he drowned to save Claire (and when he drowned after being bashed against the rocks), and he does say "You turned off the yellow light, then you drowned...this time you have to die...". But like you said, it was all leading up to the big sacrifice.
Yes, you are right, what I said I meant doesn’t really match what I originally said. And I was probably thinking that WE didn’t see Desmond see Charlie drown in a vision, but he did say what you say he did. Even though Desmond tried to prevent Charlie’s death by trying to go down into the Looking Glass instead of Charlie, Charlie knocks him out and swims down himself. They even briefly thought Charlie could complete his mission without having to die, but then Patchy happened, and for some reason Charlie decides to close the door with himself on the inside of that room instead of the pool area.
So, to be 95% clear on my original point (I doubt I’ll ever get to 100%), the resolution ends OUR VIEW of Desmond’s future visions, i.e. we do not see him have future visions of anyone after Charlie’s death, because the need for him to have future visions is complete. @Blam mentioned something last night about Desmond waking up next to Penny remembering that he had met Daniel and needed to go see Eloise Hawking, and we can argue on whether that was a past Desmond communicating to a future Desmond, or if that memory was just created due to time jumping and Desmond wakes up with it then because somehow that even just recently happened instead of 3 years prior. In any case, 2007/8 Desmond doesn’t have a future vision, he has a memory of something he didn’t have a memory of before.
This was to support the point that we have seen Desmond have several types of visions, which end once the situation is resolved:
1 – Past consciousness comes to future – The Constant – resolved when he calls Penny on Christmas Eve 2007.
2 – Future visions inform current – multiple, ending in “Through the Looking Glass” – resolved when Charlie dies
3 – Concurrent event expresses itself as a memory – Because You Left/Jughead – Resolved when he wakes up with memory of instructions from Daniel who was jumping through time – it was 2007 for Daniel, but 2004 for Desmond
4 – Still unsure of what consciousness does what, or how much each version of Desmond knows, as we have not yet seen resolution.
@Benny – I like your thinking on the remaining candidates – one small point of clarification (I hope) – Jacob tells Ilana about the SIX candidates after Locke has died off island, but before Sayid has been claimed. After Ilana’s conversation with Jacob in the hospital, she meets Sayid in a bar, seduces him, then does a crazy leg move on him (ironically) and somehow passes herself off as a bounty hunter with authority to get him onto a plane to Guam. His brain is still love fuzzy since he (and we) suspect it is kind of a strange coincidence, but don’t figure out that getting him on that plane is directly related to Jacob or the plan to get them all back to the island.
@JS: Indeed, and to me this is strong evidence (as with the cave name) that Sayid is one of the 6 pre-Ajira candidates and therefore one of the 6 post-Ajira candidates that Ilana mentions.
To those who e-mailed me, you'll just have to keep your panties on, cause I'm so close to something BIG with Lost (and Spouse is right there with me), that I can almost see how it has to end. I've also picked up pieces that I didn't see mentioned here before so this should be interesting. If they were here, and I missed them I apologize. But it's actually because of what Benny was saying last night, that I think I'm hitting in the ballpark. I'm NOT gonna just come out and say, but the big thing is among those listed below. You gotta go deep, and think about what you've seen and heard. Go big or stay at home. Or as Spouse says, "If you can't party with the people, get under the porch with the puppies."
1. Ilana is a key piece. Who is she? Where does she come from? How long did she know Jacob before we knew she knew Jacob? Obviously, she also knows about MIB. How old is she? Could they be related?
2. Right before he died, Jacob said "They're coming." Who did he mean? Ilana and the group with her? Widmore and the group with him? Somebody else we haven't seen yet? Something gathering that is already there but now coming? Also, and very important, Jacob knew they were coming, and those were his last words. If whomever coming is "good" or "bad", why would he tip his hand to the MIB? That moment is where MIB learns they are coming, so why would Jacob tip him off? Unless it didn't matter. But does it?
3. In a way, Desmond and Jin have switched positions. Jin worked for his father-in-law, and was the black side of a right-hand-man. Desmond works for the man who would have been his father-in-law, but he doesn't beat people up and/or kill them. The white side, if you will. A sort of flip there. (This one has not been all the way thought out, and we need to go back looking for other things. But I think I have enough to get you guys thinking about this.)
cont.
continuation
4. BENNY THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT. Anybody with complaints can blame Benny. I've been thinking so deeply about his final six, my head hurts. For a while I put myself into time out. I went back and watched the "selection" process where each of the original eight were touched. They were: Kate, Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Sayid, Sun, Jin, and Hurley. Don't eliminate anybody!! Just look at those names. Why are they different? Why are they the same? Anybody connected beyond the obvious? What puts them on the list? What makes anybody stand out from anybody else? Can anybody be grouped for anything? What happened to one or two (three?)people that didn't happen to the others? There are two people on this list who differ completely from all others in a significant way. And I'm not telling cause Nikki will rip my head off. BUT consider this:
5. The lighthouse. Let's just leave the cave lay there for a while, but if anybody can place the cave in these thoughts, please have at it. When Jack goes there and sees the house he grew up in, HE ASSUMES Jacob has always been watching him. Nobody ever said that. Not that we remember or can find. It was an assumption. Maybe just because Jacob can get inside Jacks head (because he touched him), maybe he sees Jack's history just like Jack would. Doesn't mean the same thing as Jacob always following him. So don't make that assumption. But there is a significant difference with two people that we do not have with the others.
6. Eloise. She is the answer. Or a very big part of it. She knows how all the pieces fit or are supposed to fit for the course correction to take place so SHE can have the son back that she killed. Maybe she doesn't give a rat's tinker what happens to everyone else as long as she gets Daniel back. She recognized Desmond. Charlie or Drive Shaft was cool with her because Charlie was already dead when Daniel got to the island. They never met (as far as I can recall). So she was good to go with that part. But once Des himself showed up, whoa. She's got to smooth this out and make it all right all the way around. Cause Daniel has met Desmond, and she knows all the background there including the "Constant" connection. She has to keep these two separate until....... I'm shutting up there.
7. Haven't figured this all the way yet either, but we started out with a Desmond who was miserable, but maybe he didn't even know to what extent. The conversation with Charlie in the bar comes first, and it's like Charlie is the prod, the initiator, if you will. His story about Claire ignites something within Desmond, but Des just can't quite catch it (don't I know this feeling), and maybe this "Rock Staritis Thing" is catchy, like a cold. Then the MRI and the pictures and video in his mind come forth of Penny, and Des is like OMG! Even still, he meets up with Daniel, and he still isn't sure what has taken place. Then Daniel tells his story. If Charlie was the initiator, Daniel is the slap in the face. And there is a look there, at the end, where Desmond knows, and I think, everything he knows is the violation. It goes directly against Eloise. Who is the wife of his boss. More thought or help needed here.
This is just a rough draft of where my head went. If you go back to the beginning of this season, there was an episode called "The Final Chapter", I think, where Ben does the vocals to bring everyone back up to date. You have to go back to that and LISTEN. The whole fate, choice, free will, destiny thing. And I think Desmond has got it, and knows exactly what to do with it. Don't assume. Take only what is fact or otherwise backed up.
Whatchathink?
This is for Ms. T. I can't say where it came from, but I caught it the other day, and it keeps hanging around. So I'm putting it out there.
S.
M.
I.
E.
R.
T.
=
"Smart Mind I Encountered Reading Thoughts?"
@Gracie: And there is a look there, at the end, where Desmond knows, and I think, everything he knows is the violation. It goes directly against Eloise. Who is the wife of his boss.
I think that this "violation", is (as I have already said) a violation of causality. Something that occurred in the other timeline is having a direct effect on Desmond's actions now. I do not think that it is the knowledge per se, but rather the fact that he is acting on that knowledge.
And Eloise...yes, I believe that she is a key here, but so is Widmore, whether you like it or not. He sent Desmond to her; he had to know that she wasn't really going to be angry about the Driveshaft thing. So he sent Des over there for a different reason. (I think someone else mentioned this way, way back.)
As to the rest: I think you should just come out and state your theory so we can all blow holes in it...
VW: cutwrie: a young child'd term for knives and forks and things.
@Gracie: "Smart Mind I Encountered Reading Thoughts?"
Aw shucks *blushes*. I love that. Of course it applies to so many other people on here more than me, but thanks for the thought. Hmmm...maybe I should go change my screen name... jk :P
@Rainier said: I do not think that it is the knowledge per se, but rather the fact that he is acting on that knowledge.
I said: Just having the knowledge is the violation, but actually acting on it could destroy the whole thing for Eloise.
Of course Eloise and Widmore are in this thing up to their eyeballs and beyond.
If I get my theories to all come together to one final scenerio, even if I can't make ALL make sense, and if it's okay with Nikki, I will put it here.
@S.M.I.E.R.T.
Your welcome, Dear. As I said, it's been hanging around, so I figured I'd make some use of it. Maybe it should be your user name? That is up to you!
@Gracie: Just having the knowledge is the violation, but actually acting on it could destroy the whole thing for Eloise.
OK - what she actually says is this: "someone has clearly affected the way you see things. This is a serious problem. It is, in fact, a violation. So whatever you're doing, whatever it is you think you're looking for, you need to stop looking for it." So I guess you could interpret "violation" either way. But I'm sticking with the actions being the violation, because if the knowledge does not result in anything, where is the violation?
She later says that he needs to quit looking because he is "not ready yet" We don't know yet what she means by this.
If you go back to "The Constant", the earliest contact that Daniel & Desmond have (at Oxford) involves a causality violation: Eloise runs the maze before she is taught to run it. But is her knowledge of the maze the violation, or her actually running it, or both?
Rainier
VW: ectlu - An ecologically correct dwelling for Eskimos.
@Rainier-"VW: ectlu - An ecologically correct dwelling for Eskimos."
hahahahahaha
word verif-mackrok-what your McDonalds hamburger tastes like after sitting under the salamander too long!
@Blam: "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride" is an old, oft-repeated (at least in my experience) aphorism — although, frankly, it's just the first part that gets uttered 99% of the time.
Or, as Moe said on "The Simpsons" last night, "if wishes were horses, I'd be eating horse meat!"
Plus it has some immortal throwaway lines and moments, which Moore excels at as much as the big-picture stuff.
"Burn!" being another great one, along with the aforementioned "clean thoughts, chum."
I think that in one shot it could've been a wedding ring, in another it could've been a metal picture frame with long hair and stubble, and in another it could've been a wooden picture frame with short hair, no stubble, and somebody accidentally standing in the background... and they wouldn't have caught any of it because they were too busy trying to convince us that it was earth-shatteringly important to call the wedding ring Jeremy Bentham.
That, my friend, was brilliantly hilarious.
@Gracie Teebore: although that should have been completely unnecessary, you are a Doll for having taken the time to do so.
Don't mention it; happy to help! :)
If wishes were horses, beggars would ride or, in the immortal words of Jayne from Firefly - "If wishes were horses, we'd be eating steak"
Just watched that last night and I was laughing thinking of the conversation over here :)
And Teebore gave the perfect segue for me to throw it out here :)
VW: rampre - to go up the ramp again backwards
@S.M.I.E.R.T:
"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride or, in the immortal words of Jayne from Firefly - "If wishes were horses, we'd be eating steak"
Me: What? Are there like a million of these out there? In all honesty the only one I've ever heard of is the "If wishes were a**holes" one. Beyond that, you've all lost me in the land of "Information I've Never Known."
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